General Debate 28 July 2010

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Yvette

First.

New Zealand First.

“Speculation is rife that NZ First leader Winston Peters and his former adviser Michael Laws are to team up again as part of a “relaunch” of the party this year.” – stuff.co.nz
Possible? Certainly!
to repeat from the other day –
“You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” – George W Bush

There may be a few minor hurdles.
Did Winston pay back the $ 158,000? Who can remember?
And do we remember that he campaigned saying he would remain on the cross benches outside a coalition, and that many would have voted for him on this point, and they were betrayed in that respect.

“Asked if he had approached Mr Laws to stand for NZ First, Mr Peters said candidate selection was a party matter. He was not being evasive, he said, but it was not for him to release names. “I have most certainly not approached anyone per se.”
Asked if he had approached anyone yet, he said: “I have not approached anyone in the way you have couched that question.”
However, he expected “a good number” of former NZ First MPs would stand again for the party next year.
The party “was never not launched, mate. We have just celebrated our 17th birthday.
“All you need to know is that the platform for this party has been seriously laid out with some real hard graft work around the country over the last few months and it shows.”
“We are certain there is going to be an election by July 2011, so we are not waiting around for a November election.”
He would not say what seat he would contest. “All of those things will be revealed as time goes by.”

Alllllllllllreadyyyyyyy! “All of those things will be revealed as time goes by” Merde!
“I have not approached anyone in the way you have couched that question.” Fuck, not another day like Thursday!!
God help us – may the First really be last.
“The party ‘was never not launched, mate’ ” – yeah ! otherwise you’d have to call the bloody thing New Zealand Second.
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July 28, 2010 8:01am
Pete George

Redbaiter: You were duped by the journolisters you dickwad.
Tom: I may as well finish the day as I started it on GD, explaining to Pete how he’s part of the problem.
WebWrat: Is Pete George really as thick as he seems?

It seems that we are being told that “the left” (99% of people are to the left of RB) is part of a conspiracy to take over the media, to take over education, and to take over the world. And also that “the left” are being duped into being a part of the problem.

I’m told I’m unable to comprehend how media, infiltrated by “the left”, is deliberately brainwashing “the left”.
But I’m not too thick to know that much of the media are businesses competing for market share, driven by owners and shareholders and the needs of advertisers. There seems to be more marketing in “the news” than news.

I’m told that I can’t see that education is run by socialists intent on brainwashing all the kids (and adults at uni).
But I’m not too thick to know that the education sector in NZ earns $2b p.a. in foreign earnings.

I’m told that I’m oblivious to the great socialist plot to achieve one world government. Apparently apart from a few brave “freedom fighters” we are all duped, brainwashed pawns in a grand communist conspiracy.

Am I too thick to see how the liquor industry, the tobacco industry, the cosmetic industry, the fast food industry, the apparel industry, the entertainment industry, the arms industry, the electronic industry and the finance industry are so controlled by the socialists that they are also pawns, brainwashing the ignorant left into buying far more than they need, buying things that are bad for them and killing them, holding them by the balls of debt?

Who can comprehend the difference between communism and consumerism?
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July 28, 2010 8:06am
MikeNZ

Really good article on how badly the UN is broke and needs replacing.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/23/iran-united-nations-terrorism-opinions-columnists-claudia-rosett_2.html

In sum, while it rarely gets much attention, there’s a strong Iranian tang to the U.N. alphabet soup. This is a bizarre and alarming scene, given an Iranian regime that continues to indulge in the execution of juveniles and homosexuals; the stoning and mandatory veiling of women; the jailing, torture and murder of democratic dissidents; the spread and support of terrorist groups not only in the Middle East, but around the globe; and the sanctions-busting pursuit of nuclear weapons and delivery systems.

At the very least Iran and others in her position should have all their posts and chairmanships frozen and be denied observer status at all bodies until they comply.
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July 28, 2010 8:12am
Rodders

Re Winston First, Peters and Michael Laws getting together would be as successful as the remarriage of Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor (that lasted less than a year.) At the time of NZ First’s 10th anniversary, Laws (on TVNZ) described Peters as “half bluster and half bullshit”. Enough said!
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July 28, 2010 8:14am
Brian Smaller

I am about to head off to watch two awesome 1st XV games. Wanganui Collegiate v Christ’s College and Wellington Coll v Nelson Boys.

What are the rest of you up to today?
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July 28, 2010 8:26am
MikeNZ

working then meal out.
Where are they being played?
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July 28, 2010 8:29am
Murray

The only Laws and Peters need to complete a three ring circus is one more asshole.
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July 28, 2010 8:33am
Put it away

Right about now Peters is calling Telecom to hire a phone booth for the conference.
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July 28, 2010 8:49am
Banana Llama

Pete George.

Why are you asking yourself questions in a post? perhaps stating the philosophy by which you live your life would allow people to discuss those talking points with you based on their philosophy.
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July 28, 2010 8:49am
Dirty Rat

A renowned Sickness Welfare Beneficiary is doing boxing lessons for an upcoming court case.

Can we add Bouncer to the long list of jobs he is capable of ?
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July 28, 2010 8:53am
starboard

Police have found a man wanted in connection with non-accidental injuries inflicted on a 6-month-old child.
Thirty-year-old James Allan Hemana, also known as James Sylva, had been missing since his girlfriend’s baby, Cezar Taylor, was taken to hospital with severe head injuries on Friday morning.
Constable Clare Jackson said Hemana had beeen found at a Te Awamutu home after police executed search warrants in the Waikato town early this morning.
“Cezar’s family have been advised that Hemana has been found and are thankful to the police and public,” Ms Jackson said.
She said police were also speaking to three women from the Te Awamutu address.

..another maori warrior baby basher…and 3 women hiding him…what a race…what shitbags.
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July 28, 2010 8:59am
thedavincimode

Indeed Starboard. Give that man a vote!!
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July 28, 2010 9:01am
Manolo

I suspect a number of voters will support the venal Peters and angry Laws. They would be mainly the elderly and some disappointed National Party folk. As P.T. Barnum said: “A sucker is born every minute”.

Difficult, but not impossible for NZF to win a seat. If that happens, it will be curtains for NZ.
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July 28, 2010 9:04am
Put it away

Pete that is one of the most illogical things you’ve ever come up with, and that’s a pretty big call. While the management and beancounters of media and education usually have a grasp of the realities of functioning as a business ( especially if the goverment says “no more funding, if you want more money, get yourself some foreign students”) , the majority of “journalists”, teachers , and lecturers are a left wing echo chamber and are in those jobs primarily to push their political views ( and because they can’t get any other job). I can’t say I’ve ever had a tobacco, alcohol, fast food, apparel company etc push their politics on me when all I want is just the product and service I’ve paid for.
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July 28, 2010 9:06am
Manolo

“another maori warrior baby basher…and 3 women hiding him…what a race…what shitbags.”

But the aging Pita Sharples, the racist Maori Party leader, had his priorities right yesterday when he said “the full force of the law should come on small shops selling alcohol to minors”.

Who is the shitbag?
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July 28, 2010 9:07am
Manolo

Interesting article on Iran’s growing influence at UN level:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/23/iran-united-nations-terrorism-opinions-columnists-claudia-rosett_2.html
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July 28, 2010 9:09am
jcuknz

A Turkish man emmigrates to the United States and has a son who is ‘the first american in our family’. Son grows up and with a medical carear in view offers to help the sick in Gaza. Unfortunately he gets in the way of a burst of bullets on a Turkish ship in international waters. His father thinks the Israeli commandos were provoked by the son having a video camera. But of course the media ignores him, they have a foreign name so there is no media outrage, step by step, second by second retracing of the event.
It is rather sad that we are interested in ‘like’ and so disinterested in ‘different’.
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July 28, 2010 9:21am
nickb

Was reading this story today:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3963867/11b-student-loan-debt-a-disaster-says-Key

I have never found a quote which sums up the National Party so well:

Tertiary Education Minister Steven Joyce has admitted it was a “political call” for National to back interest-free student loans during the 2008 election and Mr Key, in Opposition, described the policy as irresponsible.

Mr Key said yesterday that the policy was “politically charged” so it would stay. “But economically, it doesn’t really stack up.”
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July 28, 2010 9:23am
Pete George

PIA, a lot is said about adverse influence from education and the media, and usually socialism is blamed. The negative effects of the marketing machine(s) on society seems to be overlooked or ignored.

The impact on society of consumerism is probably far greater than communism, yet most of the scaremonger warnings are against communism. Deliberately or not we are being warned in the wrong direction, while succumbing to the excesses of something else.

Communism as a whole state philosophy has been discredited and proven unworkable, while consumerism carries on shaping society, for better and for worse. The push for growth, in markets and economies, means we get “encouraged” into buying more and more of what we don’t really need, and many of us cannot afford. Hence the chains of credit.

We are warned to keep fearing what might be under the bed, while we get swamped with more and more blankets.
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July 28, 2010 9:40am
Redbaiter

Quite a good attempt (by Denis Prager) at explaining the left’s irrational and obsessive hatred of Conservatives-

http://article.nationalreview.com/438670/why-the-left-hates-conservatives/dennis-prager
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July 28, 2010 9:41am
Redbaiter

“while consumerism carries on shaping society”

Yep, I think somewhere in Antarctica they’ve got barbed wire fences and watch towers already built to “encourage” the latest intake of citizens to spend spend spend. I hear they’re looking for watchtower guards Pete. You should submit an application. Fucking loon.
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July 28, 2010 9:45am
Pete George

RB, why do you keep going on about “the left’s” supposed hatred of conservatives? You seem to be the one with an obsession? Is it a part of your victim mentality? You seem to like presenting yourself as the underdog fighter for “freedom”, but to keep feeling like an underdog you have to keep inventing a snarling enemy.

Another tactic you read about on the net? The “they hate us” syndrome seems to be commonly used in the US.
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July 28, 2010 9:57am
Manolo

Nickb, thank you for the link on Key’s comments re: student loans.

It makes incredible reading when one realises the duplicitous nature of this lying politician (Janus would be proud). Neville Key should be ashamed of himself for putting political expediency before country.

Another “pearl of wisdom” from this spineless, disgraceful PM.
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July 28, 2010 9:58am
jinpy

Exactly Pete, the irony of commentators here submitting links about things ‘hidden’ from the public that when you search on them run indefinitely on a Google search, all quoting the same line…
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July 28, 2010 10:06am
RKBee

I’m looking forward to the “half bluster and half bullshit party” of Winston Peters and Michael Laws…
It will enhance Nationals vote.
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July 28, 2010 10:10am
Redbaiter

“RB, why do you keep going on about “the left’s” supposed hatred of conservatives?”

Sure Pete, its all in my imagination, as this thread demonstrates so well-

http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz/2010/07/tv3-news-returns-to-the-trough/comment-page-1/#comment-7746

Even Chris Trotter has chimed in with words of good will now.
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July 28, 2010 10:15am
thedavincimode

Then I guess mister ‘bater that you’ve never been in a supermarket and had to put up with the carry on that accompanies mothers trying to get their brats past the sweet/junk “food”/ and sugar laden soft drinks that are displayed throughout and once more at the check out. You’ve never seen parents use junk food and 2 litre bottles of coke, or television cartoons as a substitute for parenting, and you’ve never encountered parents that piss money away on booze and smokes or shit food like KFC or crispy bacony barbecuey flavoured shit husks at a cost to their kids. You’ve heard nothing of the i-Phone and i-Pad that have generated so much pointless global “interest”.

It wasn’t clear, but this seems to be the point that PG is trying to make; namely that consumerism tends to be equated with capitalism, yet it has the capacity to detrimentally affect social behaviour and standards. You might have missed it being, as you are, made of much sterner stuff and impervious to the seductive charms of consumerism and, no doubt, a 21st century parenting role model.

But the reality is that not everyone has your incisive intellect, great strength of character and unassailable claim on right and wrong. Whether such folk are weak-kneed lilly-livered losers and deserve the consequences (your likely considered response) isn’t the point. The point is that they ARE influenced. How can this be? Are the pinkos putting drugs in the meusli, like the water and the bread? Or is it just that only the great ‘bater has discovered the true path?
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July 28, 2010 10:26am
Redbaiter

MikeNZ- good question you have asked on that thread. That Mr. Edwards refuses to even acknowledge it suggests we may be on to something.
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July 28, 2010 10:52am
RightNow

The reality is that the rise of debt-fuelled consumerism and other maladies (binge drinking culture, intergenerational welfare dependency etc) has been brought about by the erosion of principles, values and morals and the ascension of the state as the great benefactor.

Lindsay Mitchell is well worth reading for this:
http://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.com/2010/07/un-rapporteur-listen-up.html

“This then is where the state has played a damning role by supporting the alienation of Maori men from whanau. It does this through the benefit system and through the legal system (family court and CYF). The odds are stacked against too many a Maori boy from birth. Consider that;

1/ He will be raised on welfare in a workless household
2/ Most of the male role models he is exposed to are disaffected
3/ Most of the female role models he is exposed lack the capacity to ‘mother’ in the full sense of the word (which is possibly why so many Maori males have relationships with much older women – looking for the mother figure they never had.)
4/ He is stereotyped (rightly or wrongly) by Pakeha institutions
5/ He is failed by (or he fails – take your pick) the education system thus subjecting himself to a life of menial work which does not provide enough money to compete with the DPB.
6/ He will father children very young also subjecting himself to a life of penury being bled dry by the child support system.
7/ Crime becomes the only avenue through which he can make some real money and prove his machismo.
8/ He will grow up in an environment where going to prison is part of the wallpaper.

So forget the fading historic wrongs – land theft and racial exclusion. They are being, or have been righted. And I support that process in so much as the state should right its own wrong-doings.”
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July 28, 2010 10:54am
Pete George

Sure Pete, its all in my imagination, as this thread demonstrates so well-

We know what your imagination is like. The only expression of hate in that thread is:

“Unfortunately he won’t get tired. He’s been doing this for years and years. Here’s a typical quote from 2005: “You’re a liar. Get off this group with your obsessive hate driven stalking and your obvious fabrications you sad retarded loser.”

Everything else was more along the lines of:

It’s as if, he’s barged into a a formal dinner party, sat himself down at the splendidly-layed-out dining table, and in the midst of polite company, chomps his food and talks — feverishly — whilst waving his dinner knife around in wild gesticulations, spraying spittle and foodbits on to the startled dinner guests. Worse, still, he’s belching and farting ‘n’ carrying-on, like, no one notices.

You’re the one who keeps expressing hate and then claims to be the victim. That sums you up really. You have ranted for so long you have become what you rant, the mirror just transposes left to right.
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July 28, 2010 10:57am
MikeNZ

Red
It is either because he considers it to be a non question
there isn’t one
or there is and he doesn’t want to discuss it with you.

It is not without the bounds of possibility that if in the USA (which is the size of 50 countries and has 300 million people) that 400 odd people who got together electronically to discuss their field and massaging public opinion for political ends can do it.
Why not here with maybe 40 odd.

Personally I can’t understand how they got away with it for so long and i don’t think our environment is as polorised as theirs.
But I could be wrong having read what I have at Red Alert and BE in this past week.
It certainly does point to a mindset.

That article from Dennis Prager was quite correct I’d say, I just wish they’d have a “print ” button.
http://article.nationalreview.com/438670/why-the-left-hates-conservatives/dennis-prager
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July 28, 2010 10:59am
Redbaiter

“I just wish they’d have a “print ” button.”

Near the top left hand side. There you go-

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZjA3YTI0ZTJjZTdlZDk4Mzc1NGVlMjUzZjA4YTMzZWE=
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July 28, 2010 11:04am
krazykiwi

I see NZ’s only living fossil Jimbo Anderson is fizzing …

A fracas over director fees for Christchurch councillors has erupted, with mayoral candidate Jim Anderton calling for them to give up the $300,000 they collectively pocket.

Presumably he’s upset because others are supplementing their income more comprehensively by working than he can with his snout and all 4 trotters in the public trough.
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July 28, 2010 11:04am
MikeNZ

I’d add a fourth to Dennis’s Lists.

Pride -They think they know better and consider even one else fools compared to them.

First, the Left thinks the Right is evil.
Second, when you don’t confront real evil, you hate those who do
Third, the Left’s utopian vision is prevented only by the Right
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July 28, 2010 11:06am
Pete George

That Mr. Edwards refuses to even acknowledge it suggests we may be on to something.

This is today’s joke?

You hijacked a topic thinking you could trick Edwards into admitting there was a great left wing NZ journalism plot to dupe the plebs. And now you think that not refuting something unknown is proof of yet another conspiracy?

He didn’t say John Key wasn’t born in Kenya either, maybe there is something to that one. And he didn’t refute the rumour that Palin is coming here for a cup of tea. Plenty to get your teeth into.
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July 28, 2010 11:06am
MikeNZ

Cheers, I was looking at the top and bottom of the article.
I like to read articles later in my day and make notes on the paper.
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July 28, 2010 11:07am
Redbaiter

“They think they know better and consider even one else fools compared to them.”

So right. Read the Davincimode at 10:26 for an excellent example of that arrogance. I was going to ask him to give me the name of a ‘poor fool’ type person he thinks would fit the description he provides in his third paragraph, but then I thought- what is the use?
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July 28, 2010 11:11am
MikeNZ

You might like this Red.
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZGU0N2Y4MWFmM2ViMGY4NjgwZjRhOTU5ZjdkMjNlYjc=

And as for America wielding less power in the world, the American Left considers that to be a positive development. They think it is the world community as embodied in the United Nations that should wield power throughout the world, not an “overstretched,” “imperialist,” and “militarist” United States.

I used to believe that the Left and the Right had similar goals for America, that they just differed in the means they wanted to use to get there. I was mistaken. The Left has a very different vision of America than those who hold to America’s founding values, most especially individualism and small government. Their vision is one in which a once-in-a-lifetime chance to establish a giant welfare state dominated by the Left is worth any price — even America’s steep financial decline.

I suspect that this is the deep wish of all the left everywhere because it means people are beholden to them and they can then control them better, the opposite of free.

This is the real wickedness of the left. They are Facists at heart.
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July 28, 2010 11:12am
Redbaiter

All Mr. Edwards would need to say is “To my knowledge there is no such list”, and the matter would be closed. Why would he not do that?
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July 28, 2010 11:13am
krazykiwi

@nickb 9:23. I saw the same story, and completely agree with you. National doing what’s best for them, not what’s best for the country.

On a student-loan related matter, I heard recently that StudyLink employs 1000 people. I suggest the all propose how to run that organisation on 100 staff, and the best 100 proposal writers get to keep their jobs.
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July 28, 2010 11:13am
jinpy

MikeNZ,

Not much of an argument is it? The article conflates two completely separate issues: US imperialism and the individualism/small govt and makes no attempt to connect them. You don’t spot the irony that the right supports enormous spending on wars and interventions oversees all the while calling for small govt?
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July 28, 2010 11:21am
RightNow

Chris Hipkins does a Breitbart at Red Alert
http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2010/07/28/judith-collins-blame-maori/#comments

“GUYON: …how can it be that we lock up people at double the rate of France?

JUDITH: Well what we have for instance is we have say 15% of the population Maori…

The Maori Party must be so proud every time they vote to prop up Judith Collins and her National government mates.”

A fuller excerpt is posted by Ben, showing up the selective editing. I wonder how long before the post is quietly removed?
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July 28, 2010 11:25am
thedavincimode

“… but then I thought …”

Progress. Baby steps mister ‘bater – you’ll get there eventually.
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July 28, 2010 11:26am
krazykiwi

@RightNow – Ben’s comment is here.

JUDITH Well what we have for instance is we have say 15% of the population Maori, we have 51% of our prison population’s Maori. That’s a shocking statistic. It’s also true for other countries, for instance Australia, there are some parts of Australia where they have 3% of the population is Aboriginal but 30% of the prison population is.

GUYON So that’s the difference?

JUDITH I think the fact is, is that when we have a quite significant group of people who unfortunately often feel that they are not part of the system, not part of the social connections that the rest of us have, there is more of a likelihood towards crime.

GUYON So you seem to be saying that if it weren’t for the Maori population, then we would be similar to those other countries, because that’s the explanation you’ve offered me.

JUDITH No, the explanation is, is that when we have more crime, particularly violent crime, we will have people imprisoned, and you know we’ve made big roads over the last 20, 30 years, when it comes to for instance, family violence.
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July 28, 2010 11:27am
Nefarious

When KFC, Harvey Norman, Benson and Hedges and Lion Breweries forcibly relieve me of 30 grand a year in order to further their agenda and force their services upon society then I will start blaming consumerism.

Until such time as the state gets it’s filthy fingers out of my wallet then socialism is firmly in the frame.

Got to laugh at those knobjockeys on Brian Edward’s blog, hands in the fuckin lolly jar yet professing their innocence. Pathetic.
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July 28, 2010 11:27am
MikeNZ

Red
No 1 as he considers it a non question and of course rudeness as he didn’t consider you worthy of a reply.
he is a progressive as you know.

Another illuminating article.
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=NDI2ZDA2ZDQyNmQzYzNlNTVhOTc1ODdmMDIyMDFlYzg=
with them one that sparked it.
http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2010/first_glenn_beck_now_george_will_33476

Whilst these are primarily about the US and their travails culturally for the heart of their nation.
The notion that they have gone wrong in going away from the republic (with it’s protections) that the founders intended incrementally towards a Euro style progressivism and the control and authoritarianism that that entails.

I would prefer our provinces to hold sway over the National Government with it only being responsible to Nationwide Issues such as Defence, Diplomacy, RnD and National standards where big sums are involved as is the jurisdiction.

There is no reason Fire, Police, Ambulance, Teaching, Health couldn’t be on a Provincial basis with national standards to guide operating.
The thing to avoid is centralisation of power as America was originally designed to be with the State Govts having control over the Central Govt.

That the National Govt received it’s monies from the Provincial Govts and the National Parliament would consist of representatives from the Provisional Govts on a rotation would protect us from the Statism and elitism that is becoming more evident in our daily discourse.

Switzerland has it’s canton system that works very well and they are in a beniegn environment just like us, even being an Island like us with their mountain ranges 🙂

I don’t see the progressive takeover that Red refers to as being good for the individual Kiwi in our increasingly centralised state.
Progressives want control not freedom, we allow that at our peril.
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July 28, 2010 11:32am
Redbaiter

“You don’t spot the irony that the right supports enormous spending on wars and interventions oversees all the while calling for small govt?”

How come every time you commies use the word irony, you use it in a completely incorrect context. I’ll tell you why. In the socialist immersion process termed the education system, you were only superficially educated but well indoctrinated. English and history took fifth place to ensuring your head was full of leftist bullshit.

If you knew anything of history, or anything of what the right wants, or knew anything of what the US constitution specifies, you would be embarrassed to use the word irony in the context you have used it above. You sad ignoramus. You’re so fouled intellectually and so deeply ignorant of reality, you’re not even worth explaining the truth to.
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July 28, 2010 11:32am
MikeNZ

I watched that interview Krazy and didn’t like the whole play of Guyon.
He seemed to just wanting to bag her and not actually talk through the issues as they are complex.
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July 28, 2010 11:34am
jinpy

the irony is that the right pushes a small govt agenda all the while not seeming to notice the huge amounts of taxpayer dollars spent on overseas wars — what’s difficult about it?

OK I admit, it may be pushing into Alanis Morrisette ‘ironic’ but it’s not a difficult concept to understand. Why don’t you address it instead of attempting to bully. “…Not even worth explaining the truth to” — classic, you mean you can’t explain it.
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July 28, 2010 11:40am
Redbaiter

“classic, you mean you can’t explain it.”

No, I mean I’ve got better things to do than educate politically one dimensional leftist robots and ignorant trolls. Go away.
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July 28, 2010 11:44am
Redbaiter

“He seemed to just wanting to bag her and not actually talk through the issues as they are complex.”

Probably sorted out the strategy beforehand on Journolist NZ.
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July 28, 2010 11:45am
Fletch

Tip of the day:

Handy script HERE if you hate how the new Google Image Search works, and want to get it back to how it used to be. is working for me perfectly using Chrome browser.
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July 28, 2010 11:48am
Pete George

I don’t see how setting up a lot of small provincial governments is going to reduce overall bureaucracy and size total size of governments. They have tried to provincialise health and that hasn’t been a raging success, they are tending back towards consolidation. And they are super sizing Auckland, but yet to see how successful that is.

Switzerland is quite different to NZ (and not without it’s own problems). It already had a regional system of governance in place when they changed to democracy.
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July 28, 2010 11:51am
Pete George

“classic, you mean you can’t explain it.”

No, I mean I’ve got better things to do than educate politically one dimensional leftist robots and ignorant trolls. Go away.

Maybe Brian Edwards had better things to do than try and work out your convoluted posts. You were very polite there, but didn’t make any more sense.

Journolist NZ, haha, you’ve really cracked a big one there. They’re probably scheming right now about how to silence you.
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July 28, 2010 11:53am
RightNow

jinpy, I don’t think you can really attribute the right as supporting massive spending on overseas wars. Which wars?
I have to assume you’re talking about Iraq and Afghanistan.
It’s worth noting that under both Labour and National we have sent personnel to Afghanistan.
It’s also worth noting that in the US the Democrats voted to support wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that they also voted for the Patriot Act.
It’s also worth questioning whether Obama will support military action against Iran if they continue their nuclear program?
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July 28, 2010 11:54am
Redbaiter

“I don’t see how setting up a lot of small provincial governments is going to reduce overall bureaucracy and size total size of governments. ”

Nobody would expect you to see it Pete. It takes a bit of intelligence and imagination to understand that state governments do not mean more government, just de-centralisation of power. And just by means of that de-centralisation, it makes it easier to start the long task of GETTING YOU DUMBARSED COMMIE FUCKERS OUT OF OUR FUCKING LIVES.
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July 28, 2010 11:54am
Pete George

Unless the provinces are full of DUMBARSED COMMIE FUCKERS who have been brainwashed by the media, schools, universities and Brian Edwards. You can’t fight for freedom everywhere at once.
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July 28, 2010 11:59am
Redbaiter

Decentralisation of education would kneecap the left.

“You were very polite there, but didn’t make any more sense.”

Saying you don’t understand what I write Pete is like saying the sea is a big wet thing.
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July 28, 2010 12:01pm
Pete George

Yes, they would suddenly be deprogrammed and compliant to the old masters of chalk and cane. We should take everything back a hundred years – we could always hope that Australia take themselves back 110 years.

Saying you don’t understand what I write Pete is like saying the sea is a big wet thing.

Maybe you are the big wet thing.
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July 28, 2010 12:07pm
jinpy

RightNow,

Yes, but for the third time my argument is that the right chooses not to look at the massive amounts of taxpayer dollars spent on wars while otherwise purporting small govt.

A good point though that US wars are supported by both the right and left. I’m not an Obama/Democrat idoliser and have no doubt that the US (like any world power) will continue to use its might for any perceived self-advantage as always, all while spreading ‘democracy’ around the world of course.

Here’s an example of some of the gains that can be made by individuals in the right places and why there is a logical argument for the existence of a military/industrial complex in the US that holds considerable power.

US can’t account for Iraq’s $9.1b
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/3964848/US-can-t-account-for-Iraqs-9-1b

RedBaiter scurried away I noticed,…
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July 28, 2010 12:22pm
Redbaiter

“RedBaiter scurried away I noticed,…”

I don’t have any interest in helping you compensate for your education deficiencies. I repeat, if you had any real knowledge of politics you wouldn’t be saying the things you do. You’re a foolish uneducated troll whose most effective attribute is your ability to bore me. EOS.
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July 28, 2010 12:27pm
jinpy

yet you spend all this time abusing me. In all those posts you could have at least provided me with at least one argument to chew over, surely?
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July 28, 2010 12:42pm
Pete George

That’s his way Jinpy, he rarely tries to debate or explain, he tries to cover his inability to do this coherently by bluster and bullshit. Repeatedly. And then he complains about his time being wasted. And claims to have some higher understanding of how the world works, and just wants everyone to comply without question. He may be a priest or pastor or something.

Re the right wing desire to have small governments and big wars, possibly they think the country can profit from the wars in the long run. Many US companies profit from wars anyway, maybe they care about their own bottom line and are not worried about the country going down the gurgler, or coming home in body bags.
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July 28, 2010 1:04pm
MikeNZ

Jnby
I see your point in that the monies spent on the military and weapons are colossal and if rightly just a days military spending was used each month on different global problems, many things would get done.

Shit I’d like to see a two tier prison system with proper classrooms/tradeschool and addiction/pschy services for those who we can save and rehab.

So
How about we stop all monies and aid to any non democracy or any organisation that benefits any non democracy?
I mean we are a liberal democracy and what we have is the best freedom expression of living on the planet, No?

So it makes sense that we would want this for other people too, yes?

Similarly it makes sense that we have finite resources and we want to use those resources in the best way possible both for our own people and to maximise the effect of our limited resources?

How much money do you think we (NZ) spend on non democracies in the form of Aid and monies to organisations that benefit non democracies?
What places would we be able to save money in this way?
What do you think would be the global savings?
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July 28, 2010 1:10pm
RightNow

Jinpy, I don’t believe here in NZ that we’ve spent a lot of money on wars, which is why perhaps I wasn’t addressing exactly what you were purporting (the right chooses not to look at the massive amounts of taxpayer dollars spent on wars while otherwise purporting small govt). I have never agreed with the invasion of Iraq, for the record.

I do firmly believe that less government is the key to getting NZ on the best path.
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July 28, 2010 1:17pm
Put it away

Jinpy you are imagining a contradiction where this is none. Defence is one of the handful of legitimate roles for a government. Like the Police. Flower arranging courses, for example, are not.
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July 28, 2010 1:27pm
Pete George

PIA, defence is quite different to attack. Defence is essential, attack is optional – and expensive.
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July 28, 2010 1:55pm
jinpy

RN Well, I can see why NZ might support US, Aus in Iraq etc. — it makes sense from a regional security point of view, but I’m glad we haven’t put too much into it.
PIA — there’s different degrees of defence, active aggresion vs defending attacks on your own soil. Surely the right would be looking for small defense as part of small govt (enough to do the job but not spending trillions on unwinnable battles overseas)
MNZ — like the idea of well funded and properly administered prison rehab programmes. I think aid is a much better way to encourage democracy. I’m not set in stone about the possibility of using military for positive aims but I think on the whole that US military intervention is primarily used to benefit the US rather than some ‘democratic’ ideal, given that they have previously intervened in countries that have actually had democracies. There are terrible regimes all around the world though and part of me thinks there should be intervention in certain cases but so hard to force a country into modernity, and if you kill lots of civilians along the way, you’re not really winning are you, especially if some equivalent regime returns to power after you leave.
I personally think pG has it right — a mixture of a perceived strategic benefit like access to oil, having a friendly regime to trade with, along with personal greed motives, ie the contractors, corporates, arms companies, govt agents that make huge amounts of money off war. There is the ultimate imperative of defense but any rational country would realise that spreading yourself too thin and overspending might not be in your own long-term interests. And then there’s the genuine paranoia, righteous cause lobby, and the need to have an enemy (reds under the bed), which now seems to be directed towards anything muslim.
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July 28, 2010 2:04pm
Colonel Masters

More unintelligible rubbish from the Royal New Zealand Herald:

Pair who assault accused cop in court

Of what was the cop (or police officer, if you rather) accused?
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July 28, 2010 2:27pm
Manolo

“The wage gap between New Zealand and Australian workers has widened by $40 to $580 a week since National came to power in late 2008 promising to address the income gap.

Australia’s ordinary average wage rose from A$1165 to A$1243 while New Zealand’s went from NZ$891 to NZ$947. On yesterday’s currency rates, the gap widened from $540 a week in December 2008 to $580 in March this year.”

The slide continues. Thank you, Neville Key.
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July 28, 2010 2:36pm
slightlyrighty

Does the income figure for the aussie worker include the one off $1000 stimulus package payment that Rudd rolled out?

and let’s not forget, that no government has the power to just wave a magic wand and undo 9 years of poor economic decisions designed to look good on paper without actually increasing wealth. The closing a wage gap that has occured over 9 years will not be fixed in 18 months without some sort of economic miracle.
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July 28, 2010 3:35pm
Kris K

ACHTUNG! – Lucia Maria and MikeNZ.

I have just finished responding to your comments to me from Monday’s [26th July, 2010] General Debate.

Here is the link to my first comment addressed to Lucia:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/07/general_debate_26_july_2010.html#comment-722812

My comment to you, Mike, follows the one to Lucia.
Much of my comment to Mike pertains to Roman Catholic teaching and belief, and so I would encourage you to read that as well, Lucia.

PS Others are welcome to have a read, obviously, and I would appreciate the critiquing of other mature Christians from a biblical perspective.
I didn’t want to clutter today’s GD with religious content, hence my commenting back on Monday’s GD. Please restrict any comments to there.
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July 28, 2010 4:15pm
jcuknz

Pete 9.40 …. nicely put … which naturally attracts the same old foolish reteric from RB … but it keeps the site active and lolly coming in for David .. a useful safety valve like the Standard for the other side 🙂
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July 28, 2010 5:09pm
Steve

Kris K

The full moon was on July 26th, see you for the August full moon. Then you can clutter up GD with religious bullshit
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July 28, 2010 5:16pm
Dirty Rat

is 5.40 an acceptable time to be drunk ?
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July 28, 2010 5:40pm
Steve

am or pm?
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July 28, 2010 5:51pm
Dirty Rat

pm
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July 28, 2010 5:57pm
Steve

ask me in 2 hours
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July 28, 2010 6:01pm
Dirty Rat

okay
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July 28, 2010 6:16pm
Steve

Changes to ACC.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/07/28/c78012e1bd64
Once again ACC will get opinions from ‘experts’ to dispute claims. Writing or emailing to Nick Smith is a waste of energy, the man just can not read.

Try an injury claim for herniation of C5 C6. When declined try and get some sense from Nick Smith. The man is on a different planet, another page, another channel.

He will treat the 20000 writings with contempt, he is ignorant. But hey Nick, come Election time National are going to cop it big time with the ‘Party Vote’ because of wankers like you. You refuse to address the issues, you refuse to reply to emails.
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July 28, 2010 6:35pm
Lucia Maria

Hi Kris,

I’ll reply on my blog.

Edited to add (over the next few days, maybe tonight).

Edited again to add (in the meantime, you might want to read this: Sine Dominico Non Possumus)

🙂
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July 28, 2010 7:07pm
Pete George

They tie themselevs in knots trying to argue whose is the correct interpretation. Maybe they are all partly right.

Sarah Palin argued on Bill O’Reilly’s show that America’s laws should be based on the Ten Commandments because its Constitution is based on it. Good, No Muslim will object to that. Now lets look at the Ten Commandments, you will find them all in the Quran, the holy book of Muslims.

The key values of Islamic Sharia are monotheism (Tawhid) and justice (Adl). And the key principles of the Islamic Sharia are based on the Ten Commandments. Conservatives in the West cannot advocate for the Ten Commandments and campaign against the Sharia at the same time, the two are one and the same.

Sharia is based on Ten Commandments
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July 28, 2010 7:09pm
Kris K

Pete George 7:09 pm,

“Conservatives in the West cannot advocate for the Ten Commandments and campaign against the Sharia at the same time, the two are one and the same.”

If you think Islam’s Sharia law is based on the biblical Ten Commandments, Pete, then I have a bridge I’d like to sell you …

Wake up and smell the coffee, Pete – even a dyed in the wool atheist like you should be able to spot the difference between Islamic belief and practice and that of Judeo-Christian foundational beliefs – and certainly the ten commandments.

Personally I think your just being deliberately dishonest and duplicitous – your normal MO, IMO.
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July 28, 2010 7:32pm
Steve

Dirty Rat,

I can not stay, the glass is half empty and the bottle is nearly empty. But my Mum needs the rest before 5.40am so she can ring up Radio Yackback coz she can not hear and the Govt stopped her hearing
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July 28, 2010 7:32pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria 7:07 pm,

Hi Kris,

I’ll reply on my blog.

Hi Lucia,

I’ll keep an eye out.
Although MikeNZ also directed one question to both you and I in Monday’s GD – I answered him, but you may want to as well. I just thought it made sense to keep it all in one place. If you comment in your blog perhaps you could invite Mike there as well? Anyway, I’ll leave it with you.
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July 28, 2010 7:42pm
Steve

Johnboy, what’s going on here

Beef and Lamb New Zealand is getting back to its roots by holding farmer update gatherings this year in wool sheds.

The first of the organisation’s 100 farmer meetings started on Tuesday in Hawke’s Bay. The organisation is funded by levies.

Beef and Lamb, formerly Meat & Wool New Zealand, no longer deals with wool.

But chairman Mike Petersen says the reason behind having the meetings in shearing sheds is to make the organisation more accessible to sheep and beef farmers.

The shearing shed meetings will be held over the next five weeks.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2010/07/28/91b8b2d9749f
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July 28, 2010 7:56pm
Lucia Maria

Kris,

Oh yes, thanks for reminding me.
I’ll put the links in Monday’s GD, then.

Mike is very welcome to come to NZ Conservative, as is everyone else. No invitation needed!

Oh yeah, I have something for Courage Wolf as well. I’m going to have to add a few sticky notes to my computer screen.

I tend to have the most time to post over the Friday/Saturday period, especially when it’s something I need to think about. Not like this sort of reply which I can just whack out.
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July 28, 2010 8:41pm
RightNow

Pete “Conservatives in the West cannot advocate for the Ten Commandments and campaign against the Sharia at the same time, the two are one and the same.”

I don’t think this is the dichotomy it appears to be. Western conservatives can advocate for the ten commandments, while being against the stringent application and harsh punishment of Sharia.

More notably it is incongruous with our liberalised western culture, which only makes me suspicious when liberals endorse it.
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July 28, 2010 9:39pm
kaya

I looked into buying gold a few years ago, when I came to the conclusion that the broker would take the money didn’t physically give me the gold, my “too good to be true” radar kicked in. I never thought much more of it but after reading this article I’m stating to wonder, is the gold market another example of fractional reserve banking? If it is, and if there was a run on the yellow stuff, the price will go through the roof and the impact on the financial markets will be like a nuclear bomb.

“The LBMA joins the gold squeeze cover-up”

http://www.gata.org/node/8858
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July 28, 2010 10:12pm
Haiku Dave

i love it when ‘ten
thousand post russell’ says he
doesn’t have the time!
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July 28, 2010 10:16pm
MikeNZ

Rightnow
the thing of Islam it is the partly the jewish laws but they religiously keep them. works.
That Sharia in practice from all the 5 central Hadiths favours Muslims as 1st class and non-Muslims as 2nd and 3rd class is the issue. Just ask Chinese Malaysians who emigrated here about their schooling and varsity experience and job prospects as NOn Muslims Malaysians.
Plus women are chattels, that’s why they word is worth half a mans (male over 12).
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July 28, 2010 11:33pm
kaya

I see another flying coffin has killed 150 or so poor souls. That is a plane I will never fly on.
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July 29, 2010 7:36am

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