Overstayers

August 24th, 2010 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Overstayers are turning themselves in after finding life here to be “unbearable”, says an adviser.

The number of overstayers has been steadily declining since 2004, the Department of Labour says.

It estimates there are 15,760 overstayers in the country, down from 15,880 last October.

This is good. Overstayers undermine those migrants who move here legally. Overstayers should not be able to gain employment or welfare, and should be deported as they are located.

New Zealand takes in tens of thousands of migrants legally, plus 1,000 or so refugees a year. We should support those who follow the correct process, and get rid of those who do not.

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53 Responses to “Overstayers”

  1. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Excellent, we’ve managed to make our country shittier than the crap holes they came from.

    I’m so proud.

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  2. peterwn (3,294 comments) says:

    Murray – but only for the overstayers. Anyway, even then, NZ is less ‘shitty’ from where they come. for example, if they need urgent hospital treatment it is treat first ask about $$$ later whereas it is the other way round in many other places including USA. Also, NZ’s jails are generally far less shittier than those in the countries they came from.

    The bigger problem in my view is those who manage to get a foot on NZ soil then claim ‘refugee’ status. This is why NZ and many other countries insist that passports and visas are checked before boarding planes and some passengers are asked to surrender passports during the flight so they do not end up down the dunny. This causes severe inconvenience to genuine visitors to NZ from ‘high risk’ countries and their NZ hosts.

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  3. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Good to know peter, I’ll tell my doctor when I get to see her in November with my chronic wound.

    Whoo hoo!

    Meanwhile we have a local refugee who tried to sneak into New Zealand with a forged passport, changed his story several times then got a free pass even though he was security risk and has convictions in other countries. He sells kebabs now… when he bothers to show up.

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  4. MT_Tinman (3,249 comments) says:

    This is good. Overstayers undermine those migrants who move here legally. Overstayers should not be able to gain employment or welfare, and should be deported as they are located.

    The white ones are.

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  5. KiwiGreg (3,259 comments) says:

    “is treat first ask about $$$ later whereas it is the other way round in many other places including USA.”

    Not true

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  6. KiwiGreg (3,259 comments) says:

    “Meanwhile we have a local refugee who tried to sneak into New Zealand with a forged passport, changed his story several times then got a free pass even though he was security risk and has convictions in other countries. He sells kebabs now… when he bothers to show up.”

    dont forget his entire family is here too now

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  7. backster (2,183 comments) says:

    MURRAY:……..Don’t forget the Kebab Seller also brought in his brothers and at last count about 16 relatives under the ‘happy families together ‘ clause.

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  8. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Be assured I have not forgotten what hes cost us or who supported him doing it. Should never have been passed through imigration.

    Same plane back, thanks for stopping by.

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  9. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    backster@1004. 16 at last count?

    Where did you hear that? MSM seems to only focus on the “positive” side of this story.

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  10. Chris2 (768 comments) says:

    Overstayers are mainly able to remain in NZ because they are employed by their own kind who turn a blind eye to employing illegal workers as they can pay them less and not pay holiday pay or other entitlements. Twenty years ago it was quite difficult for unlawful non-English speaking migrants to gain work, but with the increase in ethnic communities it is now possible for an illegal worker to gain employment and never come to the attention of the authorities.

    It’s simple for an illegal immigrant to get an IRD number and employers have always relied on that as a “reasonable” defence for employing foreigners.

    However, from 29 November 2010 this defence will no longer apply and employers will be liable for a fine of up to $10,000 if they employ someone not entitled to work in NZ (they will be able to get proof by sighting and retaining evidence of a foreigner’s entitlement to work in NZ, eg: work permit in a passport).

    Incidentally, in Singapore, they don’t have a significant overstayer problem. This is because the employer there is liable to a mandatory six months imprisonment if an illegal worker is found on their premises. In such circumstances the law requires the employer to prove their innocence, not the other way around.

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  11. Cunningham (845 comments) says:

    Chris2 you hit the nail on the head. $10,000 is bugger all when they are probably earning good money by paying them sweet f’all. Lock them up for 6 months and fine them and then see how many are willing to take the risk.

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  12. Fot (252 comments) says:

    “plus 1,000 or so refugees a year”

    That is 1000 more than we should ever be taking.

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  13. Chris2 (768 comments) says:

    Cunningham – I overlooked mentioning that there is also a prison sentencing option for employing illegal workers – 7 years jail.

    I could envisage a custodial sentence in circumstances where someone is making big money from having organised gangs of illegal workers work on orchards and vineyards.

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  14. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    A little bird tells me that the worst numbers for over stayers are white poms who have this idea they blend in among real kiwis.

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  15. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Where they support the labour party like myopic slogan shouters and troll kiwiblog telling us how great socialism is even though it screwed their home land, Scotland.

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  16. Chris2 (768 comments) says:

    Fot – NZ has a quote of accepting 750 refugees annually, has done for over 15 years now, but it never actually fills the quota.

    This figure does not include “spontaneous” refugees – those who arrive here lawfully in NZ and then apply for refugee status (Zaoui was an example, although most spontaneous refugees do not apply for refugee status when they arrive, but rather when their visa is about to expire, which says a lot about their genuineness).

    Most countries fine airlines if they bring illegal immigrants into a country, and make the airline pay the cost of returning the illegal immigrant from whence they came. NZ has similar penalties but for years Immigration authorities here have failed to consistently enforce this, so airlines (and Air NZ is the worst offender) thumb their noses because there is no penalty and they are more concerned with bums on seats.

    Finally regarding refugees. The French Government has a long-standing policy of only accepting French-speaking refugees for settlement. They (correctly) figure that the single biggest determinant of a refugee’s ability to successfully settle into a country is their ability to speak the language. France believes there are enough genuine French-speaking refugees without their having to accept any that can’t speak French already.

    I believe NZ should have a similar policy – only accept English speaking refugees, it would cost us less to settle them, and enclaves like Mt.Roskill’s Somali community might not develop, and refugees are more likely to find employment if they can already speak English.

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  17. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Chris you are either lying or ill informed. Zoui did NOT arrive here legally, he attempted to sneak in with a forged passport and was caught.

    He changed his story several times and did not say anything about being a refugee untill he had called a alwyer known for her skills to get people in as refugees.

    But thanks for parorting the media line to demopnstrate how history is reweitten. Very edifying.

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  18. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    The Somali issue is interesting.
    Sunday on TV1 did a story this week on the “khat” peddling fellow attached to the madrassa attached to the mosque in Hamilton. Also allegations of sending money “home” to the jihadisin Somalia.And to the desire for sharia among the Somalis,who were constantly referred to as “immigrants” and not “refugees”‘which I guess most of them are.

    I nearly fell off my chair,not at the allegations,any idiot will know this is natural among such groupings,but at TVNZ airing such stories,after all we’re meant to believe in multiculturalism and happy ever afterism here in Aotearoa!

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  19. Chris2 (768 comments) says:

    Murray, Zaoui boarded his flight (I think in Malaysia) with a South African passport. South African passport holders enjoy visa-free entry to New Zealand (that’s why the airline allowed him to board the plane to NZ).

    Had Zaoui not flushed his passport down the aircraft toilet whilst en route to NZ he might have successfully entered NZ as a tourist. Because the passport went down the toilet nobody knows (including you) if the passport was a forgery, or a genuine SA passport that had been photo-substituted with Zaoui’s details.

    Since Zaoui did dispose of the passport he had no travel documents to present and was therefore obliged to present himself to the authorities upon arrival. He did not, as you claim above “sneak in”, and he was not as you say “caught”. He was completely open about his position, applying for refugee status to the first official he encountered – this was afterall the purpose of coming to NZ. After questioning he was taken to (I think) Papakura Police station and placed in custody. He remained continuously in custody for many many months.

    In my view Zaoui should never have allowed to stay. He relied on the UNHCR Concention to claim refugee status here, but when he arrived he had already breached the Convention which requires applicants to apply for refugee status at the first country they reach after fleeing their claimed persecution. Zaoui traveled to many countries before arriving in NZ and should have applied to those Governments.

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  20. Chris2 (768 comments) says:

    kowtow -in addition to the problem of Khat drug use within the Somali community is their predilection for arranging the forced “marriage” of their school-age daughters in complete contradiction of New Zealand laws that protect children. Any family caught doing this should be sent back to Somalia.

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  21. Cunningham (845 comments) says:

    I worked in the UK for a couple of years and the social problems resulting from year and years of relaxed immigration laws have resulted in many social problems. It is unbelieveble and I would hate to see that happen here. There are many refugees and immigrants who come here, integrate and are as ‘kiwi’ as anyone who has lived here their whole life. However I think there is definitely alot who don’t and over time the number of these people will grow and grow without people even realising it is happening. Eventually whole communities will form and we will have these same social problems. It needs to be tackled before the problem becomes a big one.

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  22. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Murray..I am with you…Malaysia is a nice place..Why didn’t he stay there? Oh thats right , no free handouts to foreigners in Malaysia..no publicity for foreigners in the Media. When Mahattir was in power there were endless front page rants about how awful foreigners were and about how everything wrong in the country was foreigners fault. Only one race matters in Malaysia..Also no wet behind the ears bordering on the moronic stupid female lawyer to fight his case for him.
    Is he now paying back his multi-million dollar debt?
    The khat issue has been on NZtv before..maybe on a programme like border patrol and when Paul Holmes did his Intrepid journey programme in the Yemen the yemeni men were all sitting around all afternoon chewing something similar. Khat is legal in the Uk and it is becoming a problem among young white men.
    It sounds like the Somalians have been dumped in Hamilton.. They are trouble wherever they go. I once read a report by a former community board member in CHCH who was asking questions when permission was being sought to build the mosque here..All he and the fellow members could find were about a dozen halal butchers…he said the first Somalians brought into ChCh were brought in to be ”bums on seats” at the mosque and that they were not genuine refugees but rather the families of the warlords..and that Christians helped them to be become bona fide refugees after they arrived here..Speak to genuine Egyptians they will say the same thing , that many refugees are fakes and I think it is very misleading to say that we accept 750 refugees a year as so many of them bring in their relations.
    The English only rule is of course common and economic sense. The prison sentence for the employers is a no brainer. Is Rangipo still open ? Pretty cold and bleak there.
    I also think we should not be accepting muslim immigrants..Their holy book says that Jews and Christians are pigs and apes..The fundamental tenet of their system is sharia law…that is , they want to implement sharia law throughout the world. They wish to overthrow all elected and non elected govts. This automatically makes them enemies of our state.

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  23. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    joana are you a native born Kiwi ? it is just that by your rant that all Muslims believe Jews and Christians to be pigs you sound like a fundy whining yank, are you one ?

    So you believe that NZ born Muslim in his nineties who fought for NZ in WW2 should be thrown out ?
    Damn, yanks have some arrogance, stating that they should decide who should come to NZ, too bad for them no one listens to raving fundy septics.

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  24. wreck1080 (3,955 comments) says:

    Remember the entire tongan rugby team who disappeared after entering NZ a few years ago.

    The news was full of them for a week or so, then nothing.

    I wonder how many were caught.

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  25. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Grumpy..you are free to make assumptions and dish out labels..We are both free to express our opinions. Under sharia law noone is free.

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  26. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Joanna
    I know several Kiwis of Chinese extraction originally from Malaysia and the reason they came here was to be free of Islam and Sharia type laws.
    Even though born there and citizens because they weren’t Muslim they were always treated like 2nd class citizens and didn’t have access to funding and opportunities as others who were.
    They are thriving here and are living testament to the evils of Islam and it’s Sharia domination.
    if we realy do value democracy here we should ban Sharia and the Burqua.

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  27. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Chris
    We’re an island so for people to get here they have to fly or boat, if we send them back within 24hrs at their expense and with a 5yr non entry ticket immediately they are found the numbers will go down.
    I like the idea of 6months jail for an employer employing an illegal or overstayer, definitely an incentive.

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  28. annie (539 comments) says:

    “MT_Tinman Says:

    This is good. Overstayers undermine those migrants who move here legally. Overstayers should not be able to gain employment or welfare, and should be deported as they are located.

    The white ones are.”

    It hurts to admit this, but you’re right on the money, Tinman.

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  29. peterwn (3,294 comments) says:

    Murray – I did say ‘urgent hospital treatment’, not free GP visits. I meant heart attacks, acute appendicitis, etc. It is treat first $$$ later. If accident injuries, it is treat first, nil hospital charges to pay for anyone, including overstayers, thanks to ACC.

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  30. Chris2 (768 comments) says:

    MikeNZ
    The problem is that as soon as these illegal immigrants arrive and claim refugee status the Immigration authorities are obliged to follow the procedures laid out in the UNHCR Convention. This includes an independent Appeal process, which can take several years to be completed. To my knowledge not one failed applicant for Refugee Status has accepted the initial determination by the Immigration Service (which can be done quite quickly) and left the country. Instead every failed applicant invokes the right to Appeal the decision, and therein lies the delay.

    NZ signed the UNHCR Convention back in the 1950’s in response to all the genuine refugees still left stateless after the War. Back then we were remote and distant from Europe and signing the Convention had no real impact on us because it was no easy matter to reach NZ anyway.

    Jet travel has changed all that, which just goes to show how important it is for Government’s to give deep consideration when signing an UN Convention – to think about the future possible consequences instead of wanting a nice pat on the back from the International community. I wonder if our recent signing of the UN Convention on indigenous people will come back to haunt us in years to come?

    Of course we don’t have to sign these Conventions, Indonesia for example has never signed the UNHCR Convention so when Chinese, Sri Lankan and all the others arrive their looking for a slow boat to Australia, the Indonesian Government has no responsibility to treat them as refugees and accept them in their own country.

    If boat people ever reach NZ (not an easy task because the boats commonly used – old Taiwanese fishing boats – can not easily sail the oceans leading to NZ) the reaction of the Government will determine if more make the journey.

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  31. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    joana That you are not a native born Kiwi, easy assumption to make because real native born Kiwis do not rant on about Muslims.
    Hell I am in favour of Muslims coming to NZ because it winds up you raving xtian types so much.

    They get rid of white over stayers, must disappoint some who post here.

    You need to stand for Parliament stating NZ should be a raving xtian fundy country, yes it is tough that you will get sod all votes.

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  32. kowtow (8,712 comments) says:

    Chris2 This story has been carried by other news agencies and our PM has spoken about it.They’re no longer boat people ,they’re ship people and can travel across the world to their chosen land.
    No staying in some 3rd world shit hole for these “refugees”.
    Interestinly in the story below is the 30000 arriving annually ,by ‘plane.And none get sent home.Interesting too is anyone oppossed is “ignorant”.
    This is a debate that is sorely needed across the west. Our “human rights “are being abused.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/08/2010821185255831487.html

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  33. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Poor MikeNZ

    if we realy do value democracy here we should ban Sharia and the Burqua.

    Yep, that’s true democracy, eh Mike? I guess Mike really values the Nanny State concept.

    Nanny, Nanny, those people in a country a long, long away have a system I don’t like and we need to ban it so they can’t bring it in here! They are nearly taking over now, all 20,000 of them!

    Nanny, Nanny, we need to ban the Burqua ‘cos I get scared of women dressed in black!

    Now Mike, seriously, we don’t need to ban Sharia because it needs an act of Parliament to have effect here, and if our Parliament ever becomes dominated by Muslims to the extent that Sharia is introduced, then that is just our valuable democracy in action.

    And if you are such a wimp that the burqua bothers you, well, just look the other way.

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  34. RightNow (6,995 comments) says:

    Luc has a point MikeNZ. I’d much prefer a few thousand women hide their faces under their burqas than be at risk of his one free grope policy.

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  35. Philonz (88 comments) says:

    Joana, have you actually read the Koran? If so, I think you may have missed the point. Anyway, here’s something for you from the good old, democracy loving, equality promoting, bible

    “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” 1 Timothy 2:11-15

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  36. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Mike I agree with you totally. Grumpy I am not interested in assumptions. You say you like to wind people up..I have no interest in winding anyone up..I am only interested in freedom. I have lived without it in an islamic country which is why I value it so highly.

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  37. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Hell I am in favour of Muslims coming to NZ because it winds up you raving xtian types so much.

    With an attitude like that I’d be happy for you to trade places with a foreign Muslim of my choosing. NZ would be the better for it.

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  38. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Thank you for your support, RN. Much appreciated. Can’t have Mike getting all hot and sweaty now, can we?

    joana

    There is no decipherable point to your ramblings. You don’t want NZ as an Islamic State – don’t worry, it won’t happen anytime soon. You think a few Muslim immigrants will threaten our way of life – get real.

    What a bunch of gutless wonders these so-called right winger are!

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  39. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    “Luc Hansen” yesterday:

    It’s interesting to see the comments from certain posters fixated on ideology rather than results

    “Luc Hansen” today:

    What a bunch of gutless wonders these so-called right winger are!

    Back on-topic, I support the deportation of overstayers, and further, that should be given the option of paying the cost of their deportation ..or.. being permanently barred from re-entering NZ.

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  40. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Luc..When did you live in an islamic country ?

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  41. wat dabney (3,804 comments) says:

    How dare people cross an entirely notional and arbitrary national boundary and peacefully come to live and work in this part of the world; possibly sending back some of their increased-but-still-meagre earnings to help feed, clothe and educate their children and care for their aging parents – a transfer mechanism which does more than anything else to alleviate desperate poverty.

    It’s outrageous I tell you. We should use violence to send them back to where they came from.

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  42. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    wat dabney It is even worse than that, a NZ Muslim has joined the NZ army as a LAV gunner, what a terrible thought , he is going to have a armoured well armed vehicle to chase the xtian god fearing in.
    Might I suggest to the raving right wing xtians that they go down to the base and drag him out.
    His rather large suntanned friends might not like that, hey your xtian god will protect you from them, honest :-)

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  43. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KK

    In your case, the cap absolutely fits. What’s your name again?

    And I have no problem with overstayers being deported, by the way. You pays your money and you takes your chances!

    joana

    I haven’t and what’s more I wouldn’t want to. For some reason Islam seems to thrive in very hot countries. I like our temperate climate, thank you.

    But what’s that got to do with anything we are discussing? I live here. I was born here. I like it here. And I have no problem with Muslim immigrants to this fair land. Plenty of studies show that immigrants make a positive contribution to their new country of domicile, so I welcome all immigrants that meet our standards in whatever way, including asylum seekers.

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  44. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Hey grumpy

    We will know we are in trouble when Muslims join our air force!

    Air force…hmmm…

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  45. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Luc..it is very obvious that you have never lived in an islamic country. How do you know so much about islam if you have never lived in an islamic country?
    To the poster who asked if I had read the koran…I first read it about 37 years ago.
    Real native born kiwis don’t rant on about muslims..Wow. What a sweeping statement. It is simply not true. More and more native born kiwis are speaking up and out about islam as they wake up to the dangers it poses. More and more kiwis are reading sites like Winds of Jihad , Jihad Watch , Gates of Vienna , Australian Islamist Monitor…They realize that the horrors people are facing in other countries will soon be in our midst.

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  46. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Joanna
    The left support Islam as it is dismantleting Judeo/Christian based societies so assisting them. (so they think).
    They are Dhimmis by distance and not worthy of their citizenship wherever they are as they can’t see the wood for the trees.

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  47. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Yes I agree Mike…the marriage of the socialista and the muslims is just another marriage of convenience. The seriously hypocritical part is where socialists try to say they are interested in women’s rights..Noone interested in women’s rights can simultaneously be a supporter of the muslim cause. The muslim cause poses the greatest danger to women everywhere which is one of the reasons why I shall fight it to the death. Eight women were stoned to death in the Middle East this week.
    In this mornings Sydney Morning Herald , even the Yemeni Govt is considering stopping granting Somalis automatic refuge there. Al-Shabab has been causing ”concern.” Meanwhile our police are naive enough to say on the telly that money is not being sent back to them. A man wrote on a NZ blog about two or three years ago saying that there is an area of Lower Hutt known as Little Mogadishu and that the Somalian refugees living in their 80 dollar a week houses were sending money home so their reallies could buy their AK47s. Pity the poor people , police and social workers of Hamilton and Lower Hutt. One thing muslim immigration does everywhere is greatly increase the need for social workers. The Germans said we thought the second , third generations would be better but instead they were worse.

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  48. Pete George (23,676 comments) says:

    The left support Islam as it is dismantleting Judeo/Christian based societies so assisting them. (so they think).

    Do you really think this sort of crap Mike? The world is not in neat little good or bad compartments. Where does “the middle” fit into your world view? What about leftie Christians and Jews?

    I’ll try and clarify where I stand – I disagree with parts of Islam more than I disagree with Christianity, so I don’t “support” either faith, but I think both religions have a right to practice what they believe within the laws of the countries their followers are in.

    Just because you consider yourself to be a rightwing Christian doesn’t mean
    a) you are good and everything else is bad
    b) every group who disagrees with anything you say supports everything you don’t like

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  49. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Joana
    and that’s because they don’t come to assimilate but to assimilate us!
    One of the things I deplore is that this so called war on terror and all the money being put into nation building is setting up Sharia compliant societies that discriminate against women and non Muslims in their own countries.
    The progressives conveniently ignore this problem, Do we hear them shouting from the rooftops about it?

    They are hypocrites and liars to a man.

    If they really did value freedoms, of association, religion and speech they would be at the forefront of calling for Sharia to be made illegal as it breaks our NZBORA in the most basic ways through Dhimmitude of Non Muslims and is against women as whole persons rather viewing them as chattel.

    Similarly they would be at the forefront of calling on GOVT to stop all NZAid to regimes that encourage Dhimmitude and Sharia compliance.

    I think as a mark of our revulsion towards Sharia Law that we should not accept any one who is Muslim as an immigrant or even refugee until Dhimmitude is not an acceptable behaviour and constitutional and legal consequence in Muslim states.

    Similarly, not allow any new mosques until the same freedom is found in Muslim states to build new churches as that will show that they are dismantling Sharia..

    One of the reasons Pakistan is perceived as anti west and aiding Al Qaeda is probably part of the reason people aren’t giving assistance to their floods.
    can you blame them?

    Ignore the progressives here, they are a risk to a free democracy.

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  50. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Mike ..good to come across an informed NZer..some days they seem few and far between. Pakistan’s support for islamic extremists has been well documemted by western journalists who have worked in the region…The Pakistani govt turned down aid from India immediately after the flood. Why should any westener or western country give aid to a country which has already turned down aid…..is known to be corrupt…..and has enough resources to run its own nuclear weapons programme?
    Malaysia is the Pakistan of our region , smiling and nodding whilst supporting islamic extremists in Thailand and the Phillipines.
    I wouldn’t call them progressives Mike..they call me names , label me , try to stereotype me , and pigeon hole me but they really have no answers for what I have to say…they attack the messenger because they seem to be light years away from understanding the message.
    Pete George…just another person who has never lived in an islamic country.

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