Suicide reporting

August 25th, 2010 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

An internet safety group has backed the Prime Minister’s view that the public reporting of is now virtually beyond control, because young people routinely discuss cases on websites.

said yesterday that Parliament could “explore” the rules on suicide reporting because they were “somewhat defunct these days”.

“The reality is that, particularly with youth suicide, very quickly social networking sites like Facebook and blog sites report that. There’s huge engagement with young people around that information and so I don’t think blocking the media from reporting is achieving an awful lot.”

He said it would make sense to review the rules, but it was important to tread carefully because of the risk of copycat suicides.

The director of NetSafe, Martin Cocker, said Mr Key’s assessment was “bang on”.

I think we underestimate the capacity of kids to cope with information. The Internet has opened up the world to kids, and most of them cope fine with it.

On Twitter the other day I saw someone tweet how they had asked their two year old what she was doing on the computer, and her response was “checking facebook”!.

Mr Key was responding to chief coroner Judge Neil MacLean’s suggestion that reporting restrictions be eased.

He wants to encourage more openness, public debate and responsible media coverage of suicide, in the hope that this might reduce the suicide rate.

Which it hasn’t greatly.

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77 Responses to “Suicide reporting”

  1. KiwiGreg (3,129 comments) says:

    Rules preventing reporting of suicides are one of New Zealand’s dirty little secrets. Most people are astonished when they find our suicide rate is higher than our road toll. As far as I can tell countries with more freedom of speech than New Zealand do not have higher suicide rates.

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  2. davidp (3,329 comments) says:

    I had no idea that there were any restrictions in reporting. What law are they in?

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  3. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Ther eis a greater danger in glorifying the death of young people such as the school assemblies and everyone indulging themselves in the event. It makes death look very attractive.

    suicide however is exceedingly unpleasent and even if the girls get weepy over you being dead its not going to help you get laid.

    hiding suicide means the causes and contributing factors remain hidden. Firstly guess what, everyone feels crappy a lot of time and if you tell someone it might look so damn bad. It would also help families to see the signs which are exceedingly subtles and many people will deny them outright because it makes them feel uncomfortable.

    The worst warning being when someone who has been depressed suddenly cheers up. Thats your tell tale that they have made the decision and everythign that has been bothering them has ceased to be a problem. If you’re lucky you’ve got 24 hours to do something about it.

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  4. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    davidp ask any reporter. they are not parmitted tio use the word suicide unless the coroner is satisifed it will not lead to and harm.

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  5. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    Jolly Jim has a lot to answer for here. He had far too many conflicts of interest to have ever been allowed anywhere near drug or suicide policy.

    Of course the kids discuss it, sticking our heads in the sand won’t make the nasty monster go away….

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  6. Viking2 (10,744 comments) says:

    HMMM, it might be very revealing to determine the sexes who are doing this and when it is revealed that young men and men generally are the unfortunate victims of this cover up then we might also begin to once again discuss men and mens role in NZ rather than listening to the constant harping of the femminists and girls can screw anything lobby.
    We might, just might, start to discuss why young men are failing in a femminised school system, why boy’s subjects have dissappeared from the ciriculum, why young men who can’t succeed at school because they can’t sit still or simply just want to go do work are being denied what should bve their individual right’s to go get a job. A job that an employer cam afford tompay the young man to do, that the employer can take that young person’s energies and teach them something that they just might be interested in.
    Maybe the National Govt. might stop making these young men into beneficiaries and allow them to be part of the community the grows and creates wealth in NZ instead of having more and more rules that prohibit or stop them doing so.
    Maybe if they just stopped to ask us older guys, just for once, what we should be doing then just maybe, those that call themselves Govt. just might start to be that. Not every young man has a future in a high school, polytech or university education. Indeed most of the founders of NZ never did. Its the arrogance that goes with that particular attitude and the people it captures that creates the feeling within young men that they can never suceed.

    All Mr Key has to do is to reinstate youth rates and allow young people to leave school when it suits their lives rather by a prescribed rule that say thou shall.
    Its not that hard and then we can start on removing the DPB and the various bits of law the essentially have declared men second class citicens in their own country and in their own houses.

    And just maybe Mr English won’t have to continue finding funds for Corrections which he predicted a week or so back would be the biggest Dept. of Govt. within the next 3 years.

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  7. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Well spotted Viking, it is indeed males who are over representedin these stats.

    Males both young and those who are middle aged and on the recieving end of a family break up and child custody issues. They have no support and a system predisposed against them.

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  8. Repton (769 comments) says:

    HMMM, it might be very revealing to determine the sexes who are doing this

    If by “doing this” you mean “committing suicide”, then men outweigh women by about 3:1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    But if you look through that list, you will see that this is true of every country in the world except China.

    No data on rates by age, though.

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  9. Thomas the Unbeliever (141 comments) says:

    “I think we underestimate the capacity of kids to cope with information. The Internet has opened up the world to kids, and most of them cope fine with it.”

    Surely the increasingly suicide rate, youth violence, and substance abuse at an increasingly younger age may be indicators that many kids do not “cope fine with it”. Youth have access to a lot more information than previous generations – but it seems clear to me (at least from my own kids, and work with youth) that they are struggling to find a way to cope with all that information.

    The benefits of the Information Age come hand in hand with some substantial social problems.

    The genie (i.e. the free and unfettered exchange of information) has escaped – and no one is going to be able to force that genie back in the bottle. However advocates of a “free internet” do not help their argument by denying that the unfettered access to information has left society with some casualties.

    There is a downside to freedom of information. Consider this: you have right to know that you suffer a congenital disease like Huntington’s. Our medical technology today means that you are more likely to find this out than in previous generations. However no one would denying that possessing that knowledge has the potential to cause you harm – when in another age you would have remained ignorant (and possibly happier). That is why releasing such portent information is done in a controlled way – and access to help with dealing with the information is provided.

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  10. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    I really do think that bringing conversations about suicide out into the open will reduce the feelings of isolation many would-be committers of suicide feel. Is it not, at least in part, the fact we DO NOT talk about it in itself a contributing factor?

    I think the (wrong) views of many is that if we ignore it it will disappear – sadly this hasn’t worked to date; our increasing suicide rates continue to climb, and especially that of youth.

    When I was a kid/teenager (60s & 70s) you almost never heard of youth suicide – today it’s like a plague!
    So what’s changed?
    My person view is that as we’ve implemented socialist policy (over the last 30+ years) we have systematically attacked and devalued the traditional family; the building block of a healthy society. Kids, as a result, have become disenfranchised, unaccountable to any form of authority (least of all parents and teachers), and have minimal idea of what constitutes strong morals and values – basically they are adrift in a morally relativistic world and often only find gratification/purpose in chasing after hedonistic pursuits (sex, drugs, alcohol).

    It is no coincidence that just as we have seen youth suicide escalate so, too, have we seen youth activity in the areas of sexual promiscuity, teen pregnancy, teen STDs, teen drug use, teen alcohol abuse, etc ALSO go through the roof.

    The socialist societal change engineers have done their job well.

    These societal change engineers, who have introduced socialist doctrine which have undermined our Judeo-Christian value system and the traditional family unit, are, as I said earlier, to blame. They include the feminist/lesbian/homosexual lobby as well as all the multicultural and tolerance propagandists. Of course this group has NO tolerance for those who oppose them and would resist their machinations.

    The following article by Ian Wishart is worth a read:

    The Velvet Underground – Labour’s quiet revolutionaries

    [Excerpt]

    Despite that, Goodger argued that merely capturing people’s hearts and minds didn’t go far enough, that “the sisterhood” had to take control of the Government from within. “The deep roots the [Labour] party has in the working class, through the unions, makes it objectively an ally of the women’s liberation movement. Feminists working within the Labour Party can do much to further the cause of women’s liberation.” Again, John Tamihere’s account of what has happened to Labour eerily reflects that 1973 plan of action. “Oh yeah, there’s definitely a ‘machine’ all right. It’s formidable. It’s got apparatus and activists in everything from the PPTA all the way through. It’s actually even built a counterweight to the Roundtable – Businesses for Social Responsibility. Its intelligence-gathering capabilities are second to none.” Having those activists in place, with the power to write laws and decide what children will be taught in schools, is a dream come true for what Opposition MPs are calling “the lesbian/feminist cabal” running the Labour Government.

    It’s worth reading the whole article.
    And it’s scary just how much of what was planned over thirty years ago has become a reality over the intervening years; much of it during Labour’s last three terms under Helen Clark – one of the original architects of many of these changes.

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  11. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Thomas the increasing rate is taking place in an environment of secrecy. This clearly isn’t working then is it.

    We can do something different and get a different result or we can keep doing the same thing and be suprised about getting the same result. One of the definitions of insanity.

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  12. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Viking2 10:33 am,

    HMMM, it might be very revealing to determine the sexes who are doing this and when it is revealed that young men and men generally are the unfortunate victims of this cover up then we might also begin to once again discuss men and mens role in NZ rather than listening to the constant harping of the femminists and girls can screw anything lobby.
    We might, just might, start to discuss why young men are failing in a femminised school system, why boy’s subjects have dissappeared from the ciriculum, why young men who can’t succeed at school because they can’t sit still or simply just want to go do work are being denied what should bve their individual right’s to go get a job. A job that an employer cam afford tompay the young man to do, that the employer can take that young person’s energies and teach them something that they just might be interested in.

    Spot on, V2.
    Part of the aims of the socialist change engineers (Feminist/Lesbian/Homosexual lobby et al) has been the removal of men from schools (the feminisation of the education system) and the home. Kids, and especially boys, often have NO male role models in their lives. So are we really surprised that as a result we observe escalating youth (esp male) suicide rates?!

    As I said in my earlier comment – “The socialist societal change engineers have done their job well.”

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  13. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    Part of the aims of the socialist change engineers (Feminist/Lesbian/Homosexual lobby et al) has been the removal of men from schools (the feminisation of the education system) and the home.

    Of course men aren’t responsible for this at all, they are all poor wimpy victims being forced to not be involved in families and education.

    Or could it be that many males have not adapted to the evolution from a domineering patriarchal society? If they can’t force their own way on others some of them choose to end their lives – and other lives unfortunately.

    (Relationship failure is one of many reasons why people choose to end their own lives)

    As I said in my earlier comment – “The socialist societal change engineers have done their job well.”

    Like the unforgiving intolerant Christians who ostracise and shame those who don’t fit their ideals? That’s another thing that can cause people to end their lives. How many (known) homosexuals are in the suicide statistics?

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  14. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    “Of course men aren’t responsible for this at all, they are all poor wimpy victims being forced to not be involved in families and education.”

    So men are evil and their deaths are in fact a good result if they do not adapt to the feminist ideal of society?

    And besides its the fault of those evil Crhistians

    Fuck you talk some utter crap some days Pete,

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  15. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    I didn’t say anything like that Murray.

    I don’t think men should roll over meekly and join the “poor us” society. They have choices like women – it’s just more of an equal contest now, some men don’t seem to be able to handle that.

    Men should learn to earn respect by their actions, dominating by brute strength and ignorance is history. Of course it takes a lot more effort (and often a lot more guts) to be strong decent members of society, a quick bit of biff is not an easy fix and doesn’t cut it any more.

    Have you noticed that biff merchants are more frequently resorting to greater cowardice, attacking in gangs, kicking people in the head when they are down?

    Men have to learn to live in the modern world, and not blame everyone else for their shortcomings.

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  16. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    While anything which brings discussion of suicide out into public debate is, in my opinion, a positive move, I remain unconvinced that increasing details around suicide reporting will do more good than harm.

    Restrictions are needed for a reason – studies have shown spikes in suicide numbers immediately following high-profile reported suicides, and this is the last thing we want or need. And could our media really resist going into all the gory warts-and-all details in order to increase sales once restrictions are lifted?

    That said, we need to start talking about suicide because people are so under-informed and have such a poor understanding of the issues in NZ, which does untold harm. Prime example is Murray talking about people contemplating suicide and saying that you can tell the time is approaching when they ‘seem depressed and then suddenly seem happy’. This may be true in some cases. Not others. Some people make ‘danger statements’ like “nobody would miss me if I was gone”. Some don’t. For some, suicide comes completely out of the blue – the people you’d never expect. No two people are the same.

    It’s a very, very complex issue and one that can’t be solved with simple solutions. Better public education and more coverage on the nature of depression and the (many and varied) ways depression can be identified and treated is what’s needed. Plus less stigmatisation of those suffering mental health issues … but that’s another rant altogether!

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  17. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (759 comments) says:

    Pete there are so many things wrong with your statements but who has the time……
    but I just want to point out that suicide is less to do with ‘blaming everyone else’, and more to do with a lack of coping. That should be obvious.

    just for note:
    I remember seeing NZ suicide figures recently and they had almost halved since the mid 1990s (when the data I was looking at started)
    Males were practically 3 times higher than females
    and Māori were massively over-represented

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  18. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Murray 11:23 am,

    Fuck you talk some utter crap some days Pete

    Murray, you’re not alone in your assertion that Pete talks a load of crap. He has been absorbed into the feminist/lesbian matriarchal society and has become little more than one of their drone male bees – only kept around for breeding purposes.

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  19. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    I wasn’t saying the suiciders are blaming everyone else, it is some posters here trying to blame everyone else = “socialist societal change engineers”, “Feminist/Lesbian/Homosexual lobby et al)” etc.

    Those committing suicide do so for a variety of reasons, one of which is a lack of coping. They would benefit from more solid support than the blamers seem capable of.

    One important and carefully conducted study found suicide attempts among homosexuals were six times greater than the average (Remafedi et al)

    In the Archives of General Psychiatry– an established and well-respected journal–three papers appeared with extensive accompanying commentary (Fergusson et al. 1999, Herrell et al. 1999, Sandfort et al. 2001, and e.g. Bailey 1999). J. Michael Bailey included a commentary on the above research.

    Bailey said, “These studies contain arguably the best published data on the association between homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are at substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, and nicotine dependence…The strength of the new studies is their degree of control.”

    http://parentingteens.about.com/cs/gayteens/a/gayyouthsuicide.htm

    Promoting crap like “homosexuality is a sin”, abnormal etc, and that men are excluded from education and families due to the “Feminist/Lesbian/Homosexual lobby et al” will not help minority sexualities cope, in some cases it will put further pressure on people, and the studies suggest with awful results.

    So I do think some Christians and Muslims have a case to answer, if their ideas were so bloody good and so bloody effective as they make out then the world would have surely been “cured” of homosexuality and suicide a long time ago.

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  20. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 11:18 am,

    Like the unforgiving intolerant Christians who ostracise and shame those who don’t fit their ideals? That’s another thing that can cause people to end their lives. How many (known) homosexuals are in the suicide statistics?

    Actually, Petey, the reason I believe the number of openly homosexual males (especially teens/young men) have increased is BECAUSE they have very few male role models upon which to model their sexuality. Even someone with your lack of comprehension should be able to see the correlation (won’t hold my breath).

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  21. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    Based on what research KKK? Your “the reason I believe” does not have a lot of credibility.

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  22. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 12:06 pm,

    Promoting crap like “homosexuality is a sin”, abnormal etc, and that men are excluded from education and families due to the “Feminist/Lesbian/Homosexual lobby et al” will not help minority sexualities cope, in some cases it will put further pressure on people, and the studies suggest with awful results.

    So your solution is to normalise something which is obviously ABnormal and UNnatural.
    If you abuse yourself by participating in the homosexual ‘lifestyle’ it is the self-loathing, guilt and the hedonistic seeking of sexual gratification which ultimately leads many homosexuals to suicide. Not to mention the myth of homosexual ‘faithfulness’ to one partner being a factor. It is a known fact that MOST homosexuals have multiple partners, and are MUCH MORE promiscuous than are their promiscuous heterosexual counterparts.

    This isn’t rocket science, Petey.

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  23. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 12:12 pm,

    Based on what research KKK? Your “the reason I believe” does not have a lot of credibility.

    Based on … pretty much everything you say is BS, and therefore the opposite must be true by definition.
    … and that I can’t be bothered hauling out all the supporting documentation.

    Oh yeah, if you ignore the Maker’s Manual then don’t be surprised when it all turns to shit!

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  24. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    “This isn’t rocket science”

    That’s one thing you got right.

    “So your solution is to normalise something which is obviously ABnormal and UNnatural.”

    No. There is no “solution”. Criticising and ostracising and condemning groups of people will not help any of them cope. It leads some to make the decision to stop coping.

    Offering support and understanding may help some cope better. It may prevent some suicides.

    This isn’t ancient religious dogma KKK.

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  25. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    .. and just as we seem about to have a rational debate about something that desperately needs it, the post gets threadjacked by a completely unrelated issue that’s been done to death … can you guys please save the ‘homosexuality is evil/no it isnt/yes it is/no it isnt/yes it is’ convo for General Debate?

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  26. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    Vendetta, homosexuality is hugely over represented in suicide statistics (as quoted above “suicide attempts among homosexuals were six times greater than the average “) so it is relevant to the topic.

    For a number of years, researchers have known that one-third of all teenagers who commit suicide are gay.

    http://www.healthyplace.com/gender/gay-is-ok/stopping-gay-teen-suicide/menu-id-1420/

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  27. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 12:31 pm,

    No. There is no “solution”.

    Now there’s a Pete G[e]orgeism if I ever heard one!

    Pete G[e]orge – the man with ‘no opinion’ and certainly ‘no solution’.

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  28. Angus (536 comments) says:

    Queer film maker Simon Fanshawe made a doco for CH4 in the UK titled “The Trouble With Gay Men”

    Synopsis here:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/apr/21/gayrights.comment

    It used to be on YouTube but was pulled for copyright reasons.

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  29. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    What vendetta said. This is too important. Take the God bothering, and the God botherer bothering, elsewhere please.

    When I was a working journo the fatuous reason I was given for not reporting the details of suicide was to minimise the risk of “copycats”. We could report the bare fact that a person of X years of age had committed suicide if we liked, but not how they’d done it, or much else about it.

    Mostly it was self-censorship because editors were told they’d cause other suicides if they broke the rule. Occasionally it was a Coroner’s ruling.

    I always found it ludicrous in the extreme… most methods of suicide are well known and a reasonably intelligent person could figure out a fairly effective one for themselves. It’s not like mentioning the how is going to have someone suddenly say “Great, I had no idea how to kill myself till I read that, now I have all the info I need”.

    I accept that simply knowing there are others who’ve committed suicide before you may serve to tacitly encourage following suit by someone already predisposed to do so, but again any intelligent person is well aware that people have tragically chosen this option in the past – even some quite famous people.

    Are we going to stop kids studying Virgina Woolf because she drowned herself?

    What we need to be doing, IMHO, is demonstrating just how many people suffer from depression and illustrating that it’s possible to a) get treatment and b) go on living with it. From that perspective, having all those who harbour such thoughts admitting to suicidal ideation would be a good thing, since isolation and a sense of one’s problems being uniquely hopeless are what can trigger many people.

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  30. Viking2 (10,744 comments) says:

    Its about mens self estem. Many young men have their self estem attacked and without a stronger male to mentor end up beaten for life.

    Pete; I don’t wish to get into religious argument although there is certainly an element involved. What you fail to do is differentiate between the cause and the symptoms. What you talk about are symptoms. Men reacting to the envioroment that surronds them.

    That enviornment is shaped by the laws of NZ (and other countires) and it is noteable that it has deteriated yearly as the UN and its various rulings etc have been infiltrated into NZ.

    We willy nilly adopt proclomations from the most banial and corrupt peice og Quasi Govt organisation in the world. None of it is tested against our values either by disussion or by vote. The ETS is a good example but there was another one just a day back. Like a tide creeping socialism.

    We men need to rebel and put this out for discussion daily. I have been for sometime and its really interesting how many men and women agree.

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  31. eszett (2,272 comments) says:

    Oh yeah, if you ignore the Maker’s Manual then don’t be surprised when it all turns to shit!

    But of course. The Maker’s Manual which only Kris K can interpret correctly.
    Don’t worry about facts, reasoning, evidence.

    Just ask Kris K what the Maker’s Manual says, that will be true.

    What a load of crap, Kris.
    Delusional, self-rightous religious bullshit! That’s all you ever have to offer.

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  32. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    Perhaps, Pete, but it’s almost certainly a fringe issue as we’re talking about a fraction of the population. We need to look at bringing down suicide numbers as a whole and removing deep-rooted prejudice against those suffering mental illness, and by this we can also help reduce the number of suicides among the homosexual.

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  33. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    Quick, tell all gay teenagers that being gay is a sin and they will rot in hell – that should stop them killing themselves… Oh hang on, do they still fear God ?

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  34. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    “From that perspective, having all those who harbour such thoughts admitting to suicidal ideation would be a good thing”

    How many of those who are preached to that suicide is a serious sin are comfortable making admissions? You can’t discuss suicide openly while pushing the religious aspects under the carpet.

    “but it’s almost certainly a fringe issue as we’re talking about a fraction of the population.”

    One in three teenagers?

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  35. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    Interesting perspective Rex. As I said I would tread very carefully with regards to allowing media to report details – the media currently goes into far too much gratuitous detail at present about sensitive issues such as murders (the ‘house of horrors’ where the murderer practiced necrophilia on the bodies springs to mind) and the need to protect the loved ones of the victim is important.

    I think it’s not reporting the methods where the danger lies, more the fact that reading the details of suicides can resonate with people in a dangerous manner (where it wouldn’t with, say, for example, Virginia Woolfe, who seems a world away from real people in the media TODAY). For example, a person suffering a relationship breakup may pick up the paper and read of someone else in similar circumstances who committed suicide – people look to others to validate their choices, we’re all sheep to some extent – and decide that well, if others think it’s hopeless, it must be’.

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  36. Repton (769 comments) says:

    @Kris K:

    our increasing suicide rates continue to climb, and especially that of youth.

    Really?

    Let’s try googling for new zealand suicide rate. Here’s the top link: http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/health/suicide.html

    If you look at the graph, you’ll see the male rate peaks in 1998, dropping in 1999 and dropping again in 2002. Although really, what you’ll see is that NZ suicide rates have been pretty flat over the past 20 years. Suicide rates in 2006 seem to be almost exactly the same as rates were in 1986.

    The third Google link is http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/0/BEB6627B003586A5CC2570D400809A5B/$File/suicideratesinnewzealand.doc . This report was compiled in 2002 from data ending covering 1949-1999. It shows that female suicide rates were pretty constant throughout that period, but male rates climbed steadily through the 70s, and then sharply in the mid 80s.

    Putting the two together, one might wonder if the social climate of the 70s and 80s (particularly the 80s) was driving males to suicide, but something changed in the late 90s and 2000s to get the suicide rate under control and gradually reverse the trend.

    The youth suicide rate is higher than the overall rate (especially in young men, though you have to look at the second document for that), but it, too, is significantly lower than its peak around 1994-1998.

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  37. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    You misunderstand me Pete – I mean focusing on the gay population alone is a fringe issue.

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  38. Viking2 (10,744 comments) says:

    Yep sure did, we built more jails and sent more of them to prison.

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  39. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom 12:45 pm,

    What vendetta said. This is too important. Take the God bothering, and the God botherer bothering, elsewhere please

    Come on, Rex, you know homosexuals are over represented in suicide figures. And so if you want to reduce suicide you have to address the link between homosexuality and suicide. And like I said earlier, if men are being disenfranchised from the family and the education system, and are thereby being removed from the job of male role models to the next generation (especially boys), then surely there is an argument that the resultant increasing (youth) homosexuality will lead on to even more (homosexual) youth suicide.

    Of course many older heterosexual men fall victim to suicide through the breakup of family, etc.

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  40. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Spot on Kris
    My person view is that as we’ve implemented socialist policy (over the last 30+ years) we have systematically attacked and devalued the traditional family; the building block of a healthy society. Kids, as a result, have become disenfranchised, unaccountable to any form of authority (least of all parents and teachers), and have minimal idea of what constitutes strong morals and values – basically they are adrift in a morally relativistic world and often only find gratification/purpose in chasing after hedonistic pursuits (sex, drugs, alcohol).

    It is no coincidence that just as we have seen youth suicide escalate so, too, have we seen youth activity in the areas of sexual promiscuity, teen pregnancy, teen STDs, teen drug use, teen alcohol abuse, etc ALSO go through the roof.

    But you’re a fundy Christian so you can’t possibly have an opinion worth listening too, as you’re a hater aren’t you ? :-)
    Welcome to the progressive worldview.

    Oh just a thought don’t your points there apply to the 30′s 40′s 50′s but it was all hidden and not talked about?
    But in the 60′s 70′s and onward it has all become freer?

    Maybe that blip in the 70′s was the deep adjustment to “openess” that was needed in the pysche of the generation to be more open?

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  41. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    Kris K

    And so if you want to reduce suicide you have to address the link between homosexuality and suicide.

    Yep, you keep telling young people who are unsure of their sexuality that they are sick twisted bastards for not following God’s rule book – that will help them feel good about themselves.

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  42. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Repton 1:03 pm,

    The youth suicide rate is higher than the overall rate (especially in young men, though you have to look at the second document for that), but it, too, is significantly lower than its peak around 1994-1998.

    Fair enough, Repton – it may have been relatively level over the last ten years. But as you said, it certainly climbed prior to that through the 70s, 80s and into the 90s. And of those figures homosexual (young) men are over represented.

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  43. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 1:12 pm,

    But you’re a fundy Christian so you can’t possibly have an opinion worth listening too, as you’re a hater aren’t you?

    Yeah, Mike – I’ve been a ‘hater’ for over thirty years.
    It’s funny how when you challenge anyone’s belief system you get labelled a ‘hater’, isn’t it?
    Some of these idiots are MORE concerned with not missing an opportunity to bash a Christain, than they ARE to address the issue of HOW to reduce suicide – especially among men; young men; and homosexual men – the predominant groups which make up suicide figures.

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  44. Repton (769 comments) says:

    @Kris K: This may be so, although good evidence seems harder to find.

    This quote is interesting, though:

    Gonsiorek (1988) observes that the incidence of depression and suicide attempts remits as gay men
    find acceptance and social support.

    Source: http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/Files/chap910/$file/chap910.pdf
    (here’s the citation: Gonsiorek JC. 1988. Mental health issues of gay and lesbian adolescents. J Adolesc Health Care 9(2): 114.)

    So if as a society we stop stigmatising homosexuality, we should expect to see a decline in the suicide rate of gay teenages.

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  45. Atheist1 (174 comments) says:

    KrisK@1.30 – so come on then, Kris. Tell us how YOU would reduce the suicide figures then. But before you start quoting Leviticus and slamming women and feminists, please respond to Burt’s valid question, i.e. is your solution to “keep telling young people who are unsure of their sexuality that they are sick twisted bastards for not following God’s rule book” – is that REALLY your answer to making them feel good about themselves??!

    And you probably wonder why the only people here who ever agree with you are MikeNZ and Fletch…..

    Hmmm. It ain’t rocket science alright.

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  46. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    vendetta:

    As I said I would tread very carefully with regards to allowing media to report details – the media currently goes into far too much gratuitous detail at present about sensitive issues such as murders (the ‘house of horrors’ where the murderer practiced necrophilia on the bodies springs to mind) and the need to protect the loved ones of the victim is important.

    Leaving aside the desirability of the media reporting the details of such crimes, one could equally mount an argument about reporting of any story where harm befalls others. In Australia we’ve recently had a case where a separated father threw his infant daughter off a bridge; another drove his two sons into a dam; another stabbed his son and dropped the body down a well. There were no gartuitous details in the reporting of any of those cases, but who’s to say that reading about such things doesn’t implant the idea in the mind of another parent?

    Where we can’t be completely sure of the beneficial effect of secrecy, I ted to err toward openness.

    Kris K:

    Come on, Rex, you know homosexuals are over represented in suicide figures. And so if you want to reduce suicide you have to address the link between homosexuality and suicide.

    Homosexuality often leads to depression which sometimes leads to suicide. Whether that depression is caused by the state of being homosexual (to summarise your position) or society’s prejudice against you for so being (to summarise Pete’s argument) is pretty much irrelevant. Certainly the question of whether God, or Mohammed, or the seven legged gaseous deity of Alpha Centauri, disapproves of homosexuality doesn’t assist us one iota in preventing depressed people from taking their own lives.

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  47. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Repton 1:40 pm,

    So if as a society we stop stigmatising homosexuality, we should expect to see a decline in the suicide rate of gay teenages.

    I know that’s the theory, and perhaps if you think “everyone likes me” then no doubt this may effect some reduction in homosexual suicide. But I would still argue that homosexual suicide would be much greater than the norm as a result of homosexual self loathing – even if eveyone else “loved you”.

    Of course, if we extend your analogy to another group who are hated by a large portion of society – then we should ALSO see large numbers of Fundamentalist Christians committing suicide – which of course we do not. Another group who are hated would be the Jews; who likewise DO NOT have high suicides as far as I know. So perhaps “being liked” isn’t the MAIN driver behind a large number of suicides.

    Luckily I don’t come here to be “liked” ;)

    [PS Thanks for the links]

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  48. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    A close friend of mine and quite a few others did commit suicde after the 1987 share market crash..I haven’t got the stats in front of me but would think there would have been a rise in especially male numbers late 87 early 88. In those days , men’s methods were different and they were far more likely to succeed on the first attempt. Women were likely to repeatedly take pills , have a friend rush them to hospital etc..so they tended to live longer and therefore be more likely to get help.. As I understand it now , girls and women are likely to use the same methods as males.

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  49. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    There are already plenty of ‘how to’ books on suicide in the health/new age section of your local 2nd hand bookshop.

    The problem is that someone is thinking about killing themself, not that a story in the news was the last straw for them. If we accept that “society” or the media has a moral responsibility not to report on suicides just in case it pushes someone else over the edge, where does that kind of thinking end? No news coverage of CHCH boy racers, just in case seeing the coverage gives said boy racers an over-inflated sense of their own notoriety and spurs them to redouble their efforts?

    On the gay thing, I wonder if a young gay man would be any more (or less) likely to commit suicide if he knew his sexual orientation was illegal?

    +1 more vote for the Vendetta 12:32 comment.

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  50. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    Kris K

    I agree with much of what you have said but I think you are missing something vital to all of this. The socialist propensity for telling us how we should live our lives, what is good and what is bad is different to Christianity in only one regard. What they define as good and what they define as bad.

    You can blame the command and control nature of feminism/socialism as much as you like but in doing so you need to acknowledge that you are highlighting that people are disenfranchised and that is a problem. The point you seem to be missing is that there has always been disenfranchised people as long as there has been franchises. You are holding one set of rules which don’t fit all people and saying that some other set of rules that don’t fit all people are to blame. Meanwhile in true spirit of Christianity you are judging people for the things they do simply because they are doing things your rules define as bad.

    Open both eyes, you can’t have it both ways Kris. Either social engineering is OK or it is not, you can’t say your variant is fine and others aren’t.

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  51. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    And with my conspiracy-theorist, big-gummint-is-evil hat on, I wonder what the cost to the taxpayer is of the average suicide, compared to the presumably on-going costs(?) of mental health issues if that person doesn’t kill themselves?

    My fertile imagination can conceive of evil health ministry types working up a strong economic case for not standing in the way of those who want to kill themselves… not so sure how realistic this is.

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  52. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom 1:44 pm,

    Certainly the question of whether God … disapproves of homosexuality doesn’t assist us one iota in preventing depressed people from taking their own lives.

    Unless they’re depressed homosexuals?

    But you raise a good point, Rex – WHY do people become depressed?
    Perhaps there is a link between a lack of purpose/meaning and depression?
    And where does one get meaning/purpose from?

    Perhaps if we can answer the last question we would ALSO address the majority of suicide cases?

    So come on then, “Where do we get meaning and purpose from?”

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  53. Repton (769 comments) says:

    Of course, if we extend your analogy to another group who are hated by a large portion of society – then we should ALSO see large numbers of Fundamentalist Christians committing suicide – which of course we do not. Another group who are hated would be the Jews; who likewise DO NOT have high suicides as far as I know. So perhaps “being liked” isn’t the MAIN driver behind a large number of suicides.

    To this I would say: I attended a boys school in Wellington. It was very common to hear words like “faggot” and “gay” used as insults. I knew a couple of “devout atheists” when I was at school, but I never heard them describe something they hated as “fundie”.

    Secondly, if you’re Jewish, then you almost certainly have a Jewish family and Jewish friends and relatives from a young age. This is obviously not the case for gay people — especially since you won’t even discover that you’re gay until you reach your teens (or later). Membership in a group of like people is, I expect, a good defense against depression and suicidal tendencies.

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  54. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    Kris K

    “Where do we get meaning and purpose from?”

    By being accepted for what we are – not by being told what we are is wrong.

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  55. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    Good point Rex. I guess my point is that issues like the ones you cite as well as suicide need to be reported in a sensitive manner, and this is often not the case at present. The temptation will be there to speculate on reasons and motive, which is where (a) often there honestly are no concrete answers, cases are complex and depression makes everything harder to decipher, and (b) where people may identify with individual cases. No, not everybody who reads about somebody who suffered a relationship breakup and committed suicide will rush off to do the same, but people do take social cues from situations which are ‘normalised’.

    This also applies to RRM’s point. I would say that reporting around boy racers would also need to be handled sensitively, for exactly the reasons you cited. Showing them in any sort of positive or ‘cool’ light would be highly irresponsible.

    Journalists have far more power and social responsibility than many people (perhaps they themselves, in many cases) realise.

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  56. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Repton 2:10 pm,

    Secondly, if you’re Jewish, then you almost certainly have a Jewish family and Jewish friends and relatives from a young age. This is obviously not the case for gay people — especially since you won’t even discover that you’re gay until you reach your teens (or later). Membership in a group of like people is, I expect, a good defense against depression and suicidal tendencies.

    The thing is homosexuals ALSO have families and friends prior to adolescence – they’re not non-people prior to ‘discovering’ their sexuality. And of course after their ‘discovery’ they still have family, and no doubt they move into another group of ‘friends’ within the homosexual community. Heck, life is full of moving from one group to another – we move on and adjust. No different to changing schools, jobs, cities, countries – we develop new relationships with those we have things in common.
    Surely this is the human condition, and is NOT peculiar to homosexuals alone?

    [PS you didn't go to Rongotai, like half of the other blokes (& myself) which comment here (and of course DPF)?]

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  57. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Repton
    Why do kids now call something sad “gay” as social slang.
    They aren’t all homophobes are they?
    No, they instinctively know that it isn’t the norm or hardwired.

    I think the issue in suicide is that the person sees no hope or future then from there they see that suicide ends the hopelessness or puts an end to them pain (or perception of pain from helplessness).

    Assuming that with regard to “gay” youth, Kris is correct and also it is not hardwired but software.
    Some of them haven’t chosen homosexuality as an identity, they are experimenting but they keep getting the message “you are what you are just celebrate it” or the are initiated into it as prepubesent (256 words that mean chicken).

    It is no wonder that they get depressed and some suicide as in their heart of hearts they know that is not what they are and they feel revulsion and or helpless as in between a rock and a hard place.

    Attacking Kris or anyone isn’t going to change that is it?

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  58. Repton (769 comments) says:

    The thing is homosexuals ALSO have families and friends prior to adolescence – they’re not non-people prior to ‘discovering’ their sexuality. And of course after their ‘discovery’ they still have family, and no doubt they move into another group of ‘friends’ within the homosexual community. Heck, life is full of moving from one group to another – we move on and adjust. No different to changing schools, jobs, cities, countries – we develop new relationships with those we have things in common.

    They do — but if you discover you are homosexual then that effectively puts you into a minority group which is typically not shared by your family and friends. Your family may even condemn you for it.

    If society didn’t see being gay as such a significant thing, then your existing social groups would be entirely unchanged. But if coming out as gay makes you unwelcome in one of your established social groups, then it’s easy to imagine that could be a tipping point leading to self-harm or suicide.

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  59. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    A big part of what’s really needed to improve the stats is (unfortunately, as it’s bloody hard) a change in attitude towards mental illness. On the surface, it seems we’re more compassionate and understanding of people with depression (the John Kirwan ads, etc) … but think honestly about this: how many people hear of somebody taking time off work due to mental distress … and the immediate reaction is ‘god, what a useless slacker’ rather than compassion and concern? I’ve certainly been guilty of it before a few personal experiences with close family gave me a massive wake up call.

    We urge people to get help, saying they won’t be judged … but in many cases, they still are. And it’s stopping people getting the help they need.

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  60. KiwiGreg (3,129 comments) says:

    @ RRM about the only good thing from suicides is they are a good source of healthy organs and tissue (being mostly young men) and for many of the deceased family (who have the say on whether organs and tissue are donated) donating can give meaning at a time when it all seems pointless.

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  61. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Society will always see homosexuality as a significant thing Repton.
    1. it is only 1-3% of population so not the norm.
    2. it is a not the natural design, that’s easy to see. ( http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html )
    3. No studies have proved it is hardwired but software, even by their supporters. ( http://www.narth.com/docs/pieces.html )
    4. marriage or partnership between a man and a woman drives societal growth not homosexuals.
    5. The predilection for societies youth in the homosexual subculture identifies that they can’t reproduce their own kind so breaking the natural order of things. ( http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=16461 )

    You just can’t get round this accept by ignoring or rejecting it which leads to cognitive dissonance internally.

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  62. Yvette (2,591 comments) says:

    • “Most people are astonished when they find our suicide rate is higher than our road toll.
    And how many of the road toll are also suicides?

    • If journalists or police have restrictions on mentioning suicide they should also not say ‘No one else is being sought in connection with this incident’, or the equivalent, which is ‘code’ for suicide.

    • “This report was compiled in 2002 from data ending covering 1949-1999. It shows that female suicide rates were pretty constant throughout that period, but male rates climbed steadily through the 70s, and then sharply in the mid 80s
    Rogernomics and Ruthanasia accounted for more suicides there than homosexuality, I would suggest – at least in three cases I knew personally.

    • Kris K – “especially among men; young men; and homosexual men – the predominant groups which make up suicide figures.
    Can you refer to any statistic on that, or is this what the media should be giving us – some definite breakdown?

    • And despite gay liberation and securing certain rights, some homosexuals may well not accept themselves – and a philosophy that “I was born that way”, in that case, wouldn’t help either. You can fool a lot of the people all the time – but some can’t fool even themselves any of the time.

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  63. Viking2 (10,744 comments) says:

    # burt (4,471) Says:
    August 25th, 2010 at 2:33 pm

    “Where do we get meaning and purpose from?”

    By being accepted for what we are – not by being told what we are is wrong.

    And that is forever true.

    Nature has forever created people that are of different sexual orientation. Religious cranks who think that people so afflicted are not of the natural order clearly must ask their God why he does this and creates these beings and then they need to ask themselves why they don’t accept His (Gods), way of things.
    But their prejuices are such that they can’t concieve of the nature of things and Gods will, because of their fanatical religous beliefs.

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  64. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    the main factor (note, MAIN – there is seldom only one) contributing factor in suicide could be shame at being the subject of anti-gay bigotry and discrimination. OR, on the flip side, an inability to accept oneself as homosexual. Or, as Yvette mentioned, being unable to find unemployment. Or relationship breakups. Or painful incurable medical conditions. Bankruptcy. Sexual abuse. And sometimes no real reason at all other than chronic clinical depression attributed to no specific trigger.

    Everybody’s different. Figuring out how we get help for those at risk and educate people around suicide better are where our energies should be placed, not splitting hairs over individual ‘reasons’ for suicide.

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  65. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    An internet safety group has backed the Prime Minister’s view that the public reporting of suicide is now virtually beyond control, because young people routinely discuss cases on websites.

    National’s response to this was to call for stricter rules over the use of the internet. Toughening of rules for internet access, and internet filtering, was supported by INTACT the government-funded internet-awareness group: “Countries like China, Iran and Burma have strict internet rules, and youth suicide there is not measurable. Australia’s major parties are planning to bring such a system into their country, and we do not want to be left behind.”

    John Key has stated he will take a pragmatic approach to banning the internet, and will do so in a way to alienate as few National voters as possible, but still appear to be doing something. “Banning private internet use for those under 25 will help reduce youth suicide, but I think with parent supervision this age could be lowered to 18.” Written permission would be required if a youth was to use internet access at a separate location. Fines of up to $2000 will be imposed.

    Labour has stated the changes are a start, but do not go far enough. ACT has stayed silent on the issue, with ongoing infighting within the party.

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  66. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    Kris K asks:

    But you raise a good point, Rex – WHY do people become depressed?
    Perhaps there is a link between a lack of purpose/meaning and depression?
    And where does one get meaning/purpose from?

    I’d agree on the link between meaning/purpose and depression. While I’ve never been suicidal there have been times when I’ve been so crushed under the weight of things I’ve been tempted to say “bugger it” (excuse the pun) and simply crumple… give up, withdraw into myself, claim a benefit and waste the remainder of my life in a funk. In those situations my meaning and purpose has been derived from my children… my duty to them and my love for them.

    In a more general sense it comes from helping others (I was overwhelmed that an ex-crim I helped presented me with an engraved pen set and a touching card this weekend. Far more value than any fee I could have charged) and in feeling I’m making some contribution to society.

    Religion doesn’t come into it for me, but I’ve seen it save (in the real sense, not the afterlife sense) many, many people and for that and other reasons value it and its place in society. Equally I’ve seen many a young gay person (some of whom claim to have vaguely recognised it in themselves, though of course been unable to name it, and experienced it in a non-sexualised way at the age of 5 or 6) “saved” by finding acceptance and losing their sense of isolation in a gay support group… so I value them too.

    We all need to feel we matter, I think, even if – like me – you don’t particular care what the world thinks of you. Truly no man (even us irascible anti-social loners!) is an island.

    vendetta suggests:

    Figuring out how we get help for those at risk and educate people around suicide better are where our energies should be placed, not splitting hairs over individual ‘reasons’ for suicide.

    Very well said, sir (or ma’am).

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  67. Pete George (21,830 comments) says:

    But if you recognise common reasons you know how to identify those at risk, who to target, and how.

    Those with mental illness would usually be more obvious than most to pick out. Homosexuals and victims of sexual abuse (sometimes both causes for one person) are significant in stats and relatively easy to target – as long as the person reveals it (which often is not the case).

    Men dumped from relationships are more difficult – most men are dumped at least once in their lives, some could be dumped often. It can be a potentially overwhelming situation to be in, and I’m speaking from experience having been sort of dumped after a twenty year marriage, it was more or less expected but the timing wasn’t, and was a daunting experience for a while. How do you recognise which ones can’t deal with it? Ultra possessive types seem to keep coming up in suicide and murder stats.

    Asking for people considering suicide to volunteer for support is not likely to have a very successful hit rate.

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  68. Repton (769 comments) says:

    2. it is a not the natural design, that’s easy to see. ( http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html )

    Sorry, I’m not going to read through a whole page of links. If you’ve got something relevant that’s not written by someone with an axe to grind, then I’ll read it.

    I will say, though, that “natural design” doesn’t make sense. If there’s a designer (i.e. god) then it’s pointless talking about evolution. God put gay people on earth for some reason and there’s no point arguing.

    If you want to talk evolution, then obviously gay people will tend to have fewer children, so it is not a trait selected for. I read an hypothesis (in scientific american, I think) that suggested that men who are “almost gay” historically made the best parents (in terms of having successful offspring). This might imply that there are a variety of “gay genes”, and it’s only if you get too many that you become gay.

    3. No studies have proved it is hardwired but software, even by their supporters. ( http://www.narth.com/docs/pieces.html )

    I actually read this (well, skim-read it). It describes a man who, because of genetic or hormonal influences at birth, feels no attraction to girls, but is strongly attracted to boys. He resists for a while, hates life, and then admits to himself that he is gay and starts enjoying life. Later, he decides that he wants a family, and so he seeks “healing” to help him become heterosexual. He learns to live without enjoying sex, which allows him to marry and have children. Occasionally he gets wistful for the old days when he liked having sex, but then his training kicks in and he remembers that life without sex is actually better.

    I don’t know if this is an accurate picture of a gay man’s life (even if you stop it at step 9), but it definitely doesn’t support your claim that being gay is a choice. The man described tried to choose to be heterosexual — but he couldn’t! And finally he does “choose” heterosexuality — but only by giving up sex!

    (maybe I should write my own ending to the story: (10) He marries his long-term boyfriend. (11) Over a period of years, they adopt three children and raise them in a stable family environment. (12) The children grow up and live happy lives. As it happens, none of them are gay, but their parents don’t mind. (13) They all live happily ever after.)

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  69. vendetta (60 comments) says:

    The point I’m trying to make, Pete George, is that for the most part people are really misinformed about depression and suicide. ‘common reasons’ really don’t do much good unless they’re taught alongside an understanding that sometimes people can exhibit practically no visible cues that they’re depressed/suicidal.

    I say this as somebody who thought they were relatively well-informed with regards to suicide. When you really research, you realise there are a lot of misconceptions about.

    I’m curious as to why you believe encouraging suicidal individuals to seek help would not be a successful tactic?

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  70. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    Repton

    There is another (10); The guy gets married and has children but secretly continues to meet other Gay men and have affairs with them behind his Wife’s back. His Wife complains to the pastor that her husband has no sex drive and the pastor gives here one after church every Sunday. They all live happily ever after and nobody talks about what is really happening so we can all pretend he was healed by God.

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  71. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    People with manic depression or bipolar disorder are considered most at risk of committing suicide by mental health professionals but they were not mentioned in Jim Anderton’s lengthy report. Statistics are not kept on how many people there are in NZ with this condition though internationally it is believed that NZ and North America have the hightest incidences of it. Compared to comparable countries , children of md/bp parents receive little if any support yet it is known to be a condition which runs in families much the same as alcoholism does.

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  72. JimBWarrior (47 comments) says:

    It’s good to see John-K get his mind off money and onto people. Maybe there is HOPE.

    Suicide is HORRIFIC in New Zealand – The STATS increase yearly – Most Suicides are a direct result of generations of destructive FAMILY Law and Social Policy – Thus I hold the Makers (MP’s) and Purveys (Bureaucrats and their hirelings) of it responsible.

    Onward – Together-4-FAMILY – Jim
    LINK to Suicide Focus on **NZ Fight for Mens Rights in Welfare and Justice** http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/group.php?gid=144582305574160

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  73. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    You would think if the group in society known to be most at risk was known there would be targeted assistance and prevention strategies..The schzophrenics have their own national body and field officers but MDs/Bps have no national body therefore peicemeal and variable levels of assistance throughout the country. Plus millions spent on wholly inadequate tv ads made by bozos who obviously do not understand the condition.

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  74. chris wardill (3 comments) says:

    this is disgusting when the fools in power ignore this suicide epademic. john key really is out of focus when it comes to reality, he prefers to brush things under the carpet, he’s more interested in the houses he owns and the fraudulent $1000 bonus per week he and other ministers scam from renting out one of their luxury homes. i can see through all the fake smiles when he has a camera on him. he knows about the case in my facebook group called “family court bodysnatchers”, he really couldnt care less about the children who are having their heads filled with pc bs. he needs to realize that he is putting people off coming to nz to raise families. why come to nz when the chances are your child will be messed up by the time they get to highschool.

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  75. burt (7,096 comments) says:

    chris wardill

    Flip the talking points flyer up the right way. The intellectual giant Jim Anderton is the man who is most responsible in recent times for the head in the sand attitude we currently have to suicide in NZ. Key is opening up dialogue about it and sure that might make people aware of reality.

    I guess Labour supporters (which I assume you are) are not familiar with reality, hell most of them still think Labour were prudent financial managers and that Helen Clark was honest and had integrity….

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  76. madaleanwitit (1 comment) says:

    where do we get meaning and purpose from… by helping others and have others help you, we need to start caring for each other and loving each other, instead of competing with each other in order to make more money, buy a new tv or a new boat, these material things do not make us happy, its good close caring relationships that do

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  77. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Burt…I have already pointed out a major flaw in Jim’s report…It is such a serious matter..Anyone who has had a loved one commit suicide will tell you it is one of the absolute worst things to go through.

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