The hatred from Iran’s leaders

September 6th, 2010 at 9:43 am by David Farrar

First we have this story:

A senior Iranian cleric, Grand Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, dismissed the Nazi Holocaust of Jews during World War II as a new “superstition” for the West, media reported on Saturday.

“The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this,” he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

“Americans and Westerners are affected by newly appeared superstitions such as the Holocaust,” he said according to ISNA news agency.

“The truth about the Holocaust is not clear, and when the researchers want to examine whether it is true or the Jews have created it to pose as victims, they jail the researchers,” said Makarem Shirazi, who is a “marja,” or among the highest authorities in Shiite Islam.

So he argues the Jews created the Holocaust. Either he is a retarded moron, or he argues this for a reason. I believe it to be the latter – to help recreate the conditions of the 1930s, so there can be another holocaust – this one with nuclear weapons on Israel.

People might say, it is just talk. Well Hitler was just talk when he started blaming it all on the Jews.

And then to remind us how nasty the Iranian regime (which is very different to the Iranian people) is, we have this story:

has reportedly sentenced Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani – the 43-year-old Iranian woman who faces execution after being convicted of adultery – to 99 lashes in prison for “spreading corruption and indecency” after allowing an unveiled picture of herself to be published in a British newspaper. …

What has made the latest charges against her even more extraordinary is the fact that the unveiled photograph in question, published by the Times newspaper on August 28, was not actually of Mohammadi Ashtiani but of another woman, for which the paper has since apologised.

I am not sure what is more appalling – the fact that you can get 99 lashes for not wearing a veil, or the fact she got convicted of this “indecency” when it wasn’t her in the photo – a trivial fact to establish.

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112 Responses to “The hatred from Iran’s leaders”

  1. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    He might have more cred if Muslims hadn’t volunteered to serve in the SS.

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  2. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,870 comments) says:

    You forgot about the US$1,000 paid to the Taliban for every American (and presumably) Kiwi serviceman killed in Afghanistan.

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  3. wreck1080 (3,858 comments) says:

    Just goes to show, the iranians will never be allowed to have nukes.

    The leaders are just bonkers.

    The closest NZ politicians for making outrageous statements, would be Hone Harawira (too numerous to count), and pita sharples (the occasional outrageous statement , such as recently asking the government to help maori gangs to build new headquarters).

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  4. Brian Smaller (4,007 comments) says:

    Expect announcement that Leftist groups, Gay rights activists and Feminist movement will be protesting outside the Iranian Embassy in 3..2…1…nah – just kidding.

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  5. scrubone (3,091 comments) says:

    People might say, it is just talk. Well Hitler was just talk when he started blaming it all on the Jews.

    Exactly. And so many people still to this day don’t get that t9/11 showed us that with modern technology talk can translate into war much easier.

    Which is a large part of why the coalition went to Iraq.

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  6. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Iranian Republican Guards last week: “Incontrovertibly, the fake and inhuman Zionist regime has no other destiny than annihilation and destruction.”

    Iran’s chief of staff, General Hassan Firouzabadi last week: “There is not a place in Israel that is not within the range of our modern [military] apparatus”

    Ahmadinejad on Saturday: “The people of the Middle East are capable of removing the Zionist regime from the world scene”

    … and they, apparently, need nuclear technology to produce electricty… Riiiiight!

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  7. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    I have an idea or two of what they “need” krazy.

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  8. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @murray – I think I know what you’re suggesting! That option aside, I wonder how much covert stuff is going on to destablise the regime from within? Having it fail, and deliberatly replaced with something more suited to the 21st century would be preferable to big red buttons.

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  9. RRM (9,784 comments) says:

    Is this grandstanding really about laying the groundwork for the destruction of Israel, or is it just rabble-rousing to keep the folks at home angry with the state’s official enemies (and therefore in line with the state)?

    When the wheels really fall off the grand European national-debt-go-round, some kind of populist mass expulsion or otherwise “final solution” to the millions of Muslim immigrants in Europe and the UK seems far more likely IMHO…

    [DPF: You think it is more likely that the EU will implement a holocaust against the 20 million Muslim citizens living there, than Iran attacking Israel?

    Fuck that is warped]

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  10. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Is this grandstanding really about laying the groundwork for the destruction of Israel, or is it just rabble-rousing to keep the folks at home angry with the state’s official enemies (and therefore in line with the state)?

    Both.

    When the wheels really fall off the grand European national-debt-go-round, some kind of populist mass expulsion or otherwise “final solution” to the millions of Muslim immigrants in Europe and the UK seems far more likely IMHO

    Can’t see this happening at all.

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  11. Bevan (3,923 comments) says:

    Is this grandstanding really about laying the groundwork for the destruction of Israel, or is it just rabble-rousing to keep the folks at home angry with the state’s official enemies (and therefore in line with the state)?

    Like DPF alluded, wasn’t the same said about Hitler? Weren’t his speeches discarded as mere rabble-rousing?

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  12. tom hunter (4,704 comments) says:

    When the wheels really fall off the grand European national-debt-go-round, some kind of populist mass expulsion or otherwise “final solution” to the millions of Muslim immigrants in Europe and the UK seems far more likely IMHO…

    You’re suggesting that Social Democrats steeped in a cozy welfare society and educated for decades about tolerance and the dangers of nationalism, patriotism and racism, combined with state and intra-state mechanisms like the EU that are designed to prevent the 1930’s/40’s ever arising again – might actually flip into neo-Nazism?

    You’re also suggesting that “rational”, “enlightened” and “post-Christian” Europeans won’t make the transition peacefully and will go through violent upheavals?

    I’d bet on form.

    Although I would also bet on one “youth” versus 10 old codgers on zimmer frames – and in any case I’d also bet that the Jews will be first into the flames as usual – if the contempt fro Jews shown by high-level Europeans like Karel De Gucht are any indication.

    At least the Jews can escape Europe this time to a secure sanctuary and….

    ….Oh.

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  13. backster (2,141 comments) says:

    The United Nations Human Rights Committee, Amnesty International, Moderate Moslem Organisations and others are sure to sponsor and man flotillas of protest vessels to descend on Iran to cause them to mend their ways and release this unfortunate victim of their cruel and barbaric rule.

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  14. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    RRM’s opinion: Muslims saying they are going to commit genocide against Isralis is actually a sign that the west is going to commit genocide against Muslims.

    Murray’s opion: RRM is a delusional moron who will excuse anyone who kills Jews.

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  15. Brian Smaller (4,007 comments) says:

    It would not surprise me if Mossad already has a nuke in place in Tehran. If Iran is foolish enough to attack Israel they will get glassed. Israel may well be fucked by an Iranian nuclear attack but there wont be anyone else in the Middle East picking over the ruins of Israel. Israel has already told Syria that if Hizbollah fires a Syrian-supplied scud from lebanon into Israel that they will return Syria to the Stone Age.

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  16. tom hunter (4,704 comments) says:

    Both

    Indeed: Regime Fearful Of Domestic Opposition

    Given that the West in general and the Great Satan in particular is always going to get blamed for this by the Iranian mullahs, I do hope that the CIA is actually doing something in the background in Iran.

    Still, it’s amazing how “success” for thugs can cower even a majority opposition. That’s why it’s important to deny them success, something the West has visibly failed to do on countless occasions with Iran over the last 30 years. The Mullahs have drawn the appropriate lesson and they’re moving forward faster than ever.

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  17. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Brian Smaller (2,713) Says:
    September 6th, 2010 at 10:08 am
    Expect announcement that Leftist groups, Gay rights activists and Feminist movement will be protesting outside the Iranian Embassy in 3..2…1…nah – just kidding

    Not necessarily Brian.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/what_kind_of_academic_signs_th.html

    Here are the findings. Only thirty of the 675 “self-described social-justice seeking academics” responded, 27 of them agreeing to endorse the Statement. But these 27 signatories represent less than five percent of the 675 contacted. In other words, 95 percent of those who had signed the Lloyd petition censuring Israel for human rights violation did not sign a statement concerning discrimination against women and gays and lesbians in the Middle East.

    Surprised? If so, prepare for yet a bigger surprise. As many as 25 percent of the Lloyd petition-signing academics were faculty associated with gender and women studies departments. Yet of these, only 5 endorsed the Statement calling for attention to the discrimination against women in the Muslim countries of the Middle East. Put more bluntly, 164 of the 169 faculty who had chosen to focus their life’s work on matters affecting women, and who felt comfortable enough to affix their names to Lloyd’s petition censuring Israel, chose not to sign a Statement of Concern about documented human rights violations against gays, lesbians, and women in the Middle East.

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  18. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Nice one Backster

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  19. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    It just goes to show that you actually need to know a little bit about the people you vote for.
    Of course it helps if they don’t tolerate Sharia Law doesn’t it?

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/09/sharia_women_at_risk_1.html

    If you view this video and do not question the perfidy of Rauf, then does your silence indicate approval? If we, in America, do not speak up for these abused and helpless women then are we, too, endorsing what happens to them?

    Couldn’t have said it better myself just put NZ in place of America.

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  20. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Where’s Luc? It’s not sport without his atrocious brand of armchair apologetics

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  21. ciaron (1,418 comments) says:

    I’m certain Pete George can put all this into perspective for us.

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  22. RRM (9,784 comments) says:

    [DPF: You think it is more likely that the EU will implement a holocaust against the 20 million Muslim citizens living there, than Iran attacking Israel?

    Fuck that is warped]

    Iran also knows that every muslim nation that has had a go at Israel, has had it’s arse handed to it.

    I fear that if/when it falls over, the EU will swiftly become nothing more than a pleasant memory. I don’t have to tell you Europe has got form, experience and in fact a long tradition of isolating demonising and getting rid of Jews. All it took last time was a total economic meltdown, a charismatic evil leader and a desperate general population willing to buy into his racism or at least turn a blind eye to it.

    Last time I checked, Europe/UK has:
    (1) already got a groundswell of people who are all bitter & twisted about “all these foreign johnnies coming here and taking our jobs/living in dish cities/wearing burqas on our streets” etc
    (2) a very shaky debt-go-round that could so easily turn into total economic collapse

    So really, the only piece of the jigsaw that’s missing is Hitler, A.

    Fatalistic maybe, but sorry, no I don’t think “fuck that’s warped.”

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  23. Swiftman the infidel (329 comments) says:

    Islam has two archille’s heals:- Pork is like kriptonite to superman and if Mecca was nuked that would prove that Allah is NOT great.

    Yes, I am advocating the destruction of Mecca.

    PS Murray is a tool.

    [DPF: 10 demerits]

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  24. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Iran has it’s problems which we should aid and abet.
    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/09/02/mullah-vs-mullah/print/
    The regime is reacting to the instability with increased oppression. There has been a steady pace of executions and the regime has completely banned [16] news coverage of Mir-Hossein Mousavi, Mehdi Karroubi or Mohammad Khatami. Their names cannot even be mentioned. The Ministry of Education is sending mullahs to the schools to counter Western influence. Security forces are going to popular shopping areas and searching [17] cars driven by youth as Iran. Young Iranians are reportedly being arrested for their attire and what they listen to on the radio. Several converts to Christianity have also [18] been arrested [17] for having Bible discussion groups and services in their homes

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  25. RRM (9,784 comments) says:

    Muslims saying they are going to commit genocide against Isralis is actually a sign that the west is going to commit genocide against Muslims.

    No, not what I said.

    Murray’s opion: RRM is a delusional moron who will excuse anyone who kills Jews.

    LOL. I’m against any killing, but don’t let any actual words of mine get in the way of your prejudice.
    I’m no fan of the intifada. But the only lefties who want the destruction of Israel and death to Jews are the imaginary ones in your head.

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  26. kowtow (8,186 comments) says:

    Relating to Iran here’s one from Al Jaz.Note the charge of “warring against God”.

    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/09/2010941584636601.html

    AJ are interesting,they hate Israel,but being Sunni Arab they hate the Shia Persians too.

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  27. Jimbob (641 comments) says:

    Last count Israel had about twenty five nuclear war heads, and Iran has none. If Iran goes ahead with it’s plan, and no one is standing in the way at the moment, that would take Iran off the map and oil to…. just take a guess. I wouldn’t be borrowing any money from any bank for quite some time. Survival of the fittest.

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  28. Sonny Blount (1,777 comments) says:

    I’m certain Pete George can put all this into perspective for us.

    I’m sure he would ask all many, many pertinent questions and after everybody else researches and replies for him, He could tell us that we are all wrong and every opinion is equally right and that what we should do to rectify the issues is …

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  29. MT_Tinman (3,102 comments) says:

    To a small extent the Grand Ayatollah may have a point.

    Hitler was far from just a rabble-rouser, in fact a skilled and intelligent politician as well as a great orator working a largely uninformed crowd who has been kept to the forefront of infamy mainly by unceasing Jewish efforts without who’s efforts he would be seen as no worse than Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Kaiser Wilhelm, Vorster and various African “leaders”.

    That is where it ends.

    The Grand Ayatollah is obviously none of the above and is preaching to a comparatively few who are already converted.

    Ignoring the prick is the only reaction necessary.

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  30. ciaron (1,418 comments) says:

    @ sonny: :)

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  31. dime (9,796 comments) says:

    where is Luc? did he se ethe thread and pass from excitement?

    RRM – i hope youre right about one thing – the EU becoming a memory!

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  32. ciaron (1,418 comments) says:

    Maybe Pete & luc are having a hug, crying on each others shoulders?

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  33. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    On the button Says

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  34. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    And ciaron and Sonny add nothing at all to the topic. Why don’t you have a go at showing how smart you are about the Middle East and suggest some workable solutions? Neither talking or fighting have achieved a hell of a lot lately. I doubt anyone will win from a nuke attack, it will just make the ME more of a political disaster zone.

    I think it’s probably not a coincidence to see more crap from the Iranian leadership at the same time as the current attempts to get the Palestinian/Israeli peace process moving. Might get a chance to talk it over with my new (Israeli) neighbour sometime, just met him yesterday.

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  35. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    RRM 11:38 am,

    Last time I checked, Europe/UK has:
    (1) already got a groundswell of people who are all bitter & twisted about “all these foreign johnnies coming here and taking our jobs/living in dish cities/wearing burqas on our streets” etc
    (2) a very shaky debt-go-round that could so easily turn into total economic collapse

    You might add:
    3) already has increasing anti-Semitism and many hold views that the Jews are to blame for most of the world’s woes.

    So really, the only piece of the jigsaw that’s missing is Hitler, A.

    I have it on good Authority that there is likely an A. Hitler mkII waiting in the wings to step up when the time is right. And that he will indeed be based in Europe (the revived Roman Empire).

    All we need now is a global police force to back him up (the UN?), and a false religious system to back him up spiritually (Inquisition type persecution of non-adherents).
    Coming soon …

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  36. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    “false religious system” – first word not necessary.

    It’s hard to have any optimism for the ME when you get Iranian leadership confirming it’s provocative diptsickishness, and at the same time:

    We won’t have peace for generations

    Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman on Sunday fiercely attacked the diplomatic process with the Palestinians that Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu began in Washington last week, telling Israel Beiteinu activists in the capital that a peace deal is “unachievable.”

    Israel had already suffered enough from the “adventures and experiments of irresponsible politicians,” he said.

    The speech was seen as an attempt by Lieberman to take advantage of Netanyahu’s leftward shift and win over disgruntled Likud voters.

    Ah, internal political manouvering, that’s far more important than any sort of peaceful solution.

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  37. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Swiftman the infidel 11:39 am,

    Islam has two archille’s heals:- Pork is like kriptonite to superman and if Mecca was nuked that would prove that Allah is NOT great.

    Yes, I am advocating the destruction of Mecca.

    If Israel, the US et al coated their ammo with pork fat that would seriously end much Islamic terrorism. An Islamist dieing from a pork fat coated bullet is made spiritually unclean, and is therefore disqualified from entry to the Islamic paradise. If you want to screw with the mind of your average Islamic terrorist this would be a winner.

    And the fact that Israel exists, and continues to be victorious against the many and ongoing Islamic attacks upon her PROVES Allah is NOT great. For Allah to be a TRUE god and Mohammed a TRUE prophet then Israel must be annihilated and every last Jew must be slaughtered.

    Luckily Israel’s God is the One true God, and He will not permit this to happen.

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  38. Bevan (3,923 comments) says:

    Iran also knows that every muslim nation that has had a go at Israel, has had it’s arse handed to it.

    Someone forgot to tell Hamas and Hizbollah.

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  39. joe90 (273 comments) says:

    [DPF: You think it is more likely that the EU will implement a holocaust against the 20 million Muslim citizens living there, than Iran attacking Israel?

    Fuck that is warped]

    Photos from Pam ‘shrieking harpie’ Geller’s anti-Islam rally.

    Mad Mikes favourite site supporting the English defence league.

    Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center is having a burn a Koran day

    Pastors Terry Jones and some of the congregation of the Dove World Outreach Center, let it all hang out with the N word.

    etc, etc,….

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  40. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 1:10 pm,

    We won’t have peace for generations

    Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman on Sunday fiercely attacked the diplomatic process with the Palestinians that Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu began in Washington last week, telling Israel Beiteinu activists in the capital that a peace deal is “unachievable.”

    Actually, Pete, I might amend the statement from “We won’t have peace for generations” to “We won’t have peace …ever”.
    While Israel exists peace is impossible as Israel’s enemies DEMAND her destruction. And as Israel will NEVER be destroyed (according to my reliable authority) then there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East. QED.

    [Well there will be, but it will only happen AFTER Israel's enemies are destroyed - and it's not far off.]

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  41. kowtow (8,186 comments) says:

    The Left are out to vilify Israel. Otherwise what good reason does the Scottish TUC have to rabble rouse with sectarian lunatics? See 3rd paragraph from the end.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/jmacmillan/100046348/celtic-fans-need-to-ditch-their-shady-pro-terrorist-sympathies-and-return-to-their-catholic-roots/

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  42. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Today’s religions were born in the ME, and with entrenched dogmas exhibited by the mullahs and Krises it sounds like religion will have to die in the ME before any real progress can be made.

    With people believing like KK and actively wishing for the worst to happen to try and prove their predictions were right it’s hard to have any optimism for the ME. Our best hope might be that the self fulfilling prophecies don’t spill too far further afield.

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  43. joe90 (273 comments) says:

    kowtow, a recent post from Harry’s Place notes that the anti Israel stance of some cannot be attributed to everyone on the left

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  44. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 1:46 pm,

    With people believing like KK and actively wishing for the worst to happen …

    Whatever I do or don’t wish for will have little to do with what goes down in the Middle East, Pete.
    But lets just say I have inside knowledge from the One who will ultimately oversee the final outcome …

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  45. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    kowtow 1:35 pm,

    From your link:

    When Celtic faced FC Hapoel of Tel Aviv recently, the Scottish TUC organized a huge anti-Israeli demonstration at the Glasgow leg, and recruited many eager Celtic fans to wave Palestinian and Hamas flags at the visitors. The sight of my fellow Celtic supporters goading our Jewish guests with anti-Semitic howls and insults was deeply shaming. [...]

    For the sake of our reputation, Celtic fans need to reflect on the appalling political allegiances that they have made over the years. There is a clear necessity for a radical reassessment of the shadier aspects of Celtic’s “culture”. For a start, my fellow fans could ditch their copies of Socialist Worker and An Phoblacht, and get back to the original values of the club’s Catholic founder. That might mean finding new reading materials – the Gospels, for example. And it would also mean getting back to attending Mass and Confession.

    Of course the Roman Catholic church doesn’t exactly have a glowing testimony regarding her views and past treatment of the Jews (and Israel). And so “getting back” to their Catholic roots might not exactly solve their current anti-Semitism …

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  46. kowtow (8,186 comments) says:

    Yes Joe ,but the question was what are the trade unionists playing at?

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  47. joe90 (273 comments) says:

    trade unionists playing at

    Trade unionists aren’t mentioned in the blog post kowtow, only the author wishing his fellow Celtic
    fans could ditch their copies of Socialist Worker and An Phoblacht, and get back to the original values of the club’s Catholic founder. That might mean finding new reading materials – the Gospels, for example. And it would also mean getting back to attending Mass and Confession.

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  48. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    You don’t have “inside knowledge” Kris – you have access to the same over-interpreted ancient writings that billions of others have. You just put your own spin on it.

    The sad thing is that:
    – people who think that terrorist actions will reward them in their afterlife don’t care about earthly consequences
    – people who think widespread catastrophe will reward them in their afterlife can contribute to letting that happen

    Too many people seem to believe that “while Israel exists peace is impossible” so they won’t do anything to achieve peace, and many actively ensure there won’t be peace.

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  49. kowtow (8,186 comments) says:

    Duh Joe, Scottish TUC…….

    Google their website for antIsrael tactics,too easy.

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  50. alimostofi (1 comment) says:

    We Iranians have our own non-violent morality as enshrined in The Zend-Avesta. The regime is not Iranian, and the world should treat them as aliens.

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  51. ciaron (1,418 comments) says:

    And ciaron and Sonny add nothing at all to the topic. Why don’t you have a go at showing how smart you are about the Middle East and suggest some workable solutions?

    Like your workable solutions there Pete?

    I wish it weren’t so but the situation will only be resolved when a) hostilities against Israel are escalated to full scale, or b) when the Arab states put down their guns & stop firing rockets from schools on the gaza strip.

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  52. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    I suspect it’s a bit more complicated than that.

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  53. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Ciaron
    You are on to it.
    Either Israel wins and has safety with no attacks or the Islamists win and Israel is no more.
    Why?
    because Israel is an affront to islam and her Prophet and will always remain so as long as she exists.

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  54. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    It’s so nice that you guys think of me when I am doing the busy house hubby thing – Early Childhood Centre in the morning, feeding and entertaining toddler then putting her down for sleep, housework, roast chicken dinner for hard working wife and her not-so-hard-working student son, not to mention negotiating my next contract deal-phew! I’m munted! But here goes…

    My first thought when I saw this post was – why does a government as rational and pragmatic as any in the West but seemingly as totalitarian as China allow this sort of nonsense to hit the airwaves? Puzzling. Except in the context of domestic politics. Anyone remember “…bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran”? However, we should all remember that polls consistently show that Iranians do not hate the West, yet.

    Then I saw DPF telling us that this was an early warning sign of the next Holocaust. Hilarious. Something to remember about the Holocaust is that it was European on fellow European. Not an Arab or Persian in sight at Hitler’s Cabinet table. Just when have Arabs or Persians carried out Holocaust-sized exterminations of Europeans? Much more likely to be the reverse, surely.

    And you will get no argument from me about the barbarity of the literal interpretation of Sharia that sees this woman in danger of a most horrific death at the hands of her government. I will happily join any protest in Auckland to ram home to the Mullahs that this behaviour actually transgresses the principles of the UN, of which they are proud to be a member.

    But she has had a trial. Obama has sentenced a US natural born citizen, Al Awlaki, to death at the earliest convenience, in any jurisdiction, with no proof of any imminent threat from him and with no trial, and just attempting to represent him is a crime in the US (under challenge).

    Let’s make that demonstration kill two birds with one stone and call by the US representative as well.

    But I will concede that Al Awlaki’s death is likely to be swifter than that poor woman’s. Does that make it more acceptable?

    And a little history lesson wouldn’t go astray – Iran was a fully democratic nation until the Prime Minister, a time Man of the Year, was overthrown in a coup orchestrated by the CIA and Britain. Iran’s heinous sin was nationalising the Iranian oil industry. We foisted the brutal, mass murdering Shah on those poor suckers, then wonder why they turned to religion!

    I’m not getting into the Israel thingy – most of you are just plainly insanely racist Arab haters of the worst kind.

    It was an uplifting night at the Dogs Bollix last night at the fundraiser for Kiaoragaza. I had a nice night dancing with the toddler – well, her version of dancing, which is pretty much just laps of the floor, flat out! I must have missed the fellow Kiwibloggers who popped in. Sorry about that.

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  55. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Bollocks Mike. People could learn to live together with different beliefs, if they chose. If it wasn’t for extreme Jews, extreme Muslims, and extreme Christians always wanting to stir until they win. You and Kris have intentions no better than the Iranian mullahs.

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  56. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    And let’s not forget the mad Rabbis!

    1. http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/08/201082913280929137.html

    2. http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7301

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  57. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    I’m calling kk’s law on this thread.

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  58. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    The sad thing in this is that it is trying purely to upset the peace process – renewed after two years of refusal to to talk to Israelis.

    I really wonder about the left – all pro peace and anti violence and all… 9 violent attackers on boats force Israelis to defend themselves and the whole worlds media blows up. 5 innocent men and (pregnant) women, murdered in cold blood to disrupt peace talks and … silence. What a disparity.

    If the left were really pro peace they would be fully supporting both nations to sit and negotiate a real, diplomatic peace. It’s pretty clear though that the left are totally against any peace which leaves Israel as a sovereign nation… What hypocrites.

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  59. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    The message is obvious.

    NZ needs to allow a few Million Iranians to give them safe haven.

    It is the right thing to do.

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  60. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    It’s pretty clear though that the left are totally against any peace which leaves Israel as a sovereign nation

    What sweeping bullshit. Of course “the right” are totally for peace aren’t they – except when they start all the wars.

    The continued depiction of one against the other, friend against enemy, left against right, Jew/Christian against Muslim, good against evil, that is one of the biggest root causes of problems we have, in NZ and worldwide.

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  61. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    Herr Klark would have brought a lot more Muslims in. It would have so helped with getting her next lined up job at the UN.

    I would be interested in Goffs view of inbound immigration.

    What ratio would be for Refugees versus say Skills.

    Is there still a policy of active discrimination at the heart of Labour.

    No more Poms/Canadians/White SAFAs. But a shift back to Iraqis/Afghans/Somalians/Ethiopians/ etc.

    This is just ideal for the Country. The latter category fitting in so well culturally and being a force for economic growth.

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  62. ciaron (1,418 comments) says:

    Still waiting on that solution Pete.

    Sac up and put your money where your mouth is instead of being such an evasive prick.

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  63. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    krazykiwi 10:59 pm,

    I’m calling kk’s law on this thread.

    You really should call it “Krazy’s Law” – I hate receiving credit for other people’s work ;)

    But I do agree entirely with the law, and may cite it occasionally.

    kk’s law: That leftists are always the first to accuse other’s of being racist.

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  64. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Ciaron the solution is for people to stop being so abusive towards others.

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  65. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 7:30 am,

    “It’s pretty clear though that the left are totally against any peace which leaves Israel as a sovereign nation.”

    What sweeping bullshit. Of course “the right” are totally for peace aren’t they – except when they start all the wars.

    The continued depiction of one against the other, friend against enemy, left against right, Jew/Christian against Muslim, good against evil, that is one of the biggest root causes of problems we have, in NZ and worldwide.

    So the right starts all wars? Hmmm, I think not.
    I think the Muslim world declared war first when it blew up a couple of towers, etc on sovereign US soil – and let’s not forget London and Madrid.
    And, of course, all major wars involving Isreal (”48, ”67, ”73, etc) were reactive to Islamic aggression from those nations around her; and each time she was fighting for her very survival.

    No doubt your solution, Pete, is to put your head in the sand whilst humming Kumbaya, or, at best, to do a Neville Chamberlain in attempts to appease your enemies. As I’ve said before; we need more Winston Churchill’s to get the job done – those who can see through the lies and deceit of the enemy, and take action as necessary. In my opinion, sitting around the table with Islamists/terrorists is a complete waste of time, and will only forestall the inevitable. Israel’s starting to wake up to this – we need to as well.

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  66. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    alimostofi 7:25 pm,

    We Iranians have our own non-violent morality as enshrined in The Zend-Avesta. The regime is not Iranian, and the world should treat them as aliens.

    Yes, I understand that Zoroastrianism was the earlier religion of Iran, and that the Islamic usurpers are only ‘recent’ arrivals. Sadly, Islam only understands violence and conquest – and this becomes apparent as Islam gains ascendency within a host nation. Many of us here see Islam as the problem, and that it certainly doesn’t represent the views of all Iranians.

    As a Christian I recognise the spirit behind Islam – that it is an evil and satanically inspired relgion set on global domination and the submission/slaughter of all non-Muslims.

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  67. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Kris, you keep bringing up Neville Chamberlain as the explanation for just about everything. WWII and the rest of the world’s conflicts over the duration of human existence are a bit more complicated than you seem to realise. WWI was largely WWI part 2, so Churchill tidied up some of the mess he had earlier a part of.

    It is not about appeasing enemies, it is about trying not to have enemies in the first place. It’s hard to see that happening with so many ultra religious people in the world who don’t want to accept anything but their way.

    You keep going on about Muslims wanting to take over the world and kill everyone they oppose, and seem oblivious to the similarity when you keep stating your expectation all your enemies will be wiped out so you can go to heaven victorious. Head, sand, you.

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  68. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 10:48 am,

    It is not about appeasing enemies, it is about trying not to have enemies in the first place. It’s hard to see that happening with so many ultra religious people in the world who don’t want to accept anything but their way.

    So, Pete, how would you have dealt with Hitler when he was on the rise?
    And how would you deal with an enemy sought on your total annihilation as confronts Israel from the Muslim world?
    Come on, man-up and give us some real solutions, not just platitudes.

    You keep going on about Muslims wanting to take over the world and kill everyone they oppose, and seem oblivious to the similarity when you keep stating your expectation all your enemies will be wiped out so you can go to heaven victorious. Head, sand, you.

    So are you in denial about “Muslims wanting to take over the world and kill everyone they oppose” despite numerous statements by Muslim governmental and spiritual leaders, and not forgetting the Koran and Hadith, which have been made in confirmation in recent times?

    And I think very few Christians actually want to take over the world, Pete – our hope is more a heavenly one. The promise is more that God’s and Israel’s enemies WILL BE wiped out physically when Christ intervenes to save Israel at the battle of Armageddon – when those who hate God come against Israel (God’s chosen people) to destroy her.

    If you survive the 70th week of Daniel (especially the second half; the Great Tribulation), you might get to see it, Pete – sadly, I won’t be here.

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  69. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    It’s a bit late to come up with solutions for WW1 and WW2.

    What are your solutions for avoiding the battle of Armageddon? I mean realistic ones, not just talking everyone into believing the same as you and smiting all potential enemies.

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  70. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 11:29 am,

    It’s a bit late to come up with solutions for WW1 and WW2.

    Trouble is, Pete, history has a habit of repeating itself – especially if we don’t learn from it.
    And let’s be clear; Hitler mk II (the Antichrist) will be like the first Hitler on steroids.
    I believe that he will possibly be Muslim – my personal theory, nothing more.

    What are your solutions for avoiding the battle of Armageddon? I mean realistic ones, not just talking everyone into believing the same as you and smiting all potential enemies.

    There are no solutions – it will happen – it’s just a matter of when. God’s/Israel’s enemies (Antichrist, Muslims, et al) will force God to intervene to save his people (Israel; the Jews) – which He has promised to do. Most of the world’s nations (including Israel’s traditional allies) will come against Israel as she will be seen (falsely) to be the stumbling block to world peace – well that will be the argument, anyway.

    You really should read the Bible, Pete, especially Daniel, Matthew 24, and Revelation. It really is like reading about current events as they unfold. God said He would prove Himself by fulfilled prophecy – that He is showing us what will come to pass is beyond doubt IMHO.

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  71. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Kris
    Good point, where does NT Christian mainstream push submission and conquering peoples and places like Islam does

    Pearls before swine Kris.

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  72. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    There are no solutions – it will happen – it’s just a matter of when.

    Maybe that’s what Chamberlain thought.

    The Bible or Nostradamus? Both good for recognising predictions after the fact.
    Unless enough fools are sucked into playing along with self fulfilling prophesies, and help make it happen.

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  73. Chthoniid (2,035 comments) says:

    @MikeNZ

    Christianity was spread by force of arms Mike, from Constantine, through to Charlemagne and eventually the conquest of the Americas. In the end, both Islam and Christianity progressed by the same means- by forcing the submission of local peoples to religious and military authority.

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  74. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    NZ needs to allow a few Million Iranians to give them safe haven.

    I wonder how much better NZ would fare if we gave refuge to a few million Israeli’s, given that:

    Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world.

    Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation in the world – by a large margin.

    Israel has the highest number of scientists and technicians per capita in the world – by a large margin.

    Israel has the highest number of engineers per capita in the world.

    Israel has the highest number of PhD’s per capita in the world.

    Israel has the highest number of physicians per capita in the world.

    Israel has the largest percentage of it’s workforce employed in technical professions in the world.

    Israel has the largest number of start up companies per capita in the world.

    Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies outside of the US and Canada .

    Apart from the Silicon Valley , Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world.

    The cell phone was developed in Israel at Motorola’s largest development centre.

    The first anti-virus software for computers was developed in Israel in 1979.

    Both the Pentium-4 and Centrino processors were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel ..

    The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

    Israel has the highest number of home computers per capita in the world.

    Israel has more museums per capita than any other nation in the world.

    Israel has more orchestras per capita than any other nation in the world.

    Israel publishes more books per capita than any other nation in the world.

    Israel publishes more books translated from other languages than any other nation in the world.

    Israel reads more books per capita than any other nation in the world.

    Israel’s dairy cows are the most productive dairy cows in the world. They average 25,432 pounds of milk per cow per year, compared to just 18,747 pounds from American cows; 17,085 from Canadian cows; 13,778 from European Union cows; 10,207 from Australian cows; and 6,600 from Chinese cows.

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  75. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 12:16 pm,

    The Bible or Nostradamus? Both good for recognising predictions after the fact.

    Prove to me where God in the Bible got it wrong just once – these aren’t predictions, they are historical fact – they happened, and are continuing to happen before our very eyes.
    ********

    Chthoniid 12:21 pm,

    You’re confusing Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

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  76. RRM (9,784 comments) says:

    MikeNZ – The “peaceful” conversion of Central and South America being but one beautiful example of christianity’s goodness?

    The Church of Hypocrisy has spread far too much death & destruction in the world to claim any moral high ground here.

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  77. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    krazykiwi 12:27 pm,

    I wonder how much better NZ would fare if we gave refuge to a few million Israeli’s, given that:

    It might even result in a reduction in the number of earthqukes we are suffering from recently ;)

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  78. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    RRM 12:28 pm,

    You, too, are confusing Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

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  79. eszett (2,396 comments) says:

    Prove to me where God in the Bible got it wrong just once

    Right in the very first sentence.

    “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

    Not true. There you go.

    But then again, it was written by humans who just imagined a god.

    You’re confusing Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

    It is amusing to see how bitterly divided you are even within Christianity. All believe the same old book of superstition and myths, yet the interpretation is so different.

    “My interpretation of nonsense is vastly superior to your interpretation of nonsense.”

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  80. Chthoniid (2,035 comments) says:

    @Kris K

    Prove to me where God in the Bible got it wrong just once – these aren’t predictions, they are historical fact – they happened, and are continuing to happen before our very eyes.

    Well, obviously generic statements about famines, earthquakes and wars are so vague, and without specific substance, that anybody can make these without demanding divine explanation.

    Matthew 24 shows that divine inspiration (sic) can still make one look like a complete, ignorant moron. Consider the whole stars falling to earth shtick. That’s because he made it up. He thought that stars were small twinkly lights affixed to a solid firmament in the sky.

    Getting even our nearest star to fall to earth- 4.2 to 4.4 bn light years away- is never going to happen. It’s complete garbage.

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  81. Chthoniid (2,035 comments) says:

    You, too, are confusing Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

    Hmm, you all believe that a man lived in a fish for 3 days.
    See, it works like this. It’s like a movie trilogy, and everybody looks like a bunch of fanboys arguing over which is the superior version.
    Jews think that the first movie/testament was the best, Christians think that their sequel was better and the Muslims think their final sequel is even better yet. The Mormon bible sneaks in as fan faction.

    It’s still all the same Yaweh, the same guy who commits the greatest acts of (fictional) genocide in history, and you all grovel, kiss his arse and praise him for his mercy, while hoping he doesn’t send you to burn forever in hell. He engineers the murder of babies and you claim he’s the greatest source of love and moral perfection .

    How the hell do you get that stupid?

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  82. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Luc will be excited. The prospect of another holocaust inches closer:

    Iran on brink of nuclear weapon, warns watchdog

    Iran has passed a crucial nuclear threshold, weapons inspectors have warned, and could now go on to arm an atomic missile with relative ease.

    A report by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said Iranian nuclear scientists had made at least 22 kilograms of enriched uranium at least 20 per cent purity, a technical hurdle that is the hardest to overcome on the way to weapons-grade uranium.

    Experts estimate that 20 kgs of uranium is the minimum required to arm a warhead. The uranium would still need to have its purity raised to 90 per cent, but that is a relatively easy process.

    The agency’s report comes in spite of the recent imposition at the United Nations of a fresh round of sanctions against Iran and will heighten fears of an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear plants. The prospect of an attack had receded only recently with American assurances that Tehran was more than a year away from acquiring a bomb.

    The Vienna-based nuclear watchdog said Tehran had maintained its absolute defiance of international pressure to curb its programme despite the imposition of harsh sanctions in May. The IAEA has grown increasingly alarmed at Iran’s behaviour and the latest report, which will be presented to the agency’s governors at a meeting next week, lambasted Tehran on a series of fronts.
    […]

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  83. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Chthoniid 1:04 pm,

    How the hell do you get that stupid?

    You stick to your fantasies, Evo-man, I’ll stick to mine.

    [Evo-man: the latest incarnation of Spiderman - here to save us from the evil creationists - "Thank God".]

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  84. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @Chthoniid, I’ll never prove to you that God exists, nor will you prove to me that he doesn’t. So that debate isn’t one that can go anywhere. My Christian faith draws of real life experience that I don’t expect anyone else to understand.. because few are looking or interested in anything other than discrediting. For the record I have seen prayers answers (quite miraculously!) and plenty that are not. I feel a deep sense of peace and contentment that others could attribute to personality.. but I know better.

    As to the fish, yes, there are a bunch of apparent contradictions in the Bible and quite a few inexplicable stories. I keep a pretty open mind about what’s literal and what’s figurative and instead look at what the stories suggest about the character of God and how they suggest I should live my life.

    The central message of the Christian faith is that believers are to use Christ’s life as a model, and to become more like Him. Based on what I read of His life, the world would be a significantly better place if those that work hard to bash believers instead focused those energies on becoming more like Christ.. even in the absence of any belief that He was who He claimed to be.

    So am I stupid? You might think so.. and I’m ok with that :)

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  85. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    That sounds fair enough to me krazy, you get something positive out of your beliefs, that’s a good thing.

    Based on what I read of His life, the world would be a significantly better place if those that work hard to bash believers instead focused those energies on becoming more like Christ

    I agree with that to an extent, especially if “becoming more like Christ” can also be “becoming more like the known ideals of Christ”.

    Do you think the following can be applied equally?

    The world would be a significantly better place if those that work hard to bash those with different beliefs instead focused those energies on becoming more like Christ.

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  86. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @Pete, Jesus was an early liberator of women. He spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well, when she shunned by others because of her race and gender. Even speaking with her was a big cultural no-no, yet he did just that. So speaking out against Islam with its inextricably linked barbaric treatment of women is to become more like Christ. For the record I believe Islam represents a threat to peace, equality and quality of life. You might argue that doesn’t apply here in NZ, to which I’ll suggest that’s not that point in an uber-connected world. So what you might like to tag as ‘bashing’ I’ll regard as giving voice to concerns.

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  87. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Thanks for the reply Chthoniid et al.
    # Chthoniid (1,365) Says:
    September 7th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
    @MikeNZ
    Christianity was spread by force of arms Mike, from Constantine, through to Charlemagne and eventually the conquest of the Americas. In the end, both Islam and Christianity progressed by the same means- by forcing the submission of local peoples to religious and military authority.

    Sadly You get a fail for not reading the exam question properly and submitting your own answer (that is a complete fail by the way), whether that was deliberate or not I can’t definitely say.
    so here it is again.
    Good point, where does NT Christian mainstream push submission and conquering peoples and places like Islam does?

    Pearls before swine Kris.

    I’ve read the NT through at least once a year over the past decade or so and nowhere have I found that Paul or any of the other writers call for murdering, sacking and making people submit by force and Jesus never ever said that or anything remotely like that did he?

    I am open to your guidance on this, but as it is He whom you will kneel before on the last day, I think your problems go a little bit deeper than textual analysis.

    Clearly you erred or you have closed minds and ignore the NT Christian mainstream part of the question and portray the Roman Catholic Church as being representative of Christ and Christianity which it isn’t and never has been.

    I think I and Kris have been on record a number of times with you all over the past year on this issue, obviously to no avail.

    Therefore I stand by my last sentence for you and anyone else with a closed mind towards God.

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  88. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Krazy, you wouldn’t speak to a Muslim at the well when they were shunned by others because of their religion?
    Would Christ have?

    For the record, I don’t think that “Islam” is the problem. Quite a few people who are Muslims are a problem, as are quite a few people who are Christian and quite a few people that are neither Muslim or Christian.

    Talking about records, some Christians don’t have great records either when it comes to barbarity and mistreatment, including of women.

    It’s not religions, or races, or nationalities that are the problem- it’s how people use religion as excuses for saying and doing crappy things.

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  89. Repton (769 comments) says:

    The central message of the Christian faith is that believers are to use Christ’s life as a model, and to become more like Him.

    For the record I believe Islam represents a threat to peace, equality and quality of life.

    So what should we do?

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  90. tom hunter (4,704 comments) says:

    In the end, both Islam and Christianity progressed by the same means- by forcing the submission of local peoples to religious and military authority.

    True. In most cases it was difficult, even impossible, to separate the state from the church. As a result the interests of the leaders of nations and empires often coincided with the interests of the church.

    However, there was eventually a separation of church and state, often driven by both external secular forces and from within the churches themselves. On that latter point it should be noted that one of the reasons that so many religious groups in America went along with the constitutional separation of church and state in the first place was that – although it meant that they could not force their beliefs on other religions when they got their hands on the levers of power – they in turn would not be dominated by other religious believers who rose to power. The Quakers especially appreciated that, not to mention English Catholics and French Protestants when they came on the scene.

    The problem is that Islam has no such separation – at least not theologically or in the written word. There is no “Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser’s” piece to act as even a foundation. I’d appreciate any Koranic experts pointing out such sections and explaining how they can be used to argue for such a separation. Where Islam does rub alongside a secular state (Indonesia, Bangladesh) it appears to be more a matter of local culture and recent military dictatorship having suppressed Islam (and in the case of Turkey and a few others that appears to be slipping away). That’s why, when Islamists begin to insist that the Koran be followed precisely and in totality in running a society – so that not just mosques but all the civil institutions are run according to their book – there is nobody within Islam who can disagree without becoming an apostate.

    Quite a few people who are Muslims are a problem,

    it’s how people use religion as excuses for saying and doing crappy things.

    Yes – but again the fundamental difference from Christianity, even the Christianity of several hundred years ago, is that the Koran is not being twisted out of all recognition in supporting these crappy things. Islamists are not using the words as an excuse, they are being true to the word, and with the exception of a few Imams who’ve declared the occasional fatwa on terrorist activities – there is no identifiable group within global Islam that is actually pushing and arguing against the Islamists. You could point to the Sufi’s I suppose, but those poor buggers spend most of their time keeping their heads down in the Islamist world. I can’t see them nailing any list of objections to the Kaaba.

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  91. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Repton 3:11 pm,

    So what should we do?

    Yep, turning the other cheek is appropriate some of the time, and sometimes we (Christians) are to model ourselves on what Christ did in other circumstances:

    Joh 2:15 And when he [Christ] had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;

    And by the way, when Christ comes back next time it will be as the Lion of the tribe of Judah – and He won’t be doing a lot of “cheek turning”, so to speak.

    And on a personal note, and as a Christian, I would have no trouble conscience-wise with going to war to protect my country if it came down to that.
    Afterall, there is a season for all things:
    “A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
    A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
    A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.”

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  92. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    tom hunter 5:23 pm,

    I can’t see them nailing any list of objections to the Kaaba.

    Very good, Tom ;)
    It’s hard to imagine a Muslim version of Luther rising up in opposition to accepted Islamic teaching.

    [And as I'm sure you're aware, Islam and Roman Catholicism actually have much in common historically in the global domination stakes. And some might say this hasn't changed a whole lot and the only thing holding back the RC church is the lack of opportunity and miliatary alliances (which she had in the past).]

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  93. Chthoniid (2,035 comments) says:

    @Tom Hunter

    The problem is that Islam has no such separation – at least not theologically or in the written word. There is no “Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser’s” piece to act as even a foundation. I’d appreciate any Koranic experts pointing out such sections and explaining how they can be used to argue for such a separation.

    yes, I’ve argued before that Islam has more challenges achieving a secular state than Western states did. Nonetheless, this is the wrong question.

    Islam does not depend solely on the Qu’ran for the source of theological insight. The ‘spirit’ of Allah, persists within the Islamic world. After the death of Allah, the Caliphs inherited this spirit, and dispute over its adoption led to the famous murder of Allah’s uncle (the 4th Caliph) Ali. Within the Sunni community, this spirit passes through the community at large (with different sects defining ‘community’ differently. Hanafi are fairly liberal & broad, Wahabbists are rather narrow. Within Shi’ism, this spirit proceeds via Imams, or personal leaders (like the Ayatollah Khomeni).

    This creates some scope for more liberal interpretations of Islamic faith. The Hanafi for instance, were quite militant in the 12th C and champions of the Seljuqs. In the 20th C, they’re pretty liberal, many drink alcohol, women wear mini-skirts etc.

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  94. Lucia Maria (2,281 comments) says:

    Christianity was spread by force of arms Mike, from Constantine, through to Charlemagne and eventually the conquest of the Americas. In the end, both Islam and Christianity progressed by the same means- by forcing the submission of local peoples to religious and military authority.

    LOL!

    I’ll grant you Charemagne, but the rest … LOL!

    There were many conversions of whole countries when the leaders took on Christianity, voluntarily. Examples abound to those who want to look.

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  95. Chthoniid (2,035 comments) says:

    @Lucia Maria

    The conquest of the Americas by the conquistadors was a holocaust of genocidal proportions, undertaken by vile men with despicable religious motives.

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  96. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    undertaken by vile men with despicable religious motives

    Hmmm, I had thought the conquistadors were mostly tasked with economic plunder

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  97. Lucia Maria (2,281 comments) says:

    LOLOLOLOLOL!

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  98. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Krazy, you may have missed a couple of earlier questions:
    You wouldn’t speak to a Muslim at the well when they were shunned by others because of their religion?
    Would Christ have?

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  99. Lucia Maria (2,281 comments) says:

    Ok, now that I’ve calmed down.
    Cuthbert, you really need to look up “Black Legend”.

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  100. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria 7:17 pm,

    Ok, now that I’ve calmed down.
    Cuthbert, you really need to look up “Black Legend”.

    … and you really need to read Dave Hunt’s “A Woman Rides the Beast”, and Foxes “Book of Martyrs” Lucia. Not comfortable reading for a Roman Catholic whose faith is in her church, and not primarily the word of God.
    A quick consideration of the genocide perpetrated by many of your popes compares well with atrocities carried out by Hitler.

    [After that bomb I'm off for the night]

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  101. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Funny thing is, Kris K keeps promoting his sub version of religion as the only true and correct one, but he doesn’t give any indication of which one he is talking about. The Anonymous Sect?

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  102. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    ““My interpretation of nonsense is vastly superior to your interpretation of nonsense.”

    Totally agree. Cults in Christianity totally bring down God ‘s name, let alone the stars, which btw, is never mentioned in scripture that they fall to the Earth.

    Histories are what make or break truth.

    People won’t study histories. If they did they would flee the Catholic Church like it is a disease the way the Bible tells them to.

    Christ said He is the truth. THat is what His church is built on …Him, not a sinful mortal man .

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  103. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Krazy, you may have missed a couple of earlier questions: You wouldn’t speak to a Muslim at the well when they were shunned by others because of their religion? Would Christ have?

    I have several friends who are Muslim and I’ve spent time working with a whole bunch Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia. Actually the Malaysia work included Seiks… and man they can drink! So not sure what your point is. To your second question, I suspect Christ would have chatted quite amiably, but you’ll have to ask Him :)

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  104. tom hunter (4,704 comments) says:

    Islam does not depend solely on the Qu’ran for the source of theological insight.

    This creates some scope for more liberal interpretations of Islamic faith

    Thanks Chthonid. Always good to learn something new.

    Nonetheless, this is the wrong question.

    I think that the first two quotes from your reply are actually reasons as to why it is the right question – which is to say that whether a ‘liberal’ interpretation of Islam can be arrived at is not really the point I’m getting at.

    The point is whether such interpretations can then be used to build a separation of church and state, in particular one that can be supported theologically by the religion or religions in question and supported permanently. Feeling comfortable because alcohol and mini-skirts are permitted to be worn by some religious authority is no comfort if those religious authorities control the civil institutions in ways that I can’t. If the ‘spirit’ of Allah moves in a different direction in future I and my mini-skirted infidel whore could be in trouble.

    I’m no more interested in whether the ‘spirit’ of Allah can produce more liberal interpretations of Islam than I am in the eternal battles between Kris K and Lucia over the finer points (chasms?) of Biblical interpretation. I’m interested as to whether there is even a small, but solid, part of Islam that something like a Reformation could be built upon in the same way that Luther could build his 95 thesis by referring back to the bible. I don’t see such, I don’t read about it, and having various sects fight over the inheritance of the spirit does not seem to me to provide it.

    Even my favorite ‘liberal’ Muslins, the Sufis, differ not at all on the basic Islamic idea that Sharia law should be the basis for how to run a society. Niether do your Hanafi.

    For me that is not good enough. Many of these schisms in Islam have been around at least as long as the divisions within Christianity. The latter yielded – in combination with outside secular forces – the basis of our modern Western societies. Surely we could have expected the same from within Islam by now? The fact that we have not leads me to think that we never will.

    Actually -in thinking about Luther and the fact that he waged a theological war to place interpretation of the Bible above the word of popes who inherited the ‘spirit’ of St Peter – we may have to consider the possibility that the written Koran triumphed over the ‘spirit’ of Allah, that Islam has had it’s Reformation and that Sayyid Qutb’s thinking is it!

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  105. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    I think Islam might have missed the boat (ark?) when it comes to reformation. In the modern age you are more likely to see people split between evolved religion, pragmatic religion and no religion as more people become better educated and science puts the squeeze on beliefs, rather than split between the evolved religion and a different direction for the same religion.

    (I say evolved religion because no religion is the same as it was 500, 1000 or 1500 years ago)

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  106. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Krazykiwi’s 12.27pm post is proof positive of of his racism, as if we really need it for him or all the other Islamophobes. But in keeping with the topic of this thread, the laughable fear of Israel being attacked by a nuclear armed Iran, I posted this on my blog sometime ago:

    [blockquote] Talking about nukes, here’s food for thought. One Israeli homegrown (Nobel) winner, Robert Aumann, possesses such prodigious intellect that he justifies genocide with his pet version of game theory.

    Of course, now we see the intellectual basis of Israel’s vociferous objection to Middle East nations acquiring nukes. Mr Aumann proves mathematically that the Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)
    syndrome actually acts to prevent war. Ergo, Israel does not wish to prevent war (with Iran). [/blockquote]

    In plain language, the best way to ensure that Israel is not attacked in accordance with your ridiculous fears is to applaud Iran for developing nuclear weapons (if they actually ever do, which is doubtful) and this is according to one of Israel’s most respected scientists!

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  107. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    TOM
    the 5 central hadiths of traditional Islam are all in sync with apostasy and a woman’s worth in the courtroom (50%), similarly the rights of a Dhimmi.

    This presentation was done for an english conference.
    http://ccfon.org/docs/Final_Sharia_Law_and_English_Law_Table.pdf

    If you want I can look for others.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Islamic_Tolerance
    this links to several good collators of info.

    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/08/27/sharia-for-dummies/
    Nonnie Dawish

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  108. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Luc, my 12:27 comment cataloged a whole bunch of laudable things that Israel is noted for. You really need some new attack lines as the repeated, shrill accusations of racism are just making you look stupid.

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  109. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    The whole book (52 pages).
    http://www.politicalislam.com/pdf/WebSitePDF/ShariaNonMuslim.pdf

    Overview of Sharia and today.
    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-may-20-2010/

    what is sharia?
    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-chapter-2-may-31-2010/

    women!
    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-chapter-3-june-10-2010/

    family law and woe betide being a woman.
    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-chapter-4-family-law/

    you and I, yes kaffir is originally an arabic name not south african!
    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-chapter-5-the-kafir/

    How mosques work in Dawa.
    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-mosque-a-state-within-a-state/

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  110. Chthoniid (2,035 comments) says:

    @Tom Hunter

    Not sure, long term trends for the say 10-12th C Sunni sects have been to become a lot more liberal, irrespective of the waxing and waning of Islamic law. Sharia law is eschewed in liberal Muslim circles (i.e. usually educated, urban types) for a variety of theological reasons, usually because it should not be taken as seriously as say, the Qu’ran or the Islamic spirit within the community.

    Much of the distribution of Islam follows cultural divides- Iran became 12’er Shi’ite despite the earlier Sunni Turkish rulers- as a Persian reaction to their Arab Sunni neighbours in Azerbayjan, Iraq and al-Jezira. These cultural trends are strong factors within the Islamic world.

    By the 19th and early 20th C, many Islamic states were moving away from being overtly religious. Western, more advanced economies, were being imitated and religion was becoming more of a cultural expression, derided by the elites.
    Even in the immediate post war period, such trend continued with the adoption of Socialist ideals, and the formation of Socialist ruling parties in many Near Eastern states.

    The sudden revival of a reactionary type of Islam seems to be driven by two factors. One is Western aggression. The West has undertaken a series of invasions of Islamic states. Continuing the blockade of Iraq after gthe 1st Gulf War greatly elevated civilian losses, with child casualties regarded as particularly abhorrent by Iraq’s neighbours. Israel doesn’t help.

    The second is the most reactionary, fundamentalist Sunni sect (the Wahibbists) went from being a backward, rural relic in the Arabian peninsular to a major force. Oil revenues flowing into Saudi Arabia gave the Wahbbists access to major cash to spend on their propaganda and terrorism.

    Will there be an Islamic reformation? I doubt it. Islam is not a homogenous force, it’s split over many countries and cultures in different sects. But I can’t see why some Islamic states could not become more secular under more benign conditions.

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  111. Pete George (23,436 comments) says:

    Mike, you make it clear frequently that you oppose Islam, you oppose Islamic countries in the Middle East, you oppose Muslims settling in Europe, and you oppose Muslims settling in NZ – in short, you don’t seem to like or trust any Muslims. (I stand to be corrected).

    Opposing remotely is easy. Solutions can be much more difficult.

    What do you propose?
    – all Muslims convert to some brand of Christianity? Or Judaism in the ME?
    – all Muslims adopt a more moderate form of Islam
    – all Muslims become atheists?
    Or what?

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  112. tom hunter (4,704 comments) says:

    Not sure, long term trends for the say 10-12th C Sunni sects have been to become a lot more liberal, irrespective of the waxing and waning of Islamic law.

    Perhaps, and if we were sitting here on September 10, 2001 I could probably have a fairly relaxed attitude about the whole deal – in the same way that I can be a somewhat puzzled observer of some the Christian fights happening here. But the fact is that Islam is not reforming fast enough (if at all) to prevent me entering Islamists’ cross-hairs simply because I decided to board a flight from NY to London.

    One of the things that annoys me about these sorts of threads is the way they always veer off the primary subject – fanatical Muslims hellbent on attaining their fantastical visions of society by the strategic use of violence – to jumping up and down about the things that Kris K (for example) argues for now or what Christians did hundreds or thousands of years ago. The same sort of left-wingers I knew at varsity in the 1980’s – people who ran around with their hair on fire about an aging US President in the thrall of Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians with his finger on the nuclear button – now observe the potential possession of nuclear weapons by a small, messianic cult who believe the End Times will remove it’s idol from occultation, and are now all sophisticated and relaxed about such.

    Not to mention these interesting but sadly irrelevant digressions down the pathways of theological possibilities.

    There is this constant appeal by secular Westerners – particularly the Left – to point at Christianity now or in the past. The comparisons are not accurate except at a superficial, surface level. Moreover I see the Western Left preferring to pour modern theories about post-colonialism and such-like into religious vessels, that would normally send them running for the toilet. The ayatollahs are Saddam are Che are the Contras – at least in terms of how we’re supposed to react to them – which is that they are victims of us and that the things they do are, in large part, reactions to what we have done. As such we have…..

    The sudden revival of a reactionary type of Islam seems to be driven by two factors. One is Western aggression. The West has undertaken a series of invasions of Islamic states. Continuing the blockade of Iraq after the 1st Gulf War greatly elevated civilian losses, with child casualties regarded as particularly abhorrent by Iraq’s neighbours. Israel doesn’t help.

    …as exhibit A of reactionary. Iraq in 2003. Afghanistan in 2001. You could argue whether Gulf War I counted as an invasion since UN troops (including troops from several Arab countries) pushed into the country but made it clear that they were never going to go for a full takeover or unconditional surrender (pity that). But prior to that? What invasions are we talking about – unless you’re counting Israel’s fights?

    Of course the first two I mention happened after 9/11, and the USS Cole, and the US embassies. Which rather raises the point: how far back do we go to assign blame to the West? Sykes-Picot? Perhaps the Arab Bureau that decided to fund and arm Arab tribes in revolt against the Ottoman empire? When I look at the amount of Westernisation that grew in places like Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq (even Afghanistan) and other countries in the ME through the 1950’s and 1960’s I find it hard to explain that happening at the same time that their peoples were supposedly reacting against the Western interventions of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

    Similarly with sanctions on Iraq (I think you’ll find that blockades are far more stringent, which is why they’re regarded as acts of war). Please don’t tell me that you’re going to start talking about the deaths of 500,000 children? That rubbish made for good Western media emoting in the mid-1990’s (and certainly was a propaganda prop gratefully seized by Saddam) but has been very much discredited in the years since. However, your point is less the numbers than the idea that Iraq’s Arab neighbours felt it was abhorrent. Really? None of them seem to have shed many tears about the treatment of the Kurds or the Marsh Arabs by Saddam in the aftermath of Gulf War I. Oil for Food ring any bells? The deliberate undermining of the sanctions by Saddam to enable him to build bigger palaces, the deliberate use of his people as a weapon – I’ve not heard any great regrets and cries of anguish from the Arab world about that, nor the numerous massacres of Muslims by Muslims throughout the ME, not least the actions of Syria and then Black September, where the Jordanians ruthlessly killed Palestinians in 1970. I’ve not seen any Jordanian skyscrapers crashing to earth.

    And all this is before we ask similar questions about other parts of the world that have seen Western interventionist and colonialist excesses at least as great, and possibly far greater, than the ME: Africa, Asia? I’ve not seen a lot of Vietnamese, Hutu or Zulu suicide bombers attacking the West. Or German and Japanese for that matter.

    But even if I agreed that all of the above was a huge factor in the rise of reactionary Islam it would still be completely pointless in dealing with what we have on our hands now. Any number of people pointed out that the Versaille treaty was a disaster in the making that would produce what we now call “blowback”, and that was a solid argument about the rise of the Nazis. It was still a solid argument and reason for their rise even in 1940: it was also completely irrelevant to the question by then at hand.

    If you really want to get a handle on the uselessness of this line of causative thinking take a look at something Osama himself said:

    The British are responsible for destroying the Caliphate system. They are the ones who created the Palestinian problem. They are the ones who created the Kashmiri problem. They are the ones who put the arms embargo on the Muslims of Bosnia so that two million Muslims were killed.

    How did that list of imperialistic interventions get tied up with that bit of scrupulous non-imperial non-intervention?

    The cry of the Western Left is that we must stop doing “it” in order to contain the Islamic fanatics – and the “it” is always their long-held boogeymen of Western intervention (driven by capitalist exploitation of course). Whereas the Islamists generate a never-ending series of “it”s: if it’s not Iraqi babies starving it’s US female soldiers racing across the Saudi desert with their blouses unbuttoned.

    The second is the most reactionary, fundamentalist Sunni sect (the Wahibbists) went from being a backward, rural relic in the Arabian peninsular to a major force. Oil revenues flowing into Saudi Arabia gave the Wahbbists access to major cash to spend on their propaganda and terrorism.

    That I would agree with, and no politician in the US or Europe is willing to confront that fact for fear of undercutting the worlds access to ME oil.

    But I think you’re missing a third and fourth major factor – which I’ll leave for a separate comment.

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