What to do if someone burns 200 Korans?

September 9th, 2010 at 3:11 pm by David Farrar

Appropriate Responses

  1. Burn 200 bibles
  2. Ignore the rantings of a church with only 50 members, of which only 20 are taking part, who only want publicity
  3. Peaceful protest
  4. Condemnation by other religious figures
  5. Do nothing

Inappropriate Responses

  1. Jihad
  2. Turning the media stunt of a dozen demented nutters into the biggest global news story on the planet
  3. Blaming the US Government
  4. Idiot news presenters asking whether the Government will stop the event
  5. Making Koran (or bible) burning a criminal offence
  6. Any threats of violence
  7. Having the UN Secretary-General call the proposed burning “intolerable”

I note that the pastor, Terry Jones, has also said he plans to burn a copy of the Talmud. I doubt that will generate 0.1% of the stories that buring a Koran does.

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108 Responses to “What to do if someone burns 200 Korans?”

  1. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Idiot news presenters asking whether the Government will stop the event”

    They’d be the same “presenters” who said the building of the mosque at Ground Zero was a matter of freedom of religion and a right protected under the American Constitution.

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  2. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    Good post. Though I don’t agree with no 1 of “appropriate responses”. A book burn off is just an escalation of stupidity.

    Now because of the media attention, we can look forward to various Christians being killed in Islamic countries in retaliation.

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  3. jaba (2,096 comments) says:

    it is incredible how these muslim nut jobs have got the west running scared over all sorts of issues .. mind you, the so called pastor seems a moron himself

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  4. Rex Widerstrom (5,330 comments) says:

    Appropriate responses

    6. Buy 200 copies of “Hustler” and do a letterbox drop in the pastor’s neighbourhood.

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  5. jaba (2,096 comments) says:

    in fact, David, they (muslims) may start burning copies of Kiwiblog comments and issuing a jihad on you if you don’t stop hasselling them

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  6. ben (2,414 comments) says:

    i would list among appropriate responses as: do whatever the hell you want, just don’t injure or threaten anybody else. Be grateful you still live in a country free enough to permit doing things that offend others. This time, I am sorry to say, will pass, and acts like this will get you thrown in jail by the state. Most people will cheer.

    Freedom is the right to offend, and to do stupid things, provided they harm nobody else.

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  7. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    One appropriate response might be to encourage more of it and start a Koran import company. There could be an opening for ex couch manufacturers from Dunedin.

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  8. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    I presume there’s no fire restrictions on the method for burning whatever books he chooses to burn. The rest is a complete non-issue, if he owns them he can burn them. An escalation of book burnings could turn into quite an event though.
    Oh to be a religious book seller in that neighbourhood!

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  9. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Buy 200 copies of “Hustler” and do a letterbox drop in the pastor’s neighbourhood.”

    Or you could just do the drop with your old collection Rex. (presuming you’ve finished with them that is)

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  10. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    I do find it ironic that the Muslims in Afghanistan who are disgusted at the thought of the Koran being burned are responding by burning an effigy of a person and the American flag…….

    6. Buy 200 copies of “Hustler” and do a letterbox drop in the pastor’s neighbourhood.

    The muslims would probably burn you for suggesting it.

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  11. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    Appropriate Response

    1. Do whatever it takes via the media to tie this to the Tea Party movement and the Republican Party in the lead-up to the US mid-term elections.

    2. Raaaacist!!

    Inappropriate Response

    1. Asking left-wingers whether their bold, forthright proclamations on the right to free speech, multi-cultural tolerance, and sensitivity – not to mention the need to maintain dialog with the large, moderate majority of religious people while ignoring a small group of fanatics – applies in this case.

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  12. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    Heh, I bet quite a few of the pastor’s neighbours would welcome a free copy of Hustler in their letterbox. Let me know when you’re delivering around Wellington Rex.

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  13. GPT1 (2,106 comments) says:

    I would have to say that the “Pastor” concerned is showing all the bigotory and hate that I despise in radical Islam. Ironic.

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  14. James Stephenson (2,096 comments) says:

    Can’t he do something useful and burn 200 copies of Tony Blair’s memoirs?

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  15. kowtow (7,953 comments) says:

    The pastor is a complete idiot and should be ignored. MSM have “inflamed” the issue and given those that must not be upset the excuse to once again be upset,not that that’s hard.

    Angela Merkel also standing for free speech with another victim of Islamic outrage.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/germany-merkel-to-speak-at-event-honoring-motoonist-kurt-westergaard.html

    Lucia Maria ,I think most of the victims of the inevitable violent backlash will actually be Muslims,while the Christian minorities will be used to keeping a low profile as 1300 years of Islamic domination will have taught them the necessary survival skills. A bit like in Fiddler on the Roof when the Jews knew the Russians were about to come through. Sad.And like the Russian Jews in the end flee to the freedom that the US offered. We see this now in the Middle East with the dwindling traditional Christian communities under pressure from a resurgent Islamism. The cradle of Christianity will soon contain few Christians.

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  16. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    1. Do whatever it takes via the media to tie this to the Tea Party movement and the Republican Party in the lead-up to the US mid-term elections.

    I’m sure you will find some more nutters somewhere to back you up Tom.

    Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck speak out against Pastor Terry Jones’ plans to burn the Koran

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  17. Inventory2 (10,180 comments) says:

    Agree completely GPT1. Terry Jones sounds as though he is more of a cult leader than a pastor. His hate-filled preaching is the antithesis of what Jesus taught.

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  18. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    On Tuesday, MSNBC anchor Keith Olbermann called on Republican politicians to speak out against the Koran-burning rally, pointing to silence from Florida Senate Candidate Marco Rubio and a “no comment” response from a spokesman for George W. Bush.

    “Total silence today from Sarah Palin, Senate Leader Mitch McConnell, House Leader John Boehner, House Whip Eric Cantor, Sen. John McCain,” Olbermann said, urging conservatives to speak up.

    From your link Pete! I see that irony is not a well developed part of your sense of humour!

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  19. Murray (8,842 comments) says:

    Is doing nothing actually a response? Is it a non-response? Are people who are not aware of the entire episode responding by not responding?

    These are important questions than can only be answered by putting a madonna in a jar of piss and defending the rights of another group to be offended by the burning of some wood pulp in bound form.

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  20. Rex Widerstrom (5,330 comments) says:

    Redbaiter says:

    “Buy 200 copies of “Hustler” and do a letterbox drop in the pastor’s neighbourhood.”

    Or you could just do the drop with your old collection Rex. (presuming you’ve finished with them that is)

    That’d be kind of self-defeating, Red. The idea is to enlighten his flock to the pleasure of the flesh and cause them to abandon their book-burning ways and indulge in a spot of healthy hedonism (my observation is that most of these uptight repressed religious types, of whatever persuasion, just need to get laid more often).

    That won’t work if the copies they receive have the pages stuck together :-D

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  21. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    Ah, Tom, I said “I’m sure you will find some more nutters somewhere to back you up Tom.”
    Then posted a link.
    What did you do?

    That’s not irony. But it is funny.

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  22. Swiftman the infidel (329 comments) says:

    Burn baby, burn.

    Fuck Islam.

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  23. backster (2,123 comments) says:

    Inappropriate Responses

    Hijack an airliner and fly it into abuilding.

    Give one of your own women 99 strokes of the lash because some pommie news paper published a photo of someone who resembled her.

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  24. Swiftman the infidel (329 comments) says:

    I’m flicking through a copy of the koran.

    Perhaps 70% of it is a war document of hate against anyone who won’t submit.

    It is so evil that Keith Locke has stated that islam is a religion of peace. I think he has said in the past the same of communism. No more need to be said.

    Fuck islam.

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  25. Steve Wrathall (261 comments) says:

    Book burning is not a good look.
    But not nearly as bad a look as the craven dhimmitude that has characterised the media treatment of Islam ever since the Rushdie death sentence.

    Don’t say they’re violent or they’ll kill you.

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  26. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    Note to self:
    when next addressing Pete George ensure that the /sarc tag is used as required.

    But it does raise another possibility:

    Appropriate Response:

    2. Make absolutely sure that the discussion remains focused around the right-wing reaction to this story: right-wing comments (or lack of), Christian reactions, what right-wingers and Christians are going to do about it, etc. Under no circumstances engage in discussion of the Islamist reaction to the story.

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  27. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    Actual Responses:

    Every man, woman, and pope has a say, the most outlandish of which are amplified by the media and bloggers.
    /sarc

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  28. Rex Widerstrom (5,330 comments) says:

    Bevan notes:

    6. Buy 200 copies of “Hustler” and do a letterbox drop in the pastor’s neighbourhood.

    The muslims would probably burn you for suggesting it.

    I think you may have inadvertently come up with the formula for lasting religious peace, Bevan. Nothing unites two foes like a common enemy!

    If I air drop containers of spank mags into the West Bank, Kabul, Georgia, Florida etc etc we’ll see the fundamentalists Muslims and the fundamentalist Christians burning the same books. I can just imagine the scene as their hate-filled eyes meet across their blazing bonfires and, realising they have more in common than they ever believed, they put aside their weapons and embrace…

    Join me now, brothers and sisters! Why, Ozzy Osborne has even designed our wristbands!

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  29. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    :) – that’s very funny Rex. But it’s religious fantasy of course.

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  30. lastmanstanding (1,241 comments) says:

    Radical Muzzies like Leftwingers dont have a sense of humour. Both are anal retentives take themselves far too seriuosly and need to lighten up/.

    Wind them up and they go pop.

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  31. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    I am with you Swiftman..also want to say that I find it offensive that NZ muslims are raving on about Williamson’s joke. Some of us have lived thru a hellish nightmare in recent days.

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  32. toad (3,673 comments) says:

    Out Pastor Terry Jones as a pedophile?

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  33. Fot (252 comments) says:

    Toad

    Good spotting, I take it you are just as keen to attack the Wikileaks rapist guy as well?

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  34. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Out Pastor Terry Jones as a pedophile?”

    How typical of the left- false cowardly smears. All they ever have and a firm reminder readers of what kind of people they are.

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  35. Simon (717 comments) says:

    Moslems routinely burn up Korans (along with other Moslems at the same time.)

    Left wing response to Koran burning so far has been to blame Bush, the American empire and peak oil.

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  36. toad (3,673 comments) says:

    @ Fot 6:03 pm

    Toad Good spotting, I take it you are just as keen to attack the Wikileaks rapist guy as well?

    Fot, you presumably didn’t notice the question mark at the end of my comment. At this stage there is no more evidence that Jones is a pedophile than there is Assange is a rapist. Both of these look to me like setups.

    But you, Fot, got sucked in to responding as if my comment had been seriously accusing Jones of pedophilia. Dickhead!

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  37. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria 3:19 pm,

    Now because of the media attention, we can look forward to various Christians being killed in Islamic countries in retaliation.

    I think you’ll find that Islamists don’t need any excuse to murder Christians, Jews, or anyone else for that matter.
    And those that scaremonger by saying there will be a Muslim backlash are in fact facilitating and excusing Islamic terrorism IMHO.

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  38. Raider580 (13 comments) says:

    Pastor Jones sounds like a nut , but I have a feeling that Islamic`s will make his point for him.

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  39. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    jaba 3:26 pm,

    in fact, David, they (muslims) may start burning copies of Kiwiblog comments and issuing a jihad on you if you don’t stop hasselling them

    … as long as they don’t start burning Kiwiblog commenters.
    But it wouldn’t be the first time Christians (and others) have been burnt alive, tortured, and murdered for speaking the truth – often by those who ‘claim’ to be Christians.

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  40. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    At this stage there is no more evidence that Jones is a pedophile than there is Assange is a rapist. Both of these look to me like setups.

    Actually it seems that Assange’s problem is that he slept with the Swedish equivalent of Mia (and her friend!), without a signed, witnessed contract drawn up by experienced lawyers. Apparently the “victim” has a blog that outlines how to use the rape laws to wreck revenge on a bad lay.

    So setup, well it depends on your definition. CIA? No.

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  41. Fot (252 comments) says:

    Toad

    Feeling a bit guilty are you?

    I do like the way you and the rest of your Green party scum like to hide behind semantics, it is clear what you were attempting to do, it is normal behaviour for bottom feeders.

    As for Assange, it does not look like he has been set up at all, it is crystal clear that he is a rapist.
    What it does looks like is the left excusing one of thier own again, as with Polanski you guys will forgive anything as long as they are on your side.

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  42. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Pastor Terry Jones is an idiot. No question.
    As to an appropriate response.. if someone was threatening to burn bibles in my neighbourhood I would:
    1. Send him/her some matches.
    2. Promise to distribute an equal number of bibles in their neighbourhood.
    3. Pray a blessing on them.

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  43. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    A recent headline on Winds of Jihad…”Moderate Muslim” Abdul Rauf= If I don’t get my mosque on ground zero , 1.5 gazillion muslims will declare jihad on America…ROP…Yeah Right.

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  44. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    If the God you look up to cannot defend your religion from public besmirching, then either your God does not regard the “action” as offensive (and hence neither should anyone else), or your God is not capable of responding (in which case you’re wasting your time adhering to that religion).

    So “do nothing” is the right response.

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  45. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Kris
    http://www.gfa.org
    http://www.persecution.com
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_of_the_Martyrs
    http://www.persecution.net/

    for starters on torture and persecution of Christians

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  46. Rex Widerstrom (5,330 comments) says:

    Fot:

    Toad

    Good spotting, I take it you are just as keen to attack the Wikileaks rapist guy as well?

    Warning: Threadjack ahead… but the use of false sex charges to discredit someone whose opinions you don’t like is (for obvious reasons) close to my heart.

    I must admit I cringed when I read Toad’s suggestion, whether or not it was suffixed with a question mark. Asking “Is X a pedophile?” isn’t all that different to stating “X is a pedophile”, given the witch hunt mentality such issues arouse.

    But in Toad’s defence that’s the first time I’ve ever seen him come close to discrediting a person that way. Fot, on the other hand, consistently accuses Assange of committing a crime which has yet to be tried or proven and for which there is no evidence, to date, beyond the accusation of two women.

    There’s a reasonably balanced timeline of the whole Assange affair here.

    A friend of Assange’s has suggested that the problem is “ill feelings that erupted when the two women discovered they had been competing for his attentions” which sounds plausible, particularly when one of the women is a radical feminist and unlikely to take kindly to being two-timed.

    Before joining Fot in condemning Assange it’s worth noting:

    - The initial arrest warrant was issued on the basis of evidence given over the phone by police to the on-call prosecutor, on the grounds that Assange was a foreign national and about to leave the country. In fact, Assange has applied for residency in Sweden.

    - When accusations come in, prosecutors don’t even check facts before they take coercive measures, which is in fact contrary to Swedish laws. In this case, the prosecutor only listened to one individual’s story but didn’t bother checking the other side before accusing Assange of a serious crime. A Swedish civil liberties group is taking action against her on this point.

    - There was an almost instantaneous leak of the charges and the announcement of Assange’s identity by the authorities, also in violation of Swedish law. Swedish authorities admit this, but say it’s something they can’t investigate.

    - The Swedish system isn’t like ours, and the latest re-laying of charges says more about prosecutors fighting amongst themselves over seniority than it does over guilt (or innocence for that matter).

    - The decision to reopen the rape case followed an appeal by Claes Borgström, the lawyer for the two women. Borgström is a prominent attorney and Social Democratic politician, was Equal Opportunities Ombudsman from 2000-2007 and operates a law firm in partnership with Social Democratic politician and former Minister for Justice Thomas Bodström. Bodström is the son of former Foreign Affairs Minister Lennart Bodström, also a Social Democrat.

    In short there’s an agenda at play here. Whether it involves the Pentagon or some such may never be known but it certainly does include an unholy alliance of feminists, hand-wringers and left wingers… and NZers better than anyone ought to know where that can lead…

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  47. transmogrifier (522 comments) says:

    It’s a bloody book. Paper and ink. Burn as many as you like, burn as many bibles as you want. If others value them, they have every right not to burn their own copy; but to expect others to hold sacred things that those others legally possess and own – whatever. I’m all for religion being observed by the religious – to each their own – but there is no moral, philosophical or ethical reason for you to punish or complain about anyone who chooses not to practice your faith.

    Simple as that.

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  48. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    # Turning the media stunt of a dozen demented nutters into the biggest global news story on the planet
    # Blaming the US Government
    # Idiot news presenters asking whether the Government will stop the event

    You’re asking for far too much from today’s journalists.

    In fact, any deaths that stem from an obscure 50-member church’s foolish actions due to the media’s overwhelming desire to place the narrative of the destruction of the Democrats in November as a temper tantrum by evil nasty bigots can be directly precisely and justifiably on them. Bastards to a man.

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  49. toad (3,673 comments) says:

    @Fot 7:06 pm

    What it does looks like is the left excusing one of thier own again, as with Polanski you guys will forgive anything as long as they are on your side.

    Not me, Fot. I actually think Polanski should have rotted in jail for 5-10 years for what he did.

    @Rex Widerstrom 7:54 pm

    What I was trying to highlight was people making things up, posting them on a website somewhere, and then other people linking to them as “evidence” is becoming all too common.

    Sorry if some misinterpreted my comment. Jones is obviously an Islamophobic bigot extraordinaire, and should rightly be condemned for that. But there is no evidence he is a pedophile.

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  50. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    On a similar note, Angela Merkel has gifted the Danish Mohammed cartoonist with a freedom of the press award and Germany’s moderate Islamic leadership have decided to honour the occasion by reitirating their commitment to freedom of speech.

    Aiman Mazyek of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany said in a statement: “Merkel is honoring the cartoonist who in our view trampled on our Prophet and trampled on all Muslims.”

    Oh wait, hang on.

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  51. Rex Widerstrom (5,330 comments) says:

    No problem, Toad. I can see what you were saying now you’ve explained it, but it wasn’t immediately clear from your post (I too am guilty of assuming “tone” can be conveyed through words and having to go back and explain in ways I wouldn’t have to have done had people heard me say things aloud).

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  52. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    Terry Jones sounds as though he is more of a cult leader than a pastor. His hate-filled preaching is the antithesis of what Jesus taught.

    Well yes, but then you’re being highly selective. The Bible is packed with all manner of intolerance, racism and violence. It truly is a disgusting and obscene book.

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  53. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    David – I think youll find that there have been many bibles burnt in the last few decades. Nothing new in that, except we dont hear much about it.
    Only last year_
    http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/05/19/us-army-burns-bibles-in-afghanistan/
    and-
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6346662/North-Carolina-church-plans-Halloween-Bible-burning.html

    And I recall a group in Germany around the 1930′s got warm by incinerating a few bibles.
    There was even a bible burning episode in Fiji early last century.

    Nothing happening here – just move along………..

    Nothing new about burning bibles

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  54. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    Toad,

    Since the Green Party silently suppresses critical posts on its blog and voted to criminalise free speech, I’m not sure you have anything to contribute to a debate about freedom of expression.

    If we ever need lessons on statist suppression of dissent we’ll know where to come. Until then, you should probably scurry back to where you can control the discourse.

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  55. jakejakejake (145 comments) says:

    Had to laugh when they showed an interview with the pastor on the news the other night and he had a pistol on his desk.

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  56. Banana Llama (1,105 comments) says:

    What to do if someone burns 200 Korans?

    /clap

    /cheer

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  57. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    One attention seeking crank has initiated a world wide media frenzy that is cranking up all sorts of cranky reactions feeding thousands of other cranks with attention seeking ideas.

    The crank butterfly snowball effect?

    The pastor only dug a small hole in the dike, so it’s not his fault of course.

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  58. GNZ (228 comments) says:

    I think 1 is an ok idea there should be an organization that just automatically does that every time.

    3 is a silly idea
    and 4 is silly unless it is done like – “oh yeah that book burning” yeah they are wasting a lot of good paper there….

    The worst thing is when an idiot news presenter claims that it is going to cause US troups to get killed – in the stupid news story that is the only reason why the crazies know to kill US troups over the issue.

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  59. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    I can’t help feeling a sense of deja vu here.

    I seem to remember the danish cartoons about Muhammad being used to initiate and drive a religious orgy of violence by Muslims all over the globe, whilst they publish the same and worse against the Jews and Christians every week both before and after the danish cartoons. ( http://www.memri.org )

    That the pastor is being rude about a book and the adherents to it, who routinely stone women to death and murder people who decide they want nothing more to do with the same book or the religion that comes from it, is clear.
    But let’s remember, said book and it’s supporting documents keeping millions of people in various states of discrimination and human rights violation and it’s system of law breaks every human rights declaration you care to name.
    Except their own as it must adhere to their wicked Sharia law.

    Like the communist manifesto it probably deserves to be burnt.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/09/the_question_is_whose_books_ar.html

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  60. Bob R (1,357 comments) says:

    “This is just wild and crazy performance art! I wonder what all the people who are viscerally drawing back in hatred from this rube and his crazy Koran burning (in their estimation) would say about Karen Finley covering her naked body with chocolate sauce at taxpayer expense? Or about Piss Christ? Or about elephant dung spread over a representation of the Virgin Mary? Ad infinitum.

    Nope, then it’s freedom of speech all the way.”

    http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/017272.html

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  61. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Yeah like the 911 Mosque is just a building.

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  62. grumpyoldhori (2,416 comments) says:

    MikeNZ So no matter what the cost to coalition troops in Afghanistan from all those extra pissed off volunteers planting IEDs you want that that wanker Jones to go ahead ?
    Fuck,people are right when they state there is no difference between any of you religious fundy types, you are all nuts.

    Of course that nutter Jones has not worked out yet(small town working class white ) that his chances of stopping a 308 slug will be bloody good if any US troops are killed because of his actions.

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  63. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    The Saudis burn bibles every day. No reaction from Christians. yet the Christian haters on here constantly push the theme that those religions have equal value systems.

    Then we have frauds like GOH, who postures on here as a soldier but turns to water at the threat of Muslim violence. No wonder the west is under seige. We need warriors to protect our civilisation, not gutless whiners who get down and kiss Muslim arse at the first sign a bullet might be coming their way.

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  64. Nefarious (533 comments) says:

    I was going to suggest toasting marshmallows but it appears some people take a good bonfire more seriously than others.

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  65. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    So GOH’s response to the possibility that an act of freedom of speech by a religious fanatic in the US might get coalition troops in Afghanistan killed by fanatics of another religion – is to call for the freedom of speech to be shut down and for the rest of us to make our fanatics shut-up, by any means necessary.

    A pitch-perfect left-wing approach. Ignore the real problem – over-the-top reactions by Islamist fanatics to a legal and otherwise harmless piece of media-attention appeal – to focus on the real problem of Christians in our own societies.

    I’d like to think that GOH already knows this after the whole Muhammed cartoon and Koran-flushing affairs – that Islamists need no excuse of our actions to kill us – and is simply using the possibility of coalition troops dying to make yet another cynical, ideological attack on what the left sees as the problems with our society.

    But I have the awful feeling that this is simply GOH’s knee-jerk response.

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  66. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Grumpy
    What did I actually say?

    I said like the communist manifesto it probably needs to be burnt.

    I did post a link yesterday which has mysteriously disappeared.
    http://barnabasfund.org/NZ/News/Articles-research/Quran-burning-an-unnecessary-offensive-and-dangerous-gesture.html
    I support that statement as I do the ministry and have for over a decade.

    Unlike you I have not chosen to be a Dhimmi.
    If Muslims continue to stone and flog people, treat women as 2nd class citizens and non-Muslims as worse and murder those who don’t want to follow this religion anymore, then maybe their Koran does need burning.

    My 8.44am post stands and it is a mark of your character that you do not agree with it’s content.

    I leave you with this to read and think from now on I’m going to reinstate the RIP for you as you are a coward and I want no discourse with you as you are happy to give up free speech to terrorists.

    http://www.politicalislam.com/

    Most people think that the Koran is a religious text. Instead, 64% of the text (by word count) is about non-Muslims, who are called Kafirs. The Koran is fixated on Kafirs and makes many demands on them. Not the least is that Kafirs submit to the rule of Islamic Sharia law. Ultimately Sharia law is the pure expression of Islamic politics and it completely contradicts our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Under Sharia there is no freedom of speech, wives may be beaten and apostates murdered

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  67. Brian Smaller (4,028 comments) says:

    The Koran burning is an interesting lesson in Islamic concepts of tolerance. They have none. One fringe person making a statement causes world wide threats of jihad which gets most of the world wetting themselves. The best thing about the Koran is the pages make good toilet paper.

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  68. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/bulletin-of-the-oppression-of-women-july-7-august-9-2010/

    If I were a Muslim my 14 yr old son has more rights in a Sharia court than his mother!

    Maybe we need to burn all their legal texts too.

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  69. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    yet the Christian haters on here constantly push the theme that those religions have equal value systems.

    A vague blanket assertion without anything to support it.

    Mike, burn burn, burn, that is not going to solve anything.

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  70. eszett (2,374 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (11,304) Says:
    September 10th, 2010 at 10:09 am
    The Saudis burn bibles every day. No reaction from Christians. yet the Christian haters on here constantly push the theme that those religions have equal value systems.

    Every day? Just where do you get that from, Red?
    Well, the pastor surely had the same idea when he decided to burn the Koran.

    It’s absurd that so many get their knickers in a twist about burning some bad fiction, be it the Koran, Bible or Hubbard.

    BTW, have you decided whether you think it’s a good idea to burn the Koran? Oops another question I asked, sorry, I forgot how offended you get when some asks you a question.

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  71. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    I really do think the US needs to clean out some of the religious nutters they have and their calls to violence – and in the teachers unions no less:

    “Dear lord,’ this year you have taken away my favorite actor, Patrick Swayze, my favorite actress, Farrah Fawcett, my favorite singer, Michael Jackson, and my favorite salesman, Billy Mays. I just wanted to let you know that Chris Christie is my favorite governor.”

    But hey – it was just a joke! No need to over-react!

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  72. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    The farce continues:

    Mr. Jones claimed that Mr. Rauf “has agreed to move the location.” He added:

    “That cannot of course happen overnight, but he has agreed to do it…. The imam has agreed to move the mosque and we have agreed to cancel our event on Saturday. And on Saturday I will be flying up there to meet with him”.

    In his remarks, Mr. Jones said:

    “Our thought was the American people do not as a whole want the mosque at the ground zero location — that if they were willing to either cancel the mosque at the ground zero location, or if they were willing to move it away form that location, we should consider that a sign from God.”

    While Mr. Jones spoke as if a deal had already been reached to move the planned center from its Lower Manhattan location, two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center, Mr. Musri told reporters that no deal had been reached to change the location of the center in New York.

    Mr. Jones said that Mr. Musri had been in contact with Mr. Rauf (whom he referred to as the “iman”) and that the three men would meet in New York on Saturday.

    CNN reported, however, that Mr. Rauf said in a statement that he had not spoken to Mr. Jones or Mr. Musri. “I am glad that Pastor Jones has decided not to burn any Korans,” Mr. Rauf said. “However, I have not spoken to Pastor Jones or Imam Musri. I am surprised by their announcement. We are not going to toy with our religion or any other, nor are we going to barter. We are here to extend our hands and build peace and harmony.”

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  73. Brian Smaller (4,028 comments) says:

    eszett – I have a friend who had his bible confiscated at customs in Saudi when he was working there as a Computer Operator. It was binned. Still, probably better for him to have been a Christian than an atheist like me. They kill people who think like me there. I think it is pretty accurate to say that Islamic countries don’t show any tolerance towards the Christian holy book and that because Christians don’t explode with love for their god all over restaurants, trains and bars, no-one gives a shit.

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  74. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Eszett – It is absurd but that is what happens when people put value in something.
    This whole issue can either detract from the discussion that needs to be had about viciousness of the Koran and the doctrine and ideology thinking behind it or it can highlight the issue.

    Sadly, it is detracting from it.

    http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/civilizational-war/

    Islam is a monoculture.

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  75. eszett (2,374 comments) says:

    Brian, is Saudia the new benchmark on how we are supposed to behave? I always find it ludicrous to justify some silly behavior because there is even worse behavior in Saudi.

    I have been in Saudi myself, it’s an appalling and hypocritical. I don’t know what’s worse, the way Saudis treat other religions or the way the Saudis treat other Muslims. And atheists do not come even into the picture.

    However the tolerance we have in our countries is certainly not born out of religion. Values like freedom of speech or freedom of religion are not religious values, but deeply humanistic values.

    Or do you really think some of the religious nutbars on this post would not happily outlaw burning the Bible if they could?

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  76. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    As Brian so aptly said.
    I think it is pretty accurate to say that Islamic countries don’t show any tolerance towards the Christian holy book and that because Christians don’t explode with love for their god all over restaurants, trains and bars, no-one gives a shit.

    Eszett – I certainly think the religious nutbars on this post would fight to the death for your right to hold your views and not be treated as a Dhimmi by Islamists.

    The real question is would you for us?
    Reading you and your ilks deflections on this post and others, I’m not so sure.

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  77. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    http://captainranty.blogspot.com/2010/09/book-burning-go-ahead.html

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  78. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    Brian, is Saudia the new benchmark on how we are supposed to behave?

    Eszett. In discussions on these topics you and your left-wing ilk just cannot seem to get away from returning to the same irrelevant points and strawmen: Let’s Talk About Christian Nutters Here, The Need For Us To Be Tolerant And Understanding, Why Play The Childish Game Of They-Do-It-Too, Western Actions Have Led To This, Poverty Is The Key, etc, etc, etc.

    You really do seem stuck in a programming loop and I can’t decide if it’s because you can’t think outside of it or you don’t want to.

    The point that Brian is making is not that Saudi Arabia sets some benchmark of behaviour that is being used to justify something similar here. His point is that here in the West we should take no notice of members of a religion jumping up and down demanding a degree of tolerance and understanding of their beliefs, and a degree of “sensitivity” that they do not appear to exhibit when they control a society.

    ….Or do you really think some of the religious nutbars on this post would not happily outlaw burning the Bible if they could?

    See what I mean? Always the return to focus on our “nutbars” – as if any of them here (even Kris K) have actually argued for such a thing. I don’t think you can say that they are holding back on their beliefs as they seem very upfront about pushing their notions of morality, so if this was something that offended them deeply they would probably speak up in this forum. I’ve not seen any sign that they do, let alone that they have demanded the practice be banned.

    I’ll return to the point that I feel has to be made relentlessly. As an agnostic I’m not in the least concerned about Christians pushing their beliefs in our society or in the West in general. The reason I’m not concerned is that I see no evidence that they are willing to ignore democracy and the decisions of what must seem to them to be secular civil institutions. As far as I can see they will protest, voice their feelings and argue – but that’s all. They have accepted the separation of church and state and they will abide by decisions our society has reached with which they do not agree.

    This key difference has been highlighted so many times by many people over the last few years – and still you obtusely refuse to get it: when a crucifix is dunked in urine and exhibited as “art” left-wingers like you chuckled at the reaction of Christians and identified those as dark forebodings of what Christians would do if they could. But when a book was published analysing the Muhammed cartoon controversy while refusing to print on its pages the actual cartoons because of a fear of a violent Muslim reaction – one could have heard a pin drop in all the fashionable quarters of the Western left. And that was just one of many such events of recent years.

    There was nothing straw-like or reductio ad absurdum or hypothetical about that last event. It was real. It happened. Here in the West, and in terms of raw cultural and political power it vastly exceeded anything that Christians have been able to pull off in similar circumstances.

    I’m sorry to bring this down to one simple, factual point but it really does boil down to this: Christians are not flying planes into skyscrapers. The day they do is the day I’ll join you in at least some of your arguments. In the meantime I admit that I’ve given up thinking that Left-wing agnostics and atheists like you are going to speak out on this issue as loudly and often as they do on other topics.

    It may be that you loathe the right and Christians too much to ever take such a stand and risk being called an Islamophobe by your friends? Or it may be that, even after Salman Rushdie, 9/11, the Muhammed Cartoons, South Park censorship, and many other events you still don’t get it? Or perhaps it’s both?

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  79. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    barry 9:57 pm,

    David – I think youll find that there have been many bibles burnt in the last few decades. Nothing new in that, except we dont hear much about it.
    Only last year [...]
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6346662/North-Carolina-church-plans-Halloween-Bible-burning.html

    Although to be fair, Barry, the article in the link above was talking about NON KJV bibles, and other ‘Christian’ literature, which were considered to present a perverted view of Christianity:

    North Carolina church plans Halloween Bible burning
    Marc Grizzard, the pastor of Amazing Grace Baptist Church in Canton, North Carolina, says that he and his congregation plan to burn Bibles on Halloween.

    Marc Grizzard, of Amazing Grace Baptist Church in Canton, North Carolina, says that the first King James translation of the Bible is the only true declaration of God’s word, and that all others are “satanic”.

    Pastor Grizzard and 14 other members of the church plan to burn copies of the other “perversions” of Scripture on Halloween, 31 October.

    The New Revised Version Bible, the American Standard Version Bible, and even the New King James Version are all pronounced to be works of the Devil by Pastor Grizzard and his followers.

    Pastor Grizzard said: “I believe the King James version is God’s preserved, inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God… for English-speaking people.”

    “We are burning books that we believe to be Satanic.”

    As well as inappropriate translations from the original Hebrew and Aramaic, the pastor and his associates will be burning books by various Christian authors, as well as music of every genre.

    “[We will be burning] books by a lot of different authors who we consider heretics, such as Billy Graham, Rick Warren… the list goes on and on,” Pastor Grizzard told reporters.

    Mother Teresa is also on the list of Satanic authors. The full list is available at the Amazing Grace Baptist Church’s website. [...]

    The man makes a valid point …

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  80. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Tom
    You really do seem stuck in a programming loop and I can’t decide if it’s because you can’t think outside of it or you don’t want to.
    I’m going to see what his reply is.

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  81. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    tom hunter 12:28 pm,

    See what I mean? Always the return to focus on our “nutbars” – as if any of them here (even Kris K) have actually argued for such a thing.

    I’m not sure if that’s a compliment, or not? ;)
    But yes, I am a self-confessed ‘nutbar’ of over 30 years – since my mid-teens :)

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  82. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    Kris K

    Much as I disagree with some of your stances I only put “nutbar” in quotes because it’s the word that eszett used.

    I’ve long got past the stage where I regarded religious people as “nutbars”, particularly when what is defined as religion is such a (pardon the pun) broad church. As Mark Steyn noted:

    …a neighbor of mine got married. He’s a biker and a tattooist, and he’s deeply spiritual. So he and his bride were married in the middle of a field in a service filled with imprecations to Odin, Thor, and sundry other Norse gods. The congregation of bikers rolled their eyes – which may or may not be a traditional Norse mark of respect.

    So I’m fairly okay with my Christian neighbours – well except for those guys from the Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation Of 1915 – they’re complete assholes!

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  83. Gosman (336 comments) says:

    What many commentators seem to be missing here is why are key members of the West, (The Pastor was called by the Secretary of Defence for goodness sake!), bending over backwards to try and supplicate Muslim sensibilities on this issue when it is just some hick Pastor in charge of a tiny congregation.

    When Muslim’s impose their perverted form of justice on others for doing what would be regarded as an abomination in any civilised nation, (e.g. sentencing a convert from Islam to death as in the case of Abdul Rahman see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert) .) you don’t see many Muslim leaders campaigning to stop this sort of behaviour.

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  84. KevinH (1,158 comments) says:

    The guy is a nutcase so you treat him like one because strangely he would understand.So you look at what he wants to burn, which is a double horse float full of Korans, and it kind of looks a bit dangerous and would have to be a controlled burn with fire rescue in reserve.This is of course expensive and presents a risk to the city, therefore a fire permit would be required.The Pastor won’t be able to comply with the permits restrictions because a horsefloat is not a fireplace, furnace or bbq.Therefore his permit is revoked.No Fire.

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  85. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    tom hunter 2:28 pm,

    Much as I disagree with some of your stances I only put “nutbar” in quotes because it’s the word that eszett used.

    Yeah, I know – I was just pulling your tit.
    And I think we agree on much more than we disagree on (the ‘God stuff’ falling into the latter).
    One certainly doesn’t have to be a Christian to see the threat Islam represents to free societies everywhere.

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  86. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    As Gosman says “you don’t see many Muslim leaders campaigning to stop this sort of behaviour”

    I think they’re all too scared of the likely recriminations if they speak up. The religion of terror is very effective at silencing dissent.

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  87. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    The reality of Islamophobia in America

    Expressing one’s opinion is, of course, a right; nobody would say otherwise. However, in places like California, Kentucky, Texas, Florida, New York, Wisconsin and elsewhere, disturbing incidents have either taken place or are being planned. These actions undermine years of interfaith efforts and belie our ideals of tolerance, pluralism and multiculturalism.

    Statistics corroborate the belief that Islamophobia is on the rise in America, and that the temptation to view Islam and Muslims through the prism of extremism remains ever-present. A study from the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that the public’s view of Islam has worsened. According to the study, 30% say they have a favorable opinion of Islam, while 38% have an unfavorable view. These figures mark a change from 2005, when slightly more expressed a favorable opinion of Islam. The study found that those who are younger than 50 have more mixed views of Islam than older Americans, who harbor more uniformly negative opinions.

    These perceptions are undoubtedly linked to the debates in New York, but Christian pastors and elected leaders whose irresponsible rhetoric has undone years of interfaith work on part of Muslims and non-Muslims also deserve blame. Last month, Newt Gingrich compared Muslim Americans who want to build the Islamic center in New York to Nazis who would erect a sign next to Washington’s Holocaust museum. Terry Jones, the pastor of the Dove World Outreach Center in Florida, posted a video that outlines his desire to “expose Islam;” he uses fear and paranoia to encourage more people to burn the Koran. He warns that Europe has been lost to Muslims and that America might be next.

    John L. Esposito, the author of “The Future of Islam,” is University Professor of Religion and International Affairs at Georgetown University and founding director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. Sheila B. Lalwani is a research fellow at the center.

    BTW, it is quite easy to question Islamophobia (which seems prevalent on this blog) and at the same time disagree with Islam as much as with Christianity, and abhor a lot of things done by Muslims, which are significantly more widespread and generally worse than remnant Christian crap but not prevalent on this blog.

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  88. Repton (769 comments) says:

    Islam is a monoculture.

    Yeah! …wait, what?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8465235.stm

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  89. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    It’s not cancelled, just ‘suspended’:
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-na-koran-burning-20100910,0,7402202.story

    Stand up and say “We do not negotiate with terrorists”
    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/08/imam.lkl/index.html?hpt=T1#fbid=tUdq3IMSb99&wom=false

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  90. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pete G[e]orge 4:12 pm,

    More left-wing one-eyed crap by the man who ‘claims’ to bring balance to the debate.

    When you cite material which uses words/phrases such as “interfaith efforts”, “ideals of tolerance, pluralism and multiculturalism”, and “Islamophobia”, all while talking about Islam, we know you are just as much a hypocrite as those who author such one-eyed crap.

    How one can use words like “tolerance”, “pluralism” and “multiculturalism” in the same sentence as Islam – which is anything but tolerant, pluralistic and multicultural (read that multi-religious) – further reveals the duplicitousness of those on the Left.

    In actual fact, Mr George, you bring very little to the debate (as usual).

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  91. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Repton 5:20 pm,

    Islam is a monoculture.

    Yeah! …wait, what?

    Try replacing “monoculture” with ‘mono-religious’.
    Remember, in Islam there is no difference between culture and religion; there is no separation of church and state – they are one in the same.

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  92. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    toad (2,400) Says:
    September 9th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
    Out Pastor Terry Jones as a pedophile?
    **************

    Just like Mohammed, eh?

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  93. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    In actual fact, Mr George, you bring very little to the debate (as usual).

    And you? No attempt to debate, just to rubbish as “left-wing one-eyed crap” – while making no attempt to justify jumping to that sort of conclusion.

    If I compare his extensive credentials and the fact that he is actively trying to find ways of encouraging co-existence between different religions, with you, some anonymous blogger trying to rubbish most religious followers, I know who I would give greater credence to.

    Your arrogance suggests you have a lot yet to learn about the principals of Christ, you seem to be too obsessed with your own self installed position of importance. You won’t even try and co-exist without looking down your nose on other Christians.

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  94. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    The reality of Islamophobia in America

    Speaking of people trapped in a Möbius loop….

    Since we’re in anecdotal land the following story may be of interest, in which a reporter takes three, teenage foreign exchange students through the Minnesota State Fair (Minnesota being the land of whities). The students were from Kuwaiti, Turkey, and Germany (the girl from Kuwait, Nada, wore a hijab). I especially liked this part:

    Despite the fact that tensions are running high in this political season, they independently confirmed that Minnesota graciousness remains top-notch. At the Crutchee’s food stand, the smiling owner offered all three a free cheese-on-a-stick and lemonade (this before learning that a reporter was present). “I want you to like America,” she said.

    “People here are so nice,” said Nada who, observing Ramadan, waited patiently to eat until sundown. “No one treats me different because I look different,” she said.

    For those casual American-hating bigots (of whom there are bucket loads in NZ) – the sort who regularly look down at their noses at the statistic of Yanks with passports – I thought the following might also be something to think about:

    Max agreed. “I like how the Americans talk to me, very open-minded,” and more than willing to make him really feel at home.

    “I don’t know why,” he said, delighted, “but everyone’s talking to me in German.”

    As far as the Koran burning is concerned I think the following quote sums it up for me:

    The amount of pressure that was brought to bear on Jones and his parishioners (I assume he has some) was remarkable. President Obama made a personal appeal; virtually every political leader in both parties begged Jones not to burn the Korans; religious leaders unanimously denounced Jones’s plan; and he was visited by the FBI. The result, I suppose, is a good one, but it is hard to feel positive about any aspect of this story.

    We now have firmly established the principle that you can kick Bibles and other scriptures around all you want, but no one in the world can act disrespectfully toward a Koran. It is, perhaps, a watershed moment.

    Yeah – that level of across-the-board political and religious pressure really sounds like American Islamaphobia is on the rise.

    It is a watershed moment – not that the Western Left realise it anymore than they did during those earlier incidents I listed.

    Then there are articles like this Time Magazine cover story:

    The truth? In the week that three Presidents, a King and their own Prime Minister gather at the White House to begin a fresh round of talks on peace between Israel and the Palestinians, the truth is, Israelis are no longer preoccupied with the matter. They’re otherwise engaged; they’re making money;

    I cannot remember ever seeing, in a still notable magazine, such a blatant example of traditional Jew-baiting-hatred as this piece. I thought I had lost my capacity to be shocked but here we are in the 1930′s again.

    Yet even as they acknowledge that the hate crimes against Jews are greater in number than those against Muslims, you can bet that neither the stats nor the Time piece will ever result in an article by John L. Esposito and Sheila B. Lalwani titled The reality of Judeophobia in America.

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  95. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    Esposito’s speciality is Islam tom, what is your point? That he should so PC as to include every other religion in everything he writes? It seems like he often references Judaism relative to Christianity and Islam in what he writes anyway. Have you read all his books, or are you just jumping to a conclusion, not being balanced and taking into account comments by every other PhD?

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  96. eszett (2,374 comments) says:

    The reason I’m not concerned is that I see no evidence that they are willing to ignore democracy and the decisions of what must seem to them to be secular civil institutions. As far as I can see they will protest, voice their feelings and argue – but that’s all. They have accepted the separation of church and state and they will abide by decisions our society has reached with which they do not agree.

    Really? Have they? Or are you maybe too blind or too aligned to their views to see it otherwise? Or maybe you should read sm e of their views again.

    And if you read my posts carefully, you will find that I do not yield to any extremists on either side. No religion deserves any special respect or excemption from ridicule. Burn all the Korans and publish all the Mohammed cartoons you want.

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  97. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    Esposito’s speciality is Islam tom, what is your point?

    If you don’t get my point after I have made several comments on it then it would seem a waste of my time trying to explain it to you further.

    Tell you what. As an exercise, why don’t you re-read what I wrote earlier, have a think about it, and then tell me what you think my point was. We might make more progress that way, but I doubt you are more than “mildly interested”.

    In the meantime let’s contrast some anecdotal stories:

    Law enforcement authorities in California classified the vandalism at the Madera Islamic Center in the Central Valley that nearly smashed a window as a hate crime when they discovered signs that read “Wake up America the enemy is here” and “No temple for the god of terrorism.” In New York, an intoxicated man forced his way into a mosque in Queens and urinated on several prayer rugs. Michael Enright, a 21-year-old New York film student, is being charged with attempted murder in connection with the stabbing of a Muslim cab driver. The act has been classified as a hate crime.

    There have been many other incidents, such as a reported pipe-bomb incident at a mosque in Florida and the vandalism and arson that took place in Texas in July.

    ….and “stats” from a Pew survey (really. That’s it? That’s the evidence for American Islamophobia?)

    …versus the Detroit Christmas plane bombing attempt, the Times Square bombing attempt, the Fort Hood massacre (13 people). And that’s not even mentioning 9/11, London or Madrid. Perhaps they’re a reaction to “Islamophobia”. Perhaps we can call them “Westernerphobia”

    By the way (and not that Esposito bothered mentioning this) – Michael Enright worked for an outfit called Intersections International, a “global initiative dedicated to promoting justice, reconciliation and peace across lines of faith, culture, ideology, race, class, national borders and other boundaries that divide humanity.” – which would lead one to question his sanity.

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  98. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    If you don’t get my point after I have made several comments on it then it would seem a waste of my time trying to explain it to you further.

    The point you seem to keep trying to make is that if someone criticises a group and doesn’t at the same time criticise every other group that could be related then you diss them for being one-sided. Actually, sorry, that’s harshly sweeping, you tend to only claim unbalance if it suits your slant.

    – which would lead one to question his sanity.

    Must be nuts trying to promote justice, reconciliation and peace, eh. Would it suit you better if they promoted your sort of political elitism and division?

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  99. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    Really? Have they? Or are you maybe too blind or too aligned to their views to see it otherwise? Or maybe you should read some of their views again.

    And apparently you have nothing further to argue.

    Aligned to their views? Well I did sacrifice a rack of lamb to the roast the other night but so far the bushes I’ve burnt on my property have not spoken to me.

    As long as adherents of Christianity are not flying planes into buildings, bombing subways and discos, cutting heads off civilians, beating up gays and conducting deliberate massacres in the name of their religion then – yes – I am going to think that (gnashing teeth though they may be) they are actually accepting the decisions of the secular society in which they live.

    I realise that the word can be mightier than the sword but I tend to regard “views” as non-corporeal things, as opposed to very physical actions. Perhaps you are more a believer in the spirit world than you let on?

    And if you read my posts carefully, you will find that I do not yield to any extremists on either side. No religion deserves any special respect or excemption from ridicule. Burn all the Korans and publish all the Mohammed cartoons you want.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except that – like every other left-winger on this blog – you relentlessly focus on the Christian or right-wing “extremists”, the “Islamophobes” – the ones that aren’t committing those incredible acts of violence in the name of their god. And the next time something like this blows up you’ll be right back here doing it all again. Like I said – a Möbius loop.

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  100. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    you relentlessly focus

    Sort of like you relentlessly focus on trying to show that anyone you deem to be of “the left” has a bias? You don’t seem to pay quite the same level of attention to “the right”, many of whom here are any bit as single-minded as the ones you target. If you want to try and preach about not equally criticising both sides perhaps you could set an example.

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  101. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Freedom is the right to offend, and to do stupid things, provided they harm nobody else.

    That’s right.

    It’s a bloody book. Paper and ink. Burn as many as you like, burn as many bibles as you want. If others value them, they have every right not to burn their own copy; but to expect others to hold sacred things that those others legally possess and own – whatever. I’m all for religion being observed by the religious – to each their own – but there is no moral, philosophical or ethical reason for you to punish or complain about anyone who chooses not to practice your faith.

    Exactly.

    So I take it from the above two comments that both of you would be perfectly content were I to dress up in a white outfit with a hood and burn a cross, provided that the burning didn’t physically harm anyone else. And if anyone got offended then I could successfully argue that “there is no moral, philosophical or ethical reason for [anyone] to punish or complain about [me] who chooses not to practice [my] faith.”

    According to you.

    However, I’ve noticed that such a thing is frowned upon these days and not just in the States. I imagine if I tried that here in Eastbourne there wouldn’t be too many of you conservative blog people coming out and defending my right to do so indeed I imagine it would be quite the opposite.

    So I’m just wondering why it is, that some of you people would [probably?] get all excited about a little thing like a white-robed man with a hood burning a cross, whereas you think it’s just fine and dandy to burn a Holy Book and you can’t seem to understand why anyone at all would be justified in becoming the least bit excited about it.

    I mean, it’s not as if either my act or the act of book burning is symbolic, is it? Why ever would anyone think anything of the sort?

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  102. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    tom hunter 8:49 pm,

    As long as adherents of Christianity are not flying planes into buildings, bombing subways and discos, cutting heads off civilians, beating up gays and conducting deliberate massacres in the name of their religion then – yes – I am going to think that (gnashing teeth though they may be) they are actually accepting the decisions of the secular society in which they live.

    I like the biblical imagery you’ve employed there, Tom – Christians “gnashing teeth” while on earth compared with non-Christians “gnashing teeth” while …

    … like every other left-winger on this blog … Like I said – a Möbius loop.

    Once again, I like the imagery – although in Pete’s case perhaps a Klein bottle is more appropriate ;)

    [PS As a kid I remember a magician at a Christmas party doing a trick with a Mobius loop - not that I knew what it was called back then of course.]

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  103. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    A Möbius loop isn’t such a bad thing Kris, most issues are not black and white, left and right as you and Tom seem to think, the Möbius loop is a good example of complexities of ideas, it often not being clear which side is the right side. It’s a lot more real than your two dimensional world.

    Many things don’t have an extreme, they loop back – geniuses often tip into the insane zone, hard righters slip into the other extremes.

    The earth is round for a reason, it’s not a flat two sided world.

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  104. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Preach preach preach- gawd you really think anyone needs such patronising and infantile commie rubbish?? Give it a break preacher.

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  105. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    RB mumbles to himself. What are you going to preach today RB? About commies, socialists or progressives?

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  106. tom hunter (4,566 comments) says:

    The point you seem to keep trying to make is that if someone criticises a group and doesn’t at the same time criticise every other group that could be related then you diss them for being one-sided.

    If you want to try and preach about not equally criticising both sides perhaps you could set an example.

    First you set up a standard that you imagine I want to meet. Then you pronounce that I have not met it.

    In fact I have no desire for anybody criticising a group to adopt some sort of weak-assed, on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand approach towards all groups as a way of achieving “balance”. I leave that to you to set an example.

    What I do want is for all critics to have an equal (or at least reasonably equal) amount of exposure of their arguments and ideas.

    The point I and others on the right are making is that the groups most deserving of criticism, analysis and skeptism – the Islamists flying planes into buildings, bombing subways and discos, cutting heads off civilians, beating up gays and conducting deliberate massacres in the name of their religion – are the very groups that the Western Left constantly demand we pay less attention to than our own sins, which are also usually held up as the only factors that matter.

    Few on the Left want to talk about the myriad problems and pathologies of Islam but do want to concentrate on all the usual suspects here in the West – of which “Islamophobia” is merely the latest wheeze (it sounds more intelligent than the worn out and inappropriate cry of “raaaaacist”). That’s why I made the joke at the start of the thread about how it would be inappropriate to talk about anything else than the usual bugaboos of the Left – Poverty, Western Colonialism, and Capitalism.

    ….you tend to only claim unbalance if it suits your slant.

    Perhaps you should toddle along to Public Address? They’ll serve you up an intellectually nutritious diet of balanced information I’m sure. You can then rejoice in abusing the irrational Islamophobes on Kiwiblog.

    Better be careful though – you might find yourself swimming in a sea of abusive and snide comments about Christians, together with eszett-like mutterings (Really? Have they?….maybe you should read some of their views again) that could be described as Christianphobic.

    We’ve actually had this conversation about balance before. This is a right-wing blogsite. I am a right-winger. By having these voices in the public sphere “balance” is actually being achieved, but on a wider plane than you are thinking about.

    I think it’s actually very unblanced (possibly mentally unbalanced) to have the themes of the Post-Modern, Post-Colonial Left constantly pushed at us in the MSM. The old idea that all sides could be represented in the traditional media sources was trashed a long time ago as the ranks of journalists filled up with people determined less to report than to influence society – although I’m assuming that you’re not a Far-Lefter, for whom only The Nation and Mother Jones meet the pure standard of the left, and against which the WaPo, NYT and LATimes are right-wing media organs.

    If you’re willing to cast your eyes across the entire media environment you’d see that the MSM is filled with Espositos, Fisks, Dwyers and so forth. It’s hard to find any MSM source – especially in NZ – that puts forward the points of people like Glenn Reynolds, Jonah Goldberg, Ed Morrissey or even George Will. Furthermore, by linking to and quoting from such people, Kiwiblog is actually giving voice to ideas and arguments not usually heard in NZ. That’s balance.

    When the day comes that I see people like that being interviewed on National Radio, TV1, TV3 and in the main newspapers on a regular basis, then I’ll probably focus less on the likes of you, eszett and other left-wingers on this blog. In the meantime, I see no reason or need to drag the likes of Pearlstein, Frank Rich, E.J Dionne or John Campbell into this blog when their views and arguments are so often heard or referred to elsewhere. Esposito claims Islamophobia is on the rise in America? Gee, I never heard that before.

    It’s the counter-arguments that such claims might be bullshit that are given little room outside of forums like this. That’s not balance and your foot-stamping about slant is a clear indication that you’ve been perfectly happy with the traditional situation in which right-wingers like me were told to shut up or shouted down or otherwise ostracised until we’re forced to return to the dress circle of the Progressive theatre.

    Finally, since you are so keen on the Appeal to Authority pitch with large-brained people whose speciality is Islam, I’ve got something for you from The Atlantic. It’s by a guy named Bernard Lewis, who has long been regarded as one of the West’s premier experts on Islam and It was published in 1990 so has the advantage of predating many of the current Western sins that have you so worried. He’s an old-time scholar, so actually has a great deal of respect for Islam while not ignoring its pathologies or the negative aspects of its interaction with the West. In particular he avoids the simple-minded approach of just blaming the West and comdemning its peoples with trite, pop-pyschology terms such as “Islamophobia”. The Roots of Muslim Rage.

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  107. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    This is a right-wing blogsite.

    You have claimed that before. It’s actually a very open blogsite.

    Agreed, a lot of right leaners post here – all the better to poke in a bit of alternative stuff don’t you think? Otherwise it would be a little back patting circle like Crusader Rabbit – if you want a left view exclusion zone you might be happier there.

    Lighten up a bit – there may not be anyone who calls themselves Bluebaiter here, but it doesn’t rule it out.

    BTW, I don’t just “blame the West” and praise Islam, I frequently do the opposite, but you choose to pick the bits that suit your slant.

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  108. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Thank you for that Tom
    Loved the ending of page two.

    A religious freedom is all well and fine to talk about in the abstract, but secularism as it has manifested to become, like Islamism, a monoculture seeking to create an environment whereby the freedom of a Judeo/Christian society that allowed them to flourish,is curtailed, denigrated, alienated and finally subjugated as the society it gave life to is driven into the darkness.

    This hatred for freedom from the Left and the Islamist is not properly recognised in our apathetic, hedonistic society yet and it may not until it is too late.

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