Across the political spectrum
November 7th, 2010 at 2:00 pm by David FarrarWe’ve already identified how two of the leading activists against national standards are aspiring Labour Party candidates.
In this TVNZ item, they interview Island Bay School (my former school incidentally) board chair Jane Forrest saying parents have no confidence in national standards. Tony Ryall suggests the campaign is organised by the unions (which it clearly is – Whale has mounds of documents showing this) and is politically motivated. TVNZ report that the campaigners they spoke to reject those claims and that they come from right across the political spectrum.
Now of course there will be some parents who are anti national standards and vote National. Just as many parents who are for national standards vote Labour. But what is interesting is to look at the ring-leaders who are driving this campaign, such as Ms Forrest.
An Auckland reader has found Jane Forrest (spelt Forest but the video looks like the same person) in hard left anti-reform documentary “Someone Else’s Country“, in 1996. She is on clip 5 at 16:45 railing against user pays, privatisation, bulk funding, and Americanised education. She goes on to call for unions and student associations to work together to battle the then National Government.
So that sounds like across the political spectrum doesn’t it?
I’ve been getting many e-mails from angry parents at schools that have signed up to the union campaign against the Government.
November 7th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Why are these Parents angry?
I am really confused. Please S P E L L this out. What sort of volume of mails?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
the various Unions are having a bad run recently .. good fkg job to
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
These leeches from the left just love getting into these sort of positions in Education.
The worst factor is the gradual removal of Male teachers from School Staffing.
This is in my opinion no pure fluke, and has resulted in huge discipline and culture issues.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
and look who is Labour’s spokesperson for Education
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
DPF, I’ve noticed that your posts on National Standards increasingly fail to address the real issue of whether or not Tolley’s standards are flawed in their implementation, and increasingly amount to ad hominem attacks on those campaigning against National Standards.
I think we can fairly assume from this that Tolley has lost the former argument in the court of public opinion, and that National’s last resort to attempt to save face is to smear the anti-standards campaigners.
[DPF: Exposing the political agenda behind the union's campaign is not smearing anyone. It is exposing the truth which is being hidden.
The union's arguments against the standards are desperate delaying tactics. They would drop their opposition within seconds if league tables were banned. That is what they are scared of.
Incidentally, even if the national standards are flawed, the way to fix them is to vote out the Government. It is not legitimate to refuse to implement them just because you have a personal opinion that they are flawed]
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Unlike the Unions who smear everyone for standing up to them. Even job bringers on a mass scale like Peter Jackson.
Toad, your comments are puerile.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Au contrare toad the fact Tolley requires nothing more than placing a small addition on top of the existing standard and publishing league tables is fine, with absolutely every parent I know.
Tolley has failed to communicate how truly trivial the change is and she’s an idiot for that, but she will, eventually, I hope and when everyone knows that the only people on your side will be you hard core lefties holding yourselves while everyone else in the country is looking at you wondering what all the fuss was.
I’m quite looking forward to seeing that.
And BTW, trust good old TVNZ to obfuscate, again.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
toad – I think many of the people here agree that whether or not the standards are flawed, people want to be able to see how their kids are going at school and whether their kids’ teachers are doing a good job. They also see that the standards are a good start in addressing these concerns.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
National Standards are simply a tool to identify whether children are learning as well they could/should be.
The real challenge is to help those who aren’t.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
toad why is it that lefties try to do this, all the time? Pretend to be neutral when they’re really screaming lefties. Only your side does it, it’s like you don’t see the sleaze of it. It’s downright slimy.
When Muldoon was defeated a guy called Simon Walker who was heavily involved with Liarbore had a Sunday evening session on Pacific talk back. He claimed to be from the Nats and then proceeded wanted to talk about how much the party had been decimated and just exactly what went wrong.
It went on and on and on and every single caller was taken in till Barry Gustafson called in and put the real truth on it.
That was back in 1982 I think so you do it all the time, don’t you.
What? Do you think people won’t notice? Do you think your propaganda isn’t noticed as the trash it truly is?
How fucking arrogant you guys are, you’re all fucking arseholes.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
I’m sure there are flaws Toad. There are flaws all over the place. The thing is, policies like the National Standards are a work in progress with the aim for continuous improvement. I believe the introduction of NZCA was very contentious but has settled after time.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
[reid 3:20 pm] Once they get to a certain level, that’s precisely how they behave. MPs, ‘academics’, ‘journalists’, ‘civil servants’, etc. They’re all socialists first. The end justifies the means. They’re pondscum.
cheers
David Prosser
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Tony Ryall suggests the campaign is organised by the unions…
Uh, duh-uh… agitation on an issue affecting teachers and principals is being organised by the people specifically tasked with agitating on issues affecting teachers and principals? No shit, Tony – did your brain hurt a lot while you were figuring that out?
Incidentally, even if the national standards are flawed, the way to fix them is to vote out the Government.
Really? Because the whole question of who to vote for in the next election comes down to this one issue, perhaps? Or is it just that a National govt must not be subject to protest action, because… it makes the angels cry or something?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
It went on and on and on and every single caller was taken in till…
See, right-wingers would never phone in calling themselves Hone or shit like that…
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
“Incidentally, even if the national standards are flawed, the way to fix them is to vote out the Government. It is not legitimate to refuse to implement them just because you have a personal opinion that they are flawed]”
DPF, I don’t agree. Why do we treat teachers as different from any other professional group- if doctors, nurses, pilots etc. warned that a system was flawed, we would listen them wouldn’t we- even for industrial reasons? Most professional ethics codes demand activism
toward the ‘system’, and all too few people fulfill this role.
[DPF: So by your logic we should boycott paying taxes because the last Government did not listen to the tax professionals on the most efficient tax system?]
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
We’ve already identified how two of the leading activists against national standards are aspiring Labour Party candidates.
I thought it was just the one – who is the other one?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Toad, you really are a dick A devious mendacious dick, to boot.
David’s post is not about National standards, per se. It’s about the despicable campaign mounted by you and you scabby mates.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
“See, right-wingers would never phone in calling themselves Hone or shit like that…”
Uh, duh-uh, Milt.
We don’t have compliant media lap dogs like you have who give you a platform from which to spew forth your lies, knowing all along, they are lies. And these people call themselves journalists.
If a conservative does something like that it’s not normally one with official political connections it’s done as a member of the public off their own bat. We don’t lie systematically and professionally like you guys do.
I know DJP – it’s the cause. It makes these execrable people believe that anything is OK, cause it’s for the cause.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
AF, I think in the context you are referring to that Toad is the opposite of a scab- JHC, we really do need these national standards!
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
reid, name calling and obscenities are a poor substitute for intelligent argument.
Of course the teacher unions are involved. They are the mouthpiece for teachers both industrially and professionally. They are only doing their job. What is wrong with that?
So two of them are Labour aspirants. Allan Peachey, now in Parliament for National, was a high school principal. What’s the difference?
And why on earth would parents be e-mailing a National Party blogger?
[DPF: Presumably because they want their stories of how their boards are not consulting parents, made public]
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
“And why on earth would parents be e-mailing a National Party blogger?”
Absolutely, DPF can you elaborate?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
Maggie asks
Might it be because Andrew Little (EPMU general secretary/Labour Party president/Labour candidate) has got the word out to EMPU card-carrying members of the MSM that they have to toe the party line? Blogs are doing a great job running the stories that the MSM won’t touch.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Because the traditional media outlets aren’t listening to them?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
“reid, name calling and obscenities are a poor substitute for intelligent argument.”
So what are your thoughts Maggie on lefties who do what we’re talking about – lie and deceive, deliberately?
Are they OK? Are they even wonderful because they’re fighting the good fight with every weapon at their disposal? Or are they just utter scum?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Can I repeat some earlier details which seem to have escaped one or two of your bloggers.
1. National standards are not national standards: private schools do not have to do them, Te Reo schools do not have to do them. If they are so pivotal to the education of New Zealanders, how come these large groups do not have to do National Standards?
Vote:2. National Standards are not national standards: the tests will vary all over the country. It will require another level of bureaucracy to moderate the tests.
3. Teachers are not against national standards; they would like them trialled first. All schools already have various national standards that identify kids at risk.
4. It is not a Labour Party plot; many of the noisiest schools are in true blue areas. 50% of teacher staff rooms voted National last election. Membership of the Associations is at an all time high (90%??)
5. On being made Minister, Mrs Tolley headed off to soak up all Michelle Rhee could suggest on reforms of education in Washington. Rhee has been thrown out comprehensively in Washington because her reforms were unpopular.
6. Of course the teacher associations are involved! That is what teachers around the country pay them to do. Is this a spot the brain cell competition?
The National Standards nonsense is a beatup designed to discredit the teacher associations. So far the only one discredited is a Minister of the Crown who lies like a flatfish.
November 7th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
@ Reid; prior to the last election Dr Michael Bassett wrote a very interesting piece. He said that Helen Clark et al would do “whatever it takes” to win the election. Could that be the answer you’re looking for (but are unlikely to get) from Maggie?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
If that list of the 225 schools on Darren Rickard’s Blog is accurate, the Principals and Boards of those Inner City Auckland schools are deliberately keeping this action from the parents.
If they genuinely have concerns with the National Standards then fair enough, but they have an obligation to inform the parents of their actions and why they’re taking them.
*Community Involvement* at these schools seems to extend as far as extensive publicity when they want us to put our hands in our pockets for some fundraising event or other but when it comes to decisions regarding the direction of the school we’re are kept at arms length by the Principals and Boards.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Every other profession judge’s those within it. The teachers in this stupid dispute are their own worst enemies, gutless wonders, they do themselves a huge disservice. Being the good little socialists they are, everyone must be equal least one may fail and God forbid one be better then the other. They moan their sorry arse’s off because they can not get a pay rise, perhaps NS will sort the wheat from the chaff and those proving their worth will be rewarded accordingly. Sadly most are Liarbore scum to fucking thick to realise they are simply useful idiots to those who wish to drag this country into the evil clutches of socialism.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Sadly most are Liarbore scum to fucking thick to realise they are simply useful idiots to those who wish to
drag this country intohold this country in the evil clutches of socialism.Otherwise, here here.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
“DPF, I don’t agree. Why do we treat teachers as different from any other professional group- if doctors, nurses, pilots etc. warned that a system was flawed, we would listen them wouldn’t we- even for industrial reasons? Most professional ethics codes demand activism toward the ‘system’, and all too few people fulfill this role.”
Course we would Dandy.
Its just possibly because Doctors, Nurses and Pilots don’t tend to be low-life, screaming socialists of little academic ability like many of the teachers are. (Witness the protest marches if you think I exaggerate).
If you want to be taken seriously you have to start acting like an adult. This is something the teachers haven’t learned.
Perhaps they are absorbing too much retro learning from their time spent with the junior classes.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
“Sadly most are Liarbore scum to fucking thick to realise they are simply useful idiots to those who wish to drag this country into the evil clutches of socialism.”
Come on now SSB. Stop trying to steal Redbaiter’s best lines.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Perhaps the teachers should call an international boycott against national standards.
Vote:They must know some Australians.
November 7th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
I’ve got this one.
“1. If they are so pivotal to the education of New Zealanders, how come these large groups do not have to do National Standards?”
Because it is about finding out which schools need more funding. Public schools get funding. Private schools dont.
“2. It will require another level of bureaucracy to moderate the tests.”
If the end result is better efficiency in education spending, that possible bureaucracy may be self funding.
“3. Teachers are not against national standards; they would like them trialled first.”
Thats the delaying tactic DPF was talking. I dont have any doubt that at the end of any “trial period” the unions will still be against the idea.
“All schools already have various national standards that identify kids at risk.”
Wouldnt it be good to know if those efforts are worthwhile? Unions dont think so.
“4. many of the noisiest schools are in true blue areas.”
So what? Are the people making the noise true blue too? It doesnt look like they are.
“50% of teacher staff rooms voted National last election.”
But are 100%, or even 50%, of teacher staff rooms trying to block the standards?
“5. On being made Minister, Mrs Tolley headed off to soak up all Michelle Rhee could suggest on reforms of education in Washington.”
jeez, xenophobic much?
“Rhee has been thrown out comprehensively in Washington because her reforms were unpopular.”
And the US education system is the best in the world? We all know the teachers unions are bad in the US, like they are here. The fact they didnt like something doesnt mean it is bad for kids education. In fact, many would take it as an indication of the opposite.
“6. Of course the teacher associations are involved! That is what teachers around the country pay them to do.”
Who is arguing the associations shouldnt be involved? The problem is that they are trying to be involved without telling people they are. Why are they doing that?
They are trying to make it look as if there is more support for their ideal than there really is. They are lying to everyone because they know they are in the minority.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
Take a deep breath guys, and stop hyperventilating. Wipe the spittle off your keyboards. I am so sorry you were so badly treated at school those years ago. It must get in your craw completely when the recent reports rate the NZ education system so highly. How about keeping to the issues rather than the ad-hominem arguments!
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
“3. Teachers are not against national standards; they would like them trialled first.”
That is what this is, country-wide.
“But are 100%, or even 50%, of teacher staff rooms trying to block the standards?”
Vote:Not if 250 so-called non-co-operating schools are only one tenth of the total schools.
November 7th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Speak for yourself DMS. Just because you were bummed by your French master does not mean that the rest of us had a bad experience at school.
Why it was the happiest time of my life until I realised it wasn’t normal to think of sheep as rational beings.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
@jaba 3:23 pm
In that case, trial it and get it right before imposing it on all primary and intermediate students who now face the risk of being branded failures because the standards are aspirational standards rather than normative standards based on empirical evidence. Get the bloody evidence first – then put a system in place based on it.
The approach being taken by Tolley, and supported by many here, is purely ideological. That approach failed overseas, and will fail here. And the educational prospects of out kids is in jeopardy if we don’t get it right.
All teachers (and an increasing number of school BoTs) are asking is for the standards to be evidence-based, and to do that, you have to first collect the evidence rather than impose regime from on high with no evidence that it will actually work.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Go Johnboy! And that report was run by some wishy-washy feel-good hug-fest that rated schools on all sorts of ‘soft’ items. Nothing to do with student results or achievements.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
“rate the NZ education system so highly”, who does DMS? . Let me guess the UN?, no, The communist league?, no. What’s the bet it’s some dribbling socialist organisation full of politically correct two bobs. I have children going to a state school, I have one going to a private school, the difference is painfully obvious and I’ll let you guess which school gets the big tick.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
“some wishy-washy feel-good hug-fest ”
That’s exactly what I claimed when the sheep took the stand.
Did me no good at all I might add.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Hell Bob with the sort of money Fonterra’s paying out you should have all the sprogs getting private tuition in Switzerland.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
“who now face the risk of being branded failures because the standards are aspirational standards”
Oh goodness toad what an insurmountable tragedy of biblical proportions.
Anyone who understands human nature could think of various ways round that issue, let alone someone who spends their life in the classroom.
If teachers can’t find a way around that then quite frankly they’re incompetent. Perhaps they just don’t even want to try. Could that be it, toad?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Better a sheep than a dog any day.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Oh, and at my school the French teacher was OK. It was the music teachers you had to watch out for!
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Whats wrong with a dog day afternoon?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF1rtd8_pxA
Ask Sonny and Sal.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
You went to Scots as well?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Il y a une flock chez chaque mouton noir, eh, Johnboy
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
DMS
“Rhee has been thrown out comprehensively in Washington because her reforms were unpopular”
Get your facts straight. Rhee was appointed by DEMOCRAT mayor of Washington DC Adrian Fenty. She attempted to do what no other DC Schools Chancellor tried to do and that was to find a way to properly measure teacher performance and to attempt to reward excellent teaching. Previous performance monitoring tests gave 95% of teachers the same glowing report. Rhee decided to opt for a more rigorous testing method that – shock horror – actually made public who the good and bad teachers were. Now we all know that teachers unions hate the true state of teaching quality to ever be accurately measured or God forbid be published and that excellence be rewarded. Rhee proposed that DC teachers that tested in the upper quartile be paid double their then current salary from $65,000 to around $130,000 in exchange for giving up tenure. How did the teacher unions react to this innovation? Like all good lefty organization – they suppressed debate by refusing to allow the proposal to even come to the vote.
The teachers unions could not tolerate the prospect of any meaningful reform in DC Schools so Rhee had to go. Best way to do it was to defeat the mayor and so the teachers unions poured a cool MILLION dollars into the Democrat primary campaign of Vince Ward (a public opponent of Rhee) against Fenty. There has never been a mayoral primary in a Democrat primary for a city the modest size of Washington DC that has ever seen even remotely close to this amount spent on one candidate so is it any wonder Fenty was defeated. Rhee’s resignation soon after that result was a formality.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
Que diriez-vous de d’une racine ?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Can’t send the kids to Switzerland Johnboy, would have to find some more willing slaves, hard to come by these days.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
After I’ve jacked Yvette up as a sex slave I’ll give you a call Bob.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
“you have to first collect the evidence rather than impose regime from on high with no evidence that it will actually work.”
Like Kyoto, huh?
Waiting until something is proven to work before implementing it only seems to apply to this one case in education. The rule doesnt apply to every other teaching fad that is introduced year after year.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
KIM,
Vote:Rhee was the issue that cost the Mayor. Clearly the campaign touched on the general population. Teachers alone cannot vote a Mayor out.
November 7th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Thanks KIA, I figured it was something like that. Unions have shown many times that they will turn down more money for good performers to avoid having their poor performing members make less money.
The reason is fairly obvious. If someone is a member of a Union, and they start making less money, they will leave the Union. It is very obvious, which is what makes the Unions disingenuous protests that really they just care about the children so sickening.
Sure they MIGHT care about childrens education, but it isnt their main concern. They think they are being really sly about it too. They think we dont notice how the “interests of children” always coincide with the interests of teachers.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
“Clearly the campaign touched on the general population.”
Really, what was the turn out? Political power does not equate with democratic rule. The teacher unions in the US have a massive amount of political power. And that is a sickness that will eventually kill their democracy.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
“3. Teachers are not against national standards; they would like them trialled first.”
I don’t believe that. The union was opposed to bulk funding, which was voluntary. They remained opposed to it and put a lot of “pressure” on schools that chose to participate. If National Standards were voluntary (ie trialled in schools that chose to do it) the union would still be opposed. It is just convenient for them to say “oh no, we’re not against standards, we just want it trialled first”. Complete rubbish.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Very slightly OT
The full page add in today’s SST has changed my view of the PPTA.
I used to think they were just out of touch academics, quaint in a way in that they were stuck in the past demanding what most others know is not possible right now.
But now I see they are lying, deceptive underhanded scum. Fuck’em and the horse that brought them to town.
Those items of govt spending were either unavoidable if we all don’t want economic collapse or in the case of private schools to eliminate the spend would cause a cost with at least a zero added on the end of said total.
Lying arseholes
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
“After I’ve jacked Yvette up as a sex slave I’ll give you a call Bob. : ) ”
It was my birthday one day last week, Johnboy
Vote:I think you would be dismayed as to which one.
Not dismayed at which day, but which year.
November 7th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
PS: Qui s’accouple un mouton sera mangé par les loups
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
Its all pretty simple really. The teachers are opposed to national standards because a National Government has brought them in.
The teachers are ruled by a bunch of commo fucks called the PPTA.
All the union movement from the CTU down hates the fact that a National Government is in power.
All the sadarse socialist fucks (teachers, actors etc). are doing their best to destroy anything that National stands for.
Best thing to do is sack all the sadarse socialist fucks and tell them to see if they can get a teaching job elsewhere like Afghanistan or Iraq or Zimbabwe.
When they all bugger off replace them with real teachers from some of the previously mentioned countries who are really hanging out for a job in a paradise like NZ.
Ronald Reagan did it to the air traffic controllers in the US.
Time we called their bluff and did it here.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:44 pm
Public schools get funding. Private schools dont.
Not sure which country you’re talking about Kimble, but we’re discussing NZ.
If National Standards were voluntary (ie trialled in schools that chose to do it) the union would still be opposed.
In your uninformed opinion. There is of course a simple way of finding out whether that’s true or not – trial the fucking thing.
We don’t have compliant media lap dogs like you have who give you a platform from which to spew forth your lies, knowing all along, they are lies.
My “compliant media lap dog” is called blogspot.com reid, and yes it lets me spew forth whatever I have a mind to. It lets everyone do that, including a wide assortment of the looniest right-wing nutbars you’ve ever come across in your life, so how you can complain you don’t have it is beyond me.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Yvette I loup vous quoi que votre âge.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
“[DPF: So by your logic we should boycott paying taxes because the last Government did not listen to the tax professionals on the most efficient tax system?]”
DPF, by ‘tax professionals’ do you mean IRD, treasury, universities, or ‘private practitioners’? ‘Tax professionals’ are not a cohesive group in a singularly defined vocational scope of practice- like, for example, nurses, barristers and teachers. This lack of cohesion is a major factor for why they weren’t listened to- perhaps you can think of a better example.
“Its just possibly because Doctors, Nurses and Pilots don’t tend to be low-life, screaming socialists of little academic ability like many of the teachers are. (Witness the protest marches if you think I exaggerate).”
What a stupid and hysterical generalisation Johnboy. You achieve nothing by calling them names, just because you disagree with their cause- maybe that’s why we have early childhood educators and teachers in the first-place, to reverse the idiot-behaviours, anger and anxiety that people like you role-model to our children.
“Get the bloody evidence first – then put a system in place based on it.”
Absolutely Toad. Take Pharmac as a model- this country saves 100′s of millions of dollars a year based on an evidence-based approach to drug funding. DPF you’re clearly a proponent of this approach, as evidenced by your support in seeking further evidence for lowering the blood alcohol level- so why the change in mind/approach over this issue?
[DPF: Pharmac work,s well because they are independent. In your model the NZMA would do the job of Pharmac]
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
Time we called their bluff and did it here.
So, once you’ve sacked all the teachers, and our kids need to go to school tomorrow, you’ll be there in a voluntary capacity to bark insane wingnut gibberish at them in lieu of an education until you can bring in some Third Worlders, will you?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
You would be bloody surprised how quickly the solidarity of the PPTA dissolved Psycho when the cold hard reality of not being able to feed the kids and pay the mortgage sunk in.
I suspect that it would take about two weeks and it would all be over.
Of course we would need a National Government with balls for it to happen.
I suspect it won’t on this blokes watch.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
Well said, Dandy.
My main problems with some of the union-bashing comments on this site are their intemperate tone and appalling grammar and punctuation. Some of you should really have listened more closely and tried harder at school.
I have often wondered why there is such a widespread lack of support for teachers in this country.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
“Yvette I ‘wolf’ [ loup : ) ] you no matter what your age”
But you might, Johnboy – for my birthday I found I have cancer
Vote:Un bit d’une déception. mais est assorti à l’âge.
“Un mouton d’ezkabiatsu troublera une flocke entière”
November 7th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
What a wonderful country we live in and what a wonderful government (even if no english speaker can understand our PM)
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
“Not sure which country you’re talking about Kimble, but we’re discussing NZ.”
So you think under-performing private schools will get funding ahead of under-performing public schools? No. They wont. They will be identified and go out of business. LDO
“There is of course a simple way of finding out whether that’s true or not – trial the fucking thing.”
So the reason to have a trial is to find out if the Unions will still oppose something they dont have much of a coherent reason to oppose right now? What a waste of time.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
Inky, What did you not understand about ‘President’ Clinton?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Let’s fire all those commie teachers like they did in a county in Louisiana or somewhere similar. They brought in 500 Phillipino teachers to take their place, locked them into loans for houses, didn’t let them join teacher associations.
Vote:They didn’t know the syllabus, they couldn’t settle in…. it was a disaster.
Could someone tell me what happened next. It won’t be pretty.
November 7th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Psycho
In reality, a lot, not all to be fair, of the teachers classify as not even very adequate baby sitters.
You’d be surprised how many of us would actually prefer to home school.
You not getting the fact that teachers are not that important.
Johnboy is spot on, call the bluff government. Then we would really see how many teachers are totally intune with the union who are driving a anti-National agenda.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Kimble,
In NZ private schools get funded by the government. This government got rid of night classes to increase their funding.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
So the reason to have a trial is to find out if the Unions will still oppose something they dont have much of a coherent reason to oppose right now? What a waste of time.
Er, the reason to have a trial of major changes that will have significant effects on a large sector of society is that to not do it is colossally fucking stupid. If there weren’t unions involved, I expect even the dimmest right-wing bulb would be able to grasp it.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Pauleastbay: I’m certainly willing to credit that your teachers were astonishingly incompetent.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Hey Johnboy, can you do our side of the argument a favour and join Milt?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Je suis sans voix avec peine pour vous Yvette. Mais il ne fait aucune différence à mes sentiments.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
“In reality, a lot, not all to be fair, of the teachers classify as not even very adequate baby sitters.
You’d be surprised how many of us would actually prefer to home school.”
Yeah, and a lot of us would prefer to have only 1 parent working, to own a bach and a home, and still have enough money for a trip to Fiji each year during the school holidays.
They’re ‘not that important’ in this imaginary world where you put your money where your mouth is and step-up to teach your own children.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
“In NZ private schools get funded by the government.”
Like I fucking said. The point of standards is to identify poor performing schools to direct EXTRA resources. Private schools are not in line to get this funding.
If National Standards were to be used to identify and close down bad schools then private schools ought to be included. But they’re not, so they arent.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Shit from the crap you post Kimble I thought you and Milt were on the same side.
Fuck I’m dumb.
Must have been educated in NZ by a seriously committed PPTA member eh!
I will change sides immediately.
Mea culpa.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
What private schools really want all the children that State schools have? Every child, no matter how troublesome?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Is there really so much need to swear when talking about educational standards?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
On ya Milt, a shame you are not quick enough to even raise a smile, if your are going to just resort to giving me shit no worries but if so try and inject some intelligence and humour, which I do appreciate.
What I do know is you have been absolutely smoked here over the last few days on this issue ( reemed out actually), you get points for persistence but thats all.
I was lucky enough to go to a private school in the days where they paid their own way and suffered no governemt interference and the teachers were totally accountable to the parents who paid large , in many cases unaffordable amounts for the time, i.e mid 60′s to mid 70′s.
OK so there was the odd sexual indescretion perhaps but hell we learnt to read and write.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
ITT lefty damage control.
The Gween Party must be terrified their blend of Marxism won’t be in control of the education system for much longer.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Dandy
Its only the teachers who get enough holidays to bugger off to Fiji. What is it, ? 3 months , plenty of time for island hopping
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Pauleastbay, I’m not sure your parents got very good value for the high price of your education. It seems you struggle to write and although you can read, your comprehension skills don’t seem very good.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
“I was lucky enough to go to a private school in the days where they paid their own way and suffered no governemt interference and the teachers were totally accountable to the parents who paid large , in many cases unaffordable amounts for the time, i.e mid 60′s to mid 70′s.”
Darn right Paul. My days were so happy at good old S**** ******* till I found out that the sheep were required to report to the Headmaster on a regular basis.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Kimble – “Like I fucking said. The point of standards is to identify poor performing schools to direct EXTRA resources.”
You may have fucking said this, but it is not what Tolley has said. She claims national standards are to identify individual children at need and help them. She has specifically said she will not have league tables.
Vote:Those will be left to the newspapers and other helpful idiots.
November 7th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Kimble would only have got maximum points in the standard for wanking Yvette.
No wonder He/She is so bitter.
Wanking is due to be incorporated into national standards as soon as the PPTA has totally assessed it.
This is the process we are going through at the moment.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Johnboy, je suis après lui, et Celui aussi bien.
Vote:Mais un jour comme tigre vaut mille comme mouton.
November 7th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Je serai un tigre pour vous Yvette.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Look fact is Tolley has really screwed her message up. It truly does seem that National Standards is very mild stuff and why Tolley can’t re-gain the front foot based on this is anyone’s guess.
Newsflash Tolley: selling the policy is your job, not the unions. The unions were predictable. Where have you been?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Milt
” you’ll be there in a voluntary capacity to bark insane wingnut gibberish at them in lieu of an education ”
Instead of the left wing progressive crap they are force fed now?
When you boil this all down the reason the left (Toad being a classic example) are so against National Standards is because they know that they will lose the ability to brain wash the next generation.
Toad calls for a trial, that is laughable, any trial would have a pre determined outcome, I can see it now…” Teacher’s give thumbs down to National Standards after exhaustive 12 month trial”
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Shit give the bastards a trial bb. Then find them guilty and sack the fucks.
We need shit useless leftie teachers like we need a dose of the bloody crabs.
The useless pricks will soon beg for their jobs back once the bank manager gives them a ring.
If not Afghanistan is crying out for teachers I hear.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
What I do know is you have been absolutely smoked here over the last few days on this issue ( reemed out actually), you get points for persistence but thats all.
Thanks – it’s when right-wingers start telling me how crushingly I’ve been proved wrong that I know you don’t actually have a case.
I was lucky enough to go to a private school…
In other words, your knowledge of the public education system is even lower than most of the other teacher-haters commenting here.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
Please Psycho, you really think trialing the standards is really going to change the unions record?
Its quite clear the unions are being unhelpful because this is a National government policy.
If an employer wants to change a process then surely that is a right.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
“Teacher-haters” !!!
You really have plumbed the depths Psycho. I went to a private school and thought most of the teachers were great.
Still that could have been because they didn’t march down Lambton Quay waving placards and screaming hatred.
Mostly they just got on with the job and educated us.
They are probably all dead now but I can remember them all with affection.
I doubt that the current socialist scum that like to regard themselves as teachers will ever be held in that regard 40 years later.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
Keep going Pycho Milt.
The more intemperate the language and insane the arguments directed at you; the more likely it is that you are the one making the sensible points.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
Presuming is dangerous Milt.
My kids go to a public school and are in the public education system . And I know several current teachers and many who have left the profession, mainly because of the left path that the teachers have taken education.
You are a persistent little devil I’ll give you that and ‘crushingly’ is your word, yep you are right you have been crushed.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
“…teacher-haters…”
All of us love teachers Milt. It’s the lefty bit we deplore and the thing is, it seems so often not always but often to go hand in hand.
Look if the teachers can articulate why they’re against them, fine. But if they can’t, which they haven’t so far, then it’s their job to implement them so do it.
So far AFAIK, they have said:
naming people who don’t win causes trauma – that’s surmountable
league tables name loser schools unfairly as they don’t account for demographics – get over it
What else have they said in their considered reasoning?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
Inky,
“In NZ private schools get funded by the government. This government got rid of night classes to increase their funding.”
The level of funding is around 25% – leaves quite a gap really. Either try to keep within vague proximity of the truth, or, if you so desperately need to be disingenuous, at least try to do a better job of masking it.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 8:00 pm
Johnboy, can you not see the irony of accusing Pyscho Milt of plumbing the depths by referring to ‘teacher haters’ in the same comment where you call teachers ‘socialist scum’?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
As for the general noisy campaigning of a minority – after all only around 10% have refused to fully implement national standards (and even most of those are only deferring a small part of the detail) – a few select govt interventions in the form of commissioner appointments will soon take care of them.
Despite the attempted claims of a small group a couple of days ago, the Minister will find it very easy to take severe action should she choose to. A failure to implement legally authorised standards can only but place a risk on educational performance. (That particular clause under s60A makes it pretty obvious that those who might try to oppose would be easily out maneuvered if ‘push came to shove’)
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
If an employer wants to change a process then surely that is a right.
Schoolchildren don’t have an employer. Those of us paying the govt to do its job have the right to expect it will actually give a shit about implementing educational changes properly.
Look if the teachers can articulate why they’re against them, fine.
What’s to articulate? It’s been thrown together in a hurry, imposed without consultation or oversight and without any attempt to pilot it. If it was a project in your own organisation, let alone a nation-wide project affecting children’s education, would you have any great difficulty articulating why the people responsible should be clearing their desks?
…the current socialist scum that like to regard themselves as teachers…
Yeah, where the fuck do I get off, calling you a teacher-hater? The effrontery!
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
“What’s to articulate?”
Their reasoning Milt.
The National Standards is a single addition, not replacement, to the current standards + publication of the cleansed results.
In other words, everything carries on as normal, with no deletions or changes in anyway, but for two read it, two, additions.
What’s wrong with that, precisely?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
“Yeah, where the fuck do I get off, calling you a teacher-hater? The effrontery!”
Your confusion is to be excused Psycho.
It’s obvious that like me you have confused “socialist scum” with “teachers”.
Fortunately Ann Tolley hasn’t made the same mistake and is only too certain with whom she is dealing with.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Has Tolley apologised for her blatant lie about what the averaged teacher gets paid? She claimed it was over $70,000 which of course was false. Why is saying sorry often the hardest thing to say?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Keep going Psycho Milt, you are still winning.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
How much is it, Ross?
And why is it germane?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
reid, when teachers are striking it might be interesting to ask why the Minister of Education would lie about the average salaries of teachers.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
“Its only the teachers who get enough holidays to bugger off to Fiji. What is it, ? 3 months , plenty of time for island hopping”
Pauleastbay- I’ll give you that one.
“Please Psycho, you really think trialing the standards is really going to change the unions record?”
Caleb, I don’t really care what track the unions take over this issue- I’m not ‘left’, nor am I teacher, but my interest is in the best possible system- trialling the system is what parents and students deserve not a rushed, flawed system, with little provision for claw-back.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 9:42 pm
In other words, everything carries on as normal, with no deletions or changes in anyway, but for two read it, two, additions.
So, suddenly it’s an insignificant change from existing procedures? I guess that’s why National was making it a significant plank of their election campaign – they didn’t want voters to get all excited and imagine electing them would actually achieve anything. Hmm – come to think of it, that seems surprisingly plausible…
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
So Tolley is a liar? Looks like she is blatantly……..right.
From the MoE website:
Teacher average pay
This factsheet sets out the average total pay increases for teachers between 2000 and 2010, comparing them to increases in inflation and pay increases in other sectors.
Pay increases since 2001
Overall average pay increases, 2000-2010
Between March 2000 and March 2010, overall average teacher pay (salary plus allowances) in state and state integrated schools increased as follows.
Secondary teachers’ average pay increased 45.4%, from $47,764 to $71,110.
Vote:Primary teachers’ overall pay increased 52.2%, from $42,228 to $66,951.
Area school teachers’ overall pay increased 50.9%, from $45,936 to $68,535.
The overall average increase was 49.6%, from $44,524 to $68,767.
November 7th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Johnboy variously wrote;
“The teachers are ruled by a bunch of commo fucks called the PPTA.”
and
“You would be bloody surprised how quickly the solidarity of the PPTA dissolved…”
and
“Fuck I’m dumb. Must have been educated in NZ by a seriously committed PPTA member eh!”
and
“Wanking is due to be incorporated into national standards as soon as the PPTA has totally assessed it.”
The dumb bit is correct, you’ve really proved your great intellect and grasp of the subject here today.
The letters that make up the abbreviation PPTA come from the words POST Primary Teachers Association. You know, post, as in after! That is, the PPTA represents teachers that work in secondary schools, years 9 – 13.
Vote:The national standards are being implemented in primary schools, years 1 – 8, and the primary school teachers are represented by the NZEI, the NZ Educational Institute.
Just doing my bit to eradicate stupidity.
November 7th, 2010 at 10:12 pm
“suddenly it’s an insignificant change from existing procedures”
No not suddenly Milt, it’s always been this way.
“I guess that’s why National was making it a significant plank of their election campaign”
Were they? I hadn’t realised. Do you think that made any difference, either way, given what we all know happened back then, 1.5 years ago?
So anyhoo Milt, can I assume you’re now happy to drop your opposition, or do you have some other problem, other than the fact Liarbore aren’t currently in power?
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
Heh, this is why I laugh at “state provided anything”, it becomes corrupted by socialists who fuck it all up in the name of those they say they act for. Thank God my kids are in the private system and will never encounter a socialist teacher nor a unionised principal. Fuck all of that.
And just last week I had an MRI at the time that suited me without waiting for 6 months, private insurance is the way to go, medically speaking.
Fuck the state and its employed drones’ demands.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
reid, yes, national standards were part of National’s election campaign. I think that and increasing the subsidy to private schools might have been their total education policy.
Vote:November 7th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
Good to know if I call someone a dick on this it won’t get moderated out like on Red Alert. So how many kids come out of private schools and make a big fackin splash? Other than the B Ark variety, politicians and economists? I can think of plenty of famous All Blacks, Chefs, killer ap inventors other entrepreneurs and artists who came through public schools. Guess there has got to be somewhere to incubate the drones.
I reserve the right to send my kids to private school at some stage though. Mine need the manners.
I’m a parent who presented a petition against National Standards last week. bought the total signatories on petitions against Nat S to over 38,000. Much good it did me cos apart from RNZ no-one wants to know unless you’re fronting as an obvious target ie labor or union affiliated. I’m a raving capitalist by the way apart from having voted Labour previously on occasion cos you know they’re meant to be nicer to the little guy and dolies like I was.
National Standards are a shite idea for the following reasons: 1.Educational outcomes correlate only with decile, so assessment against standards is not going to tell anybody anything apart from giving kids the message they are sub-standard from the start. So if you come from a disadvantaged family to start with having that kind of assessment is going to crush any kind of desire to achieve into the ground.
Kids do better being set goals and given recognition when they achieve them.
2. It stifles creativity. My son’s class wrote stories and had a book launch that the principal and parents attended last term. That was pure gold and that is what I want to see more of, not stats about how many goody two shoes achieved a pass on some arbitrary test.
3. It’s bad for boys learning. My oldest son hates writing and I won’t force him in case he grows up to join some kind of right wing nutter group. He learned to write when he needed to to buy a school bought lunch and I figure that writing can go by the wayside somewhat seeing as he cleans up in his maths and reading.
Vote:Mostly parents who are informed don’t like National Standards but are too busy washing dishes and changing crappy nappies to make too much of a fuss. And it’s not as sexy as protesting about the environment. But we hates it hobbitses.
November 7th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
Hear, hear!
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 4:18 am
[johnboy 6:42] Works for me.
cheers
David Prosser
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 5:10 am
I think its about time we have a Rally to Restore Sanity AND/OR Fear, DPF you’d be the NZ equivalent of Jon Stewart/Colbert, providing commentary with light hearted satire….yes no? Time to show the true colours of unions once and for all.
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 6:41 am
Monique
I know dozens of informed parents who support National Standards and cant understand why the unions are making such a fuss. They like the additional feedback on where their child sits in the big picture view. It’s not rocket science. It doesn’t replace a report and its not the core of a child’s education and its not going to get in the way of things like the book launch you mentioned. Is the whole system to be dismissed because your son hates writing and you dont want to be reminded that on that one front he might be below par.
The “what about a trial first” approach comes straight out of the Yes Prime Minister playbook and is a time honoured way for those who oppose change to stifle it.
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 6:48 am
bigjeanie: there’s a reason they only provide figures from 2001 onwards.
Reid: if the changes are so insignificant, I’m sure the govt won’t mind dropping them, given the amount of trouble they’re causing. Or does it have some other reason for forcing these “insignificant changes” on the sector, other than that it would love a showdown with the education unions?
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 6:53 am
> And why is it germane?
If Tolley is prepared to blatantly lie about what the average teacher gets paid, don’t you think she might be capable of lying about the benefits of National Standards? She has zero credibility.
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 7:05 am
An untrained teacher is apparently paid about $30,000 and the top of a qualified teacher’s salary is $68,980. Depending on their qualifications and experience, many teachers are paid between these levels. But it’s clear that the average salary is less than $68,980…and that the Minister is lying through her teeth when she claims it is more than $70,000.
A recent report – Education at a Glance – revealed New Zealand teachers are some of the lowest paid in the OECD, despite working more hours than most of their overseas counterparts. The report found that, after 15 years’ experience, a New Zealand teacher made $10,000 a year less than their OECD counterparts, on average. They also started on an average of $10,000 less than their Australian counterparts. If the Minister has her way, that gap will widen.
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 9:05 am
Ross We are ALL paid less than others in the OECD. By NZ standards, NZ teachers are very well paid. In secondary we have had nearly a 50% increase over the last 10 years. Not bad. Did you?
Vote:I think you will find the Minister is right about salaries.
November 8th, 2010 at 9:17 am
Ross
You obviously didnt see David’s post on this a few months ago on comparative salaries between various OECD countries (club of the world’s 30 wealthiest countries).
He analysed a graph linked to per capita GDP (Gross Domestic Product). GDP is universally considered the best overall assessment of the wealth of a country because it takes the total aggregate value of all annual wealth production in a country in a given comparison year and divides it by population. It enables comparisons to be made between countries to assess their respective levels of wealth. Most per capita GDP comparisons use USD$ but this graph uses what is called PPP (or Purchasing Power Parity). This measure adjusts the USD$ amount by reflecting localized anomalies that can be distorted by a pure USD$ rendering – these include cost of living and inflation rate adjustments that tend to smooth out exaggerations caused by wild exchange rate fluctuations.
So the per capita GDP figures with the PPP adjustments look like this (these figures average the 3 different measuring agencies – the World Bank, the IMF and the CIA) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita:
Luxemburg $80,124
US $46,417
Australia $38,980
UK $35,438
France $33,723
New Zealand $27,577
New Zealand is 40% less wealthy than the US, 30% less wealthy than Australia and 22% less wealthy than the UK. This wealth disparity lies at the heart of the salary/wage differential between NZ and other English speaking OECD countries and helps explain why teacher’s salaries aren’t as high as in Australia.
But then an even more interesting set of statistics puts the teacher’s pay demands and complaints into a fascinating perspective. The OECD in Paris publishes a comparison of teachers salaries amongst member countries rendering them in the same PPP version of USD$ as the per capital GDP graph above http://www.oecd.org/document/52/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_45897844_1_1_1_37455,00.html#d and the category to click on for the graph is D3
David took a standardized comparison as a baseline between each country of the salaries of primary school teachers with 15 years experience (each rendered in USD$ adjusted for PPP) and then compared those salaries with the average per capita GDP, so we are able see how well teachers are paid relative to the average income enjoyed by each person in the country as a whole:
Australia $46,096 salary vs $38,980 GDP per capita = 118% ratio
UK $44,630 vs $34,619 = 129%
France $31,927 vs $33,679 = 95%
Luxembourg $67,723 vs $78,395 = 86%
US $44,172 vs $46,381 = 95%
NZ $38,412 vs $26,708 = 144%
The highest paid teachers (of the 6 countries in this comparison) in terms of where their average salaries stack up in comparison with the average per capital GDP of their country is NEW ZEALAND. Only France pays its teachers less than NZ on a USD$ PPP comparative basis and both the US and Luxemburg pay their teachers on average slightly less than the GDP average. NZ on the other hand pays its teachers well above the GDP average of other New Zealanders.
The sad reality is that whilst NZ’s pie does get bigger each year it doesn’t get bigger as fast as Australia’s does and so because Australia’s pie gets bigger faster, over time the slice the government can cut for teachers salaries there grows more rapidly than in NZ and thus the wage disparity continues to grow. The PPTA and NZEA of course think that the wealth gap can be lobbied or legislated away. It can’t. Unless NZ embraces the reforms that will lead to real sustained growth, NZ wage and salary earners face an ever growing gap with other countries.
I’m sympathetic to the plight of teachers. I believe good teachers should be paid more. Unfortunately the teachers unions will never allow that to happen – merit pay being a major no no
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Teachers are not professionals. They have no professioanl standards body – only unions.
Vote:November 8th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
“[DPF: Pharmac work,s well because they are independent. In your model the NZMA would do the job of Pharmac]”
DPF: Pharmac is independent from MoH, and many of their employees happen to be NZMA members- their independence was why the National government couldn’t bully them into funding the 9mo course of herceptin. In ‘my model’ the experts would be free to make the best decisions, not the politically desired or convenient ones (within the boundaries of their funding etc.). Some of the experts would probably happen to be union members (although, you’ll note that NZMA isn’t a union- the medical equivalents would be the ASMS and NZRDA).
“Teachers are not professionals. They have no professioanl standards body – only unions.”
Paulus: You’re wrong- a simple google search would have shown you this: http://www.teacherscouncil.govt.nz/. Teaching is a traditional profession/vocation along with law, nursing, and medicine- I’d be interested to know what made you think otherwise.
Vote: