Pike River Day IV
November 22nd, 2010 at 10:00 am by David FarrarNZPA report:
Prime Minister John Key says he is praying that the 29 men trapped at Pike River are safe.
“I just pray to God that they are alive,” he said.
“Obviously we need to begin a rescue as soon as we practically can, and we just pray that they have managed to secure an oxygen source.”
I think many NZers have also been praying for a good outcome. The news is not promising sadly, based on a blast survivor:
“Because I wasn’t as far up … the explosion wasn’t as bad for me. It just bowled me over and knocked me unconscious and someone dragged me about 300 metres, brought me around and then two of us held each other to get out of the mine.”
Mr Smith described the explosion as quick and without heat or smell.
“I just remember seeing a flash of something in front of me and then the concussion hit me. It wasn’t just a bang. It just kept coming, kept coming, kept coming.
“So I crouched down as low as I could in the seat to try to get behind this metal door [on the loader he was driving] to stop being pelted with all this debris …
I just couldn’t breathe and that’s the last I could remember and then someone found me about 15 minutes or so later.”
Mr Smith said the next thing he remembers is looking out of the ambulance as it was driving into Greymouth.
The concussion must have been very severe for those further in.
It must be awful for the families who are hoping for the best, but also getting prepared for the worst. Hopefully today there may be a resolution.
November 22nd, 2010 at 10:06 am
All this praying to God and hoping for a miracle must be driving the athiest nogod.org.nz lobby crazy.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 10:19 am
I too hope for the best possible result.
I also hope that the armchair critics of the rescue operation STFU, as from what I have read this weekend they don’t know shit from chewed dates!!!!!
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 10:21 am
Pray to god? Given our local primary school just banned xmas , I’m not sure that the teachers would find it appropriate for the PM to offend the muslims/bhuddists/other religions like this.
Regarding the miners, they say they cannot go in due to the gas levels. But, are they doing anything to clear out the gas?
Or, is there nothing that can be done other than wait for gas levels to fluctuate naturally?
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 10:34 am
They said they don’t want to introduce more air than they are currently pumping in, as it could change the dynamics. An assumption is that if the explosion used up the oxygen in the mine, and methane levels are still dangerous, then introducing more oxygen increases the chances of more ignition.
I presume it depends on the mix of gases they are detecting. If it was all exhaust gases then more flushing could be a safe option, but if there is still too much methane then air makes it dangerous. And if there is still unsafe levels of methane it could suggest it is still leaking into the mine.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 10:36 am
wreck
What primary school was that?
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 10:40 am
When someone says they are “praying to god” it’s hard to know if it is literal or a figure of speech. I might say I’m praying to god about something as it sounds a bit better then “hope like hell”, it doesn’t have to mean I pray or think praying will help. Praying can help some individuals with coping and emotions but it won’t change the situation, for example no amount of praying will plug a methane vent.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 10:46 am
It sounds like more effort is being employed than “I’ve got my fingers crossed”?
I heard some bloke (Professor?) from the Mining Engineering dept at the Univ of NSW on the radio earlier – he suggested that the scenario where all the miners are sitting around the air supply waiting patiently to be rescued is pretty low on the probability scale.
My view of the glass is very much of how empty it is right now….
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 10:54 am
Police Superintendent Gary Knowles, the Tasman Police District Commander, would do better to get out of his police uniform and put on a pair of overalls and carry a hard hat – the present image is too reminiscent of the Kahui Case fuck-up when the who nation urged action and there was none.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:04 am
Conceivably they could pump in a breathable extinguishing gas such as INERGEN (http://www.bfrl.nist.gov/866/HOTWC/HOTWC2006/pubs/R0301006.pdf) but the internal volume of the mine would probably be too great for it to be practical.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:12 am
Yeah, it’s just a figure of speech. I’m sure no-one actually thinks praying is more effective than, you know, an actual rescue attempt.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:14 am
It’s a pretty scary scenario, I’m surprised that they’ve not tried to contact base, but you never know, if they are alive they’ll know help is on the way as fast as humanely possible & the last thing they would want to do is try & move to contact base if that risked causing another explosion.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:15 am
PUZZLED I. E……….My image was of the old Indian Shopkeeper shot and wounded by an armed robber who fled the scene. The Police waited at a safe point about a block away complying with every textbook regulation in case the robber came back. It was a textbook operation but rigor mortis was setting in when they went into the shop a couple of hours later. Conversely a recent incident in which an Inspector O’Leary of Hastings off duty came across a car on fire and incredibly bravely extracted two children from it despite being badly burned and knowing the vehicle could explode at any time. Lives are saved when brave men risk their lives doing dangerous actions.
Vote:Praying seemed to me to play a big part in the Peruvian rescue.
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:20 am
Names have been released by the police. It confirms that who we knew as Kojak is one of those still in the mine. The Herald spelled his name wrong but the police have it right.
Zapper, if you had ready any of the survivor accounts, reports from the experts at the mine and reports on similar types of mine accidents you would understand why an actual rescue attempt is still on hold. Putting more people in potentially grave danger to confirm what’s looking more and more like the obvious would be more than stupid.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:38 am
Well lets see all the worlds best experts on this situation are currently located at Pike River mine including the guys who dealt with the mine explosion in West Virginia.
Call me a wacked out redneck – and god knows some of you do – but I’m thinking that collectively thy might just know what they’re doing.
Of pumping fresh in I say that from my experience with expanding gas weapons systems that if you have a volitile gas and you want it to explode putting in under a higher presure would be your first step for sure.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:42 am
Maybe the police should get some advice from Kiwiblog commenter’s and MSM reporters because it sounds to me like they’ve got all the answers.
Also, I enjoyed Damien O’Conner and Chris Auchinvole telling Paul Homes on Q&A to naff off after constantly asserting that West Coast families were extremely frustrated and angry with the lack of effort by rescuers. Paul defending his “colleagues in the media” and said how sensitive they are, and then proceeded to ask another insensitive question.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
As a local it is all starting to hit.
Vote:It is just awful.
I didn’t realise until today just how many people I know that are involved.
One lovely lady that has 5 kids may have lost her husband.
Kids that play in my kids league comp may have lost their Dad or Grand dad.
It is going to have a huge effect on the community.
We need a miracle.
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
Yeah screw all the so called experts that have flown in from actual mine rescue experience.
Don’t forget that these West Coasters are Helen Clarks feral inbreds as well.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:48 am
East Wellington Superhero……You are on to it mate.
I reiterate my comment above!!!!!!!! re shit and stewed dates.
The best rescue minds are on the case. (and yes I am qualified to comment)
Some commentators here could not organise a piss up in a brewery.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:48 am
Murray – they won’t be increasing the pressure in the mine, as the air they are pumping in is displacing air inside the mine, which will exit out other ventilation shafts. They are increasing the air flow not the pressure.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 11:51 am
Ok. For all you idiots who want to charge in and save everyone before we know it’s safe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crandall_Canyon_Mine
Oh, and will someone make Mayor Tony Kokshoorn shut up? He’s a politician, not a miner or a rescue expert, yet he keeps leaking info to the press and making statements on behalf of both the mine company, the rescuers, and the families. For those of us with family in the mine, one of the worst moments was when he told the media on the morning after the explosion, that the rescue teams had the all clear and were going in. We all felt relieved, called friends and family to let them know that the rescue was underway and prepared ourselves for the outcome…….. turns out that Kokshoorn was completely wrong and the rescue was never underway at all- he raised our hopes and then they were crushed. I see him today cruising around in a fluoro vest, getting in front of the cameras, telling the media what he thinks is happening next, making pointless statements like ‘today is crunch day’ and other unhelpful nonsense.
Vote:He’s a meddling politician with very little relevance to the situation and no influence at all on the outcome. So far he’s part of the problem, not the solution.
November 22nd, 2010 at 11:55 am
Then you better give the police site commander a call gazz because you seem to know something that none of the people on site do.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 12:02 pm
helmet, I guess Kokshoorn is trying to be helpful but also from a distance it seems like he is meddling far too much in things that aren’t his to be dealing with.
I can understand the media will want to keep going to him for what every tidbits he can spout, they’ve had a huge story and not enough to do. At least he may divert a bit of the pressure off the media wanting to hassle the families.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Murray – ??? You were commenting that it’s a dumb idea to increase the pressure in the mine and I said that it won’t increase the pressure in the mine because all they are doing is increasing the airflow.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Pete- yeah I understand that. Call me cynical but it’s just like a politician to always position himself in front of the cameras isn’t it?
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Pete – my comment came across not quite as intended. I meant that exactly what they’re doing is far more effective than sitting around praying. Testing the air etc to determine the best response is far wiser than charging in and I would never sit here in front of my keyboard and presume I know better, let alone insist men should brazenly risk their lives.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Zapper – fair enough, I may not have read that well either, I agree with what you’ve said now.
gazz – increased airflow into a restricted space will increase pressure unless something else is changed to compensate eg less restricted outlets.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Mines and submarines. Still the twin peaks of my places to avoid list. After several days of toxic fumes pouring out I’m not optimistic about the miners’ chances at all.
Gazza – Murray put a pretty clear qualifier on that, that it was his humble opinion only and based on completely different background. His comments on this thread are right on the money.
It’s easy for lay people like myself to say “Why doesn’t someone just get some Fireman’s breathing gear and a torch and go in there?” but it does require an assumption that the people in charge on site are incompetent fools, and I’m not ready to go there.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Survivor Daniel Rockhouse was fortunate to escape the full force of the blast by refuelling his loader at a stub, a branch off the main tunnel,thereby escaping the fireball that surged past him.
Vote:Russell Smith the other survivor was also fortunate in that because he was late for work he was only 500m into the tunnel but still was affected from the blast.
Both men were very lucky that the air filtration system carried the bulk volume of the explosion out through the vents in a huge fireball followed by a cloud of carbon monoxide.
The men further up in the mine close to the face would not have had that luck and it’s probably best to leave it to the authorities to advise on that.
It is a tragedy, an unfortunate mining accident.
November 22nd, 2010 at 1:23 pm
It seems that Goff (like Klark before him) cannot resist a photo opportunity, quite why Goff feels that he needs to be at Pike River is beyond me.
The man is a shameless chancer, what little respect I had for him is now gone.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Hey Kev. Maybe you know something we don’t, but it sounds like you’ve got quite the imagination.
If nobody was at the top of mountain near the (unmanned) air vents when the explosion happened, how do you know that there was a “huge fireball followed by a cloud of [invisible] carbon monoxide”?
And pray tell, why, if the huge fireball ‘surged past’ the guys in the main tunnel, did it not make a mere further 500m to the entrance of the tunnel, which was manned and had people watching it? Perhaps people just didn’t notice the giant fireball and blast as the hot flames and toxic gasses enveloped them while they stood outside?
Perhaps we should fly you down to the mine right now, could we please use your extraordinary powers of remote extra-sensory observation to look through the rocks into the mountain and see if the boys are ok?
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Helmet, nice set of arguments, now I understand a bit better why there is real hope. My best wishes for everyone involved.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 3:14 pm
It seems that the location on DOC land isnt helping. I see DOC had to give permission for a track to be cut just to get access for the rescue gear. We cant know at this stage how significant it was that the access is so difficult but would be a big blow if this was a major factor in not getting accesss earlier.
My heart goes out to the guys and their families and friends and with Xmas not far away lets hope for a special early present for them all.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 3:32 pm
The worst partn of this whole episode is actually that it has been captured by the 30 minute and 60 minute news cycles. Unless the news editors can put some different words in front of the newsreaders for every bulletin they will lose their captive audience (who will tune in early so as not to miss anything and will have to listen/watch all those lovely profitable ads). So we are getting increasingly desperate reporters in great numbers under pressure to create the drama if there is none to report. The downside of modern media I’m afraid but it would not surprise me if it becomes hazardous to the health of the media parasites if they push any harder.
The other issue I have with the media is that they put young females barely out of high school up to report on this sort of thing with the result that the loader driver who made his way out of the mine was “blown off his loader driver” by the blast and the breathless reporting of traffic at the roadblock 40kms from the mine site. These kids wouldn’t know what a shovel full of coal looked like, let alone appreciate the explosive power of fuel/air mixtures which means that they can’t even ask intelligent questions and the GM of Pike River Coal has to keep starting his press conferences with a session on “clearing up the mis-reporting”
Bah humbug
rant over
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 3:46 pm
Agree with you 100% David. TVOne did have Peter Williams and he lends some gravitas to the proceedings but generally the media need to get those little kiddie reporter females off a story like this and let the grown up report it seriously.
Again my heart goes out to the guys and their loved ones and we hope for a good outcome
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 4:11 pm
This is unfortunately typical of reporting now, they end up making it all about themselves –
Vote:“This is as close as WE are allowed to get, later this morning WE will see the buses with family members on board pass US as WE wait moaning about not getting any decent coverage for OUR next bulletin. The police won’t let US talk to family members so WE can get some closeups of tears and despair so I get to say who I am on the news.”
November 22nd, 2010 at 5:37 pm
A lot of talkback callers are bit pissed off with him. Can’t be too hard on him although he does seem to have a belligerent sort of attitude when a reporter throws him the hard questions, which grates a bit. The mining industry guys should have the final say, put the cops at the road leading to the mine to turn back rubber neckers.
I’m impressed by Peter Whittall, seems like a very empathetic guy.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 6:15 pm
@Shunda,
I know a little about this type of stuff (I am sure you saw my post yesterday).
Mate,
nothing I (nor anyone else) here can say, is gonna make it better for you and yours. And though we cannot make it better for you, your family, your friends or your community, we wish we could. And if it would make one millionth, tiny little bit of difference, I [personally] would fly down there, from where I am, to make it better. But I can’t.
In the intervening hours and days, I am so sorry for your pain and your stress. And I know that I am not unusual in this: our whole country is sitting by your phones and ‘we are running beside you”.
I still hope, yet; that I am not sorry for your loss.
In the meantime, here’s what I can tell you:
If the worst happens, despite these ‘hoping/preparing days” it will still be a massive thunderbolt.
For the immediate wives and sisters and sons and daughters and brothers and uncles and, For the immediate family, it will hurt most piercingly. But we also know that pain is carried by the community as well. Shunda, and your friends and acquaintances and your community: take strength. There is no refuge from loss and grief, but together you all can make sense of this.
If the repeaters keep harassing you and yours, or if they harass friends, family, community: close ranks. Don’t speak. When you all become tired and angry and sad, talk to each other and talk to your families (near and far) but shut the parasites out. One month from now, they won’t care about you all, they’ll just be onto the next “headline” or “salacious” thing.
As a final thought:
If the best happens, the relief and happiness will be universal and we will celebrate with you, and I will lift a glass to providence and to Kiwis everywhere. We wait and we hope and we always can ask for a miracle (secular or otherwise, at this point; I don’t care!).
With the best hope in my heart and warm feelings.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 6:35 pm
TVNZ, and I’m sure TV3 are doing the same, are sucking the life’s-blood out of this story…are there any reporters left in the studio?…Jack Tame’s intro about “As the Grey river slowly drifts toward another dark night” (or words to that effect) had me reaching for the bucket…and the reporter at the road block, who advised that progress was being made towards whether or not a rescue attempt would be made FFS…I can hardly wait for Mark Sainsbury’s contribution at seven.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 6:54 pm
Patience is sometimes very hard, eh. No ranting by anyone now will alter the outcome, will it?
Vote:Enquiries will come in time. And I hope they are fullsome.
November 22nd, 2010 at 8:08 pm
The most interesting observation about the politicians visiting the Pike River site is that not only has our Head of State, (ie the Governor General) not turned up, but no one has even asked “Why not?” President Bush was pilloried for failing to observe this basic duty.
Our Governor General is the Head of State and that is their function – to present the image of National Unity at times of distress just as the King and Queen of England did when they refused to leave London at the height of the Blitz.
Vote:So two questions come to mind.
Where is our Head of State? But also, if he did arrive how would he be received?
This should focus our attention on an important constitutional issue.
November 22nd, 2010 at 8:36 pm
East Wellington Superhero suggests:
I wasn’t aware there was a need for speed radars at the site. If there’s not, the police should f-off out of it, get back to the roadblocks where they know what they’re doing, and stop making pronouncements on matters about which they know nothing.
It’s all very well to criticise the Mayor for spouting off when he knows very little, but on the weekend we had Superintendent Gary Knowles saying any rescue would be “half arsed” and, as Dazzaman notes, adopting a “how dare you” demeanour when the media ask why he’s sitting on his hands.
It sounds to me like there are too many egos running round there looking for a camera and barking orders to people who probably know a hell of a lot more than they do.
As Puzzled in Ekatahuna says:
But then he’d be relegated to just taking orders from mining experts, and we can’t have that. backster’s comparison with the farcical response to the shooting of the Indian shopkeeper is very apt. This isn’t a police matter. If a crime has been committed that’ll emerge much later. Get them the hell out of the way and put someone in charge who knows a mine from a hole in the ground.
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 8:48 pm
how did the human race get into space?
Vote:November 22nd, 2010 at 9:14 pm
I watched over the weekend a documentary about the WWII battle at Stalingrad. They had some computer models that graphically showed why a bomb in a intacked building was far more destructive than the same bomb in a building that had the roof already blown off.
An enclosed space makes the shock wave massively stronger and longer. This is a far to real example of that. Given the comments of the guy who was relatively far away / out of the way. I would be very surprised if anyone else makes it out.
Also if there is a fire smoldering, pumping more air (oxygen) into the mine would make things worse. Also adding more oxygen could increase the risk of methane or coal dust explosion.
However I am surprised that there are not semi automatic / robotic systems that have very low probability of sparking that are specifically designed so issues such as this. I guess saving people in a mine doesn’t quite get the funding that fighting a war does.
Vote:November 23rd, 2010 at 6:53 am
Whenever I hear of “praying to God”, I’m reminded of the wisdom of an old-school parish priest who said:
“When praying for help in a crisis, the answer’s not 99 percent God and 1 percent you. It’s the other way around.”
Vote:November 23rd, 2010 at 9:22 am
good comments there stickshark, (re: shockwave) got me thinking back to my days spent in the physics and engineering classrooms. I imagine that the shockwave would have propagated towards the end of the shaft and hit the end, causing an effect like water hammer (for those who don’t know what that is, it’s the massive knock you hear when you shut a water valve of fast causing a back propagating wave that hits the first thing closed off and “BANG”).
The wave then probably bounced off the end of the shaft or was completely absorbed by the rock (probably a bit of both). The position where those poor chaps were, they probably experienced the energy (or part of) that wave twice (unlike the lucky man who got knocked over when the wave was exiting out of the mine). If energy(in the form of a wave) has no escape route its either reflected or absorbed (explains your effect of the explosion occuring in a closed building vs open)
I’m not sure why a robot can’t be put down, there is ATEX spark free motors used in Zone 0 (permenantly explosive atmospheres). A Robot is just a bunch of motors and servos…………..I guess whatever they do there is a risk
ps Stalingrad – great movie, thought the book is better, haven’t read the Anthony Beaver version yet. The sniper dual is a bit exagerated in then movie.
pss -piss of the armchair critic tossers and media waiting for a miracle or tragic outcome, you are the leeches of society. I’m just waiting for the Greens to start profiting about carbon credits and why NZ shouldn’t be mining fullstop. If anyone can help those men it is the experts on the ground and a good amount of luck. Kia kaha fellers, I hope you get out.
Vote: