Pike River Day X
November 28th, 2010 at 5:28 pm by David FarrarTwo significant things today.
We had explosion no 4. So on average an explosion every second day or so.
John Key has announced on Q+A that the Commission of Inquiry will be a Royal Commission. There is no real difference in powers (the legislation does not distinguish) and the “official” guidelines are that Royal Commissions in recent times have been for social policy inquiries. But the nice thing about being Prime Minister is you can decide to ignore things such as guidelines.
I suspect he was motivated by the fact Erebus was a Royal Commission, and not wanting this to be seen as inferior.
All eyes will be on the name of the Judge selected to chair it.
November 28th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
What the fuck is Wishart doing?
He should have rescued all 29 by now, according to him that his.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 6:55 pm
Plenty of people were thinking the same thing as Wishart early on in the proceedings.
I welcome a Royal Commission of enquiry.
Vote:This can only make future mining in NZ safer, but not 100% safe, in the future.
November 28th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
My picks for the chair of the Royal Commission are, in no particular order, Pankhurst, Heath or Venning.
[DPF: You were right!]
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
And it should be hoped that any investigation will be coldly logical, devoid of sentiment, and utterly ruthless in apportioning blame. And if significant criminal negligence is uncovered, those responsible should be looking forward to manslaughter charges, and possible imprisonment. This is essential to avoid events of this horrific magnitude in future.
We would not want to see a repeat of the way the Mangatepopo gorge incident was handled. No one was held responsible, and an organisation, not a person, was punished with a fine. It seems because someone cries, is extremely regretful (how could they not be), and is a ‘nice’ person, and one you would enjoy a beer with, all should be forgiven. That is fucked up. It does not matter if the person responsible happened to be Mother Theresa. You fuck up, you bear the consquences.
Often it is assholes who are the best leaders, not sentimental pricks who want to be everyone’s friend. The latter type make me sick. Because they are more concerned with feeling liked, than getting the job done and moving things forward. Barack Obama and John Key seem to be of this ilk.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Zhumao.. while I agree with your sentiments, I want to know if you are Zhumao 1 or version 2 through 10??
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
A very interesting, but disturbing read.
Vote:http://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2010/11/whitall-claimed-mine-was-non-outburst.html
November 28th, 2010 at 7:48 pm
So it seems that we now have Nanny Key telling us what we can and can’t do.
Underground NZ mining may be stopped: PM
Today’s explosion followed a suggestion by the nation’s Prime Minister John Key that New Zealand’s entire underground mining industry could be in doubt in the wake of the disaster.
Announcing he wanted a powerful Royal Commission to investigate the disaster, Mr Key said, “In the end, the future of Pike River and actually underground coal mining in New Zealand rests on this.
“We can’t put people into mines that are dangerous.”
Crossing the road can be dangerous as can going to sleep. FFS
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/world/underground-nz-mining-may-be-stopped-pm/story-e6freoox-1225962243521
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
I consider we need an international presence in the inquiry as we are just a little incestuous when it comes to investigating ourselves.
Vote:Just look at how the Bill Wilson contretemps unfolded.
Justice Mahon came up with a finding that Air New Zealand senior management attempted to mask what was a significant error in the computor headings in the onboard navigation system on TE 901 and the government and Air NZ board freaked out at the potential legal and financial repercussions. I am mindful of the contrast between Morrie Davis and Peter Whittle in the public presentation of the corporate response to tragedy.
Whatever caused the catastrophe that was Pike River Mine, I just hope it is isolated and identified and can prevent a repeat disaster.
November 28th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
Erebus was both a Royal Commission and a Commission of Inquiry.
Key is well within his rights to make it a Royal Commission but he risks looking bloody stupid if he does not make it a Commission of Enquiry.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Sick of this death porn bullshit…get over it NZ you sick c**nts!
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
“…it should be hoped that any investigation will be coldly logical, devoid of sentiment, and utterly ruthless in apportioning blame.”
Zhumao why does the investigation need to be “coldly logical, devoid of sentiment, and utterly ruthless in apportioning blame?”
It’s just the usual western approach to these things is be calculating, unsentimental but not pre-determined in anyway. Even if that means the CEO gets off with no blemish not even one. I’m not saying that will happen I’m saying a fair enquiry needs conducting within that sort of possible outcome framework. If its not then it’s not an enquiry it’s a kangaroo court.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
OK james, I kind of understand your sentiment, but not quite the way you express it. The media really do begin to over play events like this, it was the same with the Canterbury earthquake.
The first 5 or so days they have meaningful stuff to report, but after that it decends into things like tonight where One News reported breathlessly, and somewhat endlessly, about a bunch of guys who sang a few songs and that the All Blacks once again felt sorry.
This is where I start yelling enough already. One could be forgiven for thinking that the media were the ones most affected by this event and just can’t let go.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
Here’s a third issue to add to DPF’s short list. Will Pike River shares be traded again on the NZX from tomorrow?
There was obvious merit in a temporary halt on trading for several days until there was some clarity about the immediate outcome of the first mine blast of 19 November. But why was the trading halt continued right up to the weekend, with no announcement made yet from the NZX about what it intends? The market is better informed now about Pike River than it has ever been. There will be both buyers and sellers out there prepared to reach their own conclusions (or speculation) about whether the mine has any future or financial value. And a period of appropriate sensitivity to be shown towards the families has now come to an end – as witness the Government’s moves to proceed with preparations for a Royal Commission of Inquiry.
A selective trading halt should not be used to shield any public company from the share price consequences of a production, commercial or market problem that it faces. The sole purpose of a halt is to ensure that buyers and sellers in the market have a proper balance of information. Will the NZ stock Exchange recognise the market governance principles involved and remove the Pike River trading halt tomorrow morning?
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Explosion number four. The methane can not escape, it is lighter than air.
Vote:The Greens are very quiet about how to resolve this, how to recover the deceased. Too busy hugging trees, saving snails, ducks.
Royal Commission will just allow those responsible to duck for cover. Yes it was an accident, but an accident by design subject to system failures.
Open cast, then tunnel, then vent restriction. Lay down and protest, snails, ducks …..
Who did this?
November 28th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
Steve, the Greens ensured that the environment won out over humans in this instance by frustrating a vent when a duck of some sort was once seen. Just like the Victorian bush fires where the Greens managed to ban scrub cutting by houses, which as it turns out provided just the fuel for that tragedy. The Greens will always ensure a ban to the detriment of humans. The bastards ought to be sued, or at least put in stocks and egged (organically of course).
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
Rich Prick,
Vote:They caused it collectively, no individual person is to blame. Just fuckwits fed by propaganda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtqSPahiMxw&feature=player_embedded
In the Waikato, the Rotowaro mines have been healed by nature in 30 years
November 28th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
I hope any commission will ignore the ill informed comments by our photo op PM.
He stated that the second explosion proved that not making a rescue attempt was the right decision.
That is crap.
The right decision was made not to attempt a rescue but not for the reason given by Mr I told you so Key.
The likelihood of survivors was very low so a rescue attempt would have a very bad decision.
If there had been tapping and it clear there were survivors a higher level of risk may have justified.
John Key thinks he knows everything and everything. He should STFU and not try and influence and the commission.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
“It’s just the usual western approach to these things is be calculating, unsentimental but not pre-determined in anyway”
Where did I say the outcome should be ‘predetermined’? Of course it should not be predetermined. But, the fact is inquiries of this nature have in the past been precisely that – predetermined. Predetermined in such a way that no individual/s are held accountable. That is the soft cock approach so prevalent in this country.
However, based on my reading into the matter, chats with work colleagues, one of whom is an experienced mining engineer, and my own training in engineering, I will go out on a limb and confidently say that Whittall will, or should, have to bear a large degree of responsibility for what happened. And regardless of the final outcome, he will, or should be the one in the dock.
I am surprised that Whittall has not resigned. The decent thing to do would be to resign forthwith with his ultimate role in the company determined by the outcome of an inquiry. That is the role of the CEO, and that is why the CEO gets paid so much more than the ordinary worker. He gets paid to assume responsibility for things happening under him.
If I was in charge of a building site, and twenty nine workers were killed, that is what I would do, and that is what I would be expected to do. And heads should roll in upper management as well.
My personal feeling, and this is entirely a subjective judgement, is Whittall is a little bit too much of an actor for my liking. Whereas the much maligned Knowles is a thoroughly decent and genuine chap. Just my personal opinion.
“Even if that means the CEO gets off with no blemish not even one. “
That is a ridiculous statement. The reputation of the CEO, just by having this thing happen under him is already marred. Would you hire him? I most certainly fucking would not. How much does a CEO have to fuck up before he is considered no good? CEOs resign, get sacked, simply because the company shares drop in value. Yet this guy has just had 29 workers die under him, in the mine he set up and ran. And people make comments such as ‘Whittall for prime minister”. For fucks sake, wake up.
New Zealanders it seems are suckered into this Hollywood thing. There is a template that must be adopted in order to show just how ‘cut up’ and in grief you are. If you do not adopt this template, you are labelled cold and unfeeling – which is often far from the case. Hence the plaudits for Whittall, and the derision for Knowles. This is completely unfair and immature in my view.
“Sick of this death porn bullshit…get over it NZ you sick c**nts!”
Get off the thread then. This is a discussion about a possible inquiry. The focus is not on the grief of the relatives, or funerals, or bodies or whatever.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
Steve, great clip, had to smile and agree with “the planet is FINE, the people are FUCKED” though, that just so dives a stake through the heart of the Green argument.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Open cast, then tunnel, then vent restriction. Lay down and protest, snails, ducks …..
Who did this?
Are you guys f@cked in the head? Tell me, why the hell was the preferred method of mining Paparoa coal always underground before the green movement came to the fore?
I’ll tell you why, because the Paparoas are an extremely rugged MOUNTAIN range!!
On another day I would join you in combating zealot greenies and their irrationality, but in this instance it is the likes of you wearing the badge of irrational zealot.
Pike river management on open cast: “it would be physically and economically unviable”
Stop flogging this dead and stinking horse.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
“I am surprised that Whittall has not resigned. The decent thing to do would be to resign forthwith with his ultimate role in the company determined by the outcome of an inquiry.”
As a share holder I happy for him to remain as CEO until and IF he is proved negligent.
If I were charged with anything I would hate you to be on my jury.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
High Court Judges are all very clever men and women but the inquiry will not rest on the Judge alone but on the other members of the panel as well. John Key as usual was very impressive on Q & A. He make a very good point on the difference between risk and danger. The PM is getting very good at handling disasters. The pairing with Jerry Brownlee kicks Labour out of the field.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
“the Greens ensured that the environment won out over humans in this instance by frustrating a vent when a duck of some sort was once seen. Just like the Victorian bush fires where the Greens managed to ban scrub cutting by houses, which as it turns out provided just the fuel for that tragedy.”
The role green politics played deserves examining – in due course. The frightening thing about the greens is they are really a bunch of neo-pagans. Pagans in the sense that they worship mountains, rocks, trees, whales, and frogs, over human beings. The end result of this sort of shit, is of course human sacrifice. Whereas a Christian, or humanist (which is really secularised christianity) world view puts human life and human welfare at the top of a list of priorities, and environmentalism is to preserve and protect the environment for human beings to enjoy and prosper from. That is what environmentalism should be about – for the happiness of human beings, not for the frogs and rocks themselves.
But this is certainly not the way many Greens think. They think that say a frog should be protected just because it is a frog, and has certain ‘rights’, at least as a species. The same of course goes for whales and even trees. This is all about the worship and deification of nature and the environment, over the careful stewardship of the environment for future generations of humans to enjoy.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
Zhumao: “Where did I say the outcome should be ‘predetermined’? Of course it should not be predetermined.”
Just as well you won’t be on the Royal Commission then. The rest of your post dwells on what you appear to have concluded is Whittall’s personal responsibility for the Pike River loss of life.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
Or, it was because it was on DOC land and the Greens have a penchant for interfering no matter what open cast would not have been “environmentally” acceptable to the Green Bloc, can you recall the protesters at the time chaining themselves to trees, remember the snails, they cost $12m and it turns out they were everywhere anyway.
Fitzsimmons is on record as saying that Pike was producing “dirty” coal and was part of “yesterday’s” technology (unlike her windfarm company that is paid for by you and I as tax-payers).
What company would attempt any resource consent with the Greens in Government, as they were at the time, when a bunch of hippies were getting excited over snails, chaining themselves to trees and making a media spectical of themselves.
The Greens are anti-human. Apart from themselves with their smug sanctiomonious smiles about vegan vingar and compsting toilets.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
“Hence the plaudits for Whittall, and the derision for Knowles. This is completely unfair and immature in my view.”
I had to pick one quote Zhumao and that was it. There are many many things you raise which are relevant and will be addressed, however your post gives no indication of acceptance of the possibility the CEO wasn’t de facto at fault.
Maybe he was and maybe he wasn’t.
Who knows.
Apparently, you already do.
Some of us prefer to leave it up to the enquiry.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:23 pm
As a share holder I happy for him to remain as CEO until and IF he is proved negligent.
If I were charged with anything I would hate you to be on my jury.
Comparing the evaluation of the performance of a manager, and performance evaluations of staff in the workplace environment, with the rigourous legal protections afforded to defendants in a criminal trial, is way off base, and plain stupid.
A CEO is a buck stops here sort of position, or at least it should be. CEOs will tender their resignations, as will even government ministers when things fuck up within their respective areas of responsibility. This is not where an ‘innocent before guilty’ standard need be applied for heavens sake. Not even the civil courts adopt the same degree of rigour in this respect when it comes to determining legal responsibility.
Again, the CEO is paid to take responsibility for what happened under him. Full stop. If Whittall had any decency he would resign. It is the exact degree of culpability that is for an inquiry to determine, not whether or not he is responsible.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
The mine is dangerous, 4 explosions in one week suggests there is something not right at all with the design. Why we all ask. Clearly the build up in methane is not being extracted fast enough by the ventilation system, such as it is. Again why?? I see the rescue effort will be looked at. That will include whether the Police will continue to co-ordinate mine SAR. I have said this is not a role for plod, though I am sure Knowles was as good as it gets for a police officer, and probably quite adequate for a less specialised SAR operation.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:35 pm
I think the choice of a CEO should be left to the board and shareholders and not bloggers.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
All I want to see is that the terms reference of the inquiry are broad enough to include environmental “concerns” especially as they relate the protesters and the Green Party, and any effect they may have had on the events that have occurred. That’s all.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
TVB, produce some evidence that the Police woefully mishandled this and your claim might have a bit of credence, until then your just sounding like one of those spam bots peddling some junk.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 10:16 pm
I don’t think the police woefully mishandled this. But this is not their role. How could it be. What we want is international best practice. I would hazard a guess that the police do not co-ordinate mining SAR internationally because of the very specialised nature of the operation.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
What we want is international best practice. I would hazard a guess that the police do not co-ordinate mining SAR internationally because of the very specialised nature of the operation.
Let’s see. We have about 4-5 underground mines, the number of mine disasters is low and a population of four million people. I don’t see how we can maintain a specialized mine rescue unit.
Vote:November 28th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
tvb said
Or it could be that the ventilation system was damaged in the first explosion and is not currently operating. Are you a ventilation or mining engineer? No I didn’t think so.
Vote:As for a specialised mines rescue unit – the mines rescue service is run by volunteers who work in the mining industry and that is the case even in the Bowen Basin in QLD where there’s several underground coal mines. The legislation as it stands states that a mine rescue is a police operation in New Zealand; if this were not specified beforehand there would have been a shit fight about who’s in charge. While it may or may not have been the right choice, it was a choice that was made years ago most likely because the police are the organisation who have the most experience in search and rescue. Someone has to be in charge, and their job is to take advice from experts. IMHO it almost certainly made no difference to the outcome.
November 29th, 2010 at 1:00 am
leaving aside teams led by Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis or Arnold Schwarzenegger, I wonder whether any real life rescue team from anywhere in the world would have gone in, and come out alive with the miners or their bodies.There is a woeful propensity on the part of some to assume that, because it was done in NZ, it must be second rate. Well screw that. I would give the rescue team led by Superintendent Knowles a medal for not adding to the tally of stupid needless deaths. I have seen none of the armchair warriors come up with any evidence whatsoever that there was ever a moment at which a safe and effective rescue might have been mounted. Knowles on the other hand had access to global expertise and drew on it to make the right choices.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 1:06 am
@Chuck Bird (1,284) Says:
November 28th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
The reason Mine Rescue did not go in was a large amount of methane was released into the mine after the first explosion.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 1:13 am
“Chuck Bird (1,284) Says:
November 28th, 2010 at 9:12 pm”
Doesn’t matter whether the inquiry finds him culpable or not. The CEO is ultimately responsible regardless. Denis Marshall resigned as Minister of Conservation after Cave Creek even though personally he had nothing to do with it.
I have the highest esteem of Whittall so far but I am just giving him time to clean up the mine and remove the bodies then perhaps he will stand down of his own accord. It would be wise for him to move on just for the sake of his own life as well as giving the company a fresh start, it seems rather likely anyway that the mine will have to find new shareholders or perhaps owners.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 1:18 am
“@calendar girl (461) Says:
November 28th, 2010 at 9:17 pm”
We don’t know the full picture as yet but we do know that Whittall built the mine up from the very beginning. It is likely the inquiry will find there are some questions over the design of the mine, stuff that Mr Whittall was majorly involved with. It’s very unlikely no fault will be found.
You also have to consider how serious this really is. Apart from the loss of life there is likely extensive damage to the mine itself that will take months to repair. Coming at a time when it is already under severe financial strain this is likely to force them into receivership, and new owners are likely to want to make a fresh start.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 1:20 am
“@calendar girl (461) Says:
November 28th, 2010 at 9:17 pm”
I think if Mr Whittall is half the person he is acclaimed for being he is likely to feel responsible.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 1:22 am
“@gazzmaniac (772) Says:
November 28th, 2010 at 11:43 pm”
They had a system called seam gas drainage which was ventilating 800 litres/second of methane. The pipes burst in the first explosion.,
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 1:23 am
I want to know why specialised equipment was not ordered until several days after the explosion. Did Knowles know that such equipment actually existed and WHERE it existed. If not why not. And another thing why was the Minister of Police speaking to Knowles twice a day. Did this assist him or hinder him when he knew the Minister was on his back twice a day. Did Judith Collins have specialist knowledge on mining SAR?? What was the purpose of her involvement.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 6:08 am
Swampy@1.20: “I think if Mr Whittall is half the person he is acclaimed for being he is likely to feel responsible.”
I agree with you entirely on that. But Zhumao seems too keen for my liking on the kangaroo court approach.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 6:54 am
Reports from UK media state that after the fourth explosion at the mine that all “Underground NZ mining may be stopped”.
Guess New Zealand will be relying on the income derived from overseas visitors to the Rugby World Cup next year to pay its way in the world. Those shoe shine boys had better be up to scratch as New Zealand’s future rests on their shoulders.
Now shine my shoes!!
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 7:13 am
Zhumao
I think that a specially appointed High Court judge with full subpoena and evidentiary powers will be give us a far more reliable indication of blame and fault than your rant. If Whittall and the company are in any way culpable I’d expect his resignation but only once the culpability is proven-we do after all live in a democracy where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Likewise if there is any systemic failure unearthed in the Department of Labour Mines investigation process or staff I’d expect the relevant Minister to offer his/her resignation (a la Dennis Marshall Minister of Conservation over Cave Creek) along with the relevant departmental head who oversaw any cockups unearthed.
In the meantime lets allow the gathered SAR experts (some of whom have been interviewed by Catherine Ryan on 9-Noon on Radio NZ) to let the Gag unit do its work to extract gasses from the mine to allow an eventual recovery of the bodies.
Hopefully the Royal Commission will look at the best SAR management model and if the current police led model is the optimal way to do this.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 7:14 am
want to know why specialised equipment was not ordered until several days after the explosion.
What specialized equipment are you referring to? The only one that I can think of is the GAG and using that pretty much kills off the survivors.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 7:29 am
Maybe because it’s not practical to order every bit of specialised equipment that may be needed as soon as there is an explosion, before the situation has been assessed and before they have seen how the situation might develop.
By the look of what is happening now with the ongoing explosions and signs of further combustion why didn’t they just order up a convoy of concrete trucks?
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 7:51 am
Zhumao, I agree with most of your argument but were I part of the Pike River board I would not accept Whittal’s resignation.
He is the man best positioned, at the moment, to finalise the mine operation and assist with any efforts to either completely close the mine or recover the bodies.
James this is the first thread on any blog I’ve read since I first termed the phrase “disaster porn” (on this blog) that talks of Pike River and isn’t.
Grow up!
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 8:13 am
These types of events are not unique. There was one earlier this year in the US. Good planning by the police would have sorted out what to expect from this event. But I just know in my bones the police did very little planning for this event. The lack of confidence on Knowles face said it all. So they winged it day by day and meanwhile people died.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 8:28 am
I think any investigation should have a strong presence of kiwiblog commenters, you’re all fucking experts.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 8:49 am
TVB, obviously you want to blame the police for something, and I’m sure the inquiries will point out some things they could have done better, but there’s a high likelihood all lives were lost before the police had a chance to affect anything.
The two miners that got out were knocked around by the blast and they both nearly succumbed to poisonous gas. They are very lucky to have survived. It is highly likely anyone further in the mine would have been affected more by both the explosion and by gases so there’s probably nothing the police could have done that would change the outcome for the twenty nine – unless they police had planned ahead and roadblocked the mine to stop anyone going in just in case something might go wrong.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 10:51 am
“I think that a specially appointed High Court judge with full subpoena and evidentiary powers will be give us a far more reliable indication of blame and fault than your rant. If Whittall and the company are in any way culpable I’d expect his resignation but only once the culpability is proven-we do after all live in a democracy where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty.”
For fucks sake Kiwi In America, what sort of IQ do you have? Since when has evaluating the performance of a CEO had anything to do with ‘innocent before proven guilty’. For fucks sake, even the civil courts do not have such a high standard of proof. ‘Innocent before proven guilty’ applies only to criminal defendants, and if Whittall is to face criminal charges, then yes that standard would apply.
But we are not talking of that now. CEO’s, ministers of the crown, military commanders, etc resign out of honour for things that happened under their watch, in many cases for events over which they had less control, and with consequences far less horrendous than what happened under CEO Whittall.
To say that a CEO should not resign or be fired because of the presumption of ‘innocent before guilty’ (something that applies only to criminal defendants) is just completely thick. A CEO is hired to run things and take responsibility.
And of course it has nothing to do with living in a ‘democracy’. We live in a political democracy, but that does not mean of course that companies, or businesses have to be run or function in a democratic manner. Far from it. In fact most companies are run as outright dictatorships.
“He is the man best positioned, at the moment, to finalise the mine operation and assist with any efforts to either completely close the mine or recover the bodies.”
That is an excellent point. And he does deserve praise, as I have said before, for fronting up and not ducking his responsibilities, at least after the disaster. But hopefully all this will not make people overlook his possible role in allowing the disaster to happen in the first place, and that any commission of inquiry will have the balls to place blame where it needs to be placed, and even recommend criminal charges if these are warranted.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 11:01 am
“So they winged it day by day and meanwhile people died.”
You were actually being almost reasonable until this comment.
What an utterly digusting and despicable thing to say, you truly are a callous and completely ignorant wee man. And now not only are you unhappy with certain words he used, but your also attacking his facial expression. Pathetic mate.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Yeah it’s a real pity how the gassing-off and then subsequent fire of all that underground coal didn’t play ball with what the humans’ plans right from day one.
In the spirit of “she’ll be right mate”, no-nonsense No.8 wire kiwi ingenuity, I suggest all Kiwiblog pundits who remain convinced a rescue mission is possible, meet up at the police checkpoint at 0700 on Wednesday and show the authorities how it’s done. Bring a torch and some strong footwear. Asbestos undies might be helpful if you have any.
Go, KB team!
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Zhumao
Calm down – it makes zero sense for Whittall to resign now. Even Heywood the BP CEO stayed on long enough to oversee the plugging of their deepwater well and then he resigned and it was reasonably apparent early on that BP had cocked up. I agree with MT – if I was a director I wouldn’t accept his resignation. You seem to want to apportion blame before we know much of why this happened.
It is highly likely that the Royal Commission will uncover some culpability and at that point you are right, it is the honourable thing for him to do to resign. We only seem to disagree about when that might happen. To disagree over that matter doesnt justify your abusive tirade.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
“It is highly likely that the Royal Commission will uncover some culpability and at that point you are right, it is the honourable thing for him to do to resign. We only seem to disagree about when that might happen.”
I accept and take on board that Whittall should hang around now to tidy things up, and indeed is the person best placed to handle the immediate aftermath of the disaster. And he deserves some praise for this.
But as the CEO, his resignation must be a foregone conclusion – regardless of the findings of any Royal Commission. Hayward had perhaps even less direct control over operations on the e Deepwater Horizon oil rig, yet he resigned. That is the responsibility the CEO assumes. He resigns over things that fucked up under him. Facing criminal charges, is of course another matter, and obviously does need to refer to the results of an inquiry and then a fair trial.
My original point is the public adoration of Whittall, fanned on by the mass media, is simply nauseating. Equally frustrating is the denigration of Superintendent Knowles, whose performance, in my opinion, will be judged by any logical analysis of the facts to have been more than adequate.
That one person is judged a hero, the other a zero, seems simply to be decided by screen presence and whether or not one has the ability to shed a fear tears at the right time, appear to be in grief and ‘cut up’ at the right time, and contrived lines like ‘I’m gonna get my boys out of that mine.’ This is just plain immature —the hollywoodisation of global culture. Just totally fucked up.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Go, KB team!
I think you’ll find that not all Kiwiblog commentors believed rushing in to rescue the trapped (or dead) miners was the wisest course of action.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
But we are not talking of that now. CEO’s, ministers of the crown, military commanders, etc resign out of honour for things that happened under their watch, in many cases for events over which they had less control, and with consequences far less horrendous than what happened under CEO Whittall.
I can’t resist, I know its OT…..
Did Mao resign after his ‘Great Leap Forward’ caused the deaths of millions of Chinese? Didn’t think so.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Did Mao resign after his ‘Great Leap Forward’ caused the deaths of millions of Chinese? Didn’t think so.
Not of his own accord, although he did issue a major self-criticism, and was essentially sacked, and retained only as a figurehead. Mao was put to pasture, cold-shouldered by his colleagues, making him feel like a ‘dead ancestor’ in his own words, and basically lost power for four years. That is why, according to Western opinion, he launched his Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution – to regain that power by appealing to the masses to help him destroy the communist party structure which he felt was holding him, and his leftist ideals down (although the truth is far more complex than that). So yes, Mao was punished for the Great Leap disaster, he fucked up and was forced to admit it.
And I don’t think I have ever defended the Great Leap policies elsewhere, so your question is a complete waste of time.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Zhumao
I agree that the media have really over egged the Whittall pudding. Its hard to over state the propensity for the media to exaggerate and misreport these disasters. I was in Christchurch for the 4 Sep earthquake and for 4 days after. I couldn’t believe the images TVNZ and TV3 were broadcasting – they literally set up their cameras in front of the one stretch of road in central Chch with the most number of dramatically damaged buildings and it gave the impression that the city was far more damaged than it was. Please note: I’m not taking away from those in the eastern suburbs still suffering from lack of sewage and watching more and more homes get red stickered with each major aftershock. I’m not in Greymouth and have no direct connections to anyone involved in the Pike River tragedy but I’m guessing that there has been some excessive media mythologising and demonising going on. Supt Knowles I believe will be proven to have largely directed as good a rescue operation that could be mounted given the gas presence after the explosion.
I hope the Royal Commission goes as far investigating why this supposedly more surgical mining technique was appropriate with such gaseous coal. I know that Pike River’s coal was the hard top quality stuff the Chinese desire for quality steel manufacture but we really seriously need to weigh the cost of a disaster like this against a safer open cast mine option that the Greens have so successfully forced off the table as an option with the exaggerated threat of ecological disaster. If this disaster leads to a mature debate about the safest methods to access our mineral resources then that is a good thing.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Cost forced the open cast option off the table for Pike River. The coal is too deep inside a mountain.
Vote:November 29th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
PG
Vote:Agreed re Pike River. I’m talking about open cast mining in general as a technique that, thanks to the Greenies is condemned nationwide.