The Top Gear burqa controversy

December 30th, 2010 at 10:50 am by David Farrar

The NZ Herald reports:

The presenters of motoring show have caused controversy after dressing in burqas while filming an episode in the Middle East.

Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond disguised themselves as women in a Christmas show filmed in Syria.

The Boxing Day episode, broadcast in Britain, featured the hosts driving across the Middle East to trace the path of the Three Wise Men.

However, Muslims in Britain said the show mocked their religion.

Islamic activist Anjem Choudary told the Daily Mail the burqa was a “symbol of our religion and people should not make jokes about it in any way”.

Bzzzt. Wrong answer. No religion should be so intolerent that its adherents demand no jokes be made about it.

Personally the show sounds hilarious, and it would have been equally funny if they had dressed up as Orthodox Jews and driven through Israel. Guess there would be less complaints.

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83 Responses to “The Top Gear burqa controversy”

  1. MT_Tinman (3,066 comments) says:

    I look forward to seeing this show on my television in the near future.

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  2. Brian Smaller (4,029 comments) says:

    Islam has special rules. You should know that by now. The late Ayatollah Khomeni said “there is no fun in Islam”.

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  3. A Nonny Mouse (15 comments) says:

    At the end of the show they do a nativity scene but its not as you’d expect on a Christmas card. A bit offensive to Christians in fact.

    Yet it was the wearing Muslim woman clothing that gets some saying it would be good for them to be hit by an IED.

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  4. m@tt (613 comments) says:

    I agree that no religion should be that intolerant of others and as you rightly point out had the dressed up as Jews and driven through Israel there would probably would have been less complaints.
    Of course that illustrates exactly why they did what they did. So for me the issue here is that they didn’t actually do it as a joke, they did it to cynically stir up controversy and in turn publicity for their show.

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  5. Diziet Sma (109 comments) says:

    So what if they did? I still find the show boring. Not as boring as Islam though.

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  6. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    Top Gear – attention seeking
    Daily Mail – attention seeking
    Anjem Choudary – responding (presumably approached by the Mail), it sounds more like a wish than a demand. Christians don’t like jokes being made about Jesus or Mary, some have expressed sensitivity to any deviations from the gospel storyline in nativity take-offs.

    Muslims can get over-precious about their religion being mocked – but anti-Muslims also get over-precious about the “right to mock”. I think many non-religious people don’t appreciate how sensitive some people are to thaving heir religious views and customs being challenged and laughed at.

    A simple guideline – “mock as you would be happy to be mocked” (about something dear to you).

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  7. immigant (950 comments) says:

    If Top Gear was a show run by a country under Muslim rule, maybe all those religious crybabies had a foot to stand on, as long as England is Christian and the BBC is in England, they can do what ever they want withteh show. Top Gear owes nothing to anyone, and they are no breaking laws.

    Religeon I’s just a vehicle for culture after all.

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  8. David Farrar (1,875 comments) says:

    PG – more than over-precious. Police have just arrested a group of men who were planning to attack the building of the newspaper that published Mohammed cartoons, and machine gun to death everyone inside the building.

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  9. GPT1 (2,106 comments) says:

    Got to love Top Gear.

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  10. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    Pete, your guideline doesn’t really work because one individual’s sensitivity is not another’s.

    To take offence is ultimately a choice and often an unthinking one.

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  11. AlphaKiwi (687 comments) says:

    I find them taking offense offensive. Where’s my apology?

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  12. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    Police have just arrested a group of men….

    Yes, I saw that, totaly over the top. It’s hard to know how to deal with it. Being deliberately provocative or vindictive doesn’t do anyone any good. One off digs get blown out of all proportion. The world has got intself into a bit of a bind on this.

    An important part of living relatively stress-free is being able to laugh at yourself. The problem is sensible Muslims probably prefer to keep their heads down in public, not wanting to attract adverse reactions. Maybe a mass internet good natured saturation of digs could defuse it all – or not. Better general (all religions and non-religions) than targeted.

    Jivekitty, a part of living together in society is being aware of other people’s sensitivities. Sensible blokes are quite careful joking about the looks or weight of a partner.

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  13. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    Denis Dutton on multiculturuism:

    Multiculturalism Is a Burning Issue

    When General George Napier was governor of Sind province in India in the 1840s, he vigorously enforced the ban on suttee, the practice of throwing a Hindu widow on to the funeral pyre of her husband. A delegation of Brahmins came to him to explain that he must not prohibit the practice at the funeral of a particular maharaja, as it was an important cultural custom.

    “If it is your custom to burn a widow alive, please go on,” Napier responded. “We have a custom in our country that whoever burns a person alive shall be hanged. While you prepare the funeral pyre, my carpenters will be making the gallows to hang all of you. Let us all act according to our customs”.

    Should immigrants expect to be able to practice traditions of their native societies – Passover or Ramadan or Thanksgiving dinner? Of course. Should they expect to see their children schooled exclusively in their original language, or according to the dictates of their religion, all at taxpayer expense? Absolutely not.

    No one can predict what the ethnic face of New Zealand will look like in fifty years except that it will include more generations of immigrants. If we’re smart about it, whatever New Zealanders look or sound like, they’ll all be proud citizens who share the best values of the liberal democracies around the world. Let’s be smart.

    How can we be smarter about it?

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  14. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    If they’re sensitive about it, it’s typically either because it’s true or it’s not. If it’s true and they don’t like it, they can accept it or work to change it. If it’s false, they can disagree and explain why. I would prefer not to build my relationships on a foundation of lies. I would prefer not to build weak relationships where truth, offence and disagreement will shatter them.

    Instead of getting offended, people should learn to critically examine and if necessary, refute. Bowing to people’s unthinking taking of offence and self-censoring because of it leads to a society distinctly lacking in robustness. Instead of critical thought, discourse and debate, you’re likely to end up with large groups of people who don’t know how to respond well to new ideas or challenges to old ideas. For example, people who, instead of engaging in critical thought and discourse, self-indulgently nurture their own childish sense of offence and decide it’s a good idea to attack the building of a newspaper in which cartoons they didn’t like were published. Not a societal development I want to occur.

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  15. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    What controversy? Choudary is loon…why is anyone taking any notice of him?

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  16. Kimble (4,417 comments) says:

    “If they’re sensitive about it, it’s typically either because it’s true or it’s not. ”

    People who are [Insert Description Here] will typically either agree or disagree with that sentence.

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  17. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    People will probably either agree or disagree, yes. Maybe some will sit on the fence. Painting in broad strokes, Kimble. Which explains the qualifier, “typically”.

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  18. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    We already have “large groups of people who don’t know how to respond well to new ideas or challenges to old ideas”, most obvious in religious groups (and extreme Muslim are amongst the worst) but it also happens in politics.

    I don’t think we should bow or cower, but we need to find ways of dealing with it better. It is difficult, because it’s very hard to reason with entrenched religious (or political) ideas.

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  19. alwyn (402 comments) says:

    I always though that “The Stig” must have been a woman of the Islam faith.
    After all he always had a completely covered body and a full face covering as well.
    I just assumed, as one does, that it was only a high-tech burqa that “she” had on.
    I was of course amazed to discover that “she” was really a “he”

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  20. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    Ignore the threats and yelling. Eventually, one would hope they realise they’re not going to get anywhere. The pity is that people don’t ignore the threats and yelling. Religious discourse seems to rely more on threats while political discourse seems to rely more on yelling. Ignore it. Make it an irrelevance. Only if it is realised that such modes of operation are futile will they go away. In other words, keep calm and carry on. Don’t go out of the way to offend for its own sake, but don’t hold back even if it may be offensive.

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  21. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    I don’t really get the righteous indignation over this.

    Islam has different standards to that of Christianity possibly a remnant of the different attitudes which each set of adherents respectively holds, in general terms. In other words they’re different, not wrong.

    In many many ways this being one I think Islam needs to have a much more ‘when in Rome’ approach but I think that already happens by and large it’s just the media chose not to focus on that aspect. The vast majority of Mosque-attendees in Western nations never hit the headlines because they never do anything out of the ordinary. The only Mosque-attendees which get the publicity are the ones who don’t have the ‘when in Rome’ attitude and consequently some seem to think that’s a significant proportion of the total Muslim population. Which is kinda stoopid really but there we are. Sometimes people make calls for the ordinary Mosque-attendees to vigorously loudly and longly condemn the radicals whenever something big happens. Which is fine, except do we similarly expect our Church leaders to vigorously, loudly and longly condemn Christians who do something bad, such as invade Iraq or support Congolese dictators? Apparently not for I haven’t noticed such calls over the years.

    I think Muslims do get hung up over dumb things that don’t matter and they do have attitudes which aren’t frankly Islamic in the 21st century with respect to how they by and large officially view and treat 50% of their own population, and also how they treat Christians in their own jurisdictions. But that doesn’t make them dangerous, like we were told the commies were, not by any means. To control this problem all we have to do is bridge the gap by tapping into the moderate Muslim community leaders and use them as a bridge to communicate to their similarly moderate communities in their home countries.

    They’re not all fanatics, you know. ME people have a different set of attitudes to us and Islamic fanaticism is sometimes conflated with the normal, to them, attitudes they have picked up as nomadic desert peoples over the centuries. If you bother to make that distinction you see that they in fact are just like us, products of their environment as we are of our European environment. It’s not Islam that made them that way and it’s not Islam that keeps them that way. Understand that distinction and you’re a long way toward correctly interpreting their attitudes, the other element being of course what’s happened to them since the 50′s what with all the Western-inspired coups, counter-coups, and the odd subsequent crack-down here and there while the people who installed said leaders stood aside and let them do what they wanted.

    There’s an excellent video on the various CIA coups here. It talks about things like when the CIA assassinated Che Guevara it made an image that lives on to this day, quite the contrary to what it intended. When it installed the Shah, the Shah’s subsequent actions was actually the thing that gave vent to the Islamic revolution that followed – it wasn’t even on the horizon in Iran before the CIA did that. Etc.

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  22. bc (1,356 comments) says:

    “Personally the show sounds hilarious, and it would have been equally funny if they had dressed up as Orthodox Jews and driven through Israel. Guess there would be less complaints.”

    I wouldn’t be too sure of that, DPF. Have you seen the movie Bruno? Baron-Cohen nearly got lynched in Israel.

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  23. KevinH (1,160 comments) says:

    I have long suspected that Jeremy Clarkson has a secret fetish; cross dressing; and has been scheming to combine his latent sexual dysfunction with his car show.
    As we all know fast cars and trans sexuals in drag are not the sort of images a red blooded englishmen aspires to but to Jeremy’s credit he has successfully combined the two.
    Now there is that other unamed fetish that Jeremy is into, belly dancing, that would prove to more challenging than screaming around in a burkha.

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  24. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    However, Muslims in Britain said the show mocked their religion.

    Cap. slow meats Cap. obvious.

    Islamic activist Anjem Choudary told the Daily Mail the burqa was a “symbol of our religion and people should not make jokes about it in any way”.

    Actually, it’s a) not part of Islam, it’s part of the culture of some Islamic nations and b) it’s something you should be ashamed about, not defending.

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  25. scrubone (3,090 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t be too sure of that, DPF. Have you seen the movie Bruno? Baron-Cohen nearly got lynched in Israel.

    I’m going to take a wild stab and guess that he didn’t go to any Islamic countries just to prove that they were more tolerant and he woudn’t instead get *actually* lynched.

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  26. CHFR (220 comments) says:

    Before any of you comment it would pay to watch the episode, I did last night and it was halarious and the burka section was fully in context. Besides the Burka is not an Islamic garment so these objectors just look silly. FWIW those Syrians passing the 3 hosts were looking a bit puzzled but not at all outraged by it.

    As a Christian I found the nativity scene just as funny and it more than mocked my faith.

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  27. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Now there is that other unamed fetish that Jeremy is into, belly dancing, that would prove to more challenging than screaming around in a burkha.

    You could just cut a hole in it Keven, that’d work.

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  28. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Islamic activist Anjem Choudary told the Daily Mail the burqa was a “symbol of our religion and people should not make jokes about it in any way”.

    That’s odd, because when the burqa was banned in France under the “religious symbol” law, the mozzies tried to argue that it wasn’t one.

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  29. bc (1,356 comments) says:

    Religious nutters = intolerance, REGARDLESS of the religion.

    A lot of problems this religious stuff has caused ovet the years :)

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  30. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Religious nutters = intolerance, REGARDLESS of the religion.

    I would say: Religious nutters = intolerance, IN SPITE OF the religion…

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  31. 2boyz (255 comments) says:

    Muslims really just need to lighten up which reminds me, just from my personal observations Muslin children blow up so quickly :)

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  32. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    I don’t think the problem here is with what Top Gear have done, they were putting on a show, not my sort of thing but they have an audience for it and I can easily ignore it.

    If the media decided to make a story of it and solicit predictable responses from Muslims they knew would oblige then they are the ones stirring up a controversy that needn’t have been one.

    And if a Muslim or few promoted the controversy by approaching media with their indignation then it would have been best if they had been ignored. But we live in a world where small stories grow when promoted, especially in the silly season. I guess we just have to accept that media often don’t care about what they stir up, they are basically selfish.

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  33. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    The mainly Pakistani Zealots can just fuck off back to their Islamic roots and enjoy being blown up by rival factions of the Religion of Peace in the cradle of their culture.

    Never had any issues with any Bangladeshi Moslems ever. How very strange.

    The Pakis are just Nasty Fuckers that need to be herded and shipped back to their own fucking Paradise. Then the Yanks can turn their country to glass.

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  34. DJP6-25 (1,315 comments) says:

    Reason # 957 not to allow people from the ‘religion of peace’ to emigrate to democratic countries. The moment they have the numbers they want to impose Sharia. All told, far more trouble than they’re worth. I sure hope mass produced hydrogen powered cars are just around the corner.

    PS I hope the episode of Top Gear is on You Tube so I can see it in Korea.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  35. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    The phrase “an intelligent muslim” is fast becoming an oxymoron.
    This is the vile religion of peace at its worst, which deserves to be mocked ad infinitum.

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  36. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Islam does not allow itself to be mocked in any way.

    Look at the uproar over the Danish cartoons.

    Then Dutch film maker Theo Van Gogh was murdered after making a film called Submission about the treatment of women in Islam. If you look on the net you can see a picture of him lying in the street with a knife plunged into his neck.

    After that, South Park (who are equal opportunity offenders) were going to make fun of Mohammed in their show, but they were warned they’d end up like Van Gogh if they did. Subsequently they censored themselves.

    The posting gave details about a home Stone and Parker reportedly co-own.
    It also listed the addresses of their production office in California and the New York office of South Park’s broadcaster, Comedy Central.
    “We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show,” warned the posting, written in the name of Abu Talhah Al-Amrikee.
    “This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them,” it added.

    Then there is the sad story of Molly Norris. She was a cartoonist working for a newspaper in Seattle who, after the South Park fiasco, decided that they couldn’t kill everybody and so put together a Draw Mohammed Day. She got a fatwa issued against her and now has gone into hiding on the advice of the FBI. Molly Norris doesn’t exist anymore – she lost her job and her identity. And do you think any of the Hollywood elite jumped up to defend her? No. They’re all for free speech as long as it’s only for gays or some other group where they won’t have to put their necks on the line.

    The same silence from Hollywood when Harry Potter star Afshan Azad went into hiding because she dated a Hindu man and was threatened with death and beaten by her Muslim father and brother. Who knows if she’ll resurface.

    It’s creeping Sharia: the Islamic law and practices that no one dare criticize for fear of death.

    We need to stand up and say, NO, your laws are not allowed in our Western countries. If you want to live that way then go back to Pakistan or Iran.

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  37. Rex Widerstrom (5,330 comments) says:

    My God!! What next?! Someone will be dressing up in red frocks and mocking the Spanish Inquisition!!

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  38. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    We can only do that for our own country Fletch, it’s up to other countries to decide for themselves. There doesn’t seem to be any sign of any threat of Sharia law here and it should be easily left out of our statutes. There are far more threats of violence from elsewhere in New Zealand – but I think capital punishment should be resisted as much as Sharia, it’s another practice from more barbaric times, surely we have become more civilised as a society.

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  39. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    It’s creeping Sharia: the Islamic law and practices that no one dare criticize for fear of death.

    Are you scared of death too Fletch or not really?

    It’s just I see people criticising it all the time and not a lot of critics actually dying from it, but maybe that’s just cause I’m not looking at the right news sites.

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  40. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    reid, just jump across to jihad watch to see what is happening in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world. In France there are areas patrolled by Muslim youths where no white person, or even Police officer dare to go.

    It’s not all death threats but it’s the covert manner in which Islamists are trying to establish Sharia by stealth, and are making great strides in doing so. It’s the way CAIR (named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation Hamas terror funding case) jumps up and down and stamps it’s feet any time Islam in America is criticized at all.

    Heck, under Obama, the phrase “war on terror” is not allowed to be used, nor the term “Islamic terrorist”. The media has gotten into this as well. Just look at the next news report (like the latest in Sweden – or maybe that was the time-before-last) the next time a bomb is exploded by a Muslim terrorist, and you won’t hear the words ‘Muslim’, ‘Islamic’, etc etc. It’s just be ‘Asian’ or ‘this guy’. Even the Christmas Tree bomber wasn’t mentioned using terms to describe his religious reasons.

    Obama wouldn’t even mention that the Fort Hood massacre was committed by a Muslim (which it is obvious he was), and he ignored the 1st anniversary of the attack. Both Obama and the media are scared of offending Muslims, when it is the moderate Muslims themselves who should be standing up and condemning these attacks (instead they do nothing).

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  41. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Fletch if you set out with a view toward the Muslims being a threat then the evidence is there for one to construct it. My personal view is that it looks and smells suspiciously like the same bullshit that was sold to the American public and the West to justify the military expenditure during the Cold War. As we all now know from the world wide historical consensus on that period, it has now been proven beyond doubt the missile counts were way off, the threat was exaggerated out of all proportion to reality and other theories leading to alternative non-mainstream explanations were ignored, such as the possibility the Russians were behaving this way not through aggression but through a defensive mentality of buffer states borne from its long history of invasion (which is now the accepted perspective). One notes of course the convenient coincidence that both Communism and Islam have an expansionist doctrine which was used by the philosophy professors as ideological evidence that the aggression theory had legs.

    Those same dynamics in the Western media is exactly what I see happening today with the Muslims and because I think that I look at the same events you look at but I draw a different conclusion. If my interpretation didn’t hold water I wouldn’t stick with it but it does, when you look at the events as a pattern.

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  42. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Pete George – “I think capital punishment should be resisted as much as Sharia, it’s another practice from more barbaric times, surely we have become more civilised as a society.”

    So you think that having more murderers and child molesters alive makes an improvement? Odd concept.

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  43. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    Fletch, your claims don’t stack up – look at the news reports on the Danish arrests.

    VoA: Authorities described them as militant Islamists, some with ties to international terrorist networks.

    Economic Times: “It is our assessment that this is a militant Islamist group and they have links to international terrorist networks,”

    NY Times, BBC, The Independent, Newstalk ZB etc allmake it clear what the links are: Militants ‘planned to attack newspaper that printed images of the Prophet Mohamed’

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  44. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    ps, reid, if you think it’s a long way from home, just listen to what’s been happening in Australia – women threatened as “sluts and pigs” and sought out for rape by groups of Muslim males.

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  45. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Pete, well on the day it happened, they didn’t mention it on the news report I saw. I was watching it with my folks, and said to them, I bet it’s Muslims, but the report didn’t mention it. I had to jump onto the net to find out.

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  46. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    PIA – I think things have improved from…

    Sir Samuel Romilly, speaking to the House of Commons on capital punishment in 1810, declared that “…(there is) no country on the face of the earth in which there [have] been so many different offences according to law to be punished with death as in England.”

    Known as the “Bloody Code”, at its height the criminal law included some 220 crimes punishable by death, including:
    - “being in the company of Gypsies for one month”
    - “strong evidence of malice in a child aged 7–14 years of age”
    - “blacking the face or using a disguise whilst committing a crime”.

    Many of these offences had been introduced to protect the property of the wealthy classes that emerged during the first half of the 18th century, a notable example being the Black Act of 1723, which created 50 capital offences for various acts of theft and poaching.

    Whilst executions for murder, burglary and robbery were common, the death sentences for minor offenders were often not carried out. However, children were commonly executed for such minor crimes as stealing.

    Fletch, early reports are often very sketchy, they have to be reasonably sure of details before releasing them.

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  47. Fisiani (997 comments) says:

    When the British were in Afghanistan about a hundred years ago they had some fundamentalist attackers. After a fight they called the villagers to watch. They wrapped the dead bodies of the fundamentalists in slabs of pig. Then placed the bodies in front of a cannon then set the cannon off. Tne body and the pig fragments were everywhere and then iit was announced that such defilement meant that they could not meet Allah. Attacks in that region stopped completely.
    You have to fight fanaticism with fanaticism. You cannot use democracy reasonableness or logic.

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  48. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Fisiani, not that I’m advocating violence, but Obama just doesn’t get it. He’s trying to appease Islam, and they are just laughing at him. You have to counter strength with strength and Obama has only shown himself to be weak, not least by his bowing to the Saudi King when they met. He has to stand up and be a man and to say to Iran, ‘no, you can’t have nuclear toys to play with’ and then do something to stop it. He thinks that by being nice he can make them play nice.

    He’ll learn. Just wait until the next attack that succeeds.

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  49. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    ps, reid, if you think it’s a long way from home, just listen to what’s been happening in Australia

    Fletch as I said if you have a pre-conceived idea you’ll find incidents to fulfill the fantasy. If you look at the data: i.e. incidents overall per Australian Muslim head-count, is it very large? No.

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  50. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Pete George – weak attempt at misdirect. You have not addressed the question – you think society is somehow ennobled by murderers and child molesters being alive? As you know perfectly well, no-one is suggesting reitroducing the death penalty for “- “being in the company of Gypsies for one month”, you know this is irrelevant, and to bring it up is essentially to admit you don’t have an argument.

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  51. Grizz (542 comments) says:

    Muslims can bleat on about harmless stunts that mock their religion all they want. However, when someone truely insults the core of their religion they are strangely silient. I have always been curious as to why the same Islamic leaders said nothing while apparent muslims beheaded otherwise innocent people in the name of Islam an slap it all over the internet. If I was Muslim such acts would truely insult me. So yes, Islam has to learn to take it because they give a lot more.

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  52. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    He’ll learn. Just wait until the next attack that succeeds.

    Fletch, with respect, do you seriously think Obama’s Muslim stance isn’t designed? As I’ve said before, one of the extremely interesting but rarely asked questions in this whole dynamic which we’re in the middle of, is why are all the Western politicians allowing this to happen especially in Europe? Why are they acting against the best interests of their own constituents? The whole of Europe is doing it and has been for several decades and yet no-one asks that question.

    Why is that, Fletch?

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  53. Dazzaman (1,132 comments) says:

    Don’t those blokes know islam, like fagginess, is sacrosanct! How dare they….send them a memo Aunty Beeb!!

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  54. granny.morris (7 comments) says:

    What next – The Stig in a Manger?

    Oh yes, I forgot, that’s exactly how the show ended.

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  55. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    You’re trying to misdirect what I said PIA. Of course I don’t want murderers and child abusers, but just killing everyone you don’t like is not a civil response.

    What I originally said was “it’s another practice from more barbaric times” and that’s what I was illustrating. There are people on Kiwiblog that suggest the death penalty for all sorts of crimes, or rather people they don’t like. I think we have become more civilised – there are down sides, but generally I think on average we’re far better off now.

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  56. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    You have to fight fanaticism with fanaticism. You cannot use democracy reasonableness or logic.

    Fisiani, should we make an example as you have illustrated of those who keep promoting armed uprisings and assassinations in New Zealand? Check examples out here virtually every day.

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  57. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Why is that, Fletch?

    Political Correctness. AT least on Obama’s part, there is feeling that whatever grievances Muslims have that it’s all the fault of the West and of America, so because of guilt he feels he has to go around apologizing for his own country; however, their jihad attacks are really nothing to do with the West has done. It has always been their will to subjugate.

    But really, it is the Liberal way to hate your own country and stand up for other ideologies that the liberals really don’t understand. They’ll be the first ones up against the wall, just like Khomeini’s liberal supporters when he overthrew the Shah in 1979.

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  58. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Political correctness and this idea of multiculturalism….

    I think that some believe Islam is just another religion, or the so-called Religion Of Peace™
    They try and compare to Christianity etc. They don’t realize it’s more of a political ideology with more akin to Communism than Judaism.

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  59. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Political Correctness.

    Fletch no way. You don’t get Presidential policy made by a warm feeling in the President’s tummy. That doesn’t happen in real life.

    But really, it is the Liberal way to hate your own country and stand up for other ideologies that the liberals really don’t understand.

    From many past and current performances the world over you could be forgiven for thinking this is also the conservative way. For some inexplicable reason ideology seems not to matter, when it comes to this. Isn’t that peculiar?

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  60. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    it is the Liberal way to hate your own country

    That’s a bizarre claim to make. Based on what? All liberals?

    Generalisations like that are like saying all Catholics are pedophiles.

    There seems to be a few cranky conservatives who keep lamenting our politicians and country on here but I wouldn’t condemn all conservatives based on a few bitch and moaners.

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  61. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Fletch
    Marine le Pen is on the rise in France. It is likely that she will rival Sarkosy. Others have predicted civil war in France between Muslim and non muslim.
    The muslims have some weird notions..there is somethiong about the twelve days of Christmas which appeals to them..all the terrorists arrested recently have been in groups of twelve. Still several days to go..It will be a miracle if there is no attack in Europe or the Uk..maybe Greece..Did you know as part of the Greek bail out the Greeks are getting two mega mosques paid for by the Europeans?

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  62. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Pete, a fuller explanation can be found by D.L Adams HERE which helps to explain why progressives and their ilk embrace Islam.

    The rejection of morality in politics by the American Left is nothing less than an ongoing denial of the religious origins of our country and our national character. Many on the Progressive Left have embraced a post-modernist worldview.

    Post-modernism posits a radical equivalence that views all religions and all cultures as equal. This concept of radical equivalence is also the foundation of multiculturalism. The deconstruction then of the Founders’ faith, its importance in the development of the country and of its continued value is necessary to support post-modernism and multiculturalism’s worldview and utopian goals.

    A central problem to the advancement of the post-modernist view is the origin of American law and morality in Judeo-Christian religion, and our understanding of the central dichotomies around which such laws are built: good/evil, right/wrong, just/unjust, etc. The rejection of the morality of the Founders and the support today for Islam (our Founders did not at all support it ) among American leftists is illustrative.

    Islam does not view these essential dichotomies upon which our laws are based in the same way that Americans do. Regardless, the Left views Islam as a fellow-traveler in the deconstruction of American institutions and has therefore allied itself with Islam and Islamists.

    The same approach was taken by Iranian leftists prior to the 1979 Islamist Revolution. After the Shah was overthrown leftists there unpleasantly discovered that their views were not at all compatible with totalitarian Islam.

    It is difficult to comprehend the cooperative relationship between far left (American Progressives) and extremist totalitarian forces (Islamists) especially when history shows that such relationships can only be temporary. Alliances of convenience between political opposites are usually short-lived and end …poorly. The Iranian leftists learned this lesson. American Progressives seem determined to repeat this costly mistake.

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  63. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    joana, not sure, perhaps because they are waiting for the Twelfth Imam? I did a post about him HERE. He is the Islamic messiah that some Muslims believe will return with Jesus as his deputy and destroy all the Jews and Christians. Ahmadinejad himself is a “twelver”. I think that makes him particularly dangerous, because he seeks to hasten the return of the Mahdi by creating strife with nuclear weapons.

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  64. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    That doesn’t explain it at all. Now you are saying Progressives, do you put them in the same group as Liberals? A lot of posters here get called Liberal and Progressive, do you think most who post on Kiwiblog hate New Zealand and embrace Islam?

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  65. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Excerpts of a speech by Geert Wilders on progressives and Islam.

    Politicians from almost all establishment parties today are facilitating Islamization. They are cheering for every new Islamic school, Islamic bank, Islamic court. They regard Islam as being equal to our own culture. Islam or freedom? It does not really matter to them. But it does matter to us. The entire establishment elite — universities, churches, trade unions, the media, politicians — are putting our hard-earned liberties at risk. They talk about equality, but amazingly fail to see how in Islam women have fewer rights than men and infidels have fewer rights than adherents of Islam.

    One of the things we are no longer allowed to say is that our culture is superior to certain other cultures. This is seen as a discriminatory statement — a statement of hatred even. We are indoctrinated on a daily basis, in the schools and through the media, with the message that all cultures are equal and that if one culture is worse than all the rest, it is our own. We are inundated with feelings of guilt and shame about our own identity and what we stand for. We are exhorted to respect everyone and everything, except ourselves. That is the message of the Left and the politically correct ruling establishment. They want us to feel so ashamed about our own identity that we refuse to fight for it.

    The detrimental obsession of our cultural and political elites with Western guilt reinforces the view which Islam has of us. The Koran says that non-Muslims are kuffar (the plural of kafir), which literally means “rejecters” or “ingrates.” Hence, infidels are “guilty.” Islam teaches that in our natural state we have all been born as believers. Islam teaches that if we are not believers today this is by our own or by our forefathers’ fault. Subsequently, we are always kafir — guilty — because either we or our fathers are apostates. And, hence, according to some, we deserve subjugation.

    Our contemporary leftist intellectuals are blind to the dangers of Islam.

    Former Soviet dissident Vladimir Bukovsky argues that after the fall of communism, the West failed to expose those who had collaborated with the Communists, by advocating policies of détente, improved relations, relaxation of international tension, peaceful coexistence. He points out that the Cold War was “a war we never won. We never even fought it. … Most of the time the West engaged in a policy of appeasement toward the Soviet bloc — and appeasers don’t win wars.”

    Islam is the Communism of today. But, because of our failure to come clean with Communism, we are unable to deal with it, trapped as we are in the old Communist habit of deceit and double-speak that used to haunt the countries in the East and that now haunts all of us. Because of this failure, the same leftist people who turned a blind eye to Communism then, turn a blind eye to Islam today. They are using exactly the same arguments in favor of détente, improved relations, and appeasement as before. They argue that our enemy is as peace-loving as we are, that if we meet him halfway he will do the same, that he only asks respect and that if we respect him he will respect us. We even hear a repetition of the old moral equivalence mantra. They used to say that Western “imperialism” was as bad as Soviet imperialism; they are now saying that Western “imperialism” is as bad as Islamic terrorism.

    We must realize that Islam expands in two ways. Since it is not a religion, conversion is only a marginal phenomenon. Historically, Islam expanded either by military conquest or by using the weapon of hijra, immigration. Muhammad conquered Medina through immigration. Hijra is also what we are experiencing today. The Islamization of Europe continues all the time. But the West has no strategy for dealing with the Islamic ideology, because our elites say that we must adapt to them rather than the other way round.

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  66. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Pete, to me, progressives and liberals are the same thing…

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  67. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Fletch
    I saw something recently..an ex rev guard from Iran and according to him nuclear destruction is a definete part of their beliefs. Interesting on wikileaks how the surrounding countries wanted something done about Iran. Interesting too how old empires try to reassert themselves..Persia , Germany and eventually Japan.

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  68. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    So you are saying that most posters here hate New Zealand and embrace Islam? That’s ridiculous. By implication it’s like saying you hate most New Zealanders.

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  69. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Pete, you’ve kind of lost me. I’m really not sure where your coming from. Are you saying that everyone who posts on here is a classic Progressive? A Liberal? What?

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  70. reid (16,111 comments) says:

    which helps to explain why progressives and their ilk embrace Islam.

    Fletch, why in your opinion does someone who’s not liberal or progressive “embrace Islam” (whatever that means)?

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  71. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    Ok, then clarify. You tell me what proportion of posters here qualify for your Progressive/Liberal label. And how many people in New Zealand.

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  72. Fletch (6,154 comments) says:

    Pete, how do I know? I don’t keep a tally. What’s your tally?
    I would think that those who support Palestine against Israel are deserving of the label?

    Why is important for you to keep a count? I am only trying to explain the rationale, not to label anyone.

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  73. Pete George (23,359 comments) says:

    I thought that when you say all Liberals/Progressives hate their country and embrace Islam (your claims) that it was sort of important to know how many in NZ fitted into your categories. If you think there’s only a few it may not be so bad, but if you agree with Redbaiter’s claims that virtually everyone but him (and you) in the country is Progressive then it’s quite serious.

    When you make such definitive claims you surely must have an idea approximately how many people you are talking about. otherwise it seems like you are making meaningless sweeping generalisations.

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  74. dad4justice (7,989 comments) says:

    Haha good one lads. Muslim dogs smell like frogs. Bring on the Jihard you twits.

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  75. Chuck Bird (4,774 comments) says:

    “It’s hard to know how to deal with it.”

    Shot them and bury them with a pig.

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  76. RobbieBlack (226 comments) says:

    Muslims will kll people for making mocking cartoons of their religion.

    Those guys better watch out.

    By the way I just saw a Mazarati for 40,000 Euros.

    Second hand but quite surprised.

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  77. JiveKitty (869 comments) says:

    Fletch, I saw your comment about the South Park creators. I thought the network censored them rather than they self-censored?

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  78. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,820 comments) says:

    I watched the show when broadcast here in the UK.

    Worth a watch. Plenty of laughs to be had.

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  79. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    allegedly the show can be downloaded from kickass torrents

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  80. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    … to me, progressives and liberals are the same thing…
    Yes, whatever the source, a pile of excrement, a turd, is indistinguishable from another.

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  81. immigant (950 comments) says:

    The only way to sort this out is another Crusade, stomp the Middle East into the ground and put the fear of white men back into the towel heads.

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  82. radar (319 comments) says:

    “Personally the show sounds hilarious, and it would have been equally funny if they had dressed up as Orthodox Jews and driven through Israel. Guess there would be less complaints.”

    I wouldn’t be so sure of that, DPF. Sacha Baron Cohen had to run for his life after almost being attacked by Orthodox Jews in Israel during the filming of Bruno. It’s in the film so not hard to check out.

    And Morgan Spurlock was assaulted by an Orthodox Jew and screamed at by others after trying to ask them a question in Israel during the filming of Where in the World is Osama bin Laden.

    This narrative that Muslims are violent and Jews are as meek as church mice is baloney.

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  83. RobbieBlack (226 comments) says:

    Check this documentary about Muslims:

    “Team America.”

    Quite good.

    I hear copies of the DVD are selling well on the black market in North Korea at the moment.

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