The undiplomatic Downer

December 13th, 2010 at 5:09 am by David Farrar

Former Australian Foreign Minister wasn’t always the most diplomatic of people, in private. This is seen in one cable where he is discussing North Korea with the Americans:

Downer and Madden compared their personal experiences in Pyongyang, with Downer calling the DPRK capital “”pathetic”" with its darkened streets, cracked pavements and unmowed grass. LaPorte concurred that the DPRK infrastructure, including the power grid and rail lines, was decrepit. In closing, Downer remarked, “”let the whole place go to s–t, that’s the best thing that could happen.”" Speaking off the top of his head, he added that aid should not be given that would prop up the infrastructure. If U.S. officials wanted to hear the “”bleeding hearts”" view of “”peace and love”" with respect to North Korea, Downer joked, they only had to visit his colleagues in New Zealand.

Heh. This was in 2005.

Tags: Alexander Downer, North Korea, Wikileaks

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22 Responses to “The undiplomatic Downer”

Viking2 (9,462) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 6:41 am
So, are you suggesting that anything has changed since then?
I fear not.
Same people giving the same advice. Fiji anyone?
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Dave Mann (987) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 7:14 am
Downer wasn’t being ‘undiplomatic’. Diplomacy is the art of lying, telling half truths and/or the use of the carrot-and-stick in order to advance one’s position. This guy wasn’t doing this… he was just being honest in a private conversation.
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OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,672) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 7:56 am
Alexander Downer certainly had New Zealand’s number pegged.

So how exactly are we going to convince Australia to let New Zealand join the Federation?
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Murray (8,832) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 8:15 am
What was undiplomatic? He was being honest.
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ben (2,366) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 8:31 am
Right. On. The. Money.

Not much has changed since, come to think of it, judging by % of GDP taken by government.
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Manolo (9,886) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 8:40 am
The sad thing is Downer got it right: “bleeding hearts” under comrade Clark’s regime and the same thing with Labour-lite’s Key.
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Pete George (17,596) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 8:48 am
“What was undiplomatic? He was being honest.”

That is the point, the surface layer of international diplomacy is not known for it’s directness and honesty.

The dig at NZ was unwarranted, there seems to be virtually no sympathy for North Korea here.
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GPT1 (1,950) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 9:34 am
Downer continues to go up in my estimation.
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Fletch (4,305) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 10:37 am
You don’t have to be diplomatic in private – that’s just the thing. How would you like your private conversations or emails made public? I’m sure we all say things in private to family or friends about our boss or other people that we don’t want them to know. The only major thing these wikileaks releases are doing is breaking down the relationships and trusts between nations.

In that regard Asange has done great damage in releasing them. Wikileaks objective has lost the plot. It was supposed to be about standing up for people who couldn’t speak for themselves but now it should be relegated to that of more of a gossip mag, ala the Woman’s Weekly – no, more like the National Enquirer.
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Bryla (263) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 11:03 am
Eerrr Fletch, it wasn’t a private conversation. It was like, a discussion between politicians who lie to us, but proffer offensive views to each other about the people they lie to. Anyway brother, peace, love and brown rice to the mental pygmies of the east islands.

p.s. We’ll let you join a real country if you just keep bending over for Uncle sam, like your current leaders are doing. Easy really, but don’t forget the lubricant.
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Fletch (4,305) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Bryla, you’ve never had an offensive view about something your boss has done that you’ve shared with a co-worker, but been nice to his/her (boss’s) face? or perhaps your mother-in-law or other family member? I’m sure you have; or maybe you’re super human.

And you can bitch and moan about the US all you like, but it’s a fact that whenever there is some kind of disaster, they are invariably the first to offer aid and send soldiers and supplies.

Perhaps they should just say “**** you” and look after themselves.
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backster (1,777) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 11:34 am
If U.S. officials wanted to hear the “”bleeding hearts”” view of “”peace and love”” with respect to North Korea, Downer joked, they only had to visit his colleagues in New Zealand.

Why would they think he was joking?
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Bryla (263) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Yes Fletch, they are definitely the first to send soldiers, and their soldiers are the first to start shooting. I agree with you. They should stay away and look after themselves. definitely.
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Dazzaman (1,008) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Sadly, he’s bloody well right.

The dig at NZ was unwarranted, there seems to be virtually no sympathy for North Korea here.

Sure, but to do what Downer advocates would have Locke, Minto & co. jumping up and down about….the children or whatever. You know it.

Mind you, the PM would be “all things to all men” by agreeing with the sandal-wearers while sending a strongly worded message about not tolerating the situation in Pyongyang…or whatever!

Mr Inaction indeed.
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Fletch (4,305) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Bryla, I was talking about disaster aid and the like. As for the US being the first to send soldiers, and the first to start shooting, you know damn well that that isn’t the case. Just look at WWII – the US stayed out of it up until Pearl Harbour.
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Fletch (4,305) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Meanwhile, the Oxford Analytica Global Strategy Analysis site says of wikileaks –

WikiLeaks’ assertion that absolute transparency will make citizens safer and governments more accountable is incorrect; its interventions will increase official secrecy and threaten security. Damaging as WikiLeaks is to Obama’s diplomatic strategy and US bilateral relations, its most negative impact will be on global anti-terror efforts and diplomacy aimed at reducing friction between major powers (such as Washington and Beijing).

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange insists that his organisation’s release of tens of thousands of US military intelligence reports and diplomatic cables “had done tremendous good” and led to “the prevention of harm”. Yet these assertions betray a very poor understanding of why democratic governments keep secrets, and of the effect of the mass release of such data.

Though serious abuses of classification systems sometimes occur, Western governments primarily restrict the flow of information not in order to deceive their own populations for political purposes, but to facilitate the ordinary processes of diplomacy and intelligence gathering, and to protect themselves from hostile powers.

Governments keep some information secret for a number of reasons, including:

Diplomacy. Even highly transparent, democratically accountable governments must maintain relations (generally for trade and security reasons) with less accountable regimes. Since many of these governments maintain policies that are more favourable to Western interests than their populations support, preserving confidentiality is the only way to facilitate effective bilateral communication. In more open societies, leading politicians may be reluctant to engage on issues of longer-term strategic importance, without assurance that such talks will remain private.

Intelligence. Although intelligence gathering about other states’ policies has an unsavoury public reputation, it abets diplomatic exchanges in preserving peace. This is because the most valuable intelligence — discerning a potential adversary’s true intentions or capabilities — helps to avoid misunderstandings, which can lead to arms races or wars.

The disclosure of State Department cables will almost certainly make non-US officials involved — and intelligence sources more generally — less inclined to share information with the United States, with possible consequences for global security. As the principal military power in the world, US misperceptions of potential enemy intentions and capabilities can have serious consequences.

In truth, I don’t think Asange knows what the hell he’s done. The whole wikileaks is misguided now and will have the opposite effect now of there being even less information shared.
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Jeremy Harris (323) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Sadly the only thing we can do is completely isolate the DPRK till it collapses… The South Koreans will have it fixed with a higher living standard than NZ in 20 years…

The attitude displayed is why Aussie has 38% higher wages than us, they better seem to recognise that there are people in the world willing to harm democracy and freedom if it isn’t guarded against…
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scrubone (2,304) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Yes Fletch, they are definitely the first to send soldiers, and their soldiers are the first to start shooting.

Except Kuwait (i.e. Iraq), 9/11 (WOT), Afghanistan…
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Stuart Mackey (337) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Fletch (1,664) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 10:37 am
You don’t have to be diplomatic in private – that’s just the thing. How would you like your private conversations or emails made public? I’m sure we all say things in private to family or friends about our boss or other people that we don’t want them to know. The only major thing these wikileaks releases are doing is breaking down the relationships and trusts between nations.

In that regard Asange has done great damage in releasing them.
**********************************

Trouble with that argument is that there is nothing in these leaks that I didnt already know from public sources and talking to people.
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Hurf Durf (2,860) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Bryan is a dolt who still hasn’t answered by question about why mutual cooperation with a superpower is “selling out” but his ilk getting logistical support from Cuba or Libya or Venezuela to do their dirty work is “solidarity”
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Bryla (263) Says:
December 13th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Durf, old chortler, when any government calling itself a democracy makes intelligence arrangements with a foreign power, and feels obliged to keep those arrangements secret from their own people – well, I think that’s a bit dodgy. I sat through the trial in Wellington of the Waihopai ploughshares, and i listened to the prosecutor and judge both say that the defendents couldn’t really PROVE what that intelligence station did, because the government kept it all secret. Not from the Chinese, the Iranians, or Al Quaida, but from you and your fellow citizens. Wake up son.

As for my ilk, we’ve never accepted outside aid. He lives in a stable and eats free-range organic forage that keeps his coat glossy and his bowells regular. I think you must be jealous.
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Hurf Durf (2,860) Says:
December 14th, 2010 at 12:55 am
You still haven’t answered the question. I assume it’s because you can’t. Oh well.
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