2011 Christchurch Earthquake Day IV
February 25th, 2011 at 9:07 am by David Farrar1553: This podcast interview of an ambulance driver is gripping.
1551: Amazing photos at the Boston Globe.
1459: The Christchurch recovery Map website http://eq.org.nz/ is a great resource where people can report and find out what is broken and what is open in their neighbourhoods. They’ve used info from tweets and elsewhere – a great use of social media to make a difference. One can also contact the Student Volunteer Army at http://eq.org.nz/volunteer-army/ or on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/StudentVolunteerArmy.
1456: Christchurch people need your old phones. If you have a phone that works without a power supply, then please let Telecom know and they can get it to a family in need in Christchurch. Website is – http://www.telecom.co.nz/earthquakephones.
1448: Lowlives have been named. The two men arrested for stealing emergency power generators are 23-year-old Owen Anthony Jackson, a fisherman and Jed Wilson-Calver, 22, unemployed. It is reported “The two skin-headed men waved offensive hand gestures at photographers and court staff and media present in a makeshift courtroom at the Christchurch Police Station”.
Mr Wilson-Calver is the same Jed who in 2006 had $20,000 of fines wiped in exchange for 180 hours community service. The Judge said “he accepted Wilson-Calver was a hard-worker who had the potential to go a long way in life.” Guess he got that one wrong. He also in 2008 was found guilty of ramming his car into another car deliberately, and got eight months jail.
1049: The Government has just announced the 8 March 2011 census has been cancelled due to the earthquake. No date has been set for a replacement one, if there will be one.
The growing death toll is distressing, as is the realisation that major parts of Christchurch will probably have to be destroyed before they can be rebuilt. This is not going to just be a case of repairing some damaged buildings.
On the positive side, great to see the student volunteer army back in action.
Related posts:
- 2011 Christchurch Earthquake Day VIII
- Christchurch Earthquake 2011 Day II
- 2011 Christchurch Earthquake Day VII
- 2011 Christchurch Earthquake Day IX
February 25th, 2011 at 9:17 am
I watched a Youtube video of the fault line from an aerial view of the September quake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npqx3WmNkv4
Quite amazing to actually see what the Earth is doing.
Condolences and God Bless.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 9:30 am
I see the scammers, thieves and hoaxsters are out of the woodwork.
Theres a reason this type are traditionalyl hung at the site of their crime.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 9:49 am
I have heard reports of businesses charging greatly inflated prices. $3 a litre for petrol and $7.5 for 2 litres of mike are examples.
Do others view this as reprehensible?
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 9:52 am
Lets not forget the lesson Napier taught us. Its CBD was destroyed in the Quake of 1931. (Incidentally they had an aftershock 6 months later that was force 7.1) Napier rebuilt in an Art Deco style which has become a tourist attraction now. The Miami of the south so to speak. Christchurch has the oportunity to rebuild in an architecture style of today which could become a tourist attraction in the years to come. Just a thought.
Or alternatively, the opportunity exists to build structures that are not only aesthetically appealing, but have a far more practical use than many of the buildings that were destroyed.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 9:56 am
@Chuck Bird, it depends on the prices they are paying I guess.
The profit margin.
Yes, if they are raising their profit margins at this time, it is reprehensible.
I remember in Beijing, when the SARS hit, prices of vitamin C doubled, nearly trebled.
I hope Kiwis are better than that.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:00 am
@Grizz, yes Napier is a positive example for the Christchurch people that the city can have a future.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:03 am
As DPF says very distressing. I don’t know if its because I have a young son or not, but I was very saddened to learn of the two young babies that have been named amongst the dead. Thoughts and prayers are very much with Christchurch at the moment.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:12 am
There’s a harrowing account of an ambulance officer’s experiences dealing with the immediate aftermath on Stuff:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-earthquake/4703447/Ambulance-officer-tells-of-quake-horror
Just awful…
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:14 am
Good point Grizz, they were just saying earlier on TV One that the Art Gallery is a PRIME example of a STRONG building, it has glass galore (I was impressed when I went there back in 04) but was built to withstand extreme quakes, and is a good symbol of strength (used as Civil Defence HQ too)…
Down the track when it is appropriate time to look to the future there will be opportunity there for ChCh to rebuild anew in many ways. Am sure kiwi ingenuity will find ways to preserve character (I hear that the Arts Centre, Museum etc came through ok but engineers will have to assess them of course) in a world class way…
Chuck Bird, yeah I have heard about ques down there, my Mother just happened to be down there (was in Northlands Mall in Papanui when quake hit, fortunately she and all my relatives are OK) and she is out at Rangiora now but were massive ques up to yesterday, am pleased Parker etc were on TV earlier explaining that there is plenty of fuel and that service stations, logisistics and bigger picture stuff are coming back on line…
Cheers…
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:23 am
@Grizz. One must bear in mind why Napier was rebuilt in an Art Deco style. It had nothing to do with planning to become a tourist mecca.
Vote:The main reasons, as far as I am aware, were.
Their were no projections overhanging the street. Nothing to fall on anyone.
They were built in reinforced concrete which was much more stable that brick or masonry.
It was a very cheap means of construction. It was far cheaper to rebuild in this style than any of the old types.
No doubt an architect could confirm, or rebut, this.
The fact that it could become a tourist attraction wasn’t recognised until the 1980s. It certainly wasn’t the intention at the time.
Incidentally I think the only reason rebuilding took place so fast was that their was no RMA and no Historic Places Trust.
Something like the, apparently wrecked, Christchurch Cathedral would simply be bowled and the rubbish used for reclamation.
February 25th, 2011 at 10:27 am
In my opinion the Cathedral should be saved at all costs.
It is the heart of the city.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:30 am
Just as long as we don’t end up with a toytown like Te Papa.
After all, what exactly is modern architecture?
Remember some of those loopy ideas for Auckland? (and BTW did anyone else hear Len’s addled effort to sound like a statesman with his comment about Christchurch? His heart might be in the right place but don’t know about his brain.)
Would love to see some great ideas based on sustainable use of energy etc. Perhaps an international competition to keep our spirits up and all of us arguing like mad.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:31 am
Chuck Bird: Not true as far as I have seen. In fact the complete opposite, alot of altrusic dairy/shop owners are giving away milk, offering credit or selling it as cheap as $5 for 4 litres. In regards to petrol, most pumps have run out and have been selling at the standard $2.02 per litre.
However it unfortunately would not surprise me if one or two dickheads were taking advantage of peoples desperation.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:38 am
I don’t think that raising prices in a time of shortage is bad. In fact it’s positively good. It ensures that limited supplies go to those who need it. For instance, people are less likely to hoard if prices are high – they will just buy what they need, thus ensuring that more people get supplies. Also it encourages people from out-of-town to spend money to make new supplies available at a cost higher than normal (eg by flying it in). The market has shown again and again that if you restrict prices then you will get shortages. In places with so-called anti-price gouging laws, the result is shortages and lack of supplies.
Some links explaining it better than I can http://rexcurry.net/price-gouging-auburn.html
Vote:and
http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2008/09/in-praise-of-pr.html
February 25th, 2011 at 10:44 am
It does not ensure it goes to those who need it most, it ensures it goes to those who have the most money.
Those unable to pay go hungry and get really pissed off. You’re assumign need equates to an ability to pay inflated prices.
Not sure you thought that one through.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:45 am
Maurice Williamson has announced that the Census 2011 has been cancelled due to the earthquake.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 10:59 am
Now consideration is moving toward how we are going to pay for the repairs. Key has talked about a special tax, the lefty pricks are leaping on this and suggesting it is because he was wrong to cut taxes in the first place, I guess the left do this because they are utter wankers.
Anyway, on the radio this morning I heard a fantastic suggestion, the government does not need to raise taxes at this time, what they should do immediately is divert every cent from the bullshit Green/Emissions trading tax on fuel to the Christchurch relief fund.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:03 am
So people can’t pay $7.50 for milk or $3 for petrol? But can afford $4.50 and $1.90? You’re joking surely.
It’s a knee-jerk , gut reaction to be against “gouging”, whereas to be in favour of it requires thought and a basic knowledge of economics.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:04 am
I think this earthquake along with the leaky homes situation has shown that a regulated building industry with strong building codes is worth it. We can’t fuck around with people’s basic safety in their homes and work places.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:06 am
I was in the CBD when the quake struck. I’ve never experienced anything like it in my life. The TV images cannot possibly convey the scale and amount of damage. In the CBD I think much of it will have to be levelled because in my opinion any building that cannot stand another big shake will have to be demolished no matter what that building is. I’ll use one street in the CBD as an example which is Manchester Street. Many of the buildings on the street will have to be demolished. There are also persistent rumours of at least three large Christchurch buildings in addition to the Hotel Grand Chancellor Hotel that are in a bad way.
Now to how this disaster is being handled by the authorities. They’re doing an excellent job in trying circumstances. The fire, medical, police and USAR guys are all doing a fantastic job. I think Bob Parker is doing fine though I wish he would stop ranting and lecturing us about boiling water. We’re not morons and don’t need reminding ten times a bloody day. There also needs to be better control of the quality of information being released. There has been far too much confusing and inaccurate information being thrown at us.
The future is what I’m most interested in. The CBD is clearly going to out of action for a very long time. The tourism industry is for the meantime paralyzed. Many businesses in the CBD will simply not be able to continue and will go under. There will have to be a decentralization. How the hell this is done I don’t know.
Finally thanks to everyone for their support of all of us down here. It’s been a real morale boost to know that all other Kiwi’s are with us. Same for others worldwide especially the Aussies who have so many people here helping. On a personal note someone I know was killed on Tuesday, he was someone I’d known for many years.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:12 am
I am, we all New Zealanders are, with you Lindsay and fellow Cantabrians; and wishing you all the best for the coming tough days ahead.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:17 am
You’re being a dick beatox.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:23 am
I grew up in Darwin after Cyclone Tracy destroyed it.
There was, initially, a desire to rebuild the place just the way it was before the cyclone.
After a lot of political angst, rebuilding turned into building from scratch, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the realisation that previous building codes had not been sufficient. Secondly, which I think is important, a desire to move forward.
A particular case in point is the appropriately named Christ Church Cathedral. The historical building was completely destroyed and a new structure, in the then contemporary style, was build on the same site, with a small part of the original building that survived incorporated into the design.
While we need memorials to remember those who we have lost, we also have to move on. I hope a new, proud, but above all modern Christchurch is the result. If it is safe to do so, I would leave the destroyed tower of the cathedral in place, and build a new, modern, church next to it.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:27 am
I agree with Big Bruv. It astounds me that the Govt is contemplating taxing the working classes even more in response to this disaster when there is so much money wasted by them on a weekly basis that could be diverted into relief….
[DPF: An idiot journalists asks the PM a question about a levy, and the PM sensibly doesn't make shit up on the spot and refuses to rule it out - and suddenly this becomes a levy is being contemplated. It's stupid to even consider the issue of a levy until the costs are known. Personally I think a levy is a daft idea as it will just dampen economic growth which is already battered]
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:28 am
Can some engineer out there answer these questions for me?
When all the silt comes out of the ground during liquefaction, what happens to the void underground where it used to be?
Can this silt be used in any way similar to what the Port of Brisbane has done with the dredgings from the Brisbane River and used in their port reclamation program? http://www.coffey.com/our-projects/port-of-brisbane-land-reclamation
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:29 am
George Bolwing, although I am not religious, I would gladly donate to a new cathedral if one was built around the old one – like the Church of the Nativity.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:30 am
Good to see rapid visible appropriate action.
A pity they won’t be able to see a few million more appropriate offensive hand gestures. Disgusting cretins.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:34 am
Just watched a Bob Parker interview.
Find those idiots who have that website and lynch them.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:39 am
And now for some good news, remember the names of these low life, never let them forget that they are vermin, society should NEVER forgive them.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10708665
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Beautox
You are being a dick and actually showing a lack of economic knowledge. Price signals are clearly the best way to allocate scarce resources in normally functioning markets. In a disaster scenario the most rational response is actually rationing. Normal prices but limit the amount anyone can purchase.
And any small business that cares about their future should provide credit to anyone requiring it for basic essentials. I would easily assume that 99.9% of people that got to a dairy and obtained a bottle of milk on credit will repay that down the track. And the goodwill would last forever.
I like Gerry’s “name and shame” approach – anyone named will never be able to operate in their locale again. Much like the Sun newspaper and Liverpool.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:45 am
Apparently the looney Greens calling for a tax on middle NZ to rebuild.
The money will have to come from somewhere. Start with the overseas aid budget. Bring it home. We can’t give money to Vietnam etc when they have military dictators etc. Scrap it for the foreseeable future.
Stop taking refugees. They cost us too much. Let their own countries or brother Muslims look after them .
Stop all this global warming ,ETS bullshit. That’s not real. Earthquakes are. All positions in central and local govt relating to this scam be scrapped . Start thinking tectonics. That’s the real danger to NZ.
Treaty of Waitangi settlements and offices/positions to be scrapped. That is a political creation for imagined and long past grievances. NZers have real and present problems that need fixing.
You canot rebuild the Christchurch Cathedral at “any cost”. It can be rebuilt but we must be realistic and sensible. Any thing rebuilt must be able to withstand ” the big one”.
Remember folks the Alpine Fault is the big one and has not sprung for some 300 years and is overdue. So plan and prepare. When that one goes it will be really bad.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 11:54 am
The Government will have to come up with a plan which involves all New Zealanders to pay for the rebuilding of Christchurch. This emissions trading scheme money, as BB suggests, would be a good start. Even though it should be cancelled immediately. A levy or tax or something will have to be done.
Vote:But first we will have to over come the psychological shock, as I think people will look for a leader or leaders to get us through this tragedy. My sympathy to the people of Christchurch.
February 25th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
We already pay, through the ECQ levy on our insurance. I’m not in favour of an extra tax. There is an enormous moral hazard if we undermine the concept of insurance by covering people who are not insured or under-insured.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
I realize that supporting so-called “price gouging” is going to get me called names (that’s called ad-hominem, an attack against a person usually when a rational argument cannot be made).
That’s why it has been dubbed with such an emotive name “gouging”.
Rationing produces huge lines that are a waste of people’s time. And in times such as this, time can be in short supply.At times like this, people have MUCH more important things to do than wait in line for petrol, water, milk, food, etc.
But more importantly, rationing does nothing to increase supply. Remember also that another thing that allowing higher prices does : it increases the supply. People will load up vans with water, milk and other things in short supply, and drive down to places where they are needed. Not every one charging a higher price is making a huge profit.
I’m not saying that businesses can’t sell at their normal prices. But of course they will sell out quickly (in fact in this scenario it will be the rich who get the goods, being able to spend to hoard).
When a disaster happens, bad things happen. The question is what is worse : having to pay more for petrol/water/milk/bread/etc, or not being able to get any, or spending half a day chasing around locating the essentials of life when you have more important things you can be doing.
Call me all the names you like. You are just showing yourself up and I don’t care. But I am very serious about this. In all the places where politicians have got on their moral high horses and implemented anti-gouging measures, the result has always been shortages.
http://www.strike-the-root.com/content/anti-gouging-idiocy
Vote:http://www.pricingforprofit.com/pricing-strategy-blog/what-s-responsible-for-gas-shortage-in-atlanta.htm
February 25th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
I see the No Right Turn idiots are caling the Govts action in cancelling the census unlawful….Wankers
[DPF: He's also unaware that GNS have said this quake is an aftershock of the September quake]
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Photos from the Boston Globes Big Picture.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:21 pm
malcolm
There is no need for an extra tax, the ETS tax is perfect in that respect, all the Government needs to do is divert the money taken from us under false pretences and give it to the Christchurch relief fund.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
im struggling to find a list of the deceased.. can anyone help?
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:28 pm
So let me get this right.
It is better overall for milk to be $7.50 for 2L than for it to be $3.50 for 2L with a limit of one bottle per person?
How is that better?
What about for the person who only has $20 or $30 in their pocket, how is milk at twice the retail price of just 50-60kms away a better option?
How are shortages where a retailer runs out of a product worse than a significant proportion of the population not being able to afford to buy products that then sit on a shelf / in a fridge because low income and people who do not carry cash cannot afford $7.50 for milk or as was the case in QLD during the floods $12 for a loaf of bread.
Supermarkets and retailers are restocking in CHCH, the bulk of the transport network is up and running to within 50KM of the CBD.
Supplies should not be a major issue, a small price rise to cover the increased transport issues I can see, but over doubling is being greedy.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
@Otgo
I was listening to Gerry Brownlee on national radio and – I presume he got this from an expert – he said that one good aspect of liquefaction is that it doesn’t create voids, it fills existing voids on the way up. I don’t fully understand but I suppose the area where the silt comes from is more or less homogeneous.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
kowtow: the programmes you list are, in the overall scheme of government, small; and pale into insignificance compared with the cost of rebuilding Christchurch.
Climate change policy costs about $12 million.
Refugee services are about $17m.
The Crown has set aside $1.4 billion for all historical treaty settlements.
Total Overseas Aid spending is about $500m per year (but that includes things like our membership fees for the UN)
ETS revenue is about $300m.
Estimates of the cost of rebulding Christchurch are in the multi-billions, albeit that will probably be spread across a number of years.
There are some things we need to guard against to keep the costs low:
private interests (like churchs) should finance their own rebuilding
businesses that have not taken out adequate insurance should bear the costs of that
a lot of transparency to stop “gold-plating” of repairs.
But I suspect that some sort of additional levy will be required and that that is the prudent and tarnsparent approach.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
dime – I think there are just the four offical names released by the polis yesterday at this point.
I think the most saddening thing for me so far has been that little five-month old…one of the first acknowledged victims of this quake possibly born since the first one…horrible.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Not surprisngly:
Well intentioned but out of whack with reality.
If that were possible why not requisitiion all winnings from the last year? And the next 12 months. TAB, pokies, scratchies and pub raffles too. Why just pick on one gamble in one week?
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 12:58 pm
adze – the best way to understand liquefaction is that it’s the same thing that happens if you stand on the wet part of a beach and paddle your feet up and down without actually picking them up – the sand around you liquefies and you sink slightly.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
cheers james.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Yep James I understand the general principle, it’s just the counterintuitive notion that an eruption of sand from below does not create voids that I don’t get fully.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
adze – the key being “you sink slightly”. The liquefied silt “erupts” because of the pressure of the weighted, compacted bit we live on trying to sink past it.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Big business has chipped in, ordinary Kiwis have dug deep, sports clubs and organisations have donated time and money.
.
.
.
.
.
Anybody heard what the unions have done or donated?
Or are they saving their money for the election campaign?
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Georgebolwing is on to it. All the feel good, fluffy kitten crap that we spend money (we don’t have anyway) on can be shelved until Christchurch is rebuilt & the EQC is refunded.
The money extorted from us under the ETS can be better used locally. Ditto for refugees we don’t need & overseas aid that we’ll be kicked for later down the track. The Tangata Whenua will doubtlessly clutch their $1.4 billion & bleat for more as usual but by now we should be inured to their attitudes.
It’s well known that when the chips are down it is easier to count one’s true friends. At the moment it would seem to be an exclusive club consisting of the USA, UK, Australia, Singapore & very few others.
Charity begins at home & the sooner the better.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
It’s good to see rescue teams converging from all over the world, they will all help with the search and rescue in Christchurch obviously by getting the ebst expertise available, but it also helps spread the expertise worldwide which will keep benefiting in future disasters.
The TV media in particular played a useful part but now they are scouring for stories and they are becoming quite irritating. To much repetitiveness and sensation. The facts and the pictures speak for themselves, I wish the talking heads would just shut up.
I was surprised by the initial news of the disaster, but if anything the shock is slowly growing as the enormity of what has happened and what is yet to happen becomes more apparent. We are still not over the initial impact as we wait to hear of family, friends, acquaintances and business associates.
Obviously the deaths and destruction are terrible, but the aftermath will be huge and lengthy. It’s hard to see how Christchurch can recover, at least not to it’s former size and strength. Too many people have been fraught too much. This will impact for decades rather than years.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
beautox – you are still missing the point. I agree with you in principle with a functioning market – what you are not valuing is externalities or taking account of behavioral economics.
Think of an extreme example – 1 person with lots of money buys all the food and energy available in Christchurch and hoards it. Your analysis is not valuing the economic impact of that behaviour on the other people in Christchurch (people dieing, rioting etc, breakdown of community esprit de corps). This is the key to thinking logically about resource allocation in a crisis – you have to value the externalities and your trite analysis does not. In an emergency the necessary conditions for Pareto efficiency don’t exist – perfect information, perfect information, frictionless transactions, no externalities etc.
What rationing does is obviously set the equilibrium price below its true value. That creates a shortage as demand is greater than supply. That creates queues which impose an additional economic cost on to society. Given it is only a short term phenomenon you can’t make the argument that it causes an inefficient allocation of resources which damages the economy in the long run. We are talking food, water, fuel, public health necessities, not long term subsidies or price controls like farm support subsidies, residential property tax distortions or other structural subsidies which do badly mis-allocate economic resources. If it means the difference between eating or not eataing I think most people in a disaster scenario will happily queue for several hours to get safe food or water. Unfortunately it is not like they are giving up more productive activities (earning wages) to do so.
Remember we are talking about a short term emergency situation – you are arguing that the correct approach here is to allow people who either have no cash or no liquid cash should be allowed to die or get sick at the expense of someone lucky enough to have got to an ATM at 1249 on Tuesday.
Your argument when taken to its logical extreme would be that aid distributed by the Red Cross or the army should actually be priced at the correct supply/demand curve intersection. After all its free – people will just take too much of it causing shortages and distortions in the economy.
I havent attacked you ad hominem (actually I will give it a go now).
I haven’t suggested that in an emergency the logical extension of your approach would be to auction off the services of Search and Rescue personnel. Clearly the most efficient way to allocate them is by price – obviously there is more demand (trapped people in collapsed buildings) than supply (skilled rescuers prepared to risk their lives). So an auction would match up supply and demand perfectly, and meet your criteria. Right? If not why is that different?
In “normal” times I absolutely agree with you – a free market with pricing of externalities is obviously the best way to allocate resources, but in times of crisis you need to be very careful that you don’t ignore or mis-value some very real externalities.
Your links don’t prove your point at all if you read them, you should google more effectively or actually go to university and study economics – if you have studied economics you obviously missed the lectures on externalities or public goods, tragedy of the commons, pigovian taxes, game theory etc.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 2:04 pm
Ah ok James, that makes it clearer. Thanks.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Saw members of the Chemical Workers Union picketing outside Nuplex in Penrose today. What utter dickheads, they should be making resins etc that are needed for the rebuild.
Vote:Saw an EPMU car there as well leading the troops.
February 25th, 2011 at 2:16 pm
heres another idea beautox. That register of available accommodation is such an inefficient of allocating resources. Why not list the accommodation on Trademe and offer it to the best bidder?
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
and another one. I hear there is a shortage of bedding in the shelters- lets auction that off too.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
adze (443) Says:
February 25th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
@Otgo
Can some engineer out there answer these questions for me?
When all the silt comes out of the ground during liquefaction, what happens to the void underground where it used to be?
I was listening to Gerry Brownlee on national radio and – I presume he got this from an expert – he said that one good aspect of liquefaction is that it doesn’t create voids, it fills existing voids on the way up. I don’t fully understand but I suppose the area where the silt comes from is more or less homogeneous.
According to experts I’ve talked to liquefaction (of the sand-volcano, flooding type) is best described by a coffee plunger analagy.
The land sinks forcing the liquids under it to escape via any holes, cracks etc. it can find.
As an aside some experts after the first big quake described ground under houses etc. and therefore undisturbed after the ‘quake as resembling a seascape, whitecaps and all.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
Dime http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/photo-gallery/gallery-e6frf94x-1226011616506
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
beautox, believe it or not, both ways have been tried many times. In fact, both way are being tried right now. I think I prefer the Christchurch system to the Tripoli system.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:09 pm
And from the “this is an incredibly stupid idea” file comes this little gem from the currently banned parasite (posted at Frogblog)
phil u
Posted February 25, 2011 at 2:09 PM
legalise pot..
..all taxes raised for forseeable future used to help re-build christchurch…
..make toking a patriotic act…
..and do it soon..
..it wd be a huge draw for the world cup tourists..
..plus future tourists..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
So far only the Greens have used this tragedy to score cheap political points, even Labour have not sunk that low.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
“So far only the Greens have used this tragedy to score cheap political points, even Labour have not sunk that low.
Yet from the same poster only an hour earlier.
“Anybody heard what the unions have done or donated?
Or are they saving their money for the election campaign?“
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Oi! Bruv! Noooooo!
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:16 pm
Redeye
Feeling guilty that your union brothers have done fuck all are you?
[DPF: Leave politics out of the earthquake threads please]
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:16 pm
nadir: I am not suggesting that raising prices should be compulsory. I am just saying that it should be allowed and not condemned. If people want to queue for rationed goods, that’s fine. If they want to pay a bit more, that should also be fine.
This is a quite separate issue from charity and emergency aid for those unfortunate enough to not have cash for whatever reason. You are twisting my words to suggest people “should be allowed to die or get sick at the expense of someone lucky enough to have got to an ATM at 1249 on Tuesday”
Do you not think that people should be allowed to drive from towns nearby that have sufficient (say) bottled water and sell it at above-normal-market rates? Or do you think that it’s somehow immoral for people to have initiative and increase supply in this manner? Or what??
btw, it’s not very clever to take what I say and extend it to extremes. Do you really think that I was suggesting that the search and rescue efforts should be allocated by price? To suggest that is simply grandstanding.
But I’ll tell you something I saw on the news : search and rescue personnel complaining that they were wasting time queuing for petrol and other goods, annoyed that they were wasting valuable time. Not everyone has nothing to do, as you were trying to maintain.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Case rested.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:21 pm
I’m going to have a bitch. Feel free to move to the next comment.
I keep hearing and reading that the Christchurch Anglican Cathedral is the “heart of Christchurch”.
NO! It’s bloody not!
I doubt any city has a pile of carefully stacked rocks as it’s heart. Christchurch certainly doesn’t.
The Cathedral was an iconic building, one Christchurch has been identified with, one loved by most of Christchurch’s residents whether of the god-bothering type or not.
It was not even our best building (the now defunct Catholic Basilica) nor our grandest (Christs College) although it probably was our most photographed.
We will miss it if it goes completely and quite honestly I hope it is retained in largely it’s current form as a memorial of those who have perished in this tragedy as well as a monument to honour those who have bravely risked life and limb to rescue survivors.
The “heart of Christchurch” is it’s people, people who will rise phoenix-like from this disaster to be stronger, better, more complete.
That heart still beats strongly.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:31 pm
Very Well said MT
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
My neighbour, very well off, just mentioned he was about to send off his usual generous donation when all the talk about a levy began. He said he had cut the amount down considerably because, if the money was going to be extracted from him anyway, no point in giving it voluntarily. Or giving twice.
I thought EQ and insurance took care of the bulk of these costs.
Why is everyone so keen to impose new taxes on themselves?
I think we should all lie low until the costs become clear and John Key tells us there’s no money in the kitty to pay. Then we can look at what the country needs to do. Until then, don’t encourage the Greens and their ilk who love swiping our money from us.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Diverting the ETS may be a good idea, but why would we let the farmers off from paying their share of the earth quake costs?
We would have to come up with a new levy for the country’s largest welfare group.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
well done beautox, you have managed to argue with yourself and win.
Whats the easiest way to guarantee supplies for emergency services? Rationing. Exactly what they have done. Requisition a service station and make it emergency services only. Liase with BP or whoever and make sure it gets supplied first. I saw a policeman announce this was happening on TV yesterday so I’m not sure what you say you saw.
Prioritising supply is standard procedure I am sure, why would you even think emergency crews should not get resource priority? Or perhaps we could use market price signals to allocate the diesel efficiently? Given they have unlimited budget due to the national emergency powers, maybe we should allow them to pay up to $500 per liter for diesel. That would also guarantee their supply, except that the petrol station advertising diesel at $500 per liter would probably be torched by an angry mob. (Pesky externalities again).
You’ve managed to move your point of view from a very simplistic, not really understanding what it means, pseudo Austrian orthodox argument to now whining “but I didn’t mean charity or emergency goods”. So you’re actually a neo-liberal who believes that the government should arbitrarily classify some services as emergency or charity, others as not. Shouldn’t they allow the market to do that via a pricing mechanism? If you are going to be a simplistic idealogue with a poor grasp of economics at least be a consistent one.
And as any scientific method, mathematical or logically trained observer will explain to you, when someone posts a theory one of the first investigations to make is by reductio ad absurdum. Look it up on wikipedia if you have never come across it before.
Keep up, or leave the complicated arguments to the grown ups.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Census cancelled.
This from the govt pamphlet.
“Census information is needed for planning vital public services such as education,health,housing and transport.”
If that’s true, which I doubt,as everything seems to be done by ad hockery,we could save $50 million every 5 years and do it every 10 years instead.
Then we’d get a “snapshot” of the country.
Did any one hear the Chinese diplomat on RNZ say there were 20 000 Chinese nationals in Canterbury?
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
They should not, and yes, it is immoral. In an emergency, people in the nearby town should be supplying that water at no more than usual prices. Or even for free if they have any heart at all. Considering that they can fill up massive containers from the town water supply, that’s exactly what they should be doing. It also was what they were doing, in Christchurch, and it helped a hell of a lot of people a lot more than entrepreneurs clogging the roads with small vehicles to gouge people at the weakest moment in their lives.
Your point is so stupid that even people broadly sympathetic to free-market systems are telling you so. This exact thing has come up time and time again, and places where rationing was not brought in suffered far worse than places that didn’t. Can you even begin to imagine how much more disastrous things could get if people were fighting (and they would be actually fighting, spilling blood) over scarce resources due to a refusal to impose simple controls? We’ve already got looting, we don’t need people getting bashed up by angry mobs for water and other resources.
Like I said above, try out Tripoli if you want to see how much profit can be milked out of human misery in times of crisis.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 4:40 pm
HANG THE TRASH, ps i will supply the rope,PICTURES OF THE LOOTING TOSSERS PLEASE someone
Two men charged with stealing three emergency generators a day after the Christchurch earthquake face a month behind bars after a special Christchurch District Court sitting this morning to deal with criminal cases in the wake of the quake.
Jed Wilson-Calver, 22, unemployed, and Owen Anthony Jackson, a 23-year-old fisherman, offered to leave the city immediately if granted bail, but Judge Michael Crosbie refused, remanding them in custody until March 28, Christchurch Court News website reported.
Judge Crosbie told them: “Those who burgle, loot, steal, or impersonate officials at this time demonstrate that they are capable of anything.”
“Anyone who the courts deem a risk to the community can be expect to be remanded in custody.”
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
nadir : feeling better now? How’s the view from your grandstand. Clearly you have such a superior view from there.
My original post was a comment to a previous poster who called people who were charging more “dickheads”. There was some more posts, and then you have come along with your “I have an economics degree” name-calling. I only have an engineering degree so I do know what reduction ad absurdum is.
However, I was not suggesting any theories (do you know what theories are?? Really?) so I don’t see how that applies. But I’m not going to discuss this matter further with one who thinks I am not a grown up. Nice insult btw. Grown ups don’t actually debate like this in case you hadn’t realized.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
The EPMU looked after me when i was made redundant , i didnt see you there helping us (Lasybum) , the name says it all, ps im working (lasybum)are you.
Vote:Ps Mr Farrar sorry i had to respond slap more demerits on the tab if it makes you feel better
February 25th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Not PC knows:
People are running short of petrol in and around Christchurch. There is a case for petrol price gouging, says mild-mannered economist Eric Crampton, who’s just evacuated Christchurch for Golden Bay.
“Everybody is panic buying petrol. Double prices. Announce they drop in two days. Queues would disappear, folks who could wait would.
“Why should petrol go only to folks with hours to waste? Gas stations could donate excess to recovery.
“Am curious why two-day gas price doubling is evil for the poor, while the ETS, which is permanent, isn’t…”
“Double petrol prices. Do it now,” says Crampton.
(Any press that wants to call Eric for quotes on this, Twitter reply @EricCrampton for his cell number.)
Double petrol prices. Do it now. – Eric Crampton
http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2011/02/double-petrol-prices-do-it-now.html
Hmm, he seems to be an economist.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:09 pm
So, if the bill for this earth quake is going to be $10bn and the population of Christchurch is 350,000,
that is $30k for every man, woman and child……???
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Yes, that does sound rather cheap. What’s the cost of an average dwelling down there?
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
I hate talking about money at a time like this, but you need it to survive so here goes…
You know what really gets me annoyed…?
There are a lot of people out there losing their jobs, or having their hours cut back drastically = having their incomes cut.
Many will have a buffer in the form of some savings, some won’t so much.
Those people will still have to pay their fixed costs – power, water, rates & their MORTGAGE repayments.
Many will struggle financially.
Meanwhile, those on a benefit will continue to receive their “wages”.
All beneficiaries who can work, but won’t, are the lowest, lying, cheating, thieving, worthless scum I can think of.
/rant over.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
NZ should follow the UK and seriously consider scrapping the census bureaucratic make-work permanently.
There is almost nothing it asks that is important enough to measure to the last individual breathing on census night. Everything useful could be measured or obtained far more efficiently and cheaply by other means, including randomised polling of small samples and by collating info govt depts and local authorities already have.
I agree with MT. The people of Christchurch are the heart of Canterbury and mostly are displaying the very best of humanity in this terrible time.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
nadir @ 4 09 read your last line and reflect. The hyperbolic talk of fuel at $500 a liter was where it became utterly stupid. Average car fuel tank 50 liters, fillup cost $2500, where would a market exist at that rate over a fill cost of say $100. Jesus wept, some of your earlier argument had some relevance.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Get the bludging tossers earning their beer /wine income
Rufus (247) Says:
February 25th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
I hate talking about money at a time like this, but you need it to survive so here goes…
You know what really gets me annoyed…?
There are a lot of people out there losing their jobs, or having their hours cut back drastically = having their incomes cut.
Many will have a buffer in the form of some savings, some won’t so much.
Those people will still have to pay their fixed costs – power, water, rates & their MORTGAGE repayments.
Many will struggle financially.
Meanwhile, those on a benefit will continue to receive their “wages”.
All beneficiaries who can work, but won’t, are the lowest, lying, cheating, thieving, worthless scum I can think of.
/rant over.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Rufus
I share your anger, given the call from the scum Greens for a tax on middle NZ I think that if the govt does decide to implement it the very least they can do is roll back the 3.7% increase all beneficiaries received.
If there is to be pain it should be evenly shared.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
The police just released a couple more names of the deceased..but on stuff there is a whole lot of names and photos in alphabetical order.
Vote:Another aftershock just before six.
February 25th, 2011 at 6:21 pm
djg @ 3:59. To make such a statement shows you have the brains of a maggot. If you want to post lies, do it somewhere else where similar people as yourself gather.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 6:23 pm
I see 300 cop from Australia have arrived, been sworn in and ready to shoot the looters HOPEFULLY,
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 6:40 pm
I have much sympathy for Beautox’s argument. How many people in Christchurch since Tuesday have bought less gas than was required to fill their tank, I would assume almost everyone has taken every last drop they could get. If prices were temporarily $3 a litre or more people would only buy what they needed till they could get out of town or more normality returned.
How about as a fund raising method the government announced if $x million dollars was donated they would execute the two generator theifs listed above. I know Id be in for that.
I would support a levy to add to EQC but preferably not through income or payroll taxes. A material increase in house insurance or rates or even a levy on rent (though this would be hard to police) would be a fairer way of doing it as paying for houses is what its for not lost incomes. While it appears EQC has enough to meet this liability the concern for me is building up a decent multi billion fund for the next earthquake (which is probably likely to be in Wellington)
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
Some astonishing stories beginning to emerge, and unfortunately some heart wrenchingly tragic as well.
Vote:So inspiring to see and hear of the bravery and dedication of the people involved in the rescue, makes me so proud to be a Kiwi.
February 25th, 2011 at 8:06 pm
“I have much sympathy for Beautox’s argument. ”
I class price gougers and their sympathizers or par with looters.
This is not like making money like a scalper. These people are pond scum.
I support Gerry Brownlee in is view of them. It is hard to legislate price in an emergency like this but I hope the businesses
are identified and boycoted.
I hope that common sense and common decency prevails over some sick ideology.
I hope blatant price gougers get the crap kicked out of them.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Now that is an idea!
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
“I class price gougers and their sympathizers or par with looters.”
Nice.
So you are putting someone who say fills up his ute with bread and milk in Dunedin, drives to Christchurch and sells the items at double their normal price, in the same category as a looter. I hope you never become a judge.
Try reading what Christchurch resident and economist Eric Crampton says here:
http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2010/09/in-defense-of-price-gouging.html
Can’t you see that there are good reasons why? Apparently not. Just listen to that grandstander, Gerry Brownlee.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 9:22 pm
Christchurch, its leaders and citizens have some tough decisions ahead of it.
We are now aware we have active faults beneath the city and maybe they continue offshore and are now freshly loaded and primes to go? Who yet knows? We still are awaiting a ~ Magnitude 8 Alpine Ft event -according to geologists this is very very likely in the next 50 years (within design life of rebuild).
Insurers, banks and home-buyers will want better performance, businesses will want better performance from their buildings and land. People who were there in those buildings in the CBD will *demand* better performance.
I honestly think now may be the time to seriously consider re-zoning land in Christchurch and repositioning the city towards more stable ground. If existing vulnerable land is to be rebuilt on – what cost is acceptable to achieve the desired performance in terms of liquefaction resistance, foundation and structural performance? Yes we can do it – (see the ami stadium performance for example) but at what cost? Our modern structural codes are very good (a drive around the city will show you how good our newer buildings performed. Fantastic under huge forces!), but we have a legacy of old building stock, and even some of our newer buildings are now damaged. Thinking “outside the box” may be the best thing we can do for the future.
As for the Cathedral and other “iconic structures” – they are important symbols, but they should, also symbolically be retrofitted for human safety. Those 20 souls killed by obsolete construction methods wont come back. The top of the catheral fell off previously in an earthquake in 1888. If we rebuild it it is guaranteed to happen again – to innocent people in the future. So lets see the steel beams, seismic bracing and supports, and a new light glass roof on the steeple of the church that forever says – “we have learnt from our mistakes”. The art of Cathedral design was ever thus.
my 2c.
Vote:February 25th, 2011 at 9:31 pm
Lessons from Kobe as Christchurch looks to rebuild
A geographer and former urban planner who has written a book about the aftermath of the devastating 1995 Kobe earthquake in Japan, says New Zealand will likely need to respond with a national-scale multi-faceted project to assist Christchurch long-term, in the same way the Japanese Government did to revive Kobe.
That could involve the Government injecting money into business sector ventures and efforts to resurrect tourism, as well as subsidising the building of new housing and rebuilding infrastructure.
On disruption to business:
“It really took Kobe ten years to recover and the economy has never fully recovered.
“The level of the damage to the economy in Kobe was such that it became a national project. With Christchurch the second largest city in New Zealand it may have to be a national project to protect the future of that urban area.
“Kobe had the fourth biggest port in the world. Within two years, the shipping had gone elsewhere. The delay was inevitable in fixing the port, getting the gantries back together. Kobe’s traditional industries, ship building and steel making were declining. They never really recovered after the earthquake. It was up to the national government to work with the local leaders to build up new industries and revive tourism for the region. They focused on biotechnology.
Vote:http://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2011/02/25/lessons-from-kobe-as-christchurch-looks-to-rebuild/
February 25th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
mavxp @ 9 22 good valuation of your comment, do you know Wellington at all, Imagine a 6 anything shallow quake on the Fault that runs through the CBD of the capital at 12 51. Thousands dead in the streets from the collapsing canyon walls, jesus wept.
Vote:February 26th, 2011 at 7:42 am
O’Sullivan opines:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10708760
Key should not hesitate to seek nation’s help to finance rebuild
Major levy increases will be needed to restore the Earthquake Commission’s fund in case it is called on by other New Zealanders before it can be replenished over time.
Key should do the same. This is the opportune time for him to review the extent of his Government’s tax-cuts, which are being funded through borrowing and not healthy surpluses, and the extent of the interest-free student loans and Working for Families tax credits bequeathed by the previous Government.
But it goes further than sacrifices Key might be able to exact at national level through a snap financial package to help the traumatised people of Christchurch.
This tragic event should also be the spur for Auckland’s leadership to get on to its own feet and stop being a drain on the nation’s finances. Put frankly, Auckland can no longer be the priority for the national infrastructure spend. It’s now time for Len Brown to flick a few of the Auckland Council’s gold-plated assets to fund his pet infrastructure project instead of asking for tax funds.
Vote:February 26th, 2011 at 10:30 am
When on earth will the dumbfuck journalists of this country stop using the phrase “borrowing to fund tax cuts”?
It drives me around the fucking bend sometimes. We are borrowing to fund our gargantuan welfare state and bureaucracy.
If ever there is a time to slash the public service and welfare costs it is NOW. I mean people in Christchurch are going without food or water yet we still have people on 6 figure salaries in the “Ministry of Women’s affairs”?
Sorry if I am politicising this thread ( I don’t think I am) but 10 weeks ago Bill English says “we need to be ready for another earthquake- this may take until 2020″.
Vote:February 26th, 2011 at 10:52 am
nickb Hear, hear. This is time now for national austerity and all the human rights, PC and extraneous government departments and agencies should and must be ruthlessly eliminated.
We need to go back to barebones, what is absolutely essential and no frills.
The best would be a straight in-out account – my taxes go to essential services and activities but not to topping up other people’s income or paying for middle-class kids to get a tertiary education or protecting the sensitive from being offended by someone else’s freedom of speech. (I’d tolerate say five years interest free to give them an incentive to pay it back quickly but then wallop in the interest.)
We are all exercising restraint in our own households. Wouldn’t it be great to see John Key lead a national effort!
And get some bludgers off their bums to shovel up silt!
Vote:February 26th, 2011 at 11:15 am
And although I would happily pay an EQ levy, it is another dumb idea.
The national economy is going to be depressed enough after this week. We need to slash some wasteful spending and give Canterbury employers a hand through some tax cuts
Vote:February 26th, 2011 at 11:32 am
Actually, that could be a brilliant idea. Slash taxes for Christchurch-based companies/employees – say a guarantee from the government for 5 years at a really low rate, then another ten at intermediate level with the rest of the country.
That will get people earning more in the hand, encourage businesses to get on their feet, and may even attract new businesses (and hopefully jobs). For the poor family with the destroyed home, this might be the incentive they need to stay in the area.
The tax cuts can be funded by getting rid of student allowance (if they want to study they can get a student loan), the reducing the dole (they can get jobs in Chch to help clean up), and all the usual money the government burns.
There may be a few businesses trying for a Double Dipton, but it would be marketing suicide to rip off the earthquake support.
Vote:February 26th, 2011 at 11:51 am
Beautox – “So you are putting someone who say fills up his ute with bread and milk in Dunedin, drives to Christchurch and sells the items at double their normal price, in the same category as a looter.”
Yup, scum of the earth, I’m only glad I live in a world where the people I know would fill the ute and either give the shit away for free or at the very worst, recoup their costs. No profit at all.
At a time like this all I can see is bollocks to economic theory and bollocks to Eric Crampton.
And yep, hang the looters or at the very least, put up some public stocks and a free pile of rotten fruit and veg.
Vote: