A troll complains
February 13th, 2011 at 9:11 am by David FarrarReceived by e-mail:
Dear David Farrar,
Recently you banned me from your Kiwiblog website stating:
[rest of e-mail deleted by DPF due to copyright complaint by the troll]
I am unsure of the legal requirements for public forums and will be seeking some legal advice concerning the matter. If I am not reinstated as a blogger on your site, I will undertake a test case against Kiwiblog for limiting peoples right to voice an opinion on a public forum. I will also inform the media of such action. …
[rest of e-mail deleted by DPF due to copyright complaint by the troll]
I look forward to your response.
Yours sincerely,
Todd.
You know if Todd has stopped his e-mail with his apology, I probably would have relented and let him back in after a period of suspension.
But threaten me with legal action for your right to comment on my blog. Well fuck that. First of all you show yourself to be very very stupid – my blog is not a public forum. It is my private property, and I allow people the privilege of commenting here at my discretion. I would greatly enjoy any court case where someone tries to gain a legal right to comment on my blog – it would be hilarious.
Todd also threatened to expose what I did in banning him to the media. Well I’ve done that for him. For those who wonder why Todd got booted, feel free to wade through the 280 comments in this thread, especially from around 5.30 pm onwards .
First time I have had someone threaten to sue me for their “right” to comment here. I really didn’t think there was anyone that stupid around.
UPDATE: Todd says he was going to expose me to the media, but when I blogged his complaint letter so the media could see it, he then decided he did not want it public and filed a copyright complaint with my ISP. Hence I have removed most of his e-mail from the post. The remaining sections fall under fair use provisions.
Related posts:
- Councillor complains about Kiwiblog
- Mayor complains to Police over election statement
- Brash complains to Police over Electoral Act investigation
- Some changes to the demerits system
February 13th, 2011 at 9:16 am
Thankyou David.
Vote:No more needs be said but others should also take some note of Todds efforts to get banned.
February 13th, 2011 at 9:23 am
Reading through Todd’s comments about eating brains…..that was just idiot stuff.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:24 am
David, one of the things I like about you is that you know what a property right is. It is in part the right to kick people out. Todd, like probably a majority of New Zealanders I suspect, does not understand this. I fear the day when you will not be able to bar Todd from your own blog, and I think it will happen in this country.
First time I have had someone threaten to sue me for their “right” to comment here
Such is life at the top. Telecom and Microsoft run into the same sorts of problems.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:28 am
Personally, I blame the computer game Plants Vs. Zombies for normalising this behaviour.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:29 am
Todd is obviously well educated, he writes well in the letter. But, seriously, what was he on in all that nonsense posting. Good decision to kick I say. Between Todd and Philu that thread is unbearable.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:30 am
This idiot displays an incredibly arrogant sense of entitlement.
I was delighted when I read DPF had banned him that day. He really was pulling the whole thing down.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:31 am
“I really didn’t think there was anyone that stupid around.”
Oh yes there is, remember. 6.72% of the nation are stupid enough to vote for the Greens.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:32 am
Todd’s got a point in mentioning and responding to the unrelenting and unyielding abusive personal attacks many posters inflict on others simply because they don’t like their take on life.
Personally, I think DPF should clean up that part of life on Kiwiblog.
But sigh, when you look through the posts, who would be left? Pete George?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:33 am
If I am not reinstated as a blogger on your site [...]
Oh vanity!
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:34 am
He had his user name wrong for a start – “Tool” would have been much more suitable.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:44 am
Eating brains does not make you smarter !
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:44 am
Todd is acting like that mad cow Penny Bright who took great umbrage at me removing her screeds of mad dribble she dumped all over my comments.
She thought, like Todd, wrongly, that she had the right to come into my house (blog), abuse the owner of the house and then crap on the carpet as if it was some god-given right.
When you show these people the door they then scream about their civil liberties being infringed.
As I said to Penny, they can have freedom of expression, on THEIR blog, http://www.blogger.com, is very useful and free.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:45 am
The reality is that Todd/Greenfly has had the last laugh, this letter is clearly a wind up, no doubt Todd/Greenfly and the rest of the Greens will be laughing into their decaf coffee’s about now and slapping each other on the back over at Frogblog.
The same Frogblog that bans anybody who dares differ with the Green view of the world.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:45 am
Let him back at some stage, I think you are over-reacting to the legal threat. You are being a bit petulant yourself over this. Forgive and forget and rise above it all. Just because you have the power to kick him off – relent at some stage in the name of free speech. Providing his comments do not present a legal risk to you – that would an exception. Petulance reflects badly on you, that is teenage stuff and Whaleoil who we all know has issues.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:47 am
He should go and join Jim Anderton, the oldest living fossil in NZ, who self-importantly huffed off to yet another highly-paid official to complain that the Nordmeyer Black Budget did not incite riots and the footage shown in the beer ad was from the waterfront riots. And he knew, because he was there! Apart from reminding us just how old he is, does Anderton really think we are all so dumb we learn our history from 30 second ads on TV?
Vote:Do we need to clean up other ads that haven’t stuck to historical or other facts. Or, spare us, movies, starting with The King’s Speech?
If it is such a biggie for him, why not bring it up in Parliament? Or write a letter to the paper like all those saddos (mainly old codgers like him) who love highlighting other people’s mistakes.
Do we really need these over-paid public servants and boards solemnly pontificating to us about what we can think and say. If we don’t like something we can take umbrage all on our own. I’d ban all these state Inquisitions.
Public opinion is surely powerful enough to keep advertisers and broadcasters straight!
February 13th, 2011 at 9:49 am
The idiot thinks he has a ‘right’ to someone else’s private property? What a complete fucktard and clearly a lefty.
(T)odd “If you have political limitations on bloggers…”
I didn’t realise pretending to be a zombie and talking about nothing but brains in every single one of a hundred posts in one day was a “political” issue. Seems to me to be a “trolling retard” issue.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:50 am
Thankfully tvb it’s not your blog. The guy was acting like a tool and is now crying like some spoilt child because their toys have been taken off him for misbehaving. Fuck em.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:51 am
Beab – i’ve got a sneaking suspicion Tui isn’t actually brewed by the models in the ads. Jumberton’s next mission?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:53 am
“i’ve got a sneaking suspicion Tui isn’t actually brewed by the models in the ads”
What????….yes it is, I have seen it on the TV.
You take that back right now.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:55 am
You see this attitude all over the place. Lefties do it on right-wing blogs and righties do it on left-wing blogs.
It’s bullshit either way, your blog your rules.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:57 am
Lets hope he does initiate legal action. We’ll get to find out who he is.
I haven’t ever agreed with the criticisms levelled at Ure , RB and I guess even me, because if you don’t want to read what anyone says, then just skip it. I find those criticisms a bit school-maamy actually.
But it did strike me when that Todd reached the crescendo prior to getting the bullet, the sheer volume of posts was so disruptive I thought that it was in fact an attempt to so severely disrup the blog as to render it unusable.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:00 am
Good riddance, Greenfly. You were messing up the thread.
I second BigBruv’s assertion that you can get banned on FrogFlog for simply disagreeing with greenism.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:02 am
Sounds like a fifteen year old thinking he was being cool by making silly comments. Wonder if the lawyer he asks will charge him for making such a silly suggestion – it’s always been the right of editors to control the content of their publications, tree based or other wise.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:08 am
I don’t agree with a lot of the abuse that flies about here. But Todd was clearly trolling with his brains nonsense, and this letter proves that he is either a smart troll or a fool.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:09 am
Well it actually goes a stage before the act of being banned.
I only got through the first 10 comments by Todd before giving up. His behaviour was like poking at dogs with sticks and then complaining about being bitten.
Is patent rubbish. The first series of comments were inane, irrelevant jibes intended to get a response. Unfortunately he got them, and leveraged off them into the sets of personal attacks.
The best response to that sort of nonsense is to ignore them. It is a strategy unfortunately unable to be adhered to by most. Just look at the Waitangi debacle with the $1000 “koha”. Best response was to state that no coverage from the lower marae will be forthcoming due to unacceptable demands from the marae board and leave it at that.
Nothing leaves idiots so dumbfounded than discovering that they are not that important.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:12 am
(T)odd – “or have a closed forum because of a certain political viewpoint.”
Phool has been allowed to make 10,000 nonsensical leftard screeds, only a complete retard would claim this forum is closed to a certain political viewpoint. You seem to be confusing Kiwiblog with Red Alert.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:19 am
I agree with da Vinci, it was an attack.
Maybe there will be more as the left become more desperate.
Imagine if he won his test case tho! The standard would have to reinstate thousands of normal people.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:22 am
DPF said…
It is my private property
DPF, I absolute agree with your banning of Todd, because it is your property. His/her (Todd’s) messages here sound like someone who advocates bestiality.
However, I didn’t know that you’re proponent of property rights, since you were a strong supporter of the Govt (David Cunliffe) kneecapping Telecom a few years ago. What about the property rights of those ma & pa who lost their Telecom share values from that Labour Govt anti-property rights action? Do you only value property rights when it is yours but not others? I hear you say, that Telecom’s case was different since the law made/bound them to certain conditions that they must abide by. How about if the Govt came up with a law allowing anyone and everyone to make comments on blogs where blog-owners can’t ban a commentator irrelevant of their behaviour?
I recommend that you (and anyone else) on this blog should read Not PC’s (philosophical-based) definition of rights.
Why I keep bringing this up. Well, it is obvious in this case; that I can see that you defend your property rights but blind to rights of others (Telecom?). See, if one sticks to the well-grounded objective definition of rights as advocated by Peter Creswell, then there is no contradiction at all (in reality – either in law or life in general).
The danger of this arbitrarily defining rights by our lawmakers or the UN (ie, from advocates who don’t base it on well-grounded objective philosophical-based definition), because they will shift according to whims of politicians. If the wind blows from that direction, the goal post will shift. If it blows from the opposite direction, again the goal post will shift. You can see what I mean here, because it has been brought up recently (Clare Curan) at RedAlert that internet access is a human rights, which is exactly the bogus rights that Peter Creswell is talking about in his short summary above. It is more likely that at a future date, the UN will declare internet access as a human rights, which is a bullshit rights.
As I said many times here, that objective reality doesn’t contradict itself, however we humans do.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:33 am
Your blog v his sense of entitlement.
Vote:My vote is he stays banned.
Not that I believe I have a vote. (the blog is yours)
My personal trend with the difficult and unpleasant people is leave them where they want to be.
Just not around me.
February 13th, 2011 at 10:34 am
I think Todd, in his enthusiasm for scooping out and consuming brains, may have accidentally eaten his own.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:41 am
” I have to power to kick anyone off i don’t like, it is MY property I do as I like etc etc”. Yuck is my response to that. Petulance of that kind is not the behavior of an adult. A teenage girl perhaps, a dreadful old queen perhaps. Chris Cater springs to mind. Let Todd back at some stage, let him debate with others, even if it is offensive.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:42 am
“You seem to be confusing Kiwiblog with Red Alert.”
Or FrogBlog.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:42 am
Never had any, that’s why he wanted yours!
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:44 am
He sounded like a retarded retard. Completely wrecked that GD. There are a few others you could ban as well for reducing your blog into shit-throwing matches.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:47 am
Since I am not using Firefox now (I am using Chrome, well, actually Iron, a Chrome clone), I haven’t got RIP. But I seriously considered going back to it due to Todd’s shitting all over that thread.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:54 am
I always thought that the daily thread was just a honey pot to try and keep the regular posts a bit more relevant. Had no idea that people were so active in these.
The guy may act like an idiot but that does not mean you should sink to his level Sir Farrar.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:05 am
bigbruv>The reality is that Todd/Greenfly has had the last laugh,
How do you know they are the same person? I can never figure those things out
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:09 am
Let me join the chorus and shout: Todd, get fucked!
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:20 am
Falafulu: good post. Yes, much as I like David’s position with respect to his own property, I have noticed, shall we say, slightly less respect shown to others’, in particular those of shareholders in Telecom and Vodafone.
And that is a problem. If every believes in property rights only with respect to what they themselves own, then there is no property.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:32 am
big bruvs’ first comment of the day..
a short one..
but he manages to drop two whoppers..
“..The reality is that Todd/Greenfly has had the last laugh..”
todd is not greenfly..i know who greenfly is…i repeat..todd is not greenfly..
..(but big bruv knows this…and i wonder is he is such a sociopathic-liar in the rest of his life..and how can anyone believe anything he says/claims..?)
“…The same Frogblog that bans anybody who dares differ with the Green view of the world…”
once again..total lies…as big bruv himself goes there/has been there…attacking at will..
..and has never been banned…(see what i mean about sociopathic..?…)
and if anyone was going to be banned for challenging green policies etc…it would be me..
…as i regularly rip into them over their blazing contradictions in claiming to be green..and eating animals..
…not to mention their failures around the pot-laws..
..and tho’ my attacks/criticisms are slighyly more nuanced than the yelps from big bruv..
…they are the proof that frogblog is an open forum..
..whereas those extreme rightwing blogs he is such a fan of….
..will brook no criticism…and instantly ban/abuse…
q.e.d…eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:39 am
Obviously the guy is a lefty with an overblown sense of entitlement. It’s his right to have access to your blog….. Great you banned him.
And philu – are you also greenfly by any chance ?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:43 am
no..greenfly is erudite and witty..
phil(whoar.co.nz
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:49 am
@blackpaul 9:55am:
I’d go further. Idiots, often teenage idiots, like to troll on blogs. Lefty teenage idiots do it on right-wing blogs, righty teenage idiots do it on left-wing blogs. After trying it a couple times they learn that it isn’t half as funny as they thought, and everyone’s ignoring them. The smart ones (and smart people can be idiots too) start to actually engage and learn something. The dumb ones stay banned.
DPF, I’d let him back, but make it clear that mindless trolling about something stupid like brains isn’t tolerated. Make some arguments, make some points, act politely, he’s welcome back. I’d also point out that half of the comments on a thread isn’t proportionate. No more comments than philu should be the rule, and ideally about half as many. He’s clearly capable of making some arguments, it was a bit stupid to make a threat about legal action but that’s just immaturity. I’d just cut him a little slack, make it clear what the rules are, and that a repeat offence will result in a permanent banning. Shit, we give kids a second (and third, and fourth) chance for stealing cars,
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:52 am
davidp: “How do you know they are the same person? I can never figure those things out
”
big bruv’s method is much the same as the one you might use to hunt possums with a sword. And with a similar degree of success.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:53 am
It would actually be quite helpful to have a court case about this and get the issue formally sorted. While Todd’s side of the case doesn’t appear strong, there are a number of arguments that can be made to support his position. Just for argument’s sake, wouldn’t it be interesting if blog “owners” would be estopped from removing comment that otherwise stayed within the confines of published rules? (Just think of the discussion that would arise at the Standard, Frog or Red Alert).
I would suggest to David to get around the table with Todd and turn this into a test case, there will be plenty of lawyers out there who would take it on pro bono, so it could be done for little cost.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:53 am
Stop stealing my words (erudite) Phool.
Being a dumb redneck. I thought long and hard to come up with that one yesterday!
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
will have to keep an eye out for a new contributor in the near future
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
“I would suggest to David to get around the table with Todd and turn this into a test case, ”
What the fuck for? Todd banned. Decision made. The end. Move on.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
I guess wasnt Fomenting Happy Mischief under the supposed terms and conditions of Fomenting Happy Mischief
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
I didn’t think Todd’s sustained idiocy was Happy Mischief at all – there’s all sorts of rubbish from time to time, especially on GD, but the Todd attack was the most persistent and annoying I’ve seen here, especially when it spread across all threads.
All I was doing was trying to install some humour within my posts.
Even if it was humorous initially (not to me) the persistency of repeats, especially after a number of comments pointing out the unfunniness and amount of irritation it was causing, made it clear that extreme disruption was the intention.
There’s nothing to stop Todd from apologising and assuring he won’t be so stupid again. And there’s nothing to make DPF change his decision.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
“wouldn’t it be interesting if blog “owners” would be estopped from removing comment that otherwise stayed within the confines of published rules? ”
Not really. Anyone who had a specific set of published rules would just add “…any post may be kept or removed, and any commentor may be banned, for any reason entirely at the blog owner’s discretion”.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
“Even if it was humorous initially (not to me) the persistency of repeats, especially after a number of comments pointing out the unfunniness and amount of irritation it was causing, made it clear that extreme disruption was the intention.”
I had a prissy old uncle that sounded just like you Petey.
Everything had to be just so.
Didn’t like his tea too hot or too cold.
Called fresh air a draught.
Fortunately he died.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Johnboy, if I thought everything had to be “just so” I wouldn’t keep coming to Kiwiblog .
What point are you trying to make – did you think the Todd intrusion was ok?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
No it was childish and over the top but it takes all sorts to make up the rich tapestry we call life and I always feel a little uncomfortable when someone is silenced in an arbitrary manner without warning.
Those of us who push the envelope know whats coming and sometimes we just do it to get a break from this addiction called Kiwiblog.
However it is Davids blog and he can do as he sees fit. I have to say he is pretty lenient most of the time and that is rare when compared to the socialist blogs.
Still freedom of speech has never rated as highly as toeing the party line amongst lefties.
Hope you are not finding the place too draughty Petey.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
Todd’s silly posts that day are hardly the crime of the century. While he did himself no favours with his so-called apology, I’d just ‘forgive and forget’ and move on.
Vote:I’m more bothered with the posts where people are bullying others and/or just being outright abusive and nasty. Often these go unchallenged (ie no demerits).
But as DPF says – at the end of the day it’s his blog.
February 13th, 2011 at 2:39 pm
I’ve put up with a lot more abuse here without grizzling than you’ve dished out Johnboy. A lot of the crap seems to be fueled by another type of draught.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
I guess now that Todd is banned he will have to settle for talking loudly on his cellphone at movies.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 2:49 pm
…they are the proof that frogblog is an open forum..
You might ask them why they are using IP blocking, then.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 2:57 pm
I have always respected your POV Petey.
I was always to taught to respect my elders even if they were doddering old farts.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Say what you will about the greens, but as far as left wing blogs go they are the fairest of the lot.
In fact, I would challenge anyone to come up with a single instance when they have banned anyone.
By the way, Todd as received more warnings from Frog than anyone I can ever remember over there.
And Todd is most certainly not greenfly!
I have had my own scraps with Todd on Frogblog, though curiously he coined the phrase “Zombie” for me, which is strange considering his appetite for brains.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
@philu
“…they are the proof that frogblog is an open forum..”
I decided to test this claim by using the socratic method on one of their threads where they criticised “laddish” appreciation of women. My second post was put into moderation; nothing offensive, no personal attacks, trolling or even particularly robust language.
Unless the moderators are asleep it doesn’t appear that open to me. Far less so than what you’d find here.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
Having just read Shunda’s comment I’ll wait a bit further to see if my second comment is released from moderation.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
There is some odd posting sometimes, philu is usually incoherent & abominably formatted. There’s the guy in Germany?, who sometimes posts while pissed….and it shows. But, they’re forgivable & at least debate the issues…..when they sober up. Or in philu’s case, kills his stone by having a good feed…heh.
Todd’s ramblings were just puerile.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
aye adz…and frog is usually unfailingly polite/apologetic when they are released..
..muttering about filter-glitches..
i mean..you can even say fuck there now…
..with nary a blush…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:16 pm
Frog blog was having issues with blatant spam, I know they tried different filters to try and stop it and many legitimate comments were accidentally placed in moderation.
But if there is anyone with legitimate evidence of blatant censoring I will be the first to condemn it.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:25 pm
“i mean..you can even say fuck there now…”
But can you discuss women with facial hair?
That would be the true measure of freedom at a Greenie blog.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
Huzzah! It was. I take it back then; it would be interesting to see what previous personae non gratae were banned for.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:37 pm
But can you discuss women with facial hair?
I am this minute discussing feminist “issues” on frogblog with narri a hint of moderation, care to join in Johnboy?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:37 pm
adze..you are just believing one of todays’ lies from the sociopathic-liar big bruv..
..frogblog does not ban/censure…
don’t you believe anyone..?
..haven’t you just proven that yrslf..?
..now..how about that bastion of free speech run by red…eh..?
whoar…’holy banning-frenzy..!..batman..!’
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
But I would have to then take your word for it then phil (and Shunda’s)
What I posted hardly tested their tolerance for free speech and hasn’t proved much. But they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
(and if you need further proof…
…this is what i wasn’t censored for today…)
phil u
Posted February 13, 2011 at 1:56 PM
if the dairy-cancer..dairy-pimples evidence/proof dosen’t do it…
http://whoar.co.nz/?s=dairy
what exactly would it take to make you all realise you are not only aiding/abetting/financially-supporting the most gruesome abuse/torture of other living creatures..
(who the fuck gave you the right to kill/eat them…?
just to feed yr addictions to flesh/fat/blood..eh..?..)
..not only is all that going on…
…you are also killing yrslves…?
mmm…????
..what more proof do you want/need…?
..or do you not want that proof..?
..as ‘good greens’ you wd rather retain the blinkers you wear to the suffering/pollution you are a direct cause of..?
..is that it..?
..but really..what will/would it take..
..that is a serious question…
..’cos i am gobsmaccked you can all just ignore/never refer to/never respond to…
..what is proven that you do…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)..”
so..y’know…i’m not holding back…eh…?
and that is one of my regular bitches/moans at them..
in fact…not even having a demerit system..(a la kiwiblog..)
..and not censoring..or banning..
wd have to make frogblog the bastion of blog-freedom-of-speech/ideas…in new zealand…
..eh..?
..show me one better…
..eh..?
q.e.d…
..eh..?
and in fact the complete opposite to what was claimed by the sociopathic-liar…
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
@big bruv 9:45 am
Contrary to your assertion, very few commenters have ever been banned from Frogblog, and none have been banned for differing from the Green view of the world.
There are many right wingers (eg Gerrit, photonz1) over at Frogblog who have commented there for many years without a problem. The reason a small number of commenters have been banned there have been persistent use of offensive language, persistent threadjacking, or persistant abuse directed towards me and the Green MPs (making continued unfounded and derogatory comments about one Green MP’s mental health and claiming others are communists doesn’t help, big bruv).
@adze 3:02 pm
No problem with either of your comments at Frogblog from my point of view. Were you logged in there for the second comment you refer to? If you comment there when not logged in and just provide an email address it goes automatically into moderation to prevent commenters stealing the identity of others.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
BluePeter, frog.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
DRHILL (says:
Quite true… juvenile and pathetic are words that come to mind.
But then again, Deborah Coddington can allege in the HoS that the left want to “drug your braaaaains” and:
1. No one in ACT says “Yeah, sorry, yet another fruitcake we paid with your money. Won’t happen again, honest”.
2. A newspaper pays her to write that drivel; and
3. DPF picks it up and repeats it!
To quote Forrest Gump, “Stupid is as stupid does”, regardless of whether it’s on Kiwiblog or in the HoS.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Rex don’t be an idiot. She didn’t say that 300 times and say nothing else.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 5:08 pm
for the 1st time ever, I had a look at frogblog and there is the bit about the emotional speech Turei gave about her Dad .. oh God .. all that time money and effort on becoming a lawyer , and time spent in bizarre political parties not mentioned, and she wants to be a politician. I thought Tremain’s speech about his Dad and Grandparents was far more telling.
Vote:The greens give me the shits. They exploit the emotions of the public, who want to do the right thing for the planet, by demanding the Govt follow a list of policies that would destroy our international viability. A Green/Labour/Maori/Winston1st coalition would be a disaster
February 13th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Perhaps the McGillicuddy Serious Party should make a comeback.
They had similar economic policies as the Greenies but a far less demented leadership.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Rex,
Perhaps one difference between Todd & Coddington is the deliberate use of genuine language constructs to make a clear and real point – that is, a little hyperbole to illustrate a point.
The point; that simply taking Morgan’s money and redistributing it would not provide true equality as his ideas and capabilities are what really create the comparative inequality – the money is a by-product which provides a handy point of measurement, but is not the ‘source’ of the inequality. You can tax his earnings as much as you like, but his ideas and abilities remain with him. The result is the poor get a little more money and remain as unequal as before.
Or to put it another way, Coddington made some clear points and legitimate debate. Todd was merely indulging in some virtual tossing for his own amusement. I do hope the climax was worth it for him.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 5:18 pm
Grant Michael McKenna said
Lol. That’s what I like about Kiwiblog – there’s always good humour to be found in the comments section (unlike leftie blogs).
Todd should really try The Standard.org.nz where his comments wouldn’t be out of place. In fact, they’d be a cut above!
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Put it away:
So stupidty’s okay in small doses?
bhudson says:
I know all about hyperbole, I used to host talkback
But I never said anything that stupid. “The left want to drug people with intelligence” is up there in the hyperbole stakes with “John Key eats babies”. I might expect it from a talkback caller, but not someone who’s paid good money to advance public debate.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
Rex, stop pretending to be stupider than you are. You know perfectly well she didn’t say ““The left want to…” she said “If the gaps are really to be closed, spirit-levellers would have to…”. It is illustrating how silly the left’s goals are by showing what ridiculous means you would have to use to actually acheive them. Don’t pretend you don’t understand this, you’re just demeaning yourself for a meaningless cheap point that will only impress those with poor reading comprehension ( hi phool!)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 5:54 pm
Rex – “But I never said anything that stupid. ”
Neither did she.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 6:24 pm
Frog
“frog (79) Says:
February 13th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
@big bruv 9:45 am
The same Frogblog that bans anybody who dares differ with the Green view of the world.
Contrary to your assertion, very few commenters have ever been banned from Frogblog, and none have been banned for differing from the Green view of the world.”
That is total bullshit Frog, you are well aware that anybody who does not share the green view of the world, or dares ask questions of the Green party is banned
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 6:25 pm
@Peter 4:37 pm
Like this from BluePeter on a frogblog thread about John Key’s failure to condemn a British MEP’s comments supporting the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, for example, Peter?
A classic example of trolling and attempting to jack the thread to a completely unrelated topic!
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 6:26 pm
Frogblog is a fetid swamp, a sewer of the same quality as the sub-Standard. Not worth reading, let alone commenting on it.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
“and claiming others are communists doesn’t help, big bruv).”
Ha ha…so one can be banned from Fogblog for telling the truth?
Remember the lies you told us about Bradford be ‘Green’ Frog?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 6:44 pm
Thanks for the reply, frog. I did it the way you described and didn’t log on – but also didn’t do anything different when I posted my first comment (which didn’t go into moderation). No matter though.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Hi Frog
I’m not sure if the it’s the same as moderation, but last election when you had the “Vote for Me” campaign, I uploaded a cute photo of some Palestinian children, and it was rejected by the moderators. I’m not sure why, although they were holding a Hamas Missile … But I was told that Hamas are the “colleagues” of the Green party?
In your recent blog post, you call Benyamin Netanyahu the “Prime Monster”. Can I assume that you aren’t his colleague, although you are the colleague of Hamas? So why would my photo be rejected?
Appreciate your answer,
Thanks
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:15 pm
“.Manolo (3,235) Says:
February 13th, 2011 at 6:26 pm
Frogblog is a fetid swamp..”
one of the most racist…and biggest….kiwiblog shit-slingers..
calls frogblog a ‘fetid swamp”..
..brilliant…!
..and classic projection…
(like the playing around husband..looking accusingly at his partner….)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Much as it pains me to agree with Phil for the second time this week, I agree that Todd wasn’t Greenfly, or Greenfly’s alter-ego Village Idiot (an accurate self-parody IMHO). “Greenfly” has his own blog under his real name, and comments Greenfly/Village Idiot-like at other blogs, mine included, again under his real name.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:42 pm
“Whaleoil February 11, 2011 at 2:29 pm
You can have freedom of expression anytime you want, on YOUR blog.
You don’t have freedom of expression on mine.
My blog is an extension of my living room and I am hardly going to have a nutcase like you abusing me in my own living room, and I certainly won’t have it on my blog.
You want freedom of expression go to this site and get your own blog. http://www.blogger.com”
Cameron – you are SO ill-disciplined.
Weren’t you told at the highest levels not to ‘engage’ with Penny Bright?
My tactic – ‘poke the rottweiler with a stick’ worked better than I could have ever hoped.
You – Mr ‘Freedom of Expression’ (NOT), have just exposed your lack of commitment to freedom of expression – on your own blog.
How DUMB is that?
I’m sure there are people having a good laugh (unfortunately at your expense) all over the place.
You see Cameron, lots of people don’t like hypocrisy, and they don’t like abusive ad hominum ‘frothing’.
Do you really think your behaviour is going to help your good mate Jami-Lee?
You know – ‘birds of a feather’ – sort of thing…………….
Had any growlings from 30,000 feet yet, about how your reaction may not particularly help National’s campaign in the Botany by-election?
Probably coming……………..
PS: If you were doing your homework – (know your ‘enemy’) – you would know that I have a blog, and if you were competent and effective – you would be keeping track of what I was saying on my blog.
(That’s what I do.
FYI – my blog is http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
You may particularly like my post: “National Party hack Cameron Slater supports ‘freedom of expression – but not on his blog’.
(Hmmm…………. possibly not.
If you’re playing with the big kids Cameron – I respectfully suggest that you do your homework – and use some ‘political nous’?
PS: Am I banned for calling you a National Party ‘hack’?
(Thought ‘hack’ was a technical rather than abusive term.
Or is it the definition of ‘abusive term’ based entirely in your head and changeable at any moment?)
Good enough for you to have a go at me on someone else’s blog for comments made on yours – good enough for me to have a ‘right of reply’?
Basic ‘fair play’?
You’d agree with that wouldn’t you David?
Kind regards,
Penny Bright
Future MP for Botany?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
Botany Bay perhaps …
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
Penny,
If arguing with you is “playing with the big kids”, what is it called when you progress beyond primary school?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:52 pm
I2, Classic!
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
my god, penny is phils sister?
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 8:09 pm
It’s all good ‘dime’ – I’m neither your ‘god’ nor Phil’s sister
Penny Bright
Future MP for Botany?
(Poking the rottweilers with sticks………..
You folk are SO predictable and SUCH slow learners…………..
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
“my god, penny is phils sister?”
And she’s upped the ante from two full stops to fifteen.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:26 pm
DPF, this truly would be a fantastic ‘test case’. I mean, let’s face it, the Rule of Law and the basic concepts of private property are under constant attack nowadays (and have been for quite some time). The sad fact is that this fool doesn’t realise the ‘test’ would not be about ‘public forums’, but about individual choice (something you may exert, on your own property, with near complete discretion). I wouldn’t be surprised if some judge actually thought this sort of thing worthy of being ‘heard’. Might be worth a chuckle just to see this fool spend money to actually be laughed out of the court. Still, I suspect this is nothing more than some pubescent teenager thinking himself ‘clever’ and wasting all of our time, particularly yours. You should publish the summons if he’s actually stupid enough.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:35 pm
This is the quality of person we have wasting our time running for parliament. What a sad indictment.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:37 pm
Put it away:
Alright fair enough I was being glib. But I really can’t be bothered taking people like Coddington seriously enough to argue at a higher level.
You’re right about what she’s said (though I was going for what I see as the underlying message to the frothers on the right) but in fact that shows utter incomprehension of, or misrepresentation of, what the Spirit Level is saying. In fact the authors claim the opposite: it doesn’t matter how smart or stupid you are, if you take the smart guy’s money and give it to the stupid guy, then the stupid guy will somehow magically succeed (they’re wrong of course).
No need to remove the smart guy’s brains. But someone’s clearly done so to Coddington.
Meanwhile on a different planet entirely:
That’s hilarious. After walking through several steel doors, dialling a secret number and being whisked into the basement in a telephone booth, the Cone of Silence safely in place, a high level National Party operative instructs Whaleoil on the inherent danger of “engaging” with the enemy… there’s certainly an air of Kaos about the campaign
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
If Penny Bright (whoever the hell that is) represents the standards of our aspiring MP’s, then no wonder NZ is fucked.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:53 pm
Penny you and your ilk should aspire to get a real job. You have a laugh a the cheek of this “aspiring” MP.
Bright by surname, but thick as mud is a more fitting description.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 9:57 pm
Todd should now direct his talents to talkback radio, where he will stand out as a beacon of sanity and wisdom.
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:08 pm
amygdalas are on prime…
you righties should be watching it..
it’s about your inflamed/swollen fear centres..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 10:47 pm
Little philu raves on and on and on about amygdalas.
Vote:i wonder if that was what his “good mate’ massaged for him when he was a punk in the boob.
February 13th, 2011 at 10:51 pm
see what i mean..?
hic..!…
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:February 13th, 2011 at 11:13 pm
So – who else is asking Prime Minister John Key the questions that I am?
Like – “Is John Key personally benefiting from NZ’s growing indebtedness?”
(Given John Key’s admitted shareholding in the Bank of America?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXwNoaOpDMw
Anyone else ever made complaints to the Police or SFO about John Key over TranzRail?
Anyone else ever taken a private prosecution against John Key under s228 of the Crimes Act?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFTYZVQo-A8&NR=1
Not one sentence in the Herald over any of the above – but there were ‘man on the moon headlines’ against Winston Peters and NZ First – although he was never accused of ‘feathering his own nest’?
(Which arguably John Key was, over TranzRail when he attempted to flush out commercially sensitive information while he had an undisclosed pecuniary interest?)
The last person the smiling ‘corporate raider’ wants as an Independent Public Watchdog from INSIDE the House is Penny Bright.
There we go!
Looking forward to jamming all those anonymous, ‘ad hominum froth’ buttons on full!
Come on – ‘fill your boots’!
The nastier and more venomous the better – proves that I’m on target.
Kind regards,
Penny Bright
Vote:Future MP for Botany?
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
February 14th, 2011 at 12:31 am
Looks like the irony fairy was here.
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 1:36 am
Penny
I’m personally benefiting from NZ’s growing indebtedness. Not by choice, it just happens to be that way because of how my retirement savings are distributed. In fact I’d prefer if NZ did not have a growing indebtedness.
Tranzrail? Seriously?
it hasn’t crossed your mind the possibility that John Key was acting as Leader of the Opposition and not concerned about his portfolio?
- Anyone can make an OIA request. Anyone.
- Do you seriously think JK was trying to gain insider trading knowledge in person and in open parliament?
- How much did he make from this?
I doubt that even Michael Cullen would entertain such a fantastic idea. What he’d imply to score points is another matter.
There are plenty of unethical businesses out there Penny that are harming your average NZ’er far more than John Key ever will and walking away with millions. That’s a bigger scandal in my book.
Did you dig into Philip Field? If not, then this JK stuff just looks like politics.
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 7:30 am
“- Do you seriously think JK was trying to gain insider trading knowledge in person and in open parliament?”
Absolutely.
“- Anyone can make an OIA request. Anyone.”
When they are attempting to flush out commercially sensitive information from which they could personally benefit at a time they have an undisclosed pecuniary interest???
You have GOT to be kidding!
A QC with whom I discussed this before I took my private prosecution did not agree.
‘Misuse of public office for private gain’ is a widely accepted definition of corruption.
Wasn’t this what John Key was doing?
‘Misusing his public office for private gain’?
Wouldn’t you think that someone with John Key’s extensive business background would have, or should have had a better understanding that any form of ‘insider trading’ was wrong?
That’s not how he made his million$ is it?
Surely not!
High time for an MPs ‘Code of Conduct’ in NZ – the ‘least corrupt country in the world’ – don’t you think?
Or high time to get rid of self-serving businesspeople from public office?
I prefer the ‘public service model’ where ‘service without sacrifice is not service’.
Penny Bright
Future MP for Botany?
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
PS: What happened to all venomous ‘anonymous’ snakes on Kiwiblog?
Vote:Slithered back under your rocks and having your ‘hissy fits’ in private now are you?
February 14th, 2011 at 7:34 am
The same infinitesimal chance of Haiti winning the Rugby World Cup or Chris Carter abstaining from travelling at taxpayer’s expense.
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 7:44 am
Penny has about as much chance of becoming an MP anywhere as I do in becoming the next Bishop of Rome.
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 7:45 am
Want to have an adult discussion about corruption and the lack of genuine transparency in New Zealand ?
Be a major change from the petty sniping?:)
Try this…………….
CORRUPTION REALITY CHECKLIST – NEW ZEALAND
1. Has NZ ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption ? NO
2. Does NZ have an independent anti-corruption body tasked with educating the
public and PREVENTING corruption? NO
3. Do NZ ‘s laws ensure transparency in the funding of candidates for elected public office and political parties at central government level ? NO
4. Do NZ Members of Parliament have a ‘Code of Conduct’? NO
5. Do NZ Local Govt elected reps have a ‘Code of Conduct’? YES
6. Is it an offence for NZ Local Govt elected reps to breach the ‘Code of Conduct’? NO
7. Is there a lawful requirement for a publicly-available ‘Register of Interests’ for NZ Local Govt elected reps? NO
8. Is there a lawful requirement for a publicly-available ‘Register of Interests’ for NZ Central Govt staff responsible for procurement? NO
9. Is there a lawful requirement for a publicly-available ‘Register of Interests’ for NZ Local Govt staff responsible for procurement? NO
10. Is there a lawful requirement for details of ‘contracts issued’ – including the name of the contractor; scope, term and value of the contract to be published in NZ Central Govt Public Sector, and Local Govt (Council) Annual Reports so that they are available for public scrutiny? NO
11. Is it a lawful requirement that a ‘cost-benefit analysis’ of NZ Central Govt public finances be undertaken to substantiate that private procurement of public services previously provided ‘in-house’ is cost-effective for the public majority? NO
12. Is it a lawful requirement that a ‘cost-benefit analysis’ of NZ Local Govt public finances be undertaken to substantiate that private procurement of public services previously provided ‘in-house’ is cost-effective for the public majority? NO
13. Does NZ have a legally-enforcable ‘Code of Conduct’ for members of the NZ Judiciary? NO
14. Are all NZ Court proceedings recorded, and audio records made available to parties who request them? NO
15. Is there a lawful requirement for a publicly-available NZ Judicial ‘Register of Interests’? NO
16. Is there a lawful requirement for a publicly-available NZ ‘Register of Lobbyists’ at Central Govt Ministerial level? NO
17. Is there a legal requirement at NZ Central and Local Govt level for a ‘post-separation employment quarantine ‘ period, from the time officials leave the public service to take up a similar role in the private sector? NO
18. Is it a lawful requirement that it is only a binding vote of the public majority that can determine whether public assets held at NZ Central Govt or Local Govt level are sold; or long-term leased via Public-Private –Partnerships? NO
19. Is it unlawful in NZ for politicians to knowingly misrepresent their policies prior to election at central or local government level? NO
20. Do NZ laws promote and protect individuals, NGOs and community-based organisations who are ‘whistleblowing’ against ‘conflicts of interest’ and corrupt practices at central and local govt level and within the judiciary? NO
Prepared by Penny Bright – for Transparency International 14th Conference 7/11/2010
Vote:IACC ID D – 1198 http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
February 14th, 2011 at 7:58 am
Penny Bright said
There are several possibilities:
1) Most of us have jobs to go to (because we are productive members of society, not parasites), and are asleep after 1.30am on a Monday morning
2) There’s a little gizmo called RIP which runs on Firefox, and allows discerning Kiwibloggers to filter out annoying trolls, frutiloops and conspiracy theorists
3) Your sphere of influence is not as large as you think it is, and as you would like it to be.
Inventory2
Vote:More chance of being “Future MP for Botany?” than Penny Bright …
February 14th, 2011 at 8:06 am
“Like this from BluePeter on a frogblog thread about John Key’s”
Clearly an aside, and hardly worth a ban.
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 8:18 am
Who is the ‘parasite’ ‘Inventory 2′?
I’m self-funded – so you can’t possibly be referring to me.
Because you have a paid job (unlike myself) doesn’t give you the right to get your facts wrong.
Respectfully request that you do your homework before having your little ‘hiss’?
No ‘considered opinion’ on how to help NZ become more genuinely ‘transparent’?
No ‘adult discussion’?
How surprising……….
(not)
Kind regards
Penny Bright
Future MP for Botany?
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 8:50 am
@ Penny; the post wasn’t about NZ becoming more genuinely transparent. DPF sets the agenda, just as you or I do in our respective blogs. Those who try to threadjack abuse the goodwill of the host.
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 9:23 am
# Jim (182) Says:
February 14th, 2011 at 1:36 am
Penny
So – who else is asking Prime Minister John Key the questions that I am?
Like – “Is John Key personally benefiting from NZ’s growing indebtedness?”
I’m personally benefiting from NZ’s growing indebtedness. Not by choice, it just happens to be that way because of how my retirement savings are distributed. In fact I’d prefer if NZ did not have a growing indebtedness.
Tranzrail? Seriously?
it hasn’t crossed your mind the possibility that John Key was acting as Leader of the Opposition and not concerned about his portfolio?
Jim (182) Says:
February 14th, 2011 at 1:36 am
“- Anyone can make an OIA request. Anyone.
- Do you seriously think JK was trying to gain insider trading knowledge in person and in open parliament?
- How much did he make from this?
I doubt that even Michael Cullen would entertain such a fantastic idea. What he’d imply to score points is another matter.
There are plenty of unethical businesses out there Penny that are harming your average NZ’er far more than John Key ever will and walking away with millions. That’s a bigger scandal in my book.
Did you dig into Philip Field? If not, then this JK stuff just looks like politics.”
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
I was responding to ‘Jim’, ‘Inventory 2′.
I was showing the work that I AM doing in opposing ‘unethical business’ /corruption and fighting for genuine transparency.
How is that ‘threadjacking’?
Don’t you like robust debate on the issues?
Prefer the infantile, petty, ad hominum sniping and personal attacks?
Wouldn’t you agree that I am helping to considerably raise the level of debate and discussion on Kiwiblog with my well-considered opinions, which are based on facts and evidence?
The facts are – that I have actually made the effort to find out more about corruption and how to fight it by getting over to two significant anti-corruption Conferences (thanks to those who helped out financially to get me over to the Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference 2009, and the 14th Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference in 2010.
Not only did I learn a lot – but I have made a number of contacts with international experts – some of whom I am now in regular correspondence.
See- that’s the thing about activists – (despite the bad press) we do have an ability to get off our butts and get things done?
And- with all due respect – I’m sure David Farrar is quite capable of telling me himself if he finds my attempts at informed debate and discussion ‘threadjacking’?
I mean it is HIS blog – not yours isn’t it?
Giving freedom of expression to those whose views you adamantly oppose is the true test of commitment to freedom of expression.
A test Mr ‘Freedom of expression’ (not) Cameron Slater has just failed.
Miserably.
It appears that he has banned me because I called him a National Party ‘hack’?
What is factually inaccurate about THAT?
Kind regards.
Penny Bright
Future MP for Botany?
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 6:40 pm
I was reading through the most recent posts and wondering what this thread was all about. Then I read the last one above and remembered, ah yes! “A troll complains”
Vote:February 14th, 2011 at 6:51 pm
yes bhudson, and if you, and now I, had left it where it was without commenting further, it would have concluded as “a troll remains”.
Vote:February 15th, 2011 at 7:53 am
Message for Cameron Slater (Whaleoil) – seeing as he has banned me from posting on his blog because I called him a National Party ‘hack’:
Well Cameron – David doesn’t seem to trumpet his support for ‘freedom of expression’ like you do – but at least in my case, he has in practice.
Thank you David.
‘GOTCHA’ Cameron?
Moving along…………………….
Coming to the first Botany By-election ‘Candidates Forum’?
“With the Times newspapers giving support to the Trust, another “Meet the Candidates” forum is now planned for the 2011 Botany By-Election. Details are:
Time: 7. 30 pm Tuesday 15 February
Venue: East City Wesleyan Church Centre, 219 Burswood Drive, Burswood/Botany
Host : Rev Dr Richard Waugh
Chair/Facilitator: Lloyd Wong (Local resident)”
____________________________________________________________________________________
It’s all good Cameron – I don’t get personal or nasty and don’t hold grudges.
Look forward to seeing you there!
Penny Bright
Future MP for Botany?
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
Vote:February 15th, 2011 at 9:06 am
Future MP for Botany?
You’d stand a better chance in Mana.
Vote:February 18th, 2011 at 2:04 pm
At my most charitable, I can only conclude that Penny is a future candidate for lobotomy.
Vote:February 18th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
I think she is certifiable.
Vote:February 18th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
How she’s escaped certification i don’t know.
Vote: