Idiocy

February 4th, 2011 at 8:04 am by David Farrar

James Weir reporrts in the Dom Post:

Unions said there was a risk of a “jobless recovery”. Farmers enjoying high commodity prices may simply pay back debt, while consumers held off spending and firms avoided hiring, the National Distribution Union said. “Many jobs lost in the recession will not be replaced,” its general secretary, , said.

He called for a lift in the to $15 an hour …

Oh yes putting the minimum wage up to $15 an hour will create jobs.

Why stop there. Let’s solve and put the minimum wage up to $30 an hour.

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131 Responses to “Idiocy”

  1. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    It was a truly jawdropping moment. And depressing to realise so many people still live in cloud-cuckoo land when it comes to the minimum-wage/employment link.

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  2. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    There should be a law against paying down debt and saving money.

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  3. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    If I hear another talking head on TV, or, another of our pathetic media slime ask the question “what have the government done to create jobs” I may well scream.

    It is NOT the job of the government to create jobs, that is the job of the private sector, the sooner those morons work that out the better.

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  4. Monty (944 comments) says:

    it is election year. The left have lost their constitutency. They are freightened of National winning the election with an absolute majority. The $15 per hour is nothing more than popularist politics and a slogan. They are thankful that they will never have to implement a policy for at least 7 years by which time the minimum wage will be about $14.50.

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  5. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    [this page left intentionally blank. Just like Robert Reid's mind]

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  6. Inventory2 (9,786 comments) says:

    Indeed. As an employer of around 30 staff, I can assure Robert Reid that a 20% increase in the minimum wage is EXACTLY what would entice me to further increase my staff numbers – NOT!

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  7. Rich Prick (1,319 comments) says:

    As someone who spends the minimum wage on a reasonable glass of wine, I am probably not qualified to comment. But I have always thought the solution was to lower the minimum wage so the buggers work longer and harder. That would raise productivity.

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  8. Fisiani (848 comments) says:

    Labour Party activists do what is good for Labour.
    Labour Party activists do what is good for Labour.
    Labour Party activists do what is good for Labour.

    How many times does it need to be said.
    The Labour route to winning elections is to borrow money from Japanese housewives and Dutch dentists and be seen to be generously giving this money to a) students b) minimum wage workers c) protest groups, d) pensioners e) parents of ECE children f) WFF recipients g) Taliban schoolteachers h) conservationists i) fruit and vegetable eaters.
    They believe that a+b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i = electoral success.
    It destroys NZ but boosts Labour.
    They believe that personal greed will outweigh logic and be good for Labour.
    Everything they do is for Labour.

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  9. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    (Haven’t been given any largesses by any Labour Govt Fisiana, that’s why I do most of my conservation work overseas).

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  10. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    mr farrar:…given yr trenchant opposition to increasing wages for the lowest/worst-paid….

    (how are those tax cuts going for you..?..btw..)

    cd u give us the revisionist/latest ‘take’ on that pre-election promise from key..

    ..namely..to ‘close the wage gap with australia’..

    or wd u rather a discreet veil just be drawn over that…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    [DPF: Pleased you asked. Real after tax wages have increased faster in NZ than Australia since 2008]

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  11. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    Well if you eggs can put your brain in gear for a moment… If the situation existed where the minimum wage was in fact quite a chunk higher it would be fantastic for the country. The relative position of the lowest paid on New Zealand’s wealth spectrum would be restored to where it used to be. The entire country would benefit. The wealth of the nation would be spread more evenly between the people of the nation. (and of course all manner of social ills would improve).

    But of course there would be period of adjustment while current settings graunched into the new settings.

    And besides all that it is actually not possible for the average mum dad and the kids to live on the minimum wage. It is a serfdom / slavery. You mean bastards.

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  12. Manolo (12,607 comments) says:

    Why stop there. Let’s solve unemployment and put the minimum wage up to $30 an hour.

    Why stop there? Let’s quintuply the unemployment benefit so we can get rid of the parasite that lurks around here.

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  13. Rich Prick (1,319 comments) says:

    vto, do you think that some of my wealth belongs to you/your minimum wage mates? If so, please explain why I should surrender it to you/your minimum wage mates.

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  14. Dave Mann (1,125 comments) says:

    It might seem like mindless right wing rhetoric to some to say this, but I don’t think there should be a minimum wage imposed on employers at all.

    In my (self employed) business I have seem countless examples of workers who are contributing very little to profitability and I would hate to be having to pay some of these people even $10 per wasted hour.

    If the very concept of a minimum wage were abandoned tomorrow I think that unemployment would instantly be halved and employees would be paid what they are actually worth. This assumes a strong union movement to collectively fight on their behalf…. but I see no problems at all with this.

    We will only continue to slide as a country as long as we allow bureaucrats and interfering meddlers to stifle our economy.

    I am self employed and I don’t tell people what I ‘should’ be paid by ‘law’. If I tried that, I wouldn’t get any work at all and rightly so.

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  15. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    and looking at minimum-wage increases as a tool of economic-stimulation..

    …as has been pointed out in the past..

    ..the best way to stimulate an economy….

    …is to stimulate the bottom end of that economy…

    ..for the very simple reason…

    ..that all of that money immediately churns back into the economy..

    ..as the lowest-paid/poorest use 100% of their income ..just to live…

    …what exactly is it about that 1+ 1 = 2 economic-fact..

    ..that you hidebound ideologues can’t/don’t seem to understand…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  16. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    vto,

    I think it is you that needs to upgrade to synchromesh brain gearing. Increasing the minimum wage will have the opposite effect – it will increase unemployment, further widening the gap, not closing it. Sure you could try and argue that those in employment would have their earnings gap closed somewhat, but at the expense of the constituents your theory is supposed to represent, not at the expense of the wealthy.

    Nice that you are prepared to sacrifice the many (the newly and continued unemployed under your plan) just so that you can claim that wealth gaps are closing (which, of course, they won’t be in reality, but since when has reality been a roadblock to the Left?)

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  17. 3-coil (1,182 comments) says:

    Farmers must never forget the enormous debt they owe to the unions – a timely reminder from Robert Reid.

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  18. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    Vto is right. A good portion of Dimes wealth should be transferred to some of the losers he went to school with. the guys that left school at 16 and decided they didnt want to work.

    I’m a mean bastard for working my ass off and achieving greatness.

    All those years where i got out of bed early morning and went to work, while they slept til lunch time and then got stoned.. that means nothing.

    They should have as much money as me. its just nto fair wah wah wah

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  19. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    hudson…steady that sphincter..!..eh..?

    ..you can spew all the anti-left rhetoric you like….eh..?

    ..an increase in the minimum wage is the least of yr concerns…eh..?

    yr tory mates in britain are cranking the tax-rate up to 83%…

    ..the pendulum is about to swing back the other way..

    ..aren’t you terrified that such (formerly) no-no topics/options for discussion as higher tax rates for the rich….

    ..and capital gains taxes…

    …and transaction taxes…

    …have become such common-currency..?

    …with ‘when’..not ‘if’…being the debated point..?

    ..don’t worry..!..you’ll still be rich..!

    ..just not as rich…

    …eh…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  20. Radman (127 comments) says:

    Philu, you don’t earn a wage anyway so why do you claim to know about them?

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  21. georgebolwing (493 comments) says:

    Vto.

    As this is a matter of economics, the issue has to be resolved by looking at the costs and benefits.

    You have noted the benefits of people on low incomes having higher incomes and they are real. Any increase in income for anyone, when looked on in isolation is a good thing: good for them (they get to do more of the things they value) and good for the people they pay to receive those things.

    But there are costs. If wages increase without any increase in productivity, profits must, by definition, fall. So the increase in income of the low paid is cancelled out by an equal fall in the income of their employers.

    So that means that on the incomes side, the increase is probably a zero sum game.

    But then there will be some employers who will reduce the number of people they employ, rather than face the prospect of lower profits. This is especially the case for small businesses that are on the margin of profitability anyway.

    And we know from experience that some people will be induced into the labour force from education by the prospect of higher wages, but will become unemployed if, as we expect, the net effect of the increase in the minimum wage is a net reduction in employment.

    Now, the key to all this is productivity. If the productivity of low paid workers can increase, then higher wages will not cause profits to fall, they will probably increase, as the productivity gains are shared between workers and employers.

    As the Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman once said, “Productivity isn’t everything, but in the long-run it’s almost everything. A country’s ability to improve its standard of living depends almost entirely on its ability to raise its output per worker”

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  22. Rich Prick (1,319 comments) says:

    Radman, I understand phil did try a form of wealth redistribution, and it didn’t turn out too well in the end.

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  23. nasska (9,471 comments) says:

    Dave Mann @ 8.53am

    Ditto with me. Self employed without employees & every prospective job has to be costed out with the full knowledge that in 90% of the cases the lowest price will be taken. If I make a mistake I’ll be lucky to make the equivalent of the minimum wage.

    Unemployment exists & I reckon it will always be here mostly because some people are simply unemployable. What gets up my nose the most however is having overpaid, cossetted public servants who wouldn’t know the real world if it went up them sitting at desks dreaming up new ways to make my life more difficult. H & S, Resource consents processes……the list goes on & it grows.

    The unemployed are a bargain. Get rid of the real parasites.

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  24. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    it was more morphine-redistribution…actually…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  25. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Dead right Fisiani. Liarbore’s greatest fear is a working population, success breeds success, fuck full employment would be the socialists greatest nightmare. Who needs government when one can provide for ones self and their families, who needs the leftist caring and sharing crap, who needs the programs, who needs the minimum wage, in fact the minimum wage is simply an attempt to stifle employment.

    “Farmers simply pay back debt”, Well James got that one right. The last few years have been particularly tough and climatic conditions have been challenging. Talking to my bank manager a few months ago. Were discussing the way things were. She said that she had had to renegotiate overdraft limits for 85% of her clients and this was a pretty general fugue for the bank when it came to farm accounts. So at the moment farm returns are great but the country should not expect a windfall and the tax take will be nowhere near what the government would wish.

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  26. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Philip,

    You assume I am “rich”. That just further shows your ignorance (or your distorted view of reality and what defines being rich.)

    It would seem Benny Hill was only partly right – When you assume, you make an ass out of u, but not me

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  27. Caleb (465 comments) says:

    and the extra cost to production would eat into any wage increase,
    especially fresh food and produce.
    but, lets drop gst on food.
    we’ll have to raise the top tax rate….

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  28. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    dime, you really are a dope. Where did I say the unemployment rate should go up? I didn’t. Idiot.

    rich prick, “your wealth”? (There is so much wrong with that view, in so many ways). At the moment the minimum wage workers are transferring some of their wealth to you by way of an unreasonably low minimum wage.

    bhudson, sure there would be a period where some jobs are lost and the new settings graunch into place, as I said, but in the big picture (can you see it?) the general employment situation in NZ would settle back to its normal position (which under National is 7% unemployment unfortunately) and with a more wealthy bottom sector of the economy. And as philu points out that is entirely good.

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  29. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    @vto – your claim might make sense if it was based on improving wage growth to low-wage workers- based on productivity increases. It doesn’t make sense because you propose an increase in minimum-wage- something entirely separate to an increase in productivity. Experience simply shows that this is a brutally effective way to increase unemployment amongst the unskilled and young.

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  30. Rich Prick (1,319 comments) says:

    OK vto, where do I send the cheque, or will you come and “collect” your share?

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  31. John Ansell (861 comments) says:

    vto: You decry those who decry the minimum wage.

    I think you’ll find we agree that raising the minimum wage to $15 (and why stop there?) will be great for those in jobs.

    It will certainly not make it easier for those people to keep those jobs, because it will be harder for their bosses to withstand the compulsory extra payload.

    Now let’s look at what it will do for those out of work.

    It will be like kicking away the first rung of the employment ladder.

    It will be like the state saying, “We won’t allow you to accept a job for $12 an hour (which, being inexperienced, you’d probably be quite happy with). Instead, the state commands you to go on the dole for $4.50 an hour.”

    By steering an unemployed person towards the dole, the state is saying to that person, “If you want more money, join a gang and deal drugs, or get pregnant and we’ll pay you to have kids – even though you’re still a kid.”

    A lot of things in life are the opposite of what they seem, vto. The minimum wage seems like a great idea, but it causes higher unemployment everywhere it’s tried.

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  32. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    georgebowling, you are right it is a zero-sum game. It is a form of wealth redistribution. A short fatter pyramid rather than a tall pointy one is the aim. That is what I suggest. Raising productivity is another issue.

    I don’t understand why, putting aside some implementation difficulties, people don’t see it as a good thing? Why is it not good (putting aside implementation difficulties)?

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  33. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Oh, the horrors of people paying off debt.

    Now, what was it that got us into this problem in the first place? Oh, yea – too much debt.

    The recession will end when debt is back to reasonable levels, and those people have extra money to expand their businesses.

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  34. Sonny Blount (1,829 comments) says:

    Current minimum wage gives $573.75 for a 45 hour week (45×12.75). That is fine for people to get by on, if a person desires to improve their standard of living from what thay provides then they should be willing to ask their employer for it, not to force them to legally. Or even if they simply work a 55 hour week then they would have $701.25 per week, who is complaining about that? Theres enough for saving from that.

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  35. Sonny Blount (1,829 comments) says:

    # vto (874) Says:
    February 4th, 2011 at 9:21 am

    georgebowling, you are right it is a zero-sum game. It is a form of wealth redistribution. A short fatter pyramid rather than a tall pointy one is the aim. That is what I suggest. Raising productivity is another issue.

    I don’t understand why, putting aside some implementation difficulties, people don’t see it as a good thing? Why is it not good (putting aside implementation difficulties)?

    Because freedom and free markets outperform distorted markets. Resources are allocated better and peoples needs are responded to better.

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  36. decanker (220 comments) says:

    Minimum wage this, minimum wage that, why no talk of a maximum wage?

    This isn’t a completely formed idea, but what about indexing the minimum wage to inflation and indexing the maximum wage of a company to the minimum wage they offer, say at 20x, or even 40x, the company’s minimum wage?

    Does/did France do something like this?

    Could it work (technically, not ideologically)?

    Try and avoid the “that’ll just drive the most talented people out of NZ” — There are plenty of kiwi’s experienced, talented and driven enough to do a $5m p/a job for $1.5m p/a.

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  37. Inventory2 (9,786 comments) says:

    @ Phil U – drop the faux outrage Phil. You have chosen not to be a member of the workforce, so wages are irrelevant as far as you are concerned.

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  38. MT_Tinman (2,790 comments) says:

    Mr Reid’s statement certainly adds credibility to my observation that Unions and the political party they own and control no longer identify themselves with working men but non-working men i.e. beneficiaries, union officials and “teachers”.

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  39. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    georgebowling,

    Productivity – very true, except for a couple of points I would suggest:

    1. Increased profits does not automatically mean increased wages, although increased productivity could well yield increased employment as businesses seek to maximize the productivity gains. (if that then leads to a skills or general labour shortage then the increase in wages will become ‘automatic’ (in a sense.)

    2. Productivity increases demand addressable markets – businesses require markets for the additional units of goods and services. For NZ that means export markets as we are simply too small to generate sustainable growth through domestic consumption – the local ‘money-go-round’ is simply too small. (domestic consumption, and therefore domestic focused businesses, can achieve sustainable growth off the back of export growth bringing new money into the economy.)

    So what we really need to help vto is increased export market access coupled with increases in productivity. With that we can achieve genuine growth across the economy, helping to raise wage rates as well as ewducin unemployment and providing business owners/investors with a return on their capital which is required in order to had an economy in the first place.

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  40. reversespin (65 comments) says:

    I used to think that the link between high minimum wages and unemployment was widely acknowledged and understood, across the spectrum. After all, a LOT of people do at least one year of Economics at high school, right? Maybe a few idiots on the left might not get the message, but not enough to matter.

    Now I am not so sure…………….

    On the TV news last night (I know, I know, why do I bother) the left was actually proposing that an increase to $15/hour would INCREASE employment!!! They are probably aware that it won’t, but are happy to trot it out as the party line. Thus they get an appealing double-whammy for the hard-of-thinking: Higher wages and more jobs!!!

    It is actually quite disingenuous, they are basically preying on the working poor and their ignorance. They should be ashamed.

    Good employers and good businesses will pay higher than the minimum wage, anyway. I can speak from experience. You have to back yourself and back your employees, that the cost of paying higher than the minimum wage will be offset by good people, doing good work, for a fair wage. It should only be a safety-net and insurance for society against the fraction of employers who would otherwise take the piss.

    Spread the word, far and wide…………..Increased minimum wage = less jobs (also = higher inflation, but that is a different post)

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  41. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    “philu on Idiocy”

    Yesterday it was “Redbaiter on Repugnant”.

    Is this deliberate DPF?

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  42. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    ewducin = strange iPhone keypad language for “reducing”

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  43. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    reversespin

    You raise an interesting point. Are those advocating the increase in employment by increasing the minimum wage also advocating an increase in GST, promoting an increase in rents and house prices and a fruit and vege tax?

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  44. KiwiGreg (3,128 comments) says:

    “georgebowling, you are right it is a zero-sum game. It is a form of wealth redistribution. A short fatter pyramid rather than a tall pointy one is the aim. That is what I suggest. Raising productivity is another issue.”

    Actually you end up with a (much) smaller pyramid. Try North Korea versus South Korea for instance.

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  45. reversespin (65 comments) says:

    @thedavincimode

    Uummmmmmmmmmmm……..Not sure, I don’t think so.

    I was refereing to Labour and the Union as the ones that propose that an increased minimum will increase employment (obviously not true).

    I am not aware of anyone on the spectrum advocating an increase in GST. Who is promoting an increase in rents and house prices? Labour wants to REDUCE G.S.T. on fruit and vege………..

    Am I missing something? What are you talking about?

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  46. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Fuck the farmers, they should hold to what they rant, no help for any bastard.
    Get a bit of dampness on the paddocks too fucking bad ,do not expect other taxpayers to give you aid, you should get what the average small business gets in the way of aid, fuck all.
    Too many bloody farmers boast how they have their staff on a salary which works out to $7hr for the hours worked.

    Christ some of you right wingers are fucking dumb, you need to raise productivity so do you get more training for your staff and pay them more as well as putting more capital in, do you fuck, you whine that a bag a rice a week would be too high a price to pay.
    Dumb fucks have not worked it out ,productive workers make you more money,but you lot whine that the underpaid and untrained are not up to the job, instead of fixing the problem of training and pay.

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  47. ciaron (1,157 comments) says:

    @ Rick prick: bugger that, where’s my share of vto’s pay check?

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  48. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    vto – my bad, typed fast as i am working.

    most of the losers from school now actually work, in shitty, menial, fucked jobs.

    my point was – be a loser and slack off through your 20′s, fine. but dont expect to then get propped up from people like me later in life.

    if youre on minimum wage – upskill! it should be a stepping stone.

    if not, bad luck. stay poor and rent a slum off some rich prick like myself. serve me drinks, clean my house, serve my kids drinks etc etc

    we need poor service people anyway :)

    i suspect vto, being a unionist, you need em more though.

    and as for the name calling – come back to me when youve resevolved your sexual/physical abuse issues from the past and youve lost your lisp. fuckin victim lefty

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  49. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Philip,

    You assume I am “rich”…”

    oh dear…!..a poor-rightie…!

    ..is there anything sadder/more confused/more desperate….?

    ..purely aspirational at this stage..?

    ..is it…?..

    a wannabe the-working-class-can-now-kiss-my-arse…i’ve-got-the-bosses-job-at-last..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  50. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    grumpy – agree about farmers. greedy assholes most of em.

    personally, we pay well over min wage, but i would hate to see them raise it. youve seen what happens when the youth rate was abolished. it would just lead to unemployment.

    whats with the left? why punish the people who take risks, work their asses off and actually make a profit? i dont see many employees putting in when the company they work for loses money.

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  51. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..i dont see many employees putting in when the company they work for loses money…”

    well dime..maybe if they got to share in the those profits…?

    ..(as in co-op-ownership/profit-share…?)

    (and as inv. 2 has no womb…he will not be allowed to opine on reproduction-issues…)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  52. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    Oh yes yes yes, you all raise all the usual obstacles and problems. But you miss the point. Try being positive and aspirational. Try aiming higher. That’s the usual right wing mantra – well apply it to others too.

    Get the minimum wage workers (I am nopt talking about dole bludgers or slackers in their 20s or 50s or anyone else) wealth up. Make the pyramid shorter and fatter. Tall and skinny ones topple over.

    It is simply better, which you all acknowledge. But you get caught up in the how. As Key says… get aspirational.

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  53. cabbage (454 comments) says:

    Chirst. The laziness and selfishness thats permeating this thread is beyond belief. The message that is being purveyed my a particular faction in here is quite simply: I’m lazy, but i deserve more of YOUR money just for being me and choosing to be a part of the same society.

    Fuckin lazy assed pricks.

    Don’t like being unemployed? Do what I did. Get a Job.

    Don’t like being payed shit? Do what I did. Get a better Job.

    Still not happy with your income? Do what I did, Find a better Job.

    Its actually not that hard to go from unemployed to a 6 figure income in a couple of years. Just takes a bit of drive.

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  54. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    “..is there anything sadder/more confused/more desperate….?”

    Well there’s you for one Phil

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  55. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    “a wannabe the-working-class-can-now-kiss-my-arse…i’ve-got-the-bosses-job-at-last”

    There you go Big Magpie, o gatherer of shiney bits. You plucked up the courage to actually type “job”. Now you just have to flap off and apply for one!

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  56. k.jones (210 comments) says:

    Why didnt you choose this sentence DPF from the same article :

    “TD Securities research head Annette Beacher said the jobless figure added weight to her view that New Zealand faced another recession.”

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  57. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    so..dime..and others..why not give yr employees a slice of the profit-pie….?

    ..see their comittment/productivity soar..

    …to a much bigger pie..

    ..everyone grows together…

    ..and you become a hero..

    ..what’s not to love about all that..?

    ..it’s a no-brainer…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  58. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    for what its worth (not much) I aint a lefty (though thending that way as the nats go on), or a unionist or an employee. Been doing my own business last 15-20 years with turnover a few tens of millions last 10 years. So there.

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  59. tom hunter (3,986 comments) says:

    If the situation existed where the minimum wage was in fact quite a chunk higher it would be fantastic for the country. The relative position of the lowest paid on New Zealand’s wealth spectrum would be restored to where it used to be. The entire country would benefit. The wealth of the nation would be spread more evenly between the people of the nation. (and of course all manner of social ills would improve).

    I’ve not noticed all manner of social ills improving since the last minimum wage increase, probably because the effect on the labour market is rather like the Laffer effect for higher taxes. vto is almost certainly one of those people who thinks that because an increase in tax from 30% to 40% brings in “X” revenue, a tax increase from 40% to 50% will bring in the same amount or even more.

    In other words, markets adjust, in this case by hiring fewer minimum wage workers and creating fewer minimum wage jobs. So whatever wealth increase occurs via increased minimum wage for those so employed, there will be a loss of wealth for those who either get dumped or never get hired in the first place. As a specific example, social ills might be reduced if our youth unemployment was lower – but vto would never go for reducing those either.

    But of course there would be period of adjustment while current settings graunched into the new settings.

    As two actual employers on this thread have pointed out, they have adjusted to the last setting of minimum wage increase – by having a smaller staff than they otherwise would – and they will adjust again if you get your way. There were changes during the “adjustment” period, with the result that society as a whole is back where it started with the same problems of poverty and “social ills”, and as it will be if when you do this again (because you never learn from experience).

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  60. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    touche ..hudson..

    but seriously..?

    a poor rightie…?

    w.t.f. are you thinking…?

    ..are you hoping to marry yrslf up the slippery-pole..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  61. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    “so..dime..and others..why not give yr employees a slice of the profit-pie….”

    Notice the parasitic use of the word ‘give’ by the chief parasite Philip Ure.

    If the employees want a slice of the pie Phool then they can buy into the company, actually I like that idea, “sorry staff, we had a bad week, no wages for you lot this week”

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  62. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    “..i dont see many employees putting in when the company they work for loses money…”

    “well dime..maybe if they got to share in the those profits…?”

    Ah, but if the company is losing money (been there, done that and earned far far less than any of my employees – and in fact at the start of the business I earned almost nothing for the first few months as we got established but of course paid our staff well) then there’s no profit to share.

    “..(as in co-op-ownership/profit-share…?)”

    Now you’re on to something. Those employees are quite welcome to go off and create their own co-op ownership business. Then they can take the risks of running a business. They never do though, do they?

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  63. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..I’ve not noticed all manner of social ills improving since the last minimum wage increase,..”

    possibly because that increase was 50 cents…?

    ..could that have something to do with it..?

    ..too little..too late..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  64. RichardX (288 comments) says:

    I don’t know why I an responding to the phool but I have enjoyed participating in profit sharing as both an employer and employee. There is a caveat though, as a business owner I have far more at risk. I am happy to give employees a share of the profit but am limited in that if there is no profit they still expect to get paid whereas I know I won’t.
    Risk vs reward is something you don’t appear to understand and is one of the reasons your hobby will never make money for you. If it fails (and by all accounts it is a failure) you lose nothing. You still get funded by the taxpayer so there is no incentive for you to improve your product to attract a bigger audience or even derive any form of income from it.

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  65. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    so..to summarise….you righties think that our low-wage/high wealth-gap/record child poverty country/economy shouldn’t be changed..

    ..you all want just more of the same..?

    ..or even better…to make those wages lower…that wealth-gap wider…and even more children raised/living in poverty…?

    ..this is your vision for new zealand…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  66. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    gee..richard x..

    more assumptions there than i have the time/energy to bother to answer/riposte…

    …eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  67. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Phil,

    What basis of comparison do you use for claiming NZ wage rates are low? China? South America? Eastern Europe?

    For what it’s worth, i didn’t claim to be poor either – although that too, is relative

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  68. RichardX (288 comments) says:

    PhiU using the Redbaiter school of debate
    You have more time than anyone else here due to your lifestyle choices and as you are so fond of telling us all, your other lifestyle choices embue you with more energy than most.

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  69. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..The minimum wage seems like a great idea, but it causes higher unemployment everywhere it’s tried…”

    so..ansell..got any links/evidence to back up that whopper..?

    ..or are we just orifice-plucking here…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  70. beautox (406 comments) says:

    I wish the govt *would* put up the min wage to something like $30 to prove once and for all to idiots like philu how utterly misguided their stupid ideas are. Then, after it’s been shown to cause havoc they can repeal all min wage laws.

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  71. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..What basis of comparison do you use for claiming NZ wage rates are low?..”

    um..!..maybe the country we used to do better than..?..australia…?

    (that country where the union movement ..in the 80′s …hadn’t traded their testicles for the baubles of office/knighthoods/seats on boards..?

    ..or was it just fear..?)

    ..as just one example of how wrong our boots-on-the-back-of-workers-knecks direction has been/is…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  72. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    “so..to summarise….you righties think that our low-wage/high wealth-gap/record child poverty country/economy shouldn’t be changed..”

    As a “righty” I will respond.

    Our “low-wage/high wealth-gap” society is the direct result of socialist governments telling its people that they need not worry about taking personal responsibility. The underlying message has always been “we will look after you”.
    Those who have elected to be lazy bastards all their life and now find themselves with less than they would like need to suck it up, the world and the tax payers of NZ do not owe you a living.

    “Child poverty”..there is no reason at all why any child in NZ should be hungry or go to school without shoes.

    So there Phool, do we need to change things….nope, we need bludgers and parasites to get off their drug filled backsides.

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  73. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..PhiU using the Redbaiter school of debate..”

    i’m sorry..?..he abuses constantly..and never answers questions put to him..

    ..i usually only abuse in retaliation…and make a judicious attempt to answer the fatuous arguments/lies peddled here…

    ..and..further more… i do not own/live-in an old creased/faded/stained laz-e-boy rocker..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  74. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    “i’m sorry..?..he abuses constantly..and never answers questions put to him..”

    Which is exactly what you do Phool.

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  75. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    phil – not all staff members can increase the profit of a company. We pay well and are generally a happy group. we pay bonuses but dont peg them to profit.

    not all “bosses” are assholes. infact, most arent.

    when you see a self made man you shouldnt be envious and think – gimme gimme gimme, ya should think – well done dude. take inspiration from it.

    anyone can make it in this country. i have no doubt you could carve out a pretty good living if you so desired phil.

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  76. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Our “low-wage/high wealth-gap” society is the direct result of socialist governments telling its people that they need not worry about taking personal responsibility…”

    um..no..it’s a result of the decades-long campaign/class-war against workers…

    ..a campaign aided and abetted by the petain-ing of our union movement….

    ..a campaign the aussie unions said ‘no yr fucken not!’ to…

    ..that and massive tax cuts/wealth-transfers to the elites/rich…

    ..which has brought us to now….

    “..“Child poverty”..there is no reason at all why any child in NZ should be hungry or go to school without shoes…”

    except perhaps..for the one in five living in poverty…?

    ..(are you really that out of touch..?..

    ..do you really care that little..?)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  77. KiwiGreg (3,128 comments) says:

    “It is simply better, which you all acknowledge”

    You are wrong.

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  78. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    what exactly do you want answered there bruv..?…

    ..happy to oblige…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  79. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..i have no doubt you could carve out a pretty good living if you so desired phil…”

    that is what i am doing/attempting with the news-aggregation model i am running..

    ..it;s called http://whoar.co.nz/

    didn’tyaknow…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  80. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    Phool

    If the impossible ever happened and you did sell your site (that nobody visits) for a tidy sum do you think that the government should be entitled to claw back every penny that you have bludged from the tax payer in the last 20 years?

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  81. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    phil – fair enough! ya probably dont care but i thought id pass on some feedback about your blog… the back ground is a bit bright. makes it hard to read (insert jokes here, im sure). compare your site to kiwiblog, the background here is way kinder on the eyes.

    slightly longer paragrahps and less …. would also help. although you write a lot better there than you do here. the … style is horrible.

    also, would ad’s help generate some revenue? :P

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  82. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    dime..yes..fair comment..i can’t afford tech-support….there are a few changes i wd make…

    ..and my writing there is prefaced by comment@whoar..

    ..all else is teaser-paragraphs for the stories/links i have found…

    ..yes..ads would help..

    ..that is a door i hope to prise open in the reasonably near future…

    ..(cool logo tho’..!..eh..?..chris knox did it for me…some say it looks like me…(i dunno about that..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  83. KevinH (1,127 comments) says:

    An across the board increase of the minimum wage to $15 ph as recommended by the NDU demonstrates the complete lack of economics knowledge present in the unions. The old plus 30% mentality in determining value is the reason why N.Z. went belly up in the 80′s.
    Presently the unemployment rate for teens is a staggering 20% , this figure would be further exacerbated by an increase in labour costs, at $15 ph the unemployment rate would blow out to over 50%. Young people would not be able to compete with seniors on the same rate who possessed knowledge and skills.
    The answer to teen unemployment is in youth rates paid according to your age and skill level. The current minimum wage of $12.50 ph is a genuine and real barrier to employers taking on young people with no skills.
    The Nats will have to look at Roger Douglas’ youth rate idea’s, the sooner the better.

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  84. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    phil – isnt there some leftie student out there that could help you for free? :)

    what about google ads? adsense or something? isnt that an easy thing to integrate? thats gotta be some sorta scam you can latch onto!

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  85. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    my main problem dime is that i am a luddite…

    ..i will happily write/play with words all day long…

    ..but the machinery/tech side of things terrifies me…

    ..that and ads is where i need help..

    ..i can take care of everything else…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  86. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    Given the type of site it is and presumably low level of traffic (comparing Alexa ranking with some of my similarly ranked sites gives me some sort of indication of the number of visitors his site gets per day), he isn’t going to make much/any money even with Adsense. I know because that’s how I make half my money – from selling various forms of advertising (and in some cases a share of products sales) on my various websites.

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  87. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    ch123 – maybe you should help phil out :) he may cut you in on some of the action!

    phil – why dont you ask for help on the standard?? or will they ban you for that? cant have someone helping themselves lol

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  88. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..phil – isnt there some leftie student out there that could help you for free? :)..”

    lefties/greens dislike me even more than you lot..

    …aside from personality-defects….it’s the vegan thing..

    (most find it too challenging/confronting…veganism now is where vegetarianism was 20 yrs ago..

    …ridiculed and reviled…)

    ..as an example..you would have heard martyn bradbury ..and some old lefty-comedian…gary someone…scoffing at the very idea on nat-rad yesterday…

    ..and the green mp’s just love it when i point out to them that claiming to be ‘green’…and being a carnivore..

    ..is a benchmark-setting oxymoron…

    ..so..y’know…!

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  89. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Amazon has free ads, just link one of their products, a piss of piss, I could do it, just follow the prompts.

    (No one has ever clicked one of the ads either but thats by the by) , plenty fo scope for loading any site with ads for free

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  90. dime (8,742 comments) says:

    youre a vegan? what do you do for protein? tofu?? you must be a skinny bastard lol

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  91. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    also..a small amount of mainstream advertising of the site wd help..

    ..’cos what i do is provide a service many want….an edited best-of of the days media/news..

    ..with a strong focus on good writing…

    ..and approx thirty new/fresh stories each and every day…

    ..(plus an archive/search engine stretching back five + years…)

    ..i think the boomers esp. but not only..will like what i do..

    and like i say..look at the competition…the herald…?..stuff…?

    ..on any day..look at their limited/narrow take…and then my wide-screen take..

    (and um..!..re alexa..isn’t that sonewhere you have to sign up to them before they ‘rate’ you..?

    ..i could be wrong..i’ve never placed that much faith in that model..)

    and confirmation my model is a goer is only confirmed by the competition about to start up ..based in dunedin..

    http://whoar.co.nz/2011/website-delivers-filtered-news-for-a-fee-here-is-a-website-offering-another-version-of-what-whoar-doesbut-whoar-does-it-betterehand-is-free/

    they have 4 mill backing….and will have six editors/writers…

    ..but i think what the important factor in that model is..is that editor/writer….

    ..and their selections…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  92. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..youre a vegan? ..”

    vegan ten yrs +..and vegetarian before that…

    ..and like all vegans..looking good…!

    ..eh..?

    (see logo…)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  93. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    “(and um..!..re alexa..isn’t that sonewhere you have to sign up to them before they ‘rate’ you..?”

    No, you don’t need to sign up. Alexa has a toolbar that for some reason a lot of people install. It reports back to Alexa the sites people visit and it “ranks” sites based on this traffic – so a rank based on a sample of users. Obviously it’s a sample only so is not entirely accurate, but generally speaking a site with an Alexa rank of say 1 million will have roughly the same number of visitors that another site with an Alexa rank of 1 million has. Because I administer a wide range of sites I can usually work out roughly how many visitors per day a site gets.

    I don’t wish to knock your efforts, but what you are doing is hardly unique.

    Having said all that, and given my previous comments that you’re not likely to make money from ads, you won’t know until you try. The easiest way is to sign up for an Adsense account and put ads in your site and see how you go from there. In the content area always gets the best click-though and I’ve found image ads in the 300×250 size work remarkably well. You are best to choose image/text ads as depending on the site content there may not always be image ads available.

    Assuming you can edit the page templates yourself, it should be pretty easy to do. As someone else mentioned, you could always get a student or someone like that to help you out.

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  94. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    The idea that youth rates for a lad under eighteen should be compulsory is fucking dumb, if you have a lad who is capable and doing a man’s job he should be paid the right rate.
    Profit share, the less staff you have(fire any prick wearing a tie) the more profits there are for you and the remaining productive staff, which of course does not apply to productive types who are charged out by the hour, but do you need those so called office staff in such numbers, what do they do to help the bottom line ?

    Same as sick pay, go off sick on Friday well and good, you will be paid, but the others will do your share.
    So don’t take too many bloody Fridays off or the group you work with will not want you.

    The argument about Aussies being more productive, just shut their ore and coal exports down to see how they get on.
    Kiwis when they go to Aus are suddenly more productive, bullshit, they may be operating gear that is larger, faster etc etc etc but more productive over there on a personal level they are not.

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  95. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    Phool

    I have no issues with you being a Vegan, however, it does worry me off that you feed your dogs a Vegan diet.

    I take it you feed them vitamins to make up for the lack of meat?

    If not then that is bordering on animal abuse.

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  96. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    “The idea that youth rates for a lad under eighteen should be compulsory is fucking dumb, if you have a lad who is capable and doing a man’s job he should be paid the right rate.”

    Who said youth rates should be *compulsory* for youth?

    “those so called office staff”

    You mean the people who take care of the payroll (i.e. actually pay the productive staff), do the accounting (like sending out invoices so the staff can be paid, and follow up slow payers), and the ones who actually find work for the productive staff? Bit hard for a business to function without people in those roles.

    “So don’t take too many bloody Fridays off or the group you work with will not want you.”

    Hmm yes but under current employment laws it’s very difficult to get rid of someone, even if you did have a profit share set up.

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  97. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    chrs 4 the advice..

    “..I don’t wish to knock your efforts, but what you are doing is hardly unique…”

    um..cd u point me at a couple of other examples…?

    ..esp with the amount of fresh content..every day…

    ..and esp. with that wide-content grab..?…

    ..huffington post is all i can think of…

    i wd like to see some others..

    ..chrs..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  98. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    (fire any prick wearing a tie)

    One of those “pricks wearing a tie” is probably your sales manager, along with his sales team – without them, your company will be selling very little stock – therefore not making the revenue targets required to either make a profit or even retain the current staff.

    but do you need those so called office staff in such numbers, what do they do to help the bottom line ?

    Are you suggesting they fire all accounts staff as well?

    How will the bills get paid?
    How will the staff get paid?
    How will the company pay its tax?
    How will the company know what tax it is required to pay?
    How will the company know it is collected all monies from the goods sold?

    Way to go Hori – you’ve just described how to send a business down the toilet in two easy steps….

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  99. Inventory2 (9,786 comments) says:

    Philip Ure said

    “i’m sorry..?..he abuses constantly..and never answers questions put to him..”

    Whilst in the meantime Phil, you still haven’t confirmed whether or not you were lying when you said you accessed the internet at the library.

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  100. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    phil – try http://news.google.com/

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  101. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..it does worry me off that you feed your dogs a Vegan diet..”

    here you are bruv…i’ve already answered all those questions….

    http://whoar.co.nz/?s=dogs+vegan

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  102. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    Actually having a look through your blog now at one of those vegan dogs posts, some of the stuff you are posting is now behind a paywall so you’re republishing in some cases large chunks of copyrighted material. I suspect this would fall foul of the Google Adsense terms and conditions, and a number of other advertising publishers too.

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  103. RightNow (6,334 comments) says:

    I was going to say you guys have taken this thread way off topic, then I looked again at the title of the post. Carry on

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  104. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Bevan jeez you tie wearing types are bloody sensitive are you not ?
    The sales manager along with his sales team who no doubt need to have boozy lunches on Fridays to discuss tactics and strategy for the on coming battle.

    If your product or service is that good do you need all those sales types ?

    ch123 that is the trouble with you liberals :-) you believe that employment law is a wall, if the other staff in the team no longer want the bugger who takes too many Fridays off there is no reason he cannot be moved in the company to some absolutely boring position.

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  105. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    Phool

    There is not a chance in hell that I am going to read anything written on your site, trying to do so makes my eyes bleed.

    You could just tell me, do you feed your dogs vitamins to make up for their deficient diet?

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  106. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Bevan accounting staff etc etc etc, now that is one thing in NZ and Aus and no doubt other countries that gives me the absolute shits, this so called twentieth of the following month which to bloody often was taken to the next month before payment.
    A debt is accrued as soon as the job, service etc is done, so there is no bloody reason why payments can not be made on a weekly basis.
    Too many good companies in NZ found themselves in the crapper because some arsehole had not bothered paying in time

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  107. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    @grumpyoldhori I’m not a liberal. Or were you just taking the piss with that smiley ;)

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  108. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    “A debt is accrued as soon as the job, service etc is done, so there is no bloody reason why payments can not be made on a weekly basis.”

    That would be nice, but you still need accounting people to invoice them, process payments, do the payroll etc etc regardless of when the money gets paid. I am self-employed in a business of one so have to do all that stuff myself. It’s not particularly time consuming but still needs to be done and I cannot be productive while doing it, and see no need to pay someone else to do it.

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  109. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    If your product or service is that good do you need all those sales types ?

    Which has just shown your complete lack of knowledge in how to run a business that supplies a product.

    Bevan accounting staff etc etc etc, now that is one thing in NZ and Aus and no doubt other countries that gives me the absolute shits, this so called twentieth of the following month which to bloody often was taken to the next month before payment.

    Sale and payment terms are typically negotiated in the sales agreements, not all have terms of payment on the 20th, or within 4 weeks. A majority I have found states payment within 7 days.

    But again, my questions:
    How will the bills get paid?
    How will the staff get paid?
    How will the company pay its tax?
    How will the company know what tax it is required to pay?
    How will the company know it is collected all monies from the goods sold?

    Too many good companies in NZ found themselves in the crapper because some arsehole had not bothered paying in time

    Then those companies should use a debt collection agency to collect the outstanding monies from the debtor, they should have a sales agreement that defines when payment would be made, and in that agreement it should cover what happens in the event of non-payment within the agreed time frame.

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  110. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    ch123..you said that what i was doing was not unique..

    ..i repeat..that is quite the challenge to my model…

    …so…cd u plse point me at a couple of the others..

    …thank you…

    ..and..um..!..you’d be talking times..re copyrighted material..?

    cos i have always steered well clear of pay-walled-material…

    (..for that copyright reason…)

    …and is that vegan dog archive all you have looked at..?

    (and apologies to farrar for off-thread…my only defense is that i have been answering some of the multitudes of questions/challenges i face each day..)

    and bruv..

    i’ve given you these answers..multiple-times…

    yr yapping-dog repititions must be as much a pain in the arse for others..

    ..go and read the answers to yr questions..

    …or just shut the fuck up ..eh..?

    …you are now officially on ignore-list….eh..?

    ..so you can ask again until you are fucken blue in the face..eh..?

    ..goodnight irene..!

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  111. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    @phil. This is the last time I’ll comment about this off topic topic. All you appear to do on your site is copy an extract of some content from another news site and then link to it. There are probably thousands of websites that do exactly that (I subscribe to a number of tech sites that do exactly that, such as http://www.pixel2life.com/ and http://www.dzone.com/ ). I already pointed you at http://news.google.com/ . Sure, it’s automatic whereas I assume yours is manual and there’s no commenting ability at Google, but they do more or less the same thing. I even did something along your lines once for tech stuff but it was too time consuming and didn’t generate any money so I moved on to other projects.

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  112. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    ch123..i see you referenced google-news..?

    ..that’s it..?

    i wd also submit that whoar is a totally different beast to google….

    ..and that is not really a personalised-take..as whoar is…

    ..it is all just computer-generated…

    …has no soul/heart/personality…

    ..so..i am reassured by yr example…

    …that whoar is indeed unique..

    ..do you have any other examples..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  113. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    Phool

    You have never replied to that question, given that I can only assume that you are an animal abuser, one who forces his Vegan diet on animals who are not designed to live on vegetables.

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  114. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    Phil,

    If you are using Australia to compare our wage rates, what basis do you use to determine that Australian rates are low (or ‘nearly low’.)

    Your benchmark only shows that our rates may be lower than Australia – that doesn’t necessarily mean they are low. Indeed, if Australian rates are actually quite high, then so would ours be (using your benchmark.)

    So perhaps NZ is already a high wage economy and we don’t need to up the minimum rate at all…

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  115. ch123 (460 comments) says:

    You obviously ignored the other two sites I posted, although those are somewhat different from yours as they are community efforts. Soul/heart/personality? You copy and paste and link to the original. No soul/heart/personality there. But anyway, I have actual work to do so that’s enough from me for now.

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  116. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..All you appear to do on your site is copy an extract of some content from another news site and then link to it…”

    yes..that is what whoar/huffington post do….(a generalist-view of the planet…incorporating hard news..but also reviews/lighter stuff etc..)

    ..and i am not talking about a narrow specialised-field topic..as you tried/failed..

    ..i am talking a generalist-model..where almost anyone will find items to interest them…

    (once again..huffington post is the only other example i can think of…)

    and if the model sucks so much..is so non-unique..

    ..why the $4 mill/six editors model investment starting up in dunedin..that i linked to above…?

    ..you cd also argue that the new one launched by murdoch is aiming for that generalist/everyman-audience…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  117. big bruv (12,319 comments) says:

    Phool

    You never answered my question re the proceeds of any sale of your website.

    Do you think the government/tax payer would be in its rights to take all of those proceeds and leave you with the balance given the way you have bludged from us for the past 20 odd years?

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  118. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    “that is a door i hope to prise open in the reasonably near future”

    An employer’s door perhaps?

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  119. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    bb

    Actually bb, I recall seeing something about some monks in SE Asia who keep tigers roaming about in the monastary. They feed them on veges; partly because they are non meat eaters themeselves, but also apparantly out of self interest because of a fear that if they feed them meat the tigers might start eyeing up the monks between snacks.

    If spiderman is nearby, he might be able to provide the good oil on this too.

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  120. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    yes..da vinci…

    i plan to be an employer…

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  121. RightNow (6,334 comments) says:

    “..why the $4 mill/six editors model investment starting up in dunedin..that i linked to above…?”

    because ongo is being started up by business people who have a strategy to deliver a product worth paying for and are confident enough in it that they, and investors, are prepared to bet on it with their own money.

    whoar on the other hand is your finger painting efforts paid for by us. On the plus side, it’s cheaper for NZ for you to do that than to be in prison.

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  122. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    and are you one of those ‘business-people’…there..rightnow…?

    ..how good their product is is yet to be decided..eh…?

    ..and putting it behind a paywall..eh…?

    ..whereas my ‘finger-painting’ is free-to-air….

    ..(i’m happy with that point-of-difference…)

    ..and they will have to be doing one hell of a lot of quality-original material…..

    ..to justify that paywall….eh..?

    …that is why i am watching that model with some interest…

    ..’cos i think it will become just another woosh-wireless…

    …a big hole in the ground for deep-pocketed investors to serial-empty their wallets into…

    …i reckon a (specialised) paywall model may work at some time in the future….

    ..but much as i reckon open-source software is the way to go..

    ..so i am certain..the generalist/funded by ads is the model for now…

    ..phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  123. Zarchoff (100 comments) says:

    The whole tax cuts favoured the rich is a red herring.

    If I earn 120k per year (gross) then after the tax cuts I pay 12.23% less tax. Someone on the minimum wage pays 14.42% less tax.

    Now what about working for families. If I have 3 kids (under 13) and earn 120k, I get nothing. On the minimum wage I get $9839 per annum. Which is $5637.40 more than the total PAYE deducted. So someone on the minimum wage (approx $26520) with two kids actually pays no tax at all and gets a $5637.40 tax free gift from the Govt. Make it 6 kids and the same person gets an extra $500 per week tax free!!!

    What the left fail to grasp is that someone has to EARN money in order to pay tax. The tax cuts let that person keep more of the money that he/she has EARNED.

    Taxing the rich more just makes them try to find ways to avoid tax and leaves the poor no better off. How about cutting Govt waste and public spending that delivers low or no return.

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  124. thedavincimode (6,102 comments) says:

    Zarchoff

    Not sure what you mean by “rich” but earning $120k doesn’t make people rich.

    The left don’t fail to grasp anything. They know that skilled people who are unfairly taxed will eventually just fuck overseas as happened in the Klerk era. We swapped high skill and higher earners for low skilled immigrants. The PAYE take tanked to the tune of about $600m before the impact of the global recession was reflected in employment figures. Meanwhile Klerk & Co responded by crowing about net postive migration that in reality reflect imported welfare and tax subsidy beneficiaries.

    They seem to run a fine line between making everyone who can afford to fuck off to do so, but at the same time creating sufficient of an under class to get re-elected.

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  125. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Zarchoff public spending hmm, a letter from a minister to the blokes in Afghanistan asking them to cut down on their use of 25mm, 7.62 and 5.56 ammo, was that one of the cuts you had in mind ?

    Oh, the letter trick has already been done, some sod of a so called public servant in Canberra did that in 68-69, to his surprise a load of crap was dumped on him.

    So why don’t you spell out what the cuts should be, be exact.

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  126. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    ch123 would I take the piss :-)

    Accounting people, etc,etc etc, that is why one has a wife, spending their time sending out invoices stops them going to shoe stores etc.
    But I had to chuckle, just because the invoice is stamped payable by the twentieth as some else mentioned does not mean you will be.

    Use a debt collector, somehow I have a suspicion that some sensitive office types have had their feelings hurt.

    But look at the advantage of Morgan’s tax scheme, accountants would be rattling tins on the corner

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  127. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..On the plus side, it’s cheaper for NZ for you to do that than to be in prison…”

    i think that lessens you more than me….eh…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  128. Dave Mann (1,125 comments) says:

    DPF I honestly think you should consider banning this philU character (or limiting him to one comment per post if you have the technology for this).

    He is simply disruptive. He seems to have his own site and yet he continually hijacks topics here with barely intelligable gibberish and turns them into nonsense.

    Partly it is the fault of those (you know who you are) who buy into phil’s garbage… But I for one just close a page when I see that he is starting his bullshit because I know it will turn the whole thread into crap.

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  129. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    gee dave….!..mann-up..!..eh..?

    ..you miss out on all the fun…eh..?

    ..did you have something you wanted to say…?

    come on..spit it out…

    ..you have our attention…

    ..no..?…just felt like a moan…?

    i don’t remember you ever saying anything before…

    …was it something i said to you…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  130. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    why don’t you just rip me..?..dave…?

    …settle back into that (comforting) half-silence…..

    ..and then you will have all the fun of reading one side of any conversations…

    ..mmm-kay…?

    (aren’t you a funny little man…?..eh…?…)

    ..another rightwinger keen on free-speech….eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  131. DJP6-25 (1,228 comments) says:

    Not idiocy, just applied Socialisim.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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