myschool.edu.au
March 9th, 2011 at 1:49 pm by David FarrarA reader writes:
This site is absolutely brilliant. As parents of four children, this is exactly the kind of information that my wife and I want so that we can make informed choices about where to send our children. It allows you to compare your school (or any school) to statistically similar schools or to other local schools.
Why can’t we have something like this here? And apart from protecting their collective backside, what could NZ teachers possibly have against this information?
It is a great site. National should pledge to create such a site in its second term.
Tags: national standards
March 9th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
What if there is no second term? Australia beckons.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
This is a site promoted and funded by the Australian Government at the behest of the Labor Party .
Vote:It was pushed through by the then education spokesperson Julia Gillard who is now the PM. Many parents find it of great value and it could easily be used in NZ.
March 9th, 2011 at 2:30 pm
Can someone from the left, possibly from a teachers union, please post an explanation as to why it is important for teacher and school performance data to be with-held from the parents?
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
The Australian Education Union (Aussie teachers union) fought tooth and nail against the Myschool database. Staring down the teachers union was then-Minister of Education Gillard’s greatest achievement in Government.
And agreed with DPF’s correspondent in the parent post – myschool.edu.au is invaluable to any parent with a child attending an Australian school. That there’s no NZ equivalent is now a big black mark against the NZ education system to any family considering which side of the Tasman to live on.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 3:03 pm
Slightlyrighty, look at these two schools on the site:
Bondi Beach Public School, Bondi Beach, NSW
Darlington Point Public School, Darlington Point, NSW
Tell us which of these two schools you would send your children to, and explain how that helps to improve the other school.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 3:15 pm
Wasn’t there something like 9 million hits for this website on the first day?
I do know that Ms Gillard had to pay off the ed system in Aus with millions to get this through though.
We’ve got national standards here – which are in schools despite lots of howling from the usual suspects. And as a parent i can tell you that the info i got on my kids in the new reports was a hundred times better than before.
It’s this kind of information that the unions don’t want collated – you can guess why.
I know someone who is a principal – and in the latest Principals’ Federation newsletter the executive had these pathetic words about national standards:
“NZPF supports those schools able to pursue other forms of action to delay, dissemble and dilute this process.”
These guys are so out of touch with parents and the real world that they honestly think Labour will get back in and they can go back to crap reporting to parents and hiding the truth about our kids.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 3:16 pm
RJL, those schools are nowhere near each other, how are they comparable?
Not really the case here i’d argue.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Ironic you post this today, DPF, as I open my newpspaper to read the not-at-all-alarmist headline My School website ‘may harm society’:
Meanwhile the teachers’ unions have come up with a plan so brilliant, they could pin a tale on it and call it the carcass of a roadkill ferret:
So they’re claiming publishing the results, without making any money directly from so doing, but in any publication which happens to make a profit (i.e. is bought a read by the public) breaches the “no commercial use” agreement.
Perhaps rather than sitting round thinking up fiendishly clever ways to avoid scrutiny of their jobs, teachers might like to get on and actually do them.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 3:51 pm
Here we go again…
The numerous postings on this site over the past year or two, regarding education in general and National Standards in particular, have often touched on the dangers of league tables for schools. There may well be many – predominantly right wing – people who feel that league tables serve a useful purpose but there are danger signs galore overseas about them. If you feel they improve education outcomes for students, then please feel free to quote the worked example of any school system in the world that uses league table and show me the real improvement over time in student achievement. I look forward to seeing your examples.
My thoughts:
(1) “Not everything that can be counted counts; and not everything that counts can be counted.” Albert Einstein.
(2) Ian Schagen, an educational statistician from England, currently on contract to the MoE, wrote an opinion piece in the NZ Herald in Dec 2009. He was trying to defend the use of National Standards as an improvement tool for teaching and learning but is strongly anti league tables. Here are his observations:
“The system in England is based on national tests, increased competition and accountability with the annual publication of school league tables based on percentages of students achieving ‘expected’ levels in those tests. The political theory was that it would make schools accountable for their students’ achievements and would allow parental choice to drive school improvement. There is wide agreement in New Zealand that such an approach is flawed. League tables based only on student achievement tell virtually nothing about how well schools are doing.”
(3) John Hattie’s paper on NS concluded with the following:
“National Standards offers the most wonderful opportunities for refreshing and reinvigorating an already top of the world system, but it could be the most disastrous policy formulated if it turns our attention to narrowing (the curriculum), testing, league tables and diverting attention to between school rather than within school differences.”
(4) Julia Gillard’s inspiration for creating NAPLAN (their national tests) and My School was Joel Klein, the former chancellor of the New York City school system. He has now left the job and gone to work for Rupert Murdoch. Klein is an example of the deep seated problem that afflicts the American school system: the obsession with testing, data and the punitive “accountability” regimes that are precisely what Ian Schagen and John Hattie are afraid of.
(5) But they are not the only ones. In the MoE consultation on NS, carried out in 2009, only 3% of school trustees made postive comments on NS. And our biggest concern? Yes, League Tables, cited by 63% of those trustees responding.
(6) Finally, even Mrs Tolley acknowledged the concerns of the education sector in a letter to me, dated 10 March 2010:
“…I am very much aware that aggregated data can potentially be accessed and used in unintended ways and, if used to make simplistic comparisons between schools in the form of league tables, can be misleading and detract from the overarching goal of promoting achievement. I acknowledge the concerns of the education sector about how data from the standards might be used. In response, I am working with these groups to determine the most effective ways of protecting the data and ensuring it is used for postive purposes such as school review and system improvement.”
At time of writing, we have yet to see such “ways” emerge. The concerns of the education sector, including school boards of trustees, remain as strong as ever.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:04 pm
Bill Courtney, the real problem is we have an education system where the schools focus on everything other then trying to lift their achievement. If a school is doing a shit job and student numbers drop then that school must find a way to lift their performance. I as a parent don’t really give a fuck about anything other then what is best for my child and if this helps me identify that then it should be put in place. However your quote “Not everything that can be counted counts; and not everything that counts can be counted.” seems to suggest that schools should just give parents bugger all information at all because its all a bit hard. Well boo fucking hoo.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Bill Courtney
Vote:Very interestings thoughts,
What about the thought that, “When its as plain as the nose on my face.” ?
Why cant you see the logic in that, if we can have systems that will cause a lift in performance
of school teachers, then the whole system will improve.
Why should their unions dumb down teachers to the lowest common denominator ?
March 9th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Cunningham, it is precisely this narrow minded thinking that has destroyed American education. I would suggest you have a think about what really counts and reflect on what Einstein was really saying. But my challenge to you remains: show me how your approach has ever worked – anywhere in the world? By the way, most NZ schools do focus on lifting student achievement and that is why NZ does so well in the international rankings. See the 2009 PISA results from the OECD for the evidence.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
You might wonder if Bill Courtney is a useless school teacher who is petrified of being found out.
Vote:Then he might have to try and get a job in the real world.
Doesnt bear thinking about eh Bill ?
March 9th, 2011 at 4:38 pm
RJL, those schools are nowhere near each other, how are they comparable?
You can compare them with the website.
If you have an argument why they shouldn’t be compared to each other, then that seems to be an argument about why the website that allows you to compare them shouldn’t exist.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:42 pm
“What if there is no second term?”
What if the aliens invade or the loch ness monster starts chashing orca about Wellington harbour?
Just as likely possibilities so we’d best consider them hmm.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Um, have any of you ever assessed the children who do poorly at school?
I’ll tell you what’s happening for those children, and it’s not bad teaching.
It’s a combination of:
low IQ
genetics
poverty
poor nutrition
abuse/neglect
poor attendance
lack of educational support at home / anti-education values
developmental disabilities
These issues tend to occur at a higher rate in lower socio-economic areas. Thus, the schools in those areas will have poorer educational outcome data because their students are inherently poor learners. Penalise the school for that, and you create a neverending cycle of underachievement.
I’m not a teacher and I don’t work in the education sector. These childrens’ issues cross sectors – we encounter the same struggling families in the health, education and justice sectors. I have access to their educational data and I’m frankly not in the least bit surprised, because they perform poorly on all measurable levels – socially, behaviourally, medically, educationally, etc.
A lot of you people are seriously out of touch. I guess that’s the crux of the matter.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Also Bill, talk about the PISA Oecd results. Thats very good. The problem is that as the rich get richer,
Vote:the poor get poorer. IE the top students in NZ , who have good teachers do very well, however
how do you explain that 30% plus leave school unable to read and write to a reasonable degree ?
Why cant we agree to try and lift the standard of teachers ?
What have you got against that. (other than it might put you out of a job)
March 9th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
I like your unflinching optimism, Murray.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
bereal,
Vote:I am not a teacher and never have been. I blog in my own name and made a guest posting on Nat Stds late last year that set out my interest in education. The main flaw with your comment is that these overseas territories do not have systems that cause a lift in performance. In fact, they do precisely the opposite. I repeat the challenge: find me the worked example. Otherwise, all you are doing is quoting political theory – as Ian Schagen stated.
March 9th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
banananpants @ 4.45
Vote:“I’ll tell you whats happening, and its not bad teaching ”
So, we are fucked. Right ? Its nobodies fault. What a loser, negative, hopeless position.
Untill we can distribute the wealth equally we are doomed ? Right ?
How come communism didnt work then ?
March 9th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
So 1 in 5 children leaving school without basic numeracy and literacy skills is world class is it Bill?? My sister sent her children to a school where the teachers went out on the booze with parents and just generally didn’t seem to give a fuck about the children. To them it was just a pay check. It turns out that her child has fallen quite far behind (she moved schools and found this out) but she had NO indication at all from the school about this. Narrow minded thinking by the unions will ensure that this school remains the same way and all the children there will continue to get a substandard education. That’s what ‘your’ approach is doing to our future generations Bill. It makes me sick.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:59 pm
Bill, i dont give a shit whose name you blog in. What has that to do with the content of what you post ?
You find me an example of where lifting the standard of teachers did not result in a lifting of outcomes ?
If we adopted your theories, why not have cretins teaching school ? It would make no difference.
See the insanity of your argument ?
On the General debate a few days ago i spelled out how to lift the whole system in New Zealand.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 4:59 pm
“So 1 in 5 children leaving school without basic numeracy and literacy skills…….”
evidence please
Vote:of course I already know you cant provide it because its a blatant lie
March 9th, 2011 at 5:07 pm
I had a look at several schools on this site too – quite frankly it provides little information at all that would indicate anything worthwhile when choosing a school for my children and nothing at all that indicates the quality of the teaching. I would love someone to tell me what information they would use from this site that would help them determine either of these things.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Hey Bill Courtney,
Check out my effort , General debate. March 2 @ 10.16
Tell me where do i go wrong ?
SSSL, @ 4.59
Vote:Do the maths dear, its one in three in New Zealand. Thats 30%
1 in 5 would be 20 % OR IT WAS when i went to schooL.
Back to school for you dear.
March 9th, 2011 at 5:18 pm
Bill Courtney is the NZEI’s in-house “concerned parent” and is wheeled out at every opportunity by the union. Just google him and NZEI.
Have a look at his comments. A combination of union regurgitation, dodgy surveys, selective quotes and scaremongering.
People like this don’t want me to know how my children are doing at school and it makes me mad as hell.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Bereal, you’re an idiot. Show me the numbers first (Ie. evidence), then we can talk about the maths.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
Thanks for that info bigjeanie,
the question then becomes, other than being a brainwashed, unionist, idealogue, what motivates
a person such as this, he says he is not a teacher, so where is he comming from ?
Is he one of the few who refuse to accept that communism has failed ?
Hey Bill Courtney, what does motivate you ?
We all want to know.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 5:35 pm
shortly shriveled
Vote:Typical of your type, name calling is all you have.
You show me. Nah nah na nah na.
Just pathetic.
Your below contempt darling.
March 9th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
bereal and cunningham,
I think you have both lost the plot. First, I have not put forward anything other than a critique of why league tables are NOT the way forward and suggested you find examples of where you think they work. So far, neither of you has even tried.
Second, it is typical of this debate, over the past year or two, as to how misconstrued the famous “1 in 5″ failing figure has become. Both of you are wrong in what you state about failure rates. I finally extracted this piece from Rodney Hide, after his theatrical performance in the House the other week. This is what he said:
“Around 30% of all students left school in 2009 without a Level 2 qualification[i.e. NCEA L2] the minimum level of competency required to train for a basic apprenticeship. Further, more than 17% of all students do not have an NCEA Level One qualification and the basic literacy and numewracy skills that requires. The 1 in 5 reference reflects these statistics….”
So, can we please be clear that there is no way that 30% of kids leave school unable to read and write! The system is not “in crisis” as the right wing would like us all to believe. These are just arguments they have put forward to justify National Standards.
Now, back to the real discussion: show me where league tables have worked – anywhere.
As John Hattie has argued, and both of you ignored, the focus of NS should be on improving within school performance and NOT on between school differences. Yes, within a school they should be working hard at lifting the quality of teaching and moving all students ahead as much as possible. I have not disagreed with that focus – ever.
But the experience overseas is league tables often lead to narrowing the curriculum (to only those subjects that are measured and reported), teaching to the test, at the expense of depth of learning, and punitive “accountability” based on test scores. That has proven to be a damaging cocktail in countries such as the USA and England. They languish far below NZ in the ranking tables such as PISA.
WHY would we introduce policies that have demonstrably failed overseas, purely in the name of ideology?
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 5:41 pm
kiwigunner:I had a look at several schools on this site too – quite frankly it provides little information at all that would indicate anything worthwhile when choosing a school for my children …
It shows how the student performance compares (in some sort of aggregated test) to the national average in various areas like “reading”. See the links at the bottom (Results in Graphs, etc). The “theory” is that this relates to the teaching quality. Of course, the problem is that it does not.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 5:48 pm
why are kids at private schools, on avg, well above public schools?
over the last twenty years are our standards improving?
are graduates doing better at uni?
are school leavers becoming more interested in academics, careers, are they wanting to further themselves?
i dont believe genetics comes into it at all, homelife and parenting, sure, but we know this and nothing is changing.
Vote:in the private world you make it work, you are dynamic, if you cant make it work someone else will.
your customers are gone.
March 9th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
bananapants suggests:
I’ve attended a low decile school, went on to chair its board, and sent my kids there. I’ve also worked for the Australian Education Union.
I’d agree with your list, bananapants. Where we’d differ is simply that I’d add “and bad teaching” to the end of it. Not in every classroom, of course – but that’s the point. We need a tool to identify bad teachers since Principals and entrenched interest groups won’t.
“League tables” don’t “fix” schools, and for Bill Courtney to ask for evidence of that seems to me – from someone who’s clearly studied the issue – an attempt to derail the debate.
Tables allow for the identification of symptoms, not the disease. The causes of the disease can be, and usually are, many and varied, as bananapants points out. But often they include bad teachers, and occasionally that is the main cause.
A sensible government – and a sensible community – would use the tables to diagnose “sick” schools and the devise a cure. I agree that all too often that “cure” is to let the patient die, by withdrawing your children (understandably… no one wants their kids to be casualties of fixing up a system so it works for the next generation). But that doesn’t excuse not doing it.
If parents and the wider public saw any evidence that hopeless teachers were shown the door – and, conversely, that effort was made to reward and retain the good ones (and don’t say “promotion”, which makes them administrators and takes them out of the classroom), then perhaps they wouldn’t clamour for tables.
But when I was tasked with merging two secondary schools, and thus had justification for looking at the performance of individual teachers (since about 40% had to go) it was obvious that, as in any other endevaour, there were some amazing ones, some crap ones and a majority of average ones. Thankfully, we had an excuse to get rid of the crap ones… other school boards don’t, because the unions defend them and the Principals cover for them.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 6:12 pm
I’ve never liked generalizations Rex like the one you make “Principals cover for them”. This is simply untrue. And why would they? From experience I can tell you that there is nothing worse than being a Principal with a teacher who is not up to scratch. But it is no different from being any other employer and having to manage poor performance. There are procedures to follow (unless you are advocating the right for employers to dismiss at will) that Boards of Trustees (not Principals) like every other employer must follow. I wonder if you are suggesting that teachers should be open to dismissal without the same rights as everyone else? If this is because you think that their job is so important to make this reasonable then what about doctors, nurses, police – take away their rights too?
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 6:28 pm
kiwigunner:
Sadly, the point you make is valid. I say “sadly” because ideally we’d have an economy in which, if you were sacked from a job for which you were unsuitable, you’d walk down the road and get one for which you were – probably for more pay. Not that I’m suggesting we should ever have a “wild west” system of employment law, but in a wrecked economy people tend to cling desperately to jobs for which they are either unsuited from the outset, or have simply given their best and are tired and running on “autopilot”.
I’ve resigned from several positions, mainly in the media, because I’ve felt that I’ve contributed all the new ideas and improvements I can think of and from that point on I’d simply be turning up to earn a paycheque, which would do neither party any good in the long term. But that was at times in hisotry when I could have another job lined up before I left the current one. Not so now, at least not in NZ.
Again in an ideal world, an employer ought to be able to tap such a nonperforming employee on the shoulder and arrange for them to make a gentle exit into another job without, usually, being sued for it. While there’s certainly employment disputes in Australia, the fact the economy is short of labour means there’s a lot less than in NZ, per head, because nonperforming staff usually say “Whatever…” and find another job rather than fight to remain where they’re not wanted.
But alas we must deal with the situation in NZ, where on any “league table” of economics, the people we’ve left in charge would be marked as not having passed Level 1. So as to your propositions:
No, I’m advocating for the unions to not automatically take the view that any teacher identified as not performing is an innocent victim of a bullying Principal and/or an unreasonable Board and/or circumstances beyond their control (such as those enumerated by bananapants) and accept that some are just, simply, crap.
When I say “Principals cover for them” I don’t mean Principals are complicit – not the majority, anyway. But they know that the education unions are the most militant left in NZ and that they’ll be pariahs in their own staffroom if they try to shift a bad teacher. So most shrink from initiating the process.
I wish!! I’d have initiated the procedure on half a dozen teachers (out of 60 or so) if I could have. The Ministry signs the cheques, the Principal is the employer, and the Board gets no say as to what teaching staff are hired, fired, paid, promoted, demoted or anything else.
Again… if the existing system for identifying, dealing with and, if necessary, sacking poorly performing teachers worked, fine. It doesn’t. So a poor result on a “MySchools” website, used and interpreted properly acts as a flag to the community suggesting its school needs further investigation.
The problem arises when – as is the case in Australia and will no doubt be in NZ – having identified an ailing school, there’s no ambulance to call, let alone a hospital.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Bill Courtney (32) Says:
March 9th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Cunningham, it is precisely this narrow minded thinking that has destroyed American education. I would suggest you have a think about what really counts and reflect on what Einstein was really saying. But my challenge to you remains: show me how your approach has ever worked – anywhere in the world? By the way, most NZ schools do focus on lifting student achievement and that is why NZ does so well in the international rankings. See the 2009 PISA results from the OECD for the evidence.
bereal (607) Says:
March 9th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
You might wonder if Bill Courtney is a useless school teacher who is petrified of being found out.
Then he might have to try and get a job in the real world.
Doesnt bear thinking about eh Bill
so much aggression,your average night on kiwiblog,
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 6:53 pm
Sigh. OK Bereal, I will talk slow so you can keep up. Try to follow now.
Vote:Cunningham claimed “So 1 in 5 children leaving school without basic numeracy and literacy skills…….”
So I asked for evidence of that (Hint: The evidence for that stat is not available because it does not exist).
Then you came along with your dumbass comments, and here we are……
March 9th, 2011 at 7:08 pm
Ah I see now Bereal. You have thrown a 30% stat out yourself earlier and got mixed up with the fact I was quoting Cuningham. Then because Im a lefty you assume I’m stupid and must have been trying to quote your 30%.
Vote:According to MoE’s data website, in 2009, 13.6% of New Zealand school leavers did not attain NCEA Level 1 Literacy and Numeracy. So where does your 30% figure come from? Are you saying that NCEA Level 1 literacy and Numeracy is of a level below “basic literacy and numeracy”?
March 9th, 2011 at 7:35 pm
Hey Shortly Shriveled,
Have a read of my solution, Gen Debate March 2 @ 10.16
There is a possibile solution.
What can you put on the table ?
Dont talk slow.
Dont condecend.
Dont ask questions.
Try. Try . Address this question.
What can you put on the table to improve things ?
What ?
Vote:Or is it all so good nothing could improve it ?
Try and do it without calling me names .
March 9th, 2011 at 7:45 pm
So you got the 30% figure out of your arse then?
You started the condecending interaction, so your complaints about it are a bit hypocritical
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 8:05 pm
This discussion would be irrelevant if we did what we should and follow Sweden’s example of vouchers to parents and made the educators responsible to their customers.
But teachers don’t have customers and they are naturally unionized sheeples, which is hardly an example of entrepreneurship and forward thinking of the type required in a modern world.
Govt. should hock off the capital assets tied up in school buildings and then put the system out for tender and allow teaching groups to establish and run schools for commercial gain. There is absolutely no reason at all why Govt. should be involved in actual education. Establishing standards most probably but like all Govt. run organizations education is mediocre because the right imperatives are not in charge.
i.e. customers needs.
A good example of what works is the education of overseas students. Not driven by Govt. but opportunity taken advantage of by people who are entrepreneurial enough to give it a go. Many within the state schools which actually proves that it can be done.
Vouchers and remove the education from govt. responsibility.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 8:12 pm
Perhaps you should call for a truce Beryl.
Bigjeanie has it right. Bills leftie letters are always prominent in the DomPost from his power base in Khandallah.
I have never worked it out how a strident, right wing, lowly, sheepherder such as me can only afford to live in sheer and absolute poverty in grotty old Wainui when leftie tosspots thrive in the more exclusive suburbia of Wellington.
One of life’s great mysteries I suppose.
Mumble, mumble, mumble, as he wanders off in his gumboots!
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
Yes indeed V2.
The one thing that tool screechers fear the most is being assessed against the rest of their peers and receiving a salary commensurate with their proven ability.
Deal with it now National!
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
Fuck yeah, a real winner.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
Whatever the effective failure rate, some students are leaving colleges after completing 11 to 13 years education lacking basic literacy. Since being being able to read, write & count is a minimum for nearly all potential jobs the kids without these skills are to all intents & purposes unemployable. The Employers Federation has lamented this problem in the past.
There is no upside. They’ve failed, the system has failed, the teachers have failed & the rest of us , in too many cases, pick up the bill for benefits, imprisonment, the DPB for the rest of their lives.
Whether it is PC or not these kids who are set up by various reasons to fail have to be singled out & if necessary held back in classes until the basics are taught. The current system of progression through years not accomplishment has much to answer for. Not all need or have the ability to take advantage of the mandated four/five years of secondary schooling…they do need to read & write.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
Using data from NS to show a static point that supposedly displays the quality of our schools shows the laziness of our journalists or at worse their lack of intellect – also doesn’t say much for the parents that would use it.
This data would generally only reflects the socio-economic environment the school is in – not really new information, and certainly not informative. If we really wanted to learn something from NS data then we would measure improvements in achievements, not snap shots in time. Imagine the Intermediate school being knocked about from low NS results when they’ve had the kids for less than a year when their first chunk of data would be taken – surely this data would just be a reflection of the primary schools the children came from?
I personally support NS, but am worried that lazy league table creation is where the real damage to our investment as a community in many schools will be destroyed.
Of course the other issue is the accuracy of the data, it needs external testing for the standards to be trustworthy.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 9:59 pm
You sound a lot like a union man DRBASS.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
I’m wiping the spit out of my eye!
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
If you are attempting to cook kebabs you should learn to aim more accurately DRBASS.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 10:37 pm
Rex, you are again prone to generalisation and in my experience the NZEI union representatives are actually quite skillful at working out if there is a problem with the teacher or the Principal (as the Boards representative).I have personally been involved in competency proceedings with teachers and less formal situations proceeding competency. Of course the union has a job of supporting the teacher but in both cases it was clear that the reality of the situation was clear to the union rep and in both cases the teachers left (one with reference to the Teachers Council and the other with the understanding that I would be very honest about her shortcomings with her next prospective employers.
Maybe the school that you were a Board member off wasn’t so good – but you as a Board member are responsible for that and you shouldn’t confuse your schools shortcomings for systematic ones.
Vote:March 9th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
kiwigunner, we had an excellent board. I’ll give you but one example- a teacher who assigned female students to pick up litter out of gutters with their bare hands. When one got stroppy (but nothing physical) he slapped her. That opened up a can of worms – turns out he was no good in the classroom either. “Everyone” (except the Board and the parents who, as V2 points out, are the school’s customers) knew it, but nothing was done.
Anyway I was called in to negotiate his removal. No way was he prepared to admit any shortcomings, he was provided with a lawyer by the union and – long story short – to be rid of him I agreed to a settlement where he left, but the Principal was not allowed to give him a bad reference. No doubt he’s teaching someplace else.
“Be honest about her shortcomings”?! That’s hilarious. There’s only one time I’ve heard someone in the profession be honest about another teacher’s shortcomings – when it came to culling 40% because of the merger the PPTA guy was more than happy that it be done on merit and not once objected to my decisions (or, technically, recommendations to the Principal). But when a sacking would create a vacancy it’s a different story… which is sad for the student teachers of quality struggling to find a suitable placement.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 12:01 am
Did anyone else see the unintended irony in this very last line from Bill Courtney; “WHY would we introduce policies that have demonstrably failed overseas, purely in the name of ideology?”?
Pretty much sums up all the rubbish foisted upon us in the name of state socialism in this country.
And yes, I do know he was talking about a specific matter but it really does apply across the whole spectrum of what passes for politics. I guess its just that what he believes is better than what anyone else believes*.
*That was a bit of sarcasm there.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:00 am
Frankly couldn’t care less, but league tables does strike me as somewhat simplistic. Reminds me of some of my former employers who thought you could rank computer programmer productivity by the number of lines of code they write. Having said that I am all for some accountability, just not sure this is the way to go about it. My personal observation of schools is that they seem to spend a lot of focus on the top and the bottom students, and the middle is allowed to slip quietly through the cracks as long as they don’t have behavioural issues….
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
Here’s an article from the New York times
Evaluating New York Teachers, Perhaps the Numbers Do Lie
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/07/education/07winerip.html?_r=3&src=twrhp&pagewanted=all
Not a league table of schools but of teachers.
Interestingly enough the teacher comes out as being in the 7th percentile (93% of teachers are better than her) but they managed to put an error around her figure which was (0%-52%). Putting a true error around league table data is what I would be a strong advocate for because I have worked with such data before and know that the standalone figure i.e. 7%, is pratically meaningless because there is generally huge variation i.e. (0%-52%). Putting the error in would give parents are better understanding of what value they should place on such data.
In this case the problem for the teacher is that she is teaching excellent students so there is less room for them to improve notwithstanding they go onto some the best colleges in the city.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
And here’s a story about how teachers teach to the test and/or cheat to get good results and how very little is done about scores that are unbelievably good.
When test scores seem too good to believe
Vote:USA Today
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2011-03-06-school-testing_N.htm#
March 11th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
You can’t trust those school teachers.
They’re all dyed-in-the-wool socialists.
Every last one of them.
Vote:March 14th, 2011 at 9:28 am
TEACHER INCENTIVES AND STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT: EVIDENCE FROM NEW YORK CITY PUBLIC SCHOOLS
Roland G. Fryer
http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/fryer/files/teacher%2Bincentives.pdf
ABSTRACT
Vote:Financial incentives for teachers to increase student performance is an increasingly popular education
policy around the world. This paper describes a school-based randomized trial in over two-hundred
New York City public schools designed to better understand the impact of teacher incentives on student
achievement. I find no evidence that teacher incentives increase student performance, attendance, or
graduation, nor do I find any evidence that the incentives change student or teacher behavior . If anything,
teacher incentives may decrease student achievement, especially in larger schools. The paper concludes
with a speculative discussion of theories that may explain these stark results.