No extra compensation for Chinese nationals
March 15th, 2011 at 8:20 am by David FarrarKate Chapman at Stuff reports:
The families of Chinese students killed in the Christchurch earthquake will not get extra compensation, despite claims that they need it because of China’s one-child policy.
At least 24 Chinese nationals, mainly students studying in the CTV building, were believed to have been killed in last month’s quake, though only seven have been formally identified so far. Most were aged between 15 and 30.
Cheng Lei, co-ordinator of the Chinese embassy’s disaster relief centre, told Radio New Zealand that the one-child policy meant the victims’ families had lost their source of economic assistance for retirement. He called on the New Zealand Government to increase the ACC compensation available to them. …
Prime Minister John Key said the Government felt great sympathy for the families but would not change its policy.
It was never going to happen of course. Could you imagine the outcry if the Government approved higher payouts to foreigners, than to its own citizens. You’d be more popular selling steaks to vegans.
The request from the Chinese Embassy is I am sure made in good faith. Losing your only child must be a massive blow to a family, and they’ll never recover from it.
However even if one accepted that parents who have lost their only child should get more compensation than those with multiple children (and I don’t – children are not like tyres, where you just replaced the broken one with a spare), the question might arise about whether the compensation should come from the country where the earthquake happened – or from the Chinese Government which has implemented the one child policy.
It is worth noting that the Chinese Embassy were passing on requests from the families of the dead students, rather than making an official request.
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March 15th, 2011 at 8:36 am
This seems to be the way things work in China. Money is often used as compensation.
You have to ask, did these people have travel insurance which sometimes provides compensation for death?
Remember that kiwi who was jailed in China for murder, after some chinese people attacked him and he responded in self defence? (http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/kiwi-s-health-deteriorates-in-chinese-jail-3625607)
The chinese family requested some financial compensation from the kiwis family in exchange for a reduction in jail term, but I don’t think they could get the money together.
This was a travesty of justice by all accounts. And, a warning to those who would do business in China.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 8:39 am
“It was never going to happen of course. Could you imagine the outcry if the Government approved higher payouts to foreigners, than to its own citizens.”
Agree, it is out of line.
But the weird thing is they do that. They treat foreigners better than their own citizens. For example, a Chinese teacher may work their ass off at a school and get paid around two thousand RMB a month, whereas a foreign teacher could wander in the school, and teach say ten hours a week and get ten thousand RMB a month.
Another example, I got a glass picture frame smashed over my head (luckily wearing a cap so only got a tiny cut on my finger) by a random drunk Chinese guy leaving a bar off his head.
I was paid out 10,000 RMB cash by his family. The Chinese police made him. No way a Chinese guy would have got that much so easily.
Weird but true, they treat foreigners better than their own in most cases. So, if a foreigner was injured in a Chinese earthquake their system would treat them differently.
I don’t agree with their approach at all and, as with their usual unsubtleness it comes across as Chinese bullying. They really never do themselves any favours when dealing with the media and their own international image.
But then again, I don’t really think they care too much about that.
But the point is, it is more cultural difference than anything.
They deal in money and compensation in their legal systems more than us.
Going back to my assault case, I was happy. What would I have got in NZ? A drawn out court case with the result being a conviction if I was lucky, no money.
I just felt sorry for the guy, he was locked up until he paid.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 8:44 am
It is a Chinese decision to have only one child. That has nothing to do with New Zealand. What of other victims who are the only child where the parents couldn’t have any more? The same economic argument could apply.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 8:44 am
Extra compensation because they are a different race?…..who the hell do the Chinese think they are….Maori’s
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 8:46 am
I agree that no extra compensation should be paid out. This is what travel insurance is for and life is full of risks after all.
If China pays no retirement income and chooses a one child policy then its citizens live by those arrangements.
Would those families get a lot of compensation if their children had been in a natural disaster in China?
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 8:49 am
@Big Bruv – give the average Chinese person a good suntan and it is scary how much they look like Maoris.
I am sure my gf could pull it off, so to speak.
I think that is why they always go out with sun umbrellas.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:04 am
Worth a try but we need to remember that the students who study overseas usually have wealthy parents, Even if they invest up to 50% of the family income in their child’s education (as many do) there should still be some left over.
Vote:The biggest problem is what will happen to the international education industry. At present it is worth $250 million a year to Christchurch but that is likely to fall off drastically. The rest of the country will probably be affected too. And Chinese students are keenly sought after by Australia, UK, USA etc.
So there may be a case for a special ex gratia payment if only to ensure good trade relations for the future but the same could apply to the families of other foreign nationals too like our language training for Philippine nurses. The Japanese market is also likely to fall because of their own disaster.
The loss of this important export industry is only one of the many long-term economic effects for all of us from the Christchurch earthquake.
March 15th, 2011 at 9:09 am
Wreck 1080 Foreign students must take out insurance before they can study here. I am not sure what compensation the insurance gives for acts of god.
Vote:Your warning applies to people working in any foreign country. I quite liked the Chinese attitude that money fixes a lot of problems. It did for me.
March 15th, 2011 at 9:29 am
Indeed we can say goodbye to the Chinese Student market – their govt can simply turn off the tap as they did a few years ago when some shonky NZ schools got inthe headlines and overnight their Govt pulled the plug on visits here. This is a big business for a lot of NZ and I suspect we are being (as my mum would say) “Penny wise but pound foolish”
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:31 am
“who the hell do the Chinese think they are….Maori’s”
Well yes. Didn’t we learn that Maori originated from somewhere near Taiwan?
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:33 am
bobbie – hadnt read about that case. poor bastard.
im in china twice a year, remind me not to whack anyone.
ya gotta feel for the parents. maybe they need the money. no child to look after them when they are old etc. what does super pay in china?
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:34 am
It’s very sad that they have lost their loved ones, but it is not the concern of the New Zealand government that the authoritarian government of China has been forcing a one child policy on families in China for the last generation or so.
It is also not New Zealand’s fault that an earthquake caused loss of life, and therefore it is not the job of NZ taxpayers to provide additional compensation to any victim of the earthquake, above and beyond what is being provided to all those who have suffered loss.
Perhaps the Chinese government, who are very wealthy now, should provide such assistance to their citizens.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:37 am
Beab
Vote:The Japanese student market has already fallen in CHCH. Very soon after FEB 22 , a whole school just shut up shop..about 35 Japanese students went home.
There has been a very good Japanese prog running here for years thru the Teachers College which more recently came under the Uni..I am fairly sure all their students have been Japanese so this is one business which will be very badly affected..CCEL.
March 15th, 2011 at 9:39 am
@ Dime that’s another good point.
Probably the most important one.
Yeah, of course the whole family system is that the parents pay everything for the kid then the adult child looks after the parents when they retire. It is expected.
That is also why male children are so preferred.
Superannuation? I dunno, I think it is just a pension. Cover the basics.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:47 am
It is of no moment how things are done in China. This is New Zealand.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:51 am
They asked, we said no. End of story?
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:51 am
Then again, if their kids are out here, they are probably cashed up chinamen
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 9:52 am
That’s true Murray and the lesson for the Chinese is that some legal systems are not “selectively enforced” based upon money, connection or status and cannot be bullied.
Usually, democracies.
And yeah, those students will probably be from rich families anyway.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:06 am
Hey Bobbie, I was very much against the Chinese government’s position yesterday in the General Debate thread, but reading your first comment at 8.39am above has thrown this in a new light for me. I still don’t think they should get special treatment, but I certainly understand more of the background now and I am rather less strident in my view of their claims. Thank you for a well-written explanation.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:13 am
The New Zealand tax payer should support Chinese elderly because of a natrual disaster why?
If someone did something that led to their deaths then go after them by all means. But leave the rest of us out of it thanks… or don’t study here, we’re not a meal ticket.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:15 am
@Dave Mann, you are welcome, having spent almost ten years there my overall conclusion on the Chinese is that the Chinese people are great but the corruption in their legal and political systems stinks as does their human rights and freedom of speech restrictions.
But, having said that their modern leaders do seem to be trying to make changes.
Whether for fear of their country breaking apart from pro-democracy protestors or not, it is still good to see.
But cultural differences are the root of a lot of misunderstanding.
And it is true that Western media rarely puts out anything but negative about them.
But as I said, the Chinese also do themselves no favours in this department.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Well sure its a cultural missunderstanding. They want our money, they missunderstand that we’re not going to give it to them.
All cleared up.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:25 am
Another example I have heard about is a Chinese driver (a student) running away from a car accident in Auckland then turning up at the victim’s house with a cheque book and then worse, when the Kiwi refused, trying to bribe the cop handling the case.
To us abhorrent but to them absolutely natural behaviour.
I heard of a case in northern China where a high school fight went nasty and a kid got stabbed and killed.
The family paid the bucks to the victims family and no convictions, it all went away.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:45 am
This is not a discussion about whether you approve of China or its govenment or the one-child policy (which isn’t as iron-clad as some of you believe).
Vote:The point here is that this is a very important export industry that earns us millions in foreign exchange and we are desperately in need of export dollars if we are to get through the next few years in any sort of reasonable shape.
There’s no harm in goodwill gestures that acknowledge the culture of the country we are dealng with – a country that is absolutely essential to our future prosperity however fastidious some of you choose to be.
March 15th, 2011 at 10:49 am
@ Bobbie
Actually, when you look at it this way, the Chinese approach seems pretty reasonable. If you fuck up you must be prepared to put it right (kind of….). In our culture we say that people who fuck up should be punished by the state because the automatic assumption is that the wrongdoer will not try to put it right themselves. Interesting….. a new perspective…. hmmmm….
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 11:18 am
Alll very interesting (and thanks RB for your explanation) but what happens if China decides to use the Sino-NZ Free Trade Agreement as a lever to get ‘compensation’ for its deceased citizens? If NZ’s trade with China was ‘accidentally restricted’ until compensation was paid, would the NZ Govt cave in and pay -up, or . . .
It’s unlikely to happen, but if it did, (and China has been known to use this sort of tactic elsewhere to further its own interests) what would the options be for NZ?
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 11:30 am
As far as I know we are still the only country in the world with a Free Trade Agreement with China. Perhaps they recognised us as a soft touch. Maybe this request is systematic of the type of pressure that will result in order to maintain our preferential status.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 11:49 am
It is worth noting that the Chinese Embassy were passing on requests from the families of the dead students, rather than making an official request.
Couldn’t care less if that is the case! The embassy worker should have handled the request much better, meaning they should have dealt with it between the grieving family and the embassy only – not have an official make a statement to a NZ radio station.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 11:58 am
No, that’s the stupid thing, they are far from being bullies or fascists.
They fuck up with the media, probably mostly less because of arrogance, than a naive misunderstanding of it (Mao influenced).
They traditionally see media and freedom of speech and creativity as a threat to national security, whereas in reality it probably would only strengthen it as far as national unity goes.
Money talks in Chinese society more than others but that does not mean they will risk morality over it.
The Chinese, China, are misunderstood, they hate that, but at the same time they don’t care enough about it.
Odd.
Go to China, turn up at a little village, you will be treated like a king.
A complex race, for sure.
But we don’t have much to fear from the Chinese, in my opinion.
Compared to say, Muslims.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Anyway, that’s me, off to sleep.
Out.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
John Key must immediately send Simon Powers to the Imperial Court in China to Kowtow to the Emperor and plead forgiveness on behalf of all New Zealanders.
Simon Powers looks well suited to grovellng.
China is on the way up, New Zealand on the way down. New Zealand’s course of action has already been dictated by these circumstances.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
Bobbie black 11:58 am Thanks for your informative comments on China.
cheers
David Prosser
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
Well I suppose they may well take Murray’s advice and just not study here….plenty of other places they can spend their money. Funny thing was I thought we wanted them to spend money here, I thought there was this idea that usually the customer was right and that if you wanted to protect a several million dollar industry it may be worth some token guesture to ensure that. I thought that is what clever, practical, international businesses did. But I realise now that in exchange for access to their 1.6 billion people vibrant growing market what those cunning Chinese were really after was access to our stagnant, declining market of 4 million. Anyhow who needs to understand their culture and perspective we are the centre of the world are we not ?
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 6:01 pm
I agree with no extra compensation but can totally understand whay they want it.
This is not so much about the one child policy as it is about the Chinese approach to retirement. In essence, that child was their retirement plan. The parents would have spent a large portion of their saving to get the best possible education for the child, and in return the child is expected to take care of the parents in their retirement. So now they are really left with nothing.
On top of that, it is our system that prevents the parents suing those responsible – the building owner or the operator of the school their kid attends. Instead they get a very small ACC payout. There may ultimately be some prosecutions, but to a large extent we have chosen to pass laws granting those responsible for the unsafe buildings immunity from the consequences of their actions. And the parents of those students are now going to suffer as a result.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 6:23 pm
So what you are saying Nick is they should be treated the same way as SCF investors and get all their money back?
I would back even the Chch buildings that were totaled to be of much better quality than those in China. For a recent example I give you Sichuan.
The parents are basically stating they want future earnings of the child as a claim. NZ law or even custom doesn’t recognize that in fact ACC pays out on the basis that parents look after their children.
Even comparing the generous ACC payouts to foreigners ( who don’t even contribute in NZ to the costs of ACC) with that of Chinese people killed in China I say NZ should be sending an invoice. Its bloody cheeky and deserves a smashing.
Of course sniffing the opportunity to farm off a western welfare state, the Phillipines (a very low wage country) is now lining up withh their hands out.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 6:23 pm
Sorry Nigel, I get you confused with the real Kearney.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 7:32 pm
This is going to come down to what the Royal Commission finds in regards to the buildings.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
V
In HK we are still waiting for the Phillipines government to compensate Hong Kong guests when a crazed local shot up their bus and the local police botched the job. Waiting…waiting…..guess what that enquiry will say if their government runs it?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2010-09/04/content_11255755.htm
The owners of the CTV building have even welcomed the enquiry http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-earthquake/4720104/CTV-buildings-owners-welcome-collapse-inquiry
Can’t see much moving there.
Vote:March 15th, 2011 at 10:42 pm
NeutralObserver
Well said. It’s a wonder there’s a Kiwi left with a nose the way we like to cut them off to spite our face.
I think international education is worth about 1 billion a year to us. Not many other industries can make that claim. It’s worth more than our wine exports.
The Chinese like us, like NZ and like our standard of education.
In true Kiwi fashion, let’s join Murray and his pals and tell the Chinese to piss off and spend their huge wealth elsewhere.
Vote: