Another non tax paying union
May 4th, 2011 at 12:00 pm by David FarrarAndrea Vance at Stuff reports:
An inquiry is under way at the troubled students’ association at the centre of fraud allegations over concerns that it owes up to $200,000 in unpaid tax.
Police are investigating after up to $1 million was drained from the bank accounts of the Porirua-based Whitireia Independent Students Association.
So WISA is acting just like UNITE – illegally keeping the PAYE from their employees. I imagine WISA has also campaigned on higher taxes to fund more student support. The irony.
It will be a great day when the VSM legislation is passed. Compulsory membership doesn’t provide any incentives for responsible management.
Tags: VSM
May 4th, 2011 at 12:12 pm
Some natives cannot help themselves.
An inquiry is under way at the troubled students’ association at the centre of fraud allegations over concerns that it owes up to $200,000 in unpaid tax.
Police are investigating after up to $1 million was drained from the bank accounts of the Porirua-based Whitireia Independent Students Association.
Former president Loretta Ryder stepped down and it emerged large cash payments were made to her bank account. The Dominion Post can reveal Ms Ryder, the sister of Black Power spokesman Eugene Ryder, has lodged a claim for unfair dismissal against the association. The two parties are in mediation.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4957789/Whitireia-student-union-could-owe-up-to-200k
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Factual: YES – DODGY WISA ARE STILL DODGY
Rightie spin: THE EVILS OF UNIONISM FURTHER EXPOSED
Seriously, why don’t you point to Rodney’s holiday with GF and Richard Worth’s downfall and how they illustrate the general corruption of the right?
[DPF: The prevalence of fraud in compulsory student associations is massively high - far higher than in other types of organisations. Pointing this out is relevant, as the nature of the compulsory membership is most definitely a factor in the lack of controls]
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
I don’t understand the opposition to the VSM legislation. No-one is being prevented from joining a union if that’s what they want to do. The only freedom being lost is the freedom to compel others to do something they would rather not do and charge them significant fees for the privilege.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Brian, the left knows best. Thats all you need to know
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
@RRM
Pathetic attempt at moral equivalence and thread-jack.
Must have been a bit too close to bone, quick! time for weapons of mass distraction, must type some completely outrageous BS and get them all arguing about it so everyone forgets what we were originally going to say.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
Don’t worry about it.
When Don Juan Lawfrul gets in there he’ll fix it all up.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
I just do not know why IRD takes so long to put the boot in when PAYE is not paid over. If I was the Commissioner, I would expect PAYE (and student loan deductions etc) to be paid on payday (and get the Tax Act amended accordingly), and if the money is not there the next day, I would send round the goon squad immediately. With respect to student loan deductions, the Government and IRD owes it to the studernt borrowers to be brutal and aggressive, since the student’s loan account is not credited AFAIK until IRD receives the deduction – ie a student could end up paying twice.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
RRM, poor choice of cmparisons.
I’m no ACT supoorter but as I understand it Rodney was acting within the rules as they stood at the time
I’m not generally a Richard Worth supporter but please advise what he did that was so wrong apart from allegedly (but never proven) offending your moral sensibilities.
AFAIK Fraud is still against the law.
If you want to claim spin try:
The evils of COMPULSORY STUDENT MEMBERSHIP are further exposed.
I always thought engineers were more analytical than that
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Lance – no I’m sorry you are wrong, and I am not suggesting there is any moral equivalence, you are obviously a bit thick and don’t see the principle.
Trying to turn a story about dodgy bastards in the Whitireia Student Union in to a generalization about all unions is desperate dog-whistling and DPF knows it. But you are obvously one of the true believers, carry on.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
“david” – what I said to lance.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
@RRM
Lefty self declared intellectual superiority goes down like a shit sandwich.
Talk to the fucking thread.
Your (choke) argument is ‘union theft is ok because Rodney hide took a holiday which some people didn’t like’.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
Seriously, why don’t you point to Rodney’s holiday with GF and Richard Worth’s downfall and how they illustrate the general corruption of the right?
Did Rodney’s holiday break any law?
Did the actions of WISA break any law?
Your defending the indefensible.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
What everyone who isn’t RRM said.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
I think you’re extrapolating RRM. DPF made a direct equivalent, but you don’t have to look far to find “unions + fraud/embezzlement.”
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
No, [again] my argument isn’t that at all. You’re a bit spethial aren’t you.
If theft or whatever is found, throw the book at them. But DPF is trying to make an outrageous generalization out of this.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
Aha. This in your original post would have alleviated some of my concerns…
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
“The prevalence of fraud in compulsory student associations is massively high – far higher than in other types of organisations.”
Vote:A simple google news search brings up fuck all incidences of ‘student association fraud’ and copious amounts of privately owned business fraud.
Do you have statistics to back your view up?
May 4th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
[DPF: The prevalence of fraud in compulsory student associations is massively high - far higher than in other types of organisations.]
Aha. This in your original post would have alleviated some of my concerns…
FFS, did you really need that explained to you?… and you called everyone else dumb.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
@RRM
It’s not a one off though.
For people following the VSM debate, the list of frauds and financial incompetence in student unions over the years has been depressingly high. The notion of giving some school-leavers millions of dollars of cash and assets to play with sensibly has been tested. It doesn’t work very well. Many of the people I had the option to vote for as a student, I wouldn’t trust with a goldfish. It’s partly institutional (compulsion has relaxed a lot of checks) & partly the nature of young adults out of their depth.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
“A simple google news search brings up fuck all incidences of ‘student association fraud’ and copious amounts of privately owned business fraud.
Do you have statistics to back your view up?”
Well if you get your head out of your ass and actually LOOK you might find them. I can think of five in the last two years off the top of my head and then theres the historical ones i know about as well.
none of us here are your fucking secretary, do you own research.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
“none of us here are your fucking secretary, do you own research.”
Vote:I did and in the absence of no credible evidence to the contrary the claim that student associations generate more fraud than any other organisation is successfully debunked.
Thanks for your helpful input.
May 4th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Surely RRM has a point?
Unless I misunderstand the situation with Unite, it hasn’t paid its taxes but has instead used the money on other union business. Whilst the people running WISA, it appears, have diverted uion funds into their own pockets.
Granted the net result to the IRD is the same, but look beyond that most superficial of levels and the degree of alleged criminality is significantly different.
I make this point not so much to defend Unite as to point iut that what student “unions” tend to do with members’ money – whether legal or not – tends to be far more irresponsible and unjustified than any trade union. In fact, conflating the two because they both share the word “union” risks weakening the the case for VSM, for while much trade union activity can be justified, very little student union activity can.
“Student politician wankfest and party central funded by other people’s money” might not be as elegant as “student union”, but it’d be a more accurate monicker.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Its a well known fact on campus that a former presidend of the CPSA siphoned off considerable funds, but I am lead to believe that this was delt with quietly and hence I have never found any record of it.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:23 pm
Not fraud, well at least not in the legal sense;
When I was at Auckland Uni the student union hired a stripper for a piss up.
This with compulsory monies taken off students.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Tax fiddling is not acceptable and we don’t like any of it. And any needs to be addressed and stopped.
Vote:I guess what irritates me particularly even more than the stnadard fiddle is when it is conducted by supposed community organisations who don’t pay their tax, whilst posing as morally superior and indulge in politics. And devote our tax money and resources to that instead.
UNITE comes to mind.
I would want the tax authorities to prosecute ( persecute ? ha ) behaviour such remorsely. And for any trustee or committee member who knew of the fiddle to be personally liable.
Please – Take their houses. Take their cars and sell all of their possessions.
May 4th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
RRM, the point was that compulsory membership doesn’t provide an incentive for responsible management. And it doesn’t – here are two examples. The reason that it doesn’t is that membership is compulsory and therefore, there is no sanction against poor management in the form of the potential for loss of membership (ie money to pinch). There are no market forces.
That does not mean that it follows that all compulsory unions are poorly run, or that if membership had been voluntary in these cases no dodgey dealing would have occurred, but Farrar was not saying that. So stop being naughty.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
m@tt: http://www.salient.org.nz/blog/fraud
so thats 2 for wisa and 1 for cpsa, can Murray add to the list?
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Lance, this also a point about responsible management.
It gives rise to poor quality spending that does not advance the interests of the membership which, surely, in a ‘varsity context, ought to be related to delivery and quality of education and campus services, and not to saving gay whales or purchasing Che Guavara posters to hang on the wall. Those to my mind are examples very poor quality expenditure in a student union context.
You were fortunate indeed to be a member of a union that exercised its discretion in favour of good quality spending when they hired the stripper.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
@Rex –
“Unless I misunderstand the situation with Unite, it hasn’t paid its taxes but has instead used the money on other union business. Whilst the people running WISA, it appears, have diverted uion funds into their own pockets.”
Yes, you’re quite right. To be fair on Unite, their accounts did clearly disclose that they didn’t pay their taxes, and they have since entered into a payment plan with the IRD.
Not that I think it’s an acceptable way to run a union, and it’s totally unacceptable that they still refuse to release their 2010 financial statements, even though it is six months overdue. But you are quite right to draw a distinction between them and people who outright stole tax money for their own enrichment.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 2:10 pm
Rex Widestrom said
I disagree Rex. Every employer has an obligation to pay taxes collected from its staff. Any deliberate decision to withhold taxes is a form of fraud. If anything, Unite’s position is the more serious given that the money enabled them to conduct activities that they would not have been able to had they met their obligation to the taxpayer. And Unite would be the first to condemn an employer who withheld tax payments to prop their business up.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Well said I2,
Vote:Paye is not the employers money. It is the IRD’s.
In the ordinary course the IRD prosecutes those who don’t pay monies due to it, as well as charging usurious rates of interest on the monies not paid.
As one of the other commenters noted I hope the IRD is taking steps to chastise Unite.
May 4th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Unless I misunderstand the situation with Unite, it hasn’t paid its taxes but has instead used the money on other union business. Whilst the people running WISA, it appears, have diverted uion funds into their own pockets.
I don’t think that’s an interesting distinction. The interests of the looters are served by taking the money, regardless of whether the money goes into their personal bank account or the account of the organisation they care about.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 2:30 pm
Especially for m@tt…
FRAUD AT POLYTECHNICS
DECEMBER 1999 – Brenda McQuillan, president of Nelson Polytechnic Student Association, admitted stealing $8004.
NOVEMBER 2003- Florence Bailey, office manager of Massey Students Association, jailed for two years and three months after stealing $203,000.
NOVEMBER 2005- Victoria University Maori Student Association treasurer Wi Nepia jailed for stealing $161,000.
2005 – Otago University’s Te Roopu Maori, the Maori students’ association, collapsed amid allegations of financial improprieties. Estimated fraud $21,000.
APRIL 2007 – Clelia Opie, officer of Victoria University Students’ Association, spends $6000 on phone calls.
JUNE 2009 – Helen Lenihan, former officer manager of the Christchurch Polytechnic Students’ Association, jailed for 22 months for fraud of $175,000.
read the rest here: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/2547611/polytech-fraud-prompts-calls-for-change
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
ciaron: that’s just the tip of the iceberg of course.
And just as concerning as fraud (which occasionally makes the news) is the sheer incompetence of some associations (which rarely does). I recall a few years ago one association fired all it’s staff (which got them all offside) with the intent of reallocating the tasks to a fewer number in order to save money. Well, they ended up with fewer staff but they paid them all (to make up for the firing apparently) more and then hired a new staff member for some new politically correct position. End result: a largly unchanged team, with rotten morale and a higher wage bill.
Oh, and I met one of them a few years later. She told me she quit in disgust after being given a formal warning for… moving a chair!
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
“And Unite would be the first to condemn an employer who withheld tax payments to prop their business up.”
Or withhled tax payment to lobby government for more business friendly laws.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 3:31 pm
I”m curious, who would IRD chase? THe employer? If no luck, then the employee?
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Quite so Kimble. One of the characteristics of a good employer is compliance with the law, and with tax obligations. On that basis, Unite is NOT a good employer. Wherever Unite set up protests at supposed scumbag workplaces, their own hypocrisy should be made public.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
Wreck
The employer. If tax has been withheld, then the employee is off the hook. It is possible depending on the circumstances, that there might also be some basis to chase the individuals concerned.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@ Wreck – no, the debt is entirely with the employer, who deducts the money at source, and has a legal obligation to pay it to the IRD on due date. But what makes Unite’s situation even worse is this; some of those monies will have been Kiwisaver deductions and employer contributions. By withholding payments, Unite has deprived staff members from whom the deductions were made of the chance to earn interest on their Kiwisaver accounts. Interest income lost can never be recovered. That reflects VERY badly on McCarten et al.
Vote:May 4th, 2011 at 6:18 pm
thedavincimode – Employee may be ‘off the hook’ with PAYE, but nor with respect to student loan deductions. If they are deducted from employee but not passed to IRD, the student loan account is not credited and the employee effecticely pays twice unless he can sue the employer for it.
Vote:May 7th, 2011 at 5:30 pm
I just do not know why IRD takes so long to put the boot in when PAYE is not paid over.
peter the Income Tax Act defines PAYE monies as being held in trust by the employer and all known cases of failure to pay by due date are vigorously followed up as a matter of policy. There are very harsh penalty and penal tax provisions and the IRD apply these all the time for almost every minor infraction.
I doubt the IRD is taking no action against UNITE, it’s just IRD can’t discuss taxpayer matters and UNITE isn’t sharing these details either. Shame OIA requests to the IRD on specific taxpayer matters such as general enforcement actions being currently undertaken, aren’t permitted in the case of publicly owned entities such as public companies, local body councils and the like, as well as organisations like unions, who surely wish to be open and project propriety in all its transparency. After all, their core business is ethical representation of human beings. They should simply radiate openness, honesty and transparency 24/7/365.
Vote: