Apocalypse delayed

May 25th, 2011 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

California preacher Harold Camping said his prophecy that the world would end was off by five months because Judgment Day actually will come on October 21.

Camping, who predicted that 200 million Christians would be taken to heaven Saturday before the Earth was destroyed, said he felt so terrible when his doomsday prediction did not come true that he left home and took refuge in a motel with his wife.

Took refuge in a motel – how awful.

His independent ministry, Family Radio International, spent millions – some of it from donations made by followers – on more than 5000 billboards and 20 RVs plastered with the Judgment Day message.

But Camping said that he’s now realised the will come five months after May 21, the original date he predicted. He had earlier said October 21 was when the globe would be consumed by a fireball.

It’s not the first time the independent Christian radio host has been forced to explain when his prediction didn’t come to pass. He also predicted the Apocalypse would come in 1994, but said it didn’t happen then because of a mathematical error.

If anyone believes him third time around, it should be deemed sufficient grounds for them to go to a psychiatric hospital for compulsory treatment.

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146 Responses to “Apocalypse delayed”

  1. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Free speech is great, it gets the wack jobs into then open where they can be taken out without colateral damage.

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  2. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    If anyone believes him third time around, it should be deemed sufficient grounds for them to go to a psychiatric hospital for compulsory treatment.

    Penny Dim fervently believes in it. Enough said.

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  3. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Reckon.

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  4. davidp (3,320 comments) says:

    A list of other dodgy predictions that only the most dim witted person would believe:

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/rapture_watch/

    Unfortunately Nick Smith qualifies as this dim witted person.

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  5. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Don’t some of you guys believe in a surplus in 2014?

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  6. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Or AGW… HERASY!!!!!

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  7. Andrei (2,430 comments) says:

    I guess it might feel a bit apocalyptic in Joplin Missouri and Oklahoma city right now

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  8. Jacob Cohen (35 comments) says:

    Penny Dim fervently believes in it. Enough said.

    This is not true, guys. Penny has enough personality factors of her own that you don’t need to make them up.

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  9. 2boyz (230 comments) says:

    At least the delay will give me a chance to paint the house, get the new kitchen in and make sure the lawn is nicely mowed before October 21.

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  10. MikeG (359 comments) says:

    For three budgets in a row Bill English has promised more jobs and higher growth.

    If anyone believes him third time around, it should be deemed sufficient grounds for them to go to a psychiatric hospital for compulsory treatment.

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  11. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    2boyz – there was a family in the area I grew up who were in some small religion, might have been SDA, and there was a rumopur that the reason their house wasn’t painted because it would be a waste of time with the end being imminent.

    If predicters can’t get a few current dates right no wonder they have trouble calculating back to when the world began.

    A few billion years could be put down to rounding errors (aka mountains).

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  12. ben (2,386 comments) says:

    People love apocalypse. Paul Ehrlich has been wrong on every one of his many predictions of environmental apocalypse and he is still collecting awards. It isn’t about the accuracy.

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  13. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    I notice Redbaiter hasn’t posted on his blog for a few days.

    Don’t be so quick to assume the rapture hasn’t occurred! ;-)

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  14. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    HEY the world is five thousand years old and dino bones were plated by god to test our faith Pete.Everyone knows that.

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  15. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    You’re still here RRM so commie heavan is missing an occupant. Shame for all really.

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  16. toad (3,654 comments) says:

    @RRM 1:39 pm

    I’m reliably informed ‘baiter has gone under cover with view to exposing Obama’s long form birth certificate as a forgery.

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  17. David Cairns (5 comments) says:

    Phew, thank god for that!

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  18. RightNow (6,338 comments) says:

    What a money maker! He took in $80mill this time, wonder how much he can take in by October?

    “The failed Doomsday prophet Harold Camping, the president of Family Radio who raised over $80 million of donations over the past five years, said he has no intention of giving any money back to those who have donated for his false Doomsday campaign.”
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/articles/151419/20110524/harold-camping-doomsday-open-forum-family-radio-money-video.htm

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  19. MrTips (134 comments) says:

    If anyone believes him third time around, it should be deemed sufficient grounds for them to go to a psychiatric hospital for compulsory treatment.

    Oh I don’t know, it worked for Helen Clark and it will probably work for Don “the IRD will give you rabies” Brash.

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  20. flipper (3,269 comments) says:

    Different sort of apocalypse…..more like “holocaust 2″ avoided….. but….

    I have just watched an excellent interview between Hannity of Fox and Netanyahu.

    This followed his (N’s) widely applauded speech (some are comparing it to Churchill’s Iron Curtain
    in speech in 1946) to the joint session of the US Congress.

    I had not realised that of the 300m Moslems resident between Kabul and Gibraltar only one (1) million live in a democracy – in Israel. Not the disputed areas, but are in fact voting Israeli citizens. Netanyahu is a really cool cat. Obama needs to take lessons instead of following his teleprompter.

    With Harry Reid’s denunciation of Obama’s ( & H. Clinton’s) position, O’s view is untenable. Pity the Dom Post reacted so soon (this morning).

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  21. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    RRM said…
    I notice Redbaiter hasn’t posted on his blog for a few days.

    So, why you & Pete George are checking out Redbaiter’s blog site on a regular basis if you don’t like his political philosophies? Isn’t that kind of strange? I can only suspect that both you and Pete George have a lust after Redbaiter. Yeeha! C’mon guys, just come out of the closet. See, I don’t like The Standard blog and I don’t even check what they publish there.

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  22. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    He’s assuming the Rapture hasn’t happened. Maybe only a handful of people were considered worthy and he wasn’t one of them :)

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  23. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    Falafulu – I occasionally have a look at the recycled rants, quite funny sometimes.

    Talking of rants, I could have sworn I’ve seen you joining them raving on about how bad Kiwiblog is. Or is that someone using your name?

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  24. flipper (3,269 comments) says:

    Hi Ben
    I read Erlich’s “population Bomb” in the US in 1970.
    Was frightening.
    Was, it was later clear, CRAP.
    The problem is that gthe esoteric PHds look aFTER ONE ANOTHER. tHETY MaKJE GTHE aWarads oin gthe ol,d “c hums club” basis.
    Erliuch, circa 2011, stndard crap.

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  25. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    I am a Christian, and I’ve never understood why people like Camping can so conveniently ignore the parts in the Bible where Jesus himself says, “Nobody knows the day or the hour – not even the Son of Man” (ie Jesus).

    If Jesus doesn’t know, how can Camping claim that he does?!

    Although I have seen somebody try to claim that although nobody knows the “day or the hour”, nothing was said about not knowing the year … yeah right …

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  26. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Pete George said…
    Or is that someone using your name?

    No, its me.

    Pete George said…
    I occasionally have a look at the recycled rants, quite funny sometimes.

    Stop bullsh*tting Mr George! C’mon just fess-up man. Just say, you’re attracted to Redbaiter’s rants and you’re in love those rants. Otherwise, there’s no explanation about your curiosity and fascination with Redbaiter other than a lust.

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  27. flipper (3,269 comments) says:

    Hi Ben… CORRECTED

    I read Erlich’s “population Bomb” in the US in 1970.
    Was frightening.
    It was later clear that it was CRAP.
    The problem is that the esoteric PHds look after one another and they make awards on the “old chums club” basis.
    Erlich, circa 2011, stndard crap.

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  28. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    graham (41) Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    I am a Christian, and I’ve never understood why people like Camping can so conveniently ignore the parts in the Bible where Jesus himself says, “Nobody knows the day or the hour – not even the Son of Man” (ie Jesus).

    If Jesus doesn’t know, how can Camping claim that he does?!

    Although I have seen somebody try to claim that although nobody knows the “day or the hour”, nothing was said about not knowing the year … yeah right …

    I am not a Christian, and I’ve never understood why people like you can so conveniently ignore the parts in the Bible where Jesus himself says: “They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”

    Actually given you believe the Bible to be fact rather than fiction it’s not too hard to understand why you’re deluded.

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  29. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    I am not a Christian, and I’ve never understood why people like you can so conveniently ignore the parts in the Bible where Jesus himself says: “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.”

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  30. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    Its Masterly I feel sorry for. Gutted his cellar on the big night and now he has to re-stock and do it all again.

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  31. suzie q (24 comments) says:

    When Warren Jeffs of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints took his followers to a hill in 2000 when the world was to end his explanation to followers when it didn’t happen was that God was testing those who were faithful…

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  32. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    Falafulu –
    I love how angry he gets.

    was kind of forgivable that he could write for the NBR, but the Herald?? The Herald??? What an utterly disgusting betrayal of principle.

    Farrar has slowly banished all who effectively criticise National from his blog, and it is now populated by inane chit chat that is so politically neutral in style it rivals the mindless drivel one reads on the Trade Me message boards.Nauseating National party sycophants cruise supremely among blathering politically ignorant innately socialist knuckle draggers with interesting and challenging comment being as as scarce as rocking horse shit.

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  33. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    Falafulu – I poke my nose in there on average about once a fortnight. How often are you there?
    That may reveal who is lusts after Redlippy.

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  34. Longknives (4,048 comments) says:

    Couragewolf- Phew! A bit of a chip on the old shoulder about The Bible there mate? Cheer up..I’m not sure it was meant to be taken literally!
    On the down side…I see the World is now ending on a Friday? Crap…trust Armageddon to hit just before the weekend…

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  35. Zapper (843 comments) says:

    “I’m not sure it was meant to be taken literally!”

    Haha. Which then leads to the question, why would anyone live their life based on it? It’s not meant to be taken literally nor seriously, like all fairytales.

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  36. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    @graham

    I am a Christian, and I’ve never understood why people like Camping can so conveniently ignore the parts in the Bible where Jesus himself says, “Nobody knows the day or the hour – not even the Son of Man” (ie Jesus).

    But wait, isn’t Jesus also God, and God is omniscient…so how can he know and not know simultaneously? Is it supposed to be this confusing?

    I’m also kind of troubled by the thinking that the rapture isn’t crazy until you put a date on it. Maybe the notion of some bronzeage bloodgod suddenly returning to earth and killing off almost everyone, thus condemning them to be tortured for eternity (aside from a select few who’ve vowed to serve him for eternity) is really nuts whether or not you want to put a date on it?

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  37. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    ^ We know who won’t be picked up by the next passing comet, don’t we Chthoniid.

    At least Camping didn’t kill everyone in preparedness – well, no humans, a few pets were disposed of apparently.

    This was real nuts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28religious_group%29

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  38. nasska (9,505 comments) says:

    Did you know there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time!

    But he loves you.

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  39. alex Masterley (1,438 comments) says:

    TDM,

    Damn enjoyable evening!

    The good thing these days every vineyard is unloading their stock, cos it won’t be much use in the hereafter, on blackmarket at below cost.

    Great bargains for restocking purposes.

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  40. RightNow (6,338 comments) says:

    Amazing how many people keep forgetting the First Rule of Redbaiter.

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  41. Ruth (178 comments) says:

    There is something about human nature that finds bad news appealing. The odd thing about “bad news”, be it environmental, religious, or political (NZ is bankrupt for example), is that people always overestimate how bad things are supposed to be.

    Using almost any criteria that measures human well-being we as a species are in better shape today than at any point in our history. One statistic alone proves most doomsters wrong – the average human life span. If life is getting worse and worse we should be living for shorter and shorter time.

    The bad news for people who like bad news: the bad news is wrong.

    And something else that bugs me – who cares if people move to Australia. Good riddance.

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  42. GK (97 comments) says:

    The apocalypse people have swung and missed again. But theirs is fairly transparent. They admit they base it on faith and when their dates don’t get met they head back for a new one to the basis for their faith, the varied utterances by leaders and the scriptures he interprets for them.

    The Global Warming cultists however claim their prophecies are based on hard science. When the oceans don’t rise, widespread heating doesn’t show, snow falls everywhere, massive famine and social displacement fails to arrive etc etc. they’re undismayed. Fervent, staunch and determined they march on, imposing taxes and browbeating the general populace. New warnings, new science, deadlines for us to repent and give them money by, and so on.

    Of the two groups, the Rapturists are the less harmful for they don’t impose anything. Your fear, like your donations, are voluntary.

    The AGW Derangists like Nick Smith legislate their theft of your money and manipulate and orchestrate fear in a gullible and docile population.

    The first group are cranks, the second are crooks.

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  43. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    The first group are cranks, the second are crooks.

    Correction. Nick Smith is both: a crank crook.

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  44. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    Ever circling Manolo, looking for an opportunity to swoop; a kind of blogosphere AWACS. :)

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  45. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    …a kind of blogosphere AWACS.

    Never my intention. You give me far too much credit, since I’m only stating the bloody obvious.

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  46. Chuck Bird (4,406 comments) says:

    AWACS = ?

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  47. John Q Public (14 comments) says:

    Why does Jesus/God/*insert deity here* need to come back and kill everyone? Did he go on a killing spree last time he turned up too?

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  48. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    Airborne Warning and Control System, or some such Chuck. Manolo’s up there patrolling so we’re safe down here.

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  49. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    thedavincimode, sarcasm aside, would you agree with my depiction of the nefarious Nick Smith as a crank crook?

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  50. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “Did he go on a killing spree last time he turned up too?”

    Well actually JQP, he did apparently cause a bit of a flood necessitating some wild-life rescue on a grand scale. The owner of the rescue boat preferred to take only his immediate family so that no doubt resulted in human casualties. Then of course there was the arson spree (no pun intended) in Sodom and Gomorrah. But on the whole the large scale slaughter appears to have been carried out at his request by his mortal agents here on earth.

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  51. Chuck Bird (4,406 comments) says:

    “would you agree with my depiction of the nefarious Nick Smith as a crank crook?”

    Yes

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  52. alex Masterley (1,438 comments) says:

    Just checked the calendar.

    Harold’s new date (21 October 2011) conflicts with the bronze final at Eden Park. Bugger. There will be a conflict, watch the game or the rapture. Choices Choices.

    I’m thinking that i might get a second sky box so I can watch both, or alternatively set up the lap top with live streaming for the rapture and watch the game on the rugby channel.

    I’m not going to go with the formal function this time. The dinner suit took a beating and may have to be replaced.

    I think it will be al fresco with casual attire and a barbeque (or if the saffers are in the bronze final a Brai) with beers and some rough reds courtesy to wash down all that red meat.

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  53. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    In all honesty Manolo, I’m not sure what to make of him. But as you know, I don’t get all hot and bothered about it because I approach the ETS malarkey from a different perspective; namely that if we don’t have one we are simply setting ourselves up for trade barriers in one form or another. That’s the clear message from your mate smile and wave and I think that its a credible message in this global environment. Its what we see with this food miles bollocks for example. My observation is that over time other jursdictions tend to do whatever is necessary to protect their domestic markets from being raped and pillaged by NZ primary producers (ie, being supplied with affordable and unsubsidised products that are produced more cost effectively with a lower carbon footprint). So they invent these barriers as a means to circumvent bilateral trade obligations. The great Aussie apple blight bollocks is another example of the same thing in a different (non ETS) context.

    So I have no idea whether Smith really is a crank crook, or whether he is selling a message that is in the commercial interests of Brand NZ. I don’t have the numbers to support the commercial merits of ETS but given our history of issues with trading partners, I’d be reluctant for us to just give the rest of the world the finger on the carbon thingy.

    So that’s basically why I think your efforts are mis-directed. You should be burrowing in on the trade numbers and the medium and long term consequences to our economy of giving ETS the heave to see if the commercial justification actually stacks up.

    I should add that there is supposedly a strong element of “brand” in this too.

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  54. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    Masterly, is the rapture being broadcast? I thought we would all see it live????

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  55. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    The Apocalypse has already been delayed a few times – a few here: End of the world predictions

    For millennia, Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others have been predicting the year, the month and sometimes the day when the end will come.

    As a word of comfort, we would point out that religious leaders, scientists, fiction writers, and others have made tens of thousands of predictions of apocalyptic scenarios that were supposed to have happened in our past. All have failed.

    Check the category links:
    Predictions that the end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it would happen:
    - by Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) and Paul
    - by secularists and Christians – historical review
    - by the Jehovah’s Witnesses
    - prior to 1921
    - 1921 to 1990
    - 1990 to 1994
    - 1995 to 1997
    - in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
    - in the not too distant future

    They seem to be increasing in frequency (predictions, not ends) – Israel in 4BC had no mass communication.

    “Don’t worry about the world coming to an end today. It’s already tomorrow in Australia.” Charles Schultz

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  56. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    So the buggers in the US can watch ours and then watch their own. If there is round the globe coverage they will be able to watch a rolling apocalypse.

    Even more in Samoa. There’s still seats on AirNZ Auckland-Samoa on the 20th, so if you can afford an extra day you should book soon. Return flights are usually a better deal but not for this one.

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  57. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    That’s a sobering history of epic fails right there PG.

    Should we sort this out properly once and for all – ie get Ken Ring on the job?

    Does this mean that the first people in the world to see it will be in Gisborne? Should we all be going there?

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  58. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    No, Tonga will probably try and get in first again.

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  59. Rex Widerstrom (5,125 comments) says:

    From Letterman’s Top Ten Rapture Excuses:

    10. “Rapture got rained out”
    9. “Forgot to carry the 1″
    8. “Dates got screwed up because of the Jewish holidays”
    7. “Que?”
    6. “Hold on, God’s texting me . . . Yeah, it’s been postponed”
    5. “Don’t blame me! I voted for Kucinich”
    4. “To prevent bear attack, be sure to suspend all food and trash in a tree. I’m sorry, that’s from ‘Top Ten Wilderness Camping Tips’”
    3. “At 89, I can’t remember how to operate the toaster”
    2. “Didn’t everybody’s world end when ‘Oprah’ was canceled?”
    1. “I’m crazy”

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  60. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    Its getting worse. Looks like we are going to get rorted out of the Labour weekend holiday.

    Maybe Rarotonga is the go then. That would give an extra day.

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  61. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    And I can see why Goff’s heart mightn’t be in election. He may know a lot more than he’s letting on.

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  62. GK (97 comments) says:

    davinci — I’m an exporter. I have yet to hear from trading partners anything about ETS barriers. All I can report is their incredulity at deranged whackos in their own countries trying to raise nebulous taxes. They fully expect them to be locked up around every full moon. When I have recounted our ETS they try not to snigger too loud as they say ‘Your kiddin’ me.. Right?’

    Lunatic political druids like Smith, and the soapy cynicism of Key as they grab the tax while pontificating about global responsibility make me puke.

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  63. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    GK

    I don’t know what you export, but my impression is that foreign primary producers look to make plenty out of this food miles bollocks. It certainly seems to be big news in NZ’s agricultural industry. I’m not suggesting that we are exposed across the entirety of the export sector. The difficulty that we have is that agriculture is such a big part of our economy, and our agricultural exports are so politically sensitive in foreign jurisdisctions. If you aren’t exporting primary produce or value add primary products, then I wouldn’t expect that either you or the people overseas that you deal with would have encountered this issue.

    Anyway, as I said, I look at ETS as a commercial and economic response; not at its ostensible justification.

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  64. GK (97 comments) says:

    I am in the primary sector. I’m looking at my supplier’s commercial and economic response. They think they have rocks in their heads continuing.

    And I’m looking at the lies of politicians without a spine.

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  65. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    Should we sort this out properly once and for all – ie get Ken Ring on the job?

    Maybe not, his last big predictions haven’t been that flash, his planets have tootled off to do other things and the shakes are continuing in Quakechurch.

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  66. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    GK

    Well, Fonterra, Meat & Wool seem concerned about this issue. Cropping processors seem to be implementing environmental standards on farm that aren’t driven by local regulation. It seems that you know more than they do.

    I can only suggest that you let them and the government know that they are wasting their time because our foreign markets just wouldn’t give stuff what we do here. Win that battle and we can get rid of ETS entirely because the present government isn’t using this as a revenue raiser unlike the last and current aspirant government.

    Incidently, the use of the word ‘apocalypse’ justifies the slight sub thread reflected in this discussion.

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  67. alex Masterley (1,438 comments) says:

    I’m sort of exepcting a rolling rapture as what ever the kick off time is moves through the time zones.
    The ideal place to see things might actually be American Samoa given that it is still yesterday there. You can see what is happening else where and wait or follow on behind seeing what is left.
    Having said the Gizzie would be great option wine food & surfing. Imagine riding the wave up to Waikariemoana!

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  68. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    The good thing about this rapture thing is that it exposes bigots so incredibly efficiently.
    For example, everyone who uses it to take a swipe at Christianity in general is a bigot, they have to be, it is the only rational explanation.

    And it would appear that this thread is full of em!!

    ……………(waits for howls of atheist outrage followed by proclamations from ‘the logic police’)……..

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  69. James (1,338 comments) says:

    Hi SB…atheist outrage here.Maybe if Christianity hadn’t behaved towards millions of people akin to how the Nazis treated Jews in occupied Russia in WW2 then maybe we unbelievers wouldn’t be so animated in making sure it never poses a threat to us ever again….?

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  70. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Well James, as terrible as “all those millions” may be, it is insignificant compared to deaths due to political ideology in the 20th century alone

    You know, when all that enlightened science stuff was supposed to save us from all that destructive religion.

    2000 years of Christianity
    100 years of political atheist tyranny
    You do the math.

    P.S. Many of those millions under the “church” could very easily be shown to have no other than political and economic influences primarily.

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  71. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    I’m not sure which is stupider shunda – putting a date on it and looking like idiots briefly until it’s forgotten about, or permanently believing it’s going to happen “soon” and looking like idiots for nearly 2000 years and counting.

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  72. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    I’m not sure which is stupider shunda – putting a date on it and looking like idiots briefly until it’s forgotten about, or permanently believing it’s going to happen “soon” and looking like idiots for nearly 2000 years and counting.

    I can’t find anything in the bible that suggests that all the Christians get raptured out of here and then the sh!t hits the fan.

    Quite frankly I think if the end times stuff is going to happen, it will simply be the culmination of all human ‘wisdom’ spectacularly failing and basically us reaping what we as a species have sown over the millennia.

    I don’t think God will have to ‘waste us’ I think it will be more of a “leave them to it then” situation.

    Quite frankly, the idea of human kind needing a saviour is a pretty good call if you ask me.

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  73. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Ah. The demented Courage Wolf skewing scripture out of context again…..quick, someone enroll him in comprehension lessons!

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  74. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    Ironic how Christians are often the most graceless and mean-spirited people, despite claiming to have their lives changed by Christ:

    The good thing about this rapture thing is that it exposes bigots so incredibly efficiently.
    For example, everyone who uses it to take a swipe at Christianity in general is a bigot, they have to be, it is the only rational explanation.

    The good thing about this Islamic thing is that it exposes bigots so incredibly efficiently. For example, everyone who uses it to take a swipe at Islam in general is a bigot, they have to be, it is the only rational explanation.

    See how easy it is to make a point like you did there?

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  75. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    Dazzaman (669) Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 11:27 pm

    Ah. The demented Courage Wolf skewing scripture out of context again…..quick, someone enroll him in comprehension lessons!

    As easily predicted – instead of having to address the scripture showing Jesus’ barbarism, ignore the point + make ad hominem attack = Christian argument for God.

    What true warriors of Christ you two are Shunda and Dazza – you’re such a shining example of Jesus to the unsaved, surely God is using you two to change the world with your amazing Christian lives. Let us altogether cry holy holy holy and lift our hands up into the air as we worship Him! Shabalababababababa! Shakelabababababa!

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  76. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    I don’t think God will have to ‘waste us’ I think it will be more of a “leave them to it then” situation.

    There’s something missing isn’t there. I noted it when you defended Ken Ring’s predictions “because how can you know?”.

    You can’t just think something and it becomes so. You see this on interviews with celebrities and other losers. They’ll say “I believe that…”, and for some reason they expect people to accept it as being valid. People are encouraged to have “beliefs”, but not given any incentive to prove that belief.

    I believe that reading the Bible is breaking the second commandment – by worshipping an evil book as an idol. I don’t have to explain myself, I just believe that. It’s so easy being religious.

    If anything, this event just shows us all how much money these Christian leaders make from idiots. I’m okay with that, just stop telling others what to do, and stop teaching children your lies. Ideally there’ll be some Christians who leave the church because of this false prediction, but sadly most will just justify their stupidity with more excuses. There’s something missing inside their head would normally say – “wait, this makes no sense. I should cut my losses, stop believing bullshit, and not act like a complete fool.”

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  77. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    tristanb

    You raise an interesting point about worshipping the bible rather than the concept. I’d never quite thought of it that way, but in the extremes I think that does sometimes happen – a line is crossed into bible worship territory. My criticism has previously stopped at the practice of interpreting the spots off the page of a document that has its origins an a collection of writings 100s of years after the event that have been collated and translated numerous times, concealed for political and social ends by church and state, and finally then read literally without any regard to the social and cultural mores of the times to which these writings are attibuted.

    As for the disconnect: “something missing inside their head would normally say”, that’s the same “something” that resulted in people investing in property finance companies at 11% when banks were offering half that rate.

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  78. slightlyrighty (2,448 comments) says:

    I would imagine the gathering of the deluded faithfull to be a bit like this…..

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  79. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    Lunatic political druids like Smith, and the soapy cynicism of Key as they grab the tax while pontificating about global responsibility make me puke.

    For all ETS apologists to hear.
    Well said, that man.

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  80. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    @Shunda barunda

    2000 years of Christianity
    100 years of political atheist tyranny

    Marxism isn’t a synonym for atheism. Societies don’t become more violent as their citizens become more reasonable.
    Atheism is simply the rational nonbelief in gods as a consequence of insufficient (or contradictory) evidence.

    Often the best evidence against god is just the nonsense spewed by his followers.

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  81. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    The good thing about this Islamic thing is that it exposes bigots so incredibly efficiently. For example, everyone who uses it to take a swipe at Islam in general is a bigot, they have to be, it is the only rational explanation.

    See how easy it is to make a point like you did there?

    Yeah Courage, there is no difference between a nutter that thinks he is getting raptured out of here and Muslims crashing fully laden airliners into fully laden sky scrapers.
    Or killing people for being homosexual.

    Can you tell the difference between Mohamed and Jesus?

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  82. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    What true warriors of Christ you two are Shunda and Dazza – you’re such a shining example of Jesus to the unsaved, surely God is using you two to change the world with your amazing Christian lives.

    I don’t consider myself to be anything courage, I just get sick to death of some atheists making bullshit claims about Christianity, feigning some crusade against “bigotry and ignorance” and then behaving exactly the same way.

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  83. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    There’s something missing isn’t there. I noted it when you defended Ken Ring’s predictions “because how can you know?”.

    Oh dear, another ignoramus that can’t listen.
    I never defended the moronic Ken Ring, I simply indicated that there is evidence that the moon can have an effect on seismic activity and this clown was exploiting it to validate his astrology. Your reactionary position ensured you missed every point I made in that situation.

    You can’t just think something and it becomes so. You see this on interviews with celebrities and other losers. They’ll say “I believe that…”, and for some reason they expect people to accept it as being valid. People are encouraged to have “beliefs”, but not given any incentive to prove that belief.

    What’s your point? I can’t stand people like that either.

    I believe that reading the Bible is breaking the second commandment – by worshipping an evil book as an idol. I don’t have to explain myself, I just believe that. It’s so easy being religious.

    And I agree some Christians undoubtedly do this. Can you explain how a book made of wood pulp can be evil? you kind of sound like you also believe in magic!.

    If anything, this event just shows us all how much money these Christian leaders make from idiots. I’m okay with that, just stop telling others what to do, and stop teaching children your lies. Ideally there’ll be some Christians who leave the church because of this false prediction, but sadly most will just justify their stupidity with more excuses. There’s something missing inside their head would normally say – “wait, this makes no sense. I should cut my losses, stop believing bullshit, and not act like a complete fool.”

    And this is the bigotry I am talking about “oh!, won’t someone think of the children!” Please, this guy is a fringe lunatic, if you really think this has anything to do with mainstream Christianity I think you are the one that should “stop believing bullshit, and not act like a complete fool.”

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  84. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Marxism isn’t a synonym for atheism. Societies don’t become more violent as their citizens become more reasonable.

    Define reason!! Just because someone doesn’t kill people doesn’t mean they are reasonable. An economic model that is not sustainable in the long term is going to kill a hell of a lot of people eventually, individualism is ‘atheist approved’ and also entirely unreasonable.

    Atheism is simply the rational nonbelief in gods as a consequence of insufficient (or contradictory) evidence.

    And combined with political ideology is an incredibly efficient killer, as no moral imperative to respect life is a doozy of a position to hold when people get in the way.

    Often the best evidence against god is just the nonsense spewed by his followers.

    But are they his followers? Did Jesus say everyone who calls him “Lord” was one of his flock? aren’t most of the new testament warnings about “wolves in sheep’s clothing”?

    Seems like Jesus had this angle very well covered, and quite frankly Chthoniid, you are intelligent enough to understand this aspect of the religion so why don’t you concede it?

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  85. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    Atheism is simply the rational nonbelief in gods as a consequence of insufficient (or contradictory) evidence.

    And combined with political ideology is an incredibly efficient killer, as no moral imperative to respect life is a doozy of a position to hold when people get in the way.

    Atheism doesn’t attach to any political ideology. It’s just the nonbelief in gods. That’s all. You can be an atheist and respect human life, and you can be a theist and not respect it (afterall, as the good de Montfort said, “kill them all, God will know his own”).

    Out of curiousity, how many billions of us are expected to be killed when your bronzeage god returns? Not seeing the respect for human life here sorry.

    Seems like Jesus had this angle very well covered, and quite frankly Chthoniid, you are intelligent enough to understand this aspect of the religion so why don’t you concede it?

    I guess because I’ve never found the “No True Scotsman” fallacy to be persuasive, nor have seen any evidence that suggests that Jesus was more than a failed Jewish insurrectionist. So lets go with logical fallacy and no evidence of your premise.

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  86. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Atheism doesn’t attach to any political ideology. It’s just the nonbelief in gods. That’s all. You can be an atheist and respect human life, and you can be a theist and not respect it (afterall, as the good de Montfort said, “kill them all, God will know his own”).

    Then this defence is available for Christianity regarding the crusades, no one following the teachings of Christ can not respect human life, so the crusades were clearly a political and economic event.

    Out of curiousity, how many billions of us are expected to be killed when your bronzeage god returns? Not seeing the respect for human life here sorry.

    Once again, this is incorrect Christian doctrine from people that quite possibly don’t meet the requirements to be considered a follower of Christ.
    The death that you speak of is seen as the result of a decay in civilisation and a break down in social structures, something that climate change promoters such as yourself seem to also agree with.

    I guess because I’ve never found the “No True Scotsman” fallacy to be persuasive, nor have seen any evidence that suggests that Jesus was more than a failed Jewish insurrectionist. So lets go with logical fallacy and no evidence of your premise.

    Well so what? so you are now incapable of assessing the religion for it’s worth because you think Jesus failed? And did he fail? 2000 years appears to be a hell of a long wind down time for such a failure.
    You don’t have to believe he was the son of God to concede the fact that Jesus expressly warned of those that you are talking about here.
    The New testament consistently warns of the need to discern between those that are true followers from the false, it also makes it quite clear that most will be false. Only the intellectually dishonest avoid this reality, and perhaps people that are ignorant of what the religion actually consists of.

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  87. wat dabney (3,455 comments) says:

    no one following the teachings of Christ can not respect human life, so the crusades were clearly a political and economic event.

    Have you ever actually read the Bible?

    It is sickening in its depravity and barbarity.

    Sure you can selectively quote “good” bits. But then you are not using it for moral guidance, are you?

    The Bible sanctions slavery. Is slavery to be tolerated then? It advocates death by stoning for those working on the Sabbath. Are we to cruelly murder such people for their work ethic?

    The Christian answers are ‘yes’.

    Besides which, the crusades were most certainly carried out by devout Christians, so your pleading is clearly worthless. Christians have killed and killed down the ages. Sometimes we would even agree with their motives, such as those Christians who served in the Allied forces during the last war; but they are still Christians who killed.

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  88. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    Well so what? so you are now incapable of assessing the religion for it’s worth because you think Jesus failed? And did he fail? 2000 years appears to be a hell of a long wind down time for such a failure.
    You don’t have to believe he was the son of God to concede the fact that Jesus expressly warned of those that you are talking about here.

    I think being nailed to a cross by Romans and killed, pretty much ended Jesus’ messianic attempts then and there. You’re presuming the Jesus of your religion and the historical Jesus are the same.

    And the gospels are written in Greek decades after the death of Jesus- bit of an achievement for his followers who were mostly illiterate Aramaic speakers. So it’s a bit of a stretch to claim Jesus said any of the things attributed to him were “fact”.

    Indeed, it seems the most remarkable miracle of Jesus was to be completely invisible to every contemporaneous historian of the region and era.

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  89. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    Why is everybody all down on the crusades? Bunch of Muslims invade your shit, you’re gunna fight back, yes? That’s all that happened. That’s all the crusades were. There’s this myth that the cute widdle Muslims were minding their own business before nasty-wasty religious bigots decided to butcher their women and children, but it’s not true. 8th Century Palestine was Christian and part of the (Eastern) Roman Empire, and mad Arab Muslims, a religion and ethnic group not present in Palestine at the time, invaded and took it over. So frankly, don’t complain about the injustices of the Crusades, because there were plenty on both sides, and the cause was a good one.

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  90. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    And the gospels are written in Greek decades after the death of Jesus- bit of an achievement for his followers who were mostly illiterate Aramaic speakers. So it’s a bit of a stretch to claim Jesus said any of the things attributed to him were “fact”.

    Greek was the lingua franca of the time, and the language of scholarship, so if you wanted to get along in the 1st Century AD, you had to know it. Palestine at the time had been heavily Hellenized for about three hundred years. No Jewish male of the day could possibly be illiterate, since the times were heavily religious and nationalistic, and they were required to be able to read Jewish scriptures in the synagogue. Much of the religious study of the day used the Septuagint, which to this day forms the basis of the Greek Old Testament. And while the exact details and sequence of events may be hazy, I can remember things that happened thirty years ago just fine. Especially amazing and unusual stuff. I am assuming the apostles were the same.

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  91. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    I can remember things that happened thirty years ago just fine.

    Can you remember the exact words of any conversations?

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  92. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    I can remember things that happened thirty years ago just fine. Especially amazing and unusual stuff. I am assuming the apostles were the same.

    Yes, I especially like how they could recall that Jesus was arrested both before and after the passover at the same time. It’s that attention to detail that assures us that the gospels aren’t hearsay accounts composed long after the events they describe, but written by eyewitnesses (of whom we know next-to-nothing). And the merest fact that no contemporaneous historian (e.g Philo of Judea or Pliny the Elder) can corroborate any of these accounts just makes them all the more believable.

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  93. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    Christians claim that God speaks to them and answers their prayers:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10728152

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  94. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “And the merest fact that no contemporaneous historian (e.g Philo of Judea or Pliny the Elder) can corroborate any of these accounts just makes them all the more believable.”

    Whoa there Spiderman!

    What about Chris Faafoi? I believe he was there.

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  95. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Have you ever actually read the Bible?

    It is sickening in its depravity and barbarity.

    Sure you can selectively quote “good” bits. But then you are not using it for moral guidance, are you?

    Oh for crying out loud!!

    the problem with you atheist types, is that you pick and choose when you decide to engage youe brains and use ‘logic’ depending on the audience you have.

    Lets suppose for arguments sake there is a God. If the way things were going under the old testament laws was all good and dandy, tell me, why did this God decide humanity needed a saviour? Why did this God create a new covenant?

    THINK ABOUT IT!!

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  96. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    chthoniid:And the merest fact that no contemporaneous historian (e.g Philo of Judea or Pliny the Elder) can corroborate any of these accounts just makes them all the more believable.

    The fact that the we have multiple versions of the bible and that at least one early Gospel hadn’t heard of the resurrection makes it even more believable too.

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  97. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Shunda:Lets suppose for arguments sake there is a God. If the way things were going under the old testament laws was all good and dandy, tell me, why did this God decide humanity needed a saviour? Why did this God create a new covenant?

    THINK ABOUT IT!!

    I’ve thought about it and concluded that your comment is one long non-sequitir. I assume there’s meant to be another premise in there somewhere.

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  98. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “why did this God decide humanity needed a saviour? Why did this God create a new covenant?”

    Marketing?

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  99. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    And the gospels are written in Greek decades after the death of Jesus- bit of an achievement for his followers who were mostly illiterate Aramaic speakers. So it’s a bit of a stretch to claim Jesus said any of the things attributed to him were “fact”.

    Interestingly, much of the new testament is composed of letters by these “supposedly” illiterate Aramaic speakers, how did they do it?
    Is it possible, by some amazing stretch of the imagination, that there where written accounts that the gospel writers had at there disposal? Is it also possible, that converts from the sects of the highly literate Pharisees and Sadducee’s actually recorded very accurately the sequence of events that occurred in accordance with their religious traditions?

    Please, this angle is just utterly pathetic, and considering the fact the the vast, overwhelming majority of archaeologists have concluded that the scriptures are remarkably consistent, it is a complete non starter.

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  100. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    “why did this God decide humanity needed a saviour? Why did this God create a new covenant?”

    Marketing?

    Break to humour = I win.

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  101. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    chthoniid:And the merest fact that no contemporaneous historian (e.g Philo of Judea or Pliny the Elder) can corroborate any of these accounts just makes them all the more believable.

    And how do you know that they weren’t written and then lost or destroyed?

    Typical contemporary arrogance.

    And completely dishonest.

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  102. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    I’ve thought about it and concluded that your comment is one long non-sequitir. I assume there’s meant to be another premise in there somewhere.

    Interpretation:

    “this is really really dumb, and I can’t be bothered thinking about it”

    Which is actually ok, but just don’t pretend it is anything other than this.

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  103. wat dabney (3,455 comments) says:

    Lets suppose for arguments sake there is a God. If the way things were going under the old testament laws was all good and dandy, tell me, why did this God decide humanity needed a saviour? Why did this God create a new covenant?

    Well, exactly.

    How could an omniscient, omnipotent and all-loving deity frame such barbaric, cruel and foul laws and then see a need to issue a completely revised edition which totally contradicts everything that went before?

    The claim of your religion is moral absolutism, yet clearly your deity hasn’t the first clue. It’s like a spoilt child pulling the wings and legs off insects.

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  104. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Shunda:Is it also possible, that converts from the sects of the highly literate Pharisees and Sadducee’s actually recorded very accurately the sequence of events that occurred in accordance with their religious traditions?

    And yet we know that there were earlier versions of the bible – we have some of them. There are also comments from at least one earlier christian which suggest, possibly, that were other versions even earlier than the ones we have. We know, categorically, that the the text of the bible has been modified.

    Please, this angle is just utterly pathetic, and considering the fact the the vast, overwhelming majority of archaeologists have concluded that the scriptures are remarkably consistent, it is a complete non starter.

    And yet, Mark didn’t know about the resurrection. This was added in by later writers. The idea is apparently that people at the time that Jesus lived recorded, in great detail, things that he said and did and that the writers of the gospels then collated these together into the gospels – apart from the resurrection. They recorded things in all sorts of details but didn’t decide to write down anything about the greatest miracle he supposedly perfomed. Yeah right.

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  105. nasska (9,505 comments) says:

    “I’m going to create man and woman with original sin.
    Then I’m going to impregnate a woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born in human form.
    Once alive, I will get myself killed as a sacrifice to myself.
    To save you from the sin I originally condemned you to. Ta dah!”
    God – master of logic since the beginning of time.

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  106. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    I’ve heard it said that there are no atheists in a foxhole.

    We are obviously not in one at the moment. :)

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  107. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    The claim of your religion is moral absolutism, yet clearly your deity hasn’t the first clue. It’s like a spoilt child pulling the wings and legs off insects.

    What a load of crap.

    If you actually for five seconds made an attempt to use at least some of your intelligence you might begin to see another possibility here.

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  108. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    nasska:God – master of logic since the beginning of time.

    I do wonder sometimes what will happen when xians learn about paraconsistent logics which can, to a certain extent, tolerate contradictions.

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  109. wat dabney (3,455 comments) says:

    What a load of crap.

    If not moral absolutism then nothing but whim.

    You are saying that your belief system offers no moral guidance whatsoever. At least we agree on something.

    What today may be a sin might tomorrow be obligatory. Ah, Yahweh.

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  110. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Once alive, I will get myself killed as a sacrifice to myself.
    To save you from the sin I originally condemned you to. Ta dah!”
    God – master of logic since the beginning of time.

    No that is not quite how it happened.

    This is more accurate:

    God creates mankind for fellowship, with option to reject said fellowship.

    Mankind rejects fellowship.

    Mankind suffers through lack of fellowship with their creator.

    God offers another opportunity for direct fellowship.

    Mankind rejects offer but says if you tell Moses what you want us to do, we will do that instead.

    God gives Moses some rules to obey according to the wishes of the people

    People struggle with rules and still struggle to attain fellowship with God.

    God finally takes it upon himself to create a substitution for the peoples sin, and offers them a part of himself to help them to live not by rules, but by the assistance of the Holy spirit so that they can rely on him and not themselves to do what is ‘right’. God also returns the option of receiving this gift and no one is expected to violate their free will, however God declares that the Law is no longer the covenant with the people and “it is finished”.

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  111. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    paraconsistent logic is a contradiction in terms chiz for the very definition of logic is same input same process same result.

    Period.

    So if it’s not consistent, it’s not logic.

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  112. wat dabney (3,455 comments) says:

    God finally takes it upon himself to create a substitution for the peoples sin, and offers them a part of himself to help them to live not by rules, but by the assistance of the Holy spirit so that they can rely on him and not themselves to do what is ‘right’. God also returns the option of receiving this gift and no one is expected to violate their free will, however God declares that the Law is no longer the covenant with the people and “it is finished”.

    Technically this is known as complete bollocks.

    I mean, what a load of meaningless mumbo-jumbo wankery.

    Grow up, man. Stop being a baby.

    I’ve got more respect for drug addicts.

    Mankind rejects fellowship.

    So, group punishment then?

    Strange, for a deity marketed as your personal god.

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  113. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “Break to humour = I win.”

    If you rate that as a “win’ then I think you’ve got a few perception issues.

    I can’t say I’ve swallowed the pill or even taken it out of the packet, but I do find this stuff quite interesting from an historical perspective.

    Your crew seems to get a bit of a hard time, unjustifiably in many respects, but on the other, you do all sometimes come across a bit evangelical and bring it on yourselves. You really ought to just be up front about the fact that the bottom line is faith and arguments about the “bible”, wars, the inquisition, corruption and political agendas get you nowhere.

    Maybe if “your” faith was “your” faith, then you wouldn’t feel compelled to defend it and wouldn’t respond. Would Jesus?

    Then there is the debate amongst your own crew. There was a very interesting post about Sodom & Gomorrah by a believer a ways back. It certainly upset a few of your crew who climbed in, but as I recall, did nothing to dent a very cogent and rational perspective.

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  114. nasska (9,505 comments) says:

    Shunda. You’re not a bad sort of coot but you’re on a hiding to nothing tonight. Every now & again us atheists like to gang up & get revenge for the times our letterboxes & doorsteps get disturbed by evangelical Christians.

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  115. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    nasska’s right Shunda. Best just to pray for us all like Kris K used to. :)

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  116. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    Well, exactly.

    How could an omniscient, omnipotent and all-loving deity frame such barbaric, cruel and foul laws and then see a need to issue a completely revised edition which totally contradicts everything that went before?

    The claim of your religion is moral absolutism, yet clearly your deity hasn’t the first clue. It’s like a spoilt child pulling the wings and legs off insects.

    Yes you might want to ask yourself why millions throughout history and billions today including many remarkable minds throughout history are unable to accept that, wat.

    Possibly there may be something behind the scenes, which you don’t see, which explains your question. A bit like Masonry really. What do the uninitiated know?

    The good thing about Christianity, is that it doesn’t involve all those silly aprons and blindfolds and things. You just walk in the door, say you’re really sorry and prove it by stopping doing what you are sorry about including thinking the thoughts that led you to do it in the first place, and bob’s your uncle. Well there’s a bit more, about acceptance of the Lord, but one step at a time for you at this point, wat.

    If you want a secular answer to your question, then consider what life would be like, were no evil at all to exist.

    So what is evil? The sub-optimal outcome of any situation? Every potential situation where we have a choice, has two outcomes, positive or negative. This can be toward us and/or toward others so let’s say with no evil we have a world where everytime, the most positive possible outcome arises for both us, and also for any others affected in anyway. Is that a fair enough scenario?

    Let me know if you agree or want adjustments wat to this scenario.

    But supposing you agree, it seems to me this mean everything, health, emotion, upbringing, education, love, every single thing, is always perfect. It can’t be otherwise. In any given situation nothing but the best outcome arises.

    My point is, what sort of world is this. You could never have an accident. You could never take a dangerous risk, even experience danger, for you know nothing will ever happen to you. You will meet the perfect partner, have perfect children, but you are not involved in shaping your own life. You will never the opportunity to make a mistake and learn from it, to feel angry, sad, hurt, but you’ll never be elated with a “knocked the bastard off” either, for you’ll either attempt it and make it without danger and challenge, or it will never occur to you to try. What sort of life, is this?

    P.S. omnibenevolent is the word you’re looking for wat

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  117. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Shunda. You’re not a bad sort of coot but you’re on a hiding to nothing tonight. Every now & again us atheists like to gang up & get revenge for the times our letterboxes & doorsteps get disturbed by evangelical Christians.

    And this is where I have to concede.

    I can totally accept your very legitimate frustration and even anger at times, and to be honest I feel it too.

    I come from a Pentecostal church background and suffered (along with my wife) a tremendous amount of psychological abuse, I have been free from that for some years now and don’t currently fellowship in any organised church.
    The argument against Christianity due to the behaviour of Christians is the most valid in my opinion, but I personally reconcile this with the many warnings in the new testament that deal with exactly this situation.

    That said, I am still trying to figure out how a Christian is supposed to interact with society, and I will confess, I would rather talk to you mean atheists than most Christians :)

    May be I am just an oddity, who knows, most Pentecostal’s think I’m a witch, and my in laws think my wife and I are full of demons!
    Needless to say, describing our relationship with the “padre’s” as ‘strained’ is an understatement.

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  118. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    my in laws think my wife and I are full of demons!

    It’s quite good you’re not Catholics then isn’t it.

    I understand some of those exorcisms can be hell.

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  119. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    nasska’s right Shunda. Best just to pray for us all like Kris K used to.

    Where is the ‘K’ Meister?
    He used to think I was worse than Hitler!!

    Poor soul, I remember his best line: “I am telling you you are going to hell because I love you dammit!!”

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  120. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Them were the days. :)

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  121. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “pray for us all like Kris K used to”

    Too spookey Johnboy.

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  122. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    Where is the ‘K’ Meister?

    I last saw him on Redbaiter’s site, Shunda. I think they became “best friends.”

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  123. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Nonsense davinci. I regard Kris’s prayers for me sort of like an extra free lucky dip at the Lotto shop. :)

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  124. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “most Pentecostal’s think I’m a witch”

    That’s good progress right there Shunda.

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  125. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “I regard Kris’s prayers for me sort of like an extra lucky dip at the Lotto shop”

    Don’t you mean a bit like getting the Black Spot?

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  126. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Is that like getting the crabs davinci?

    Mortein seems to work. :)

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  127. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    ps: Hold your finger over the end of the old feller otherwise it stings like shit! :)

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  128. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    Re-read your Treasure Island Johnboy.

    Yikes, I hope I never get crabs. The cure sounds fearful. I hope it worked for you. I guess prayer didn’t.

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  129. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Where is Kris K ? Did he have a one man rapture or something?

    There has been many tasty morsels on this thread that I beleive his higher power would have liked him to step up on, on his behalf

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  130. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Arrh Jim lad!

    That it do!

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  131. thedavincimode (6,117 comments) says:

    “Where is Kris K ?”

    Right up ‘baiter’s arse where he belongs.

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  132. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Yes I miss all the old timers. Baiter, Kris, Magpie.

    Still there is always Penny.

    Penny, Penny, where are you?

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  133. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    Seriously and at the risk of sounding sanctimonious [but I don't care] everyone owes it to themselves at some point in life to seriously acquaint themselves with what religion says.

    It doesn’t really matter which one you choose from a secular perspective – they all point to the same. Just be open to the call and it will come, at some point in life, and you will know it when it comes.

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  134. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Your crew seems to get a bit of a hard time, unjustifiably in many respects, but on the other, you do all sometimes come across a bit evangelical and bring it on yourselves. You really ought to just be up front about the fact that the bottom line is faith and arguments about the “bible”, wars, the inquisition, corruption and political agendas get you nowhere.

    I guess my motivation is simply to see this history in context with the times it occurred in. For example, the crusades were largely due to the gospel making Europe a less violent place. The Christianising of the Vikings stopped them from attacking Europe, but Europe still had many fighting men that then basically became bored and started causing trouble. Combined with a nobility that had run out of land to conquer, and you have the perfect recipe for some ‘crusadin’.

    Maybe if “your” faith was “your” faith, then you wouldn’t feel compelled to defend it and wouldn’t respond. Would Jesus?

    I honestly don’t know. I don’t think I am really a good guy, but I am determined to be honest about where I am at. I know that Christian people pretending to be pious makes me sick and I don’t want a bar of it.
    For personal progression to be possible I believe being honest about where you are at is essential, but so many Churches crush this out of people.
    So this probably means I have talked a lot of crap here at times which means I am reliant on the grace of God and those on the blog.
    I have actually learnt quite a lot from some people here, but I am certainly not going to admit that in the heat of battle ;)

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  135. nasska (9,505 comments) says:

    ….”Where is Kris K ? Did he have a one man rapture or something?”…….

    This quote from one of the lesser known books of scriptures may shed some light on his disappearance…

    Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
    Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
    Give a man religion and he will starve to death praying for a fish.

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  136. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Where is Kris K ?”

    Right up ‘baiter’s arse where he belongs.
    ………………………………….

    Oh dear, the intellectual heavyweights are circling their wagons

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  137. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    “Give a man religion and he will starve to death praying for a fish.”

    Tie your own flies too do you nasska? :)

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  138. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    Please, this angle is just utterly pathetic, and considering the fact the the vast, overwhelming majority of archaeologists have concluded that the scriptures are remarkably consistent, it is a complete non starter.

    Umm, nope. A bunch of Xtian apologists have claimed that. That’s not the consensus of archaeologists or historians. Its not even a view shared by a lot of Xtian theologians.

    E.g. A Schweitzer, all round nice guy, Nobel laureate & professor of theology notes “The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the kingdom of God, who founded the kingdom of heaven upon earth and died to give his work its final consecration never existed…”

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  139. Scott (1,614 comments) says:

    I do agree with Shunda in a lot of what he wrote. I am sure that the world will end but God knows when-not any person on Earth.
    That someone is foolishly making false predictions should not blind us to the truth of the apocalypse,the end of the world and the final judgement.

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  140. Johnboy (13,386 comments) says:

    Your right Scott.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_giant

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  141. reid (15,531 comments) says:

    Umm, nope. A bunch of Xtian apologists have claimed that. That’s not the consensus of archaeologists or historians. Its not even a view shared by a lot of Xtian theologians.

    So what’s the % breakdown, Chthoniid?

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  142. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    E.g. A Schweitzer, all round nice guy, Nobel laureate & professor of theology notes “The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the kingdom of God, who founded the kingdom of heaven upon earth and died to give his work its final consecration never existed…”

    And they could also probably ‘prove’ Julius Caesar was actually a pet chicken.

    Quite frankly, the corruption and massive motivations to make Jesus ‘go away’ is entirely understandable and predictable.

    If Richard Dawkins was an archaeologist, I can’t exactly see him rooting for ‘real’ Jesus.

    The integrity of the scriptures has curiously only become an issue in recent times, almost at exactly the same time as the ‘new atheists’ came to the fore, funny that.

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  143. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Shunda:Interpretation:“this is really really dumb, and I can’t be bothered thinking about it”

    Which is actually ok, but just don’t pretend it is anything other than this.

    Again I’m not sure what you are saying here. I’m not sure whether you’re admitting that your comment was dumb and I shouldn’t waste time thinking about it or whether it is intended to be some sort of jibe at me for not following you. Here is your original post:

    Lets suppose for arguments sake there is a God. If the way things were going under the old testament laws was all good and dandy, tell me, why did this God decide humanity needed a saviour? Why did this God create a new covenant?

    THINK ABOUT IT!!

    If this is intended to be some sort of argument then it fails.

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  144. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    reid:paraconsistent logic is a contradiction in terms chiz for the very definition of logic is same input same process same result.

    Period.

    So if it’s not consistent, it’s not logic.

    There is no contradiction in terms here. There are other logics besides classical logic.

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  145. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    reid:Yes you might want to ask yourself why millions throughout history and billions today including many remarkable minds throughout history are unable to accept that, wat.

    Just because large numbers believe things that doesn’t mean there is anything to them.

    Possibly there may be something behind the scenes, which you don’t see, which explains your question. A bit like Masonry really. What do the uninitiated know?

    What do the initiated know? In my experience christians are often woefully informed.

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  146. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Shunda:The integrity of the scriptures has curiously only become an issue in recent times, almost at exactly the same time as the ‘new atheists’ came to the fore, funny that.

    Textual criticism of the bible started in the 19th century and has nothing to do with ‘new athiests’ whatever they are.

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