John Minto MP

May 15th, 2011 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

Neil Reid in the SST reports:

HONE HARAWIRA has confirmed veteran activist will be invited to stand for his new political movement, the Mana Party, in the general election.

In an exclusive interview, the nation’s most polarising MP described Minto – formerly the leader of anti-apartheid group Halt All Racist Tours – as “a great New Zealander”.

And Minto – who has rejected three previous offers to stand for other political parties at previous elections – has confirmed if his family backs him, he “would be delighted” to accept the offer.

It’s 20 years since the UUSR ditched communism and around a decade since the Chinese effectively did the same. But in NZ, we may get to put another Marxist into Parliament.

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99 Responses to “John Minto MP”

  1. thedavincimode (6,530 comments) says:

    If nothing else it would get him out of the education system so he can no longer poison young minds.

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  2. jims_whare (398 comments) says:

    This is great news – will be a boost to ditch MMP at the election, maybe he should look at Tama Iti as another possible candidate

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  3. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Whats the rules about entering Parliament with criminal convictions? Anybody clarify please.

    Minto is to be despised, he has never done a thing for anyone, it has all been about him

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  4. Manolo (13,341 comments) says:

    Minto, a traitor to this nation entering Parliament? An utter disgrace.

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  5. Bryce Edwards (248 comments) says:

    Yes, the election of John Minto to Parliament would certainly be significant. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I think what he has to say would resonate with a decent number of voters, and therefore NZ politics would be richer for his involvement. Minto is also a very impressive political activist in that unlike many on the left, his activism is supported by very strongly held principles and intellectual reasoning – he’s no lightweight or flake, but a very deep and genuine thinker that is not easily motivated by hyperbole and fads. I’d also say that I can imagine that Minto would very strongly disagree that his politics are closely related to those of the old Stalinist USSR and China. I seem to remember him being incredibly critical of those regimes.

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  6. alex Masterley (1,490 comments) says:

    TDM,

    Minto stopped teaching a while ago. He is an “organiser” at Unite Union.

    Personally i think his chances of getting into Parliament are as good as mine of becoming the next Bishop of Rome.

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  7. Inventory2 (10,097 comments) says:

    @ Pauleastbay – ask Sue Bradford, who BTW, is also becoming a Mana Party candidate.

    Perhaps Mana’s slogan is going to be

    You don’t have to be a criminal to stand for us, but it helps!

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  8. jaba (2,089 comments) says:

    oh no .. isn’t Mallard enough to bring the MP image into further disrepute?

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  9. Paulus (2,499 comments) says:

    Wonderful – best thing for New Zealand electors and MMP.

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  10. Elaycee (4,300 comments) says:

    his is sick.

    Minto is a totally divisive, hate filled whackjob who still thinks that the promotion of civil disobedience is something that should be worn as a badge of honour. It is fitting that he would find his way to the racist party – after all, he has been inciting violence and hatred for most of his life.

    What a ‘fantastic’ choice for the voter – Hone and Titiwhai Hawawira, Ken Mair, John Minto, Matt McCarten, Annette Sykes, Sue Bradford, Nandor Tanczos, Phil Ure, maybe Tama Iti etc.

    This has to be the biggest line up of arseholes since they installed the communal long drop at Woodstock.

    More good reasons to reject MMP.

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  11. nasska (10,636 comments) says:

    Minto is an A Grade wanker. To date his greatest achievements in life would be getting his brains scrambled during the Springbok protests & picking on some kid playing a game of tennis.

    Definitely a worthy offsider for Hone.

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  12. spector (180 comments) says:

    I think it’s fabulous how Hone speaks so highly of someone he wouldn’t allow to marry his daughter :)

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  13. Elaycee (4,300 comments) says:

    Oops – Edit too quick for me. My post at 1.30pm should have started “This is sick…”

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  14. Other_Andy (2,278 comments) says:

    Oh the irony…
    A person who has campaigned against apartheid in SA likes to join a party that wants to introduce it here.

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  15. nasska (10,636 comments) says:

    Elaycee @ 1.30pm
    ..”This has to be the biggest line up of arseholes since they installed the communal long drop at Woodstock.”…..

    Love it! Why didn’t I think of that one first?

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  16. Maggie (674 comments) says:

    In promoting civil disobedience Minto is following the example of leaders such as Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela, are they ”whack jobs”, too?

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  17. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    All the rotten eggs in one basket.

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  18. Nookin (3,034 comments) says:

    Can’t remember Gandhi throwing broken glass and fish-hooks onto a playing field.

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  19. nasska (10,636 comments) says:

    Gandhi & Mandela had one thing in common. They were both residents & citizens of the counties where they were attempting to change the regimes. Minto is neither…he’s just a big mouthed, shit stirrer who will protest at anything , at any venue, at any time provided it keeps him & his smelly bunch of hangers on in the headlines.

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  20. rosscalverley (111 comments) says:

    And I don’t remember New Zealand having a illegitimate government.

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  21. Elaycee (4,300 comments) says:

    Haven’t heard about Ghandi telling his “supporters” that they should hit policewomen on the shoulder blades either.

    Never heard about Mandela wearing a crash helmet at a ‘peaceful rally’ either.

    Never heard about Ghandi running to the Police for protection against the nasty rugby supporters who wanted to go about their lawful business and watch a game of footy. Plenty other such examples too..

    Nah – Minto is a whack job all in a ‘class’ of his own.

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  22. Chuck Bird (4,673 comments) says:

    It’s 20 years since the UUSR ditched communism and around a decade since the Chinese effectively did the same. But in NZ, we may get to put another Marxist into Parliament.

    Yes, thanks to John Key and his race based polices.

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  23. Inventory2 (10,097 comments) says:

    That’s a very, VERY long bow you’re drawing Chuck. John Key might not even have been born when the Maori seats were first established.

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  24. Other_Andy (2,278 comments) says:

    Minto – formerly the leader of anti-apartheid group Halt All Racist Tours….
    What is your view on the Maori Rugby team?

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  25. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    If one truly believes in democratic representation and voice, then Minto’s potential election should be welcomed. Not only does it add diversity to the house debate. It will expose his ideas to the cut and thrust of parliament, where they will prosper or perish on their merits as well as by their tempering in the political jousting and tactical maneuvering that are the nature of the parliamentary game. Although I do not agree with plenty of what John advocates, his brand of social democratic thought (he is nowhere close to a Stalinist) is a healthy antidote to the discredited “New Labour” approach, and will help keep the Left side of the parliamentary spectrum a bit more honest and focused on the core issues that used to be the hallmark of Left parties. If nothing else, the more voices heard in parliament the more the public can evaluate their merits and make their political choices accordingly.

    Although I am not surprised that some commentators here are opposed to his possible election as an MP and would seek to exclude him for perceived crimes of commission and omission (both ideological as well as material), I am surprised that DPF appears to think that being a “Marxist” is a disqualifying trait for someone seeking political office in NZ. Beyond the anti-democratic nature of such an ideological exclusion, it only seems fair that if the Right can bring in list MPs who exhibit a bit of ideological zealotry, then the Left is entitled to do so as well. Whatever flaws it has, the beauty of MMP is that it puts the principle of diversity in representation first, and even if some efficiency in decision-making might be sacrificed in exchange (although the use of urgency suggests not), the core value of democratic voice is maintained precisely by bringing in views such as Mr. Minto’s. After all, it is not the presence of mainstream views that is the hallmark of a robust and healthy democratic system. Instead, it is the institutionalised presence of minority and often unpopular voices that shows genuine maturity in democratic regimes.

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  26. kiwigunner (213 comments) says:

    John Minto and HART played a significant part in the change affected in South Africa. No lesser man than Nelson Mandela (who also fell foul of the law by the way) has acknowledged this. Minto also plays a key and thoughtful role in QPEC a lobby group working towards ensuring Quality Public Education in our country. Whether you agree with him or not he is certainly a principled and intelligent man. Those who criticise him here may be right – these may be the qualities of someone unfit for parliament right now – far better to have Double Dipton Bill and Smile and Wave Do Nothing Key, or maybe Rodney I’ll take the girlfriend Hide. Yeah Right.

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  27. big bruv (13,249 comments) says:

    At least with Minto you know what you are getting, while I despise the man with a passion I would take him over the Greens any day of the week.

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  28. big bruv (13,249 comments) says:

    “John Minto and HART played a significant part in the change affected in South Africa”

    Bullshit!

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  29. Chuck Bird (4,673 comments) says:

    “John Key might not even have been born when the Maori seats were first established.”

    He obviously was not but he was a National MP when that was National Party policy. I believe he is responsible for the change of policy like many others. He can support a binding referendum on this issue.

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  30. Right of way is Way of Right (1,129 comments) says:

    “Mana” obviously doesn’t quite translate very well in the far north then. This collection of misfits that Hone is collecting around himself are looking like a conglomerate of the disaffected and marginalised, all competing for votes from the same pool of idiots.

    Has he signed Penny Bright up yet?

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  31. tom hunter (4,374 comments) says:

    John Minto and HART played a significant part in the change affected in South Africa. No lesser man than Nelson Mandela (who also fell foul of the law by the way) has acknowledged this.

    One of Mandela’s less appreciated qualities was his ability to be a politician. Part of the art of being such is to tell the audience things they like to hear – which is why it was widely reported that Nelson had given thanks to Governor General Catherine Tizard for the support of New Zealand anti-apartheid groups, as shown particularly by their opposition to the 1981 Springbok Tour.

    A more accurate guide to his thoughts on this would be found in his massive autobiography Long Walk to Freedom, which contains not a single reference to New Zealand, let alone to the 1981 tour, HART, or John Minto.

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  32. Manolo (13,341 comments) says:

    He can support a binding referendum on this issue.

    If it entails smiling and waving John Key can and will do it. The man is an empty suit.

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  33. Manolo (13,341 comments) says:

    … leaders such as Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela, are they ”whack jobs”, too?

    Gandhi had a liking for prepubescent young girls. Mandela, despite of the latest attempts at beatification, was an awoved communist.

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  34. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    If one truly believes in democratic representation and voice, then Minto’s potential election should be welcomed.

    Why are the two connected in anyway?

    I advocate for quality voices, his isn’t. I don’t care if it’s a lefty or a conservative, if they’re not a quality voice and by that I mean thinker, doer and with integrity and very energetic, if they haven’t got all of those qualities I’m not interested in paying them to take national office. Simple as that. They are not good enough to justify not only their own salaries but all the other expenses it takes to keep this ego ship running.

    It’s pretty much as bad as I want it to get, in this dept, right now, and Minto would make it worse, by a long way.

    This is because Minto like any Green and half of Liarbore and all of NZF and some of National and some of ACT, I can pretty much predict the angle they will take on any issue at all. And when I can do that, it means they aren’t being effective, they’re simply operating on their own narrow meme agendas, and why should I pay them for doing that, when I can make it up myself without having to pay them? I can do that for Minto and for McCarten and for the entire racist commie bunch of em.

    I guess that’s another thing about it that’s slightly wider than Minto which makes this a bad idea. This is the first openly racist serious party we’ve ever had in NZ. Imagine if the National Front had got the exposure Mana has had to date and yet what’s the best Mana when it eventually gets round to making them up, will have exactly the same policies as the National Front does, except this time, the hero is Golliwog, not Noddy. (Sorry if that was racist, the point of the Noddy ban often escapes me so its my own little protest – free speech and all. toad, what are your thoughts on my use of that term?)

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  35. pct (19 comments) says:

    Anyone see the connection between this nut job and the others like him (eg Sue Bradford) being able to be in positions of influence (or disruption) in this country over the past 25 years and the widening living standards gap between NZ and Australia?

    Other countries have the same fukwits but they are left in a corner to make noise and are ignored? Why are they able to get influence here?

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  36. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    The only thing either of them have achieved for the several million we have already paid them, is the anti-smacking. That’s it. Not much is it.

    So I’m not sure they’re directly responsible for us failing to catch Aus but let’s put it into the “possible” category because who knows what might happen, when those two play around with the levers of power.

    I just hope they don’t snap off the wurzenflugel. Then we’re all fucked. The fact they’d die immediately is a small consolation.

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  37. jaba (2,089 comments) says:

    in a democracy, anyone can try to enter parliament if they qualify .. hell, Harry Duynhoven was a MP even though he wasn’t a NZ citizen .. Dame Helen sorted that out quickly aye?
    Paul B is correct but so is Big Bruv.
    we already have, or have had people as MP’s who should NEVER have been representatives of our country .. many got through because of MMP.
    Minto/Sykes/Harawiri and possibly Mutu and maybe Mair as MP’s .. nononono. At least they will be found out and hopefully given the flick. They would all rely on Harawira getting elected and that is due to the outdated Maori seats. Mair for instance can’t even get elected as a Wanganui City Councillor.
    Get rid of the Maori seats and MMP and these morons would be forever yelling and screaming from the sidelines and not getting paid over 120k by the taxpayer.

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  38. Tauhei Notts (1,604 comments) says:

    Tom Hunter at 3.09.
    Thank you.
    Spot on.

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  39. david (2,535 comments) says:

    If only Paul was correct it would be an admirable disinfectant for Minto’s philosophies to be subject to debate and challenge. Unfortunately if he is successful as an MP for Hone’s racist party, it will be a rare event for the debate to get to the level of his personal philosophies. With Hone it has been rare occasions when he has let slip in print interviews that has exposed his bitter racist side and it will be equally rare that the true level of Minto’s beliefs will be seen.

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  40. NX (602 comments) says:

    Think I read once that Minto is a home owner.

    Enough said.

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  41. rouppe (915 comments) says:

    I was a student in Hamilton in 1981. I was staying in one of the Halls of Residence. I didn’t give a hoot about rugby or politics back then.

    John Minto had gathered many protester types into his hyperbole, and one of them was the Dean of that Hall the Revered John Denny. He had a small house attached to the grounds of the Hall.

    I clearly remember John Denny striding into the dining room that afternoon shouting “we did it!”. Soon thereafter he called about the place for some of the residents to come to the house as “some people might want to come damage it”. How could anyone know who he was and where he lived I thought. Being naive, I agreed.

    A couple of hours later, around a hundred – a HUNDRED – very drunk and very angry rugby supporters turned up and started smashing everyone in sight, including me. In the end, the Police had to have a line of riot Police along the length of Knighton Road outside both my hall and the one next door to prevent wholesale thuggery.

    And where was John Denny, or John Minto? Nowhere to be seen. Denny in particular had slipped away and left everyone else to face the anger he had generated in league with Minto. Utter coward.

    The moral of this story is that John Minto does not care about people. He does not care who he hurts or causes to get hurt. He is selfish in the extreme, and unwavering in his opinion of himself. Anyone who disagrees must be wrong. This is the same belief system as Hone, and Bradford.

    My prediction is that at some point there will be a march in downtown Wellington and/or Auckland during the election organised by that lot. And anyone who disagrees will be confronted by bully-boys decked out in some sort of uniform intended to intimidate. The Mana Party is following in some scary precedents.

    If they get any influence in this country then it truly is time to leave, for ones own safety.

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  42. Red Sam (122 comments) says:

    John is a passionate and humble chap. Have any of you ever had a conversation with him or are you happy to buy in to sideshows created by Rupert Murdoch’s media empire?

    As a committed socialist, I’d rather have John in there exposing the Right than the weak and pathetic centrist Labour MPs. Hopefully they’ll end up like the Canadian Liberal Party – irrelevant! There are a lot of us crying out for a decent Left party to have seats in the House.

    The economic policies that John Minto and Hone espouse are simply the sorts of democratic socialist policies that any decent Labour party should be supporting – policies favoured by earlier NZ Labour Governments. Hardly extreme.

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  43. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Minto

    Has protested against white rule in South Africa.
    He has protested against the USA on anything and everything.
    He has protested against one Israeli tennis player at Stanley Street.

    he has not protested against:
    Robert Mugabe’s death squads eradicating Joshua Nkomo’s followers following his winning power in Zimbabwe.
    He has not protested against Iraqs systematic genocide of the Kurds in northern Iraq.
    he has not protested against Gaddaffi financing the Locherbie bombing etc etc etc etc.

    So this hypocritical prick has the gall to call many New Zealanders racist. He is s mealy mouth cowardly man who is very good yelling down a megaphone but he has never been at the front line.

    A commentator above said HART resulted in the downfall ( some what)of the white govt in SA. Totally wrong, they got no publicity over there.

    I have asked Minto why instead of yelling through a microphone he did not get on a plane and get into SA and work from within, I got the simpering grin and he walked away. You may have guessed correctly that I fucking loathe him

    The problem is not that he gets into Parliament so much, it is that he is such a piece of shit, there is absolutley nothing redeeming about him in anyway.

    Red Sam yes I have had a conversation with him, when confronted with a reasonable question he walks away, humble my arse.

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  44. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    And where was John Denny, or John Minto? Nowhere to be seen. Denny in particular had slipped away and left everyone else to face the anger he had generated in league with Minto. Utter coward.

    The moral of this story is that John Minto does not care about people. He does not care who he hurts or causes to get hurt. He is selfish in the extreme, and unwavering in his opinion of himself. Anyone who disagrees must be wrong. This is the same belief system as Hone, and Bradford.

    and

    I have asked Minto why instead of yelling through a microphone he did not get on a plane and get into SA and work from within, I got the simpering grin and he walked away.

    Good to hear all these encouraging things about the new candidate for Mana. It just shows what a bunch of quality people they have in their repertoire.

    I can’t wait to hear their next candidate announcement.

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  45. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    I’d rather have John in there exposing the Right than the weak and pathetic centrist Labour MPs.

    Why, what do you think he’s going to find or say? Anything that hasn’t already been found or said, or not really?

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  46. Maggie (674 comments) says:

    Manolo demonstrates a liking for hyperbole, drama and plain downright inaccuracy. Mandela was not a n ”avowed Communist”. Gandhi slept naked with teenage girls, not prepubescent ones, in order to demonstrate his ability to overcome temptation. There is no evidence I know of that he ever molested any of them.

    Some proof of your claims would be nice but I suspect that is a little too much to expect. Hysteria is more your game.

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  47. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    “I can’t wait to hear their next candidate announcement.”

    My money’s on Magic Bullet or MyNameIsJack

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  48. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    “slept naked with teenage girls, not prepubescent ones, in order to demonstrate his ability to overcome temptation.”

    Michael Jackson should’ve thought of that one

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  49. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    “My money’s on Magic Bullet or MyNameIsJack”

    I like your thinking.

    They’re sure mental enough. But are they attractive enough, in a worker kinda way? Time may possibli tell.

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  50. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    maggie,

    Since when did ‘armed insurrection’ qualify as “civil disobedience”?

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  51. MrTips (144 comments) says:

    Is it just me or does anyone else find the posts from Bryce Edwards and Paul Buchanan, supposed political experts, extremely naive and scarily cult-like in their promotion of the democratic process as an end in itself? How on earth anyone can think Minto has valid arguments to make and actually cares about other people is beyond belief.

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  52. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    Mr. Tips: In a democracy it is the institutions, rules and norms that matter, regardless of the ideological preferences and expressions of individuals aspiring to be part of the political process. To deny a person the right to contest for a parliamentary seat based upon ideological distaste is simply a contravention of basic democratic principle. As for “naive and scarily cult-like.” If by that you mean a basic understanding of said democratic principles, then guilty as charged (although Bryce may have a different opinion since he and I do not hang out together). It seems that you have let your personal prejudice against Mr. Minto blind you to the bigger picture. Either that or you are just plumb ignorant of how democracy works.

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  53. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Maggie – “In promoting civil disobedience Minto is following the example of leaders such as Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela, are they ”whack jobs”, too?”.

    Odd you should mention Gandhi and Mandela in the same breath, since Gandhi definitely wouldn’t have wanted Mandela in his neighbourhood.

    http://www.gandhism.net/postoffice.php

    “… In an 1894 Indian Opinion article, for instance, he again protested integration with the blacks, writing: “Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian location should be chosen for dumping down all Kaffirs of the town, passes my comprehension. Of course, under my suggestion, the Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians I must confess I feel most strongly. I think it is very unfair to the Indian population, and it is an undue tax on even the proverbial patience of my countrymen.”

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  54. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    Yeah it’s just you, MrTips.

    Haven’t read Edwards, but I find Buchanan to be always well reasoned with an astute and well-read realist background thrown in.

    This doesn’t mean he’s always correct and I’m not in his camp on this Uruwera thing either, unlike most other things. I just don’t think the aspects he highlights in this case are the aspects that should serve as the main focus in this affair. This applies whether or not all the legal i’s and t’s were covered off.

    If it turns into a legal farce and those guys get off then so be it, but it would be weakening the security position of the country, were that to happen to be mis-interpreted as a license to do it even more, and that is how some would.

    As far as I know, the law was badly framed, by Hulun, and this is why there is a problem. And as far as I can see, Paul is taking the position that this makes the prosecution wrong, and he is right. My point however is that he is arguing an important principle on a technicality and that principle is not irrelevant in terms of correctly determining a just resolution in terms of weighting.

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  55. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Paul G. Buchanan,

    Mr. Tips: In a democracy it is the institutions, rules and norms that matter, regardless of the ideological preferences and expressions of individuals aspiring to be part of the political process.

    So what you are saying then is that all forms of ‘civil disobedience’ and any other protest are wrong because the “institutions, rules and norms” are all that matter?

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  56. TimG_Oz (916 comments) says:

    Hi Paul,

    I definitely would wantto deny Mr. Minto his democratic right, but I would definietly be exercising my democratic right to tell people of what he realy stands for.

    I disagree that him being in parliament would be a good thing. However, keeping him OUT of parliament (at the ballot box) would be a great thing. I raise a parallel to the recent NSW state election. The NSW Greens have been totally hijacked by the Socialist Left, but due to the failure of Labour, they were a shoo-in (in the polls) to win seats.

    In Marrickville, the power of just one person, exposing the hypocrisy and lies of their written policies, lead to their downfall at the ballot box, and sent a clear message that divisive politics is not wanted by the people.

    Here’s hoping the same fate happens to the Mana Party – it would be a great thing for openness and tolerance for all New Zealanders.

    Thanks
    Tim

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  57. tvb (4,200 comments) says:

    Harawera’s party is going to be a political freak show. All these weirdo’s will come out of the woodwork hitching themselves to Harawera’s list hoping to get an easy ride into Parliament.

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  58. Henry64 (80 comments) says:

    Hmm – Mana, the party of angry shouty people? These people are good at organising a like minded minority to crash legitimate political public meetings to protest, usually shoiuting down a megaphone to drown out what other people have to say. If you have to shout down and megaphone and organise a rabble to shout and chant slogans it seems to me that you either cannot debate in a calm rational way or present your idea across in a way to convince the mainstream.

    Drowning out people with different views by shouting at and abusing them is a Harawira trait (as well as threatening people on a marae) and something that Minto and the other protesters are good at, but only serve to push their own limited agenda and not to serve the overall requirements of the country as a whole.

    The main thing that the country needs to do as a whole is pay it’s way in the world essentially IMHO.

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  59. Mike Readman (356 comments) says:

    According to the latest HorizonPoll, Minto’s on track to be an MP if he’s ranked in the top 3 on the list, which seems likely.

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  60. big bruv (13,249 comments) says:

    All of us who desperately want to see an end to MMP (and the likes of Bradford, Delahunty, Norman, Sykes and Minto on the public payroll] should rejoice that these people are standing in the up coming election.

    If ever we need the apathetic kiwi population to get worked up about MMP then Minto, Sykes and co are the very people to do it for us.

    As far as I am concerned the bigger the mongrel/parasite/communist the better, it will only help our cause in getting rid of the thoroughly undemocratic MMP system.

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  61. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    Harawera’s party is going to be a political freak show. All these weirdo’s will come out of the woodwork hitching themselves to Harawera’s list…

    Gee tvb I can’t understand why you would think that. I think it will be just fine.

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  62. MrTips (144 comments) says:

    Thank you for the QED Paul Buchanan. If people are elected on an ideology, then the rules, processes etc. are merely tools to get what they want and mold the country in their ideological image, ie. parliaments are elected on ideology, not process.

    Thus, the belief, or appearance of belief, in that democratic structures can somehow temper ideologies is surely naive. I do not wish to disallow or prevent Minto from running for Parliament (that is an inaccurate assumption on your part), but I am disturbed that supposedly intelligent people could think that democracy can prevent him from running amock any more than the police or common sense could over the last 30 years.

    Ignorant indeed.

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  63. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    Let me address things in reverse order.

    TimG OZ: That is exactly one of my points. It is better to let Mr. Minto and Mr. Harewera contest their ideas in the court of public opinion than deny them the right to contest, which would undermine the fundamental principle that no matter how unpopular or loathsome some views may be, they have an equal right to be expressed and to be used as a basis for competition for political office so long as they do not incite violence against others (which as far as I can tell neither of these two men are doing in spite of some tough rhetoric on Mr. Harewera’s part). So you have got in exactly right: deny them the opportunity of political office via the ballot box. That is a matter for their constituents to decide.

    bhudson: In a democracy we all have the right to engage in civil disobedience under two conditions: 1) we do not engage in acts of violence against others; 2) we accept responsibility for our actions if charged under criminal or civil law (which is one of the reasons that made that “defense of right” argument in the Waihopai 3 case so interesting). Both the general right and the specific conditions are institutionally granted and enforced. That is why institutions matter–they help prevent arbitrary application of authority.

    reid: we just have to disagree on the threat posed by the Urewera 18. I agree that their arrest and prosecution has been politically driven from the get-go.

    In general, with regard to allowing minority voices to be represented, lets think of it this way: are NZ’s democratic institutions robust enough to handle the entry into parliament of the likes of Mr. Minto? Lets assume that he and Mr. Harewera have some sort of Gramscian plan to engage a war of position by infiltrating the political apparatus with their counter-hegemonic ideology. Do you really believe that they will prosper? In order do so they will have to convince the general pubic as well as the parliamentary majority that their Left notions of “good sense” are better than the elite-driven notions of “common sense” that now permeate the electorate. Is it realistic to think that they can do as much? If anything, that is a very long term project and assumes that pro-capitalist ideologies and centrist policies will lose support amongst the public majority. It strikes me that is a very tall order even if they were to be so ambitious.

    If their political agenda is less ambitious, then their voices will have to contend with many others in the court of electorate opinion. I do not see that as particularly threatening to the Kiwi way of life.

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  64. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    I gather, MrTips, that your faith in NZ’s democratic institutions is quite low indeed.

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  65. reid (15,925 comments) says:

    I do not see that as particularly threatening to the Kiwi way of life.

    I don’t see them as threatening either Paul, but neither do I see them as beneficial, in that I can’t see they will ever offer a single policy that makes sense, ever.

    I’m happy if I’m wrong, but if I’m not wrong then they represent the beginning of a gigantic waste of time, energy and money on achieving absolutely zero. And the important thing is this. The very sectors they are aiming at are the very sectors that need the most help. And how helpful is it to the whole scheme of things if some firebrands get in amongst these very disaffected people and start telling them it’s not their fault, it’s whitey’s fault. Or do you think that won’t ever happen?

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting suppress them in anyway. Just in case you did think that. This is free-speech Arizona here. They can say what they like.

    All I’m asking is, how helpful is what they say?

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  66. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Paul G. Buchanan,

    That is why institutions matter–they help prevent arbitrary application of authority.

    Yes! We agree.! So all protestors are clearly wrong because they arbitrarily usurp authority from the institutions which you, quite rightly, place ultimate authority in.

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  67. TimG_Oz (916 comments) says:

    Thanks Paul. The only problem I see is that New Zealand still has a political system which gives these extremist outliers a far more “proportional” voice than just their percentage in a Party vote. If Minto gets in, then the 9 protesters he gets to his rally will be extremely over-represented.

    But that’s another matter.

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  68. mawm (211 comments) says:

    Maggie

    Mandela was not a n ”avowed Communist”. Gandhi slept naked with teenage girls, not prepubescent ones, in order to demonstrate his ability to overcome temptation. There is no evidence I know of that he ever molested any of them.

    Maggie, firstly Mandela was a member of the South African Communist Party. This is fact….although not well publicised. If you want I can give you references to check it out for yourself.

    Secondly, how can you be so gullible as to believe that Gandhi did not molest the girls…….the parents are hardly likely to be believed in speaking out against ‘the great man’ for raping their young daughters. BTW Gandhi was an out-and-out racist toward Africans when he was in South Africa.

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  69. Kimble (4,378 comments) says:

    Gandhi was actually FOR white rule in South Africa!!!

    “We believe also that the white race in South Africa should be the predominating race.”

    That’s Gandhi!

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  70. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    I don’t have all the answers on what NZ needs, but it needs something better than what its got. In the last decade so many absolute fuckwits have been placed in a position of responsibilty to decide what is best for the electorate, it makes me want to weep. There is no way people like Bradford, Hone, the dope smoking rasta, and now possibly John fucking Minto, should ever be allowed into parliament. I know the world is insane, does NZ really need to follow this trend.

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  71. tom hunter (4,374 comments) says:

    I was a student in Hamilton in 1981. I was staying in one of the Halls of Residence. I didn’t give a hoot about rugby or politics back then.

    Oh my god – the memories come flooding back. I’d left Bryant Hall that weekend but naturally caught up with all the news on Sunday evening.

    I clearly remember John Denny striding into the dining room that afternoon shouting “we did it!”.

    Oh yeah – that definitely pissed a lot of people off who had not got involved up to that stage. The mask was seen to drop. I think Denny himself got quite a shock when his triumphant cry did not bring the expected cheers from the crowd in the dining room, but a lot of sullen looks. There would be a lot of the same in the following week as previously vocal Tour opponents discovered that they might have gone a bit too far in fucking over the civil rights of their fellow citizens.

    A couple of hours later, around a hundred – a HUNDRED – very drunk and very angry rugby supporters turned up and started smashing everyone in sight, including me. In the end, the Police had to have a line of riot Police along the length of Knighton Road outside both my hall and the one next door to prevent wholesale thuggery.

    Hmmmm. Well, every eyewitness has a different version and I’m only going by what I was told by a number of people, including a couple inside Denny’s house:

    – their were rugby supporters smashing a few people around campus that night (and some got smashed back by students who knew how to fight back), but according to all my mates the angry crowd with the bonfire in Knighton Road made a lot of threats but did not actually try to come into the house. Scary shit all the same.

    – far from having a line of riot police the word I had from everybody was that the cops did not turn up to deal with the crowd at all, despite repeated phone calls. That would fit with the running battles in the streets outside Rugby Park, where the Police were seen to intervene only minimally. As far as any of the protest crowd could figure the Police were so humiliated by the day’s events that they were willing to let Denny and co. go to the dogs.

    Given that the rugby followers of Hamilton had assumed that every student must have had something to do with the ground invasion (hence the “smashings”), the Student Union emergency meeting the following week was also a riot as a vote was held to decide whether the WSU would henceforth be listed as neither opposing nor supporting the tour. I got my first look at how angry and hateful your average left-wing activist and politician can get when things don’t go their way. Up to that point the usual handful of “politically aware” people had dominated the sparsely attended meetings to steer things in the required directions. They got a hell of a shock when hundreds of previously apolitical students turned up and won the vote to make the WSU neutral. I thought I’d seen red, angry faces amidst the rugby crowds, but the student union people looked they were going to blow their arteries.

    Good times. Good times.

    Just as an aside I would not say Denny was gathered into the fold by Minto’s hyperbole. He was an actor in his own right on that issue over several years.

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  72. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    I was a first year student at Otago in 1981, the Bok tour really divided the people at Carrington Hall. I remember seeing the protestors and the red squad going at it on TV and I remember thinking My God this can’t be NZ, but it was. I came back from England when Once were Warriors had just been released. While watching the movie I kept thinking this sort of stuff doesn’t happen in NZ, but it does. Over the years nothing has improved, I now live in the Philippines coz I can’t be bothered with the shit anymore.

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  73. SPC (5,392 comments) says:

    Strange times, the government had pressured the local Olympic Federation from attending an international event in Moscow (1980) but would not pressure the NZRFU on hosting a local tour … .

    All these people protesting about apartheid in South Africa when at the same time there was so little activism by Pakeha in support of local Maori … it was if they (and the government) had to receive their ethical principles and human rights stands from foreign sources and could not relate them to the land they were living in.

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  74. Maggie (674 comments) says:

    Gandhi was in SA as a very young and naive man his views matured as he grew older, something some people here could emulate…..

    There is no credible evidence Mandela ever was a member of a communist party, so what anyway?

    Minto is a passionate man unafraid to swim against the tide and stand up for what he believes. By comparison the usual suspects who villify him here are intellectual pygmies adept at stone throwing but nothing else.

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  75. mawm (211 comments) says:

    Maggie – Mandela was a member of the SACP. This has beeen confirmed by Paul Trewhela, a South African historian and writer, who was a member of the SACP at the same time as Mandela.

    http://www.ever-fasternews.com/index.php?php_action=read_article&article_id=291

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  76. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Hateful Hone and nutjob Minto = political disaster.

    One is a disgusting racist and the other is batshit crazy.

    There is a God after all.

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  77. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    I suppose it is fitting though that Minto, who has apparently dedicated his “political life” to fighting racism and injustice finally ends up trying to rekindle his political career by joining forces with undoubtedly the most racist man in New Zealand today.

    He pretty much defines the word, “sellout.”

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  78. MT_Tinman (2,985 comments) says:

    Bobbie, based on Minto’s refusal to support the Indian people in Fiji when Bavadra was kicked out suggest they’re both racist, although Hone could probably argue he’s anti-human rather than just anti-white as Minto so obviously is.

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  79. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Good point MT.

    I have a lot of Fijian Indian friends and one of my nephews just married one.

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  80. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Good people in my experience.

    Have shared some great dinners with them, amazing food and civilised company.

    Hey anyone who can make leaves taste good is a friend of mine…Hindus…liked the Balinese Hindus too.

    No Hone, not puha.

    You can keep puha and piha all to yoursleves, that’s OK with me.

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  81. rouppe (915 comments) says:

    Tom

    Like I said I was one of the naive idiots that was at Denny’s house. Just to be clear I hadn’t attended any marches, protests and certainly wasn’t at the ground.

    My recollections are a bunch of people turning up at the house, and then getting beaten up. Someone else backed them off and I stumbled away. A couple of hours later there was a line of police right along Knighton Rd. Yes it took quite some time for them to arrive – I think they suffered from the student = protester attitude as well – but they did turn up in numbers. When I looked out a dorm window they went as far as I could see either side of the accommodation block.

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  82. tom hunter (4,374 comments) says:

    Rouppe

    Thanks. Always interesting to hear an eyewitness of history. I can only tell you what happened at the game ;)

    If it’s any consolation I think you did the right thing in helping defend Denny’s home, and I say that as someone who had several clashes with him over unrelated matters earlier in the year, at one stage being told to get out of the hall. I can understand the anger of the fans but that sort of behaviour was just bullshit.

    For whatever reason I was not angry at any stage during the tour; it was all living history to me and as a number of people have said, it was almost impossible to believe that such things were happening in NZ, right in front of us. Up until then many of us had bemoaned that we’d missed out on the 1960′s!!!

    Funnily enough all my troubles with Denny also included my best mate, who was very anti-tour even as I toddled along to both the Waikato game and the 3rd test. We’re still good mates to this day, which is one of the reasons I maintain a slender thread of hope for the future of the country.

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  83. Richard Hurst (755 comments) says:

    Minto as MP? Hmmm. I can imagine the overseas travel: Cuba, North Korea, Laos. Then Iran, Syria, Garza strip met the leaders of Hamas, Zimbabwe, and lets not forgot Venezuela.

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  84. Elaycee (4,300 comments) says:

    A good read through this thread provides the best possible reasons for the abolition of race based seats in Parliament.

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  85. publicwatchdog (2,099 comments) says:

    # Bryce Edwards (239) Says:
    May 15th, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    Yes, the election of John Minto to Parliament would certainly be significant. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I think what he has to say would resonate with a decent number of voters, and therefore NZ politics would be richer for his involvement. Minto is also a very impressive political activist in that unlike many on the left, his activism is supported by very strongly held principles and intellectual reasoning – he’s no lightweight or flake, but a very deep and genuine thinker that is not easily motivated by hyperbole and fads. I’d also say that I can imagine that Minto would very strongly disagree that his politics are closely related to those of the old Stalinist USSR and China. I seem to remember him being incredibly critical of those regimes.

    kiwigunner (43) Says:
    May 15th, 2011 at 2:55 pm

    John Minto and HART played a significant part in the change affected in South Africa. No lesser man than Nelson Mandela (who also fell foul of the law by the way) has acknowledged this. Minto also plays a key and thoughtful role in QPEC a lobby group working towards ensuring Quality Public Education in our country. Whether you agree with him or not he is certainly a principled and intelligent man. Those who criticise him here may be right – these may be the qualities of someone unfit for parliament right now – far better to have Double Dipton Bill and Smile and Wave Do Nothing Key, or maybe Rodney I’ll take the girlfriend Hide. Yeah Right.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I have known John Minto for over 30 years and worked alongside him in opposing apartheid and the 1981 Springbok Tour; as a member of the Quality Public Education Coalition (QPEC) when I was a welding tutor for nine years at Manukau Institute of Technology (MIT); as a member of Global Peace and Justice Auckland (GPJA) – opposing the unlawful invasion of Iraq; as a member of the Water Pressure Group (WPG) opposing the commercialisation and privatisation of water services and ‘user-charges’; as a supporter of the human rights of Palestinian people (who – after over 60 years – unlike Israel – do not have their own ‘State’); as a supporter of the Unite Union, which has played a leading role in helping to organise and defend the rights of young and low paid workers.

    It takes guts to publicly ‘swim against the tide’, and not just hold and express a view that is not ‘popular’ – at least at the beginning, when few have much knowledge or understanding of the issues involved.

    It was like that in the early 1970s when the anti-apartheid movement was building in New Zealand, and more recently in building support for the human rights of Palestinian people.

    In both these cases John Minto has not been afraid to ‘put his neck out’ and take a stand on principle.

    You don’t ‘cop the flak’ unless you’re ‘over the target’.

    Over the years – John Minto has copped a lot of flak.

    Those decent New Zealanders who believe in people getting a ‘fair go’, and take the time and effort to make a reasoned and balanced assessment of a person’s contribution will, in my opinion, give John Minto considerable respect for his hardworking efforts to help make New Zealand and the world a better place.

    To all those ‘Kiwibloggers’ who are so vicious and vitriolic in your attacks on John Minto and his contributions – might like to list the actions and activities with which you have been involved that have helped the disadvantaged, the public or humanity in general?

    What have YOU done that has helped anyone apart from yourself, your friends or your family?

    I suggest you make a list and put your name to it, then let’s compare your ‘track record’ to that of John Minto’s?

    In my considered opinion, New Zealand would be a far better place with a lot more people with the callibre of John Minto, whom I regard as an outstanding New Zealander.

    All the best John.

    Good luck.

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  86. rouppe (915 comments) says:

    Penny

    All that’s very laudable. But you would be the first to criticise a person or organisation that inflicted substantial ‘collateral damage’ in pursuit of their goal.

    John Minto doesn’t care about collateral damage. If he helps (either in reality or in his dreams) even one person, and in the course of that hurts or causes hurt to several other people, he doesn’t care about those others. He considers himself a winner and proved to be right because of the one.

    That’s my problem with him. He will run down a baby in a pram in order to be seen to help someone ‘disadvantaged’.

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  87. Elaycee (4,300 comments) says:

    So the blog blight has come out in support of Minto. No surprise there…. birds of a feather etc.

    But I’m not sure that Minto would be too happy about being supported by such a fruit loop though – after all, I presume even he has standards.

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  88. publicwatchdog (2,099 comments) says:

    # rouppe (268) Says:
    May 16th, 2011 at 9:18 am

    Penny

    All that’s very laudable. But you would be the first to criticise a person or organisation that inflicted substantial ‘collateral damage’ in pursuit of their goal.

    John Minto doesn’t care about collateral damage. If he helps (either in reality or in his dreams) even one person, and in the course of that hurts or causes hurt to several other people, he doesn’t care about those others. He considers himself a winner and proved to be right because of the one.

    That’s my problem with him. He will run down a baby in a pram in order to be seen to help someone ‘disadvantaged’.”
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Have you ever worked alongside John Minto ‘rouppe’?

    For years?

    Over a range of issues?

    Or are you basing your ‘considered’ opinion over one incident that happened 30 years ago?

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  89. publicwatchdog (2,099 comments) says:

    # Elaycee (107) Says:
    May 16th, 2011 at 9:21 am

    So the blog blight has come out in support of Minto. No surprise there…. birds of a feather etc.

    But I’m not sure that Minto would be too happy about being supported by such a fruit loop though – after all, I presume even he has standards.”
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    Come on ‘Elaycee’ – don’t be shy.

    Let’s see YOUR track record of what you’ve done to help anyone apart from yourself, your friends or your family?

    (Don’t forget to put your NAME at the bottom of this undoubtedly extensive list?)

    Come on ‘Elaycee’.

    PUT up or SHUT up?

    (yawn……………… )

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  90. Elaycee (4,300 comments) says:

    @ Penny Bright – 9.39am. “PUT up or SHUT up?”

    What a typically rude, nosey comment from a bullshitting, lefty wannabe. I have absolutely no intention of posting what I do within the community – its their business entirely and none of yours. But I suspect that a look at my ‘list’ as you put it, would prompt you to scurry back into your hideaway embarrassed that you asked the question in the first place.

    I thought you’d be spending your time more productively – such as preparing yourself for the spanking you are going to receive courtesy of the people of Howick on 27th May.

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  91. wat dabney (3,662 comments) says:

    So the plan is that Minto will help force through Mana’s apartheid policies and then, on the weekends, lead the protests against All Black tours because of, er, the country’s apartheid policies.

    If nothing else you have to admire his work ethic.

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  92. publicwatchdog (2,099 comments) says:

    # Elaycee (108) Says:
    May 16th, 2011 at 10:21 am

    @ Penny Bright – 9.39am. “PUT up or SHUT up?”

    What a typically rude, nosey comment from a bullshitting, lefty wannabe. I have absolutely no intention of posting what I do within the community – its their business entirely and none of yours. But I suspect that a look at my ‘list’ as you put it, would prompt you to scurry back into your hideaway embarrassed that you asked the question in the first place.

    I thought you’d be spending your time more productively – such as preparing yourself for the spanking you are going to receive courtesy of the people of Howick on 27th May.”
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    “But I suspect that a look at my ‘list’ as you put it, would prompt you to scurry back into your hideaway embarrassed that you asked the question in the first place.”

    I would VERY much doubt that ‘Elaycee’.

    Aren’t you the gormless, silly ‘ca$h’ cow – that is quite happy to unquestioningly pay the proposed Auckland Council 4.9% rate increase?

    Although the ‘books’ are NOT open and the consulting/contracting appears to be quite ‘out of control’?

    You obviously have more dollars than (common) sense ‘Elaycee’.

    Have a LOVELY day :)

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  93. Maggie (674 comments) says:

    mawm, Trewhela confirms nothing of the sort. He claims Mandela was ‘probably’ an SACP member. Sampson points out there is no evidence to support this.

    Why do you believe Trewhela and not Sampson?

    Why is it so important to you anyway?

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  94. emmess (1,368 comments) says:

    might like to list the actions and activities with which you have been involved that have helped the disadvantaged

    Being 100% unequivocally opposed to socialism in all it’s forms.

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  95. Fletch (6,018 comments) says:

    Just what NZ needs – a party of racist segregationists and Marxists/Greens.

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  96. Elaycee (4,300 comments) says:

    Blog blight. Stop trying to use the usual lefty bullshit tactic and moving off topic whenever the heat goes on. This thread is about Muppet Minto and the nauseating prospect that he could squirm his way into Parliament via the racist party. If you want to bleat about rates, go to GD.

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  97. BlairM (2,286 comments) says:

    Maggie – Mandela was a member of the SACP. This has beeen confirmed by Paul Trewhela, a South African historian and writer, who was a member of the SACP at the same time as Mandela.

    Of course the Communists are going to try and claim Mandela as one of their own! But he was never a communist. It is almost impossible to square anything Mandela wrote as being communist. He has had many, many communist friends throughout his entire life, including his early career as a lawyer and activist before he was finally imprisoned in his forties, but he never himself joined them. That should be telling – it’s not like he was embarrassed by associating with them, so it seems unlikely that he would be embarrassed by joining them, but he did not. No, he was an African Nationalist with some social democrat leanings, and that was it. Besides which, he was President for several years with a monstrous parliamentary majority and probably could have done a Mugabe if he’d wanted to, but didn’t. Mandela was many things, and could even be called a terrorist by some standards (although he insisted his campaigns of sabotage never deliberately targeted human beings). But a communist? By no means.

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  98. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    Someone mentioned earlier about people with criminal convictions entering Government. This is something that has always baffled me.

    I find it very hard to reconcile the fact of people who have proudly held up their “battle scars” of previous arrests and convictions, with the fact that these same people are now in Government and, as such, responsible for overseeing and making new laws – you know, like those laws they so proudly broke because they felt it was okay, that they ends justified the means.

    This has always baffled me, with people like Sue Bradford and Hone Harawira – Hone, in particular, who is quite open that if he feels it’s justified he won’t hesitate to break more laws to make his case. And I’m not having a go at Sue and Hone in particular, I realise that there are quite a few MPs in Government who have checkered backgrounds. But those are the two most obvious ones that I can think of right now.

    How on earth can they reconcile these two facts? I just find it baffling.

    (Almost as baffling as Penny Bright standing for election to an organisation on a platform that swore to demolish that organisation …)

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  99. publicwatchdog (2,099 comments) says:

    # Elaycee (108) Says:
    May 16th, 2011 at 10:21 am

    @ Penny Bright – 9.39am. “PUT up or SHUT up?”

    What a typically rude, nosey comment from a bullshitting, lefty wannabe. I have absolutely no intention of posting what I do within the community – its their business entirely and none of yours. But I suspect that a look at my ‘list’ as you put it, would prompt you to scurry back into your hideaway embarrassed that you asked the question in the first place.

    I thought you’d be spending your time more productively – such as preparing yourself for the spanking you are going to receive courtesy of the people of Howick on 27th May.”

    # Elaycee (117) Says:
    May 16th, 2011 at 1:25 pm

    Blog blight. Stop trying to use the usual lefty bullshit tactic and moving off topic whenever the heat goes on. This thread is about Muppet Minto and the nauseating prospect that he could squirm his way into Parliament via the racist party. If you want to bleat about rates, go to GD.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    You started moving ‘off topic’ ‘Elaycee’, gormless, unquestioning ‘ca$h cow’ – who is apparently happy to pay the proposed 4.9% Auckland ‘$upercity’ rates increase, although the ‘books’ are NOT open, and the amount spent on private consultants and contractors is obviously right out of control.

    Oh – you’re allowed to go ‘off topic’ to (attempt) to attack me – but it becomes ‘off-topic’ when I defend myself?

    The only one apparently ‘feeling the heat’ is yourself ‘Elaycee’.

    Can’t handle it?

    Your problem dear – not mine.

    Got to rush – have to put up more ‘NO RATE$ INCREASE’ signs up in the Howick Ward and continue to expose the Auckland $upercity ‘corrupt corporate coup’ as a rort and a fraud perpetrated upon Auckland residents and ratepayers…

    I am looking forward to the election of people such as John Minto to also help expose such corrupt corporate practices from within Parliament, as I intend to do from INSIDE Auckland Council – if elected Howick Ward Councillor in this current by-election.

    Have a LOVELY day :)

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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