Rape, Blame and Safety

May 27th, 2011 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

Andrea Vance at Stuff reports:

National backbencher has apologised for remarking “there is a real issue with young ladies getting drunk” during a debate about .

The list MP defended his comments by saying he misunderstood the question because of background noise.

And he was forced to issue an apology on Twitter after a storm of negative feedback on the micro-blogging network.

He posted: “Sorry I did not hear what she had said. So my answer was totally out of context and I know that short skirts are not provocation.”

It is very very noisy in the pub at Adam Bennett in the NZ Herald reports:

Greens co-leader Russel Norman, who was sitting next to Mr Quinn, said the National MP had turned to him and told him he had been unable to hear the presentation properly.

“He seemed genuine,” he said

I think Russel’s comments make it very clear that Paul did not hear the context to the question.

In terms of the substance, I always find it useful to differenitiate between blame and safety. In terms of blame, the victim is never to blame for being raped. Nothing justifies rape = ever.

The Lady Garden blogs:

For the record, I could give a dude a blowjob in a bar bathroom, and if he then forced himself on me, it wouldn’t be my fault. Get it?

I agree entirely.

To use a well known example, if Mike Tyson invites you back to his hotel room at 2 am, and then has sex with you against his will, you are not to blame, he is. And in this case he was convicted of rape as he should have been.

However if a female friend of mine told me that Mike Tyson has asked her back to his hotel room at 2 am, my advice would be not to go – or at least not to go alone, as you might not be safe.

Likewise if you get invited to a party at the Mongrel Mob fortress, again my advice would be not to go. If you did go, and got raped, it would be entirely the responsibility of the Mongrel Mob rapists, but as we do not live in a perfect world, reducing risk is often a sensible thing to do.

This is not just about rape. If I was wearing a $20,000 Rolex and had $50,000 of cash on me, and attended said Mongrel Mob party, then there is an increased risk I’ll get beaten up and robbed. I would be the victim, and 100% not to blame. The muggers would be to blame. However I’d probably conclude not to attend any more Mongrel Mob parties with Rolexes.

It is NEVER a rape-victim’s fault that they were attacked. The responsibility lies with the criminal, and the criminal alone. Clothes, behaviour, what they’ve had to drink, their sexual past, proclivities, and promises are no fucking excuse, and don’t come into it at all.

I agree. They are no excuse, and all the blame lies with the criminal. It is atrocious that some men can’t accept this, and commit rape. It is a hideous crime.

However, and I say this with genuine concern, one does have to accept we don’t live in a perfect crime free world. And it is worth taking steps to minimise the probability of crime. No I don’t mean dressing like nuns and being a teetotaller. I do mean however being aware that if you get pissed, you may not be as able to prevent a crime occuring. So if you are getting pissed, maybe make sure you have a more sober friend with you.

Whn going home after a night out, consider the relative dangers of walking home vis a taxi. There are some suburbs that would not be particularly safe for either men or women to be going through at 3 am. if you get mugged or raped, of course you are not to blame because you took a short cut through (for example) Cannons Creek. But knowing we do not live in a crime free society, it might be a good idea not to do so.

It would be nice if we could leave our front doors unlocked and the car keys in our cars, without them being stolen. And if they are stolen, the thief is to blame. But generally I wouldn’t recommend people leave their car keys in their ignition.

Now again, I am in no way saying that women should not go out, should not drink alcohol, should not wear what they like, just to minimise the chance of rape.  All I’m trying to say is there are some evil bastards out there, and to use some common sense when out on the town – to look after each other.

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77 Responses to “Rape, Blame and Safety”

  1. adze (1,873 comments) says:

    I agree entirely DPF. It is a pet hate of mine when people say “hey if you leave your door unlocked, it’s your fault you get robbed”. No it fucking isn’t – that sort of logic leads to all sorts of absurdities, such as “its your fault for getting mugged because you didnt take self defense lessons”.
    It may be unwise to leave your front door unlocked (depending on context), but it is not your fault.

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  2. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Quinn would fit right in at the Lakemba mosque.

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  3. Cunningham (821 comments) says:

    I agree David there is NEVER an excuse but I am pretty disgusted and shocked when you see the state some women get themselves into. Of course I would probably get called a dinosaur for saying this but I find it quite sad that women feel the need to get into such a state on inebriation. It’s bad enough to see guys like this but when you see women squatting on the footpath to take a leak you know society has some issues!

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  4. ciaron (1,318 comments) says:

    So, what we’re saying here is a bit of personal responsibility and common sense wouldn’t go amiss, but sometimes bad stuff happens to good people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people?

    It would be nice if we could leave our front doors unlocked and the car keys in our cars, without them being stolen. And if they are stolen, the thief is to blame.

    Your insurance company may not share that view :)

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  5. alex Masterley (1,491 comments) says:

    If you go down to the viaduct at night, later in the week and on weekends you will see, not a teddy bears picnic, but people of both sexes trolleyed after spending too much time in the assorted watering holes.

    They are all vulnerable to attack from low lives.

    What has astonished me in 25 years of living up here (Auckland) is that there are now numbers of young women going out an getting wasted, falling over puking and sitting in gutters. It is no longer the preserve of young men. There are any number of articles about this in the print media and on TV both news and documentries.

    I find it disturbing and so do many others. Mind you I am now old and conservative.

    Quite frankly I think that is the question that Mr Quinn thought he was answering and not drunken women being an opportunity for sexual assault.

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  6. Dazzaman (1,123 comments) says:

    Don’t know about rape but short skirts were always provocative to me! Ha. Roaming eyes & hands…you know, part of the game.

    Ah, that was many years ago….filthy looks, sharp barks and quite often….success!

    Of course mini skirts are no excuse for rape (I wouldn’t think a rapist gives a flying about what any woman wears) but you do have to help yourself safety wise as a bird. No sense getting caught in a clearly bad situation.

    Quinn is too sharp to not give himself an out here….good footballer too, that makes all the difference. ;)

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  7. Bed Rater (239 comments) says:

    “..if Mike Tyson invites you back to his hotel room at 2 am, and then has sex with you against his will, you are not to blame, he is”

    Goodness, poor old Mike Tyson, sex against HIS will and he is to blame.

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  8. rouppe (919 comments) says:

    But lets look at the statement made:

    There is a real issue with young ladies getting drunk

    He never said “they ask for it by getting drunk” and the tenor of most comments I’ve seen has been to ignore what he said and attack a statement that he never made and has only a flimsy association to what he said.

    While I agree that it is never the vistim’s fault for being raped, or robbed, consider common responses to two situations. We’ll use DPF’s Rolex example here:

    If I were to go wandering around a dodgy part of Auckland wearing that Rolex, and I got invited to ‘a party’ by a complete stranger, and then got attacked and robbed, most feedback would be of the form “Oh, that’s awful, but don’t you think you were a bit stupid doing that?”

    In a situation where a woman gets blind drunk and wanders around an unsafe area alone, or accepts an invitation to ‘a party’ from a complete stranger and then got raped why are we not allowed to say “Oh that is truly barbaric, but she was a bit stupid doing that”?

    It is a sad fact that the community has within its ranks people with no regard for anyone else. Predators for want of another word. Knowing that, it is the responsibility of every individual to assess the risks around them and respond appropriately. I think that responsibility includes maintaining enough sobriety to assess those risks.

    A rapist is barbaric. A rapist never has a defense to their act. But neither can you jump into a dangerous animal’s cage and then be surprised that the animal attacks you.

    [DPF: The sad thing is that they are humans, not animals. I don't believe in collective sins, but there are times when as a man I am disgusted by what other so called men do]

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  9. James Stephenson (2,040 comments) says:

    It’s never the rape victims fault but it’s not rape if, in the cold light of a hungover morning, you regret what you did whilst pissed the night before.

    [DPF: Actually that depends. If you are so impaired by alcohol, you can be deemed to be incapable of giving consent.]

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  10. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    It a symptom of a country gone PC mad when statements clarifying intent have to accompany commonsense advice in case someone with paper thin sensitivities gets offended.

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  11. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    What I find amusing is the difference in the outrage expressed by some over Quinns comments, and the opinions expressed by some of the same people with reference to Darren Hughes.

    In any case, I see no difference in what Quinn said, and the advice I would give to my own daughter in keeping herself and her friends safe.

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  12. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    Quinn would fit right in at the Lakemba mosque.

    Missed the point entirely didn’t you cha.

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  13. Bob R (1,340 comments) says:

    ***For the record, I could give a dude a blowjob in a bar bathroom, and if he then forced himself on me, it wouldn’t be my fault. Get it?***

    No, but you need to understand there is a crucial difference between acknowledging a cause and blaming the victim.

    Similarly with the Canadian police officer who said women could can avoid being sexually assaulted by not dressing like “a slut.” He was acknowledging a cause: women whose outfits are designed to turn men on, are at a higher risk of attracting a rapist. That’s just acknowledging reality.

    Similarly, the blond American journalist who wandered through a mob in Cairo in provocative (by local standards) attire.

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  14. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    In a situation where a woman gets blind drunk and wanders around an unsafe area alone, or accepts an invitation to ‘a party’ from a complete stranger and then got raped why are we not allowed to say “Oh that is truly barbaric, but she was a bit stupid doing that”?

    I understand your point, but would like to suggest that not all men that a particular young lady does not know is a potential rapist. Its not stupid if say a couple of girls meet a couple of guys and make plans to move on to somewhere else later in the night. Some men, just need to learn to control themselves.

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  15. ciaron (1,318 comments) says:

    It is a strange fate that the sage advice to not make ones self a target is met with such outrage.

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  16. Farmerpete (39 comments) says:

    Well I am sure glad some of you folk aren’t advising my daughter (including DPF). Yes, the attacker is entirely to blame for the attack, but the victim is also (sometimes) responsible for increasing the probability of getting attacked. Vulnerable people (including young women) have to understand this. Safety is a daily habit. My daughter might feel safe in her home without the door locked, but making locking the door an automatic behaviour increases her safety and decreases her risk.
    Unfortunately, for some people, who are wired incorrectly, certain dress and behaviour communicates the wrong signals. Until I can be sure young (or old) thugs don’t behave this way anymore I will continue to advise the women in my family how to keep themselves safe by covering their evening wear until they get to the venue, not going out alone in high risk areas, not consuming too much alcohol etc.
    In this respect I don’t give a stuff about what other people think. I have had a daughter assaulted through no fault of her own. She was under 10, and we let her go to the dairy on her own, in broad daylight. Man, what a learning experience. But life is about balance, so we can’t be paranoid either. All this equally applies to our sons. They might not get raped, but they can have the stuffing knocked out of them by taking the risky path.
    Pete

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  17. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    There is a real problem of girls getting hammered. Police stats indicate that over 90% of girls claiming to have been drugged and raped had no drugs in their system other than the alcohol they had willingly consumed. They got hammered and fucked someone they shouldn’t have then regreted it. Thats not rape, thats stupidity reinforced with alocohol.

    You don’t throw chum in the water in the water and get to be suprised when the shark takes your leg off.

    Supply and demand. Stop supplying so many bloody easy victims.

    Fix the problem not the blame or you’re not doing anything to change the situation.

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  18. GPT1 (2,091 comments) says:

    The story was a bit rubbish – particularly the headline which implied Quin was defending his comments as being justified in the context of rape. He was not.
    Credit to Russell Norman for not trying to score points.
    In reverse Chris Hipkins is being a prat trying to say that Quin was being disgraceful, acknowledge that it is noisy and say that is no excuse all at the same time. Desperate dude.
    Avoiding being a victim is always better than being able to say it was the attackers fault. In the wider context there is nothing about being sensible and taking precautions that gives any suggestion of an excuse to an attacker.

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  19. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    Similar advice applies to young men. They’re not to blame if they’re sexually assaulted by a Labour MP and had to flee the scene leaving their clothes behind. But they were still unwise to accept a position as a Labour Party sponsored Youth MP, or to accept an invitation to Annette King’s house after an evening spent drinking.

    What is really wrong in this situation is that most of the parliamentary Labour Party sympathised with the Labour MP. Imagine what the reaction would have been if a young women was raped after a night out on the town and Paul Quinn had said the rapist was a nice bloke and it was sad he’d lost his job as a consequence.

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  20. cla (18 comments) says:

    The ignorance of some of the comments here astounds. Ask any 200 level Criminology/Psychology student: rape is not a crime committed because a rapist has a particular sexual attraction to a victim. A rapist commits a rape from a desire for power and domination. That is why little old ladies in their homes alone are raped. Rapists are opportunists, but they don’t sit in bars waiting for the hottest girl in the shortest skirt to leave. Why not? Because she will be noticed. They attack women who run by themselves early in the morning, or they force entry into homes of women living alone.

    I repeat, again. Rape is not a crime of sexual preference. It is a crime of dominance and desire for power. This is why it is not the fault of any rape victim and the way they dress. As a young woman myself, I agree totally with DPF. It is never the fault of the victim, but I take precautions to make sure I am never in a situation where I am at high risk to myself (getting taxis, not going to known areas of crime late at night).

    As for all the commentators being ‘disgusted’ at ‘young women’ – get over yourselves. Men have been getting on the piss and behaving revoltingly for decades, hell, centuries, on the piss. Young women might have started doing it over the last ten years to the extent reported: but think about why? Young people learn by example. We have a culture where many people drink to excess regularly. That wasn’t always going to remain the purview of males. The fact that it takes until women get in on it as well for you to call it disgusting is shockingly sexist and archaic. It was always disgusting – you just didn’t care, because you were the ones doing it.

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  21. Longknives (4,472 comments) says:

    Rapist are lowlife scum-But the ‘impaired by alcohol’ comment David made got me thinking. Are we talking forcible ‘rape’ here or a silly young girl waking up in the morning a little hungover (beer goggles worn off) and upon realising that the guy isn’t the ‘Brad Pitt man of her dreams’ or possibly might not call her again , crying ‘rape’ for attention/revenge/or even to save face with her boyfriend. Because it sure as hell happens….

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  22. Pete George (22,868 comments) says:

    Good comments cla.

    Longknives – I’m sure many women (and men) have morning regrets. I’m not so sure how many of them charge rape.

    Some men are predators, preying on drunk women.

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  23. cla (18 comments) says:

    The presentation was in regards to slut-shaming: the process by which all rape victims are classed as sluts because the general populace side with rapists by saying “she shouldn’t have been wearing those clothes/drinking that much, she’s a slut”. This is reference to all rape. Rape, by definition, forcible.

    Any person who “cries” rape and is found not to have been raped does the process and real rape victims harm. As do people who slut-shame all, and diminish the impact of rape on rape victims.

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  24. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Missed the point entirely didn’t you cha.

    Noting Quinn’s attitude mirrors that of Shiek al-Hilali is the point Bevan.

    btw, slut walk

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  25. RRM (9,478 comments) says:

    Well said DPF.

    I take it you will be doing all of Paul Quinn’s press releases and PR stuff from now on?

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  26. Longknives (4,472 comments) says:

    Pete- I have a good friend whose life was destroyed by a false rape claim. The guy was approached by a girl in a bar and spent the night with her. Many months later her boyfriend found out. An allegation was subsequently made by the shamed girl that her drink had been ‘spiked’ by my ‘evil rapist’ friend (The heaviest drug this guy takes is Disprin!). This guys life was quickly in tatters. After a year of police interviews, the humiliating experience of friends and family being interviewed, two suicide attempts and a career/reputation in tatters this guy eventually received a letter from police thanking him for his cooperation and that no charges were going to be laid.
    Oh It happens alright….

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  27. Neil (556 comments) says:

    Paul Quinn would be the poorest performing National member. He constantly interjects rubbish and is no asset to National.
    I would certainly hope he is well done the list in the forlorn hope he will not get back in again.He looks as though he is shunned by other National MP’s.
    I still remember DPF praising Quinn before the last election. What do you think ?

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  28. nasska (10,696 comments) says:

    cia

    Young blokes who get themselves fried are often the targets of violence….following on from your correct summation that rape is violence women who get themselves sufficiently inebriated that they sit in gutters outside nightclubs will be equally targeted by predators.

    It is a fact, if an unfortunate fact, that those with most to lose should take the greatest care.

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  29. Chuck Bird (4,687 comments) says:

    Has anyone heard if there has been any progress made in the case of Darren Hughes? I have heard comment by women – when did the young man not thump him one. If the victim was a female he would be charged by now.

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  30. Pete George (22,868 comments) says:

    I know it happens Longknives, it’s as serious an offence as rape for the victim and as cla says “does the process and real rape victims harm”. I was just wonderig how prevalent it is, especially compared to actual rape (as opposed to convicted rape).

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  31. ross (1,454 comments) says:

    It’s not my fault if my place gets robbed, but I do make sure to lock the doors and I also have contents insurance!

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  32. Zapper (926 comments) says:

    A disgusting girl I vaguely used to know decided she needed to work at a brothel to supplement her student allowance. Her boyfriend found out and broke up with her, at which point she cried rape. He was immediately thrown in jail for several weeks, during which time she stole everything he owned. He was eventually found not guilty but lost everything.

    It is just as vile as actual rape and anyone committing either offence should be locked away for a long time. Unfortunately, it seems only one of the 2 offences is punished.

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  33. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    Noting Quinn’s attitude mirrors that of Shiek al-Hilali is the point Bevan.

    I wonder if David will start handing out demerits for blatant lies one of these days.

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  34. reid (15,981 comments) says:

    Aposite to this general topic, have a look what the French press are doing to DSK’s accuser.

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  35. rouppe (919 comments) says:

    cla

    First you said:

    It is never the fault of the victim, but I take precautions to make sure I am never in a situation where I am at high risk to myself (getting taxis, not going to known areas of crime late at night).

    Then you said

    As for all the commentators being ‘disgusted’ at ‘young women’ – get over yourselves. Men have been getting on the piss and behaving revoltingly for decades, hell, centuries, on the piss.

    Your messages are mixed, you can’t have it both ways. You are right in your taking of precautions. The same precautions that every person – male or female – should take at all times.

    Yes young men have been getting pissed. The difference is the ensuing risk. The pissed man does not present as vulnerable a target as the pissed woman. Thus his risk is less.

    I also disagree with you saying that a man who has a prediliction towards rape doesn’t sit around waiting for a hot woman to leave. You are assuming that such a person would always hide in the shadows waiting to strike, and not be in a public place. Some will, as shown by your examples of old women living alone. However there are also some men who are bitter at being rejected, who might think ‘that woman would never look at me, I’ll show her now’. Maybe she spurned him earlier in the night, maybe he was just dumped, maybe he’s an ugly sucker with body odour issues, whatever. You cannot rule out an opportunistic strike on someone who by getting wasted has rendered themselves vulnerable.

    Everyone needs to do their risk assessment properly. You don’t have to have gone to university to realise that a wasted woman is more at risk than a wasted man. When I was at Waikato it was the 101 Piss Drinking class – i.e. O-week – that drummed home the message that you looked after your mates – male and female. Seems these days females don’t look after their mates so well.

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  36. Scott (1,710 comments) says:

    Cannot agree with your comments from Lady Garden — that is just ridiculous!

    The problem is that everyone behaves so badly, plus a bit of feminism chucked in, it all seems so ridiculous. For my mind woman do have to behave a lot better. A woman should not dress in revealing clothing, get drunk, commit lewd sexual acts with random males and think everything is going to turn up roses. That’s just not the real world. Both men and women behave very poorly in our society today.

    I would like some more standards. I would like less drunkenness and much more moral restraint around sexual activity. I think you Liberals, of which DPF is one, are just being mugged by reality. That’s why modern liberalism, with its licentious lack of morals, is out of step with reality. If you behave in a modern liberal manner then these type of consequences are far more likely.

    How about a few old concepts being revisited — purity, moral restraint, sobriety, concern for one’s neighbour — that would do for a start.

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  37. PaulL (5,875 comments) says:

    On those who think that this is a problem confined to women – there is actually a significant amount of male on male rape. And a very low reporting rate – it isn’t considered particularly acceptable for a male to report homosexual rape – particularly if he’s not gay. Anybody who gets themselves into a situation where they’re not aware of their surroundings is at risk of violence.

    On the question of rape of a drunk women, there is a world of difference between two inebriated people having sex, and (something I know people who experienced in my youth = not a new problem) drunk and unconscious women being raped. Back in the day people thought that was something to do, and I doubt it’s changed nowadays. If you’re unconscious or substantially inebriated you cannot protect yourself – you’re a target for rape. Male or female. Complaining about it in the morning isn’t changing your mind – you were unconscious.

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  38. rouppe (919 comments) says:

    DPF:

    The sad thing is that they are humans, not animals. I don’t believe in collective sins, but there are times when as a man I am disgusted by what other so called men do

    David, humans are animals. It’s evolution that has brought the capacity for humans to reason, think, and have morals. Most have evolved well. Some have been wrenched into the 21st century but haven’t actually evolved much beyond the stone age.

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  39. Kimble (4,383 comments) says:

    Failure to mitigate harm is still worthy of blame even if you are the victim and the crime is horrendous.

    If a zookeeper maintains lax security of a lion enclosure, and a lion gets out and hurts someone, the zookeeper is to blame. If its the keeper that gets hurt, the keeper is still to blame. The lion is to blame as well, but you give it a pass because it is in its nature. But what if it was not a lion, but an animal that is usually tame, and only occasionally aggressive? Still, the keeper is to blame.

    They had a duty of care to others, and themselves.

    The blame that victims might have is different to the blame that the criminal has, but it is still blame.

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  40. rouppe (919 comments) says:

    Bevan

    I understand your point, but would like to suggest that not all men that a particular young lady does not know is a potential rapist. Its not stupid if say a couple of girls meet a couple of guys and make plans to move on to somewhere else later in the night. Some men, just need to learn to control themselves.

    Absolutely. Risk assessment. You can’t assess risk properly if you are wasted.

    You are right, some men – and women – have yet to evolve a bit further than the stone age.

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  41. rouppe (919 comments) says:

    Scott,

    Liberalism is not the same as a lack of morals. Liberalism means that women who don’t want to don’t have to wear a chador.

    Women should not dress in revealing clothing, get drunk, commit lewd sexual acts with random males and think everything is going to turn up roses

    No, people should not get drunk, commit lewd sexual acts with random males people and think everything is going to turn up roses.

    I don’t go out and get hammered anymore variously because I can’t be bothered, I have a family now, and its not ringing my bells anymore. I think its more public now because there are more venues now. It used to happen in suburbia. Now it happens in the city. I’m not sure its any worse now than the 80′s and 90′s, just more visible, and yes, women are paricipating more.

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  42. Jman (84 comments) says:

    Men have been getting on the piss and behaving revoltingly for decades, hell, centuries, on the piss. Young women might have started doing it over the last ten years to the extent reported: but think about why? Young people learn by example. We have a culture where many people drink to excess regularly. That wasn’t always going to remain the purview of males. The fact that it takes until women get in on it as well for you to call it disgusting is shockingly sexist and archaic. It was always disgusting – you just didn’t care, because you were the ones doing it

    I feel properly chastised. All these centuries I’ve been whoring and wenching to my hearts content. Now I should just let the ladies have their turn. /sarcasm – I’m confident that none of the potential rapists out there are the ones who have been behaving revoltingly for decades and centuries because they weren’t alive then.

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  43. iMP (2,248 comments) says:

    So, is scanty clothing just a fashion statement among street prostitutes? why do they dress this way? Economy?

    Rapists are always to blame (in the end a choice is made over another person’s welfare and humanity) but isn’t there a wider societal cause-and-effect (as the Merovingian would say) to do with our attitudes toward provocative eroticism, sensuality in advertising, the over sexual-isation of public life, young men and access to alcohol, blah blah blah.

    Is it the match’s fault things went boom, or the gunpowder because it is explosive?

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  44. PaulL (5,875 comments) says:

    Jman – rape has happened forever. Women are (maybe) getting drunk more often now. Even that I’m not convinced on, I remember plenty of drunk women in my youth. Including one young lady at a party I was at who was apparently drunk and passed out, and one of the guys at the party was trying to roll her over to “get into her”…she threw up on him, and this was a source of merriment for his friends. I heard about this from other people at the party a couple days later – I was pretty young then…probably 16. I remember thinking that there was something wrong with this picture, but at that age didn’t quite draw the conclusion that was rape.

    Point being not to review my youth, but to say that drunk women have probably been raped, as have sober women, over time – it’s not a new phenomenon. And whilst rape is a domination thing, it is also sometimes a sex thing. And there are men out there who think sex with an unconscious women is a great thing to do……so being drunk and unconscious isn’t a great idea unless you’re in a safe environment. And, as I said before, a women in this situation sobering up and then complaining hasn’t “changed her mind.”

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  45. Ed Snack (1,740 comments) says:

    cla, level 1 and 2 pysch students may well have been taught that “rape is power, not sex” but that doesn’t make it actually true. That information has been the received wisdom for some years, but the experimental and real world evidence supporting it is remarkably thin. It is almost certainly correct to attribute some of the motivations to domination, but more recent research has indicated that the desire to have sex is most definitely not an insignificant motive as well. Thus “provocative” dress and behaviour can affect the risk that one may be targeted for a sexual assault of some sort, but it certainly isn’t the only determinant.

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  46. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    A few year ago I got pissed one night and found myself out on the street being followed by a couple of characters (Im male).
    Purely by luck I ran into someone I knew who was a fair bit more sober than I was – and boy was I glad.
    I got off that night without being mugged and having my cards and keys taken.

    If I had of got mugged I have no doubt that it would have been my fault, and some discrete enquiries to the insurance company some time later made it clear that if my car was taken and damaged,and the insurance company found out that I was pissed, then theyd kick the claim into the never-never.

    I find it difficult to think that a young women thinks she can get pissed and flake out in – say courtney place – and think that if she gets raped that her behaviour didnt contribute to the result. Sure – the rapist is at fault, but he was offered an opportunity where he thought that (as she was flako) that he would get away with it.

    I think the argument that her behaviour shouldnt be taken into the process is unfair to all those young women who believe that and got get pissed and raped. Thats just crazy.

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  47. Trevor Mallard (245 comments) says:

    Some people might want to look at what Quinn said, and contrast it with his claims http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2011/05/27/quinn-on-rape-he-said-he-now-says-he-didnt-hear-the-question-i-say-he-did-twice/

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  48. Johnboy (15,021 comments) says:

    Nice to see the Labour campaign strategist working feverishly on all the important stuff.

    Goofy and Daffy.

    An unbeatable team. :)

    (Only in Disneyland of course). :)

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  49. thedavincimode (6,539 comments) says:

    Why don’t you just fuck off you shit smearing bag of pus.

    Even the crazy melon supports his story – why would anyone believe the crap on your blog?

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  50. adze (1,873 comments) says:

    barry:

    If I had of got mugged I have no doubt that it would have been my fault, and some discrete enquiries to the insurance company some time later made it clear that if my car was taken and damaged,and the insurance company found out that I was pissed, then theyd kick the claim into the never-never.

    I make a distinction between the wisdom of ignoring perceived risk of others’ behaviour, and culpability for others’ behaviour. If you were mugged because you insulted them while you were pissed, then you might share some culpability for being mugged. But just for being on your own and pissed? No way. The fault is all that of the muggers. You might be called foolish, but that’s different to a moral judgement.

    Kimble:

    Failure to mitigate harm is still worthy of blame even if you are the victim and the crime is horrendous.
    If a zookeeper maintains lax security of a lion enclosure, and a lion gets out and hurts someone, the zookeeper is to blame. If its the keeper that gets hurt, the keeper is still to blame. The lion is to blame as well, but you give it a pass because it is in its nature. But what if it was not a lion, but an animal that is usually tame, and only occasionally aggressive? Still, the keeper is to blame.

    I don’t think maintainting a lion enclosure at a zoo and wearing skimpy clothing in town are comparable. We don’t ascribe moral agency to animals regardless of our evolutionary similarities. Furthermore care of a zoo enclosure is a professional responsibility, so it is negligent to let a lion out whether it hurts someone or not. But someone you meet in town is responsible for their own actions. You get into perverse territory very quickly otherwise. Drive a flash car? It’s your fault for flaunting it to the guy who just coined your paintwork. Etc.

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  51. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    Trevor Mallard>Some people might want to look at what Quinn said

    Some other people might want to look at what Trevor Mallard said when a sex pest colleague of his caused a young man to flee Annette King’s house without his clothes:

    “He is a young man who is exceptionally talented and he’ll be a sad loss to the Labour Party and to Parliament”

    Sympathy for the victim? None.
    Statement that a rapist is responsible for their actions, rather than his victim? No.
    Compliment for the alleged offender? You bet.

    Maybe Mallard misheard a question and thought he was being asked to say something nice about an accused sex offender?

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  52. Chuck Bird (4,687 comments) says:

    Davidp, well said.

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  53. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    Trevor Mallard should also remember his own criminal history. He famously assaulted Tau Henare. Obviously the victim of an assault shouldn’t be blamed for the assault… the blame lies entirely with the attacker. However:

    “Prime Minister Helen Clark said through a spokesman that both men should “look in the mirror”. ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/12723/Punch-was-stupid-Mallard

    Yep… Helen Clark BLAMED THE VICTIM in a comment that is really no different from telling a rape victim that she too should look in the mirror.

    For the satisfaction of seeing defendant Mallard in the dock:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/159742/Mallard-pleads-not-guilty-on-assault-charge

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  54. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    A self-aware Trevor Mallard would also reflect on this incident:

    “Mr Mallard saying he would like to ram a Heineken beer bottle up International Rugby Board boss Vernon Pugh’s and Australian Rugby Union boss John O’Neill’s “particularly uncomfortable places” after New Zealand lost its hosting rights in the lead up to the 2003 Rugby World Cup.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10472078

    Because Paul Quinn REALLY needs advice from a man who thinks anal rape with a bottle is joke material.

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  55. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    @davidp – bravo, bravo. C’mon Trev .. got an explanation for your hypocrisy? (being a politician and/or Labour man doesn’t count …)

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  56. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Murray>They got hammered and fucked someone they shouldn’t have then regreted it. Thats not rape, thats stupidity reinforced with alocohol.

    You are presuming they took an active part in sex, rather than passing out and some lowlife taking advantage of her, while she’s in no state to object.
    Each case has to be treated individually, you can’t generalise one way or another.

    Longknives >Are we talking forcible ‘rape’ here or a silly young girl waking up in the morning…

    The fact that happened to your friend is, of course, dreadful.
    But again it doesn’t mean you can generalise either way.
    And of course people were talking forcible rape, or what would be the point of the discussion?

    Kimble>The blame that victims might have is different to the blame that the criminal has, but it is still blame.

    Imagine you’ve been bashed, mugged, burgled, whatever (and I’m sure you’ll say you’d never be so stupid as to get into that position, but bad stuff happens sometimes, however cautious we are) – how would you feel then if someone told it was your own fault?
    You’d be beating yourself up enough already, without having some unsympathetic person rubbing your nose in it and telling you “you were asking for it”.

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  57. Kimble (4,383 comments) says:

    Mary Rose, nobody is talking about rape victims being stood up in front of the community and accused of bringing the crime on themselves. Quite frankly, anyone who thinks that is the case is a fucking moron.

    Saying someone is not to blame for something implies that they couldnt have seen it happening, or if they did, couldnt have done anything different to avoid it.

    When people are told that there is no blame put on the victim of the crime for that persons own actions, then it reinforces the idea that they dont have to do anything to mitigate the risk of being a victim of that crime.

    We want the potential victims to realise as much as possible that they have a responsibility to protect themselves from having the crime committed on them.

    A drunk driver smashes into your neighbours car, and your neighbour dies only because he didnt wear his seatbelt. Of course the drunk driver is to blame for his death. But your neighbour is also to blame for his own death.

    Now imagine that your kids are being told that he was completely blameless, and those people shout you down when you try to point out that that wasnt entirely true. Unlike this analogy, the blamelessness of rape victims is one of those trite things that is repeated ad nauseum, and is much more likely to affect peoples behaviour simply through repetition.

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  58. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Kimble>Mary Rose, nobody is talking about rape victims being stood up in front of the community and accused of bringing the crime on themselves. Quite frankly, anyone who thinks that is the case is a fucking moron.

    You’re right. No one IS talking about rape victims being stood up in front of the whole community.( Except you?)
    I was responding to your apparent heartlessness towards victims.
    Whether it was your intention or not, it read like your attitude is: ‘Raped? Tough, you brought it on yourself.’

    >We want the potential victims to realise as much as possible that they have a responsibility to protect themselves from having the crime committed on them.

    I never said otherwise.
    Of course they should. But people make mistakes.
    Using those mistakes to educate others is one thing. Making out ‘she asked for it’ is another. Which is also what happens ‘ad nauseum’.

    >Unlike this analogy, the blamelessness of rape victims is one of those trite things that is repeated ad nauseum, and is much more likely to affect peoples behaviour simply through repetition.

    Do you actually think women put themselves in risky situations because they’ve been told rape victims are never to blame?
    Or your neighbour didn’t wear his seatbelt because he knew if he was killed, people would sympathise?

    People make mistakes. If others take advantage of those errors, they are the scumbags.
    You can educate your kids to wear seatbelts without being heartless about your neighbour in public.

    And it’s late, so I’m out of here for today.

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  59. James (1,338 comments) says:

    As humans we learn by our mistakes….if we are smarter than the average human we learn from the mistakes-of others and avoid committing them ourselves altogether.

    Ascribing some blame…in the context of “what could have been done with a bit of thought to mitigate the chances of what happened happening in the first place” is a valid and quite frankly necessary process for our growth as human beings and the survival of our species in general.Of course getting in the face of a crime victim and saying ‘you were so asking for it” is unconscionable in the immediate aftermath of the event……but reflecting on and questioning the choices made that did lead to the event can prove invaluable in avoiding a repeat performance and in that context it is not only morally valid but crucially important.

    “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” is an old and respected maxim for a very good reason….its stone cold true.

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  60. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Kimble – on subjects like this, if you have a penis you’re probably
    (a) thinking with it
    (b) wrong
    (c) guilty
    (d) to blame
    (e) hiding something
    (f) altogether dastardly and scumbag-like

    Your same reasoning, applied to other areas of life, would probably have you noted as considered and wise. Ah well.

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  61. James (1,338 comments) says:

    Yes…..the gender collectivism that swirls around this issue is nauseating at times…

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  62. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Ok, really last word this time.

    >.Of course getting in the face of a crime victim and saying ‘you were so asking for it is unconscionable”

    Has it occurred to any of you there could be rape or other crime victims reading this thread?

    That they realised pretty darn soon they’d made a mistake?

    That they are really 100% totally determined never ever to repeat it?

    But that still, possibly many years later, they don’t appreciate people of either gender telling them they were in any way to blame for what happened?

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  63. Kimble (4,383 comments) says:

    Mary Rose said “You’re right. No one IS talking about rape victims being stood up in front of the whole community.( Except you?)”

    Go fuck yourself.

    Seriously. Fuck you.

    I had just finished saying that the point isnt that rape victims should have someone tell them that they deserved it and then you go and accuse me of that very thing.

    I make the sober, mature point about the risks of avoiding impersonal cautionary criticism in favour of reciting modern, trite, empty-headed drivel, and the first thing you think to do is accuse me of being uncaring to victims of abuse.

    You are either a disgusting person who feels good accusing people of that, or you are too stupid to realise how unbelievably offensive you have been.

    Either way, you have pissed away any right to civil conversation.

    Fuck you.

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  64. Longknives (4,472 comments) says:

    Mary Rose- I wasn’t “generalising” or trying to demean the victims of genuine sex attacks in any way. I was just making the point that there are often in fact two sides of the story. Nowadays ‘regretful drunken sex’ can become twisted into a traumatic and horrific experience for the sometimes completely innocent male party… Re my friends case- It is also worth noting that even after completely wrecking my friends life, wasting hundreds of hours of police time and tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills this silly/’lying through her teeth’ girl was never even reprimanded in the slightest way by Police for her completely fabricated and malicious complaint.

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  65. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Kimble,
    You said:
    >the first thing you think to do is accuse me of being uncaring to victims of abuse.

    Having previously said:
    >Failure to mitigate harm is still worthy of blame even if you are the victim and the crime is horrendous

    and later
    >your neighbour is also to blame for his own death.

    Forgive me if I read that as unsympathetic to victims of criminals.

    >Now imagine that your kids are being told that he was completely blameless, and those people shout you down

    If you don’t say it in public, what people will there be to shout you down?
    And do you not think this forum is a pretty public place?

    >You are either a disgusting person who feels good accusing people of that, or you are too stupid to realise how unbelievably offensive you have been.

    Or I made one stupid mistake once and paid for it.

    And I did say, BEFORE you became abusive: “Has it occurred to any of you there could be rape or other crime victims reading this thread?”

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  66. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Some years ago there was a court case where the accused claimed that his (criminal) action was due to the fact that his mother didnt breast feed him , and that this was the reason he did what he did. ie: it wasnt his fault.
    This was the beginning of the current social state where (some) people are of the opinion that its usually “Not my fault” – its due to someother reason. We now have a society where we are always looking to find any reason for bad behaviour rather than include the concept of personal responsibility.

    In fact a business associate of mine once suggested that this “blame anyone but the real causes” was becoming so widespread that he thought we should start a business called ‘Blame Inc’ and business moto was to be “We will find someone to blame for your indiscretion – no matter how innocent they are” .
    Of course it was all a bit toungue in cheek but i think accurately refelected the wierdness of this idea that personal responsibility wasnt part of the rules of living.

    I think its misleading to push this idea that its (ie:bad outcomes) are all totally always someone elses fault. That simply leads people into bad situations and quite frankly is in itself as criminal in my mind as the person who carries out – in this case – the rape. Telling young women that its OK if they go out dressed like a prostitute and getting drunk to the point of losing self control is – in my mind – a criminal act in itself – its otherwise known as ‘aiding and abetting’.

    And from the comments on this subject its obvious that there are plenty of people who think aiding and abetting is just fine…..

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  67. Kimble (4,383 comments) says:

    Mary Rose, you are an idiot because you think that recognising there can be blame on the part of the victim for the situation they were in is the same as telling that victim they brought it on themselves or deserved it.

    You are a moron because you think that the way to care about people is to never admit that any victim ever did anything to put themselves into that predicament.

    You are a simpleton because you think that discussing issues like this in a public place is the same as addressing rape victims directly.

    You childishly insist we ignore uncomfortable reality in favour of promoting a comfortable lie.

    You are selfish because you prefer your comfort over the promotion of responsible safe behaviour.

    But you go ahead and spend the rest of your life telling everyone how nobody who was ever raped could have done anything to avoid being in that situation.

    The rest of the adult population will ignore you because they know that there are lots of ways to avoid being raped, and that not all victims took advantage of them. They wont say anything because retards like you will accuse them of exactly the thing you accused me. Instead it will be your voice and the voice of all stupid people like you that will be the loudest, and society will be all the dumber and riskier for it.

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  68. CharlieBrown (910 comments) says:

    I think there needs to be a shift in the balance the law has on date rape. When a man and a women both get blind drunk, then go home and have sex, only for the women to say she didn’t consent, then the law should never even entertain the idea that she was raped. Even if they both get blind drunk and while in bed they got frisky then she said “no!”, but he rapes her anyway, the police shouldn’t prosecute unless witnesses are found; I know its harsh but being falsely convicted of rape is worse than rape in my books, the guy may be a scum rapist in that case but you just can’t prove it and there are probably as many irresposible girls that cry rape when it was a drunken hookup as there are guys who actually raped in that situation.

    I’ve looked back on my past and realised how lucky I was not to be falsely accused. I remember getting pretty drunk a few times out clubbing and meeting a girl as drunk as I was then going home and screwing. I remember there being some times where I woke up next to her and wasn’t sure if we even did it.

    The law is so screwed in NZ that only men can be found guilty of Sexual violation. If a women date rapes a man the charge is less than when the reverse happens.

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  69. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    “For the record, I could give a dude a blowjob in a bar bathroom, and if he then forced himself on me, it wouldn’t be my fault. Get it?”

    No, I don’t ‘Get it’ to tell you the truth. Surely if you are stupid enough to put yourself at risk of being at the mercy of the kind of fuckwit that would engage in getting blow-job in a bar-room bathroom, you must, somehow, accept some culpability if said fuck-wit then rapes you. Unless you are living in some kind of la-la land. It’s called ‘risk-assesment’. If I may be so bold, I’d also suggest that this kind of moronic sentiment is just the kind of simplistic, reductionistic idiocy that encourages naive young women to put themselves at risk, under the mistaken impression that life is governed by ‘a right to choose’, regardless of the situation.

    How on earth is it consider empowering to some poor soul who is brutalised, raped or worse, that they were ‘technically in the right’ when they asserted their ‘right to say no’ to some dead-beat with a hard-on?

    Get real, FGS.

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  70. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Kinble
    >You are a simpleton because you think that discussing issues like this in a public place is the same as addressing rape victims directly.

    What part of YOU ARE ADDRESSING A RAPE VICTIM DIRECTLY have you not worked out?

    And I don’t need you or anyone else to tell me I was silly to get into a position he was able to exploit.

    I blame myself. Very much.

    Happy now?

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  71. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    Oh, and for the record, he got away with it.

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  72. James (1,338 comments) says:

    If so Mary then we are all sorry for you and wish you eventual peace and justice.

    What the men here are saying is that WE, Men ourselves,fully acknowledge that some of our fellow males are scum bags and a threat to Women and we are frustrated that this fact seems to be blanked out by some Women to their own great harm.

    We can foresee the likely outcome for young, naive Western girls going to what they think are glamorous jobs in the Japanese bar hostess industry and instead end up as drugged up sex slaves to some Yakuza boss and his clan.

    We know in advance what’s likely to happen to Western female reporters when caught up in the midst of a riot of sexually repressed Arab men in Egypt….or young, female American UN volunteers who go out walking in certain areas of the Middle east and get dragged into alleys and gang raped.

    In short we can reason and apply historical knowledge to potential future events…..and when proved right we are going to say so…..because it may just do some good in the future.

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  73. Mary Rose (393 comments) says:

    James, of course women should try to minimise risks and anyone getting really drunk has to accept some responsibility for the consequences. (I wasn’t drunk, btw: just trusted someone I thought I knew).
    But I think it’s a given that they do – after the event. They will tell themselves over and over ‘if only I’d done this, not done that’.

    Sadly, you can tell young people all you like not to get drunk, to always wear a seat belt, whatever, some will only ever learn the hard way that you are not just being a killjoy.
    Especially when you are in your late teens or so and think parental concern is just fussing and nothing can possibly happen to you and you are quite capable of taking care of yourself.

    Girls going out with friends to bars or parties imagine they’ll be safe, because they start out with friends and plan to stick with them and share a taxi home… only it doesn’t always go to plan.
    And they’re not going to want to go clubbing wearing a nun’s habit and sticking to water (however much their parents would prefer it!)

    Why are teen driving death/injury stats high in proportion to overall figures? Because kids think it can never happen to them. I believe young brains are actually wired to under-perceive risks.

    At the other end of life, there is no reason for any elderly person now not to know it’s a bad idea to let a stranger into the house to ‘check the water pipes’. Or to believe the letter saying ‘you’ve won the Spanish lottery, send us your bank details…’
    But people still fall for it, because they are too trusting. “He seemed like such a nice man.”

    And sure, use it to educate others not to repeat the mistake. It’s the idea of BLAME I find harsh.
    The person who made a mistake has been harshly punished for it. Being told it’s your own stupid fault and you accept that doesn’t help you get over the trauma.

    I don’t know if the reporter was under pressure from her bosses to get the story, or keen to get a scoop, or what. I’d say telling UN volunteers where the no-go areas are was an automatic and common-sense responsibility of those above them.
    I’d also hope any naive girl promised a job at a Japanese bar or whatever would have someone to tell her it’s a con before she goes.

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  74. James (1,338 comments) says:

    Well said Mary.

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  75. rimu (51 comments) says:

    Don’t go out and get drunk, it could lead to you getting raped. Also, don’t have sex with someone because it could get you raped by someone they know. Don’t be young, that could definitely get you raped. While we’re at it, especially don’t be a child, that could really get you raped. Don’t be older either, that can get you raped. Don’t be living in a nursing home; women get raped there. In fact, what are you even doing in an establishment like that, are you asking for it? Don’t be single; single girls are sluts. Sluts get themselves raped. Don’t be married either or you could get raped by your husband. Don’t go jogging, that is just irresponsible. Don’t go to carparks, that can get you raped. And really don’t go jogging in a carpark, that is like so going to get you raped. Don’t go to public toilets, that can lead to rape. Don’t be dying; dying women get raped. Don’t ever be unconscious for any reason whatsoever, you’ll get yourself raped. Don’t be injured either. Raped. Avoid being physically disabled. Raped. And particularly avoid being intellectually disabled. You couldn’t get yourself more raped. Don’t go out alone, that is dangerous and you could get raped. But don’t accept lifts either; that is just asking for trouble. Don’t ever be naked, it could get you raped. Don’t wear clothing in which I could imagine you naked, that could get you raped. Don’t wear short skirts, they attract rape. Don’t wear baggy clothing or pyjamas or hospital gowns or a hijab either, women get raped in all those too. Don’t have a father, brother, uncle or grandfather. You could get raped by one of them. And oh my god, don’t even think about having a step-father. So raped. Don’t be ugly or you could deserve rape. Don’t be beautiful, you will be too tempting. Don’t flirt with men, this can get you raped. Don’t be rude to men either – playing with fire. Don’t take public transport. Raped. Don’t drive your own car, what if someone hid in the back seat, you could get raped. Don’t sell sex or anything close to it. Raped, raped, raped. Don’t be mistaken for someone who might sell sex. Obviously, you would get raped. Don’t be a soldier, a waitress, a teacher, a police officer, or a hairdresser. All these women can get raped, sometimes by their professional colleagues. Don’t dance, it could lead to you getting raped. Don’t relax, what if it made you look like you wanted it. Don’t be stupid, that will surely get you raped. Don’t be naive, you’ll deserve what comes to you. Don’t be adventurous, that is being stupid and stupid women get raped. Don’t be silent, who can be expected to know you didn’t want to be raped. Don’t be intimidated, that can signal weakness and will get you raped. Don’t be trusting, don’t be in awe, don’t be flattered by anyone – that could so get you raped. Especially don’t be female, that could really get you raped, although being male could get you raped too, so don’t do that either. And don’t be interesex or trans, people will think rape is for your own good.

    http://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/dont-get-raped/

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  76. Bob R (1,340 comments) says:

    Don’t use paragraphs either :-)

    Also, Rimu I think you’re missing the point. There are rapists out there just as there are sharks in the sea. It makes sense to think of ways to minimise the risk.

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  77. Elaycee (4,305 comments) says:

    @Mary Rose.

    There are no words that can adequately express my disgust that a fellow male has subjected you to rape. I note from your post that you knew (and trusted) this person and yet it still happened. His actions were appalling and I can but hope that, one day he’ll get the justice he deserves.

    In the meantime, I sincerely trust that you are receiving any support you require.

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