Agreeing with Hone

June 18th, 2011 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

blogs:

I understand that my going to Church last week has offended some members of MANA, and that my attendance and speech have been seen as an endorsement of ’s stance on homosexuality.

That is not so.

I value the broad support that MANA has attracted from all sectors of our society, and I owe it to everyone to explain things from my own point of view.

You see … like everyone else I have gay people in my whanau, and like everyone else I also have straight people in my whanau, and like everyone else I love them all.

I would sincerely hope that my attendance at the Destiny hui is not seen as an endorsement by either myself or MANA of the views held by Bishop Brian Tamaki and the Destiny Church, in the same way that I hope my attendance at the Mormon Stake Conference on Saturday is not seen as an endorsement of their more unsavoury racial practices of the recent past, or my attendance at an Anglican church service seen as an endorsement of their practice of stealing Maori land over the centuries.

I broadly agree with Hone on this. A politician accepting a speaking engagement is not an endorsement of everything the host stands for – far from it. MPs should and do attend meetings held by groups they disagree with, and this is a good thing.

Do we think John Key endorses all the CTU policies when he addresses their national conference?

Only the most extreme groups should be considered out of bounds for an MP to speak to – basically neo-nazis and others that preach hatred.

Now I am no fan of Destiny. To my mind they come closer to the “should not address under any circumstance” group than many others. They are cult-like.

But they do actually do some good with their social services, and now that they are not also running a parallel political wing, they are not as big a threat as they once were.

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45 Responses to “Agreeing with Hone”

  1. larryq (66 comments) says:

    Yes, but did you see the way they all grovelled at the feet of Tamaki and the whole blessing business was wierd. They were all to a man, gutless wonders in the presense of the Bishop.

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  2. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Destiny are no more cult like than those goose’s at Ratana whose pockets everybody pisses in.

    Why the fear of Destiny DPF? I don’t see you criticizing Mormons or Jehovah Witness’ for their strange beliefs

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  3. Pete George (23,476 comments) says:

    I agree with needing to meet with groups you may not necessarily agree with, but similar to what larryq says it didn’t look mana enhancing the way they were lined up by the Bishop – and the impression I got was they weren’t very comfortable with it.

    They were used, and they knew it.

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  4. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Religious nutters use the organisation that is their church to make forays into the political scene on a fairly regular basis. Fortunately they fail equally regularly & we continue to live in a secular society.

    Any politician associating with a religious group is after the votes they represent…..nothing less & nothing more. Thus they take a calculated risk on how their presence is seen by the rest of their electorate.

    Mr Harawira must think it’s worth the risk.

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  5. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Why do people outside Destiny refer to Brian Tamaki as a Bishop? In his case, the self-serving title has as much validity as Napoleon proclaiming himself as Emperor.

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  6. Nick K (1,231 comments) says:

    Only the most extreme groups should be considered out of bounds for an MP to speak to – basically neo-nazis and others that preach hatred.

    And the ACT Party according to the PM.

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  7. davidp (3,580 comments) says:

    larryq>Yes, but did you see the way they all grovelled at the feet of Tamaki and the whole blessing business was wierd.

    Very weird. But not the weirdest religious story of recent times where a group of Ratana people have decided that Harawira’s coming has been predicted in prophecy:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5157000/Ratana-doesn-t-support-Harawira

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  8. Viking2 (11,412 comments) says:

    DPF said:
    Do we think John Key endorses all the CTU policies when he addresses their national conference?

    Well unfortunatley DPF your favourite subject and mine of the issue of youth rates it seems he does.

    Yesterday in GD I blogged this form yesterday’s news.
    DPF, we are being heard in high places. (at long last) perhaps!

    Concerns raised over return to youth rates
    Last updated 15:58 17/06/2011

    The Government is not ruling out a return to lower rates for young workers.

    Prime Minister John Key this month indicated National would campaign on further changes to labour laws – and did not rule out reinstating a youth minimum wage.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5159373/Concerns-raised-over-return-to-youth-rates

    Hurry up and get on with the job so we can employ some and get somer of these bored adolescents out from school where they just get into trouble.
    Its not that fucking hard. Just change the bloody rules Wilkkey.

    BUT today here is what they have to say:

    PM downplays a youth rates return
    JOHN HARTEVELT
    Last updated 05:00 18/06/2011

    Suggestions the Government is eyeing a return to a lower youth minimum wage have prompted widespread outrage.

    But both Labour Minister Kate Wilkinson and Prime Minister John Key have downplayed the prospect of a return to youth rates.

    “There’s clearly something wrong” with the high unemployment rate of teenagers, Ms Wilkinson said yesterday.

    PM downplays a youth rates return
    JOHN HARTEVELT
    Last updated 05:00 18/06/2011

    Suggestions the Government is eyeing a return to a lower youth minimum wage have prompted widespread outrage.

    But both Labour Minister Kate Wilkinson and Prime Minister John Key have downplayed the prospect of a return to youth rates.

    “There’s clearly something wrong” with the high unemployment rate of teenagers, Ms Wilkinson said yesterday.

    DPF.
    Now its clear from the article that those making the noise are CTU sycophants and opposition politicians and they hold more sway with the PM than do ordinary Kiwi families and National/Act voters.
    As with other issues such as mining, the Nats get shit scared of sticking to their core beliefs the moment some better organized thug in politics rear their noisy heads.

    The PM needs to back himself on these things and stop listening to the educated fruit cakes that have never owned or worked in a business world that needs to trade goods and services for money.
    Many of them don’t have families or have been blessed with an endless stream of money from some welfare fund somewhere.
    One commentator comments on pushing old people out of work. Well as one of those I can name probably 30 people who would love to retire. Mostly they need to sell their businesses but for that to happen younger people have to step onto the bottom of the ladder. Clearly that’s another socialists plot to destroy capitalists. They never stop those communists.

    Youth violence in schools is escalating and no one has yet proposed the logical thought that it is because kids are frustrated with the way politicians have taken control of their lives. They are banned from working, they are banned from having a job that pays relative to their skills, and generally have had their employment rights completely usurped by the state.

    The sooner the PM grasps the mettle and makes the change the better. There is 250000 votes in it for the election in 2014 if he gets on with it and does it right.
    We don’t need schemes, that just more socialism we need employment rights.

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  9. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Only the most extreme groups should be considered out of bounds for an MP to speak to – basically neo-nazis and others that preach hatred.

    Yes snap Nick but I was thinking of the lefties and their attitude to the Business Round Table. Your point however is also real and both are equally mental, aren’t they. Shame that some otherwise astute people strangely fail to see either one or the t’other, isn’t it.

    Anyway as I said on GD last night, I feel sorry for the Ratana faithful for having anointed Hone as the young man from the North who carried the treaty in one hand and the Bible in the other for I fear they’ve omitted to perceive that only one of Hone’s hands holds either of those things and guess which one he holds?

    This is an important oversight I feel in a religious movement, but I await developments with great interest as Hone moves through the anointing process with his mum looking on proudly. Quite frankly, the best thing for Hone would be to team up with Destiny. Destiny, Ratana and Hone would make a formidible if ill-balanced force but it could work if wisdom prevails and while both Ratana and Destiny too have it, Hone doesn’t, although he is intelligent and he knows enough to control his ego long enough to make it seem to his base that he actually does give a shit about them (which he doesn’t of course, Hone cares about Hone – Hone’s pretty good). He’s got a bigger ego than Key. That’s how big it is.

    However a Ratana/Destiny/Hone alliance is Hone’s best hope of a power base that breaks into the people with money demographic and frankly, no party can survive without that demographic.

    Destiny BTW IMO is a necessary component because Ratana are the nice guys. They’re very wise and astute but they don’t have the personality to bash G-d into Hone’s head like Bishop Tamaki does and that’s what needs to happen if that alliance would ever ever work and even then it may not work.

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  10. Viking2 (11,412 comments) says:

    DPF. Sorry the above post of mine is about the topic but goes off the topic to make the point.

    I wasn’t able to edit the post to say so as the editor seems to stumble sometimes.

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  11. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    The post makes a couple of good points. Speaking to a group is not an endorsement of that group. It is good for politicians to to interact with a broad range of groups and opinions. There is always the likelihood that well-put contrary views might change minds, or at least open them slightly.

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  12. Viking2 (11,412 comments) says:

    Nah, pollies just don’t listen, especially ones that need to rule everyones lives.

    Time you got that into you head MM.

    Once you understand that the world will become clearer.

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  13. Bobbyisback (3 comments) says:

    Prediction:

    Short-term: Hone loses to Labour in his requested bi-election.

    Long-term: Hone is jailed for a a crime.

    Wanna place money on it hey bro?

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  14. Angus (536 comments) says:

    “Why the fear of Destiny DPF? I don’t see you criticizing Mormons or Jehovah Witness’ for their strange beliefs”

    Because unlike most other church groups in this country, Destiny speak out against the behaviour of a special protected class of super-citizens, in which the politically correct elite (like DPF) have afforded them special victim status and thus deemed them to be beyond all reproach . . . . Queers

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  15. backster (2,152 comments) says:

    I don’t often agree with VIKING these days but his comment today is pretty close to the mark.

    I would sooner associate with the Destiny crowd than the nut cases in Hone’s Mana party. Anyhow how does Mr PENE and his Ratana crowd know that the ‘Young man from the North’ who would arise as their new messiah isn’t a reference to Bishop Tamaki, and not Hone.

    Finally HONE says “You see … like everyone else I have gay people in my whanau, and like everyone else I also have straight people in my whanau, and like everyone else I love them all.”………He doesn’t say if he has pakeha in his Whanau and if he loves them too.

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  16. KevinH (1,219 comments) says:

    Destiny Church, Ratana Church and the Mana Party are all cults. They all have in common a man who professes to deliver them from evil. Sadly in this day and age where people should know better, the cultists’s exploit their naivety.

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  17. PaulL (5,970 comments) says:

    I don’t get why not having a political wing makes Destiny less of a threat. They’re a threat to my mind because of them preying on the weak of mind, and taking their money. Having said that, worse things have happened, and politicians can’t really decide to just not associate with groups of voters…..hardly going to win elections that way. Witness Brash with the Brethren.

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  18. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,887 comments) says:

    Actually, it’s those fundamentalist athiests who the the most dangerous lot of all.

    They actually made it into gummiint a d screwed us all blind for none long years.

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  19. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Destiny Church, Ratana Church and the Mana Party are all cults.

    Actually none of them are Kev. The Mana Party is simply Hone’s vehicle and it will never go anywhere until someone wiser than he leads it. He’s a good number two, capability-wise but he’s an idiot leader cause he tilts at windmills. He opens his idiot mouth all the time and commits himself to any number of idiotic things without thinking them through. He just shoots from the hip, all the time. He’s an idiot. Now the first rule of a real cult leader is: don’t be an idiot, otherwise it won’t work and the band will simply stop playing very early indeed, way before the aliens arrive to transport us all to a better place. It’s simple logic Kev.

    Both Ratana and Destiny are real religions, not cults. The Ratana founder is long dead but the movement he started continues, proving it is not a cult. There is something spiritual there which keeps it going, and cults don’t normally survive past the death of their leader, almost by definition. If it was something evil in the spiritual realm going on with Ratana then I’m sure instead of being peaceful sober well regarded people the Ratana followers would instead be doing all sorts of evil things but they don’t, do they so I choose myself to regard it as a true religion, not a fake one and not a cult.

    Many people who look at Destiny seem only ever to look at Tamaki’s lifestyle and I’m afraid that’s not the Destiny movement and you can’t possibly judge that movement by that one narrow dimension. I take the very simple view that apparently, Destiny produces results. Apparently, thousands of families are better off, lifestyle-wise, attitude-wise, self-respect-wise, by attending Destiny. I don’t care that it tithes. So what. So do other religions? So. What? I also don’t care that Tamaki has a lavish lifestyle and enjoys it. So. What? The results I refer to speak for themselves and the fact that Tamaki rarely speaks publicly leaving most interviews with his apparently capable and intelligent staffers, indicates to me anyway, that he’s not a control freak in that he’s quite happy to delegate significant responsibility to others. As a Christian I also have noticed that Tamaki always puts G-d first and he is always careful in his comments to praise Him for His works He has achieved at Destiny. For of any non-Christian readers, this is precisely what you are supposed to do if you genuinely profess the faith. Some people probably think he’s just another Jim Baker of US tele-evangelism fame and I admit Tamaki could be interpreted to be that. I personally don’t think he is, but I understand why people could think that. However, all I can say is:

    Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him. Pro 26:27

    That’s what happened to Baker, will it happen to Tamaki? Let’s just wait and see.

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  20. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    reid

    Agreed that Ratana qualifies as a true religion/church & it is obvious that “Mana” is simply a vehicle for one man’s ego.

    Destiny is not so simple to analyse. While it is true that it has done quite a lot for its followers, as an organisation, it is too new to pass the litmus test to determine its status as a religion or sect. If it is still around fifty years after Mr Tamaki slips his mortal coil without having a belief that he will arise from the dead as a tenet of faith, then & only then would it be safe to describe it as a true religion.

    Regardless, the exalted bishop has plans for the future & they definitely include a tilt at political power. Anyone desirous of high office needs a power base & the Destiny organisation will provide this. His may be a behind the scenes role but I’m certain that he sees the church as having reached its potential & Mr Tamaki is a very ambitious man.

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  21. Aredhel777 (290 comments) says:

    “Anyway as I said on GD last night, I feel sorry for the Ratana faithful for having anointed Hone as the young man from the North who carried the treaty in one hand and the Bible in the other for I fear they’ve omitted to perceive that only one of Hone’s hands holds either of those things and guess which one he holds?”

    LOL

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  22. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    it is too new to pass the litmus test to determine its status as a religion or sect.

    Yes I concede that nasska.

    they definitely include a tilt at political power

    I’m not so sure as you but maybe. He’s an interesting man of G-d anyway. More like Joseph of the amazing dreamcoat than how a priest normally behaves. We’ll see. I just hope Tamaki can bash G-d into Hone cause he needs to lose his inbred feral hatred which is deep in him and the only thing that I think can do that is the love of G-d and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

    If Hone does lose that hatred he currently has then he could be one if not the most outstanding leaders in his generation but if he doesn’t he’ll never be much more than an also-ran.

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  23. Shunda barunda (2,977 comments) says:

    This issue was always about anti Christian bigotry and the liberal left can scream “thou shalt not!!” all they bloody well like, but don’t for a second call it anything other than what it is, BIGOTRY.

    Shameless hypocrites, defenders of intellectual bigotry and dangerous as hell.

    For me personally, I couldn’t care less what two grown men want to do with their bodies, but I happen to find the idea of sticking a penis up an anus more than a little bit gross.

    That doesn’t make me a bigot, it just means I am not into that crap!

    There is a difference between holding an opinion on certain sexual acts and persecuting those that do them.

    While I am no fan of Brian’s form of Christianity, I struggle to see a single example of them persecuting homosexuals, including the ‘enough is enough’ episode, holding an opinion is not persecution.

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  24. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    reid

    I’ll be watching Hone to see how it pans out but I fear that the hatred is so deeply instilled into him by his wretched mother that it is probably there to stay. I’m also a little more cynical than you & I think that Ratana & Destiny are no more than a handy source of bloc votes & will be ignored after November.

    If Hone is the answer then I’m unsure that I want to know what the question is.

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  25. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Shunda

    There’s never a shortage of bigots regardless of the topic. It’s worth considering although that one side’s committed idealist is the other sides bigot….it’s all in your point of view.

    Nothing galvanises a bigot’s opinion quite like back up from similarly indoctrinated people. Socialist organisations & churches use this facet of human nature to their advantage. It may, on my own personal level, explain why I can get on with individual Christians but not groups of their fellow worshippers.

    Destiny’s stance on homosexuality is never likely to test the tolerance of the average New Zealander for simple reason that their message will never resound with sufficient people for their ideas to get traction. Similarly the homosexual way of life is for those who are homosexual & except for those who flaunt it passes unnoticed in the general community.

    In the absence of compulsion in matters of sex & religion & so long as an individual is free to join & leave any organisation at will it is simply none of my business.

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  26. Inky_the_Red (756 comments) says:

    I watched Hone on Seven Days last night on TV3. A huge contrast with him on that as the image portrayed by the media.

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  27. Johnboy (16,059 comments) says:

    “You see … like everyone else I have gay people in my whanau, and like everyone else I also have straight people in my whanau, and like everyone else I love them all.”

    Now if only Hone had said.

    “Like everyone else I have White people in my whanau, and like everyone else I love them all.”

    We wouldn’t hate the racist little shitbag so much! :)

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  28. backster (2,152 comments) says:

    PAUL L said “I don’t get why not having a political wing makes Destiny less of a threat. They’re a threat to my mind because of them preying on the weak of mind, and taking their money. ”

    Well haven’t the Labour Party and the Unions been doing this for years?

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  29. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    Destiny, for all its faults, is still a part of the Body of Christ, and I like to think that the Holy Spirit is at work among them despite their Bishop being a complete twat.

    (as for the term “Bishop”, my understanding is that it’s a pretty generic term to describe the leader of a group of local churches, so not an unreasonable thing for Bishop Tamaki to be called. Still doesn’t make him any less of a twat)

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  30. Shunda barunda (2,977 comments) says:

    Well haven’t the Labour Party and the Unions been doing this for years?

    Exactly. It is in human nature to both exploit and be exploited.

    Being a rational person has nothing to do with being an atheist, humanist, or sticking your dick up some ones backside.

    Irrationality is just as much a part of ‘social progressives’ as anyone else.
    Time to give up the delusion.

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  31. Shunda barunda (2,977 comments) says:

    Destiny, for all its faults, is still a part of the Body of Christ

    Is it Blair? and how have you established that?

    I can accept that individual Destiny members may be part of the “body of Christ” but do you really think that Jesus would endorse “Destiny” the organisation?

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  32. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Shunda

    It seems to me the Destiny is a real church, and is similar to many other contemporary christian churches. It also seems to me that Jesus would struggle to endorse any of the churches that use his name (in vain).

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  33. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Exactly. It is in human nature to both exploit and be exploited.

    Crikey is it? Excellent.

    Now, how can I exploit this?

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  34. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Ratana & Destiny are no more than a handy source of bloc votes & will be ignored after November.

    Both of those won’t tolerate being ignored. Hone won’t be able to. If Hone walks away from his Ratana anointment he’s a fool. If he also walks away from Tamaki’s ministering, he’s an idiot.

    I personally think hope he’s neither.

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  35. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Does it matter if they’re a cult or a church? That’s like worrying about whether someone’s a maoist or a stalinist before you fire the teargas

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  36. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    reid

    If what I’ve read so far is correct Hone has received endorsement from one Ratana congregation in Auckland. The rest of the church is following tradition & sticking with Labour. Hone hasn’t received much support from his electorate backing his overtures to Destiny either.

    To date his little crusade may break even in terms of votes won/lost. The chances are that Hone’s rump support of disaffected Maori are not great fans of any established religion since they blame the Anglican Church & others for taking tribal lands.

    I don’t think that Hone is as bright as you consider him to be. Supporters may see him as a leader of charisma but basically every time he opens his trap he puts a foot in it. Practice makes perfect & by November I’ll wager he’ll fit both feet & socks in his gob effortlessly.

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  37. Johnboy (16,059 comments) says:

    “If what I’ve read so far is correct Hone has received endorsement from one Ratana congregation in Auckland.”

    That’s good. At least he will have a nice band to play at his funeral after the election.

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  38. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    One word – ‘relevance’. Who gives a toss about these self-important pronouncments about the credibility of Destiny??

    Meanwhile Hone apppears to be dead in the water here. he went too early and the Maori party are out to neutralise him, preferring Labour to get in, rather than Hone. Why are his vague pronouncements about Destiny even getting traction? As the Leader of a Party? Well that appears to be seen at present that is in name only… If he bombs out at the by-election, he have relegated himself to the sidelines for ever.

    Like I say – what is the relevance of this? that we get to read some airy opinions about nothing in particular?

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  39. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    You’re forgetting the valuable contacts he’s made at Destiny. The service by no less than a Bishop, music courtesy of Ratana & a burial made possible by JCB.

    Probably get 2000 mourners & at least sixteen of them would have to take a day off work.

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  40. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    I can accept that individual Destiny members may be part of the “body of Christ” but do you really think that Jesus would endorse “Destiny” the organisation?

    Jesus doesn’t endorse any sinners. Nor does he endorse churches – he spent quite some time in the early chapters of Revelation telling off a few of them. The question is whether they endorse Jesus, and this they do, albeit with a few red herrings.

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  41. Johnboy (16,059 comments) says:

    Jesus!!!

    I just hope that Jesus really appreciates just how many people he still has down here telling everybody what he thinks: :)

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  42. LabourDoesntWork (287 comments) says:

    What’s creepy is when a religious organisation/church is essentially telling its members who to vote for. The Ratana Church is the only such example I’ve heard of. Perhaps Destiny is another–I don’t know.
    Just a few months ago One News reported on Ratana Church’s continued (and open) alliance with the Labour Party. (If I remember rightly the context of the story was the rocky ground, politically, Labour was under Phil Goff. The story’s tone was relief at Ratana’s continued support of Labour despite their ‘problems’.) The media did this without any self-consciousness at all despite having made such a huge deal a few years earlier about a few well-heeled Exclusive Brethren members individually supporting National. Ok, maybe Don Brash knew about it – so what? Seems the Labour party and their PR mouthpiece, the media are just fine when a politically homogenous church openly endorses a *left-wing* political party.
    Substitute Destiny/Exclusive Brethren for Ratana, and National for Labour and think of the stink that would be made of such an alliance with or endorsement of, National. The Ratana thing has been going on for years, but that’s… different. Why?
    Because when *leftism* is the religion of choice you’re accepted. The left is only threatened or concerned if you’re politically opposed to them. It’s why truth and intellectual consistency is never the issue. The Left must oppose the Right because it is constantly trying to justify its own existence. Even Islamofascists get a pass: the silence of the left (feminists in particular) on Islam’s treatment of women exposes them like nothing else. Siding with the Right even when it self-consistent to do so, (consistent only with what they *profess* – as suits them for a time) is out-of-bounds because it undermines the only thing important to it: its power. And so any group the left appears to favour gets thrown under the bus, should the Right have an opportunity to gain a foothold, no matter how inconsistent it makes them appear.
    IMO leftist ideology could be described with some accuracy – as pathological narcissism applied politically. It’s an endless stream of deeply manipulative positioning offset with ceaseless slander of their political enemies (c.f. “gaslighting”).

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  43. Shazzadude (526 comments) says:

    The Exclusive Brethen was an issue for Brash because he was seen to be dishonest about his dealings with them. Had he been upfront about it and maybe pointed to Labour’s relationship with Ratana, it wouldn’t have been an issue.

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  44. Pete George (23,476 comments) says:

    Naive and totally unrealistic, or a blatant attempt to buy votes with our money? Disagreeing with Hone.

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  45. Richard (130 comments) says:

    Naive and totally unrealistic, or a blatant attempt to buy votes with our money?

    Pete, in all seriousness, isn’t that comment the sort of mudslinging and political point scoring you’re party is against?

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