Was this an alcohol issue?
June 13th, 2011 at 2:24 pm by David FarrarAll teeange deaths are tragic. The families never recover, the friends are traumatised, and a life full of potential is wasted.
I had two classmates die in a car accident in Year 11. It took a long time to get over that, and even today I think of them several times a year.
The James Webster death was due to alcohol, and few would disagree that the ease of supply of alcohol to under 18s needs to be changed – and there are law changes proposed around that.
In relation to the death of David Gaynor, Labour have said:
Labour is calling on the Government to implement all of the Law Commission’s recommendations on alcohol reform in the wake of the death of a King’s College student following his school ball.
I have to be very careful here as there are strict legal restrictions on what I can and can not publish. However what I can say is that I do not believe alcohol was a major, or arguably even minor, contributor to this awful tragedy. To the best of my knowledge this is not a James Webster case, or even particularly similiar.
So politicians who use the death to demand particular alcohol law changes are, I will be charitable, potentially misguided.
My sympathy goes out to the family and friends of David.
June 13th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
David,
Assuming that what I’ve heard is correct, that this is something that is best discussed by coroners and not MPs.
[DPF: I agree]
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
as tragic as it all is, i am sick of everyone using the events of one person (or even a smattering of one persons) tragic events as a reason to penalise everyone else.
i am not a big drinker (hell i am not a small drinker), and can;t stand drugs, but there is no reason to penalise those who do not abuse (by design or accident) substances becuase of those who do.
Labour, the greens and maori party are the worst as this sort of thing, kunping on one event as a reason to change the law for all of us, but national seem to be heading that way.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
I agree with dog’s comments.
Vote:I very much doubt that alcohol was an issue.
I’m disappointed that a politician has opened her mouth without waiting for the dust to settle.
June 13th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Nothing to do with alcohol at all…how can the MSM get this so wrong. Even in some cases such as the Herald which has got the closest to the true facts it is not clear at all how he died. People I have talked to are convinced he died of alcohol poisoning/drug overdose which is not the case! Should these restrictions be changed?
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
“what I can say is that I do not believe alcohol was a major, or arguably even minor, contributor to this awful tragedy”
I haven’t really been following this at all but from the headlines in the media I was under the distinct impression (like many New Zealanders will be) that this was an alcohol related misadventure??
Vote:That’s certainly how it is being ‘hyped’…
June 13th, 2011 at 2:48 pm
Media are treading the edge of lying about things here.
One of the 4 kings children, died from a heart defect.
That certainly was non-alcohol related and it is despicable for the news reporting agencies to use this case as some kind of link to an alcohol problem at Kings.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
A lot of teenagers experience life’s little ups & downs very intensely, and some seem to experience them more intensely than others.
I don’t know anything about the story, but I can’t see any good reason yet why so many people are talking about booze & drugs as though it is established that those are factors in this.
I had the misfortune of driving a company car this morning that was briefly tuned in to Radio Fuckwit Laws, and the peeps there were having a field day of “it’s the drugs” and “it’s the booze” and “teenagers these days, I don’t know…” etc etc as though they had a direct inside line on the whole thing.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:03 pm
Sue Moroney is showing the same degree of good taste as shown by the fuckwit reporter who rang Brian Gaynor a day afterwards to ask how he felt about it all! No taste, no class, no style, no sense of decency whatsoever.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:06 pm
Wreck. Of the 4 deaths;
Vote:1 was due to a heart defect,
1 was due to alcohol poisoning,
2 were due to other causes.
It is difficult to link the deaths together as the MSM appear to be.
I think it is because of the school the lads attended.
June 13th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
King’s is a good school with caring and supportive teachers and staff… unfortunately there is a drinking problem there as with many other schools. I would hate to see the school get the rap for any alcohol-related deaths or other issues that come to light (keepign in mind only James Webster died from alcohol). I believe the problem lies with parents who give their kids too much freedom and too much money. I attended King’s some years ago and one thing that was noticeable were the huge parties thrown for Years 12 and 13 students, often with parents there, security at the gate and alcohol supplied inside.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
@simon mitchell.
You suggest this tragedy was alcohol related.
Perhaps it wasn’t.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:21 pm
@elaycee. see my first comment (2nd from top). Pay closer attention…
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
The despicable socialists alreading trying to make political hay out of this tragedy.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:38 pm
***Law Commission’s recommendations on alcohol reform ***
Regardless, they should be implementing the raising of the age level anyway given the problems associated with its lowering.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@simon.mitchell: Yup – I’ve read both posts. For reasons I’m sure you’ll appreciate, it’s inappropriate to comment further at the moment, but some comments in your 2.47pm post are wide of the mark.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
The old “…was a factor…” trick is beloved by wowsers (especially those in traffic and police departments) to justify yet more restrictions on our freedoms.
If I snort cocaine, hop behind the wheel of a car with no WoF and bald tyres, put on a blindfold and career downhill while receiving the oral attentions of a paid companion, provided I’m travelling at 110km/h it’ll be noted, in censorious tones, that “speed was undoubtedly a factor” in the accident. As indeed it was. As indeed was the fact that it occurred on a day ending in “day” and that the car had four wheels and an engine.
We need to be very careful in attributing causation, particularly where the topic is the prevention of harm or death. If we permit people to conflate all sorts of nonsensical information and arrive at conclusions which support their prejudices (and, in some cases, their desire for a bit of easy roadside revenue raising) then we risk minimising, or overlooking, factors which were also contributors.
With young men and road accidents – speaking generally here, not specifically of either case DPF mentions – the heady effects of testosterone often have as much to do with the reckless and deadly behaviour as does alcohol.
We need to start, as simon.mitchell hints at, by openly discussing the cause, whatever it may be. To do otherwise does a disservice to the memory of the young man in question, whose life – and its tragic end – could serve to better inform all of us, and especially his peers.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:47 pm
Rex, I feel obliged to commend your excellent opinion on this matter. Superbly expressed.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Rex – you may be right. But now is not the time to speculate (and that’s what both Sue Moroney and Simon Mitchell are doing) on the events that led to this tragedy.
Of course there may well be a lesson for kids and parents alike from this tragedy, but until such time that the facts are presented (in the fullness of time and ideally by a coroner), then surely the ideal scenario would be for everyone to refrain from guesswork.
Based on what I’ve seen and heard today, its clear that some perceptions are wide of the mark.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
“If I snort cocaine, hop behind the wheel of a car with no WoF and bald tyres, put on a blindfold and career downhill while receiving the oral attentions of a paid companion”
PJ O’Rourke seemed to have done this quite frequently without mishap. Give it a go Rex!
Masterley
It mightn’t have been the school – it may just have been down to the need to follow up on the hard-hitting expose/scoop/revelation/shock/horror front page probe regarding the Mexted family trust litigation (complete with All Black record) that was splashed across the front page last week. That was always going to be a hard act to follow and maybe they felt this was the way to do it.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Elaycee,
The coroner will deal with Mr Gaynor’s death.
I can only hope that the circus that surrounded James Webster’s coronorial enquiry will not be repeated.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
“I can only hope that the circus that surrounded James Webster’s coronorial enquiry will not be repeated.”
Touche.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
My reading of the dompost was he got home and then went out again, the parents thought he was at home.
so he may well have died at home if he hadn’t gone out.
Was he pissed, it doesn’t say.
either way kids and alcohol is an issue, mainly because adults let them have it and set the example often times.
drunk Adults behave like utter prats all the time in public and some of the drunk adults make life shit for others who aren’t.
some of them commit crime.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8557955/Young-people-should-avoid-alcohol-until-24.html
Vote:in the UK they are calling for 24 in the UK.
I support 18 yrs as it’s nonsensical to allow someone to vote, sign contracts, get married and serve in our armed forces and not let them have a beer.
That said if you are drunk in public ,you should get arrested and the limit for driving should be 0 limit so if you’re drunk behind a wheel you should have the book thrown at you.
It’s only fair to all the other road users.
June 13th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Teenage binge drinking is associated with a way of dying that must not be named.
Being intoxicated can mean making bad choices, choices that people wouldn’t make when sober. It’s even worse for teenagers because they don’t have enough life experience to put things into perspective.
I say breath test the kids at all social events at Kings College – there should be zero tolerance to alcohol rather than tolerance until intoxification.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 6:48 pm
Zero tolerance to alcohol would not make any difference. For a start we do not know the issues behind this tragedy – and we do not know if alcohol was even involved.
Young people simply do not have the life skills to deal with many run of the mill issues, alcohol or no.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
Theres one simple solution.
You charge the person who hosted the pre ball party, and
The School Board, and
anyone involved in managing an after party
with manslaughter.
Its the 4th death and I think the ird after the school ball.
Any other outfit would be hauled into court by The Dept of Labour before lunch……
Its not the first time and those listed above are simply acting in gross negligence.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 7:14 pm
yeah sure, but the people who couldn’t walk properly leaving the pre-ball event at the rich pricks house were girls on high heels
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 8:30 pm
What are the actual legal constraints on discussing this incident – as opposed to commonsense and decency?
[DPF: The legal constraint is the Coroners Act]
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 8:57 pm
“ease of supply of alcohol to under 18s needs to be changed”. If the death was due to illegal drugs, which is what seems to be insinuated here, then what makes you think making it tougher for under 18s to access alcohol through legislation will have any impact on availability? By that reasoning, he would never have had access to drugs in the first place, as they are illegal right?
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 11:40 pm
I notice on the late news that one kid at the ball supposedly saw kids in the toilet doing lines of cocaine.
It was said that balls celebrate success so they need to happen but I’m not sure that is true as I thought awards ceremonies were usually separate. For teenage boys (and girls I guess) balls can be very stressful and depressing so maybe the ball itself should be cancelled in future.
Vote:June 13th, 2011 at 11:44 pm
I’d believe that. People were doing cocaine at my school ball (post 2000), and I suggest that these issues are just as prevalent at any high school you care to name.
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 5:24 am
When I was a lad, High school balls were a local hall rented, some disco music and shyly stolen glances with the pretty girl you fancied from afar while trying to concentrate on geography. The keepsake was an end-of-year book with peoples’ ‘witty’ remarks and signatures on the back cover. You went home with a sense that this chapter of your life was now closed and the uncertainaty of adult life, job, future perhaps travel beckoned.
Now it’s booking all-over tans, hiring stretch-limos, getting tanked up on the pre, and after ball party, followed by electronic co-dependency through social networking, suicide, accidental death by misadventure cocaine binge-drinking experimental sex and your lasting memento is a series of graphic images of you and your mates being fuckwits on facebook. If you survive. If you don’t it will be tears, hugs and free counselling as a confused generation asks itself ‘Where did it all go wrong?’
And we wonder why they are droppping like flies – when we have been smothering them with our infantalised imported americanised over-indulgence for years now.
Just ban after-school balls – it’s hardly an infringment of human rights, kids now can have one any weekend of the year and often do.
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 6:54 am
“Just ban after-school balls – it’s hardly an infringment of human rights, kids now can have one any weekend of the year and often do.”
What is the point of banning them then?
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 7:03 am
we’d save on counselling bills.
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 7:14 am
Outrageous goonix.
In a way you just nailed something inadvertently. Your response suggests a mentality that if something happens we should just throw our hands up and ‘go with the folw’. We don;t need to have alter the situation, just sigh and accept. Sure, the situation is thus, so let’s not deal with it let’s merely compound the issue by refusing to address even one aspect of it.
I’m not saying you are saying this, but I am saying that a kind of defeatism’ appears to inform a lot of debatesand issues.
From the legal age of drinking to prostitution. Sure, if my sixteen-year-old daughter was selling herself to truckers, I could argue that she’s entitled to and that it’s even legal. But that doesn’t mean that if I wanted to address the problem, I should start from the premise of ‘Oh well it’s happening, already, so I might as well park my thoughts and ideas in the too hard basket.’ [sigh].
Banning school proms would be step one only. Then I’d have them chemically castrated and put in national service.
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 7:15 am
except the pretty ones.
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 10:11 am
the high school where I teach (decile 7, co-ed state school) always tests at all social occasions. At our school ball all attending had to undergo the ‘sniffer’ test. If alcohol was detected they then had to line up and have a breath test. If they failed ‘Youth’ they aren’t allowed in. I think out of all the students attending this only happened to one student as the students now know the schools expectations. I believe this year there was also a dog in the foyer which didn’t pick anything up. At the junior social we had the alcohol ‘sniffer’ and no-one failed. Feedback from parents AFAIK was 100% positive.
)
Vote:I am home sick (not blogging on work time
June 14th, 2011 at 7:15 pm
Outrageous indeed.
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
Coroners Act:
71 Restrictions on making public of details of self-inflicted deaths
(1) No person may, without a coroner’s authority, make public any particular relating to the manner in which a death occurred if—
(a) the death occurred in New Zealand after the commencement of this section; and
(b) there is reasonable cause to believe the death was self-inflicted; and
(c) no inquiry into the death has been completed.
But if “there is reasonable cause to believe the death was self-inflicted” then “some particulars relating to the manner in which a death occurred” must already have been made public. So for the general public it is impossible to fulfill the obligations of this clause unless those obligations have already been violated. Which DPF’s warning implies.
Vote:June 14th, 2011 at 8:43 pm
Another aspect of this is the media and public intrest in the ‘private school’
Here in HB the local newspaper made the drug expulsions, from the one local private boys school, a front page item.
Like these things are not common to other schools and teenagers.
Or is somehow that the so called ‘rich’ are worth a good kiwi pull down.
Vote: