The hijab debate

July 6th, 2011 at 10:12 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

Two New Zealand Muslim women say they fear they will not get jobs because of their appearance.

Their comments come in the wake of two incidents in Auckland in which bus drivers took exception to Saudi Arabian women wearing veils that covered their faces.

I think we need to be careful not to confuse two forms of here. There is the which leaves the face viewable and the which does not.

I would hope few people would discriminate against someone because they wear a head scarf.

But it is quite a different issue with someone who insisted on wearing a hijab that covered the face. Yes you would have great difficulty gaining employment and fitting into a workplace, if you cover your face up.

The student, who did not want to be named because she did not want to harm her job prospects, said she could not imagine how she would be accepted into a corporate environment in her hijab.

“I know I’m going to have a hard time just being in my veil and applying to a corporate role … I can’t wait to work but sometimes I’m worried how I’m going to fit into a corporate environment where I’m not wearing a miniskirt.”

The mini-skirt rich corporate environment is more myth than substance in my experience (except PR firms). I think most workplaces are tolerant of cultural and religious diversity – within reason.

Mrs Adam, who is half Fijian-Indian and wears a hijab which exposes her face, said in 30 years she had only had two negative experiences in Wellington that she could remember.

Good. That is two too many, but once every 15 years is not too bad.

Other friends who wore the niqab, which covered the face aside from the eyes, reported they had been told to “go home” and sworn at.

This was uncommon, she said. “Wellingtonians are extremely friendly and tolerant.

“Wearing the niqab is a little more disconcerting for people and I do recognise that, you see someone’s face, that’s reassuring.”

It is up to each person what they wear in public. If they wish to wear a face covering niqab then that is up to them. But don’t expect to get a job easily if you won’t show your face for a job interview. Most people place considerable reliance on being able to see who we talk to and work with.

She rejected claims made online at dompost.co.nz yesterday that Muslims who came to New Zealand should abide by the culture.

The situation was not the same as Westerners dressing modestly when they visited Muslim countries, as “to be uncovered is not a religious tenet for the person, therefore it’s easier to not do it”.

She misses the point. Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not. If you stand up for your right to dress according to your religious values in NZ, you should stand up for the rights for non Muslims in other countries to not comply with Islamic dress codes.

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155 Responses to “The hijab debate”

  1. Owen McShane (1,226 comments) says:

    Are we being softened up for Al Quaeda strikes during the Rugby World Cup?

    Public transport – trains, buses, ferries and planes – are popular targets for Al Quaeda.
    Witness the London Transport bombings, the Madrid rail bombings, the Japanese subway gas attacks, and the Superferry attack in the Philipiness, and of course 9/11.

    New Zealand troops have now attracted world wide Islamist attention, courtesy of our mainstream media, because our SAS troops were instrumental in cleaning up the Al Quaeda/Taleban assault on the Intercontinental Hotel in Afghanistan.

    Islamists are already protesting at our involvement. These kind of activities have typically triggered the reprisals on public transport system. (See list above)

    So it is not unreasonable to fear a terrorist bomb attack on our buses or trains – with a major one targeting Britomart on the night of the finals of the World Cup. I don’t believe the two Wellington bus drivers suffered from Mask Phobia. They are more likely to have had a rational fear of people dressed like suicide bombers.

    Al Queda are now recruiting young men and women because they can move in public places under total cover of the Burka – the Burka veil conceals identity, and the gown covers all the plastique and wiring.

    It is possible that the two incidents on Wellington buses have been timed to generate the understandable reaction from the bus drivers and in return produce the knee jerk liberal response from our Government, MSM, and Commissioners all guaranteeing the right for “women” to enter a train or bus or ferry in total head to toe disguise?

    Two wired women on every carriage in Britomart on World Cup Final night would be a potent act of revenge for our SAS activities in Kabul.

    And we seem to be setting it up.

    The police will be diverted by Titewhai’s and other protests around the fields.

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  2. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    She misses the point. Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not. If you stand up for your right to dress according to your religious values in NZ, you should stand up for the rights for non Muslims in other countries to not comply with Islamic dress codes.

    You’re both talking about different things. She’s talking about the right to religious expression, and you’re talking about the right to wear what you want. In New Zealand, both of those rights support the freedom to wear a niqab. In Saudi Arabia, only the right to wear what you want supports the freedom to NOT wear a niqab.

    The “culture” in New Zealand should be that people can wear whatever they want, not some particular way – just as it should be everywhere.

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  3. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Al Queda are now recruiting young men and women because they can move in public places under total cover of the Burka – the Burka veil conceals identity, and the gown covers all the plastique and wiring.

    Owen, can you point to any recorded example of a suicide bomber wearing a burka?

    I’m not saying there aren’t any. I just can’t think of any.

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  4. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    Ryan:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34253090/ns/world_news-africa/t/deadly-blast-hits-somali-graduation-ceremony/

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  5. MIKMS (167 comments) says:

    “Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not.”

    I am just wondering where we do that? the only areas I can think of are in the Marriage laws though that could be argued as general societal decision and possibly the use of “god” in the Oath and Anthem – used in a very irreligious way too.

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  6. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Owen

    Wow, and I thought it was just an ignorant bus driver, but you’ve discerned a terrorist plot against the RWC. I trust you’ve shared your insights with the Police.

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  7. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    MIKMS

    Prayers in Parliament too.

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  8. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    I wish anyone luck in getting past the “it’s religious and/or cultural” therefore we must kiss their arses brigade. We don’t need the trappings of a stone age, patriarchal society where women are second class possessions of men & must be hidden lest the pitiful Muslim male is unable to control himself after glimpsing an uncovered nose.

    The issue has far less to do with Islam than the cultural garbage of mid eastern tribal societies. It has no place in modern NZ.

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  9. davidp (3,581 comments) says:

    nasska>The issue has far less to do with Islam than the cultural garbage of mid eastern tribal societies.

    I don’t see why we need to respect religion. Religion is a set of beliefs based on a supernatural being, whereas politics is a set of beliefs not based on a supernatural being. We’re free to disrespect politics we find distasteful and the people who follow those politics, so why not treat religion the same?

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  10. MIKMS (167 comments) says:

    @mikenmild
    True but they are up to the office holder’s discretion, an atheist may offer a prayer with no mention of god and likewise for any religious individual holding the offices of Deputy Speaker or Speaker

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  11. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    mikenmild @ 10.36
    a prissy, condesending, immature post that reveals much about the author.

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  12. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    davidp

    I’m in total agreement but since the apologists for Islam are usually socialists I try not to give them a chance to derail the debate. I have noted that the absence of red herrings renders them speechless in many arguments.

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  13. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Religous beliefs do not superceed our secular laws.

    To claim that they do under the mask of “tollerance” is beyond stupidity, it is deliberate dishonesty.

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  14. OTGO (548 comments) says:

    I think we need to think back to the reasons why these people are even allowed to live in NZ. I just can’t see what it is they are adding to NZ’s society let alone improving the gene pool. There must be a time (as in France) that we just say, “look you seem like nice people but you are entirely unsuited to contribute anything to NZ so stay back in Saudi Arabia where you may be more appreciated”. And it isn’t just these women it is the men as well.

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  15. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    OTGO
    ‘improving the gene pool’

    Really? Really? WTF?

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  16. 3-coil (1,219 comments) says:

    At the foot of the Stuff report, Anah Waenga is quoted: “Why don’t all you Muslim veil haters meet up and make a support group? Lol. This is stupid! You can’t discriminate, and put all Muslims in the same category as each other. Have we had any terrorist attacks from veiled woman in NZ yet? I think not!! So stop being racist and get over it!!”

    IIRC we have experienced an armed attempted mid-air hi-jacking of an aircraft here in NZ – by a black robed/hooded Muslim woman. From memory it was a few years back, on a flight possibly into or from Blenheim. I do remember the press photos of the arrest – her ample love-handles exposed for all to see.

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  17. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    A Saudi woman is recommended to wear a niqab, it is not legally mandated. Similarly a Saudi woman is recommended not to be employed other than to raise children and take care of the household.
    If this woman really wants to get work in the corporate world her commitment to her Saudi heritage seems to be somewhat cherry picked.

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  18. big bruv (13,880 comments) says:

    Owen

    “Are we being softened up for Al Quaeda strikes during the Rugby World Cup?”

    Lol….NO.

    While I do not want to underestimate the threat of Muslim terrorists I doubt that the Muslim world would even know that the RWC is being played in NZ, indeed, 99% of the world do not know that the RWC is on and 99% do not care.

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  19. OTGO (548 comments) says:

    What don’t you understand mikeenmild? It’s the opposite to subtracting from the gene pool. It’s why you married someone more intelligent than you. So your children can be better than you.

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  20. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    OTGO

    I don’t think that we even have to give them credit for adding to or subtracting from the gene pool. They are determined not to integrate in any way & that includes semen & eggs.

    As an aside, in that multicultural country formerly known as Great Britain, the Pakistani Moslems are so keen to keep their ethnicity pure that they force arranged marriages between first cousins. Apparently this is contributing to dimwittedness alongside other genetic defects.

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  21. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    BB question for you: What and were is the worlds most populious Muslim country.

    Question 2: What organisation has the letters JI?

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  22. big bruv (13,880 comments) says:

    Murray

    1. Indonesia

    2. Jamal islamia

    As far as I know the Indonesian rugby team has not qualified (or more likely did not attempt to qualify because like the rest of the world they do not care) for the RWC, so…what point are you trying to make?

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  23. Owen McShane (1,226 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproul

    The only local example I know of for sure is the incident on an ANZ flight to Blenheim. However, do a google search on Burqa and terrorism and there are heaps. eg A woman covered in a head-to-foot burqa carried out a suicide bombing that killed more than 40 people in Pakistan, government officials said on Sunday, adding to security challenges confronting the U.S. ally. For a more diverse listing go to: http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/niqabs-and-burqas-as-security-threats
    However, is some of the attacks we shall never know because the suicide bombers are blown to pieces.
    However, Al Quaeda etc are recruiting younger people because they are easier to brainwash and that the Burqa is highly effective in concealing bombs etc – so if the garb becomes accepted – and even protected by PC decisions – then it becomes part of the armoury.
    Big Bruv says the Muslim World is not aware of the RWC and he is right. But the terrorist Islamists are not stupid. If they want to target someone (like the Brits) they do their homework and identify the best target for the most emotional response.

    They would not take long to identify the RWC as being of high symbolic content and will be attracting huge attention from the media of the Western World. When you attack the security of NZ, Australia, South Africa, AND the UK, England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, Canada, France, Italy and Japan – it is a highly cost effective operation.
    The major reason France has banned the full burqa in public is the terrorist threat.

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  24. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    BB

    Indonesia are currently in Division Four of the Asian rugby champs. They are not rated on the IRB rankings (which stop at 94), so we won’t see tham at a RWC any time soon.

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  25. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Well done now go find a centre for defence and strategic study (Singapore) report of terrorist groups training and recuiting in New Zealand.

    To cut to the chase they have identified 10.

    Finally what do you think the softest target availible to them is?

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  26. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Don’t stop at banning the burqa – ban minarets (useful sniper nests) and languages other than English (used for terrorist communication).

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  27. BeaB (2,123 comments) says:

    Ironies abound when the Saudi Arabian consul lectures us on women’s rights!
    I am totally intolerant of the full face mask – it is designed to isolate, subjugate and oppress, preventing women from taking full part in society even unable to eat and drink in public. Tolerance is no virtue when it allows female circumcision or other evils.
    I have no respect for outdated and absurd beliefs that consign women (or men for that matter) to an inferior position on the basis of their sex alone and it dismays me that the Left places more importance on fatuous ideas of diversity than on women’s rights.
    We should make our disapproval of the full face mask clearly known in the hope that one day these wretched women can enjoy a full life.
    It makes me sick to see little schoolgirls in heavy scarves and robes and I wonder at the kind of male psyche that gains satisfaction from such an odious practice.

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  28. Lance (2,654 comments) says:

    This thread was guaranteed to be a troll feeding ground.

    I usually try to avoid ad-hominems but on this occasion enough is enough.

    @mikemild
    You are a dick. Every comment you make is crap.

    As to my point of view on the topic.
    The hijab is a cultural expression not a religious one. I find it shallow that to express a contrary view on that cultural expression is to invite charges of religious intolerance and racism.
    I guess that’s how you shut down any argument these days.

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  29. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    BeaB

    Very good points, especially re the Saudis on human rights. I’d be a bit more tolerant. Many people are happy to wear their cutsomary dress and would not see themselves as oppressed as a consequence. I’d be careful about automatically assuming someone wearing a scarf is an oppressed female.

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  30. Mark53 (12 comments) says:

    This is the beginning of a phenomena that we have seen in other countries before……creeping sharia.

    http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/australia-after-uproar-muslim-says-mistake-to-mention-sharia-law/

    http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/landmark-ruling-in-new-zealand-recognizes-sharia-law/

    Whats next, publicly funded Muslim only swimming lessons?:

    http://pommygranate.blogspot.com/2007/01/creeping-sharia-in-new-zealand.html

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  31. starboard (2,536 comments) says:

    come to NZ and wear a full burka..be prepared to get hissed and sneered at .. head scarf dont have an issue with but full burka can fuck off..and so can their shitty arrogant attitudes ( close up the other nite, carpark ). You are in NZ…act like a Kiwi not a raghead.

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  32. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Mark53

    Should we allow such adoptions from Pakistan?

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  33. starboard (2,536 comments) says:

    “Whats next, publicly funded Muslim only swimming lessons”

    In chc some years ago a group of muslim demanded that the city council provide a shielded area for them to swim in at QE 2 swimming complex..they didnt want ” others ” to see them….thin end of the wedge.

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  34. Mark53 (12 comments) says:

    Recently elected U.S. Congressman from Florida, retired Lt. Colonel Allen West

    …we can not allow them to come in to our country and proselytize in their mosques and talking about overthrowing our government, our constitutional democracy, saying they want to replace it with sharia, and then we say that’s ok, that’s freedom of speech, that’s freedom of religion; that’s not, that’s sedition…this is not going away…there are two ways you end the war…you win or you lose…

    ~ Allen West

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  35. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Is that quote from Allen West the convicted war criminal?

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  36. Mark53 (12 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5231950/Veiled-woman-kicked-off-bus

    I note the article above mentions a threat that if we all don’t behave it will threaten $300 million of Saudi language school tourism.

    Sameer Aljabri, the husband of one of the women, said he would lodge an official complaint with the Human Rights Commission on behalf of his wife

    The complainant Mr Sameer Aljabri, is a Saudi consulate diplomat in Auckland.

    Why does the Saudi consulate in Auckland have 34 diplomats?
    The Saudi consulate in Auckland have a cultural/education office in Greenlane with 17 staffers. What, I wonder are they teaching there? How to stone gays and adulterers? Are they funding Wahhabi mosques and “education” in Auckland?

    Consulate-General of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Auckland
    Street Address: Level 13, HSBC Building, 1 Queen Street, Auckland
    Postal Address: PO Box 105986, Auckland 1143
    Telephone: (09) 912 7808
    Facsimile: (09)912 6659
    Email: nzcon@mofa.gov.sa
    Office hours: 9.00am-4.00pm
    Staff Details:
    Mr Ahmed N DH Al Johani, Consul-General
    Mr Abdulkareem M A Helal, Vice Consul-General
    Mr Mona A M Al Saadi
    Mr Saleh M A Al Enazi, Vice-Consul (Economic and Trade)
    Mr Majid A M Al Zowaimil, Consul
    Mrs Hasna Mujawwil E Al Zowaimil
    Mr Abdullah Hamad M Alshopramy, Consul
    Mr Ibrahim Saeed A Alhazmi, Consul
    Mrs Maha Almahmadi
    Mr Muteb M A Al Rusayyis, Consular Employee
    Mrs Mona Mubarak A Al Mawash
    Mr Albaraa Hassan A Attar, Consular Employee
    Ms Munirah Saleh A Alomran, Consular Employee
    Mr Sultan Mindil Q Alshawi, Consular Employee
    Mr Haithem Ahmed H Alhamoud, Consular Employee
    Mrs Soha Hmad M Alzare
    Mr Fahad Abdullah M Aljarallah, Consular Employee
    Mr Muhammad Fahad DH Al Suhaimi, Consular Employee
    Mr Abdullah Al Muwaina, Consular Employee
    Mrs Nawal Mohammad A. Al Ajab
    Mr Saleh Tulayan G Alanazi, Consular Employee

    Education/Cultural Office, Auckland
    Street Address: 190 Great South Road, Greenlane, Auckland
    Telephone: (09) 903 9600
    Facsimile: (09) 903 9624
    Staff Details:
    Mr Sattam Bakheet R Al Otaiby, Consul (Cultural)
    Mrs Aljawharah Qedan S Al Otaibi
    Mr Bandar Fahad Al Harkan, Consul
    http://www.mfat.govt.nz Tuesday 5th of July 2011
    Mrs Rana Alhammad
    Mr Faisal Fahad Al Rashed, Consul
    Mr Mohammed Abdulrahman Al Hudayb, Consul
    Mrs Eman Al Mousa
    Mr Abdullah Alsolai, Consul
    Mr Ali Omar Mohammed Al Suhaibani, Consul
    Mr Nawaf Mohammad I Asheri, Consul
    Mr Sameer Al Jabri, Consul
    Mrs Mi Saud H Alosaimi
    Mr Bander Aljowaie, Consul
    Mr Hussin Alshahrany, Consul
    Mr Abdulrahman Eid S Aljohani, Consul
    Mr Humod Allihyani, Consular Employee
    Mr Theniyan Alenezi, Consular Employee
    Mr Hassan Aldossary, Consular Employee

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  37. immigant (950 comments) says:

    I find the paraphenelia of orthodox Muslim worships, like beards, turbans and black sacks for women highly offensive. It reminds me of my classmates that were brutaly murdered in the name of Islam. Makes me feel unsafe and when I see these people makes me wanna reach for my sidearm. What about my freedom of speech and my rights for selfexpression?
    I find it so offensive, I would class wearing a face sack the same as gang patch – pure intimidation.

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  38. Steve Wrathall (284 comments) says:

    So, we are being lectured by Saudi Arabia on being a more tolerant and inclusive country. Un-be-frikking-lievable.
    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2007/05/a-christian-caught-in-mecca-what-fate-awaits
    As for the threat of losing Saudi education tourists, has France observed any such effect from banning the burqua? Has Switzerland from banning minarets? What sort of Muslims would stop coming if there was a burqua/niqab ban? What sort would be more likely to come? Presumably those wanting to escape the gender apartheid of their homelands.

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  39. annie (539 comments) says:

    I suggest a reverse slut-walk.

    Let’s all wear, in the interests of equality, either

    1) niquab, the full works
    2) motorbike helmet or
    3) cowboy hat and scarf tied across lower face

    on Friday week, climb on and off buses, taxis, go in and out of banks, and into the cop shop to say hello. Let’s see how that goes, shall we?

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  40. georgebolwing (844 comments) says:

    I’m sure DPF puts these sorts of posts up because he enjoys the predictable intollerant ranting that results.

    Anyway, some tolerant anti-ranting from me.

    I find it sad that in the 21st century, many still find foreigners who are different from them as a threat.

    I also find it sad that a chain of “logic” that goes “some bad people wear burquas; this person is wearing a burqua, therefore this person is bad” is convincing to some readers of this blog.

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  41. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Personally, I don’t think enough attention has been paid to how easy it is to conceal explosives inside a bra.

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  42. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Or a rugby ball.

    Think about it.

    Just think about it.

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  43. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    Is that quote from Allen West the convicted war criminal?

    You obviously meant to say Allen West, decorated veteran who was accused of misconduct as a result of firing gun shots near the head of an Iraqi police officer he suspected of withholding information about a plot to kill him and some of the soldiers under his command. Following the dropping of court martial charges he retired from the US Army after a 20-year career.

    Yeah – that’s War Criminal standard. Sort of like saying that Darren Hughes retired from Parliament after committing sexual abuse – correct?

    Sheesh. What is it about Black Republicans that brings out the Left’s inner KKK?

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  44. Sarkozygroupie (207 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    As a green-eyed, blonde western woman and having had the very dubious pleasure of having to abide by Islamic dress codes in several Islamic countries I can attest that after a very short while, the psychological efffects of having to cover up from head to toe continuously, and to be constantly aware of the need to make sure the veil is fixed in place lest (at the very least) great offence be caused to men forcing them to lose control (and at the worst) being taken away by the police (as actually happens), takes its toll. Very quickly I became fixated on MY responsibility not to offend any men around me, not to be seen to be anything but subservient and malleable. In the end I didn’t want to take off my veil and resisted until the last moment because it gave me a sense of security which comfortably replaced the sense of independence I had lost.

    Even in the privacy of my own hotel room I had to be fully veiled if I was expecting room service (only delivered by men) or veil myself very quickly if there was a knock on the door. My bathrobe even had a hood in case a man came to my door and caught me unawares. And they did. They came at all times of the day and night, and at times when they were not supposed to be there i.e room service breakfast was to be delivered at 6am, they would arrive at 5:30 or 5am. I had men (from the hotel) asking me to unveil myself in the privacy of my room so they could look at me unadorned.

    The idea that wearing a veil protects a man from being unable to control his urges upon seeing skin was in my case proven to be wholly untrue. I had a Muslim man try and enter my room twice in one evening (the second time he tried to force his way in) – the first evening I was in Iran. He stalked me for two weeks, finding out my phone number and calling me repeatedly. Waiting for me to come out of buildings, following me.

    I had another man from Lebanon ask me to unveil myself on my flight to Dubai. He asked to touch me (hold my hand? touch my body?) after about two minnutes of chatting me up – he pushed an older man out of the seat next to me so he could sit by me instead. When I refused to let him he told me about his wife and children.

    And somehow the behaviour of these men was my sole responsibility?

    Hiding behind a religious edict which doesn’t exist in Sharia law is fraudulent.

    I am assuming you are a man – unless you are a woman and have experienced what it is like to be veiled in an Islamic country, I suggest you refrain from commenting on how women feel about it.

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  45. thas (61 comments) says:

    @ MIKMS, 10:34 am – “Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not.”

    See statutory references to Maori spirituality for an example of where NZ does so.

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  46. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    I don’t think enough attention has been paid to how easy it is to conceal explosives inside a bra.

    I think you’ll find the US Transport Safety Authority has – at least to Judge from their search techniques of 6-year old girls and 95-year old cancer patients.

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  47. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    The Burqa, Hajib and other coverings are an extension of the concept of namus.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus

    While that concept of Namus is not the sole property of any one religion, it is Islam that has taken it to extremes. It remains a physical embodiment of the lower status afforded to women from these cultural backgrounds and is anathema to the rights that women have fought for for decades in this and other countries.

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  48. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yeah, Sarkozygroupie. Coz I’m a man and haven’t travelled to Saudi Arabia I should STFU? Ha ha. Just like those pro-apartheid drongoes in the 80s, the ones who liked to say you really couldn’t comment unless you’d been to SA.

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  49. Sarkozygroupie (207 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    You can say what you like – just try to do so with some kind of authority if you want to people to take you seriously – you are sorely lacking in that in the posts you have made so far.

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  50. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    A couple of correspondents above,
    ‘I doubt the muslim world is even aware the RWC is being played in New Zealand” and,
    ‘ but youve discerned a terorist plot to the RWC,’
    may care to consider that many muslim terrorist acts which are committed in western countries are the work
    of second and third generation muslim immigrants. UK, Spain , USA , etc.
    We now have 40,000 plus muslims in NZ, and many now are second generation.
    We know they will not integrate into any western society.
    This is where a problem may come from, if not sooner then later.

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  51. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    tom hunter arseholes, they were generous and allowed him to retire after he had tortured a bloke who had done nothing.
    The prick should have got twenty years scrubbing a cell with a toothbrush.

    As for that woman on the aircraft, christ what a bunch of fucking wimps the pakeha passengers were, not one of them belted her.

    Immigrant, you are a visitor, do not like our rules, fuck off back to jesusland.

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  52. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Face masks, what a fucking good idea for that mob whose women have five chins, other wise known as the brethren.

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  53. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    Thank you slightlyrightly and others with clear heads.
    The rest of you liberal/leftist wallies please go live in a sharia dominant territory for a year as women in a burqa or as dhimmis and then come back to tell us your experiences,.

    We are a democracy still and I think it is fair to require all people in public to be known by having their faces available to view.
    Even more so in an area of security concern like banks, building societies, post offices and any others you can to list.

    This has nothing to do with religion only openness and fairness in a democracy, if the Mohammed lovers don’t like it they should stuff off back to where they came from.

    We are not Dhimmis here contrary to what Phil Goof or Jonkey may say.

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  54. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    grumpy

    Allen’s a black Tea Party congressman, and so must be adored.

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  55. immigant (950 comments) says:

    I think it’s rich they are a having a cry about not being passed over for work. I wonder why that is? I’d say having a sack clad co worker woudl be pretty unsettling at work. Fuck up teh whole team dynamic.

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  56. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    We are a democracy, so everyone should be wearing name tags, exposed faces and mood rings.

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  57. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    I suggest you refrain from commenting on how women feel about it.

    I think you’ll find that in choosing whether to stand against misogyny and religious bigotry or avoid being called a racist, the Left has long since chosen the latter.

    Well – apart from GOH, who never lets anything stand between him and a relentless focus on NZ brown skin-white skin interactions ……. Oh wait!

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  58. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    Immigrant, you are a visitor, do not like our rules, fuck off back to jesusland.

    Irony – esp. Dramatic or Tragic Irony
    literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character’s words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
    Oxford American Dictionary

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  59. Rick Rowling (813 comments) says:

    “Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not.”

    I am just wondering where we do that?

    Easter & Christmas trading laws

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  60. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    bereal at 1:10 pm

    We now have 40,000 plus muslims in NZ, and many now are second generation.
    We know they will not integrate into any western society.
    This is where a problem may come from, if not sooner then later.

    If many are second generation doesn’t that suggest they have integrated to a fair extent? They may still go to different churches (like many non-Muslims), and they may wear things that some others don’t like (like skanks and Mobs), but they are living and working and paying taxes here.

    How many of that 40,000 do you think are at risk of causing “a problem”?

    I don’t like some male muslim attitudes towards women. I also don’t like some Maori and PI and pakeha and Christian male attitudes towards women either. Should they all be banished from the country?

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  61. Rick Rowling (813 comments) says:

    mikenmild (910) Says:
    July 6th, 2011 at 11:35 am

    Don’t stop at banning the burqa – ban minarets (useful sniper nests) and languages other than English (used for terrorist communication).

    and religious / cultural costumes & practises like white robes, pointy hoods and cross-burning.

    Oh, wait.

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  62. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    Woman faces boot despite NZ family

    An Englishwoman whose family has permanent residence faces deportation because her natural father – whom she has never met – did not sign forms for her residency. </I.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10736612

    I am outraged when I read this sort of thing happening at the same time we have problems from migrants that have no intention of assimilating.

    Those who rubbish the idea of terrorism what do you think would happen if New Zealand was heavily involved in a war with a Muslim country? I mean serious not just a few troops half way around the world.

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  63. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    mikenmild But he is a good little uncle Tom, yes masssa, no massa

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  64. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Who ever told me to go back to Jerusalem

    I fought them in Chechnia you antisemite peice of shit.

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  65. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    grumpy

    And he lives in ‘Plantation’, Florida!

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  66. Megatron (188 comments) says:

    Hijab/Burqa does have a place in NZ …….. On Sue Bradford for one

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  67. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Fuck this thread.

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  68. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    @Owen:

    The only local example I know of for sure is the incident on an ANZ flight to Blenheim.

    As far as I’m aware, Asha ali Abdille wasn’t wearing a burqa — and she certainly wasn’t a jihadi. She had a long history of mental health problems and alcohol abuse and was estranged from her own community. She was a nutter.

    To attempt to draw a connection between that incident and some poor woman being refused entry to a bus is ludicrous — but not as ludicrous as fabricating a paranoid conspiracy about terror plots. Can I suggest you consult your alleged skeptical principles and limit yourself to the actual evidence?

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  69. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    immigant so what the fuck are you doing in this little green land ?

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  70. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    mikenmild jeez, I hope he stays away from those pure xtian hard working white women in Plantation :-)

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  71. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Nice comment Russell.

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  72. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Grumpy brown mofo throwing race into the pot again, all we need is Phillu and the stage will be set.

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  73. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Grumpy brown mofo throwing race into the pot again, all we need is Phillu and the stage will be set.

    I don’t believe I mentioned race at all, although you may care to ask Owen what he was thinking about.

    I was more on the “try not to be a paranoid fantasist loon” tip.

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  74. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori (1,869) Says:
    July 6th, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    mikenmild But he is a good little uncle Tom, yes masssa, no massa

    ——

    mikenmild (913) Says:
    July 6th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    grumpy
    And he lives in ‘Plantation’, Florida!

    Good to see people who are so confident that their leftist ideology protects them from charges of being racists that they can indulge in racism. You’ll love this:

    In the immortal words of Megatron in Transformers: The Movie, Herman Cain’s speech at CPAC really is bad comedy. As you know, I find black garbage pail kids black conservatives fascinating not because of what they believe, but rather because of how they entertain and perform for their White Conservative masters.

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  75. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    tom

    Who’s leftist ideology?

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  76. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    tom hunter you must admit Cain does perform well for his white xtian masters.
    The same type of people who believed it was good form to set a gelignite charge to kill some young girls who happened not to be white.

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  77. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Wearing a burqa or scarf in a western country has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with making a political statement. Like a previous writer , I have been forced to rug up in an islamic country. We fit in with them in their countries , so why can’t they do the same? Life is a two way street but not with these nutters. Why are Christians and others not allowed to ”express themselves” by wearing crosses , building churches etc in their country? How many people , particularly Philipinos , have been beheaded in S.A. for ”expressing their religion?”
    Good posts on the threat of terrorism , also the one with all the info on the Sowdi Barbarian staff.
    Whatever happened to the terrorist in Auckland who set his sites on a nuclear plant in Sydney?? Last I heard he was still fighting with immigration NZ.

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  78. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird at 1:33 pm

    Those who rubbish the idea of terrorism what do you think would happen if New Zealand was heavily involved in a war with a Muslim country? I mean serious not just a few troops half way around the world.

    What types of clothing on what type of people who have what type of beliefs should be banned to avert a war? Surely we must be prepared against any possibility, not just Muslim.

    A law has to be more specific than “people Chuck thinks could be a threat”.

    But maybe you’re right, a worlddwide ban on covering faces may solve all the worl’d violence.

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  79. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    joana at 2:25 pm

    Wearing a burqa or scarf in a western country has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with making a political statement.

    I presume you are just talking about some sorts of scarfs. What about carrying stop signs? That’s not fitting in with many people politically.

    We fit in with them in their countries , so why can’t they do the same?

    How would you define “fitting in” here? It would be handy for them to know how they should do that.

    Would wearing jandals in summer and gumboots in winter fit in ok? I’d have a problem with that, I’m ok with gumboots but don’t like wearing jandals, should I go back to where my maternal grandparents came from? Or where my great great grandmother came from?

    Should we ban Pacific and Scottish men from wearing non-trousers?
    Ban white rugby jerseys and black soccer jerseys?

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  80. hj (6,991 comments) says:

    I’m offended by the burka as it makes a statement about me as a male (and about lesbians). I’m not one who likes to see what they’ve had for breakfast either but the eyes poking out thing is very unfriendly… sort of slanderous. Imaginge having a neighbor who builds a big fence all around and keeps the blinds down and what about playing together as kids?

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  81. kowtow (8,428 comments) says:

    ryan spoul is definitely onto it with his suggestions that other items be checked out for bombs…..

    like underpants and shoes……oh wait…..

    Last night that taxpayers burden Yoris de Beast said “barriers” should not be placed (by us) in front of these people (niqab wearers).
    Then WTF is a niqab when it’s not a barrier!

    He should be sacked not Thompson. To think I employ that idiot.
    And Goof equates nuns habits to the niqab. What an idiot.
    And Key declares we’re “multicultural”. What an idiot.

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  82. hj (6,991 comments) says:

    Going on a date with one would be an interesting experience? You’d have to be a masochist or you might think they wear that because they can’t trust themselves?
    Come to think of it if some of us blokes went about like that it might be an improvement?

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  83. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Well i am not offended that a women of faith chooses to wear a burqa, hell she can wear a pink tutu for all i care. It’s when religion demands recognition under law that i have issues.

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  84. hj (6,991 comments) says:

    And Goof equates nuns habits to the niqab. What an idiot. True you can see a nuns face, expression etc .

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  85. backster (2,171 comments) says:

    I suggest the two women try their luck at Curia Ltd, they are likely to find their applications preferred to that of Christian women all other things being equal.

    BEREAL is on the mark, as in other countries it is the second generation we have to fear, those who have little experience of actual life in their parents countries. They receive visits from firebrand Imans in their Mosques advocating Jihad as their ultimate duty. All it takes is a nutter like the one who was going to fly a plane into the stands during the Springbok tour. Al Quaeda’s main tactic these days is for small independent 6 man terror units acting independently. Sooner or later we will be targeted.

    [DPF: Apart from the fact I don't do most of the hiring at Curia, what on Earth makes you think Christian women would be discriminated against?]

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  86. Steve Wrathall (284 comments) says:

    Great way to build cultural understanding:
    These bus drivers (I’m presuming they were men) should have their cultural awareness broadened by being adopted into the Saudi tradition of “breast milk sons”.

    “In order to reduce the difficulties of strict sex segregation in modern life, some clerics issued a fatwa encouraging women to provide breast milk to any man with whom she comes into regular contact. Abdel Mohsen Obeikan, a renowned Islamic scholar, an adviser to the royal court and consultant to the Ministry of Justice, said in 2010: “The man should take the milk, but not directly from the breast of the woman. He should drink it …
    …Another cleric disagreed, saying the man should take the milk straight from her breast.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

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  87. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    What if the Bus driver doesn’t want to take part in cultural understanding? what if the bus driver just doesn’t like people covering their face, no reason given he just doesn’t like it.

    Should he be hounded with flame and steel because of that?

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  88. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Banana

    Apparently he suffers from a ‘mask phobia’. Presumably from watching too many Batman and Lone Ranger shows.

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  89. LabourDoesntWork (290 comments) says:

    Re: Allen West comments, “massa, massa”… white xtian masters, etc

    The clinging of leftists to the belief they are on the side of racial minorities, is a bit rich. It’s proof they insist on being judged by their “good intentions” rather than on the results of their policies. If they were really interested in objective reality, than their narcissistic parading of themselves coupled with gratuitous slandering of the right, they would recognise the utter failure of what they’ve supported for decades. In the US, do they care about the % of blacks in prison, or failing government schools, or the 500% higher abortion rate for black women, or the shockingly high rate of single-motherhood; subsidised and entrenched as it is by their own failed policies? The narcissism is so great they seem happy for the people they claim to side with to keep getting so ill-served by the political class just so they can keep wringing their hands, and patting themselves on the back for not being one of them Racistrightwingers.

    Stop and look at the issue rationally and one can see clearly how the race-baiting narrative and promises of Big Government has forever separated those who’ve bought into it from true emancipation and self-reliance. Forever blaming others is a Really Bad Way to empower yourself.

    (Btw the Civil Rights Act was a Republican initiative, and MLK Jr was himself a Republican. Somehow the issue got hijacked by self-promoting leftists who then rewrote history, and recreated slavery in the form of welfare dependency that serves no one’s interests but the political class. See Ann Coulter’s biting comment about the issue on Youtube video GKM9abol3Uw …)

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  90. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    Banana Llama

    ….”It’s when religion demands recognition under law that i have issues.”….

    And that is what the apologists for Islam ignore or hide. Sharia Law is the goal for Muslims. As long as they represent only a small percentage of the population they have to content themselves with mumbling about the infidels while associating with their own kind. Once they build up numbers the heat goes on as can be witnessed by concession after concession granted by the lily livered weaklings who dominate politics in Britain.

    I have seen no mention above of the status of religion in politics in Islamic countries. We are fortunate enough to live in a secular democracy where church & state are kept at arms length. No such division exists in say Iran where any law passed by the elected parliament must be acceptable to Islam’s hierarchy. As such the power of the Imams cannot be challenged. Sort of the democracy you have when you’re not having a democracy.

    Are we so seriously short of population that we have to welcome those who wish only to destroy our way of life?

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  91. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    nasska

    Got any evidence that NZ muslims ‘wish only to destroy our way of life’? Just asking, becasue I haven’t heard that from any NZ muslims I know.

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  92. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    mikenmild, similarly none of the Maoris I know think that they are discriminated against. Good to know we can put that behind us eh?

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  93. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Got any evidence that NZ muslims ‘wish only to destroy our way of life’? Just asking, becasue I haven’t heard that from any NZ muslims I know.

    I’ve asked this question before. The answer is generally along the lines of, “They act like they don’t wish only to destroy our way of life? THAT’S JUST HOW SNEAKY THEY ARE.”

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  94. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Just because something is not happening in NZ now, doesn’t mean it will not happen. Just like we never used to have Police being shot at. Happens in other parts of the world first and then trickles down to us. Inevitably.

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  95. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    …”Just asking, becasue I haven’t heard that from any NZ muslims I know.”…

    If you require hard evidence there will be no shortage of reading material describing the goals of “The Prophet”……in the library & on line.

    Do you seriously think that Muslims are going to come running up to you & say “Gidday Mike, oh & by the way when we get enough of us here we’re going to have to kill you….no hard feelings”????

    Try to get “Spellcheck”….it’s getting even harder to read your comments.

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  96. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Just because something is not happening in NZ now, doesn’t mean it will not happen. Just like we never used to have Police being shot at. Happens in other parts of the world first and then trickles down to us. Inevitably.

    Or it doesn’t happen here because we don’t act like a pack of idiots, and it will continue to not happen here so long as we continue to not act like a pack of idiots.

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  97. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Do you seriously think that Muslims are going to come running up to you & say “Gidday Mike, oh & by the way when we get enough of us here we’re going to have to kill you….no hard feelings”????

    Yeah, and them Jews with their Jew gold ain’t gonna flaunt it. No, sir. The poorer them ghettoes get, the richer them Jews all is.

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  98. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    nasska

    That would be a ‘no, there is no evidence’, then? Or should I dump muslim friends in case they are plotting to kill me?

    immigrant

    Never had Police shot at, eh?

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  99. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Or it doesn’t happen here because we don’t act like a pack of idiots, and it will continue to not happen here so long as we continue to not act like a pack of idiots.

    Cause the people in the UK are Idots yeah

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  100. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    Just because something is not happening in NZ now, doesn’t mean it will not happen. Just like we never used to have Police being shot at. Happens in other parts of the world first and then trickles down to us. Inevitably.

    Hell, we’d better be more vigilant then.

    Expel all Fijians (some are Muslim anyway) unless they start a coup.
    Expel all English in case they try and blow up Parliament, or take land off us.
    Expel all Scotsmen because they wear funny clothes.
    Expel all Irish – both Protestants and Catholics – so we don’t have our own Troubles.
    Expel all Maori, you never know when they’ll scrap amongst themselves.
    Expel all Dalmations.
    Expel all South Africans.
    Expel all French.
    Expel all Americans.
    Expel all Australians.
    Expel all Turks, Italians, Germans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans.

    You never know what any of them might start doing here. They have histories you know.

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  101. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Most people of Islamic faith i have worked with have been pleasant and accommodating, i even had a pretty good discussion with some on my night crew about Christianity. I don’t see them becoming extremist, they enjoy titty bars, the beach, our summers and our freedoms.

    As for the Sharia extremists, well i have never met one but i don’t want to bury my head in the sand as they do exist and their demands are insatiable, the constant pandering to this minority is cause for concern as it emboldens others with different views to be extreme.

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  102. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    I wonder how long ago it was since people in the UK were saying “but none of the muslims I know want to set up independent Sharia states in England”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011433/Islamic-extremists-set-independent-states-UK-fall-Shariah-law.html

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  103. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    As for the Sharia extremists, well i have never met one but i don’t want to bury my head in the sand as they do exist and their demands are insatiable, the constant pandering to this minority is cause for concern as it emboldens others with different views to be extreme.

    I think if we feel like we’re missing out on Sharia extremists in New Zealand, we can create some of our own. Start legally discriminating against Muslims, socially discriminating against Muslims, isolating and ostracising them, maybe join in a few illegal invasions of countries where their relatives live. We can finally catch up to Australia!

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  104. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    Try a quick read of these.

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/Journal/stories.aspx?id=73891
    http://thewestislamandsharia.blogspot.com/2011/04/muslim-brotherhoods-quest-for-world.html
    (This one is only a blog but has useful links.)
    also
    http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs74.html

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  105. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    So whats your point Ryan?

    I like turtles.

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  106. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Pete George

    Wipe the froth off your mouth, its unbecoming.

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  107. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    … the constant pandering to this minority is cause for concern as it emboldens others with different views to be extreme.

    Well you’ve hit at the heart of the problem, as many in the modern West believe exactly the opposite – that “offending” certain groups will result in a self-fulfilling prophecy as moderates are driven into the arms of extremists and the extremists are driven to become more extreme.

    Amazing how asking Westerners to stand up against a misogynistic, violent religion is automatically “offensive” – not to mention being the same thing as requesting it to be banned.

    Funny how these arguments never emerge in dealing with the followers of any faith or culture other than Islam.

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  108. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Tom,

    I think there’s a lot of ground between the kind of discrimination against Muslims that I condemn and the kind of standing up to misogyny and violence that you (and I) applaud.

    I don’t think that merely “offending” certain groups will result in a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do think that systematically being dicks to certain groups could result in a self-fulfilling prophecy. And there’s a lot of dickishness about, and a lot more dickishness being proposed.

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  109. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    ….”Or should I dump muslim friends in case they are plotting to kill me?”…..

    No.

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  110. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Ryan, I don’t think we’re missing out on Sharia extremists. It would be uncharacteristically naive of you to think that that there cannot be some proportion of NZ muslims who are extremists. Statistically speaking it is very unlikely.
    I think NZ has a better track record than other countries in respect to integration of immigrants, probably because we were already a multicultural society. The real question is what is fair?
    In the context of this post, I don’t think it unreasonable to require that full face masks, by any name, be removed in appropriate circumstances.

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  111. Steve Wrathall (284 comments) says:

    “isolating” Muslims. Isn’t the wearing of a niqab/burkha self-isolation?

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  112. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    nasska – very perceptive, I agree

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  113. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    I think NZ has a better track record than other countries in respect to integration of immigrants, probably because we were already a multicultural society. The real question is what is fair?
    In the context of this post, I don’t think it unreasonable to require that full face masks, by any name, be removed in appropriate circumstances.

    Nor do I. Just a question of appropriate circumstances, really.

    I think this thread got pretty derailed pretty fast by Owen McShane’s doomsaying in the first comment.

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  114. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    In the context of this post, I don’t think it unreasonable to require that full face masks, by any name, be removed in appropriate circumstances.

    How would you define “full face mask” and “appropriate circumstances” in law, and required by whom?

    Would you allow an exemption for people who have facial disfigurements or must not be exposed to direct sunlight?

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  115. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    PG

    How about a Muslim woman having the right to make up her own mind? A few generations of such radical thinking & they may even reach the level of rights enjoyed by NZ women a century ago. As long as Muslim males own their women & girl children in the same way as they would own a camel or a goat we are doing the wretched women no favours by sanctioning the sick customs enforced on them.

    Forget “cultural differences”….they’re a crock of shit.

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  116. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Are we so seriously short of population that we have to welcome those who wish only to destroy our way of life?

    It’s worth pointing out too that the people we’re welcoming are often those who have left theocratic countries in favour of sharing “our way of life” here in New Zealand. If they wanted to live in a theocracy, New Zealand is a pretty shitty choice of destination.

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  117. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Is it not already illegal in New Zealand to force someone to wear something against their will?

    (Except when the police force women to wear tops in public, etc.)

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  118. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    “Would you allow an exemption for people who have facial disfigurements” – nope, not even for Sue.

    Seriously – you know you can’t walk into a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet. Why should a niqab be different?

    And this is definitely worth your time:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/religion-and-beliefs/news/article.cfm?c_id=301&objectid=10736547

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  119. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    That link is a good example RightNow.

    I don’t see how that discriminates against a particular group and those who get their knickers in a knot over it can go fish.

    -bugger me i enjoyed reading the herald for once.

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  120. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull

    If these people are escaping from a theocracy then why would they possibly want to bring the baggage of face sacks & the like with them?

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  121. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    How about a Muslim woman having the right to make up her own mind?

    I’m all for that. Maybe they do make up their own mind – some of them anyway.

    A right to make up one’s own mind is a difficult thing to enforce.

    How about a kiwi bloke having the right to make up his own mind whether he takes his boots off before coming inside? Could you enforce that?

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  122. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    PG

    I’m finding the analogy between boots & burqas a little hard to follow. No mind, I think we agree on it being the wearer’s choice. It’s just that I’d like to put the Imams & the women’s owners feet to the fire & find out whether the women really feel empowered about going through life looking like a letterbox.

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  123. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    RightNow

    Thanks for that link. Food for thought:

    ‘A new law requiring Muslim women wearing burqas or niqabs in New South Wales to show their faces to police if required has been accepted by Islamic organisations and may be followed in other states.
    Muslim groups, including the Islamic Council of New South Wales, Muslims Australia, and the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia welcomed the move.
    “[The planned law has] balanced the needs of people who choose to cover their face as well as the needs of law enforcement and security,” association head Keyser Trad said.’

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  124. Kimble (4,438 comments) says:

    Damn burkas!

    As if my job as a ninja-hunter wasnt difficult enough!!!

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  125. Dazzaman (1,140 comments) says:

    Showing your mug is enforceable alright.

    In the past I’ve had experiences with wearing balaclavas in the dead of winter [I know, I know], the cops see you and you roll it up,…..fair enough. One of the lawyer types feel free to correct me, it is still my understanding that you must show your face in public and not hide it totally.

    It should be purely a case of identification trumping religious identity.

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  126. fatboy slim (77 comments) says:

    What do the kiwi feminist things think about a burka.
    The world is going burka beserk. Who let the masks out!
    Oh well, the All Blacks will play in pink next and John Key and the greedy maori sods will sell the country to the kooks.

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  127. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    fatboy slim

    …”What do the kiwi feminist things think about a burka.”….

    That’s the strangest thing about the whole issue……There’s nary a peep, not a placard, no protests & none of the shrill screeching we have come to expect from the normally rabid feminists. While I accept that the streets would be incredibly beautified if Bradford & her lot stuffed their heads in burqas there is a genuine issue of Women’s Rights here & they are ignoring it.

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  128. fatboy slim (77 comments) says:

    Question for toad and the gals – does a Bradford burka come in rain-forest green?

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  129. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    Ryan

    I certainly don’t think that booting some girl off a bus because she’s wearing the full garb is fighting against misogyny. Rather it’s just adding to her burden in that area while doing nothing to change the people who insist she wear it if she wants to remain part of her community (and perhaps even family).

    As far as Owen’s speculations in the very first comment are concerned, were I an Islamic suicide bomber I’d plan to look as “Western” as possible. I’m fairly sure the September 11 crew were not wearing full beards and robes, let alone hijabs.

    However I’m also not much interested in acting like it’s still September 10 2001, ignoring the rather large number of Islamists in the world as a bunch of laughable nutters with little influence and presenting an insignificant threat.

    Nor am I much impressed by the many left-wingers whose response – even after 9/11, the Tube Bombers, Major Hassan and numerous other attacks in the name of Allah – is to sneeringly treat concerns about the religion or responses to it’s nastier aspects with all the tired, old cliches of dismissal such as “paranoid”, “ignorant”, etc, etc.

    I’m especially not impressed when the people leveling such criticisms are the same bunch of so-called “progressives” who refuse to do a damned thing to break the misogyny, resist the cultural ghettoisation – or even push back against the numerous acts of societal intimidation over books and art that so-called “moderate” muslims have indulged in over the years. The response of the Left on these issues, as even some left-wingers recognise, has been spineless and pathetic.

    In some cases they’ve actually done the Islamists work for them – so as not to cause “offense” in advance. Last year the American Association of Pediatricians decided to amend their previous opposition to the practice of clitoridectomies in order to accomodate certain (cough) communities in the USA. Or take a look at Yale university publishing a scholarly study on the “Muhammed Cartoons” – without including the cartoons.

    Do these not count as worrisome, growing Islamist influences or are they claims about “creeping Sharia law” that should be sneeringly dismissed as “silly”?

    FFS. Who needs Islamists when you’ve got dhimmis like that in your midst.

    I’m not asking for banning. I’m simply asking for people – especially the left – to stand up for all the aspects of the West that they claim to believe in, not just “tolerance”.

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  130. transmogrifier (522 comments) says:

    My two cents:

    1. If a law exists in New Zealand, it has to apply equally to everyone, with no exceptions for religion. As soon as you start doing that, the law is immediately worthless
    2. If you find that the law in NZ conflicts with certain aspects of your culture/religion, you are free to leave NZ. There are over 190 other countries to choose from, where you may find suitable conditions.
    3. On a public street or private residents, wear what you want within the law (ie decency laws)
    4. Private organisations are allowed to refuse access/entry to whoever they want, based on whatever reasons they want
    5. People have the right to complain/boycott/publicise what they see as negative applications of #3 and #4 above. They should not, however, expect it to be legally banned.
    6. NZ has to stop trying to be everything to everyone. We preach tolerance, which is great, but there has to be the understanding that certain beliefs are totally incompatible with each other. In the end, we have to have our own way of doing things that we as a culture believe in.

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  131. Steve (4,559 comments) says:

    Poll.
    Should women be forced to remove veils when using public services?

    http://post.polls.yahoo.com/quiz/quizresults.php?poll_id=62107&wv=1

    The numbers are there, but I want to know who votes ‘don’t know?’ 311 so far but why? Leftie polljackers just to fudge the result?

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  132. Shunda barunda (2,983 comments) says:

    People shouldn’t be offended because someone wants to see their face, it is not an offensive request.

    But this is offensive!!

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  133. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes, that’s offensive. But hey, at least she read the book before burning it.

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  134. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    I’m not asking for banning. I’m simply asking for people – especially the left – to stand up for all the aspects of the West that they claim to believe in, not just “tolerance”.

    Why “especially the left”? Why not everyone equally?

    The notion that “the right” are strong, noble, intelligent and loyal and “the left” are all sorts of prats is a bit pathetic isn’t it? It’s like a bunch of kids saying “it’s all their fault”!

    The guts of humanity is somewhere in the middle.

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  135. Steve Wrathall (284 comments) says:

    As always, Pat Condell nails it:

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  136. Shunda barunda (2,983 comments) says:

    Yes, that’s offensive. But hey, at least she read the book before burning it.

    Ha! Good point!

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  137. Shunda barunda (2,983 comments) says:

    As always, Pat Condell nails it:

    He sure did! middle class left wing prickery be damned!!

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  138. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    If these people are escaping from a theocracy then why would they possibly want to bring the baggage of face sacks & the like with them?

    They bring their baggage of believing in God and condemning homosexuality with them, as a rule, too. Maybe it’s force of habit. Maybe they like it. Who knows.

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  139. nasska (11,468 comments) says:

    …”Maybe it’s force of habit. Maybe they like it. Who knows.”…

    Right On….so why don’t we imagine our Islamic friend weighing up which country he wants to emigrate to. He’s sold the house & the donkey, assembled his household possessions, clothing, wife, female children & everything else he owns & seeks new pastures.

    “Ah Here’s what we,re looking for…..Modern, secular democracy with independant free thinking citizens who don’t go for bullshit.”

    Doesn’t this smell a little to you?

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  140. reid (16,440 comments) says:

    Why is everyone so very scared of Islam?

    Why?

    If you are, I suggest you study it, on the advice of Tsn Tzu: Know your enemy.

    If you’re not, that’s good, for I’m not either. Why would I be?

    I’m quite scared of the mental fanatics who get so carried away with their fanaticism they’ll use Islam as a justification for doing inhuman things to other people. There are quite a few of them, around probably would you say about 3 million, who are prepared to die for Allah, really and truly? I mean how many could there be, really. We’re talking about a person blowing themselves and others up, for real. Would you do it? Duh. Why the hell therefore, does anyone think your average common-or-garden Muslim is simply by definition, on the opposite end all the time, whereby every single Muslim in the entire world just can’t wait to pull the rip-cord.

    I mean, isn’t that just a teeny bit nuts?

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  141. NeutralObserver (94 comments) says:

    I’m just waiting for a race relations complaint that the rugby team ‘the Crusaders’ is a hurtful, offensive name and should be banned so no ones sensibilities is upset.

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  142. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Neutral Observer, surely not!

    I mean, I hear that the next S15 expansion teams are the Berlin Stormtroopers, and the Moscow Pogroms.

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  143. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Right On….so why don’t we imagine our Islamic friend weighing up which country he wants to emigrate to. He’s sold the house & the donkey, assembled his household possessions, clothing, wife, female children & everything else he owns & seeks new pastures.

    “Ah Here’s what we,re looking for…..Modern, secular democracy with independant free thinking citizens who don’t go for bullshit.”

    Doesn’t this smell a little to you?

    There’s the slightest scent of someone who’s more concerned about someone being from a rival religion to their own, than from a different culture from their own.

    It sounds to me that you’ve described someone who really doesn’t want to live in the country of their birth. Given that the country of their birth in this case is a theocracy, it’s pretty strong evidence against your “they’re secretly infiltrating our country to turn it into a clone of their own” theory.

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  144. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    Nicely done Ryan.
    Unfortunately for you your inversion of the story says more about you than the facts.
    Something does smell wrong you just have blocked your nose.

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  145. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    Pete George (10,360) Says:
    July 6th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
    no Pete George the guts of humanity are to the right of you!

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  146. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    reid “Why is everyone so very scared of Islam?”

    A good point… Islam will adapt to the 21st Century. Mobile phones and the internet will ultimately be the vehicles for modernisation of Islam. The speed of change is the only thing able to be influenced, the change itself is inevitable.

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  147. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    Nicely done Ryan.
    Unfortunately for you your inversion of the story says more about you than the facts.
    Something does smell wrong you just have blocked your nose.

    I almost gave up waiting for this! Precisely my point. See how pointless making utterly unfalsifiable claims about another person’s secret motives are?

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  148. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Oh Ryan, you can’t expect the islamofacists secretly infiltrating New Zealand to give themselves away. They may look like us, under their medieval robes, and they may appear to share our aspirations for peace and prosperity, but how can we be sure that they are not potential terrorists, or that their children won’t become radicalised jihadists?

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  149. KevinH (1,227 comments) says:

    In New Zealand we are fortunate enough to enjoy freedoms and liberties not available in other countries. Immigrants to New Zealand come here for a variety of reasons, to start a new life, to escape tyranny and persecution or to grow and develope in a country that is peaceful and free of the threat of war.
    New Zealand is a tolerant country, all nationalities and religious groups are resident here, and we all co exist with a degree of mutual respect and co operation not found elsewhere.
    In respect of the women who were discriminated against because of their hijab, that is truly regretable , through this experience a better understanding of our quite different world views will emerge and hopefully in time New Zealanders will become more aware of this custom.
    But the key element for all stakeholders in this debate is tolerance and mutual respect and that is the goal we should all be working together to achieve.

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  150. tom hunter (4,805 comments) says:

    I see some Christian group has won their request for skimpy outfits to be banned at a swimming pool for next Easter.

    I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s good to see religious beliefs re-gaining some of the ground they lost in the 1960’s and 70’s. Pat Bartlett must be looking down from heaven with approval.

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  151. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Muslims in Britain as well as demanding sharia law are also demanding that the UK be divided into three islamic states.
    PG. You must be one of the most naive people ever created. There is no point in anyone entering into any discussion with you on this topic. You have a truly astounding ability to ignore facts. Dream on.

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  152. Pete George (23,558 comments) says:

    Muslims in Britain as well as demanding sharia law are also demanding that the UK be divided into three islamic states.

    Yeah, and if Chamberlain was still PM that’s what would happen.

    Here’s some facts:
    UK has about 2.9m Muslims, about 5% of the population.
    NZ has about 40k Muslims, about 1% of the population.

    Joanna, what facts do you have on specific problems in New Zealand?

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  153. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’d be interested in a reference to the demand for three islamic states.

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  154. LabourDoesntWork (290 comments) says:

    re: mikenmild
    British Muslims Call for Three Independent Muslim States . . . in the UK
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011433/Islamic-extremists-set-independent-states-UK-fall-Shariah-law.html

    Re: the question of terrorists exploiting the burqa as a disguise.
    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/06/terrorists-in-drag-bombs-beneath-the-burqa/

    UK has about 2.9m Muslims, about 5% of the population.
    NZ has about 40k Muslims, about 1% of the population.

    The UK at one time had a 1% Muslim population. It’s only 5% in the UK and they are openly seditious…

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  155. Ryan Sproull (7,109 comments) says:

    I would like to end this thread with the following:

    Burqa? I barely even know ‘er!

    (You’re welcome.)

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