The hijab debate
July 6th, 2011 at 10:12 am by David FarrarStuff reports:
Two New Zealand Muslim women say they fear they will not get jobs because of their appearance.
Their comments come in the wake of two incidents in Auckland in which bus drivers took exception to Saudi Arabian women wearing veils that covered their faces.
I think we need to be careful not to confuse two forms of hijab here. There is the hijab which leaves the face viewable and the hijab which does not.
I would hope few people would discriminate against someone because they wear a head scarf.
But it is quite a different issue with someone who insisted on wearing a hijab that covered the face. Yes you would have great difficulty gaining employment and fitting into a workplace, if you cover your face up.
The student, who did not want to be named because she did not want to harm her job prospects, said she could not imagine how she would be accepted into a corporate environment in her hijab.
“I know I’m going to have a hard time just being in my veil and applying to a corporate role … I can’t wait to work but sometimes I’m worried how I’m going to fit into a corporate environment where I’m not wearing a miniskirt.”
The mini-skirt rich corporate environment is more myth than substance in my experience (except PR firms). I think most workplaces are tolerant of cultural and religious diversity – within reason.
Mrs Adam, who is half Fijian-Indian and wears a hijab which exposes her face, said in 30 years she had only had two negative experiences in Wellington that she could remember.
Good. That is two too many, but once every 15 years is not too bad.
Other friends who wore the niqab, which covered the face aside from the eyes, reported they had been told to “go home” and sworn at.
This was uncommon, she said. “Wellingtonians are extremely friendly and tolerant.
“Wearing the niqab is a little more disconcerting for people and I do recognise that, you see someone’s face, that’s reassuring.”
It is up to each person what they wear in public. If they wish to wear a face covering niqab then that is up to them. But don’t expect to get a job easily if you won’t show your face for a job interview. Most people place considerable reliance on being able to see who we talk to and work with.
She rejected claims made online at dompost.co.nz yesterday that Muslims who came to New Zealand should abide by the culture.
The situation was not the same as Westerners dressing modestly when they visited Muslim countries, as “to be uncovered is not a religious tenet for the person, therefore it’s easier to not do it”.
She misses the point. Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not. If you stand up for your right to dress according to your religious values in NZ, you should stand up for the rights for non Muslims in other countries to not comply with Islamic dress codes.
Related posts:
- Good integration in NZ
- Kiwi Muslims
- Muslim women say burqa is affront to human dignity
- A rare extremist in NZ
July 6th, 2011 at 10:17 am
Are we being softened up for Al Quaeda strikes during the Rugby World Cup?
Public transport – trains, buses, ferries and planes – are popular targets for Al Quaeda.
Witness the London Transport bombings, the Madrid rail bombings, the Japanese subway gas attacks, and the Superferry attack in the Philipiness, and of course 9/11.
New Zealand troops have now attracted world wide Islamist attention, courtesy of our mainstream media, because our SAS troops were instrumental in cleaning up the Al Quaeda/Taleban assault on the Intercontinental Hotel in Afghanistan.
Islamists are already protesting at our involvement. These kind of activities have typically triggered the reprisals on public transport system. (See list above)
So it is not unreasonable to fear a terrorist bomb attack on our buses or trains – with a major one targeting Britomart on the night of the finals of the World Cup. I don’t believe the two Wellington bus drivers suffered from Mask Phobia. They are more likely to have had a rational fear of people dressed like suicide bombers.
Al Queda are now recruiting young men and women because they can move in public places under total cover of the Burka – the Burka veil conceals identity, and the gown covers all the plastique and wiring.
It is possible that the two incidents on Wellington buses have been timed to generate the understandable reaction from the bus drivers and in return produce the knee jerk liberal response from our Government, MSM, and Commissioners all guaranteeing the right for “women” to enter a train or bus or ferry in total head to toe disguise?
Two wired women on every carriage in Britomart on World Cup Final night would be a potent act of revenge for our SAS activities in Kabul.
And we seem to be setting it up.
The police will be diverted by Titewhai’s and other protests around the fields.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:18 am
You’re both talking about different things. She’s talking about the right to religious expression, and you’re talking about the right to wear what you want. In New Zealand, both of those rights support the freedom to wear a niqab. In Saudi Arabia, only the right to wear what you want supports the freedom to NOT wear a niqab.
The “culture” in New Zealand should be that people can wear whatever they want, not some particular way – just as it should be everywhere.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Owen, can you point to any recorded example of a suicide bomber wearing a burka?
I’m not saying there aren’t any. I just can’t think of any.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:30 am
Ryan:
Vote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34253090/ns/world_news-africa/t/deadly-blast-hits-somali-graduation-ceremony/
July 6th, 2011 at 10:34 am
“Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not.”
I am just wondering where we do that? the only areas I can think of are in the Marriage laws though that could be argued as general societal decision and possibly the use of “god” in the Oath and Anthem – used in a very irreligious way too.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:36 am
Owen
Wow, and I thought it was just an ignorant bus driver, but you’ve discerned a terrorist plot against the RWC. I trust you’ve shared your insights with the Police.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:37 am
MIKMS
Prayers in Parliament too.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:38 am
I wish anyone luck in getting past the “it’s religious and/or cultural” therefore we must kiss their arses brigade. We don’t need the trappings of a stone age, patriarchal society where women are second class possessions of men & must be hidden lest the pitiful Muslim male is unable to control himself after glimpsing an uncovered nose.
The issue has far less to do with Islam than the cultural garbage of mid eastern tribal societies. It has no place in modern NZ.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:44 am
nasska>The issue has far less to do with Islam than the cultural garbage of mid eastern tribal societies.
I don’t see why we need to respect religion. Religion is a set of beliefs based on a supernatural being, whereas politics is a set of beliefs not based on a supernatural being. We’re free to disrespect politics we find distasteful and the people who follow those politics, so why not treat religion the same?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:46 am
@mikenmild
Vote:True but they are up to the office holder’s discretion, an atheist may offer a prayer with no mention of god and likewise for any religious individual holding the offices of Deputy Speaker or Speaker
July 6th, 2011 at 10:46 am
mikenmild @ 10.36
Vote:a prissy, condesending, immature post that reveals much about the author.
July 6th, 2011 at 10:52 am
davidp
I’m in total agreement but since the apologists for Islam are usually socialists I try not to give them a chance to derail the debate. I have noted that the absence of red herrings renders them speechless in many arguments.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:00 am
Religous beliefs do not superceed our secular laws.
To claim that they do under the mask of “tollerance” is beyond stupidity, it is deliberate dishonesty.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:01 am
I think we need to think back to the reasons why these people are even allowed to live in NZ. I just can’t see what it is they are adding to NZ’s society let alone improving the gene pool. There must be a time (as in France) that we just say, “look you seem like nice people but you are entirely unsuited to contribute anything to NZ so stay back in Saudi Arabia where you may be more appreciated”. And it isn’t just these women it is the men as well.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:03 am
OTGO
‘improving the gene pool’
Really? Really? WTF?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:09 am
At the foot of the Stuff report, Anah Waenga is quoted: “Why don’t all you Muslim veil haters meet up and make a support group? Lol. This is stupid! You can’t discriminate, and put all Muslims in the same category as each other. Have we had any terrorist attacks from veiled woman in NZ yet? I think not!! So stop being racist and get over it!!”
IIRC we have experienced an armed attempted mid-air hi-jacking of an aircraft here in NZ – by a black robed/hooded Muslim woman. From memory it was a few years back, on a flight possibly into or from Blenheim. I do remember the press photos of the arrest – her ample love-handles exposed for all to see.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:10 am
A Saudi woman is recommended to wear a niqab, it is not legally mandated. Similarly a Saudi woman is recommended not to be employed other than to raise children and take care of the household.
Vote:If this woman really wants to get work in the corporate world her commitment to her Saudi heritage seems to be somewhat cherry picked.
July 6th, 2011 at 11:11 am
Owen
“Are we being softened up for Al Quaeda strikes during the Rugby World Cup?”
Lol….NO.
While I do not want to underestimate the threat of Muslim terrorists I doubt that the Muslim world would even know that the RWC is being played in NZ, indeed, 99% of the world do not know that the RWC is on and 99% do not care.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:11 am
What don’t you understand mikeenmild? It’s the opposite to subtracting from the gene pool. It’s why you married someone more intelligent than you. So your children can be better than you.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:11 am
OTGO
I don’t think that we even have to give them credit for adding to or subtracting from the gene pool. They are determined not to integrate in any way & that includes semen & eggs.
As an aside, in that multicultural country formerly known as Great Britain, the Pakistani Moslems are so keen to keep their ethnicity pure that they force arranged marriages between first cousins. Apparently this is contributing to dimwittedness alongside other genetic defects.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:14 am
BB question for you: What and were is the worlds most populious Muslim country.
Question 2: What organisation has the letters JI?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:23 am
Murray
1. Indonesia
2. Jamal islamia
As far as I know the Indonesian rugby team has not qualified (or more likely did not attempt to qualify because like the rest of the world they do not care) for the RWC, so…what point are you trying to make?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:28 am
Ryan Sproul
The only local example I know of for sure is the incident on an ANZ flight to Blenheim. However, do a google search on Burqa and terrorism and there are heaps. eg A woman covered in a head-to-foot burqa carried out a suicide bombing that killed more than 40 people in Pakistan, government officials said on Sunday, adding to security challenges confronting the U.S. ally. For a more diverse listing go to: http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/niqabs-and-burqas-as-security-threats
However, is some of the attacks we shall never know because the suicide bombers are blown to pieces.
However, Al Quaeda etc are recruiting younger people because they are easier to brainwash and that the Burqa is highly effective in concealing bombs etc – so if the garb becomes accepted – and even protected by PC decisions – then it becomes part of the armoury.
Big Bruv says the Muslim World is not aware of the RWC and he is right. But the terrorist Islamists are not stupid. If they want to target someone (like the Brits) they do their homework and identify the best target for the most emotional response.
They would not take long to identify the RWC as being of high symbolic content and will be attracting huge attention from the media of the Western World. When you attack the security of NZ, Australia, South Africa, AND the UK, England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, Canada, France, Italy and Japan – it is a highly cost effective operation.
Vote:The major reason France has banned the full burqa in public is the terrorist threat.
July 6th, 2011 at 11:33 am
BB
Indonesia are currently in Division Four of the Asian rugby champs. They are not rated on the IRB rankings (which stop at 94), so we won’t see tham at a RWC any time soon.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:34 am
Well done now go find a centre for defence and strategic study (Singapore) report of terrorist groups training and recuiting in New Zealand.
To cut to the chase they have identified 10.
Finally what do you think the softest target availible to them is?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:35 am
Don’t stop at banning the burqa – ban minarets (useful sniper nests) and languages other than English (used for terrorist communication).
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:38 am
Ironies abound when the Saudi Arabian consul lectures us on women’s rights!
Vote:I am totally intolerant of the full face mask – it is designed to isolate, subjugate and oppress, preventing women from taking full part in society even unable to eat and drink in public. Tolerance is no virtue when it allows female circumcision or other evils.
I have no respect for outdated and absurd beliefs that consign women (or men for that matter) to an inferior position on the basis of their sex alone and it dismays me that the Left places more importance on fatuous ideas of diversity than on women’s rights.
We should make our disapproval of the full face mask clearly known in the hope that one day these wretched women can enjoy a full life.
It makes me sick to see little schoolgirls in heavy scarves and robes and I wonder at the kind of male psyche that gains satisfaction from such an odious practice.
July 6th, 2011 at 11:46 am
This thread was guaranteed to be a troll feeding ground.
I usually try to avoid ad-hominems but on this occasion enough is enough.
@mikemild
You are a dick. Every comment you make is crap.
As to my point of view on the topic.
Vote:The hijab is a cultural expression not a religious one. I find it shallow that to express a contrary view on that cultural expression is to invite charges of religious intolerance and racism.
I guess that’s how you shut down any argument these days.
July 6th, 2011 at 11:47 am
BeaB
Very good points, especially re the Saudis on human rights. I’d be a bit more tolerant. Many people are happy to wear their cutsomary dress and would not see themselves as oppressed as a consequence. I’d be careful about automatically assuming someone wearing a scarf is an oppressed female.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 11:57 am
This is the beginning of a phenomena that we have seen in other countries before……creeping sharia.
http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/australia-after-uproar-muslim-says-mistake-to-mention-sharia-law/
http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/landmark-ruling-in-new-zealand-recognizes-sharia-law/
Whats next, publicly funded Muslim only swimming lessons?:
http://pommygranate.blogspot.com/2007/01/creeping-sharia-in-new-zealand.html
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
come to NZ and wear a full burka..be prepared to get hissed and sneered at .. head scarf dont have an issue with but full burka can fuck off..and so can their shitty arrogant attitudes ( close up the other nite, carpark ). You are in NZ…act like a Kiwi not a raghead.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
Mark53
Should we allow such adoptions from Pakistan?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
“Whats next, publicly funded Muslim only swimming lessons”
In chc some years ago a group of muslim demanded that the city council provide a shielded area for them to swim in at QE 2 swimming complex..they didnt want ” others ” to see them….thin end of the wedge.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
Recently elected U.S. Congressman from Florida, retired Lt. Colonel Allen West
…we can not allow them to come in to our country and proselytize in their mosques and talking about overthrowing our government, our constitutional democracy, saying they want to replace it with sharia, and then we say that’s ok, that’s freedom of speech, that’s freedom of religion; that’s not, that’s sedition…this is not going away…there are two ways you end the war…you win or you lose…
~ Allen West
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
Is that quote from Allen West the convicted war criminal?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5231950/Veiled-woman-kicked-off-bus
I note the article above mentions a threat that if we all don’t behave it will threaten $300 million of Saudi language school tourism.
Sameer Aljabri, the husband of one of the women, said he would lodge an official complaint with the Human Rights Commission on behalf of his wife
The complainant Mr Sameer Aljabri, is a Saudi consulate diplomat in Auckland.
Why does the Saudi consulate in Auckland have 34 diplomats?
The Saudi consulate in Auckland have a cultural/education office in Greenlane with 17 staffers. What, I wonder are they teaching there? How to stone gays and adulterers? Are they funding Wahhabi mosques and “education” in Auckland?
Consulate-General of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Auckland
Street Address: Level 13, HSBC Building, 1 Queen Street, Auckland
Postal Address: PO Box 105986, Auckland 1143
Telephone: (09) 912 7808
Facsimile: (09)912 6659
Email: nzcon@mofa.gov.sa
Office hours: 9.00am-4.00pm
Staff Details:
Mr Ahmed N DH Al Johani, Consul-General
Mr Abdulkareem M A Helal, Vice Consul-General
Mr Mona A M Al Saadi
Mr Saleh M A Al Enazi, Vice-Consul (Economic and Trade)
Mr Majid A M Al Zowaimil, Consul
Mrs Hasna Mujawwil E Al Zowaimil
Mr Abdullah Hamad M Alshopramy, Consul
Mr Ibrahim Saeed A Alhazmi, Consul
Mrs Maha Almahmadi
Mr Muteb M A Al Rusayyis, Consular Employee
Mrs Mona Mubarak A Al Mawash
Mr Albaraa Hassan A Attar, Consular Employee
Ms Munirah Saleh A Alomran, Consular Employee
Mr Sultan Mindil Q Alshawi, Consular Employee
Mr Haithem Ahmed H Alhamoud, Consular Employee
Mrs Soha Hmad M Alzare
Mr Fahad Abdullah M Aljarallah, Consular Employee
Mr Muhammad Fahad DH Al Suhaimi, Consular Employee
Mr Abdullah Al Muwaina, Consular Employee
Mrs Nawal Mohammad A. Al Ajab
Mr Saleh Tulayan G Alanazi, Consular Employee
Education/Cultural Office, Auckland
Vote:Street Address: 190 Great South Road, Greenlane, Auckland
Telephone: (09) 903 9600
Facsimile: (09) 903 9624
Staff Details:
Mr Sattam Bakheet R Al Otaiby, Consul (Cultural)
Mrs Aljawharah Qedan S Al Otaibi
Mr Bandar Fahad Al Harkan, Consul
http://www.mfat.govt.nz Tuesday 5th of July 2011
Mrs Rana Alhammad
Mr Faisal Fahad Al Rashed, Consul
Mr Mohammed Abdulrahman Al Hudayb, Consul
Mrs Eman Al Mousa
Mr Abdullah Alsolai, Consul
Mr Ali Omar Mohammed Al Suhaibani, Consul
Mr Nawaf Mohammad I Asheri, Consul
Mr Sameer Al Jabri, Consul
Mrs Mi Saud H Alosaimi
Mr Bander Aljowaie, Consul
Mr Hussin Alshahrany, Consul
Mr Abdulrahman Eid S Aljohani, Consul
Mr Humod Allihyani, Consular Employee
Mr Theniyan Alenezi, Consular Employee
Mr Hassan Aldossary, Consular Employee
July 6th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
I find the paraphenelia of orthodox Muslim worships, like beards, turbans and black sacks for women highly offensive. It reminds me of my classmates that were brutaly murdered in the name of Islam. Makes me feel unsafe and when I see these people makes me wanna reach for my sidearm. What about my freedom of speech and my rights for selfexpression?
Vote:I find it so offensive, I would class wearing a face sack the same as gang patch – pure intimidation.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
So, we are being lectured by Saudi Arabia on being a more tolerant and inclusive country. Un-be-frikking-lievable.
Vote:http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2007/05/a-christian-caught-in-mecca-what-fate-awaits
As for the threat of losing Saudi education tourists, has France observed any such effect from banning the burqua? Has Switzerland from banning minarets? What sort of Muslims would stop coming if there was a burqua/niqab ban? What sort would be more likely to come? Presumably those wanting to escape the gender apartheid of their homelands.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
I suggest a reverse slut-walk.
Let’s all wear, in the interests of equality, either
1) niquab, the full works
2) motorbike helmet or
3) cowboy hat and scarf tied across lower face
on Friday week, climb on and off buses, taxis, go in and out of banks, and into the cop shop to say hello. Let’s see how that goes, shall we?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
I’m sure DPF puts these sorts of posts up because he enjoys the predictable intollerant ranting that results.
Anyway, some tolerant anti-ranting from me.
I find it sad that in the 21st century, many still find foreigners who are different from them as a threat.
I also find it sad that a chain of “logic” that goes “some bad people wear burquas; this person is wearing a burqua, therefore this person is bad” is convincing to some readers of this blog.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
Personally, I don’t think enough attention has been paid to how easy it is to conceal explosives inside a bra.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
Or a rugby ball.
Think about it.
Just think about it.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
You obviously meant to say Allen West, decorated veteran who was accused of misconduct as a result of firing gun shots near the head of an Iraqi police officer he suspected of withholding information about a plot to kill him and some of the soldiers under his command. Following the dropping of court martial charges he retired from the US Army after a 20-year career.
Yeah – that’s War Criminal standard. Sort of like saying that Darren Hughes retired from Parliament after committing sexual abuse – correct?
Sheesh. What is it about Black Republicans that brings out the Left’s inner KKK?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
mikenmild
As a green-eyed, blonde western woman and having had the very dubious pleasure of having to abide by Islamic dress codes in several Islamic countries I can attest that after a very short while, the psychological efffects of having to cover up from head to toe continuously, and to be constantly aware of the need to make sure the veil is fixed in place lest (at the very least) great offence be caused to men forcing them to lose control (and at the worst) being taken away by the police (as actually happens), takes its toll. Very quickly I became fixated on MY responsibility not to offend any men around me, not to be seen to be anything but subservient and malleable. In the end I didn’t want to take off my veil and resisted until the last moment because it gave me a sense of security which comfortably replaced the sense of independence I had lost.
Even in the privacy of my own hotel room I had to be fully veiled if I was expecting room service (only delivered by men) or veil myself very quickly if there was a knock on the door. My bathrobe even had a hood in case a man came to my door and caught me unawares. And they did. They came at all times of the day and night, and at times when they were not supposed to be there i.e room service breakfast was to be delivered at 6am, they would arrive at 5:30 or 5am. I had men (from the hotel) asking me to unveil myself in the privacy of my room so they could look at me unadorned.
The idea that wearing a veil protects a man from being unable to control his urges upon seeing skin was in my case proven to be wholly untrue. I had a Muslim man try and enter my room twice in one evening (the second time he tried to force his way in) – the first evening I was in Iran. He stalked me for two weeks, finding out my phone number and calling me repeatedly. Waiting for me to come out of buildings, following me.
I had another man from Lebanon ask me to unveil myself on my flight to Dubai. He asked to touch me (hold my hand? touch my body?) after about two minnutes of chatting me up – he pushed an older man out of the seat next to me so he could sit by me instead. When I refused to let him he told me about his wife and children.
And somehow the behaviour of these men was my sole responsibility?
Hiding behind a religious edict which doesn’t exist in Sharia law is fraudulent.
I am assuming you are a man – unless you are a woman and have experienced what it is like to be veiled in an Islamic country, I suggest you refrain from commenting on how women feel about it.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
@ MIKMS, 10:34 am – “Certain countries impose their religious viewpoints on people through the law. NZ generally does not.”
See statutory references to Maori spirituality for an example of where NZ does so.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
I think you’ll find the US Transport Safety Authority has – at least to Judge from their search techniques of 6-year old girls and 95-year old cancer patients.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
The Burqa, Hajib and other coverings are an extension of the concept of namus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus
While that concept of Namus is not the sole property of any one religion, it is Islam that has taken it to extremes. It remains a physical embodiment of the lower status afforded to women from these cultural backgrounds and is anathema to the rights that women have fought for for decades in this and other countries.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Yeah, Sarkozygroupie. Coz I’m a man and haven’t travelled to Saudi Arabia I should STFU? Ha ha. Just like those pro-apartheid drongoes in the 80s, the ones who liked to say you really couldn’t comment unless you’d been to SA.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
mikenmild
You can say what you like – just try to do so with some kind of authority if you want to people to take you seriously – you are sorely lacking in that in the posts you have made so far.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
A couple of correspondents above,
Vote:‘I doubt the muslim world is even aware the RWC is being played in New Zealand” and,
‘ but youve discerned a terorist plot to the RWC,’
may care to consider that many muslim terrorist acts which are committed in western countries are the work
of second and third generation muslim immigrants. UK, Spain , USA , etc.
We now have 40,000 plus muslims in NZ, and many now are second generation.
We know they will not integrate into any western society.
This is where a problem may come from, if not sooner then later.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
tom hunter arseholes, they were generous and allowed him to retire after he had tortured a bloke who had done nothing.
The prick should have got twenty years scrubbing a cell with a toothbrush.
As for that woman on the aircraft, christ what a bunch of fucking wimps the pakeha passengers were, not one of them belted her.
Immigrant, you are a visitor, do not like our rules, fuck off back to jesusland.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
Face masks, what a fucking good idea for that mob whose women have five chins, other wise known as the brethren.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Thank you slightlyrightly and others with clear heads.
The rest of you liberal/leftist wallies please go live in a sharia dominant territory for a year as women in a burqa or as dhimmis and then come back to tell us your experiences,.
We are a democracy still and I think it is fair to require all people in public to be known by having their faces available to view.
Even more so in an area of security concern like banks, building societies, post offices and any others you can to list.
This has nothing to do with religion only openness and fairness in a democracy, if the Mohammed lovers don’t like it they should stuff off back to where they came from.
We are not Dhimmis here contrary to what Phil Goof or Jonkey may say.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
grumpy
Allen’s a black Tea Party congressman, and so must be adored.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
I think it’s rich they are a having a cry about not being passed over for work. I wonder why that is? I’d say having a sack clad co worker woudl be pretty unsettling at work. Fuck up teh whole team dynamic.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
We are a democracy, so everyone should be wearing name tags, exposed faces and mood rings.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
I think you’ll find that in choosing whether to stand against misogyny and religious bigotry or avoid being called a racist, the Left has long since chosen the latter.
Well – apart from GOH, who never lets anything stand between him and a relentless focus on NZ brown skin-white skin interactions ……. Oh wait!
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Irony – esp. Dramatic or Tragic Irony
Vote:literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character’s words or actions are clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
Oxford American Dictionary
July 6th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Easter & Christmas trading laws
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
If many are second generation doesn’t that suggest they have integrated to a fair extent? They may still go to different churches (like many non-Muslims), and they may wear things that some others don’t like (like skanks and Mobs), but they are living and working and paying taxes here.
How many of that 40,000 do you think are at risk of causing “a problem”?
I don’t like some male muslim attitudes towards women. I also don’t like some Maori and PI and pakeha and Christian male attitudes towards women either. Should they all be banished from the country?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
and religious / cultural costumes & practises like white robes, pointy hoods and cross-burning.
Oh, wait.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:33 pm
Woman faces boot despite NZ family
An Englishwoman whose family has permanent residence faces deportation because her natural father – whom she has never met – did not sign forms for her residency. </I.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10736612
I am outraged when I read this sort of thing happening at the same time we have problems from migrants that have no intention of assimilating.
Those who rubbish the idea of terrorism what do you think would happen if New Zealand was heavily involved in a war with a Muslim country? I mean serious not just a few troops half way around the world.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:34 pm
mikenmild But he is a good little uncle Tom, yes masssa, no massa
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Who ever told me to go back to Jerusalem
I fought them in Chechnia you antisemite peice of shit.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
grumpy
And he lives in ‘Plantation’, Florida!
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Hijab/Burqa does have a place in NZ …….. On Sue Bradford for one
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 1:48 pm
Fuck this thread.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
@Owen:
The only local example I know of for sure is the incident on an ANZ flight to Blenheim.
As far as I’m aware, Asha ali Abdille wasn’t wearing a burqa — and she certainly wasn’t a jihadi. She had a long history of mental health problems and alcohol abuse and was estranged from her own community. She was a nutter.
To attempt to draw a connection between that incident and some poor woman being refused entry to a bus is ludicrous — but not as ludicrous as fabricating a paranoid conspiracy about terror plots. Can I suggest you consult your alleged skeptical principles and limit yourself to the actual evidence?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
immigant so what the fuck are you doing in this little green land ?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
mikenmild jeez, I hope he stays away from those pure xtian hard working white women in Plantation
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Nice comment Russell.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Grumpy brown mofo throwing race into the pot again, all we need is Phillu and the stage will be set.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Grumpy brown mofo throwing race into the pot again, all we need is Phillu and the stage will be set.
I don’t believe I mentioned race at all, although you may care to ask Owen what he was thinking about.
I was more on the “try not to be a paranoid fantasist loon” tip.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Good to see people who are so confident that their leftist ideology protects them from charges of being racists that they can indulge in racism. You’ll love this:
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:19 pm
tom
Who’s leftist ideology?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
tom hunter you must admit Cain does perform well for his white xtian masters.
Vote:The same type of people who believed it was good form to set a gelignite charge to kill some young girls who happened not to be white.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Wearing a burqa or scarf in a western country has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with making a political statement. Like a previous writer , I have been forced to rug up in an islamic country. We fit in with them in their countries , so why can’t they do the same? Life is a two way street but not with these nutters. Why are Christians and others not allowed to ”express themselves” by wearing crosses , building churches etc in their country? How many people , particularly Philipinos , have been beheaded in S.A. for ”expressing their religion?”
Vote:Good posts on the threat of terrorism , also the one with all the info on the Sowdi Barbarian staff.
Whatever happened to the terrorist in Auckland who set his sites on a nuclear plant in Sydney?? Last I heard he was still fighting with immigration NZ.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
What types of clothing on what type of people who have what type of beliefs should be banned to avert a war? Surely we must be prepared against any possibility, not just Muslim.
A law has to be more specific than “people Chuck thinks could be a threat”.
But maybe you’re right, a worlddwide ban on covering faces may solve all the worl’d violence.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
I presume you are just talking about some sorts of scarfs. What about carrying stop signs? That’s not fitting in with many people politically.
How would you define “fitting in” here? It would be handy for them to know how they should do that.
Would wearing jandals in summer and gumboots in winter fit in ok? I’d have a problem with that, I’m ok with gumboots but don’t like wearing jandals, should I go back to where my maternal grandparents came from? Or where my great great grandmother came from?
Should we ban Pacific and Scottish men from wearing non-trousers?
Vote:Ban white rugby jerseys and black soccer jerseys?
July 6th, 2011 at 2:39 pm
I’m offended by the burka as it makes a statement about me as a male (and about lesbians). I’m not one who likes to see what they’ve had for breakfast either but the eyes poking out thing is very unfriendly… sort of slanderous. Imaginge having a neighbor who builds a big fence all around and keeps the blinds down and what about playing together as kids?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
ryan spoul is definitely onto it with his suggestions that other items be checked out for bombs…..
like underpants and shoes……oh wait…..
Last night that taxpayers burden Yoris de Beast said “barriers” should not be placed (by us) in front of these people (niqab wearers).
Then WTF is a niqab when it’s not a barrier!
He should be sacked not Thompson. To think I employ that idiot.
Vote:And Goof equates nuns habits to the niqab. What an idiot.
And Key declares we’re “multicultural”. What an idiot.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
Going on a date with one would be an interesting experience? You’d have to be a masochist or you might think they wear that because they can’t trust themselves?
Vote:Come to think of it if some of us blokes went about like that it might be an improvement?
July 6th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
Well i am not offended that a women of faith chooses to wear a burqa, hell she can wear a pink tutu for all i care. It’s when religion demands recognition under law that i have issues.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
And Goof equates nuns habits to the niqab. What an idiot. True you can see a nuns face, expression etc .
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 2:59 pm
I suggest the two women try their luck at Curia Ltd, they are likely to find their applications preferred to that of Christian women all other things being equal.
BEREAL is on the mark, as in other countries it is the second generation we have to fear, those who have little experience of actual life in their parents countries. They receive visits from firebrand Imans in their Mosques advocating Jihad as their ultimate duty. All it takes is a nutter like the one who was going to fly a plane into the stands during the Springbok tour. Al Quaeda’s main tactic these days is for small independent 6 man terror units acting independently. Sooner or later we will be targeted.
[DPF: Apart from the fact I don't do most of the hiring at Curia, what on Earth makes you think Christian women would be discriminated against?]
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
Great way to build cultural understanding:
These bus drivers (I’m presuming they were men) should have their cultural awareness broadened by being adopted into the Saudi tradition of “breast milk sons”.
“In order to reduce the difficulties of strict sex segregation in modern life, some clerics issued a fatwa encouraging women to provide breast milk to any man with whom she comes into regular contact. Abdel Mohsen Obeikan, a renowned Islamic scholar, an adviser to the royal court and consultant to the Ministry of Justice, said in 2010: “The man should take the milk, but not directly from the breast of the woman. He should drink it …
Vote:…Another cleric disagreed, saying the man should take the milk straight from her breast.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
July 6th, 2011 at 3:10 pm
What if the Bus driver doesn’t want to take part in cultural understanding? what if the bus driver just doesn’t like people covering their face, no reason given he just doesn’t like it.
Should he be hounded with flame and steel because of that?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Banana
Apparently he suffers from a ‘mask phobia’. Presumably from watching too many Batman and Lone Ranger shows.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Re: Allen West comments, “massa, massa”… white xtian masters, etc
The clinging of leftists to the belief they are on the side of racial minorities, is a bit rich. It’s proof they insist on being judged by their “good intentions” rather than on the results of their policies. If they were really interested in objective reality, than their narcissistic parading of themselves coupled with gratuitous slandering of the right, they would recognise the utter failure of what they’ve supported for decades. In the US, do they care about the % of blacks in prison, or failing government schools, or the 500% higher abortion rate for black women, or the shockingly high rate of single-motherhood; subsidised and entrenched as it is by their own failed policies? The narcissism is so great they seem happy for the people they claim to side with to keep getting so ill-served by the political class just so they can keep wringing their hands, and patting themselves on the back for not being one of them Racistrightwingers.
Stop and look at the issue rationally and one can see clearly how the race-baiting narrative and promises of Big Government has forever separated those who’ve bought into it from true emancipation and self-reliance. Forever blaming others is a Really Bad Way to empower yourself.
(Btw the Civil Rights Act was a Republican initiative, and MLK Jr was himself a Republican. Somehow the issue got hijacked by self-promoting leftists who then rewrote history, and recreated slavery in the form of welfare dependency that serves no one’s interests but the political class. See Ann Coulter’s biting comment about the issue on Youtube video GKM9abol3Uw …)
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:27 pm
Banana Llama
….”It’s when religion demands recognition under law that i have issues.”….
And that is what the apologists for Islam ignore or hide. Sharia Law is the goal for Muslims. As long as they represent only a small percentage of the population they have to content themselves with mumbling about the infidels while associating with their own kind. Once they build up numbers the heat goes on as can be witnessed by concession after concession granted by the lily livered weaklings who dominate politics in Britain.
I have seen no mention above of the status of religion in politics in Islamic countries. We are fortunate enough to live in a secular democracy where church & state are kept at arms length. No such division exists in say Iran where any law passed by the elected parliament must be acceptable to Islam’s hierarchy. As such the power of the Imams cannot be challenged. Sort of the democracy you have when you’re not having a democracy.
Are we so seriously short of population that we have to welcome those who wish only to destroy our way of life?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:39 pm
nasska
Got any evidence that NZ muslims ‘wish only to destroy our way of life’? Just asking, becasue I haven’t heard that from any NZ muslims I know.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:45 pm
mikenmild, similarly none of the Maoris I know think that they are discriminated against. Good to know we can put that behind us eh?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:48 pm
I’ve asked this question before. The answer is generally along the lines of, “They act like they don’t wish only to destroy our way of life? THAT’S JUST HOW SNEAKY THEY ARE.”
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:52 pm
Just because something is not happening in NZ now, doesn’t mean it will not happen. Just like we never used to have Police being shot at. Happens in other parts of the world first and then trickles down to us. Inevitably.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
…”Just asking, becasue I haven’t heard that from any NZ muslims I know.”…
If you require hard evidence there will be no shortage of reading material describing the goals of “The Prophet”……in the library & on line.
Do you seriously think that Muslims are going to come running up to you & say “Gidday Mike, oh & by the way when we get enough of us here we’re going to have to kill you….no hard feelings”????
Try to get “Spellcheck”….it’s getting even harder to read your comments.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
Or it doesn’t happen here because we don’t act like a pack of idiots, and it will continue to not happen here so long as we continue to not act like a pack of idiots.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
Yeah, and them Jews with their Jew gold ain’t gonna flaunt it. No, sir. The poorer them ghettoes get, the richer them Jews all is.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
nasska
That would be a ‘no, there is no evidence’, then? Or should I dump muslim friends in case they are plotting to kill me?
immigrant
Never had Police shot at, eh?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Or it doesn’t happen here because we don’t act like a pack of idiots, and it will continue to not happen here so long as we continue to not act like a pack of idiots.
Cause the people in the UK are Idots yeah
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Hell, we’d better be more vigilant then.
Expel all Fijians (some are Muslim anyway) unless they start a coup.
Expel all English in case they try and blow up Parliament, or take land off us.
Expel all Scotsmen because they wear funny clothes.
Expel all Irish – both Protestants and Catholics – so we don’t have our own Troubles.
Expel all Maori, you never know when they’ll scrap amongst themselves.
Expel all Dalmations.
Expel all South Africans.
Expel all French.
Expel all Americans.
Expel all Australians.
Expel all Turks, Italians, Germans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans.
You never know what any of them might start doing here. They have histories you know.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
Most people of Islamic faith i have worked with have been pleasant and accommodating, i even had a pretty good discussion with some on my night crew about Christianity. I don’t see them becoming extremist, they enjoy titty bars, the beach, our summers and our freedoms.
As for the Sharia extremists, well i have never met one but i don’t want to bury my head in the sand as they do exist and their demands are insatiable, the constant pandering to this minority is cause for concern as it emboldens others with different views to be extreme.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:12 pm
I wonder how long ago it was since people in the UK were saying “but none of the muslims I know want to set up independent Sharia states in England”
Vote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011433/Islamic-extremists-set-independent-states-UK-fall-Shariah-law.html
July 6th, 2011 at 4:13 pm
I think if we feel like we’re missing out on Sharia extremists in New Zealand, we can create some of our own. Start legally discriminating against Muslims, socially discriminating against Muslims, isolating and ostracising them, maybe join in a few illegal invasions of countries where their relatives live. We can finally catch up to Australia!
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
mikenmild
Try a quick read of these.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Journal/stories.aspx?id=73891
Vote:http://thewestislamandsharia.blogspot.com/2011/04/muslim-brotherhoods-quest-for-world.html
(This one is only a blog but has useful links.)
also
http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs74.html
July 6th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
So whats your point Ryan?
I like turtles.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Pete George
Wipe the froth off your mouth, its unbecoming.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Well you’ve hit at the heart of the problem, as many in the modern West believe exactly the opposite – that “offending” certain groups will result in a self-fulfilling prophecy as moderates are driven into the arms of extremists and the extremists are driven to become more extreme.
Amazing how asking Westerners to stand up against a misogynistic, violent religion is automatically “offensive” – not to mention being the same thing as requesting it to be banned.
Funny how these arguments never emerge in dealing with the followers of any faith or culture other than Islam.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Tom,
I think there’s a lot of ground between the kind of discrimination against Muslims that I condemn and the kind of standing up to misogyny and violence that you (and I) applaud.
I don’t think that merely “offending” certain groups will result in a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do think that systematically being dicks to certain groups could result in a self-fulfilling prophecy. And there’s a lot of dickishness about, and a lot more dickishness being proposed.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
mikenmild
….”Or should I dump muslim friends in case they are plotting to kill me?”…..
No.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:32 pm
Ryan, I don’t think we’re missing out on Sharia extremists. It would be uncharacteristically naive of you to think that that there cannot be some proportion of NZ muslims who are extremists. Statistically speaking it is very unlikely.
Vote:I think NZ has a better track record than other countries in respect to integration of immigrants, probably because we were already a multicultural society. The real question is what is fair?
In the context of this post, I don’t think it unreasonable to require that full face masks, by any name, be removed in appropriate circumstances.
July 6th, 2011 at 4:33 pm
“isolating” Muslims. Isn’t the wearing of a niqab/burkha self-isolation?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
nasska – very perceptive, I agree
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Nor do I. Just a question of appropriate circumstances, really.
I think this thread got pretty derailed pretty fast by Owen McShane’s doomsaying in the first comment.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
In the context of this post, I don’t think it unreasonable to require that full face masks, by any name, be removed in appropriate circumstances.
How would you define “full face mask” and “appropriate circumstances” in law, and required by whom?
Would you allow an exemption for people who have facial disfigurements or must not be exposed to direct sunlight?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:47 pm
PG
How about a Muslim woman having the right to make up her own mind? A few generations of such radical thinking & they may even reach the level of rights enjoyed by NZ women a century ago. As long as Muslim males own their women & girl children in the same way as they would own a camel or a goat we are doing the wretched women no favours by sanctioning the sick customs enforced on them.
Forget “cultural differences”….they’re a crock of shit.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:47 pm
It’s worth pointing out too that the people we’re welcoming are often those who have left theocratic countries in favour of sharing “our way of life” here in New Zealand. If they wanted to live in a theocracy, New Zealand is a pretty shitty choice of destination.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:49 pm
Is it not already illegal in New Zealand to force someone to wear something against their will?
(Except when the police force women to wear tops in public, etc.)
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:51 pm
“Would you allow an exemption for people who have facial disfigurements” – nope, not even for Sue.
Seriously – you know you can’t walk into a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet. Why should a niqab be different?
And this is definitely worth your time:
Vote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/religion-and-beliefs/news/article.cfm?c_id=301&objectid=10736547
July 6th, 2011 at 4:54 pm
That link is a good example RightNow.
I don’t see how that discriminates against a particular group and those who get their knickers in a knot over it can go fish.
-bugger me i enjoyed reading the herald for once.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 4:54 pm
Ryan Sproull
If these people are escaping from a theocracy then why would they possibly want to bring the baggage of face sacks & the like with them?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
How about a Muslim woman having the right to make up her own mind?
I’m all for that. Maybe they do make up their own mind – some of them anyway.
A right to make up one’s own mind is a difficult thing to enforce.
How about a kiwi bloke having the right to make up his own mind whether he takes his boots off before coming inside? Could you enforce that?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 5:15 pm
PG
I’m finding the analogy between boots & burqas a little hard to follow. No mind, I think we agree on it being the wearer’s choice. It’s just that I’d like to put the Imams & the women’s owners feet to the fire & find out whether the women really feel empowered about going through life looking like a letterbox.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 5:19 pm
RightNow
Thanks for that link. Food for thought:
‘A new law requiring Muslim women wearing burqas or niqabs in New South Wales to show their faces to police if required has been accepted by Islamic organisations and may be followed in other states.
Vote:Muslim groups, including the Islamic Council of New South Wales, Muslims Australia, and the Islamic Friendship Association of Australia welcomed the move.
“[The planned law has] balanced the needs of people who choose to cover their face as well as the needs of law enforcement and security,” association head Keyser Trad said.’
July 6th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
Damn burkas!
As if my job as a ninja-hunter wasnt difficult enough!!!
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
Showing your mug is enforceable alright.
In the past I’ve had experiences with wearing balaclavas in the dead of winter [I know, I know], the cops see you and you roll it up,…..fair enough. One of the lawyer types feel free to correct me, it is still my understanding that you must show your face in public and not hide it totally.
It should be purely a case of identification trumping religious identity.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 5:50 pm
What do the kiwi feminist things think about a burka.
Vote:The world is going burka beserk. Who let the masks out!
Oh well, the All Blacks will play in pink next and John Key and the greedy maori sods will sell the country to the kooks.
July 6th, 2011 at 6:09 pm
fatboy slim
…”What do the kiwi feminist things think about a burka.”….
That’s the strangest thing about the whole issue……There’s nary a peep, not a placard, no protests & none of the shrill screeching we have come to expect from the normally rabid feminists. While I accept that the streets would be incredibly beautified if Bradford & her lot stuffed their heads in burqas there is a genuine issue of Women’s Rights here & they are ignoring it.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 6:47 pm
Question for toad and the gals – does a Bradford burka come in rain-forest green?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Ryan
I certainly don’t think that booting some girl off a bus because she’s wearing the full garb is fighting against misogyny. Rather it’s just adding to her burden in that area while doing nothing to change the people who insist she wear it if she wants to remain part of her community (and perhaps even family).
As far as Owen’s speculations in the very first comment are concerned, were I an Islamic suicide bomber I’d plan to look as “Western” as possible. I’m fairly sure the September 11 crew were not wearing full beards and robes, let alone hijabs.
However I’m also not much interested in acting like it’s still September 10 2001, ignoring the rather large number of Islamists in the world as a bunch of laughable nutters with little influence and presenting an insignificant threat.
Nor am I much impressed by the many left-wingers whose response – even after 9/11, the Tube Bombers, Major Hassan and numerous other attacks in the name of Allah – is to sneeringly treat concerns about the religion or responses to it’s nastier aspects with all the tired, old cliches of dismissal such as “paranoid”, “ignorant”, etc, etc.
I’m especially not impressed when the people leveling such criticisms are the same bunch of so-called “progressives” who refuse to do a damned thing to break the misogyny, resist the cultural ghettoisation – or even push back against the numerous acts of societal intimidation over books and art that so-called “moderate” muslims have indulged in over the years. The response of the Left on these issues, as even some left-wingers recognise, has been spineless and pathetic.
In some cases they’ve actually done the Islamists work for them – so as not to cause “offense” in advance. Last year the American Association of Pediatricians decided to amend their previous opposition to the practice of clitoridectomies in order to accomodate certain (cough) communities in the USA. Or take a look at Yale university publishing a scholarly study on the “Muhammed Cartoons” – without including the cartoons.
Do these not count as worrisome, growing Islamist influences or are they claims about “creeping Sharia law” that should be sneeringly dismissed as “silly”?
FFS. Who needs Islamists when you’ve got dhimmis like that in your midst.
I’m not asking for banning. I’m simply asking for people – especially the left – to stand up for all the aspects of the West that they claim to believe in, not just “tolerance”.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 7:24 pm
My two cents:
1. If a law exists in New Zealand, it has to apply equally to everyone, with no exceptions for religion. As soon as you start doing that, the law is immediately worthless
Vote:2. If you find that the law in NZ conflicts with certain aspects of your culture/religion, you are free to leave NZ. There are over 190 other countries to choose from, where you may find suitable conditions.
3. On a public street or private residents, wear what you want within the law (ie decency laws)
4. Private organisations are allowed to refuse access/entry to whoever they want, based on whatever reasons they want
5. People have the right to complain/boycott/publicise what they see as negative applications of #3 and #4 above. They should not, however, expect it to be legally banned.
6. NZ has to stop trying to be everything to everyone. We preach tolerance, which is great, but there has to be the understanding that certain beliefs are totally incompatible with each other. In the end, we have to have our own way of doing things that we as a culture believe in.
July 6th, 2011 at 7:27 pm
Poll.
Should women be forced to remove veils when using public services?
http://post.polls.yahoo.com/quiz/quizresults.php?poll_id=62107&wv=1
The numbers are there, but I want to know who votes ‘don’t know?’ 311 so far but why? Leftie polljackers just to fudge the result?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
People shouldn’t be offended because someone wants to see their face, it is not an offensive request.
But this is offensive!!
Vote:
July 6th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Yes, that’s offensive. But hey, at least she read the book before burning it.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
Why “especially the left”? Why not everyone equally?
The notion that “the right” are strong, noble, intelligent and loyal and “the left” are all sorts of prats is a bit pathetic isn’t it? It’s like a bunch of kids saying “it’s all their fault”!
The guts of humanity is somewhere in the middle.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 8:21 pm
As always, Pat Condell nails it:
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 8:51 pm
Yes, that’s offensive. But hey, at least she read the book before burning it.
Ha! Good point!
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 9:17 pm
As always, Pat Condell nails it:
He sure did! middle class left wing prickery be damned!!
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 9:28 pm
They bring their baggage of believing in God and condemning homosexuality with them, as a rule, too. Maybe it’s force of habit. Maybe they like it. Who knows.
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
…”Maybe it’s force of habit. Maybe they like it. Who knows.”…
Right On….so why don’t we imagine our Islamic friend weighing up which country he wants to emigrate to. He’s sold the house & the donkey, assembled his household possessions, clothing, wife, female children & everything else he owns & seeks new pastures.
“Ah Here’s what we,re looking for…..Modern, secular democracy with independant free thinking citizens who don’t go for bullshit.”
Doesn’t this smell a little to you?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Why is everyone so very scared of Islam?
Why?
If you are, I suggest you study it, on the advice of Tsn Tzu: Know your enemy.
If you’re not, that’s good, for I’m not either. Why would I be?
I’m quite scared of the mental fanatics who get so carried away with their fanaticism they’ll use Islam as a justification for doing inhuman things to other people. There are quite a few of them, around probably would you say about 3 million, who are prepared to die for Allah, really and truly? I mean how many could there be, really. We’re talking about a person blowing themselves and others up, for real. Would you do it? Duh. Why the hell therefore, does anyone think your average common-or-garden Muslim is simply by definition, on the opposite end all the time, whereby every single Muslim in the entire world just can’t wait to pull the rip-cord.
I mean, isn’t that just a teeny bit nuts?
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 10:18 pm
I’m just waiting for a race relations complaint that the rugby team ‘the Crusaders’ is a hurtful, offensive name and should be banned so no ones sensibilities is upset.
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 12:28 am
Neutral Observer, surely not!
I mean, I hear that the next S15 expansion teams are the Berlin Stormtroopers, and the Moscow Pogroms.
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 9:22 am
There’s the slightest scent of someone who’s more concerned about someone being from a rival religion to their own, than from a different culture from their own.
It sounds to me that you’ve described someone who really doesn’t want to live in the country of their birth. Given that the country of their birth in this case is a theocracy, it’s pretty strong evidence against your “they’re secretly infiltrating our country to turn it into a clone of their own” theory.
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Nicely done Ryan.
Vote:Unfortunately for you your inversion of the story says more about you than the facts.
Something does smell wrong you just have blocked your nose.
July 7th, 2011 at 10:28 am
Pete George (10,360) Says:
Vote:July 6th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
no Pete George the guts of humanity are to the right of you!
July 7th, 2011 at 10:33 am
reid “Why is everyone so very scared of Islam?”
A good point… Islam will adapt to the 21st Century. Mobile phones and the internet will ultimately be the vehicles for modernisation of Islam. The speed of change is the only thing able to be influenced, the change itself is inevitable.
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 10:52 am
I almost gave up waiting for this! Precisely my point. See how pointless making utterly unfalsifiable claims about another person’s secret motives are?
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 11:01 am
Oh Ryan, you can’t expect the islamofacists secretly infiltrating New Zealand to give themselves away. They may look like us, under their medieval robes, and they may appear to share our aspirations for peace and prosperity, but how can we be sure that they are not potential terrorists, or that their children won’t become radicalised jihadists?
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 11:57 am
In New Zealand we are fortunate enough to enjoy freedoms and liberties not available in other countries. Immigrants to New Zealand come here for a variety of reasons, to start a new life, to escape tyranny and persecution or to grow and develope in a country that is peaceful and free of the threat of war.
Vote:New Zealand is a tolerant country, all nationalities and religious groups are resident here, and we all co exist with a degree of mutual respect and co operation not found elsewhere.
In respect of the women who were discriminated against because of their hijab, that is truly regretable , through this experience a better understanding of our quite different world views will emerge and hopefully in time New Zealanders will become more aware of this custom.
But the key element for all stakeholders in this debate is tolerance and mutual respect and that is the goal we should all be working together to achieve.
July 7th, 2011 at 11:57 am
I see some Christian group has won their request for skimpy outfits to be banned at a swimming pool for next Easter.
I’m sure you’ll agree that it’s good to see religious beliefs re-gaining some of the ground they lost in the 1960′s and 70′s. Pat Bartlett must be looking down from heaven with approval.
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
Muslims in Britain as well as demanding sharia law are also demanding that the UK be divided into three islamic states.
Vote:PG. You must be one of the most naive people ever created. There is no point in anyone entering into any discussion with you on this topic. You have a truly astounding ability to ignore facts. Dream on.
July 7th, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Yeah, and if Chamberlain was still PM that’s what would happen.
Here’s some facts:
UK has about 2.9m Muslims, about 5% of the population.
NZ has about 40k Muslims, about 1% of the population.
Joanna, what facts do you have on specific problems in New Zealand?
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
I’d be interested in a reference to the demand for three islamic states.
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 2:39 pm
re: mikenmild
British Muslims Call for Three Independent Muslim States . . . in the UK
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011433/Islamic-extremists-set-independent-states-UK-fall-Shariah-law.html
Re: the question of terrorists exploiting the burqa as a disguise.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/06/terrorists-in-drag-bombs-beneath-the-burqa/
UK has about 2.9m Muslims, about 5% of the population.
NZ has about 40k Muslims, about 1% of the population.
The UK at one time had a 1% Muslim population. It’s only 5% in the UK and they are openly seditious…
Vote:July 7th, 2011 at 4:40 pm
I would like to end this thread with the following:
Burqa? I barely even know ‘er!
(You’re welcome.)
Vote: