The offensive Glenn Beck
July 27th, 2011 at 9:00 am by David FarrarReuters reports:
Norwegians have hit back at former Fox News presenter and Tea Party darling Glenn Beck, after he compared the country’s shooting victims to the Hitler Youth in a radio show overnight.
In a monologue on the syndicated radio show The Glenn Beck Program, the conservative commentator said: “There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler Youth or whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics? Disturbing.”
That really is an incredibly offensive and stupid thing to say. The poor participants at the Young Labour camp got butchered over 90 minutes, and Beck thinks they are the ones to be compared to Hitler Youth. Their killer is in fact a much better fix.
Thanks goodness he is no longer on Fox News.
July 27th, 2011 at 9:06 am
I’m sure you mean “Their killer is in fact a much better fit” (for a Nazi comparison).
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:09 am
krazykiwi might have something to say about this.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:17 am
It’s Glenn Beck’s job to play on right-wing paranoia about left-wing agendas. It is what he gets paid for.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:18 am
Rather than rely on Reuters report go and have a look at what he actually said.
Yes the timing was (very) off but the substance was correct.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:18 am
Glen Beck may champion free speech, but he is a poor advertisement for it!
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:19 am
I don’t get it. Ok, Godwin’s law is a total non sequitur, but if everyone thinks it is a valid argument, why go there?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:19 am
BTW have we had a name for the missing Kiwi? Or better yet a report that she is safe and well??
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:20 am
Why do we care what Glen Back might say on any subject?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:26 am
Beck, an extreme christian who like too many on here rants on about Muslims.
Vote:Reading through his rantings it seems he was in favour of those poor kids being slaughtered.
Still the Christian apologists will be out shortly to defend him.
July 27th, 2011 at 9:28 am
Is it true that, not only was it a camp for political indoctrination, but its main feature was instruction on boycotting Israel and assisting the Gazza flotilla?
Just askin’ youse all, in the interests of balance.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:32 am
Adolf, rather than insinuate you should provide evidence for accusations like that.
Just askin’, in the interests of being honest about your intentions.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:40 am
‘Thank goodness he is no longer on Fox News’
Ha ha ha. Fox News is now much more balanced and reputable!
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:42 am
Fuck it.
Why dosnt someone go post all the left wing terrorist attacks over last century and this then be done with it.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:45 am
Banana
Which would be relevant how?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:47 am
You can’t push Alcohol and Tobacco on under 18s so why are political parties allowed to push politics onto kids?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:47 am
Absolutely. Indoctrinating young people with a political ideology is deeply wrong (http://teapartystudents.org/), while the very IDEA of holding a camp for young people involved in a political movement is Naziism to the core (http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2011/07/lessons_in_tyranny_in_europe_s.html).
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:50 am
High Horse, long fall.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:53 am
The disturbing thing about this incident is that I find out Jacinda Adern has spent her whole life in student politics and and now thinks she is capable of running a country
Vote:Who would have thought!
July 27th, 2011 at 9:54 am
“You can’t push Alcohol and Tobacco on under 18s so why are political parties allowed to push politics onto kids?”
Yikes, I thought involvement in politics was something that should be encouraged for citizens in a democracy (doesn’t the ‘demo’ bit mean ‘people’?). If you consider politics to be comparable to substances that mess up people’s minds and bodies, what are you doing commenting here on a political blog?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 9:58 am
Glen Beck is a dick, always has been. the left has dicks like that parodiod druged out failed hippie Keith locke and that violent anti-Semite John Minto. the right has Glen The Tool Beck.
Idiocy knows no political polarity.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:01 am
“You can’t push Alcohol and Tobacco on under 18s so why are political parties allowed to push politics onto kids?”
Left wing and liberal politics is already pushed to children at schools.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:02 am
AG
I noted yesterday that ideological camps are not unknown in NZ. Think boy scouts, boys’ brigade, youth for christ, etc.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:02 am
Hey AG what have you got to say about the Obama Youth Brigade?
Shit you only open your mouth to change feet don’t you. Dickless commie fucktard.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:11 am
http://younglabour.org.nz/
Don’t forget these guys!
Now lets stop being partisan and agree that Glenn Beck is behaving like a dick shall we?
Godwins law ect.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:13 am
For some time I have thought Beck is a complete cock, a religious nut bar and the very worst example of the gun loving religious extremist element of the American right.
However, leaving aside the timing of his comments (and the reference to Hitler) he has a point about these political camps.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Obama Youth Brigade:
Vote:
July 27th, 2011 at 10:22 am
redeye
If you could pointed me to one comment I have made in support of the tea party then your weak attempt at trolling might have had some merit.
Once again you have failed.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:22 am
@big bruv
“However, leaving aside the timing of his comments (and the reference to Hitler) he has a point about these political camps.”
No he hasn’t.
It is offensive and there is no comparisson.
The problem is the hypocrasy of the “the other side”. They have been using this tactic (Calling every “conservative” Hitler or Nazis) for a long time without any rebute and are cheered on by the LSM.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:30 am
“If you consider politics to be comparable to substances that mess up people’s minds and bodies, what are you doing commenting here on a political blog?”
Addiction maybe?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:37 am
other andy
“No he hasn’t”
You find the idea of youth being gathered together on an island for the purposes of political indoctrination perfectly normal do you?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:39 am
As abhorrent as these killing were- I do find it a bit strange that the media won’t go into what this ‘camp’ was all about….who the hell were these people? And what has the very weird Jacinda Adern got to do with them??
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:41 am
It seems to have been normal Bruv, they’ve been doing it for 60 years and is considered normal in Norway.
It’s also considered normal (in democracies) to have a freedom to associate.
It’s not my idea of going camping but each to their own.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:42 am
It’s about as suspicious as any other youth camp. Give us a break. I understood from the TV News that Jacina Ardern had spent some time in Norway and met a number of the people in this youth group.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:47 am
@big Bruv
“You find the idea of youth being gathered together on an island for the purposes of political indoctrination perfectly normal do you?”
No I don’t, not my cup of tea.
However, comparing them with the Hitler Jugend is beyond the pale.
Vote:Just because the left calls everybody to the right of Castro a Nazi doesn’t mean we have to resort to the same juvenile behaviour.
July 27th, 2011 at 11:00 am
I’d have thought that Glen Beck’s tasteless comments would have struck resonance with the likes of joana, but his shameless demagoguery appears to have unearthed a rich seam of wider paranoia, judging by some of the above posts. Any youth camp run by a particular organisation is going to exert influence on the participants. Only total coercive immersion amounts to cultism or brainwashing in my opinion. Tell you what I find a bit spooky though; bowing heads and saying in unison:
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
Vote:the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary, bla bla bla…….
July 27th, 2011 at 11:02 am
Murray,
“Hey AG what have you got to say about the Obama Youth Brigade?
Shit you only open your mouth to change feet don’t you. Dickless commie fucktard.”
My, what dirty fingers you have, Muzz!
If Obama came out and compared the Norwegian camp to a HJ event, you’d have a point. But he didn’t. So you don’t.
MY point was to emphasise Beck’s hypocrisy, as well as his complete lack of human feeling, not to say “youth politics is bad”. (You understand the concept of sarcasm, no?) Personally, I wish there were more kids interested in the world and how it works!
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:03 am
“I do find it a bit strange that the media won’t go into what this ‘camp’ was all about….who the hell were these people?”
Er… it was a camp for the youth wing of the Norweigan Labour Party, as the media has said many, many times. You know, something like happens all over the world in most political parties or movements of any size – Young Nats, Labour Youth, whatever the green youth wing’s called, ACT on Campus or whatever they are/were called…
But it’s a free world – don’t let me stop you looking for an evil criminal conspiracy in every gathering and a microphone under every potted plant.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:06 am
Did anyone else see the Labour Party hold a memorial on the steps of parliament for the victims last night and think it was in rather bad taste that they were making this a party political issue, why didn’t they invite MPs from other parties?
Vote:Jacinda Ardern said something like, ‘these people thought like us’
So you wouldn’t of cared as much if they were from the right?
Not on par with Glenn Beck comments, mind you.
July 27th, 2011 at 11:15 am
“You know, something like happens all over the world in most political parties or movements of any size ”
Really??
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:15 am
Scott Chris
Regardless of the religion (or the political group) the believers of their own particular brand of crap will insist that it is the way & the light. To them they are not indoctrinating kids but saving their souls.
Cynics like me see an enlarged tithing base & a well brainwashed pack of zombies but it is hard to get traction on this issue amongst the believers.
It all gets back to “give me the child & I’ll show you the man”.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:16 am
@SC
Funny you pick that one.
Vote:I could pick some ‘spookier’ ones.
http://i38.tinypic.com/2vtsj7s.jpg
http://www.iranian.com/main/files/blogimages/HezbollahNaziSalute-2.jpg
July 27th, 2011 at 11:21 am
emmess – some of the lefties/Labouries have taken on the tragedy as their own, and have felt it was an attack on them as much as on Norway. Some (micky/Greg in particular) have been very agitated by anyone (me) who’s commented on the tragedy as if it’s none of my business because I’m not a died in the wool red brother. Weird.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:25 am
…
…
…
Jesus christ people, you lot are paranoiacs. It was a meeting of the youth wing of the Labour Party. The attendees were high-school-/university-age members of the Party, not 10-year-olds. They elected to go, they weren’t sent there (though I believe some attendees who had children brought them, presumably because of the intended length of the camp, to prevent children spending too long away from their parents). They planned to talk about, among other things, how they could influence the direction of the Party; the Party wasn’t going to influence them.
The Young Nats have a three-day AGM next month. Does that mean the National Party is “indoctrinating” children? Young Labour run a very similar “summer school” right here in New Zealand.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:26 am
It’s not just the Young Labour, it’s Angry Birds:
Vote:http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/221427/glenn-beck-compares-angry-birds-to-nazi-germany-pigs-to-socialists/
July 27th, 2011 at 11:28 am
@Other_Andy
Good point, though I was attempting to show up Beck’s (and others) hypocrisy.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:29 am
It’s not strange that Labour here have reacted to this tragedy. The NZ Labour Party is a member of the Socialist International along with the Norwegian Labour Party. It seems that quite a few NZ Labour politicians have links with western european social democtratic parties.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Yes
For the paranoid among us the only safe thing to do is BAN all youth gatherings.
Who knows what they are being indoctrinated with?
Those wicked conspiring Girl Guides clearly are planning something pretty rotten. The Scouts ARE the fifth column and someone please save us from the Christian youth festivals.
You see there is lots to be afraid of.
McCarthy lives
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:30 am
I mean, who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics? Disturbing.”
The TEA PARTY.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:32 am
Do they RKBee? I’m a bit lazy to research this today, would you mind providing the proof?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:36 am
glenn beck often over analyses and makes a dick of himself.
His comments regarding hitler youth were stupid.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:38 am
By way of clarification on the camps it is something we have adopted from the Norweigan model for Young Labour here also.
The Youth wings of the political party (in NZ this is every member between 15 and 25 automatically becomes a member of Young Labour) organise a retreat away somewhere in the country. At this we arrange speakers or panels to do sessions about an hour long about something that have expertise in followed by questions. There are also sometimes workshops of specific things like we might do a session about what we think the values of the Labour Party are etc. You do 4-5 of these sessions in a day and then have social events in the evening. Usually they are just for a weekend with only a day and a half of actual sessions within them. It is a fairly standard model and commonly used across the world. For a summer camp you get sort of 5-10 people from each branch around the country going here.
We picked up the summer camp idea from countries like Norway at the IUSY conference which is currently on right now where leftwing youth members from around the world gather to share their ideas and experiences so that we better understand each other and can build stronger links with each other. For IUSY we send just a couple of delegates as a country to bring back their experiences to us.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:42 am
Yawn. http://www.meetup.com/tampa912/events/22130491/
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:45 am
Yawn indeed that’s not a camp what else have you got
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:47 am
Yawn indeed
“Tampa Liberty School – a summer camp for kids aged 8-12 years old”
Kids aged 8-12 years old will have fun while learning the principles of liberty, free markets, and limited government. They will also learn the values of personal responsibility, faith, courage, hard work, reverence and thrift.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:48 am
Indoctrination?. The fundie Becky Fischer’s Jesus Camps or the chilling Battle Cry ministry of Ron Luce fit the bill.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:50 am
A camp that runs only in the morning? Desperate to find something are you redeye?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:51 am
big bruv (9,217) Says:
July 27th, 2011 at 10:37 am
other andy
“No he hasn’t”
You find the idea of youth being gathered together on an island for the purposes of political indoctrination perfectly normal do you?
don’t forget the sex, will you.
Vote:I saw it mentioned somewhere in the lalst day or so.
July 27th, 2011 at 11:52 am
Glenn Beck owes the families of the deceased an apology for casting an aspersion that is both insulting and incorrect. If I was a parent of one of the victims I would take deep offence at his remarks and would have to be restrained from taking physical action against him.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:55 am
It’s not strange that Labour here have reacted to this tragedy.
No, that’s not strange, what is strange is how some seem to think they have exlusive rights to feel anything about it. In my house the TV coverage was very emotional and moving, on a non-political level. It was bloody awful from just about any angle.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 11:56 am
RightNow
Or this:
Vote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/8582654/Tea-Party-summer-camps-for-8-year-olds-to-learn-about-defending-economic-liberty.html
July 27th, 2011 at 11:59 am
So it’s ok as long as it doesn’t go into the afternoon?
Principal is the same no matter which way you skin it.
8 Year olds being indoctrinated.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
@KevinH
“….and would have to be restrained from taking physical action against him.”
Excuse me?
Vote:‘physical action’?
As in violence?
July 27th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
Ah, the irony of indoctrination into individualism.
Still another example: Children will blow bubbles from a single container of soapy solution, and then pop each other’s bubbles with squirt guns in an arrangement that mimics socialism. They are to count how many bubbles they pop. Then they will work with individual bottles of solution and pop their own bubbles.
“What they will find out is that you can do a lot more with individual freedom,” Lukens said.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
robcarr (98) Says:
July 27th, 2011 at 11:38 am
I hope that isn’t where Darren goes for his holidays?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:21 pm
“8 Year olds being indoctrinated.” so since the principal is the same (as you say redeye), you’re also saying the purpose of the Young Labour camp was for indoctrination?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
redeye,
I think I see Rightnow’s ploy. You’ll provide evidence, and he/she’ll say “what – a gathering not in tents? That’s not a camp!”; or “what – a gathering where they don’t toast marshmallows over a fire? That’s not a camp!” Define the word “camp” narrowly enough, and her/his point remains intact … the Tea Party do not have indoctrination camps for kids like those nasty Norwegian socialists!
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
I don’t particularly approve of Beck’s approach, but I do think you should listen to what he actually said. Once again the media have taken a sound bite and jumped on it. Too lazy to do any work themselves. The tragedy in Norway cannot be condoned in any way, but neither should there be political point scoring. Jacinda Ahern is a real worry, such a self righteous know all.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
I have no idea of the purpose of Young Labour camp. The Beck (and Bruv) inference was the purpose was indoctrination which is a bit rich considering my link.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Murray
Is it true that, not only was it a camp for political indoctrination, but its main feature was instruction on boycotting Israel and assisting the Gazza flotilla?
Good point,
Vote:As the Norwegians have financed terrorism against Israel for decades (and all of it’s population) covertly by giving them humanitarian aid to free up funds for explosives and ammunition I’m not surprised at that at all.
July 27th, 2011 at 12:28 pm
AG, even though it said on the website in redeye’s link that it was a ‘camp’, the disparity between the Young Labour camp and this ‘camp’ is large. However, I’m prepared to overlook it if we’re accepting that the Young Labour camp is indeed ‘indoctrination’. Is that a suitable compromise for you?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
Beck, an extreme christian who like too many on here rants on about Muslims.
Reading through his rantings it seems he was in favour of those poor kids being slaughtered.
Still the Christian apologists will be out shortly to defend him.
Glen Beck is not an “extreme christian”, he is a Mormon. And he is absolutely nuts. I can’t believe he was not only able to secure a television show, a television show where he does nothing but talk for a whole hour and wave maniacally at blackboards, but that at one time it was the most popular current affairs television show in the English-speaking world. He is an utter embarrassment. It’s almost like he’s a stealth leftist invented with the sole purpose of discrediting right wingers.
The comment is mild, however – it seems like misplaced flippancy at worst, talking about the idea of political camps themselves, not a comparison of the victims to Nazis. But it betrays his disturbed thought patterns and his ability to just let dumb stuff fall out of his mouth without thinking things through.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
‘financed terrorism…covertly by giving them humanitarian aid.’ Really?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Blair
I thought Mormons were Christians.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
RightNow,
You are right. The YL camp was for high-school and University aged persons. The Tea Party one was for 8 year olds. That is a large disparity and one that it is very important to emphasise.
“Indoctrination” is simply education about something we don’t like … so yes, you have my permission to describe the Young Labour camp howsoever you choose.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
AG Says:
“I think I see Rightnow’s ploy. You’ll provide evidence, and he/she’ll say “what – a gathering not in tents? That’s not a camp!”; or “what – a gathering where they don’t toast marshmallows over a fire? That’s not a camp!” Define the word “camp” narrowly enough, and her/his point remains intact …”
Hilarious…..
Vote:Pot meets kettle.
July 27th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
I think we have a clear example of Sir Humphrey Appleby’s “irregular verbs” here: my children are sharing experiences, your children are being taught dangerous ideas, and their children are being indoctrinated.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
“As the Norwegians have financed terrorism against Israel for decades (and all of it’s population) covertly by giving them humanitarian aid to free up funds for explosives and ammunition I’m not surprised at that at all.”
Yeah – those fucking terrorist loving Norwegians and their support for the destruction of Israel! Oh wait, what’s that?
“Since the establishment of limited Palestinian self-rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the mid-1990s, the U.S. government has committed over $4 billion in bilateral assistance to the Palestinians, who are among the world’s largest per capita recipients of international foreign aid.”
Vote:http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf
July 27th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
“Hilarious…..
Pot meets kettle.”
Well, we ARE in a kitchen, O_A, so what do you expect? Or is this a reference to the schooling you got yesterday, when you ran away when asked to state your argument?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
AG
Not to mention the Norwegians trying very hard to help peace in the Middle East through the Oslo Accords – maybe that was a ruse as well.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
Mikenmild
Help peace, Oh yeah the impartial peace makers of Norway is it?
They knowingly finance terrorism against all of Israels population by giving humanitarian aid to Hamas and the PA so freeing up monies for Bombs and Bullets.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
Mick
And that’s the same for the US’s $4 billion too?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
Mikenmild
DUH!
fail!
No Mormons are not Christians in the orthodox sense AT ALL.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 12:58 pm
“As the Norwegians have financed terrorism against Israel for decades (and all of it’s population) covertly by giving them humanitarian aid to free up funds for explosives and ammunition…”
Yikes again. I bought some Chinese-made noodles the other day – I guess this means I’m responsible for financing China’s nuclear weapons programme, the oppression of Uighers and state terrorism against the Tibetans. Somebody call a cop – I must be stopped!
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
I’m not a Mormon, but it seems they revere Jesus Christ as the son of God and saviour, so doesn’t that make them Christians?
It’s true they’re not Orthodox Christians… but then neither are Catholics or Baptists.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
Mick
So when the Mormons describe themselves as the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter-Day Saints, are they referring to some other Jesus Christ?
But did you mean ‘orthodox Christians’? Hard to define that, so I’ll stick to a more general definition of Christian – a believer in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
@AG
Nah.
Whatever makes you happy AG.
I decided I got better things to do with my time than trying to argue with fruitloops.
And for the record, I was talking ABOUT you, not TO you.
Vote:Believe it or not, not everybody is interested in your opinion
July 27th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
AG
Don’t feel the loss too badly.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
Miken, I think he means a member of the Orthodox Church.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Sam
Vote:you are a Twat.
you buying noodles a packet as an individual is not the same as a government with all their available intelligence sharing, giving millions of taxpayers money to organisations that terrorise their population , misappropriate monies intended for their citizens and finance and aid terrorists to send bombs bullets and rockets against other populaces.
But then you know that don’t you.
July 27th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Mick
So what is the difference between Norwegian, US or New Zealand aid to the Palestinians?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
Most Christians would say yes.
Their concern with Jesus is that he was God born as a man. Mormons do not believe that.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Yeah, and not just them Norwegians, them Jews are doing it too.
Since the end of the IDF operation in Gaza (18 Jan 2009) until 5 June 2010, 1,025,686 tons of aid, 49,610 tons of cooking gas and 136,097,330 liters of fuel have been delivered to the Gaza Strip.
Food and supplies are shipped from Israel to Gaza six days a week. These items were channeled through aid organizations or via Gaza’s private sector.
Large quantities of essential food items like baby formula, wheat, meat, dairy products and other perishables are transferred daily and weekly to Gaza. Fertilizers that cannot be used to make explosives are shipped into the Strip regularly, as are potato seeds, eggs for reproduction, bees, and equipment for the flower industry.
In 2009 alone, more than 738,000 tons of food and supplies entered Gaza. Pictures in local newspapers show local markets aplenty with fruit, vegetables, cheese, spices, bread and meat to feed 1.4 million Gazans.
In the first quarter of 2010 (January-March), 94,500 tons of supplies were transferred in 3,676 trucks to the Strip: 48,000 tons of food products; 40,000 tons of wheat; 2,760 tons of rice; 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear; 553 tons of milk powder and baby food.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
All humanitarian aid to Palestine is amoral, even if it bypasses the Palestinian Authority, even if it is directed at groups that have officially recognised Israel and disclaimed terrorism.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Daigotsu,
“All humanitarian aid to Palestine is amoral”
I can live with that. But I suspect it isn’t what you meant to say at all …
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Mikenmild
Are you a Mormon?
Please be clear here as the Mormons are not Christian in the orthodox sense, in fact their beliefs are very not Christian
They are not believers in the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I’ve got to work so don’t have the time to lay it out for you, all of these highlight many items where they are in variance with orthodox Christianity.
They are a cult.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html
Vote:http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/mormons_what_they_teach.htm
http://www.realmormonhistory.com/
http://www.mmoutreach.org/mormon/articles/facts_mormon_wont_tell.htm
July 27th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Daigotsu said:
“All humanitarian aid to Palestine is amoral, even if it bypasses the Palestinian Authority, even if it is directed at groups that have officially recognised Israel and disclaimed terrorism.”
Are you a school teacher? I can’t think of any other mindset that would actively endorse collective punishment.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Comedy gold from a clown displaying a WND address in his handle.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
Yeah anyone who give monies to known terrorists knowing that it will free up monies for terrorism is guilty.
The issue is if you give funds to someone which they use for terrorism you are as guilty of that as they are.
When you say it is for peace and don’t hold them to account you are in a pretend agreement or a liar which is not healthy.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Cha
Vote:did you read the page?
No thought not.
July 27th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Mick
No, I’m not a Mormon. They are no more a cult than many other Christian sects.
So even Israelis themselves are supporting terrorism by shipping aid to Gaza? And I never realised. Thank you.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
#100
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
“you are a Twat.”
Are you an adult?
“Yeah anyone who give monies to known terrorists knowing that it will free up monies for terrorism is guilty.”
So how come me buying goods made in China – which allows the Chinese government to terrorise their population is OK? I may lack the intelligence gathering abilities of a government, but I’m by no means ignorant of their policies and practices.
It just seems rather silly to attack money going somewhere on the grounds that will allow an organisation to use other money to fund reprehensible activities. If this is the case, we are all guilty.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 2:02 pm
Mick Mac,
You do realise the GST you are paying on the power to run your computer helps to fund NZ’s foreign aid to Palestine, don’t you? Only one solution – turn it off at the power socket. Do it quick, before you buy another katyusha rocket for the evil ones!
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Mick Mac, NZ born or a overstaying visitor ?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Ag
I do realise and emailed both Goof when he was foreign minister with der Fuhrer and to Murray “throw me a ball” with Shonkey to object to our taxpayers money being used like that.
In fact you are clearly suffering a senior moment as this is not the first time in this forum I’ve said the same.
I object to our taxpayers money being used to assist terrorists, whomever they are.
Mikenmild – sorry about the spelling mistake in my question to you.
Sam – yes and you are a twat. as you clearly show with your puerile equivalences.
Again if an organisation (supposedly accountable to others for their money it is giving away) gives OPM to known terrorists knowing that their monies free up other monies to be used for terrorism then they shouldn’t and it’s wrong.
Hori – better than that.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 3:17 pm
Mick Mac
You seem to be dodging the question posed by cha above. Even the Israelis themselves give humanitarian aid to the Palestinians.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 3:21 pm
Oh – so you wrote an email (for which you used power and so helped fill the state coffers) did you? An email, no less!! Well, your conscience certainly is clear, then. Yessiree bob, no blood on your typing fingers!
And I like how you make up cute little names for our politicians. It’s just like my 3-year old would do (if she wasn’t so fixated on Thomas the Tank Engine, of course).
Now – what about Sam’s (edit: cha’s) point regarding Israel itself. Is Israel complicit in the terrorist attacks on Israel by providing food aid, etc to the occupied territories? Note that if your answer is yes, then you look like a bit of a dick. If your answer is no, then how is NZ/Norway/the USA different?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
“Sam – yes and you are a twat. as you clearly show with your puerile equivalences.”
OK – I was just checking. I’d have thought an adult would have better things to do than write abuse from behind a pseudonym – it’s a bit like making prank phone calls isn’t it? Or is there something to be gained from doing so that I can’t think of?
So, is it that you don’t consider the Chinese government to be terrorist, or that you think people buying the country’s products is different to giving humanitarian aid?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Cha, Mikenmild, AG, Sam.
Yeah that’s right Israel is encouraging the terrorist attacks on herself by dealing with the terrorists.
Because she is humanitarian she gets abused by the terrorists and the media,UN,EU Nordic countries, and than the do gooders and twats like you if she stops any dealing with the terrorists..
But we don’t have to aid and abet them.
If the rest of the world stopped the aid then they would have to live like a good neighbours and that means look after their own people before attacking Israel.
Similarly by giving aid knowingly we aid and abet them to not grow up and act like a responsible nation (as well as commit terror).
Just like the benefit here stops some people from having to live with consequences so does our aid to terrorists do the same.
China – remind me which countries she is terrorising right now and what aid we give to her?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
Emmess et al: I know I am ragingly late for this particular debate on the memorial etc.
However! I saw the memoral from my office and thought it was odd, though I couldn’t tell who it was, i just saw people with red balloons. My initial thought was that it was Labour doing a stunt with ‘own our future’ balloons or some such.
When I saw on twitter that it was a Norway thing, I was rather offended that Labour had run a memorial for ‘their’ comrades in the Norwegian Labour Party, and not included any other MPs/parties or people who may have wanted to join in; it was as if other parties and non-labour people were not considered ‘worthy’ and ‘one of us’. I am a righty and I would have joined in with it, as it is sad to have kids murdered simply because they were Labour supporters.
On Jacinda Ardern, she was president of Socialist Internatonale (scary socialism behind the moderate public image!!) in 2008 and doesn’t appear to have a successor, who knows what happened to them after 2008 lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Union_of_Socialist_Youth#IUSY_presidents
I imagine she would have been quite familiar with some of the victims, as the Norwegian Labour party is probably the biggest Labour party in europe, thus she would have had quite a bit to do with their youth members. My condolences to Jacinda as it musn’t be easy losing friends in that way.
Glenn Beck, what a knob end he is. he is so far right he makes Hitler look reasonable. he gives us a bad name when the lefties tar us all with the same racism brush.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
Sorry but the edit beat me!
Vote:there is nothing wrong with having ‘youth’ arms of political parties. They certainly aren’t marching around in uniform lines with flags a la Hitler Youth; Pope Benedict was however. many people I know were young Labour members because they chose to join up (much to their parents horror, which was pretty funny), as much as I consider their opinions to be wrong, it doesn’t mean they were indoctrinated!
In case anyone wants to know, I never joined Young Nats as I considered them (and still do) to be too conservative for my liking, and also rather gimpy. they always seem to be the people who lack a few social skills and any fashion sense at all, which indicates to me as a 23 year old male that they don’t get out much to talk to other people and consider other opinions.
July 27th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
“China – remind me which countries she is terrorising right now and what aid we give to her?”
The Chinese government terrorises China, East Turkestan and Tibet. Arguably other countries.
This is from the MFAT site: “While New Zealand no longer has a core bilateral aid programme with China some smaller poverty alleviation activities, collectively amounting to NZ$500,000 per annum, continue to be carried out under the Development Project Fund in seven rural Western provinces and autonomous regions (Tibet, Sichuan, Guizhou, Gansu, Yunnan, Guangxi and Xinjiang). There is also a small grant scheme of NZ$80,000 per annum administered by the New Zealand Embassy in Beijing. In addition, we are supporting two scholarship programmes (10 New Zealand China Doctoral Research awards and two Food Safety Awards – soon to be completed) as part of the New Zealand China FTA Agreement.”
There’s also enhanced temporary entry provisions for Chinese workers under the FTA.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
No, I’m not a Mormon. They are no more a cult than many other Christian sects.
Their history is very much cult-like. Like the JW’s they have now moved to a more mainstream appearance since the founders are dead. But they are most certainly not Christians, they deny that themselves (just to confuse things they claim both ways).
In the first few hundred years of Christianity, many divergent ideas were considered and checked against the Apostles teaching. From those debates we have creeds such as the Nicene creed (mocked above!) which are as much about saying what Christianity *is* as what it *isn’t*. The beliefs of Mormonism fall outside of orthodox christianity (that’s little O orthodox) in ways that Catholicism, baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans etc do not.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
But as for the main issue – I am not someone who identifies as a Beck fan, but having heard the entire quote, it makes sense. Offensive, probably but I would join him in being a bit creaped out by a camp based on politics – of any stripe.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 6:41 pm
The only problem was the tasteless timing, I don’t doubt that this “young labour” camp is barely distinguishable from the Hitler Youth. As Hitler said
“When an opponent declares, ‘I will not come over to your side,’ I say calmly, ‘Your child belongs to us already. What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing but this new community’ .”
Sounds pretty much like the socialist dream for education
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
I don’t doubt that this “young labour” camp is barely distinguishable from the Hitler Youth
That’s worse than tasteless too, and just as ignorant.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 8:16 pm
Right pete, because leftists have such a sterling reputation for running camps don’t they? Stalin, anyone?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 8:37 pm
scrubone/put it away
It most certainly is an offensive statement. There are plenty of youth groups around the world – probably most of them inculcate some religious, political or cultural beliefs. If you condemn one, you can condemn them all, including the Scouts and Youth for Christ. None of them, hoiwever, seem to me to come close to the Hitler Youth – compulsory for Aryan youth and in service of a hateful ideology and regime.
And if you really want to equate a Norwegian Labour Party youth camp with the Gulag…
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 8:51 pm
You go on about how dangerous it is to send 8 year olds to a “liberty camp” in the US and yet you don’t bat an eyelid to the fact that we all send our kids every single day to schools that are staffed by members of the PPTA.
Just sayin..
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 8:57 pm
Clint
I have nothing against the ‘liberty camp’. US parents are free to send their children wherever. It’s a bit of a long bow to compare that to union memberships by NZ teachers.
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:06 pm
Remember – this is what Zionist Breivik saw on TV2 the night before the carnage;
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpolitisk.tv2.no%2Fnyheter%2Fst%25C3%25B8re-om-israel-palestina-konflikten-%25E2%2580%2593-okkupasjonen-ma-opph%25C3%25B8re-muren-ma-rives-og-det-ma-skje-na%2F
http://politisk.tv2.no/nyheter/st%C3%B8re-om-israel-palestina-konflikten-%E2%80%93-okkupasjonen-ma-opph%C3%B8re-muren-ma-rives-og-det-ma-skje-na/
Maybe Zionist Beck saw this too?
Vote:July 27th, 2011 at 10:33 pm
“Put it away”
Vote:Yep – just like those Israeli children that will inevitably become IDF – by sustained democratic mandate – of course!
July 27th, 2011 at 11:19 pm
You know to an Atheist Christians Islamist and the Jews all have the same God there is very little between them. They live in a big box marked religion along with six armed woman Thor and Maui and all the rest of the mumbo jumbo
Vote:That these three have terrorized each other for 2000 years is pretty fascinating (sorry to pedantic Islamist have been around for less)
July 27th, 2011 at 11:58 pm
Griff: That these three have terrorized each other for 2000 years is pretty fascinating
Pretty silly as well, Griff, don’t you think? All done under the guidance of religious leaders or atheists, who profess to promulgate love of the common people but in truth are usually to be found wanting, as they need to ‘control’ their flocks or their people, and the need to control denotes fear.
What I find really sad about this debate is the inability of so many to distinguish between belief in for example the events of 2000 years ago and a strict religious interpretation of what was said by Jesus. The text of the Bible has been changed so many times – for example, all references to reincarnation were removed at a big conference in Constantinople in about 500AD.
What I’m getting at is the difference between being spiritual and being religious. Atheists and those who follow religions: both have this problem. Glenn Beck is just another who believes that one religion is *the* one, another isn’t, but he is very creepy. There’s no love involved in his rantings – all he does on screen is promote fear. As did Breivik – but his actions ended up being very direct. The following of more or less any religion has fear in it. “I must follow *this* set of beliefs, otherwise – who knows what might happen to me!?”
Peace, good people.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 12:21 am
Griff / SpiritFree
Vote:Agree
But let us focus on what We can do right now to make it better.
Let us hope that our own “Murray” is not intimidated by such cellular activation – and may see the Justice in the recognition of a free Palestinian state.
Else we need a new Murray.
July 28th, 2011 at 2:26 am
@Spiritfree
@valeriusterminus
I am glad U see my point
A just and fair out come is not solely derivable from the spiritual world I get that from applying humanistic principle
IT still is just and fair
The Palestinians have been manipulated by there own to prove a point not to make their lives better
Israel knows a sign a weakness will bring the wolves down
no one wins and the misery goes on
only one real commandment do unto others as U would have them do on to you
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 3:14 am
Mikenmild.
Not at all. Lefties were smugly stating that Tea Party type camps and events was indoctrination but yet we send our kids to schools staffed by teachers who conform to the values of the PPTA – who are Labour types and not afraid to use their influence to indoctrinate our kids.
The PPTA and teachers unions strongly believe in union values that oppose anything remotely right wing. And they fuel the fire within the kids that they teach. I’ve seen it first hand and have been subjected to it as a student in primary and high school.
Now that is not to say that I find Tea Party camps justifiable, as I don’t. Kids should be kids. Having a union branch or a political parrty branch at a High School is ridiculous – and yet Labour, Greens etc all have tried in earnest to set up branches in schools to recruit them at an early age and take advantage of their youth.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 7:21 am
Clint
You talk about the PPTA as if it were some external force imposing an ideology. Had you considered that it might be a voluntary association controlled by its members to promote the interests of the teaching profession?
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 8:21 am
As others have stated Glenn Beck is not a Christian, he is a Mormon. The Mormons while having the Bible also have the book of Mormon which comes from the teachings of Joseph Smith. Smith was apparently visited by an Angel who dictated the book to him and if memory serves me correctly it was written down on gold tablets in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. So Mormons are most certainly not Christians. They do what the Bible, right in the last verses tells us not to do, they add to the Bible.
Lumping all religions together, as some atheists are doing on this thread, is if I might say so — pretty ignorant.
And believing that believing in nothing i.e. atheism, solves all problems is incredibly naive. However if one doubts me check it out. You might want to try a country ruled by Islam — Iran might interest you as a holiday destination. And regarding a country ruled by atheism — the People’s Republic of North Korea is an ideal choice that you might want to check out.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 9:11 am
@Scott (839) Says:
July 28th, 2011 at 8:21 am
“Lumping all religions together, as some atheists are doing on this thread, is if I might say so — pretty ignorant.
And believing that believing in nothing i.e. atheism, solves all problems is incredibly naive”
I would suggest that a leap of faith made on the basis of no physical evidence could be construed as naive. Also, in lumping atheists with agnostics, you too are making assumptions and generalizations. I suppose, as we are all going to hell, that we all look the same to you
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 10:01 am
As a member of the act party in the 90s and a shop steward at the same time I was involved in negotiating employment contracts with my employer they still remain one of the few companies that pay penal rates
The problem is that the left is inclined to dominate unions and push its socialist barrow at a cost to society and its own members
@Scott
Vote:I can not see your point
All of the three including immeasurable sects believe there interpretation are correct
IF 2000 sects all believe in the same ‘god’ and all other sects are wrong and will face”gods” wrath the chance of the sect you follow being right is……2000 to one pretty slim odds to hang your life on
religion is rapidly becoming obsolete just look at the numbers who worship weekly
July 28th, 2011 at 2:30 pm
“I would suggest that a leap of faith made on the basis of no physical evidence could be construed as naive. Also, in lumping atheists with agnostics, you too are making assumptions and generalizations. I suppose, as we are all going to hell, that we all look the same to you”
Thanks for your comments Chris. Christians would argue that there is plenty of physical evidence. For example the resurrection, on which all Christian doctrine hangs, was testified to by the disciples. They saw Jesus die on the cross on Friday and then for the next 40 days he appeared to them in various locations. He spoke to them and even sat down and ate with them. They were so convinced by the evidence that he was alive that they began preaching fearlessly in his name.
So I would point to the resurrection as a good example of evidence for the truth of Jesus Christ. Josh McDowell is a useful writer on the subject.
I appreciate there is a difference between agnostics and atheists. Atheists are convinced there is no God while agnostics are not quite so sure. But yes I would say that heaven and hell are real places and they are both full of volunteers.
Thanks again for your comments.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
“religion is rapidly becoming obsolete just look at the numbers who worship weekly”
Thanks for your comments Griff. Although there is certainly much dispute in the area of religion I would say there are certainly some common threads. For example doing good to others is a value that many religions would share. The golden rule — “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” — is a sentiment that leaders of many worldwide faiths would agree to.
However from a Christian point of view we would point to the absolute uniqueness of Jesus Christ as the son of God sent to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins. We would insist on the uniqueness of Jesus and the essentialness of salvation and reconciliation to God through faith in Jesus Christ.
To put it another way although all religions have some truth, we would say that Jesus Christ is the truth. That truth is found in a person — the person of Jesus. Obviously you have to make up your own mind. I would always suggest just picking up the Bible, a modern translation is good, and reading one of the gospels — Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. I have heard that many have become convinced by just doing that.
Regarding the numbers who worship weekly certainly there are less in New Zealand now than say 50 years ago. However there are many vital growing churches. If you are in the Wellington area just go to Arise church at the Michael Fowler Centre on Sunday morning. You will be surprised how many people there are, including lots of young people.
But worldwide faith in God is growing. The churches in South America, China and Africa are full and growing. The idea that we will all become secular is just not true. There are more Christians living today than there has ever been. However I accept in New Zealand there is much work to be done.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Yes, and Joseph Smith saw an angel in America, but I don’t find that to be convincing evidence of the divinty of Jesus either.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
“Christians would argue that there is plenty of physical evidence. For example the resurrection, on which all Christian doctrine hangs, was testified to by the disciples.”
By that token, of course, Maori oral history of the Taniwha beneath Auckland is rock solid evidence of its existence … just as these accounts confirm the Loch Ness monster’s undoubted presence in the depths: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lochness/eyewitness.html.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
“However from a Christian point of view we would point to the absolute uniqueness of Jesus Christ …”
So long as you don’t count Osiris, Dionysus, Attis, MIthras and many others, of course …
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 2:59 pm
AG
I wonder if there’s some form of Godwin’s Law that should apply to interent discussions descending to questions of religious belief. This thread was about Glenn Beck’s comments, then moved to whether, as a Mormon, he could be a ‘real’ Christian.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Mormonism is about as similar to (small “o”) orthodox Christianity as Christianity is similar to Judaism. One is derived from the other, and shares many beliefs with the other, but to call a Mormon a Christian is as ridiculous as calling a Christian a Jew. Mormons have completely different beliefs about Jesus and what He means to humankind.
Baptists, Pentecostals, Anglicans, Orthodox, and lay Catholics all tend to recognise each other as Christians, even while disagreeing substantially with how to practice their faith. Mormons, however, stray a bit too far from the tree for anyone’s comfort, and the theological case that they could be included within the Christian fold is weak.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Blair
So I suppose if I were to consult any references on Christianity, I wouldn’t find this church included? Very amusing, but I was actually speculating how it came to be relevant in this thread about the appalling Beck’s appalling comments.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 4:15 pm
Did you see the link to New Zealand in the Heraldhttp://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10741345
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
“I wonder if there’s some form of Godwin’s Law that should apply to interent discussions descending to questions of religious belief.”
I think it’s the inherent tendency of comment threads to reductio ad absurdum … the internet equivalent of entropy.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Griff
Yes, Keith Windschuttle, prominent in the Australian ‘history wars’. Embarassing to be quoted by a homicidal maniac, butnutters will find endorsement of their views in all sorts of otherwise innocuous sources.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 4:26 pm
mikenmild — I think we all agree that Glenn Beck’s comments, if accurately reported and in context, were at best unwise and at worst appalling. However the point was made that he is a fundamentalist Christian. And so in my desire to defend the name of Christ, I and others have pointed out that he is a Mormon and tried to show that being a Mormon is very different from being a Christian.
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 4:42 pm
I would like to see history wars here does not make me me a nutter. some times an extreme view is taken in response to a entrenched position so as to engender debate
Vote:As soon as the fact emerged that the perp in Norway was white I thought of the nutters in the USA like McVeigh Its a sad indication that extremist views are actually fermenting in the conservative christian movement witness the gay bashing on here
As to indoctrination education is the only way for society to rise above the biased the more knowledge the better the outcome
USA is captured by Christianity and it really is not pretty. We don’t have the same merging between the seculargovertment and religion
July 28th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Griff – doyou know of any good NZ blogs focused on history?
Vote:July 28th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
No I have been reading http://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/ and of coarse I have read King
Vote:July 29th, 2011 at 9:19 am
Griff — with the greatest of respect you are rambling old boy. Glenn Beck is not a Christian — he is a Mormon. Timothy McVeigh is also not a Christian.
Read this from Wikipedia — “Political views and religious beliefs
McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military.[84]
McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[85] During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly.[86] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[87] In a March, 1996, interview with Time magazine, McVeigh professed his belief in “a God”, although he said he had “sort of lost touch with” Catholicism and “I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.”[85] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[88][89] In June, 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News claiming to be an agnostic.[90] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[91]”
And I’m not sure you can blame the problems of the United States on Christians. I agree they have lots of problems and I would go on to say that they are in moral and financial decline. But that’s because they spend too much money on ever-increasing entitlements and they waste too much time watching “Jersey Shore”.
Vote:July 29th, 2011 at 9:48 am
@ scott
I did not imply that McVeigh was a Cristian just that the perp in Norway and McVeigh were similar extremists
As I have already posted to me the trinity of beliefs around the the Hebrew god are to me very similar Mormon is just Christianity with a extra profit I realize that to you in faith there is a vast difference between RC and Pentecostal
to me out side of all faith there is not
the USA has a very christian world view this view has enabled wars particularly against Muslims and the one that actually scares me more science To us the debate over the teaching of evolution is not an issue in America it is
Vote: