Riots and the youth minimum wage
August 12th, 2011 at 6:17 pm by David FarrarIn my NZ Herald column I look at the causes of the English riots and make the case for lowering the youth minimum wage to reduce teenage unemployment in NZ from 27%.
Related posts:
- Jim should back bringing back the youth minimum wage
- Minimum Wage for Youth
- Key on youth minimum wage
- The cost of no youth minimum wage
August 12th, 2011 at 6:30 pm
You conveniently overlook that only ONE New Zealand political party has ever proposed a Youth Mitigation of Unemployment measure.
Vote:And that party is the perennial whipping boy of the main stream media.
Imagine, for a moment, if Hillary Calvert had, in a deceitful manner, mishandled the wages tax funds held in trust for her employees.
She would be hung.
She would be drawn.
She would be quartered.
Why, oh why, does our main stream media loathe, hate and despise that particular political party.
August 12th, 2011 at 6:31 pm
Every man and his dog has his own theory about the English riots – and that theory is always in line with whatever agenda they have.
What’s odd, to me in any case, is the approval civil disorder in Syria gets from the same people who decry it in London and who also often suggested Syrian methods be deployed to deal with it.
We are a funny species when it comes down to it
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Change of topic –
General debate is overloaded…so
No change…..
NEW ZEALAND NATIONAL-LED GOVT. DOWN BUT HAS WINNING LEAD: 55.5% cf. 44.5%
________________________________________
Federal Poll : Finding No. 4693 : This latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll on voting intention was conducted by telephone with a NZ wide cross-section of 921electors from July 25 – August 7, 2011. Of all electors surveyed 8.5% (unchanged) didn’t name a party. : August 11, 2011
The latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows support for Prime Minister John Key’s National-led Government is at 55.5% (down 2%). Support for Key’s National Party is 51.5% (down 0.5%), ACT NZ 2% (unchanged), the Maori Party 1.5% (down 1.5%), and United Future 0.5% (unchanged).
Support for Opposition Parties is at 44.5% (up 2%) – Labour Party 32% (up 0.5%), Greens 7% (down 0.5%), New Zealand First 4% (up 1.5%), Mana Party 0.5% (unchanged) and Others 1% (up 0.5%).
If a National Election were held today the National Party would easily be returned to Government.
The latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Government Confidence Rating has risen 0.5 points to 128 with 57% (up 0.5%) of New Zealanders saying New Zealand is ‘heading in the right direction’ compared to 29% (unchanged) that say New Zealand is ‘heading in the wrong direction.’
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 6:37 pm
Tauhei – That same party has proposed we introduce transferable educations vouchers, and it is branded as fascist far-right pack of extremists by the MSM despite this policy working in Sweden…. the socialist state that has lefties all dewy-eyed in admiration.
Back on topic, we should have no minimum wages. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 6:53 pm
Men failing
A quick cut and paste from NCPA this morning. Written about the US but entirely relevant to the NZ situation.
As Girls Excel, What Happens to Boys?
Women today are entering adulthood with more education, more achievements, more property and, arguably, more money and ambition than their male counterparts.
http://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.com/
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 6:56 pm
Talk about killing people with kindness! I for one don’t think we’ve been benevolent enough. For example, if they have babies they should rather be afforded the option to eat them, and then, (and only then) if they can produce a correctly signed certificate to WINZ to prove they have consumed said offspring, they might be entitled to some free cake, but only if it is to be redeemed by a properly certified voucher, in designated retail outlets. Under supervision. Failure to comply could result in branding a ‘OT’ on their foreheads h(OT = Oxygen Thief) Only then an we be sure that we can avert the rioting we saw in the UK by all those teachers assistants, millionaire’s daughters and others who completely failed to live up to the archetypical image we all like to hold of unemployed youth, hoodies and, (let’s not forget) – niggas.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 7:14 pm
Andrei. The two situations source cannot be compared.
In Syria large numbers of people were peacefully protesting against the government. The government then sent in an armed response, and the violence has stemmed from there. Even so, I do not believe that there is widespread looting there. The people are defending themselves from armed government force deployed to stop them protesting.
In London, a small number of people were peacefully protesting the shooting of Duggan. Those protests were then hijacked by hooligans in order to burn cars and loot. That looting triggered copycat wanton mayhem once the hooligans saw the police response was muted. A more severe Police response is warranted since the ‘protesting’ is proving to be violent, wanton and out of control.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 7:15 pm
Just watching close up about feeding kids breakfast, the socialists must be rubbing their hands with glee. Another generation beholding to the state. Give it time they will be feeding the youths, poor dears can’t get job. I sometimes wonder if our greatest problem are those that believe they do Gods work.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
rouppe – the BBC used the term “protesters” for the English rioters until they got stick for it.
And if you think there are not low life taking advantage of Syrian civil disorder well ……..
These things always have to be viewed from where you sit.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 7:34 pm
I think Andrei makes good points, especially “Every man and his dog has his own theory about the English riots – and that theory is always in line with whatever agenda they have.”
And “protester” and “rioter” can depend on what side you want to take.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 7:36 pm
Andrei – you are bang on. People just use the riots to carry on pushing whatever hobby horse they had before. In this case youth rates.
DPF – your argument would be great if a lot of the rioters were, like, unemployed or something. Have you checked that? I think you’ll find a lot of them weren’t. Some of the UK media are reporting that people left work to get a bit of the action. And quite a lot seem to have been school kids.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
While I do actually agree with low minimum wages to get more youth employed (supplemented by government funding if need be, since I’d rather see it go there than benefits), Nick R is completely correct that most of the rioters do not seem to be disenfranchised unemployed beneficiaries as most of those ‘not in the know’ seem to automatically assume.
Examples, an apprentice teacher, an estate agent, a second-year law student, many more students, masses of school children from the ages of 11 through to 18, a millionaire’s daughter, a youth Olympic ambassador.
It’s disgusting. And frankly, while I’m sure that a lot of the looters WERE from benefit families, I would by no way assume they were even close to being all of them. The main demographic seems to be teenagers. If they were beneficiaries, it would be easier to say that the riots were politically motivated.
They weren’t. They were simply disgusting.
I’m glad London is calmer now.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 8:21 pm
…if you think there are not low life taking advantage of Syrian civil disorder
Don’t you mean the shootings or the arrests Andrei? Or the torture one is sure is happening. I think probably I’d protest against that myself, if it happened here.
Nah those riots were an opportunistic moment but it’s changed the climate now and the authorities already know what they did wrong. They have admitted they weren’t quick and hard enough early on and they’ll definitely do that next time.
I’ve mentioned Britons are the most surveilled people on Earth and heard on radio today your average Briton is captured 33 times a day on the 1.3 million cameras they have around the nation. Also they’re using facial recognition biometric technology to find the villains in the crowd. That’s handy isn’t it.
You could easily create software that raises alerts if riot like movement was detected anywhere on any of those 1.3 million cameras, were they networked together, which if they aren’t, they will be soon. That’s again pretty handy, isn’t it.
And they’ll just pull the plug on all the social media sites, at the first sign of it.
What’s worse though is it could happen in one of the major urban poor areas in an American city, because they have weapons.
Is this a sign of the times, like the beginning of the crowd riots in the 29-33 Weimar period, just world-wide?
Probably not, unless the idiots in charge do something really foolish, but of course that’s not going to happen.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
Here’s an interesting cultural perspective on the UK riots from a pro-gun conservative American:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2011/08/10/english-riots-moral-relativism-gun-control-and-the-welfare-state/
Extract:
“To make matters worse, the political class has disarmed law-abiding people, thus exacerbating the risks. These two photos are a pretty good summary of what this means. On the left, we have Korean entrepreneurs using guns to defend themselves from murdering thugs during the 1992 LA riots. On the right, we have Turkish entrepreneurs reduced to using their fists (and some hidden knives, I hope) to protect themselves in London.”
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 8:55 pm
That’s great logic from the pro-gun lobby when the US murder rate is 5 times that in the UK, and in the 1992 LA riots 52 people were killed compared to 2 in the UK.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Yeah, that’d help, a more heavily armed mob.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 9:14 pm
TM
Indeed. Still, it is an insight into the ‘right to bear arms’ mentality. Awaiting Kiwi In America’s rebuttal.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 9:14 pm
I reckon that the riots are caused by criminals.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 9:21 pm
That’s great logic from the pro-gun lobby when the US murder rate is 5 times that in the UK, and in the 1992 LA riots 52 people were killed compared to 2 in the UK.
You are saying there are five times as many murders per capita in the UK than the US? Evidence please.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 9:36 pm
I reckon that the riots are caused by criminals.
A lot of opportunists there GPT but the spontaneity of it was interesting, there must be a lot of thought going into this in various places in London right now.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 9:43 pm
DPF on your article, good point re: the tipping point at which the minimum wage starts to affect youth unemployment.
I would have thought a reasonable attack ad for National on this would be a simple run chart showing the two.
That would look quite good at major city intersections.
My caption would be: “Isn’t Liarbore mental?” but I expect your mileage may differ.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 9:49 pm
From the top two results from google on Murder rates. First one shows the US has a youth murder rate 11 times higher than the UK and a firearm murder rate 30 times higher than the UK (no total murder rate). Wikipedia has the US about 4 times higher than the UK
http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime
Vote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
August 12th, 2011 at 10:09 pm
True Reid. My point with, admittedly, a hint of sarcasm is that the behaviour should not be excused.
But as you point out there will be debate as to underlying causes and an important one at that.
For mine the issue was starkly displayed as a mother hurled abuse at media after leaving court with her 12 year old kid having been convicted of burglary. There is an underclass where working and self responsibility is a foreign concept.
The Right will say that is a result of benefit dependence, the Left that more money needs to be spent and in the meantime the underclass continues to breed…
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:16 pm
The Right will say that is a result of benefit dependence, the Left that more money needs to be spent and in the meantime the underclass continues to breed…
Curiously enough GPT I just made a comment on GD about that very issue.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Dusky (50) Says: – “While I do actually agree with low minimum wages to get more youth employed (supplemented by government funding if need be, since I’d rather see it go there than benefits)”
Why is such “government funding” not a “benefit” in your view?
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:32 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm
This is 2003 but notes an average over 200 years of your 5 times the rate but of interest as the violent crime rate goes down in the US it goes up in the UK. In 2002 the rate was 3.5 times.
Your LA example – how many people were shot and killed by lawful gun owners? I assume there may have been a few “legitimate” shootings but most were criminal acts by criminals.
Amazingly post comprehensive bans removing guns from lawful owners in Britain gun crime has gone up.
Allowing citizens to arm themselves is not a panacea, it may not even be the right answer, but it’s simplistic to take one set of statisitcs and claim that is evidence of a failed policy.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:41 pm
Points well made Reid. My concern regarding DPF’s connection (and I agree with his theory about youth rates in general) is that the types who are rioting in Britain and I see day in day out as Duty Solicitor don’t want to and don’t know how to work.
An example:
Vote:Me: “You working?”
Punter: “no”
Me: “so looking for work then?”
Punter ” um, off and on”
Me: “So what are you doing?”
Punter: “um, well, you know, it’s hard”
August 12th, 2011 at 10:45 pm
Andrei (971) Says:
August 12th, 2011 at 6:31 pm
Every man and his dog has his own theory about the English riots – and that theory is always in line with whatever agenda they have.
Kind of like Christians who believe that premarital sex and homosexuality will result in the downfall of society.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:53 pm
That’s what I meant by scruff of the neck GPT.
Why not.
Nothing else has worked.
I think I’ll write a letter to JK right now, I’m pretty confident he’ll campaign on it once he see’s how much more popular he’ll become.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:53 pm
krazykiwi Says: – “Back on topic, we should have no minimum wages. Zip. Zilch. Nada.”
I would agree with the proviso that a basic income be created in its place.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Courage Wolf – “Kind of like Christians who believe that premarital sex and homosexuality will result in the downfall of society.”
Of course because every straight man secretly wants to suck off other men and if homosexuality is tolerated then the world will turn into one big gay night club and no more babies will be created and then Jesus will return and everything will be destroyed!
Religion is just wonderful.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 10:59 pm
The US has it’s firearms 2nd amendment more from their belief in individual freedom than from a belief it would reduce crime.
I think you’ll find that the vast majority of people in the UK and NZ are firmly against the general population having almost unrestricted access to firearms like in the US. I have a licence and own a firearm, and I strongly believe I should be licensed, and would even support registration of individual guns.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 11:03 pm
But to the original topic, the economic theory linking increased minimum wage to increased unemployment is pretty universally accepted, except by a few people that cling on to dodgy empirical data. But like a few others have mentioned, I don’t think that contributed to the riots. The UK has a large proportion of people who have a sense of entitlement and believe they have no responsibility to society. “The state owes me a living, but I resent working for it”. They turn down job centre jobs because they are too demeaning, or they carry a condescending attitude when working in what they consider ‘low’ positions. And benefit fraud is merely topping up what they should be getting.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 11:11 pm
Well that’s no fun. I generally agree with all that TM. I have no issue being licenced and I agree that entitlement without obligation the major factor. And intergenerational entitement.
Vote:August 12th, 2011 at 11:36 pm
To Weihana,
“Dusky (50) Says: – “While I do actually agree with low minimum wages to get more youth employed (supplemented by government funding if need be, since I’d rather see it go there than benefits)”
Why is such “government funding” not a “benefit” in your view?”
Easy. Because in my own take of benefits and beneficiaries, they are handouts that are given for nothing. Government supplementing a lower paywage to encourage companies to take on employees with less experience/fortunate backgrounds would reduce the situation you get where many beneficiaries stay out of work because they are financially better off that way. I can’t even remember what it’s like in New Zealand anymore, but in UK it’s a pretty big thing that it is simply not worth it to go out and work for less money.
I fervently believe it is important to be in work, not just for finance, but also for feelings of self-worth, but while there is a situation where people can ‘earn’ more money by doing nothing, most WILL continue to do nothing.
So on the topic of the government adding extra to a paycheck for those on minimum funding, I don’t consider it a ‘benefit’ so much as a ‘supplementary income’.
Surely you’d rather see the government add a little to a paycheck than see them hand over the entire paycheck and have the person remain out of work for an indefinite period of time?
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 12:03 am
Dusky – Fair enough position I’m just being pedantic. Seems to me that even though you may work for *some* money, any supplemental income does not actually represent work, therefore it’s a benefit in my view. The money is given for the social welfare of the recipient. The employer, after all, doesn’t care about the supplemental income. They are motivated by the reduced price of employment.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 12:11 am
When I was a pimply faced teen age I was not worth my pay.
Vote:If you run a low skilled work force you are trying to make a living. You employ the most efficient labor units you can. you will only employ youths if the cost of teaching them first to work and then do the job is less than of an already trained adult.It is not so you do not employ them
August 13th, 2011 at 1:59 am
Although I agree that the minimum wage should be eliminated the people that are being dragged through the courts are mainly EMPLOYED! They have charged teachers, youth workers, opera ushers and all sorts. So the left wing bullshit that it was led by disaffected youth took a complete battering when those figures came out!
Still, it is rather nice watching the news seeing police smashing their doors in and pulling them out of their houses, one by one.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 6:24 am
You need Jobs before you have a minimum wage, working for $8.00 an hour at the warehouse because it is the only gig in town hardly qualifies.
For England the giant rust belt sitting idle in the midlands might be a place to start.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 7:06 am
Banana Llama.
I work in retail and have a number of young people come to us looking for work. Our employer pays well above minimum wage for sales staff in order to attract the best people. In fact, for doing the same work, my pay from my old employer to my new employer was an increase of $20k.
We are not likely to employ a fresh faced kid straight of the street. But if that kid has worked, even part time, for the local warehouse and shows a level of motivation and PROVEN ability, then we would give that young person a go, and we have never paid youth rates.
Now, youth rates can and do offer a stepping stone into valued employment, while teaching young people about the value of work. They are valuable, viable, and open the doors to opportunties that young people simply do not get at present. A job with $8 per hour has prospects, and a weekly income of $320. For a teenager, likely living at home, that is more than suffucient and much better than half that amount, for doing sod all, with no future prospects other than sireing indolent offspring for profit.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 8:34 am
I’m not sure that looking to pay less the the way to improve opportunities. a minimum wage may have some effect on employment – it’s not exactly a settled debate, but the availability of suitable jobs and training are likely to have a much greater influence on employment outcomes for young people.
Didn’t National have a ‘Youth Guarantee’ to help with this? How’s that going?
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 9:23 am
So i take it the Warehouse isn’t the only gig in town where you are from slightlyrighty and you are not one of the 50% who are below average academically.
you know what i don’t care … it takes to much energy … when the mongol hordes roast and eat your remains in the ashes of a retail store i will pour wine on your grave in memory.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 9:53 am
Ain’t that the truth about guns.
The same police who enthusiatically disarm the law-abiding public then just watch and refuse to intervene during the riot.
You’re not allowed to defend yourself, and the state won’t defend you.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 10:57 am
So, Banana Llama.
Do you actually wish me to die at the hands of a mongol Horde?
Do you actually even acknowledge the fact that I, as the son of immigrant parents, grasped the opportunities afforded me by the education systems in this country.
Do you acknowledge the fact that I pay taxes to help fund these opportunities for others, and constantly despair at the apathy of thse who fail to take them up.
Do you know what, I don’t care anymore. I have spent 100s of thousands of dollars of tax money, and see the opportunities that they create wasted by so many who continue to hold their hands out for more, rather than bettering themselves to help the next generation. I have spent 10s of thousands of my own money to go and help needy in the third world. Not for others to help them, but to actually go to africa and do volunteer work.
And what do I get? Veiled threats. You sir, are an ungrateful moron who doesn’t even understand the nature of the help we give.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 11:00 am
slightly
Just keep doing what you are doing. People should generally do what they know to be right and not bother too much with those who express their opinions but actually don’t do much.
Vote:August 13th, 2011 at 11:52 am
I told you i don’t care and i have no need to acknowledge anything you post, you make my position up for me then argue against them like they are my own, it is pointless.
Vote:.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
The mongol hordes will be after all of our asses if we don’t do anything about unemployed youth.
Vote:New Zealand businesses are small, 90% employing less than 5 employees. A common complaint found in these businesses is that the cost of labour restricts growth and reduces profitability. Employers would employ more staff if they could afford them, but there is little flexibility in the labour market.
Employers would hire more young people straight out of college if they could afford them, and that is the end of the spectrum that we need to look at.
I am totally in favour of a youth rate for employees under 18. This rate could be set at $10.00 per hour, which is not an unreasonable figure. The government could contribute by lowering the tax rate to 15%.
It is not difficult.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mHvSDZnvfE
Vote:This clip worries me. We have many, many unemployed young ones like this here!
August 14th, 2011 at 11:41 am
There are youth rates in England, one for those <18, a higher rate for those 18-21 and a higher rate for those 22+.
It would seem that youth are more likely to riot when there are youth rates (UK) then when there are not (NZ).
Vote: