Trotter endorses Key for second term

August 20th, 2011 at 1:02 pm by David Farrar

writes:

It is, perhaps, the greatest achievement of ’s first term in government that the breakdown in social cohesion that Rob Campbell feared  and which we have just witnessed on the streets of England  has not taken place on our own.

For this the prime minister merits high praise.

What kept us together was his inspired decision to bring the Maori Party into his government. Had he not done so: had he simply relied on National’s natural allies in ACT; things could have been very different. The Maori seats, for example, would have been slated for abolition. This move, alone, threatening as it did the very existence of the Maori Party (and leaving them with dangerously little to lose) would have tested New Zealand’s social cohesion to breaking-point. Serious political disturbances  up to and including terrorist violence  could very easily have torn this country apart.

Simply for sparing us that terrible scenario, Mr Key deserves a second term.

I never thought I would see the day where Chris Trotter endorsed a National Prime Minister for re-election.

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77 Responses to “Trotter endorses Key for second term”

  1. berend (1,599 comments) says:

    Trotter endorses John Key. Really, no comment necessary.

    Vote for more socialism, Nats. Because John Key deserves to borrow more money, $380 million a week is not enough. This country needs to be brought to the Greek brink of extinction.

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  2. RF (1,126 comments) says:

    “BANG” !!!! noise heard coming from Goffs office.

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  3. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Yea, and in his next week’s column he will be calling for roving death squads against non-union employees.

    He alternates between being reasonable and being extreme left. Rather a cynical tactic to retain wide readership – I simply can’t take anything he says seriously.

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  4. kowtow (6,685 comments) says:

    Too many of the “commentariat” are locking onto the English riots and saying “watch out you bastards,it can happen here”.

    It’s almost a threat.Note the use of the word “terrorism”.

    The riots in England are due to mass immigration and a country that has been battered by years of PC and human rights.
    The police are afriad to enforce the law especially when race is claimed to be an issue. So if you want a parallel there you have it, one law for all. We are citizens of this once proud country and division based on race is racism.

    The Maori seats are an anachronism and should be abolished.

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  5. tvb (3,937 comments) says:

    I have never favoured the abolition of the maori seats and used my position at one stage in the National Party to help frustrate any moves in that direction. Maori need that protection that they will get a guarantee of representation in Parliament. Don Brash with his blatant anti maori bashing over this reveals his latent racism. Brash should focus on innovative approaches to policy instead of knee jerk responses to maori issues that are superficial and ignorant. Key is playing a much subtler game and is by far the more skillful politician.

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  6. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    If anything, this is an indictment on John “Ass-Kissing” Key rather than praise. What a fucking idiot who is too pussy to do anything about the Maori seats. David loves the fact that our PM is focusing on the important issues facing our nation, such as:

    * Making himself look good in front of the cameras.
    * Marginalising reforms such as introducing a youth wage.
    * Not offending the economically illiterate mum and dad voter.
    * Winning over people like Trotter by pandering and compromising values for the Centre-Left.

    Such leadership! Such inspiration! Such a contrast to Helen Clark!

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  7. berend (1,599 comments) says:

    Courage Wolf: Such a contrast to Helen Clark!

    Nah, the Nats only core belief is that they can do socialism better than Labour. They’re better caretakers, and better and building big government than Labour.

    Historians will look back at John Key in bewilderment: how got this man away with borrowing many billions from New Zealand’s children?

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  8. Courage Wolf (559 comments) says:

    I was being sarcastic berend, Key’s main goal in politics is to keep his cock soft. He’s in it for his own gratification, he loves being a celebrity, but has zero interest in actually helping the country.

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  9. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    scrubone (906) Says:
    August 20th, 2011 at 1:23 pm

    Yea, and in his next week’s column he will be calling for roving death squads against non-union employees.

    He may not get the chance.

    Some people say there is a lamp post or two looking for him!

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  10. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    More wank than usual Christopher, but you are the master at saying one thing and wriggling the knife in at the same time..

    The riots in Britain weren’t political , they were large scale opportunistic vandalisim by shit bags and as stated above the cops are scared if they do anything the stations will be besieged by people wanting to make complaints. So do nothing, get no complaints

    Just be honest Chris, National then daylight. Labour are so fucking dead in the water that you couldn’t remotely write a coloumn that was in anyway positive about Phil and Co. and expect to get paid.

    Its just being so condescending to the PM and to the Maori Party, that if things had been different in the government we have that there would be upheaval, please. I know there are many that would love to see disorder on a large scale here on both the right and the left but we live in a great little country its sad that so many have no idea.

    But thanks anyway, the Prime Minister will sleep well tonight knowing that you’ve given him the “two thumbs up”

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  11. gravedodger (1,426 comments) says:

    While Trotter praises John Key for avoiding racial politics nosediving into violence he issues a barely veiled threat of just that outcome if anyone touches the guaranteed socialist support by whoever holds the race based seats.

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  12. reid (15,505 comments) says:

    The Maori seats, for example, would have been slated for abolition. This move, alone, threatening as it did the very existence of the Maori Party (and leaving them with dangerously little to lose) would have tested New Zealand’s social cohesion to breaking-point. Serious political disturbances up to and including terrorist violence could very easily have torn this country apart.

    Just when a lefty starts making sense, they veer off into the fantasy land whereby all conservatives are evil and one of the reasons is they would just love to abolish the Maori seats. Has it occurred to Trotter that (a) the reasons for abolishing the Maori seats are constitutional and not emotional as in, no, it’s NOT because conservatives want to “keep those uppity Maori down, hur hur” and (b) Key has proven to be a PM who would not do that anyway regardless of whether the MP is in the govt? Too unpopular and controversial you see Chris. Key avoids that like the plague.

    BTW I’m a conservative and I want to keep the Maori seats. How does that suit with your stereotyping there Chris? BTW, I’ve decided I’m going to report you to the authorities for stereotyping, I thought lefties didn’t like it when people do that. Ummmm.

    While Trotter praises John Key for avoiding racial politics nosediving into violence he issues a barely veiled threat of just that outcome if anyone touches the guaranteed socialist support by whoever holds the race based seats.

    Agree gd. Interesting and sinister at the same time, isn’t it. Wonder who Trotter supports, politically at the mo. Let me guess. It’s Mana, isn’t it.

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  13. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Its interesting living in a country that is creating its own doom.
    All the funding, all the apartheid apologist polices and what do we have a steadily growing voice for more and a more militant outlook from the disfranchised.

    We all know how successful apologist polices were in averting the second world war

    Some day soon we are going to see an escalation in violence here.

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  14. wikiriwhis business (3,276 comments) says:

    I said a couple of years ago on KB that Trotter had left his socialist roots. No helped Hullun had helped the process.

    Keys major push is for compulsory super saving. For the sake of investment banks to raid. Well after Key has left the house of course. But he’s set up Goldman Sachs here and have you seen their track record and the international law suits filed against them. 500 mill paid out in courts last year by them. But the Key govt has them here and no doubt they are in Oz where pension schemes are compulsory.

    I personally believe super schemes should only be compulsory after a certain wage thresh hold.

    I predict Key will announce his retirement from the house just shortly before the world wide depression hits in 2012.

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  15. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    I agree scrubone; Trotter’s blogs are almost schizophrenic. One moment he attacks the more rabid elements of the left, the next – the National Party are all gangsters (just for having a conference and being National!). I’ve stopped visiting his blog for now because he’s so inconsistent (and also he’s over-sensitive in his moderation, which seems typical of left-leaning blogs here; Dimpost excepted).

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  16. Viking2 (10,695 comments) says:

    tvb (1,909) Says:
    August 20th, 2011 at 1:35 pm

    I have never favoured the abolition of the maori seats and used my position at one stage in the National Party to help frustrate any moves in that direction. Maori need that protection that they will get a guarantee of representation in Parliament. Don Brash with his blatant anti maori bashing over this reveals his latent racism. Brash should focus on innovative approaches to policy instead of knee jerk responses to maori issues that are superficial and ignorant. Key is playing a much subtler game and is by far the more skillful politician.

    Maori do not need that protection. Chlidren need protecting but the Maori race does not. One only has to count the number of Maori in Parliament to see the truth. Plenty of them there, in fact they are the greatest number by ethnic group.
    So what you are saying is that you have been one to encourage the takeover of the National Party by Maori so they can them become the National Maori Party.
    A point I have made a few times lately.
    The sooner racial privilege os stomped on the better. Of course we could perhaps point out that Minto is standing for Parliament. Is that because he doesn’t want apartheid in NZ or is he part of the apartheid movement he so despised.

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  17. jaba (2,068 comments) says:

    there are things that this Govt has done that I’m not happy with BUT ..and I’m sure many will agree, the alternative is something that must not be allowed to happen

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  18. jacko (7 comments) says:

    Damned with faint praise . . . no praise at all you silly blogger!

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  19. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    I don’t particularly have any desire to get rid of the Maori seats because they are still one-person, one vote. They don’t get to vote in the general roll also (if they did, I would oppose them). But they aren’t ideal either because they lack elegance, from a systemic point of view. It would be better if there was higher engagement by Maori in the civic process as a natural fact, or at least help to reform it to a point where all NZers feel a sense of engagement (while maintaining democratic principles; I don’t support Margaret Mutu’s aspirations for an ethnic oligarchy for example).

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  20. tvb (3,937 comments) says:

    Maori do have a special constitutional position in this country and the Maori seats are a minimal recognition of that. If they were abolished then something else would have to be worked out. I do favor having a Maori Grand Committee that can settle all legislation relevant to Maori except for the third reading which can be for the whole parliament. The Westminster Parliament has something similar called the Scottish Grand Committee.

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  21. kowtow (6,685 comments) says:

    tvb……..maori need protecting……

    How patronising is that?

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  22. gump (1,228 comments) says:

    I oppose the concept of Maori seats.

    But I think the Maori Party should be commended for their efforts in this last Parliament. They’ve shown a real willingness to engage with the mainstream political process and have made a real contribution to social harmony in NZ. In other words, they’ve used the Maori seats to do good.

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  23. Viking2 (10,695 comments) says:

    tvb (1,910) Says:
    August 20th, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    Maori do have a special constitutional position in this country and the Maori seats are a minimal recognition of that. If they were abolished then something else would have to be worked out. I do favor having a Maori Grand Committee that can settle all legislation relevant to Maori except for the third reading which can be for the whole parliament. The Westminster Parliament has something similar called the Scottish Grand Committee.

    Clearly you learnt history onNZ in recent years after it had been rewritten to suit.
    People like you are plain and stupidly dangerous.
    Go and learn some real history about NZ and you will find that those seats should have been abolished a long time ago. Indeed twice they have rolled over their expiration clause.
    If you don’t know, go look and learn and don’t be so lazy as to expect others to do that for you.

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  24. Viking2 (10,695 comments) says:

    Goff emerged from open­ing the Hunter Build­ing at Vic­to­ria Uni­ver­sity in March 1989 to find stu­dents lying on the ground all around his car. He walked back to Par­lia­ment, trailed the whole way by stu­dents chant­ing “Phil Goff F*** Off” — led by the then Vic­to­ria Uni­ver­sity Stu­dents’ Asso­ci­a­tion pres­i­dent Andrew Little.

    Oh dear. Little hats is finally catching up.

    Hattip Whaleoil

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  25. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    tvb

    “relevant to Maori”

    Like on the Auckland council ?

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  26. UpandComer (496 comments) says:

    I need to dig out a whole lot of papers I have read in public law and jurisprudence regarding Maori grievances. They lay out the historical facts and effect regarding early New Zealand colonial law and rule and points of view regarding the treaty.

    When I find these I’ll post them, and hopefully a google search will provide the full texts.

    The effect of reading the available material is fairly sobering when it comes to Maori. Maori do not need protection. However, Maori have legitimate claims to affirmative action. To suggest otherwise is to deny sociology, psychology, economics, forensic science, quantitative statistics, history and pretty much reality.

    Note that affirmative action is something temporary. Of course there are trade offs – as always it is distribution vs efficiency. Personally I think if you are of the self-determination creed as everybody on here professes, you should not have such poverty of mind and small cohones as to begrudge giving people a helping hand.

    As to Courage Wolf and Berend, the hairy-chested brawny super-conservatives, when will you understand your views belong permanently in opposition. Mr Key and Mr English have taken National to a special place.

    There is a reason why Act is polling under 1%, or whatever that party are polling at. National have to reform the country as they are able to. Straight forcing shit on people is as bad when it comes from the Right as when it comes from the Left.

    It’s a simple formula – Your views + execution = permanent Labour government. Understand?

    If the government has to hold borrowing constant to look after people in the short-run and ensure a centre right government, so be it. If you listen to Bill English and Mr Key they are both well aware that the current state of affairs is not desirable in the long run. However they can hold variables constant and change them as they can. If you actually look at the sum total of changes in taxes, national standards, welfare, tightening up of various eligibilities, electoral law, getting rid of ridiculous crap like the fast forward fund, Broadband, the balanced approach to the carbon tax National has accomplished a massive amount in a country and media that is unfortunately more Left oriented.

    John Key is a person anyone can and should look up to. It’s great that he has the personal freedom to be the Prime Minister because he loves it. That is the absolute optimal state of living/competence. He could leave it if he wanted tomorrow and live a marvellous life. What a dude. Heaps of my mates who are all Lefty trash have been convinced otherwise because I have proven to them that Lefty thinking will never make a John Key. It’s hard to argue with amazing life outcomes.

    Cut some of that hair off your chest and start thinking a little with the other sides of your bodies and brains. You can be conservative without being totally ineffectual. It’s the equivalent of being a damn hippy always rabbiting on about stuff you think very strongly is right. The trick is to get people to agree with you.

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  27. reid (15,505 comments) says:

    Maori do not need that protection. Chlidren need protecting but the Maori race does not.

    It’s not about protecting. Put a Maori and a Pakeha in the same room and tell them it’s a fight to the death and only one of them is allowed to come out, who do you think is going to win, nine times out of 10? No, Maori seats are not about protection, it’s about Mana.

    Mana is critical to Maori. Any adult over forty who doesn’t recognise that and calculated what that means to NZ hasn’t lived in the same country I have.

    Mana in the context of the political process is given freely by true [i.e. not fake, false, superficial or powerless] consultation.

    This applies both nationally and in the provinces and cities.

    The need to do this is unique to NZ for Maori are unique therefore we can’t look to any models to emulate. The closest are Australia and South Africa and they have different population ratios which appears historically to have been one of the critical determinants in the way colonial history panned out in these nations with respect to its effects upon the conditions each country has today.

    But jumping to the here and now, granting or denying Maori a meaningful seat at the table not just nationally but also in the provinces, is the only way to either give or remove their mana. Personally I don’t see that Pakeha give much away if we give them a meaningful seat at all required tables. OTOH, the nation as a whole gains a huge uptick in national unity and goodwill.

    For those who think this is dangerous for it opens the door to clipping the ticket, Maori have always been a generous open people. Haven’t they. So hold them at their word. If we start down this path and Maori start adopting a widespread “clip the ticket attitude,” then have a cup of tea, and discuss what they used to say about how all they wanted was to be consulted. That’s how you deal with that issue.

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  28. radar (319 comments) says:

    What does it say about A) Chris Trotter, and B) the people he’s talking about that he actually thinks they would have resorted to “terrorist violence” if the Maori seats had been abolished.
    Abolishing the Maori seats wouldn’t have disenfranchised anyone, as far as I know.
    They still would have been able to vote, but just on the general role like the rest of us.
    If there are people who would resort to violence on such spurious grounds then they should be investigated.

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  29. reid (15,505 comments) says:

    UC, I have little confidence in some historical “facts” that are sometimes put forward in official fora.

    Some Maori seem to imagine they their ancestors lived in some sort of 20/20 world where they had all the wisdom, insight and understanding that the 21st century brings us yet none of the barbarous brutality that was actual life in the 17th and 18th centuries.

    Isn’t that peculiar.

    I wonder why they seem to think that.

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  30. Don the Kiwi (1,316 comments) says:

    Everyone to enrol on the maori roll.

    End of problem. ;-)

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  31. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    On one hand we have Brash calling for one man one vote and equality for all New Zealanders. On
    the other the likes of tvb declaring that Maori (Maori race) need the protection of seperate Maori seats.
    Which view invites the label racist ?
    tvb… protection from what or whom ?
    Then we go to reid who wants to ‘give’ them a ‘meaningful’ seat at the table to preserve their Mana.
    Just a triffle condescending.
    i take it that ‘us’ giving ‘them’ a meaningful seat is the only way this race can get representation.
    Right reid ?

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  32. Viking2 (10,695 comments) says:

    Nah, its the money they want. fuck all to do with mana. Mana is about oneself and how one see’s oneself in the world. Some races collect cattle, others goats, others gold, others oil, to Chinese its about “face” its all about wealth in terms relative to the race.
    Maori mana was once the preserve of Chiefs. They were usually the toughest, strongest and became leaders of their grouping for that reason.
    Mana is an overstated description of personal ranking.

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  33. UpandComer (496 comments) says:

    Fair enough Reid. I would take anything that came out of some Maori trust funded Wananga academic with a pinch of salt, although I wouldn’t totally discount off the bat.

    I think there has to be some faith in academic fact-finding. Otherwise we can’t find any objective reality anywhere, which is a disturbing thought. My faith in these facts comes from the ethos and the logos of the individuals involved. These people have standing, have been rigorously peer reviewed and have no incentive to make what they find fit someone’s agenda for the most part. Haha at least under a National government!

    Another reason I have faith is that the laws in operation at the time are still on the books. One can see for oneself how these laws would have operated. One can also see that the colony of New Zealand ignored a lot of laws beneficial to Maori coming from London.

    One can also see as a matter of logic the compounding effects of early policies.

    I have faith that disciplines of thought are merited. For instance that there is such a thing as economic and cultural legacy as suggested by psychology and sociology.

    Of course that only goes so far.

    The unconstructive big mouth Harawira’s of this world are just a waste and strain on everybody’s patience and resources.

    Maori have to align themselves with the present, and what is in the present. Almost all the worthy ones with a bit of education do, but fair point bro.

    I think it is excellent that there is a Maori party which is in the government that also thinks the Harawira’s are a waste of New Zealand’s time. There are a lot of Maori out there rich in more then just motor skills haha. It’s good for New Zealand that most Maori aren’t going along with Labour’s patronising condescending ‘you need us little Maori’ attitude.

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  34. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Maori are interested solely in what is good for Maori. The Maori leadership is interested in what is good for the Maori leadership.
    Nether of these things are inherently good for the country. So why give them an extra or guaranteed voice over the rest of us.

    APARTHEID=A policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.
    Not just negative discrimination positive as well.

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  35. reid (15,505 comments) says:

    i take it that ‘us’ giving ‘them’ a meaningful seat is the only way this race can get representation. Right reid ?

    Petty much bereal. That’s about it, really. Why?

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  36. Johnboy (13,335 comments) says:

    “I never thought I would see the day where Chris Trotter endorsed a National Prime Minister for re-election.”

    Chris of Tarsus perhaps ? :)

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  37. tvb (3,937 comments) says:

    The Maori seats are an entrenched part of our Parliament, and have been so for some time. Anyone who does not support that can go and live in Israel where minorities are treated like trash.

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  38. Johnboy (13,335 comments) says:

    Or one could continue to live in an open democracy where all options are discussed such as New Zealand tvb!

    Still who am I to rain on your parade? :)

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  39. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    A bit of ignorant random Israel bashing tbv?

    Israel’s is a multi-racial country with citizens from more than a 100 different countries of the world.
    Israel is the most racially, religiously and ethnically diverse country in the Middle East.
    Israel is the ONLY country in the region that permits citizens of all faiths to worship freely and openly
    The only country in the ME with a Baha’i temple and where Baha’i can practise their faith unrestricted is Israel.
    Israel was the first Middle East country to grant Arab women the right to vote.
    Some 200,000, non Jewish, migrants from Romania, Thailand, China, Africa and South America, have made their home in Israel.
    Israel has given refuge to more than 16,000 non Jewish African asylum seekers.

    Or do you like your countries Judenrein?

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  40. Chuck Bird (4,401 comments) says:

    Griff, are you Maori?

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  41. Johnboy (13,335 comments) says:

    Stop talking sense Other_Andy.

    It’s wasted on fuckwit’s! :)

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  42. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    No I am a New Zealander
    Anything else would be a racist standpoint

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  43. big bruv (12,321 comments) says:

    ” Put a Maori and a Pakeha in the same room and tell them it’s a fight to the death and only one of them is allowed to come out, who do you think is going to win, nine times out of 10?”

    Perhaps the dumbest and most racist thing I have read on this blog.

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  44. Chuck Bird (4,401 comments) says:

    “Anything else would be a racist standpoint”

    Why

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  45. Chuck Bird (4,401 comments) says:

    “Maori are interested solely in what is good for Maori ”

    Griff, if you are not Maori what evidence have you to back up that statement?

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  46. Chuck Bird (4,401 comments) says:

    “The Maori seats are an entrenched part of our Parliament”

    What evidence have you to support that view point?

    Should not such an issue be decided by a referendum and preferably one that required a super majority of say 60%.

    If such an issue were decide by say 51% – roughly what gave us MMP I can see some Maori being upset.

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  47. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Perhaps people should note that Trotter’s main point was that the government deserved re-election for ignoring its right wing during its first term but that looked like coming to an end next term, so smart swing voters might like to consider witrhdrawing support now – while that might be harsh it was simply the only way to prevent asset sales and a possible NACT government.

    Basically he raised the question, what was there to restrain National’s right if there was no longer a party like the Maori Party to balance off ACT?

    After all people elect a government to implement their manifesto and do people want to elect a party that is commited to asset sales?

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  48. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Other Andy, can you name one Arab Cabinet Minister or one Arab MK who has been part of an Israeli government coalition? This despite being 20% of the population?

    Or explain why no Arab serves in the IDF, when the rest of the population is conscripted?

    Why Arab villages are contained within their 1948 territorial areas and are not allowed to expand into surrounding land, this while it is official Israli policy to expand Jewish settlements in the West Bank on the ground that a settlement has to expand or it will die?

    Why it is so hard for an Arab to live anywhere in Israel but in an Arab community?

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  49. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird
    one
    Racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in people’s traits and capacities that are entirely due to their race, however defined, and that, as a consequence, racial discrimination (i.e. different treatment of those people, both socially and legally) is justified.
    two
    I am a New Zealand does not say I have no Maori ancestors. It does not describe my race it describes my country of origin.
    three
    I see little evidence of any other stand point, Maori have since first contact desired the best for them self’s. The biggest example is the treaty and its changing meaning overtime. There can be no doubt that they sighed it to protect themselves from their fellow Maori. That is not the present interpretation because they see that as prejudicing of their demands for apartheid. Retaining their seats under MMP is their interest. It creates a division that distorts the 5 percent threshold that apply to the rest of us.
    Now tell me why you think they don’t and they aren’t

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  50. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Griff, when electoral reform was looked into the Royal Commission recommended Maori seats be abolished AND there be a low rate threshold (lower than 5%) – that would have facilitated a Maori Party to stand and win seats and aslo some of the Christian parties that have stood and also NZF in 2008.

    I think the process of Treaty (iwi) settlement conclusion should help an attempt at affirmative action/closing the gaps to the point where Maori should then be left to consider whether they see a point to the continuance of these seats – with Maori being polled on this matter. Basically these seats have a purpose to allow their voice within the parliamentary process until justice has been done.

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  51. Chuck Bird (4,401 comments) says:

    Griff, firstly it is up to you to prove the point as you made the statement. For a start how do you define Maori?

    My point is that no one speaks for Maori anymore than anymore than someone speaks for woman, men, New Zealanders of any racial heritage. Sharples or Hone certainly do not speak for the majority of Maori let alone all Maori

    Do not get me wrong I would like to see an end to separate Maori seats but I believe the best way is by a referendum. While I cannot speak for Maori I am sure some people who identify as Maori would vote for one electoral role just as there would be the Minto’s who would vote the other way.

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  52. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @SPC

    “Other Andy, can you name one Arab Cabinet Minister or one Arab MK who has been part of an Israeli government coalition? This despite being 20% of the population?”

    MK Raleb Majadele

    Current members of the Knesset
    Afu Agbaria
    Hamad Amar
    Mohammad Barakeh
    Taleb el-Sana
    Masud Ghnaim
    Ayoob Kara
    Raleb Majadele
    Said Nafa
    Ibrahim Sarsur
    Hana Sweid
    Ahmad Tibi
    Majalli Wahabi
    Jamal Zahalka
    Haneen Zoabi

    Arab citizens of Israel have been elected to every Knesset, and currently hold 12 of its 120 seats. The first female Arab MP was Hussniya Jabara, a Muslim Arab from central Israel, who was elected in 1999.
    Abdel Rahman Zuabi, a secular Muslim from northern Israel, was the first Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court, serving a 9-month term in 1999. In 2004, Salim Joubran, a Christian Arab from Haifa descended from Lebanese Maronites, became the first Arab to hold a permanent appointment on the Court. Jubran’s expertise lies in the field of criminal law.
    Ali Yahya, an Arab Muslim, became the first Arab ambassador for Israel in 1995 when he was appointed ambassador to Finland. He served until 1999, and in 2006 was appointed ambassador to Greece. Other Arab ambassadors include Walid Mansour, a Druze, appointed ambassador to Vietnam in 1999, and Reda Mansour, also a Druze, a former ambassador to Ecuador. Mohammed Masarwa, an Arab Muslim, was Consul-General in Atlanta. In 2006, Ishmael Khaldi was appointed Israeli consul in San Francisco, becoming the first Bedouin consul of the State of Israel.

    “Or explain why no Arab serves in the IDF, when the rest of the population is conscripted?”

    There are.
    Arab Generals in the IDF include Major General Hussain Fares, commander of Israel’s border police, and Major General Yosef Mishlav, head of the Home Front Command and current Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories.Both are members of the Druze community. Other high ranking officers in the IDF include Lieutenant Colonel Amos Yarkoni (born Abd el-Majid Hidr) from the Bedouin community, a legendary officer in the Israel Defense Forces and one of six Israeli Arabs to have received the IDF’s third highest decoration, the Medal of Distinguished Service.

    By law, all Israeli citizens are subject to conscription. The Defense Minister has complete discretion to grant exemption to individual citizens or classes of citizens. A long-standing policy dating to Israel’s early years extends an exemption to all other Israeli minorities (most notably Israeli Arabs). However, there is a long-standing government policy of encouraging Bedouins to volunteer and of offering them various inducements, and in some impoverished Bedouin communities a military career seems one of the few means of (relative) social mobility available. Also, Muslims and Christians are accepted as volunteers, even at an age greater than 18.

    “Why Arab villages are contained within their 1948 territorial areas and are not allowed to expand into surrounding land, this while it is official Israli policy to expand Jewish settlements in the West Bank on the ground that a settlement has to expand or it will die?”

    “Arab villages” in Israel have the same restrictions as “Jewish Villages” when it comes to building restrictions.

    “Why it is so hard for an Arab to live anywhere in Israel but in an Arab community?”

    Nonsense, Israeli Arabs have full citizenship in Israel. Israeli Arabs can and do live anywhere in Israel.

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  53. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Maori define themselves read above definition of Racism
    My point is that the separatism in things like health and justice ownership of natural resources special attachment to the land etc is racist
    Threatening.words like “would have tested New Zealand’s social cohesion to breaking-point”.is often the end point when you discus this subject. Yet as we have gone down this road race relations in this country have got worse. The more we give the worse it gets if you think that treaty settlements will stop boy have our friends got news for you

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  54. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Other Andy, can you name one Arab Cabinet Minister or one Arab MK who has been part of an Israeli government coalition? This despite being 20% of the population?

    I ask you again because you failed to name one person in either category. Care to answer the question I asked again?

    A clue, despite having about 20% of MK posiitons as their share of the population would indicate, they are excluded from coalition governments and thus are not in Cabinet.

    Coalitions are formed from the other 80% of MK’.

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  55. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    I’ll rephrase my second question, why are there no Arab members of the IDF apart from those separated from the majority of this population such as Druze and Bedouin. And as for not requiring conscription by Arabs, why are only Bedouins targeted for voluntary service?

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  56. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    On 10 January 2007, Labor leader Amir Peretz announced that Majadle would be appointed Minister of Science, Culture and Sport. On 28 January 2007 the cabinet voted to appoint him Minister without Portfolio. His appointment was confirmed by a vote in which all ministers except the chairman of Yisrael Beiteinu, Avigdor Lieberman, voted in favour. In March 2007 Majadle received the Science, Culture and Sport portfolio.

    Although welcomed by many, Majadle’s appointment was controversial among several groups of politicians. Mohammed Barakeh of Hadash attacked it as a “dirty trick” that would not advance Arabs, while Lieberman and Esterina Tartman of Yisrael Beiteinu claimed it was damaging to Zionism. The latter criticism was itself extremely controversial, with lawmakers from across the political spectrum branding Lieberman’s and Tartman’s remarks racist; a number of Labor lawmakers demanded that Yisrael Beiteinu be expelled from the governing coalition as a condition of Labor continuing to participate in the government

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  57. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    I’ll regard your answer to my third question as part ignorance, part evasion and part deliberate lie – the restrictions are not even the same in law let alone in practice.

    Restrictions on Arab access to land and housing across Israel is well documented.

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  58. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Grifff, that shows the novelty of the idea after 50 years of the state to have an Arab as a Minister, did you note the issue of whether he would actually participate in Cabinet meetings or be a Minister outside Cabinet?

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  59. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Not real interested in Israel I can understand why they would have anti Arab policy’s the Arab world has repeatedly sworn to annihilate them.

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  60. TimG_Oz (883 comments) says:

    I think this thread has gone way off topic… There was an Arab MK in Australia earlier this year, and I can tell you he was glowing in his report of Israel as a democracy. Quite happy singing Hatikvah as national anthem, and thought that it was ignorant and invalid of people to use the term “apartheid”. I’m looking for the link..

    Also, there are Arabs that serve in the IDF in non-military roles – Search and Rescue, Fire emergency servcies etc. They are given death threats by Arab extremists for doing so.

    Sorry, Don’t have time to chew the fat too much, but I feel much of the BS of SPC can be rebutted.

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  61. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Yeah right, enjoy the drink.

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  62. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Griff, it’s of course obvious why those who are occupying the land awarded for another state would have the policy it has – note that its term for a Palestinian state is that this state be effectively a disarmed one with its borders secured by the Israeli military.

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  63. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @SPC

    “I ask you again because you failed to name one person in either category. Care to answer the question I asked again?”

    Read.
    First name, Raleb Majadele.
    Any other questions, use your own computer.
    Google it.

    Are you also concerned about minority rights in the rest of the Middle East, where the few remaining minorities have not yet been driven out, expelled or killed?

    What about the rights of women, gays and religious minorities in the rest of the Middle East?
    What about Jordan, which has a law on its books explicitly prohibiting any Jew from becoming a citizen, or any Jordanian from selling land to a Jew?
    Concerned about that?
    What about the law in Saudi Arabia where Jews are not allowed to enter?
    Not a problem?
    What about the laws in most ME countries that will not allow other religions to proselyte and do not allow other religions to even build places of worship by law?
    There are NO churches in Saudi Arabia. Only one was built recently in the UAE but is was not allowed to have a church tower and any signs on it.
    That fine with you?

    Why focus on Israel while all the other countries in the Middle East are openly racist and discriminatory?
    Why not Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Jordan, Egypt……
    Why hold Israel to a different standard?

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  64. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Palestinians did not own the land before the Israel’s turned up they were at best peasant farmers. You think with the Palestinians efforts in the past Israel could do anything less?

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  65. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Why hold Israel to a different standard?

    Because it is a beacon of democracy?

    Because it made the desert bloom?

    Because the IDF is the most moral army in the world?

    Because Israel says it is different?

    Because Israel holds the record for the most breaches of UN resolutions?

    Because Israel perpetrates the longest and most brutal occupation since WWII?

    Shall I continue?

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  66. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Griff, but from the security posture to the Israeli state comes what is effectively an occupation status to the Arab citizens within Israel itself not just on the West Bank. This is why Majadele was the first and still only Arab Minister (and that since as recent as 2007). Notably he was a lobbyist for the Druze (and activist within the Labour Party related organisations) who sometimes have served in the IDF.

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  67. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @Luc

    You are a one eyed bigot.

    Israel IS a beacon of democracy in the Middle East.
    Israel DOES make the desert bloom.
    The IDF IS the most moral army in the Middle East.
    Israel does not say it is different.

    “Because Israel holds the record for the most breaches of UN resolutions?”

    All instigated by the UN controlled by a bloc of Islamic and African states, backed by China, Cuba and Russia, who protect each other from criticism.
    Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
    Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
    The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
    The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
    The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

    “Because Israel perpetrates the longest and most brutal occupation since WWII?”

    Here you show your complete ignorance.
    The only land Israel occupies is the Golan Heights.

    What about East Timor, Tibet, the Western Sahara?
    You are showing your colours.

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  68. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    other andy

    So there is only ONE Arab Minister in the history of the state of Israel. And he was appointed in 2007 in the 49th year of the state. Arabs represent 20% of the population.

    No problem with saying that human rights are a problem in the entire Middle East, but it is rare that a self proclaimed only democracy in the region has so much difficulty with the issue of providing equal rights to 20% of their population (though Turkey still has problems with minorities and Kuwait is progressing into some form of democracy).

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  69. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @SPC

    “No problem with saying that human rights are a problem in the entire Middle East, but it is rare that a self proclaimed onlyh democracy in the region has so much difficulty with the issue of providing equal rights to 20% of their population”

    And you are telling me that you have no idea why that is?
    The following from Haaretz, the most left\socialist paper in Israel.
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-arab-mks-don-t-always-represent-israeli-arabs-1.330493

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  70. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    The only land Israel occupies is the Golan Heights.

    Are you serious?

    Aside from the fact that the occupation of the Golan Heights is both occupation and brutal, the whole world, including the US, for all the good that does, is united on the fact that Israel occupies the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as well as the Golan.

    The record of UN resolutions against Israel is for one simple reason: Israel is a serial offender.

    All that saves it from the sanctions it deserves is the US – and one day, maybe sooner than you think, that support will end.

    The rest of your stuff is just racist crap – European Jew invaders good; indigenous Arabs bad.

    Simple stuff for a simpleton.

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  71. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    other andy, the article was a column by Moshe Arens, being published in the Haaretz no more makes it left wing than an article by Richard Long is left wing because it is in the same paper that publishes Chris Trotter.

    Love his opening quote though

    “Most Jewish citizens, having little direct contact with Arab citizens, inevitably base their opinion of the views held by Israel’s Arab population on Arab MKs’ speeches”

    Yeah given they live in separate communities that is no surprise. And of course statements by Arab MK’s from separatist Arab parties are difficult for Jews to accept, a bit like Don Brash listening to Hone Harawira. The real issue is in why so many of the other parties are without Arab MK’s in them. They are either religious or Jewish nationalist or focused on a right wing security first policy – that leaves just parties like Labour which includes all sorts in the labour movement or a real left wing party to include them.

    This is a quote of Majadele

    “I fail to understand how an enlightened, sane Jew allows himself to ask a Muslim person with a different language and culture, to sing an anthem that was written for Jews only,” in reference to Hatikvah, the Israeli national anthem.[7] Majadele went on to point out that, although he does not participate in singing Hatikvah, he does express respect for the song by standing up when it is sung.”

    google that up on wikipwedia

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  72. SPC (4,611 comments) says:

    Luc, the relevance to this topic is of course in the blessing the Pakeha provided Maori by their arrival and the similar blessing received by the Palestinian. But in the end some resititutive justice is sure to follow there as well.

    Here there is the place of Maori in parliament including a place in coalition government including the MP and Maori representation within major parties as well.

    Our anthem is of course sometimes sung in Maori, the haka is part of our culture and it is an official language.

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  73. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    SPC

    A day to look forward to is when Palestine/Israel national anthem is also bilingual.

    Perhaps in a new nation called New Palestine.

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  74. Spiritfree (79 comments) says:

    Maybe everyone has moved on from this debate, but I’ll weigh in anyway.

    IMO the riots in England were little to do with race, much more to do with culture, or lack of. Read this for more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8711621/UK-riots-Its-not-about-criminality-and-cuts-its-about-culture…-and-this-is-only-the-beginning.html
    In summary, there is a ‘class’ in England which has no culture as you or I know it. It’s hard to call the admiration of gangs, routine theft and the denigration of women and gays, etc, etc, etc a culture. I remember back in I think it was the late 80′s when MTV reinvented itself…it threw out any music worth listening to and embraced hip hop and rap. The new head of MTV Europe responsible for that change was, sadly, a New Zealander.

    NZ will never get to grips with the problem at its heart unless and until the overwhelming majority of Maori recognise that the life they lead prior to colonisation was shite and that they are much better off now than they would have been had colonisation not taken place. There is the treaty, the incorrect one (go to the Littlewood Document for the real thing) giving in effect special privileges to a people who were in effect crying out for another set of peoples to stop them killing, enslaving and eating one other as part of their routine way of life. Fortunately, in effect, a large number of Maori have done so, have accepted this, but it’s just not talked about. It’s not considered to be ‘the done thing’ to do so. It’s the elephant in the room.

    In order for any relationship to be a healthy one, there has to be forgiveness. Say we have two people in a relationship, on e feels aggrieved, the other’s been made to feel guilty, quite wrongly. The first one says, “Hey! I need $100000 for what you did to me years ago!” The other reluctantly agrees. After all, he’s been made to feel guilty. Is that kind of relationship a healthy one? Obviously not. What is needed is for there to be true acceptance of the other, for there to be forgiveness. This cannot happen under the current way of things. There can only be a perpetuation of resentment – and that is what is going on right now.

    NZ has the absurd situation of, for example, in order to suck up to Maori Mana, free life insurance being on offer to Maori, under Whanau Ora. Not means tested. Something like $20000 paid out immediately for the Tangi. And another couple of hundred thou afterwards. I kid you not!

    Equal shares for all. It’s about time. Embrace the Littlewood Document, rip up the bogus Treaty, put an end to the claims industry once and for all, accept accept accept that everyone is equal and that the status quo as is is probably just about right. And then, and then New Zealand can really move on and move forward.

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  75. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Cost estimate for this racist crap
    Successful providers will retain the funding they receive through existing contracts, which
    will be developed into Whänau Ora contracts. It is estimated the combined value of these
    contracts will be around $200 million a year.

    value negative

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  76. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Upandcomer writes:

    “As to Courage Wolf and Berend, the hairy-chested brawny super-conservatives,”

    They are not Conservatives. As far as I can tell most of the people who post here and who support ACT are various shades of libertarian. ACT is not a Conservative party.

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  77. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Because Israel perpetrates the longest and most brutal occupation since WWII?”‘

    Ahem.

    Tibet.
    The Soviet Empire.
    Chechnya.
    I could go on easily.

    “Shall I continue?”

    No. We have heard enough from Jew-haters.

    “Perhaps in a new nation called New Palestine”

    Where Jews will once again be a minority living at the whim of Jew-haters.

    You really have a hard-on for someone finishing Hitlers work dont you.

    “The record of UN resolutions against Israel is for one simple reason: Israel is a serial offender.”

    No, its because Jew-hating Arabs and their Left-wing allies in the West have been allowed to dictate the debate at the UN.

    “the whole world, including the US, for all the good that does, is united on the fact that Israel occupies the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as well as the Golan.”

    So your telling us that your a mindless sheep who goes with the crowd, ragardless of the facts.

    Do you wear jackboots when your marching in step?

    “The rest of your stuff is just racist crap – European Jew invaders good; indigenous Arabs bad.”

    Arab Semites are not indigenous to Eretz Yisrael. They are not indigenous to anywhere except the Arabia. They are the decendents of Arab invaders who invaded and destroyed several civilisations after the advent of Islam.

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