Where is the line on boycotts?

August 16th, 2011 at 9:00 am by David Farrar

The Australian reports:

ANTI- activists face investigation for alleged secondary boycotts under landmark attempts by the Baillieu government to curb the global campaign to target companies and businesses linked to the Jewish nation.

The Australian Competition & Consumer Commission has been asked to investigate anti-Israeli campaigners who have joined the global Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions group to determine if they should be prosecuted for threatening stores with Israeli ownership or connections.

The ACCC has been asked to consider injunctive relief and damages after 19 people were arrested following an ugly clash between police and protesters outside the Max Brenner store in Melbourne’s CBD on July 1.

The protesters allegedly blocked potential customers from entering the store as part of an “orchestrated campaign” to impose what the government believes is a secondary boycott on the chocolate and coffee store. …

Mr O’Brien told The Australian it was unacceptable to single out any businesses but that it was especially concerning given the 20th-century history behind attacks on Jewish businesses.

“I am concerned that the persons and organisations who caused these disturbances may have engaged in secondary boycotts for the purpose of causing substantial loss or damage to Max Brenner’s business,” he said. …

The Max Brenner shops have allegedly been targeted by the BDS movement for supplying to the Israeli defence forces.

Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd recently met with Victorian federal Labor MP Michael Danby at the same Max Brenner store as the BDS protest. “I don’t think in 21st-century Australia there is a place for the attempted boycott of a Jewish business,” Mr Rudd said at the time. “I thought we had learned that from history.”

Nostradamus highlighted this story to me. He noted:

I think this is a story with potentially huge implications, and that’s not just because I’m a corporate and commercial lawyer.

No surprise that the usual suspects are behind the anti-Israel protest.  I’ve highlighted them below for you.  But, unlike John Minto making a nuisance of himself at a tennis match, these guys are taking things much further: it’s one thing for a person to say “I’m not going to shop at ABC because they support XYZ”; it’s quite another to prevent other law-abiding customers from entering a shop.

All of this raises an interesting philosophical principle.  Even if one sympathises with the BDS movement (which I don’t), how far can they legitimately take their protest?  And how much of a direct link (real or imagined) between a company and Israel does there need to be before the BDS movement gains a semblance of legitimacy?

I think blocking others from entering clearly crosses the line, and good on the Victorian Government for looking at legal action.

And while I can respect the diversity of views on Israel, targeting a shop because they may have sold chocolates to the IDF seems rather over-kill. If they were selling them guns, then I could understand the rationale more.

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112 Responses to “Where is the line on boycotts?”

  1. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Mmmmmmm …. Max Brenners … Yum! Reminds me I need another hot choc from there again today!

    All these smelly dickheads do is drive more and more people there, and make them more popular in the mainstream.

    Last time I was there the place was PACKED out. And it’s not like Melbourne is short of coffee / chocolate places.

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  2. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Gee, I see this O’Brien character is pretty quick off the mark to play the Holocaust card here, likewise Kevin Rudd. Senseof proportion seems a bit lacking.

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  3. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    My brother is at Brenners most Friday evenings where these muppets are a feature to trying to physically prevent people entering the shop. There is nothing anti-Israeli about them. They are pure anti-Semities echoing 1930′s Germany.

    But then being an anti-Semite doesn’t really make them unique these doays. Does it mike.

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  4. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    This is rather old news.

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  5. lofty (1,303 comments) says:

    mikenmild the nazi apologist now…who woulda thunk??? But only in business hours eh mikenmild.

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  6. lofty (1,303 comments) says:

    It may be old Joana but that does not make it any less relevant, don’t you think?

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  7. Elaycee (4,299 comments) says:

    I’m overnighting in Melbourne Thursday night and I’ll now make a point of having a coffee at Max Brenners.

    It would be unwise for any moron to try and prevent me from going about my lawful business. :)

    TimG_Oz – is the ‘best’ outlet the one at 210 Lonsdale St?

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  8. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    lofty

    That’s a bit rough. Is there a difference between anti-semitism and opposing some actions of the Israel government?

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  9. dime (9,396 comments) says:

    joana – i think youre the worst troll here.

    also, id love to see a bunch of lisping hippies try and stop Dime from entering a shop.

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  10. louie (89 comments) says:

    milkenmild at 9:34.

    “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.” – Martin Luther King

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  11. smttc (689 comments) says:

    Mikenmild, now that you are back at work, why don’t you try and tell us why Max Brenner’s shops are fair game for these protests.

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  12. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, dangerous and very real anti-Semitism is alive and well.

    The “Protocols” are now prominently displayed not only in the Middle East, but also on the Western and Christian bookshelf. Books based on the “Protocols” are now available even in countries with hardly any Jews such as Japan. A Chinese bestseller entitled “The Currency War” and based on the “Protocols,” describes how Jews are planning to control the world by manipulating the financial system. The book is reportedly read in the highest government circles.

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  13. Brian Smaller (3,985 comments) says:

    I don’t know about you jokers but I would love to see these anti-semite protesters try to block me entering any place.

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  14. flipper (3,542 comments) says:

    Well in NZ we have the watermelon reds who are targeting the Nat Super Fund because they have invested in an off-shore company that has tobacco interests.
    Tobacco and smokling – I hate both. Never have; never will.
    BUT…
    My retirement future is invested in and by the Super Fund. I expect them to maximise financial returns (since I am also borrowing (well, was) to invest).
    Norman and his idiot followers need duct tape over their mouths and wrists.

    It would be nice if Billie Eng told Norman where to go. But that might offend some idiot TV puke.

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  15. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Hi Elaycee.

    There are two, Melbourne Central and QV (which is the Lonsdale St) … QV is a bit hard to find if you haven’t been there before, so maybe try Melbourne Central first.

    Hard to say which is the “best”, but Melbourne Central has slightly better seating arrangements, in my opinion.

    Thanks

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  16. lofty (1,303 comments) says:

    @mikenmild, you may think its a bit rough…tough.

    In answer, no I do not see a difference, it is all anti semitism, and a dangerous path to cross onto.

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  17. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    smttc

    I’m not making a case for this boycott. I’m just saying that such a protest is not automatically anti-semitism.

    We already have lofty saying directly that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitc. I wonder if that is also true of Israeli citizens who criticise their own government.

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  18. smttc (689 comments) says:

    Mikenmild, if the protests are not anti-semitic then there is no problem with these boycotts? Right? Is that what you are inferring?

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  19. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    smttc

    I have no problem with people boycotting something as a political protest. The assumption seems to have been made that this boycott is somehow anti-semitic, and I’m not sure there is any evidence of that.

    Whether this boycott is justified, I’m not so sure. I think the protestors’ point would be better made if they targetted the Israeli government more directly, but this group seems to be set on a ‘disvestment’ campaign along the lines of that waged agasint South Africa in the 1980s.

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  20. Griff (6,715 comments) says:

    They have the ability to protest they do not have any right to stop people shopping were they will. This reminds me of the incident when my old boss ran over a union protester in the eighty’s. This is where the protesters are heading violence that they provoke being used to forward their cause.

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  21. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    Newsflash for mike, Max Brenner is the bloody Israeli government.

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  22. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “I see this O’Brien character is pretty quick off the mark to play the Holocaust card here, likewise Kevin Rudd. Senseof proportion seems a bit lacking.”

    Tell that to a survivor of the Holocaust. Your concept of “proportional” is likely to be very different than someone who lived through that. The fact remains that anti-semitism is alive and well and increasing, largely because of the dis-proportionate level of hatred and criticism directed at Israel from both the Western left and the Islamic world.

    “I’m just saying that such a protest is not automatically anti-semitism.”

    In theory perhaps, but in practice the unbalanced attacks, and sometimes downright dishonest lies aimed at Israel are so extreme that clearly anti-semetism is behind them. Deliberate targeting of businesses that deal with Israel is only a hairs breadth away from 1930′s Germany.

    The far left IS engaging in anti-semitism and always has done.

    “Auschwitz meant that six million Jews were killed, and thrown on the waste-heap of Europe, for what they were considered: money-Jews. Finance capital and the banks, the hard core of the system of imperialism and capitalism, had turned the hatred of men against money and exploitation, and against the Jews. . . . Antisemitism is really a hatred of capitalism.”
    —Ulrike Meinhof, left-wing German terrorist of the 1970s

    From The Socialist Roots of Modern Anti-Semitism

    http://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=359

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  23. Elaycee (4,299 comments) says:

    @Tim_Oz – thanks for the tip.

    I’m catching up with a local who is actually based in Russell St, so I’ll suggest we stroll down to 210 Lonsdale for a coffee…

    He also has a low threshold of tolerance for morons who try to tell him what he should be doing. :)

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  24. hmmokrightitis (1,507 comments) says:

    Funny – was in Wellington a few months back, and trying to get down to the BNZ foodhall for some lunch, and the entrance was effectively blocked off by Matt McCarten’s braying masses, holding Unite signs and baying for JD HiFi blood. Given it was lunchtime they had effectively slowed everything to a crawl, but good Welly commuters formed a queue and slowly made their way in.

    I walked up to two of these spotty brain dead oiks and asked politely for them to move. They didnt. Being 6 foot and solid with it helped me forge a new entrance. Which the crowd soon used, and the protestors became less united ;) On the way back up the escaltor, I got glared at – win :) As I walked past I suggested they get a real job and a haircut – enjoyed that moment.

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  25. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    I’m quite happy to boycott JD HiFi – they’re a nasty outfit. Hope that’s not anti-semitism.

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  26. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    What crime has JD HiFi supposedly committed?

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  27. Scott Chris (5,875 comments) says:

    I think it was Other_Andy who was arguing a couple of weeks ago that humanitarian aid to the Palestinians is tantamount to aiding terrorism, because it frees funds for Hamas to buy arms.

    A long bow to draw IMO, and targeting diasporic Israeli businesses employs much of the same extreme rationale.

    The singling out of Jewish interests in Australia is faintly, and unsettlingly reminiscent of 1930s Germany, but the politics and ideological motivation of these two instances are completely different. The former is protesting against Israeli foreign policy, the later was based on racial ideology, and was a xenophobic prelude to genocide.

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  28. Ryan Sproull (7,027 comments) says:

    Blocking other people from entering is just a bad idea. Does your cause no good. Every person you block and everyone who hears about it will be put off hearing your concerns. Same goes for the tennis protests.

    I’m all in favour of boycotting Israeli goods and writing letters to the Israeli government letting them know that you’re doing so, and why.

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  29. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    What crime has JD HiFi supposedly committed?

    LMGTFY, idiot.

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  30. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Lee

    JB Hi Fi had a bunch of Australian managers lording it over the local peons. Not sure how the strike action etc was resolved.

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  31. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    So, no crime at all then.

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  32. alwyn (380 comments) says:

    @10.30 Lee01
    A very good question which is rather hard to answer because.
    The company concerned is JB HiFi not JD HiFi.
    Doesn’t seem to worry Mikenmild though.

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  33. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Anything involving the Unite Union is immediately suspect. This group of unrepentent communists and terrorist supporters should be legally disbanded.

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  34. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Thanks cha. I didn’t want Lee to have to go to that much trouble though.

    Alwyn – very sorry to repeat the typo from hmmokrightitis, I’ll try harder in future.

    Lee -got any other organisations you want banned?

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  35. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “I didn’t want Lee to have to go to that much trouble though.”

    Life is short and I’m writing an assignment at the same time as checking in here. Sometimes the whining if the left is just not worth the effort. ;)

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  36. hmmokrightitis (1,507 comments) says:

    My bad, JB HiFi – my 10 year old would have known that, he loves the place :)

    Wonderful shop, great selection, low prices. Perfect.

    “and all customers coming out of the store agreed with the Union that the workers deserve a living wage” LMFAO, right. They are being forced to work there, right? The staff Ive seen in there are always helpful, but the tatooed fringe which otherwise struggles to find gainful employment – there choice, not ours. Good on them for working, and screw you unite. Pay your friggen taxes you hypocritical bastards. But do have a nice day :)

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  37. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “this group seems to be set on a ‘disvestment’ campaign along the lines of that waged agasint South Africa in the 1980s.”

    Yeah, cause THAT worked out sooo well.

    http://ilanamercer.com/newsite/into-the-cannibals-pot.php

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  38. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Don’t ya just hate them damn socialists Lee01.

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  39. KiwiGreg (3,170 comments) says:

    JB HiFi is a great store. I would say from the happy helpful staff that if they are being “lorded over” by management they must like it. And as an employer they seem to give plenty of opportunity to tattooed and pierced folk of all the main genders froom the stores I have been in.

    It must be really tough shopping when you have to carry all this prejudice around with you.

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  40. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Ahh Sotuh Africa, that haven of racial justice that Minto worked so hard for…

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article7078730.ece

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  41. emmess (1,368 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, the Assad regime in Syria has been shelling a Palestinian ‘refugee’ (why it is refugee camp after nearly 45 years is another story. Were there German refugees in West Germany from Eastern Europe in 1990?) camp with gunboats from the coast.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14533967

    I don’t ever remember Israel doing that
    Where the fuck is John Minto et all?

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  42. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Don’t ya just hate them damn socialists Lee01.”

    Comparing Jewish Left Zionists to Minto’s crowd is comparing apples and oranges. Nevertheless as the article I posted a link to shows, Socialism HAS been closely linked with anti-Semitism historically.

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  43. Griff (6,715 comments) says:

    Had a good debate with a lefty on refugee’s. She got very upset when I pointed out to her that white south African woman were refugees from the horrific crimes in SA in particular rape. blind idiot Told me i was wrong. Minty should be sent to South Africa to learn all about black justice

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  44. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    Socialism HAS been closely linked with anti-Semitism historically

    Catholics!.

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  45. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    The former is protesting against Israeli foreign policy, the later was based on racial ideology, and was a xenophobic prelude to genocide.

    Actually, if you go along to the protests in Melbourne, you will see they are quite xenophobic. Mostly young, angry, white males. I have not seen any protests against “Israeli Foreign Policy”, but lots against the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. The BDS movement calls for a Palestine from the “River to the Sea”, a “Palestine next to a Palestine”, and legitimatizes Hamas, even though they call for death to the Jews.

    LMGTFY, idiot.

    Good to see that cha doesn’t support the boycott. Google is a great Jewish business, with strong ties to Israel :-)

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  46. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    emmess

    You too could Google:
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Refugee-camp-shelled-by-Israel-report/2006/08/09/1154802927291.html

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  47. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    Scott Chris (373) Says:

    “I think it was Other_Andy who was arguing a couple of weeks ago that humanitarian aid to the Palestinians is tantamount to aiding terrorism, because it frees funds for Hamas to buy arms.”

    If you have my quote please paste it.
    IMO,”Humanitarian aid” to the “Palestinians” is the same as funding Hamas.

    Don’t compare the Israeli government, a democratically elected government, with a terrorist organisation such as Hamas. This is moral relativism of the worst kind.
    And before you start. While Hamas may have been elected to govern with the PA in 2006, the first and only national Palestinian elections, one election does not a democracy make. Hamas used the ballot box (And lots of money from overseas) to gain a foothold, then employed anti-democratic means (Violence and intimidation) to impose its own suffocating vision on the land. Hamas violently ousted the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority from Gaza in 2007, throwing the members of the opposition from the rooftops, and has ruled ever since.

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  48. Longknives (4,421 comments) says:

    I too wish I lived in Melbourne today so I could pop into Max Brenners for a coffee…I’d love to tell the smelly dropkick protesters what I think of them, and while I’m at it exactly what I think of their beloved Hamas as well…

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  49. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Andy

    Does that apply to humanitarian aid to Gaza from the US or Israeli governments as well?

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  50. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Hi Mikenmild.

    I don’t understand – From 2006 Launching a strike against a terrorist stronghold that fires rockets at civilians and kidnaps soldiers in Israel.

    What does that have to do with a chocolate shop in Melbourne today?

    Also good to see you using Google. Obviously you don’t support the boycott either!

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  51. Scott Chris (5,875 comments) says:

    LMGTFY = Let me google that for you (for the benefit of blog illiterates such as I)

    Cha is positively loquacious this morning ;-)

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  52. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Tim

    emmess was just asking if Israel ever shells refugee camps. Apparently it does.

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  53. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    mikenmild at 11:33 am

    And targetting and killing terrorists is of course the same as targeting and killing civilians.
    Another case of moral relativism.

    The Syrian army targets the civilian population DELIBERATELY and all the civilians were killed DELIBERATELY. The civilian causalities caused by the Israelis when targeting terrorists (As is the case in the article) are the result of collateral damage and mainly directly (by using civilians as human shields) or indirectly (By launching rockets from schools, hiding ordinance in mosques and other civilian buildings) caused by the terrorists themselves.
    And the terrorists proudly acknowledge that.

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  54. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    # TimG_Oz

    I’ve no religious ties but I do have strong family ties to Jews, both here at home and in Israel, and it annoys the fuck out of me that there’s hardly a mention of a deeper, darker, and more insidious anti-Semitism, posted above, that exists today yet it’s only ever Minto and muppets acting out in Melbourne making the news. ….grrr….

    ,

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  55. flipper (3,542 comments) says:

    MIKEN…..
    Time to pull your head in.
    Please go back to your state/ratepayer funded, make work, job.
    Moreover, it is about time you read history. Miken, go read the biog of Chiam Weitzmann. In 2011, sadly, the Grand Mufti is alive and well in your mind (and others, sadly).
    Your contributions have a disgusting resemblance to those esapoused in the 30s/early 40s in effete New York/WASHINGTON media circles.

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  56. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    “Does that apply to humanitarian aid to Gaza from the US or Israeli governments as well?”

    Humanitarian aid?
    What do you think happens with the billions of dollars and Euros shipped to Hamas every year?
    You are not that naive are you?

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  57. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    emmess was just asking if Israel ever shells refugee camps. Apparently it does.

    Let me get this straight – you are equating:

    1. The shelling of a refugee camp in response of missile attacks.
    with
    2. The shelling of a refugee camp in response to demands for democracy.

    Just want to make sure we all understand.

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  58. Scott Chris (5,875 comments) says:

    Other_Andy

    Without trawling back through Kblog, I can’t paste a direct quote. If I have misrepresented your views, then I withdraw my assertion and apologize.

    I will however paste your subsequent statement:

    Andy says: “IMO,”Humanitarian aid” to the “Palestinians” is the same as funding Hamas.”

    To me, this is logically correct but is irrelevant, unless the aid is given with the express purpose of freeing up funds for arms. All events in a dynamic world are interconnected, so one can only differentiate them by analysis of intent.

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  59. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Andy

    Does Israel supply humanitarian aid to Gaza? If so, does that make it complicit in the terrorist attacks by Hamas?

    flipper

    I’m not sure what you are on about. I just don’t make the mistake of assuming that any criticism of Israel must be anti-semitic.

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  60. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    Scott Chris

    “Without trawling back through Kblog, I can’t paste a direct quote. If I have misrepresented your views, then I withdraw my assertion and apologize.”

    No need to apologise.
    Just that it is a bit hard to respond to something I might have said several weeks ago.
    My memory isn’t that good.

    “To me, this is logically correct but is irrelevant, unless the aid is given with the express purpose of freeing up funds for arms. All events in a dynamic world are interconnected, so one can only differentiate them by analysis of intent.”

    The relevant bit is the fact that Hamas is a terrorist group. Israel is a democratic country.

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  61. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    “Does Israel supply humanitarian aid to Gaza? If so, does that make it complicit in the terrorist attacks by Hamas?”

    Yes it does and many people (Including Israelis) think they are batshit crazy supporting a group that wants to destroy Israel.

    As the Hamas charter says (You can find it on the Web)…….
    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
    “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”
    “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

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  62. RRM (9,435 comments) says:

    FFS;

    the 20th-century history behind attacks on Jewish businesses

    Is not a reason to be especially concerned about this incident. The specific rights and wrongs of this incident are enough.

    This sort of melodrama just feeds the “Any criticism of anything Jewish anywhere is anti-semitism” trolls…

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  63. cha (3,779 comments) says:

    mikenmild (1,904) Says:
    August 16th, 2011 at 11:44 am
    Andy

    Does that apply to humanitarian aid to Gaza from the US or Israeli governments as well?

    Other-Andy, Mm, having not much better to do I’ve trawled and found this comment.

    They knowingly finance terrorism against all of Israels population by giving humanitarian aid to Hamas and the PA so freeing up monies for Bombs and Bullets.

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  64. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    cha,

    “hardly a mention of a deeper, darker, and more insidious anti-Semitism, posted above, that exists today yet it’s only ever Minto and muppets acting out in Melbourne making the news”

    I’m sure people dismissed the Nazi’s at some point in the 1920′s as well. I agree that Roman Catholic anti-Semitism is evil, but it makes no sense to use that to dismiss the anti-Semitism of the secular left. Both need to be opposed.

    RRM

    “Is not a reason to be especially concerned about this incident.”

    Yes, it is.

    “The specific rights and wrongs of this incident are enough.”

    Ignoring the deeper motivations of the anti-Zionist Left is willful ignorance.

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  65. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    @cha

    “Other-Andy, Mm, having not much better to do I’ve trawled and found this comment.”

    So it was mick mac’s comment.
    This was about Norway.
    Can’t disagree with his comment though.
    Norway is one of the most anti-semitic countries around and they have supported Hamas directly.

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  66. KH (687 comments) says:

    ……….So we are back to citing the Nazis again. Sigh.
    eg. “the 20th-century history behind attacks on Jewish businesses”
    Reminds me of the quote.
    “It is an insult to the victims of Nazism to use their memory to justify ………..”
    — Whatever atrocity the Israeli government is up to at the moment.

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  67. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    Yes it was my comment, based on the fact that our governments giv e our after tax monies away to whomever they will with no accounting for how our hard earned taxed money is used for.
    I think we have a right to know what is done with our money and if we can’t know then it shouldn’t be given away.

    This is exacerbated by the fact that from time to time the mass media finally lets us know what’s behind the curtain and that these Dictators/tyrants anti semetic shitheads are squirreling our money away for themselves or spending it on arms and not looking after their people.
    This to me is one big fail over whether they should have a state at all. They are children financed by do gooder wankers in the EU, Nordic countries and wallies who follow suit in the antipodes by suplying them with loads of our dosh with no accountability.

    Therefore we are being deliberate as we NZ knows what they are doing, therefore we are complicit in all the violence as we contribute to the funding of terrorism.

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  68. kiwi in america (2,434 comments) says:

    Its one thing to attempt a boycott regardless of the issue – its a whole other matter to attempt to force your boycott on others by blockading a retail establishment. Some on the left only believe in freedom of speech if its speech approved by them.

    For the record I LOVE Max Brenner’s and make a point of several visits when in Australia.

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  69. Elaycee (4,299 comments) says:

    @longknives says: “I too wish I lived in Melbourne today so I could pop into Max Brenners for a coffee…I’d love to tell the smelly dropkick protesters what I think of them, and while I’m at it exactly what I think of their beloved Hamas as well…”

    I’ll happily have a second cup and raise it on your behalf whilst I’m there this week if you like. And if I happen to ‘bump into’ any of said smelly protesters, then I’ll take care to only spill the coffee in one direction too….

    This could be fun! :P

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  70. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    I have never been there but next time I am in Melbourne I will be going, if only to spit in the eye of some loony lefties.
    stopping people from going about their lawful business.
    They need a sjambok across their legs.

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  71. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    “I too wish I lived in Melbourne today so I could pop into Max Brenners for a coffee…I’d love to tell the smelly dropkick protesters what I think of them, and while I’m at it exactly what I think of their beloved Hamas as well…”

    Never heard of Max Brenners…..
    It looks like they are all over Australia.
    http://www.maxbrenner.com.au/locations/
    Thanks for the tip ‘protesters’.
    From now on I will make sure I visit one of their stores whenever I am in Australia.

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  72. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/08/15/hamas-engineer-tells-all-to-israel/

    page 2 is telling.
    The US is spending $100million USD in Gaza, that frees up monies for explosives and chemicals for terror.
    Meanwhile people are really hurting in the USA whilst their hard earned cash is being used to indirectly prop up an Islamic terrorist regime.

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  73. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    It takes a certain power of mind to accuse the United States of backing Hamas. Will the next story be one about the Vatican funding jihad?

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  74. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “It takes a certain power of mind to accuse the United States of backing Hamas”

    So you have proof that US and Western Aid money does not help HAMAS?

    Plus the US is currently run by Obama who has bent over backwards to apologise and crawl to Muslims, so anything is possible.

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  75. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Well Lee, if you want to show how the US supports Hamas (along with the government of Israel) go right ahead. Perhaps in your ideal world there would be a tighter blockade on Gaza preventing anything going in or out.

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  76. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Well Lee, if you want to show how the US supports Hamas (along with the government of Israel) go right ahead.”

    Your the one claiming they don’t, so the burden of proof is on you. I’m not claiming anything except that it needs looking into.

    “Perhaps in your ideal world there would be a tighter blockade on Gaza preventing anything going in or out.”

    No, in my ideal world the Jordanian Arabs pretending to “palestinians” would be expelled from every inch of Eretz Yisrael and the entire land liberated from the vile yoke of Islamic imperialism.

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  77. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Well at least you are clear about you desire for ethnic cleansing. Not everyone is so honest about their dreams of conquest.

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  78. hj (6,348 comments) says:

    Protesters target cafe in Gaza row

    Several people being served at the Mevlana Cafe said the cafe owner was standing up for what he believed in.
    Robert Guyton, [Greenfly] of Riverton, said Mr Tekinkaya felt passionately about the death of innocent women and children and “who could blame him?”
    He added he empathised with the two Israeli women ordered out of the cafe.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/798552

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  79. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Well at least you are clear about you desire for ethnic cleansing. Not everyone is so honest about their dreams of conquest.”

    Its not ethnic cleansing or conquest. It would simply be a continuation of the population transfer policy that was in place when Israel was first liberated.

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  80. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    One person’s ‘conquest’ is another person’s ‘liberation’. Makes not much difference to the people who are ‘transferred’.

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  81. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “One person’s ‘conquest’ is another person’s ‘liberation’.”

    Moral equivalency is always a weak argument.

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  82. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Like calling ethnic cleansing a ‘population transfer policy’?

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  83. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Not at all. One has nothing to do with the other, while saying “One person’s ‘conquest’ is another person’s ‘liberation’.” is like saying “one persons apple is another persons orange.”

    On the other hand supporting the so-called “palestinian” cause is effectively supporting the ethnic cleansing of Jews from their own land.

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  84. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    mikenmild – You can argue a point all you like, but the fact is that Israel has said publicly it supports a Palestinian state within Gaza and the West Bank, whilst Israeli Arab citizens within Israel are afforded the full rights of citizenship.

    How do you describe Hamas’ policy towards Jews?

    Thanks

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  85. Elaycee (4,299 comments) says:

    “How do you describe Hamas’ policy towards Jews?”

    This’ll be good.

    Popcorn…… :)

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  86. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    Israel’s wrong, all they are doing is going along with the viscuious world of the Un, EU, and other dogs breakfasts aropund the world, it’s the path of easier resistsnce.
    As it is, there already is a Palestinian state.
    Jordan.
    Israel should do what they should have done in 1967, annex Judea and Samaria and anyone who doesn’t want to live in a Jewish state can move to Jordan and join the Palestinians there.

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  87. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Mick

    Yes, I gather that is Lee’s preferred option as well, along with taking a bit more of Lebanon, Egypt and Syra.

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  88. Scott Chris (5,875 comments) says:

    What is the rational moral argument in support of Jewish state greater than that which exists within UN recognized borders?

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  89. Scott Chris (5,875 comments) says:

    Bearing in mind:

    Moral relativism may be any of several descriptive, meta-ethical, or normative positions. Each of them is concerned with the differences in moral judgments across different people and cultures:

    Descriptive relativism describes the way things are, without suggesting a way they ought to be. It seeks only to point out that people frequently disagree over what is the most ‘moral’ course of action.

    Meta-ethical relativism is the meta-ethical position that the truth or falsity of moral judgments is not objective. Justifications for moral judgments are not universal, but are instead relative to the traditions, convictions, or practices of an individual or a group of people. The meta-ethical relativist might say “It’s moral to me, because I believe it is”.

    Normative relativism is the prescriptive or normative position that, because there is no universal moral standard by which to judge others, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others – even when it runs counter to our personal or cultural moral standards. Most philosophers find that this position is incoherent, or at least that it is unclear how meta-ethical relativism can lead to ‘ought’ statements.

    Wikipedia

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  90. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    Scott Chris

    “What is the rational moral argument in support of Jewish state greater than that which exists within UN recognized borders?”

    What UN recognized borders borders….

    1. In 1920, the League of Nations ratified the Balfour Agreement. This established a Jewish nation covering todays Jordan and Israel.
    2. In 1922, under pressure from the Arabs, the British and the League of Nations took away Jordan. The Jews and the Arabs signed this agreement. Judea, Samaria was part of Israel under this agreement.
    3. In 1947, the UN offered the Partition Plan in which the arabs would also get Judea and Samaria, but the Arabs rejected it.
    4. When the United Nations recognized Israel as a nation on May 14, 1948, the Arabs declared war on Israel. Israel defended herself, but Jordan took the West Bank and East Jerusalem, ethnically cleaned it and confiscated and destroyed Jewish places of worship.
    5. In the 1967 war Israel took back the West Bank and Jerualem which was legally hers BY INTERNATIONAL LAW.

    What is the rational moral argument in support of another arab (“Palestinian) state?
    They already have 80% of Israel and an independent “Palestinian State”.

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  91. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    I don’t think Jordan was promised by the Balfour Declaration, which merely undertook to establish a Jewish national home in Palestine

    How were the West Bank and East Jerusalem ‘legally’ Israel’s in 1967?

    Could you explain how 80% of Israel is ruled by Arabs?

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  92. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Dude .. you gonna answer my question from 3.25pm?

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  93. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Tim

    Sorry – I don’t know much about Hamas, you could read about them here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

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  94. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    So you are happy making post after post on something you actually don’t know much about….. Or you’re an expert on just one side of the conflict?

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  95. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Tim

    That’s a stretch – calling me an expert! Just expressing an opinion.

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  96. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Sure, no argument regarding your status as an expert.

    But why bore us with endless opinionated comments if you are openly saying that you don’t know much about the subject matter?

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  97. flipper (3,542 comments) says:

    Miken
    If you do not understand your problem(s) then you need to take advice.
    You, Sir/madam, are one sick dude.
    To think that tax/ratepayers pay you salary …….

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  98. mikenmild (10,636 comments) says:

    Tim

    I’m not sure what you are expecting in a comment thread on a blog. If you want some expert scholarly discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, then I doubt that Kiwiblog is the place. I have opinions that I’m prepared to back up. If you choose to misinterpret my opinions, that says more about you than it does about me.

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  99. WebWrat (516 comments) says:

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146779#.Tkojb-ao_Ky

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  100. reid (15,918 comments) says:

    How do you describe Hamas’ policy towards Jews?

    Is it the Hamas that provides schools and hospitals and infrastructure and always has done since way before they became elected in Gaza. You mean that Hamas, or do you mean the other Hamas – the terrorist wing of that organisation? It’s always so hard to tell which one Israel-firsters talk about because they always conflate the two never making the distinction which of course plays right into Hamas the terrorist wing’s hands. I mean, if you were an Israel-firster, talk about a useful idiot. Crikey.

    Of course they don’t think they’re being useful idiots, they think they’re being patriotic. They point to all the mad, hard bastards in the terrorist wing, then they point to all the mothers that have lost children, the children who’ve lost brothers, sisters, the cousins who’ve lost their father, their mother not to mention the inter-generational daily represssion now getting on for 3-4 generations, and the useful idiots point to these people and say innocently and incredulously, and just look at how much they really hate our guts.

    And the rest of the world jumps right into line, lest we be anti-Semetic for not allowing the Jewish leadership (which is, critically from an anti-semitism point very distinct from and different to, the Jewish people), to keep this situation going by every few years or so bombing the fuck out of them, just in case they don’t hate Israel’s guts quite enough.

    So Tim, this is the agreed context of your question within which we analyse your question. You do agree right. That is, according to the news every night, what actually happens over there, isn’t it. You’re not arguing, I assume. How could you.

    So in this context, let’s analyse the policy of the terrorist wing of Hamas. Well, you’re quite right Tim, it’s ghastly and let’s eliminate these terrorists bastards from the face of the earth. Problem is, they’re all mixed up with the non-terrorist Palestinians so given you’re not insane like those mental Israel-firsters and aren’t going to recommend we keep doing what we do and just rile them up till they’re angry as hornets, what pray tell are your recommendations for countering, successfully mind you, these awful Hamas people from their terrorist wing?

    Which Hamas are you talking about Tim?

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  101. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Well if you are going to make non-stop self-serving and self-righteous statements, then it’s a bit rude to then claim ignorance on the topic as a whole when something comes along that suddenly shows your barbs at other posters as not so black and white.

    You don’t see me making comments in other posts if I’m not informed on the topic. But then I don’t tend to post just because I have some imaginary moral high ground I want to claim on some public forum like this.

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  102. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Reid – please show me some proof that the “terrorist wing” and “political wing” of Hamas are separate. From all the evidence I have seen they are pretty well integrated with each other.

    However, if you think the policy towards Jews is different between the two, please enlighten me.

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  103. reid (15,918 comments) says:

    please show me some proof that the “terrorist wing” and “political wing” of Hamas are separate. From all the evidence I have seen they are pretty well integrated with each other.

    Yes I’m sure you have mountains of it Tim. So you’re telling me that every teacher, nurse, doctor and aid worker of any kind employed by Hamas under the Muslim principal of helping your neighbor – whatever Muslims call it, they have a name for it, are terrorists?

    Have you looked at them Tim? Are they carrying a black ball with a burning fuse or are they carrying a medical bag, a ruler or boxes of food.

    It’s failure by Israel-firsters to make this distinction which is the root cause of the perpetuation of the very conflict they proclaim they wish to solve. In some of them it’s so bad the only evidence they ever see is what they are focusing on and they only ever focus on one thing, when they think about this issue. It’s quite evident.

    Of course I could show you photos of such people and articles of their good and peaceful work amongst the Palestinian people, just like you could show me evidence of geo-strategic white papers as to the intractability of this awful problem but you can google as well and furthermore what does it show that both of us don’t already know.

    You don’t want evidence I believe Tim. You just don’t want it because if you accept my argument which is based on human nature and you know it, it means your game is over. I don’t know why you can’t see your position weakens not strengthens Israel which you claim to support. I don’t know why you think that persisting in your brick-wall thinking is going to achieve a different result from that of the past and I don’t know why any Israel-firster wants to continue damaging the Jewish people by encouraging its leadership’s foolish and counter-productive policies which are evident on the daily news.

    Perhaps if Israel-firsters didn’t pretend every criticism of the Israeli leadership is an attack on the Jewish people hence anti-semitism in action before our eyes as they sensationally portray, some scales would fall from some eyes, but no, no sign of even that, anytime soon.

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  104. Other_Andy (2,273 comments) says:

    @mikenmild

    “I don’t think Jordan was promised by the Balfour Declaration, which merely undertook to establish a Jewish national home in Palestine”

    In 1920, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine, entrusting Great Britain with establishing a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine.

    The Balfour Declaration

    Foreign Office
    November 2nd, 1917
    Dear Lord Rothschild,
    I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
    “His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
    I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
    Yours sincerely,
    Arthur James Balfour

    Originally this homeland was to entail all of the British Mandate but in 1922, Transjordan was split from the mandate

    “How were the West Bank and East Jerusalem ‘legally’ Israel’s in 1967?”

    Both Arabs and Jews signed the Balfour Agreement. Under this agreement and the San Remo Resolution, Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem were part of Israel. The Arabs rejected the 1947 Partition Plan.Jordan occupied those territories illigally from 1948 – 1967 (See the San Remo Resolution of April 25, 1920).

    “Could you explain how 80% of Israel is ruled by Arabs?”

    Transjordan accounts for 77% of the original Jewish homeland (Israel) under the Balfour Declaration (the British Mandate of Palestine) plus Gaza.

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  105. nasska (10,632 comments) says:

    Reid

    Suppose that your next door neighbour has sworn many times to take over your house & throw your dead body out the window, suppose you were surrounded on all sides by similarly irrational neighbours.

    Do you not think that you would try to preempt their attack rather than accept their violence?

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  106. reid (15,918 comments) says:

    Same point Tim made nasska.

    As I’ve said before on this, which Tim knows well, I’m not saying it’s easy and I’m not saying it’s instant. Israel has behaved toward the Palestinians – both the terrorists and the rest of them – like a jack-booted thug for sixty years – 3 generations now. You don’t get over that in a day.

    I estimate if Israel made the choice, and it is a choice, to change, it would take twenty years for the hatred to work itself out. And that means Israel has to absorb some hits.

    It does. So what. Israel has hit Palestine for sixty years, what does it expect? The Israeli leadership got the Jewish people into this situation and the Jewish people have supported them. It has got itself, where it is. It didn’t have to be like this, but they have made it that way. So they have to expect retribution. By that I mean, bombings, 20-60 young jews killed in a nightclub bombing for example. It’ll happen on the road to this process. They have to absorb it. That’s why they don’t do it. They won’t accept that. So they won’t change. But as I say, simple fact is, they created this situation.

    Now I trust both you and Tim recognise I’m not the naive sort, security-wise and of course were I Israel undertaking this long, twenty year process, I would step very carefully and carry a fucking massive set of sticks everywhere I went, for the first little while, say the first ten years. But the thing I would eliminate from my own behaviour 100% everywhere no exceptions from day one, is any hint whatsoever of aggressive or intimidating attitude. I hope that’s quite clear that no, of course I don’t expect Israel to make it easy for the terrorists and of course I both hope and expect the terrorists to continue to be hunted and eliminated with total ruthlessness. But what I would expect is (a) no more aggression from anyone from foot soldiers to govt officials designing the legal frameworks to the politicians and (b) no more disproportionate response tactic whenever the terrorists get through, by say, shelling gaza because a few rockets caused a few casualties.

    If you don’t do both (a) and (b) it doesn’t work, you can’t just do one.

    This argument isn’t politics, as I said its human nature and its not difficult to see that what I advocate is the only way forward and always has been, that’s obvious. The simple fact is, what Israel does now doesn’t work, it hasn’t worked, it never will work, because WTF else happens to humans when they are treated by other humans as Israel does to Palestinians?

    I’m not defending that anger, I’m explaining it. That is why it is there, therefore if you take away the behaviour that causes the anger, you take away the anger. Not overnight, most people don’t get over sixty years, overnight.

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  107. nasska (10,632 comments) says:

    Reid

    Thanks for the reply. If I were in Israel’s position I doubt that I would react any different to what they do today. From the concept of a Jewish nation they have been ceaselessly under attack…one can easily understand a national paranoia.

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  108. Scott Chris (5,875 comments) says:

    Other_Andy

    You have chosen to accept the Balfour Declaration as the basis for the establishment of the configuration of a modern Jewish state. This was yet another arbitrary declaration made by an occupying power which lacked the moral authority to do any such thing, just as the Romans had done so in creating Palestine.

    However, seeing as this forms the basis of your argument, then would you say that the following provision has been fulfilled?

    *The letter added the provision of “it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

    Also, seeing as you are willing to accept the arbitrary stipulations of a self-appointed authority, why then would you reject the conditions outlined in UN resolution 242 calling on Israel to withdraw to its 1967 borders? Arguably, resolution 242 carries more weight than the Balfour Agreement, as it was ratified by many more arbitrary authorities in concert.

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  109. TimG_Oz (915 comments) says:

    Reid,

    We can talk politics for a long time. I disagree quite fundamentally with your statements regarding Israels treatment of Palestinians. A bullet point list is an injustice to my own argument but here are some examples.

    – You mention 3 generations. However up until 1967, the “Palestinians” were actually part of Jordan and Egypt. I’m not sure what you are referring to before then.
    – Up until as recently as 1987, King Hussein was actually going to take the West Bank back to be part of Jordan, so again, it’s hard to know if they are Palestinians or Jordanians.
    – There are many many examples of great relations between Jews and Arabs, that your examples of treatment are obscene.
    – Tolerance and dialog is the foundation of trust. Hamas, as I’ve mentioned, deliberately kill Arabs that interact with Jews, and refuse to negotiate with Israel.
    – Hamas has only been a political power since 2006, so the reference to hospitals etc is a bit like saying that Wellington hospital is staffed by National Party members. There are so many people in Gaza that hate Hamas (although stating so is a death sentence).

    As recently as last month Hamas stated that there can never be a Jewish state. So in the meantime, it’s hardly like that Israeli citizens can just sit by and see their bretheren murdered by rockets, shootings and kidnappings for the next 20 years.

    Anyway, this is all somewhat off topic .. the main beef of this post is that the protest movements are targeting shops here, with extremely long threads to somehow suggest they are related to the Israeli Government policies you think are so bad. More likely as to legitimise Israel completely (which they do openly), and general rabble rousal as you expect from the far left.

    Just Finally, You asked me last month about some statements by Dagan, the Mossad chief. I’m just reading a book “Man in the Shadows” by the former Mossad chief, Efraim Halevy. I think you would find it interesting. Send DPF your mailing address to pass on and I will forward it on when I am finished.

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  110. reid (15,918 comments) says:

    One understands their national paranoia but a healthy people shouldn’t live like that and they don’t need to. The paranoia is fed by their leadership and I include educators and intellectuals as well as their political leaders. Altogether they apparently weave a compelling story for the people to latch onto.

    But objectively speaking as we on the outside can be, it’s obvious they aren’t required as a people actually to be that way. Their very lives and the Jewish State itself are not under threat, actually, under any objective analysis. But their leadership portrays it as such, all the time. Why?

    That’s why I always when writing on Israel make the distinction between the Jewish people and the Israeli leadership. It’s a critical distinction.

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  111. reid (15,918 comments) says:

    Tim thanks for the book, look forward to it.

    – Hamas has only been a political power since 2006, so the reference to hospitals etc is a bit like saying that Wellington hospital is staffed by National Party members. There are so many people in Gaza that hate Hamas (although stating so is a death sentence).

    No Tim as I said above I’m talking about both the pre and post-elected Hamas organisation – you know, the one that’s been around for generations, not just since 2006. (You did know that, didn’t you.)

    And I’m sure some of the Gazans are quite scared of the Hamas terrorist wing. They are terrorists, you know. Aren’t they scum?

    As recently as last month Hamas stated that there can never be a Jewish state. So in the meantime, it’s hardly like that Israeli citizens can just sit by and see their bretheren murdered by rockets, shootings and kidnappings for the next 20 years.

    and

    – Tolerance and dialog is the foundation of trust. Hamas, as I’ve mentioned, deliberately kill Arabs that interact with Jews, and refuse to negotiate with Israel.

    So this is the terrorist wing, Tim? Yes, I know, awful aren’t they. Let’s hope the Israelis manage to kill everyone single one of the bastards, whilst not a single Palestinian who isn’t a terrorist gets in the least inconvenienced in the least, as they go about their daily business shopping for designer dresses and such in Dizengoff Street, being politely served by pretty and polite young Jewish girls, in 2050.

    – There are many many examples of great relations between Jews and Arabs, that your examples of treatment are obscene.

    I know Tim. I find the cases of such great relations particularly curious when I read about occurring in Iran. I mean, it’s wonderful but from the way Israel goes on about Iran, you wouldn’t think it happens over there at all, but it does, doesn’t it, a lot.

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  112. Elaycee (4,299 comments) says:

    Thanks to the publicity about Max Brenners being boycotted by the moron faction in Melbourne, my colleague and I went out of our way and visited one of their outlets today – and I can now recommend it!

    In our case, we chose the outlet in the Queen Victoria building – helpful locals gave us directions how to go up the lane and up to the second floor. No protesters were to be seen – apparently Friday is their usual day to try and create mayhem. But it was clear that this is a popular outlet – there were plenty of people around. Max Brenners specialises in things chocolate – drinks / cakes / sundaes / munchies etc and several come in dark, light and even white chocolate. Not good for the diet, but who cares? For anyone with a sweet tooth – this place is paradise! Make sure you check it out and remember the name – Max Brenners.

    And the staff were excellent – friendly, courteous and they certainly knew their stuff.

    Given that the protesters want us to boycott Max Brenners, I’ll make sure that I recommend it to anyone travelling to Oz. I understand that there are outlets in most cities.

    Tim_Oz – thanks for the advice. Much appreciated. :)

    @longknives – I had a second cup of hot chocolate (especially for you). It was mint chocolate in their ‘hug mug’ and it was bloody delicious!

    Check this out!!!!

    http://www.maxbrenner.com.au/menu/menu.pdf

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