Would they rather the Police shot them?

August 25th, 2011 at 4:00 pm by David Farrar

Adam Bennett in the NZ Herald reports:

Fears police would use disportionately on Maori and Pacific Islanders have been realised, say the Mana Party and the Greens as police numbers show almost 60 per cent of people tasered in the past year were of those ethnicities.

But police and their minister, Judith Collins, say the figures merely reflect the “sad fact” that Maori are over-represented in crime statistics.

Yet Keith Locke says:

“Certainly they’re being fired disproportionately at Maori. The reasons for that are something we should look into.”

What Keith should be asking, is how many Maori lives were saved by the Police being able to use a taser to disarm an armed offender, without shooting them?

Both Ms Sykes and Mr Locke pointed to the fact that Tasers had been drawn and pointed at people 499 times during the past year and fired 88 times. That, they said, suggested police were using them as “instruments of control” rather than as a last resort to be used to protect the lives of police and the public.

So now they are complaining the tasers are not being fired enough. You can’t win. Surely it is a win-win when the threat of a taser works.

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82 Responses to “Would they rather the Police shot them?”

  1. berend (1,690 comments) says:

    Why doesn’t Locke volunteer to make the statistics more favorable? I’m sure there are some police who would love to sheet him a few hundred times.

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  2. m@tt (636 comments) says:

    It would be interesting to know if tasers have been drawn and pointed more than guns have been drawn and pointed over a similar time frame but prior to the tasers introduction.

    I’m not saying that that by itself would be a good or bad thing, just curious as to whether the police are in fact more inclined to use them for control in a situation were they would not normally have drawn a gun in the past.

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  3. rouppe (983 comments) says:

    This is bullshit. The figures are:
    * Maori: 35
    * Pacific Islanders: 16
    * Europeans: 35
    * Asians: 1

    I could just as easily claim that 60% of people tasered are non-Maori

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  4. labrator (1,851 comments) says:

    Disproportionate to what? To offending rates? To lock up rates? To proportion of population? If you’re going to say something is disproportionate it is meaningless unless you say what you are comparing against.

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  5. ben (2,279 comments) says:

    F*ck politicians. Spend my money. Spin shit like this all day. F*ck them. What a RIDICULOUS argument from Locke and Sykes.

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  6. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    Q1: Why is it good to get shot by a Police Officer with a Taser?
    A: Once upon a time Police Officers only had 9mm pistols.

    Q2: What should you do when a Police officer says “Stop, and put your weapon down, or I’ll shoot”?
    A: That.

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  7. mikenmild (12,335 comments) says:

    What m@tt said. I can’t believe Police were drawing and pointing firearms 500 times per year before tasers were introduced. Although maybe they would if firearms were routinely carried as tasers are. But the point of the post is fair enough. They are being pointed at ethnicities roughly in proportion to their involvement in criminal offending.

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  8. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Dunno about the Greens but I would rather the cops shot them irrespective of the race.

    When it comes down to a choice between keeping a cop safe and shooting a criminal then there should be no grey areas, just shoot the pricks.

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  9. peterwn (3,333 comments) says:

    I think that the real issue is some people in Green Party and most of those in Mana Party have is that prospective ‘sheep’ or ‘lemming’ protesters are put off at the thought of being Tasered and this makes it harder for protest ‘leaders’ to incite violent protests.

    It is damn inconvenient when your ‘rent-a-crowd’ refuse to do what they are told leaving your carefully orchestrated protest looking stupid.

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  10. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    I wonder if there has been a corresponding reduction in assaults on Police Officers since the taser introduction?

    If so the Police should definitely point this out.

    I don’t think anyone could seriously argue that violence against police officers is better than thugs getting tasered.

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  11. mikenmild (12,335 comments) says:

    peterwn

    I don’t think we get too many violent protests in NZ, let alone people being put off protesting because they are scared of being tasered.

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  12. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    Peterwn: Interesting thought but have you ever actually seen a Green Party rally with your own eyes?

    There’s not a lot of violence against police officers. Hence, not a lot of tasering…

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  13. noskire (835 comments) says:

    Obvious solution: when the Police are alerted to an incident involving PI or Maori offenders they simply don’t respond – this will dramatically reduce that wretched “over-representation” anomaly in crime statistics.

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  14. lastmanstanding (1,310 comments) says:

    No shit Sherlock It couldnt be that Maori and PIs put themselves in the position to cause the Police to taser them!!!!!!!!!!

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  15. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    F*ck politicians. Spend my money. Spin shit like this all day. F*ck them. What a RIDICULOUS argument from Locke and Sykes.

    I don’t understand – did you expect any different from Locke and Sykes?

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  16. jaba (2,146 comments) says:

    why would anybody want to debate anything with Sykes and Locke?

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  17. GPT1 (2,021 comments) says:

    I imagine tasers are being drawn and pointed far more than firearms (I would be interested if firearms being drawn and pointed is down though). As a matter of policy I don’t have a great problem with that – the police aren’t there to give bad guys a fair fight and I see no reason why plod has to mix it up with someone acting in a violent or threatening manner just to avoid a shreiking Keith Locke press release.

    I was talking to one of the older escort cops at Court and she was saying “back in the day” when they only had a truncheon their options were limited and often they would inflict (justified) injuries during an arrest but pepper spray had cut a lot of that out. Transitionary pain or a broken limb? I know which I would chose (RRM’s answer to question 2).

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  18. slightlyrighty (2,096 comments) says:

    I happen to know someone who has been tasered 4 times, and his wife has been tasered once.

    Neither of them are Maori or PI.

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  19. Graeme Edgeler (2,972 comments) says:

    What Keith should be asking, is how many Maori lives were saved by the Police being able to use a taser to disarm an armed offender, without shooting them?

    That’s a moronic question.

    Are you seriously suggesting that had the Police not had tasers, they’d have shot (and killed) 88 people this year?

    You premise pretty much all your comments on Tasers on the basis that the alternative to tasering someone is shooting them. I can’t blame you, that was what were promised when they were introduced. But it simply isn’t true.

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  20. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    RRM

    “I don’t think anyone could seriously argue that violence against police officers is better than thugs getting tasered.”

    Have you never read anything posted by Toad?

    The Greens simply do not care about the safety of the Police, the are only interested in the welfare of the scum on the end of the tasers.

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  21. wreck1080 (3,999 comments) says:

    Call me racist if you like, but perhaps maori commit more crime per capita.

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  22. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    It may be timely to review the extent of taser use and see if it’s more (or less) than what’s appropriate.

    I doubt the police will take much notice of ethnicity when they encounter a violent manic, especially if it meant removing a hoodie to verify.

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  23. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    The race card is lame and I agree that tasers are a good weapon for police officers to have. Certainly better than having to use a gun.

    But, having said that we should still be concerned with how they are used as they are dangerous weapons that can cause serious injury and possibly death. I’ve seen instances where cops in the US have been too quick to use them simply to control someone where there was no serious threat to the public or anyone. For instance, there was a hilarious video on Youtube of a naked guy at a concert being repeatedly tasered despite the fact that he was non-threatening and heavily outnumbered.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsERNGjaafU

    The police should be properly trained to use them only when absolutely necessary.

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  24. backster (2,195 comments) says:

    Figures ten times these would not have surprised me and I am sure there have been that many occurrences when their use could be justified. I suspect there are such restrictions on use and so much reporting that has to occur subsequent to use that most cops simply don’t have access or choose to deal with the situation the way they always have. Seven cops a day were assaulted in 2010 (TV3 news item google)

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  25. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    Graeme Edgeler:

    A lot of the comments in opposition to the Tasers that I read/hear around the place, seem to be premised on the basis that Police are using the taser as an alternative to talking to people and/or asking them nicely to tip their bottle out and move along. I’ve seen precious little evidence that that is true, either.

    All I can see is that there’s a crowd screaming “Evil Corrupt Cop Bastards are using the tasers to control ordinary New Zealanders and turn the country into a Police State” and there’s another crowd saying “I love it when the Police shoot criminals, hurr hurr!” and the two are basically arguing past one another without much recourse to figures or any sensible analysis of them…

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  26. Graeme Edgeler (2,972 comments) says:

    A lot of the comments in opposition to the Tasers that I read/hear around the place, seem to be premised on the basis that Police are using the taser as an alternative to talking to people and/or asking them nicely to tip their bottle out and move along. I’ve seen precious little evidence that that is true, either.

    In the year before Tasers were introduced, the New Zealand Police did not shoot/kill 88 people. This strongly implies that tasers are being used in situation where guns were not (and would not be) used.

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  27. Longknives (4,953 comments) says:

    Are you suggesting Graham that Police are being ‘over jealous’ in the use of Tasers then? Perhaps you should go out for a ride-along with South Auckland Police one Friday night, may open your eyes a little as to the kind of boozed/drugged up dangerous violent animals they deal with on a daily basis…

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  28. Paul Williams (880 comments) says:

    Graeme said:

    Are you seriously suggesting that had the Police not had tasers, they’d have shot (and killed) 88 people this year?

    Where’s the form I need sign giving you my proxy for this forum?

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  29. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    @Graeme Edgeler This strongly implies that tasers are being used in situation where guns were not (and would not be) used.

    True Graeme, but the alternative is to fight the person and as we are not all Ninjas you loose the odd one and in doing so put wives and family at further risk if the copper has had a hiding.

    Confronting drugged and drunk loons is not a contest, it is about the police resolving the conflict with the minimum of damage to both parties.

    I was gone prior to Tazers, but I would have loved them, lots less bruising, to me especially, something I always thought important.

    Most recepients of the national grid will prefer a jolt and a wake up rather than having a baton rained down on them, lots less mess in the morning.

    And as every taser draw is recorded visually and audibly by the Taser its self, it would appear that the police are using them in the prescribed manner

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  30. Lee C (2,720 comments) says:

    I’m intrigued about how a post such as this can get past quality control. is it seriously inferring that maori (or their spokespersons Mana and the GREENS) should be grateful that MAORI getting shot as a routine method of law enforcement is a feasible alternative to tasers – and if it isn’t happening then they should be grateful?

    Please tell me this is not the case. If it were, it would be the kind of sentiment which might sit easily on the lips of a dyed-in-the-wool Afrikaans Boer pre-Mandela’s release.

    New Zealand circa 2011. Reads more like 1911 pass me another G’n’T,. . . . .damn natives deserve all they get, etc

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  31. Graeme Edgeler (2,972 comments) says:

    Are you suggesting Graham that Police are being ‘over jealous’ in the use of Tasers then?

    I am suggesting that DPF’s implication that each use of the taser is a life saved is utterly baseless.

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  32. Bandycoot (29 comments) says:

    Of course, I am sure that those tasered weren’t simply walking along minding their business, perhaps if they were not in a criminal situation the use of tasers would not be required….??

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  33. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    In the year before Tasers were introduced, the New Zealand Police did not shoot/kill 88 people. This strongly implies that tasers are being used in situation where guns were not (and would not be) used.

    Or, it could be showing that the crims are less inclined to listen to the Policeman’s instruction to halt when a Taser rather than a firearm is pointed at them.

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  34. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Lee C

    Maybe you missed the beautiful theory promoted by Deborah Coddington and DPF recently that the way to reduce the the consequences of racial profiling of Maori by police is to legalise cannabis, on the basis that this is the crime they are most often sprung for when they are pulled over just for being Maori.

    Hey, Boy! Where’s my G n T?

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  35. MT_Tinman (3,315 comments) says:

    Mr Edgeler you forget that police don’t just shoot people, they also hit people with big, hard sticks, often breaking bones in the process.

    How many people have been shot with the non-harmful (long term) Taser instead of being beaten down with batons?

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  36. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    how many Maori lives were saved by the Police being able to use a taser to disarm an armed offender, without shooting them?

    Are you saying the police faced down 499 armed offenders?

    I’d like to know how n=many of these victims were, in fact, armed.

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  37. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    I did a post today pointing out that Maori were under represented in being tazed if you compare the numbers to the prison population stats.

    Though it does seem to be improving, they’re actually not as badly underrepresented as they were.

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  38. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    slightlyrighty (1,973) Says:
    August 25th, 2011 at 4:42 pm

    I happen to know someone who has been tasered 4 times, and his wife has been tasered once.

    Neither of them are Maori or PI.

    Freinds of yours???
    Maybe you are on the wrong blog.

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  39. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Where is GOH on this subject of his people being unfairly targeted?

    I would of thought he would prefer that the cops should go in with the bayonet instead! :)

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  40. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Graeme and Luc

    But you would have to admit that if a Taser was not available there would be a very good chance that at least 4 -5 of those zapped may have been shot dead, that is never waking up, millions of column inches about the police smoking over the citizens left and right

    Surely this fact alone that 4 – 5 people are now still alive more than justifies the use of this weapon or would you be happier that they were dead so you could prove a point. ?

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  41. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    I have to agree though – the suggestion that the tazer is saving hundreds of people from being shot doesn’t stand up.

    Of course, DPF isn’t making that point. There might have been only a couple, but out of the 88 how many had very good potential to turn out that way? And how many had the potential to end with an injured police officer?

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  42. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Precisely V2.

    Shocking bunch of lowlife scum we are getting on KB these days! :) :)

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  43. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    On the plus side.
    ACC costs for beaten up policemen and women will be going down as will ACC costs for criminals.
    No wonder Nick Smith has turned ACC around. Less criminals involved in violent action on policemen.
    Savings 475 million a year. :lol:

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  44. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Changing back to the Glock method should create at least another $500,000,000 in ACC savings for injured crims in the first year followed by infinite savings as all crims cease to exist then V2.

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  45. side show bob (3,410 comments) says:

    Just imagine the commie world where the Melons were the anointed ones and they were the only ones to dispense justice via Taser.

    Shower head to big………..zap
    Not eating your mun beans……………….zap
    Smacking a wayward child…………..zap zap
    Not taking the bus………..zap
    Car motor to big………….zap zap
    Not using bio fuel………..zap
    Not worshiping Al Gore and other such lunatics……….zap zap zap zap
    Fracking……………zap zap zap
    Not paying your fair share, 100% is fair…………..zap zap zap zap
    Not hugging a tree every day………zap
    Not producing organic product despite being unprofitable………zap zap zap zap zap
    Having more then one child……………zap zap zap zap zap zap
    Being A DENIER, the ultimate in sins……………..zapping till your kick the bucket.

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  46. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    scrubone (922) Says:
    August 25th, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    I have to agree though – the suggestion that the tazer is saving hundreds of people from being shot doesn’t stand up.
    Of course, DPF isn’t making that point.

    The title of this blog post and thread is Would they rather the Police shot them? ;-)

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  47. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    You missed out “draining your dairy effluent into Gaias creek” SSB.

    They resuscitate you after you have kicked the bucket and give you another dose! :)

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  48. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    On the other hand:

    *NZ Police officers gang raped Louise Nicholas (and probably others.)
    *NZ Police “red squad” officers beat people senseless for participating in political rallies in 1981.

    So I can see why some people would feel uncomfortable about any carte blanche increase in NZ Police armament, and I don’t think those concerns are invalid..

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  49. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Paul the reasoning is seductive, and yes, I’m pleased if fewer people, often deeply but temporarily distressed, are killed by the police.

    Neither do I think the police are automatically in the wrong if they do take a life.

    But the fact is that the Taser is replacing unarmed combat skills. I saw those skills in action when I was a young man, when a man was disarmed of a knife in very quick time by a young constable. Beautiful to watch.

    My own brother made the news a few years ago when he used his karate skills to disarm a home invader, who had murdered an elderly woman earlier in the evening, and who also had a knife. The police actually asked him how he did it.

    My concern is that of the slippery slope of increasing use for increasingly minor infringements, such as a few years ago when a student got tasered in the US simply for asking John Kerry questions and insisting on answers.

    I would suggest that aiming the device 499 times is a sign of this happening. I doubt the police would have drawn a gun that many times in the absence of tasers.

    Let’s hope the police stay on top of this and are transparent about individual circumstances.

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  50. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Johnboy, SSB should never be resuscitated!

    What if they miss the second time?

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  51. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Thank Yaweh the Jewish police still use their karate skills against the Hamas thugs.

    Imagine the outrage if they actually tasered them! :)

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  52. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    Police baton very short & means constable (usually male) got to get in close and personal,with attendant risk to constable.
    Gun can be fatal and the wowsers and civil rights wallahs have a problem with that.
    Enterprising American company comes up with reasonably simple middle way.
    F@cken wowsers still not happy.
    Just shoot the f@ckers.

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  53. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Luc

    What is the problem with it being used as a deterentt? As I said above it is not a contest, the purpose of the police being there is to resolve the situation as quickly and as safely as possible.

    If people do not attack the police because they have a taser, thats good, you shouldn’t attack the police, period.

    If the police were protected by the Courts from people attacking them then perhaps they would not have to use this weapon, but our system has become so accepting of people attacking the police that there is no consequences so they do “go” more often.

    If you are going to bring the US into this, if you attack a Los Angeles cop they shoot you, no fucking about.

    Anyone even turning up to John Kerry deserved a zap

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  54. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Prime Minister John Key has said that All Blacks captain Richie McCaw should be tasered if New Zealand don’t win the Rugby World Cup next year, stuff.co.nz has reported.

    Speaking to New Zealand businessmen in Seoul, South Korea Mr Key said it’s important for the All Blacks to win the Webb Ellis Trophy.

    “I’ve tried to tell Richie McCaw that it’s very important – it’s an election year,” Key said.

    “I’ve decided that if he doesn’t win the World Cup, maybe we could consider tasering him as well.”

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/McCaw-could-be-tasered-if-ABs-lose-World-Cup–Key-jokes/tabid/415/articleID/164299/Default.aspx#ixzz1W1jpAVNt

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  55. dime (10,212 comments) says:

    “But the fact is that the Taser is replacing unarmed combat skills. ”

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

    yea its a lost art form. some 20 yr old kid cop aka superman up against a 6’4′ 120kg guy on a meth binge. he should be able to disarm him! what are they teaching these cops nowadays??

    who cares if these shitbags are getting tasered. cause lets be honest – only shit bags end up in these situations.

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  56. Brian Smaller (3,966 comments) says:

    If a crim resists in any way they should be tasered. Why risk a scuffle when taking a punch to the head can seriously injure or kill a person.

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  57. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    What a stupid title? I would have given you credit for more intelligence David..don’t tell me , you’ve never been in the cells..

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  58. Rich Prick (1,750 comments) says:

    I admit I did loose interest in this when the lefties chimed in, but no one has really addressed rouppe’s point, hint, its the second one folks:

    This is bullshit. The figures are:
    * Maori: 35
    * Pacific Islanders: 16
    * Europeans: 35
    * Asians: 1

    I could just as easily claim that 60% of people tasered are non-Maori

    Given that Maori, whose crime statistics tell us they are more inclined to commit crime per capita, and have only been lightly tasered when compared to Europeans who don’t do so much crime per capita. Perhaps the police need to taser Maoris twice for each crime, just to keep the statistics and the Treaty happy.

    Oh, and wouldn’t just be fun to taser Locke to redress the balance he complains of?

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  59. Grizz (613 comments) says:

    Tasers unfortunately do have their limitations. They are not very effective when up against an assailant with a loaded firearm. While they might have stopped the window sweeper of Waitara, they would have been useless up against Graeme Burton. They can only be fired at close range and also require a clear shot. Alas an armed P addict trying to hijack a truck on the Northwestern Motorway still requires Glock treatment, although from an experienced ADS officer. Thus police shootings will have to continue.

    However, I am all for tasers. They are an effective tool in apprehending criminals while minimising injury to themselves. Sadly the days when police could be unarmed or with only a knightstick are over. Keith lock forgets that police are not just there to stop peaceful protests but to deal with violent criminals on a daily basis so that he can sleep safely in bed at night.

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  60. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    Newsflash! Keith Locke is anti police. In other news the Greens aren’t too fond of free market capitalism either.

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  61. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    @dime, one who never fails to illustrate the (lack of) value of reductio ad absurdum!

    @rich prick

    Given that Maori, whose crime statistics tell us they are more inclined to commit crime per capita,

    The statistics tell us no such thing. They tell us Maori are more likely to land before the courts, and and there are many reasons for this, including systemic racism – of judges as well as your everyday plod. The prevalence of the western-colonised indigenous race in the lower echelons of our socio-economic tables (just like almost every other western-colonised indigenous people in the world) is another major factor.

    As rich prick should know, we all get the justice we can afford, and being a member of the master race is an added bonus.

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  62. Fentex (1,134 comments) says:

    It’s hard to argue that being tasered is preferable to being shot, but if tasers are only used in place of shooting there should be no more use of them than there was of firearms.

    Police did not shoot 88 people the year before being given tasers.

    So it is obvious that the weapons are being used not in place of firearms but as a more readily available coercion.

    Whether that’s desireable or not is a judgement call – exactly how do you want police to relate to citizenry? If you don’t look like someone police are going to bother you’re not likely to care very much about polices antagonism towards others.

    But you will if a general trend away from policing by consent turns into policing by coercion and a wider wedge is driven between some people and society. The consequent likely rise in violence and widespread reduction in social trust and general safety will affect everyone.

    The cultural and economic differences between nations that make them what they are, are not accidents, they are choices.

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  63. Fentex (1,134 comments) says:

    Oops, I got “It’s hard to argue that being tasered is preferable to being shot” around the wrong way.

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  64. Mr Nobody NZ (365 comments) says:

    Luc Said: “But the fact is that the Taser is replacing unarmed combat skills. I saw those skills in action when I was a young man, when a man was disarmed of a knife in very quick time by a young constable. Beautiful to watch.”

    Unfortunately though is that over the past 30 years there have been a huge number of changes within the police department. There use to be stringent requirements for new recruits around height and physical fitness, these have been replaced with variable fitness levels depending on age and sex and the elimination of any height restrictions. While such things as your knife disarming display may have been expected 30 years ago I doubt that you would expect a 20 something, 5 foot female cop working in South Auckland to do so and therefore they need tools which enable them to do their jobs.

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  65. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    @Luc says: “… Maori are more likely to land before the courts, and and there are many reasons for this, including systemic racism – of judges as well as your everyday plod.”

    Evidence please of this ‘systemic racism’ that involves “judges as well as your everyday plod”.

    Genuine, evidence please Luc – none of your usual propaganda or bullshit. Just evidence that would be admissible in a New Zealand Court of Law.

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  66. dime (10,212 comments) says:

    how is my example absurd luc?

    been on the front lines lately? know many cops?

    cause my brother was front line for 10 years and i know a heap of cops. not to mention the people i know on the other side of the spectrum. i think i have a pretty good understanding of what goes on out there. you lefties seem to think cops are supermen and criminals are just misunderstood.

    there are a lot of shitbags out there.

    mrnobody – youre right about the change in requirements. “female cops – the partner that isnt really a partner”

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  67. Jinky (190 comments) says:

    The statistic that everyone on here has chosen to ignore is that 55 of the 88 tasered had mental health problems. Are we all happy that sick people are being tasered by the Police? I know for a fact the Police are NOT and are looking at ways to reduce use of Tasers. Since Govts around the world closed the institutions and state hospitals dumping huge numbers out into “community care” the rate of contact between police and mentally ill has gone up 225%. Very often Police are first responders when people are acting bizarrelyin public. Given the common belief that “crazies are unpredicatable and dangerous” they get zapped more often than any other group. Not just here in NZ but USA, Australia, UK, Canada, Greece and other EU countries.

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  68. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Dime, you don’t expect Luc to care about the facts and real world examples do you? Knee jerk, mindless political correctness is all you can expect.

    I mean anyone who would trot out laughable drivel like this : “They tell us Maori are more likely to land before the courts, and and there are many reasons for this, including systemic racism – of judges as well as your everyday plod” – is not exactly playing with a full deck.

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  69. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    Jinky – How can the Police possibly know if someone is a ‘slow’ person (such as an alarmist) / a ‘normal’ person or even a genius, when the same person in front of them is violent, socially dysfunctional, drunk or a menace to society?

    Maybe you are advocating for anyone with an IQ lower than 50 to have a tattoo across their forehead that says “THICK” so when the Police confront them being violent, they will instantly know that they are not the sharpest knife in the drawer and so they shouldn’t be tazered…. and instead, they can be cuddled, given a cup of tea and a biscuit and asked if they wouldn’t mind stop being naughty….

    FFS…. what is the weather like on your planet? Are you really Luc – writing under another name?

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  70. KevinH (1,253 comments) says:

    Clearly a management issue exists considering the number of times Police have used Taser’s in the last 12 months,(499x). Taser’s were not intended as a control tool, but as a defensive tool when and where the situation required it, however the number of times they have been used indicates they are now a front line tool in confrontational situations, and are being overused.
    To fully clarify that statement would require an assessement of incident reports to determine correct parameters concerning the use of Taser’s are being followed.

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  71. Mr Nobody NZ (365 comments) says:

    Dime said: “female cops – the partner that isnt really a partner”

    I would have to disagree, I’ve meet some great female cops who depending on the scenario would be more than happy to have as a partner and most cases are as capable as their similar sized male counterparts. What we do need to recognise though is that with push for a more diverse Police Force (which I think is a good thing) we have not only obtained a force that looks and acts different but one that equally contains different strengths and weaknesses to what that older force once had.

    If you want a force that is able to take of a 18 stone offender drunk out his brain, high on something and swinging a bat then go back to the old standards and get cops like the ones who stood outnumbered 15:1 on the front lines of the Spring Bok Tour and held their ground.

    If you want a force that is made up of members that reflective of the society they work in then you need to be prepared to give them tools such as the tazer which enables them to do so safely.

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  72. dime (10,212 comments) says:

    mrnobody – just repeating what cops tell me.

    i have a great example but i better not put it.. might identify said cop. needless to say his female partner failed him badly

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  73. Mr Nobody NZ (365 comments) says:

    Dime I’ve heard the same sort of stories, however I’ve equally heard stories of male cops shouldn’t have been on the front lines due to their age, physical size, fitness etc.

    Its not the sex of the cop that matters but their ability to do the job that does.

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  74. Jinky (190 comments) says:

    No Elaycee I’m not Luc and nowhere did I speak about those with low IQ. I work every day within the mental health field and also have nearly daily contact with Police. The NZ Police force has an issue with their use of force on what they term “vulnerable groups”and are looking very closely at these stats on who is Tasered and why. No-one on here has suggested a cup of tea and a cuddle is appropriate when police are called to these situations. In my experience they are well aware of who they are dealing with and if they have a psych history. Thats’ why they call the team I work in. The Police themselves want to improve their handling of such cases and they will not be happy with the numbers quoted. Contrary to what some on here believe most Police officers I have encountered do not wish to Taser or shoot anyone (unlike some bloggers).

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  75. Weihana (4,620 comments) says:

    Elaycee (1,049) Says:
    August 26th, 2011 at 9:28 am

    @Luc says: “… Maori are more likely to land before the courts, and and there are many reasons for this, including systemic racism – of judges as well as your everyday plod.”

    Evidence please of this ‘systemic racism’ that involves “judges as well as your everyday plod”.

    —————————————————-

    Though hard to prove I think common sense would tell us that prejudice and systemic racism exists. It would seem that one is deceiving themselves if they think they will have the same reaction to a group of young Maori men congregating in a dark parking lot at night as compared to a group of young white men doing the same thing.

    Humans are hardwired to make judgments about people based on outward appearance because if a situation is dangerous and we wait to find out more information about a situation then it might be too late to act. If we see a group of young men congregating in a dark parking lot at night we immediately start analyzing everything about them, from the type of car they drive to the clothes they are wearing and even the colour of their skin. These prejudices inevitably lead to more police attention as officers are human just like the rest of us. Factor in the criminalization of drugs and inevitably more Maori will be arrested despite the fact that white people are doing it too.

    That’s not to say that Maori do not commit proportionally more crime which also fuels prejudices and stereotypes which feeds back on itself. This of course doesn’t mean they are inherently more likely to commit crime, just that they suffer from the usual factors that promote crime: poverty, organized crime (fueled by the criminilization of drugs), culture etc.

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  76. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    @Weihana -says: “though hard to prove I think common sense would tell us that prejudice and systemic racism exists.”

    For the record, I called out Luc to support his outrageous assertion: “Maori are more likely to land before the courts, and and there are many reasons for this, including systemic racism – of judges as well as your everyday plod.” And I’m still asking for the evidence proving that ‘judges as well as your everyday plod’ are guilty of systemic racism.

    I suspect that Luc’s latest claim is no different to most of his other posts here and they have a common denominator – they are stuffed to the brim with the same stuff found in nappies.

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  77. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    @Jinky – you originally said (10.00am): “The statistic that everyone on here has chosen to ignore is that 55 of the 88 tasered had mental health problems. Are we all happy that sick people are being tasered by the Police? ”

    I asked how were the Police supposed to differentiate between a person with mental health issues and someone without them? After all, an offender misbehaving is still an offender. Police do not have the luxury of time on their side to decide whether the person could be deemed to have diminished responsibility or whether they are just bad bastards.

    Interested to learn your proposed solution….

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  78. Jinky (190 comments) says:

    No Elaycee you asked if everyone with an IQ lower than 50 should be tattooed. As I said (from experience) the Police very quickly realise who has mental health problems or are aware from previous contact. All Police forces worldwide have radio codes that dispatchers use when sending officers to incidents so they usually know before they arrive at scene that the suspect has psych problems. Some researchers think this may give rise to officers being more likely to use force (crazies are dangerous etc). Prior experience of resistance or violence may also prejudice them to use of force. Other research shows that lack of respect (as perceived by the officer) may increase your chances of arrest and force being used. What has been shown to work in other countries is having mental health professionals ride along with police to such calls ie suspect with mental problems causing a disturbance.

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  79. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    @Jinky – OK, I’ll slow things down a bit…

    I presume you are referring to a ‘1M’ call – the code is used when the Police have identified an offender with a (known) mental issue. But positive identification is not always the case when an incident is reported by a member of the public, so Police often arrive on the scene of an incident having been described as a ‘1R’ (breach of the peace) but they have no knowledge whether the offender is sane or not.

    You have suggested that the Police know who they are dealing with (arriving on the scene to confront a known 1M) – perhaps this is could apply in a small town (where mental patients are known to a local cop) but not in a City. Not on the Motorway. Especially if an incident is reported by a member of the public (who doesn’t know the offender either).

    So how do you suggest the Police differentiates between a person who is a 1M and someone who isn’t? Because, according to a senior cop I know here in Auckland, they can’t. Indeed, he maintains the Taser is an excellent tool for Police – for the main reason that it keeps the cop at a (short) distance from the offender and as such it reduces the chances of them getting attacked. I haven’t seen one in action, but apparently, the Taser stops someone in their tracks.

    Can’t be a bad thing.

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  80. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Jeeze Elaycee. Dedication to a cause is a sign of left wing tendencies. Chill out. Go make love to a sheep or something! :) :)

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  81. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    @Johnboy: “…a sign of left wing tendencies…”

    Go wash your mouth out.

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  82. geo_kiwi (44 comments) says:

    Amnesty International in NZ had the taser debate a few years ago. I was a member then, and still am now. Its one of the few instances where I think they should have stayed out of the issue – I would far rather a policeman shot someone with a taser than have a body on their hands, if at all possible.

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