Anne wins, BTAC loses
September 8th, 2011 at 2:00 pm by David FarrarThe NZ Herald reports:
Protests by hundreds of schools against national standards in reading, writing and maths have been called off.
Schools are required to report on students’ learning in relation to national standards, however, many schools have refused to include the standards in their charters this year.
They faced statutory intervention if they did not.
Yesterday, the Boards Taking Action Coalition (BTAC) recommended schools who had opposed including national standards in their charter alter it to include them, but make it clear the school was forced into it, BTAC spokesman Perry Rush said.
I suspect the reason they have done this, is they realise Trevor Mallard is not going to become Minister of Education in 11 weeks time. They were hoping they could outlast Anne Tolley, but they failed.
It has been such a fuss about nothing. The national standards are a minor but useful additional reporting requirement. Schools keep all their current assessment tools. All that is required of them is to moderate those against the national standard framework and include that extra data in school reports, and provide it to the Government so the government has some comparable data.
Related posts:
- Sounds worthwhile
- NZEI still trying to supress data
- The battle for standards
- Reduce funding, don’t sack
September 8th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Time to break the teacher unions, abolish zoning, and let the funding follow the students.
cheers
David Prosser
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
‘break the teacher unions’…Ha ha, what next, outlaw political parties?
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
This was always such a stupid battle to die in a ditch over. The standards are so anodyne and harmless that they have shot their bolt over damn all.
Anne Tolley must be sharing a drink with Tony Ryall tonight now she has successfully moved education off the list of election issues just as he has done with health.
Not many education ministers manage to face down the unions so effectively. Well done, Anne. They used some nasty tricks and slurs against you.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:38 pm
Both kids are at a school where it is working well, I find the information useful and clear targets are set on the back of it. We are presented with other information as well.
The unions attitude suck, but I guess that’s a whole new thread
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
Good that Ann Tolley has been able to sort this out – even if it took longer than expected due to the total intransigence of the NZEI / PPTA.
This was an argument that was always going to be lost by the morons at the NZEI / PPTA. Epic fail.
[DPF: I have discovered to my surprise that PPTA are not in fact anti national standards. It is their members that have to deal with the crap when a kid hits secondary school and has never been told he is not at the right level of achievement]
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
The problem with implementing National Standards is that to implement them Teachers have to think. eg. to mark a written piece they have to apply 8 scores to the piece (based on criteria being matched, achieved, etc) and then once they have the 8 scores, they then need to enter those scores in e-asTTle which then gives them an overall result for that one piece/student. As the standards are new, it’s taking teachers time to adapt to the new marking systems and each test requires a different marking system, hence they are sad panda’s.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
@ David Prosser I agree but I’d add eliminate prescribed curricula and allow anyone to own and operate schools. The state should focus on standards of education and safety (outcomes) not on the processes.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:44 pm
You’re all wrong. You can see how bad National Standards really are here: Boards Taking Action – they harm children.
I’ve had my arse handed to me. I showed my lack of comprehension by asking if following government policy should be optional. I now know that if you are ideologically against government policy you have a right to make as big a fool of yourself as you like.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:44 pm
Interesting that China is now moving away from standardised testing regimes and moving towards Western-style inquiry-based learning. China acknowledges the need to nurture innovative creative citizens to grow itself beyond a low-wage copycat economy. Meanwhile, NZ, the US et al fawn over China’s existing model.
[DPF: National Standards are not standardised testing. All current assessment methods can continue to be used]
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
KiwiGreg 2:41. Yes, I agree. Each school should be an autonomous entity, run by a board. Teachers would have an employment contract with the school. So a problem with one school would not mean a national teachers strike. Thus the PPTA
and the NZEI would not be able to disrupt everyone’s education over an industrial matter. Their power would be broken. Several small schools in a rural area could combine to form a local union.
There would be a School Manager to do the day to day stuff. The principal would be freed up for more important stuff. Oh, and the ‘Teacher’s Colleges’ would be privatized. Hopefully, that would make them more like the excellent private one in Christchurch. Math ans science teachers with the appropriate degrees would get paid more. Boards would be able to fire teachers who didn’t toe the line. After all, it’s for the children; not the edgershion branch of the Labour party.
cheers
David Prosser
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 2:56 pm
@Pete George – I had a look at your link and nearly spilt my coffee… The biggest laugh was the post from ‘sophie 8 September 2011 at 10:56 am’ when she wrote: “I am on a school Board. We are definately not in favour of National Standards… ”
Ha ha – this dopey bint has just actually demonstrated why we need to raise our standard of education – she can’t even spell the word ‘definitely’.
Maybe we need to start at Trustee level…..
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Nice to see losers lose.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:03 pm
Whilst I applaude Ann in her tenacity to fight this one through, as a Board of Trustee member and a parent of three at school, I still think there is much to be done in school reporting. Plain english reports are still not plain english and the high use of e-asTTle and stanine reporting just confuses the average parent.
Vote:We accept that there is issue with specific areas of our community ie Maori, Pasifika learning yet still write reports that teachers understand but isolate this and other parts of our community.
The fact is, some people are not that bright and their failure to understand their kids reports pushes them away from our education system, therefore away from understanding and helping/encouraging their own kids.
An A,B,C and D is easy to understand. Lets get back to the basics.
Would like to hear your opinions on this.
September 8th, 2011 at 3:15 pm
Anne Tolley may think she has ‘won’, but few others would agree. Most schools are implementing the standards, slowly, reluctantly and with minimal compliance. The standards are so dubious that the government did not even try to pretend they would help student achievement or attempt to engage with education experts or teachers.
Vote:Most people understand that the standards are a cynical political exercise that is low-cost way of pretending to do something in education.
Board, representing their commnuities, who did not want the standards were ignored. Educational experts were ignored. Teachers were ignored.
Epic fail from the government.
September 8th, 2011 at 3:30 pm
milkmilo says: “Epic fail from the government”
Haha – the Epic Fail here certainly rests with the morons who tried to avoid implementing a government policy only to be spanked. Tolley most certainly won this battle – the PPTA and the NZEI have been exposed as total dog tucker.
If people don’t like the idea of National Standards, then they should vote for someone else, because National had this in their manifesto. Oh oh – they’ve already tried that and the voters have decided once already.
I love the sound of a lefty squealing…. music to my ears.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:32 pm
Anne Tolley through patience and strong will has faced down the Unions. I would have rounded up the Leadership of the Teachers Unions ages ago stripped them of NZ Citizenship and deported them to North Korea or worse. But Anne has been patient and focused and it looks like she has won. By chance I saw her a couple of months ago and congratulated her.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:37 pm
I showed my lack of comprehension by asking if following government policy should be optional.
Actually, you showed your complete lack of comprehension by declaring school boards of trustees to be public servants. But, I guess someone with a complete lack of comprehension could easily get confused about something like that.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:40 pm
Anne Tolley through patience and strong will has faced down the Unions.
Speaking of a complete lack of comprehension…
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
“[DPF: I have discovered to my surprise that PPTA are not in fact anti national standards. It is their members that have to deal with the crap when a kid hits secondary school and has never been told he is not at the right level of achievement]”
Thanks DPF – I am pleasantly surprised. And slightly encouraged that there may be hope after all….
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:42 pm
This was an argument that was always going to be lost by the morons at the NZEI / PPTA. Epic fail.
And another one!
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:42 pm
Who’s comprehension? I didn’t declare anything about school boards. Who implements NS?
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:54 pm
Psycho Milt
Parents & employers can definitely comprehend that the squealing of the cloth capped teachers’ union officials means that the pedants are hurting. They also instinctively comprehend that if something hurts the teachers’ unions it will be good for the children.
This is the legacy of the unions being prepared to die in the ditch rather than having their performance held up for scrutiny the same way as every other professional or wage earner accepts as the employer’s right.
Tolley’s on a roll…let’s hope she keeps her foot on the socialists’ throats.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
@nasska – well said!
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Who’s comprehension? I didn’t declare anything about school boards.
In a post about school boards of trustees not wanting to implement national standards, you wrote the issue was “whether public servants should have the right to refuse to follow government policy.” Perhaps you were merely irrelevant rather than uncomprehending?
…the cloth capped teachers’ union officials…
And another one! Is this International Dim Bulbs’ Day or something?
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
This is fantastic news. Well done Anne!
“Time to break the teacher unions”
The entire Marxist/Class based adverserial Union system needs to go. We need to return to the Guild system.
Guild system: The kind of economic order envisaged by the early distributist thinkers would involve the return to some sort of guild system. The present existence of labor unions does not constitute a realization of this facet of distributist economic order, as labour unions are organized along class lines to promote class interests and frequently class struggle, whereas Guilds are mixed class syndicates composed of both employers and employees cooperating for mutual benefit, which promotes class collaboration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Maybe the teachers unions realized that if they continue to fight this modest change into the election they will risk giving the Government a mandate to smash them once and for all with parents cheering in the background. Anne Tolley has chosen a middle path and they should be thankful she has (unfortunately). I am in the school of smashing them, partly because I generally loathe teachers (with exceptions).
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
I generally admire teachers (with exceptions) but the behaviour of a number of them (particularly the militant unionists) in relation to NS has, I think, tarnished their profession.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
[DPF: I have discovered to my surprise that PPTA are not in fact anti national standards. It is their members that have to deal with the crap when a kid hits secondary school and has never been told he is not at the right level of achievement]
The PPTA’s position on national standards is:
Vote:‘The government’s intent is to implement National Standards in New Zealand primary schools despite a lack of evidence to show the policy will achieve anything positive. This is a misguided approach to a manufactured “crisis” with disastrous effects on students and teachers.
The policy is driven by ideology. Research evidence shows that National Standards will not lead to improved outcomes for students. They will simply label individual students as failures, and may lead to league tables that wrongly label schools as failures. Many countries that have gone down this route in the past are now turning away from it. Refusing to recognise the weight of local and international evidence against such policies is most unwise.’
September 8th, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Board, representing their commnuities, who did not want the standards were ignored. Educational experts were ignored. Teachers were ignored.
Epic fail from the government.
Hang about… Isnt the point of national standards to give parents a clearer idea of where their kids are at? and if so, was only intended to identify who needed what help?
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Maybe the teachers unions realized that if they continue to fight…
Slow learner, huh? Perhaps that’s why you hate teachers so much? Bad memories?
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:26 pm
Anne wins, BTAC loses – Mwahahahahahahaha.
Love it.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
mikenmild
This debate can go all over the place but can we agree that the reason the concept of National Standards saw the light of day lay in the inability of parents to get information on their childrens’ progress? Reports & even parent/teacher discussions were couched in vague, waffly feelgood platitudes designed to mask a child’s achievements or lack of them. The teachers’ ability & efforts were similarly hidden.
Whether National Standards is the ultimate answer is well beyond me but their genesis lies in the teachers’ attitudes & arrogance.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
ciaron
Vote:That’s the selling line. Unfortunately that’s not what these national standards will do. They have always been more for electoral appeal (on the cheap) rather than actually designed to improve educational performance.
September 8th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
NAnney State knows best!
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
milkmilo – you can trot out all the propaganda you like from your beloved PPTA, but the reality is that, if schools want state funding, they need to implement the policies as determined by the government of the day.
There is no disinfectant quite as good as sunlight and parents deserve the transparency that they will get from National Standards in order to measure how kids are doing and how they compare with other schools.
And an ability to assess the capabilities of teachers.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 6:07 pm
I do not have especially bad memories of teachers, though I thought most of them are losers. Still do. What I cannot stand is a teacher getting into a leadership position (Chairperson, JP etc) and then start bossing people about as if they know best and everyone else is a naughty child.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 6:35 pm
Pete George said…
You can see how bad National Standards really are here
Pete George, didn’t you say that the society have a say in whatever we do? Be it the politicians doing it on behalf of some interest group or perhaps the wish of the majority? What’s the fuss? After all we elect them to do whatever they like, even if we protest till the day of the second coming of Jesus Christ. Isn’t that a contradiction again? Your favorite quote to me every time I raised about the issue of rights, you say, that the society decides because rights is a human construct and it is subjective. It can be changed according to the wish of the majority. As I said, what’s the fuss here? The Govt just delivered exactly what you advocated for in their education policy. I say, private the whole education system and let free people choose what their kids learn or which school they enroll them in. The market (based on the objective definition of rights) then decides who’s going to fail and who’s going to succeed in education. Various schools will compete for top performing teachers where they will be given a salary in accordance with their salary.
Go on Pete George, keep moaning (in a contradicting way). I do moan about government, but my reason is different from yours. I moan because they want to nanny me rather than me making my own decision be it bad or good in running my affairs.
Your views is as contradictint as Margaret Mutu’s ranting about white immigrant. She is 1/2 white but at the same time she doesn’t like whites. If she doesn’t like whites then she should of course chop herself into 2 half with a machete because part of her is white. But she won’t do that, will she?
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 6:46 pm
should be:
they will be given a salary in accordance with their performance and ability
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
The idea of national standards, parents knowing whether schools are performing well or not, is sound. And should be given a go.
The practice may not always live up to the intention, however:
Vote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8744510/Teachers-falsifying-pupils-marks-to-inflate-school-results.html
September 8th, 2011 at 8:25 pm
Mary Rose
Well, everyone agrees with those sentiments. Trouble is, the national standards do nothing to assist achieving those aims.
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 10:05 pm
milkmilo says: “Trouble is, the national standards do nothing to assist achieving those aims.”
Not true – the real problem is that they have not been implemented due to the ideological intransigence of the teacher unions.
But the good news is that we’ll now have the chance to find out over the next three years or so….
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 10:37 pm
It would seem, from his contributions here, the the government department that has paid mikenmild to clock up 2369 posts in a matter of months is the Ministry of Education…
Vote:September 8th, 2011 at 10:54 pm
“The national standards are a minor but useful additional reporting requirement.”
Nonsense. At the end of the year it’ll be interesting to see how many Year 1-8 students across the country will have been labelled “below” standard in either reading, writing or mathematics. You can bet that a greater proportion of these students will be from lower decile schools. I wonder what having “below” standard slapped on a report will do for the self-esteem and motivation of students. What extra resources will be provided to schools to support these students?
After 40 weeks at school, at the end of Year 1, telling a child about to turn six that they’re below standard because they haven’t quite reached green level on the NZ Ministry of Education’s reading scheme is both unethical and cruel.
Have any of you actually read the National Standards? They’re complete waffle and jargon ridden, and assume that all students will learn at an identical rate.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 3:15 am
and the current waffle is transparent eh Sam…
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 6:53 am
I wonder what having “below” standard slapped on a report will do for the self-esteem and motivation of students.
Probably no worse than getting to the real world and having your first employer tell you that you’re about as intelligent as a nail, with as much get up and go as an asthmatic ant with some heavy shopping. Soul destroying stuff, I know; but the kid needed to hear the truth.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 7:44 am
You could take it though ciaron, and you’re that much stronger now.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 7:50 am
Red Sam said “After 40 weeks at school, at the end of Year 1, telling a child about to turn six that they’re below standard because they haven’t quite reached green level on the NZ Ministry of Education’s reading scheme is both unethical and cruel.”
More unethical and cruel is to NOT tell the parents that a student hasn’t reached the required level. My daughter was on the red reading level at the end of a full year of school, level 4 when she should have been around levels 10-14. Her teacher did not tell me what the expected level was, in fact it was all kept very secret. I even raised concerns and asked, and was told “she’s doing fine”. Year after year I raised concerns, I didn’t know what the expected levels were, the teachers refused to tell me but all said she was “doing fine”. Year after year I asked whether I should have her tested for anything and they all told me NO, “she’s doing fine”. (“Doing fine” must be the phrase they learn in Teachers’ College when they want to avoid being honest.)
I did not know this at the time, but in Year 4 my daughter knew she “was failing”. She couldn’t do the work so didn’t make any effort.
In Year 5, after months and months of saving I paid $600 for an educational psychologist to tell me she has dyslexia, and that she was 4 years behind in writing. When I presented the report to her school they finally started giving her the support she had needed since Year 1. I pay $45 per week (which as a single (working) parent I really can’t afford) for a dyslexia tutor to help her with her writing. If her teachers had been honest with me from the beginning I could have put this support in place years earlier.
Red Sam also said “I wonder what having “below” standard slapped on a report will do for the self-esteem and motivation of students.” My daughter’s self-esteem and motivation have skyrocketed. Before Year 5 she had labelled herself as dumb. She knew that she was behind the rest of the kids. I didn’t know because the school didn’t tell me, and it didn’t occur to my daughter to tell me, she just labelled herself dumb and didn’t bother trying – the most effort she put into school was to curl her arm around her book so that her teacher couldn’t see that she was doing nothing. Now she knows that her brain works a bit differently to most other kids, she knows she will always find writing harder than other people do, and she knows that because of this she has to work as hard as she can. She will probably never meet the standards in writing, but she is now not dropping further and further behind each year. Now that we know how her brain works we have tried to find things that complement her style of learning so that she can experience success – she is top of her year level in chess and in orienteering.
Vote:I know many other parents whose children go to a number of different schools with similar stories. This is why we need National Standards.
September 9th, 2011 at 8:01 am
Inventory2 – are you similarly impressed to see how your tax dollars are being spent? When you consider how the rest of the country has to get off its butt, work hard and earn a dollar, its criminal.
Time for a weed out of some ‘public servants’ I think…..
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 8:03 am
Hollyfield
Vote:That is a heart-wrenching story. Unfortunately, the national standards as introduced will do nothing to assist parent in your situation. The failure of your daughters’ teachers would not have been exposed any better by the reporting against the standards. Good quality interaction between parents and teachers provides the best opportunities to pick up issues and address them.
I too have had difficulties with teachers, not to the extent you have had, and I’d say that where a parent has any concerns, he or she needs to push as much as possible to be satisfied that what is going on is being addressed.
September 9th, 2011 at 8:17 am
Actually mikenmild, school reports now say what the expected level is, so we can see how our child is doing against the expected level. This was sorely missing before National Standards.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 8:26 am
Mikenmild
NS will show a teachers performance.
Vote:Teachers who consistently have poor performing pupils will be found out.
We blame the coach when a team performs poorly yet the NZ
September 9th, 2011 at 8:32 am
mikenmild
…”The failure of your daughters’ teachers would not have been exposed any better by the reporting against the standards”…
In ‘Hollyfield’s’ case all she needed was to have her suspicions confirmed that her daughter’s reading & writing levels were not up to scratch & she was prepared to get whatever extra aid required. It would have been cheaper & probably of more assistance in the first year as opposed to the fourth.
Enlighten us please…..would or would not a failure to meet national standards, in this instance, have given this parent better warning than waffly, lying assurances that “she is doing fine”?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 8:32 am
Mikenmild
NS will show a teachers performance.
Vote:Teachers who consistently have poor performing pupils will be found out.
We blame the coach when a team performs poorly yet the NZ system accepts pupils failure and promotes the coach
September 9th, 2011 at 8:47 am
@hollyfield – Its very disappointing you were told “she is doing fine” when clearly that wasn’t the case.
In fact, its unforgivable.
National Standards are well overdue as all parents have the absolute right to know how their kids are doing / how they compare with their peers etc.
All parents deserve the unexpurgated version rather than some crap fed to us based on ideology rather than what is in the best interests of the child.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:00 am
mikenmild
You are letting down your multitude of fans with your uncharacteristic lack of comment. Hollyfield, Elaycee, myself & doubtlessly a few others are waiting breathlessly for you to show us why national standards as opposed to the teacher’s lies would not have confirmed this parent’s suspicions earlier.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:01 am
Nasska said
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mikenmild
…”The failure of your daughters’ teachers would not have been exposed any better by the reporting against the standards”…
In ‘Hollyfield’s’ case all she needed was to have her suspicions confirmed that her daughter’s reading & writing levels were not up to scratch & she was prepared to get whatever extra aid required. It would have been cheaper & probably of more assistance in the first year as opposed to the fourth.
Enlighten us please…..would or would not a failure to meet national standards, in this instance, have given this parent better warning than waffly, lying assurances that “she is doing fine”?
~~~~~~~~~~
Presumably the teacher saying “she is doing fine” would have been reflected in the national standards report to the parent. It’s the same person making the same “teacher judgement”.
Bad writing skills are sometimes associated with giftedness in mathematics (as indicated by the later chess playing ability).
Vote:(see: http://www.maths.otago.ac.nz/home/schools/gifted_children/gifted_children.php )
Perhaps the maths ability meant the kids low in *both* literacy and numeracy got all the attention – schools are really scared about league tables and having too many kids score at “well below standard”.
September 9th, 2011 at 9:19 am
Whether it’s done via NS or not, parents have a right to know how their children are doing at school compared to other children. That’s fundamental.
The only way for parents and children to know if they need to improve, to catch up – or need alternative help – is to tell them. It simply comes down to the way it’s done. Obviously you don’t say “you’re dumb, get your shit together”.
Encouraging kids to catch up with others can be very effective, like “if you learn this with me you will soon be able to read like your older brother/sister”.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:21 am
mpledger
Thank you for your comment although it raises as many questions as it answers. What ‘we’ are looking for is an honest assessment of a child’s abilities & failures. To the best of my knowledge we are not yet on a witch hunt against individual teachers nor the schools they teach at. There are many things a parent can do to assist their child but they are contingent on the parent knowing what the hell is going on.
This is the gist of the latter part of this thread…..via national standards or water torture the parents want to know what is going on with their child’s education.
After reading your comment I am left with the thought that many teachers couldn’t give a stuff about the truth & will say whatever is expedient or follows the union mantra. Parents have every right to be very worried.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:22 am
Elaycee (1,197) Says:
National Standards are well overdue as all parents have the absolute right to know how their kids are doing / how they compare with their peers etc.
All parents deserve the unexpurgated version rather than some crap fed to us based on ideology rather than what is in the best interests of the child.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
National standards don’t compare kids to their peers, they compare kids to a set of standards. The comparison to the standard is a judgement made by the teacher. If you couldn’t trust the judgement of your child’s teacher before than why would you expect any better now?
This may have been all about reporting in plain language to parents but this data is going to go to a more powerful lobby than parents – first it’s going to the ministry who will set targets and then it will get into the media in the form of league tables. Which master are teachers going to serve and in what order? Especially if funding depends on it.
In the USA there has been rampent teacher and administrator cheating and it looks like there is some evidence for it in England as well.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:27 am
In the USA there has been rampent teacher and administrator cheating and it looks like there is some evidence for it in England as well.
If NZ teachers approached this with the right attitude – the good of the kids comes first, followed by the rights of the parents – then that won’t happen here, will it.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:37 am
I am a member of a school board of trustees that has looked hard at national standards and implemented them in accordance with the ministry requirements, we are not one of the many schools protesting about the process in part because the National Government does have a mandate and not to implement it would to some extent be not accepting a democratic process. In fact it did not require much change to what the school was already doing in terms of plain language reporting and communication with parents, testing using ASTle and Star testing methodology. All sounds good in theory. I am a keen supporter of the concept of National Standards as it gives parents a measure of how well their school is performing compared to other schools and that their children are getting a fair go. Or does it?
The national standards being implemented by the Tolley regime are a bit of a myth. Schools get to choose their own methods of testing and there is no uniform testing regime. As a school we can choose between 4 different methodologies. The next step is that teachers can then moderate the results depending on their interaction with and assessment of the child. Again sounds great but in reality it means that there is nothing national or standard about the procedures from school to school.
The last and most irritating part to national standards is that there is no meaningful moderation process to ensure that there is some form of uniformity in the standards used from one school to the next.
In fact one of the intermediate schools in the area I live takes students from 6 different primaries. They have found substantive differences in the implementation of standards between those schools so unsurprisingly are one of the schools refusing to comply with the Ministry Directive of Standards
So to all of the Tolley apologists whilst the concept has some real merit it simply wont have any meaningful context until it is a true standard with proper national moderation processes. Tolley has charged ahead with this despite advice to test and refine it before it went ahead on a national basis. It is now simply smoke and mirrors and whilst some schools are making the best of it and outwardly giving parents the impression of a good and workable “National Standards”process the reality is that the next school is quite probably reporting a completely different interpretation of these so called standards.
The next part that is concerning is for those kids that simply cannot get to the so called standards. They are going to have the fact that they are failing drummed into them twice a year every year for the better part of their school life. Tolley has never delivered a satisfactory response to this issue other than to say they can show some progress. That does not help the kids self esteem and is simply the words from a minister who is well out of her depth and for all appearances is not the greatest listener on the planet
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:42 am
First of all we cannot make comparisons with other countries as our schools are using the same NZ normed tests they have always used with no public controversy at all.
National Standards are not a national testing system which means there will be judgment exercised but that’s why we pay professionals a salary. Much of education depends on the teacher’s professional jusgment which is why we have to attract our brightest and best into teaching.
If NZEI want flawlessly consistent robots we could put all schools on-line and just pay supervisors to keep the kids under control as they work at their computers.
Second, National Standards are a very small, tentative step towards the biggest scandal of our public education system – the failure to teach EVERY child to read and write after EIGHT years of public funded education. This is partly what leads to early school failure, drop-outs and juvenile and adult problems like crime, substance abuse, teenage pregnancies, benefit dependency etc etc.
I would pay primary schools a generous incentive payment for every at-risk child they bring up to chronological age in literacy and numeracy before they leave primary school. Easy to identify which kids from ample current data and I am sure principals and boards would fall over themselves to boost their funding by $1000′s.
Vote:Then, when they have learned how to do it, we could start to expect that kids will enter secondary school fully prepared.
September 9th, 2011 at 9:44 am
So to all of the Tolley apologists whilst the concept has some real merit it simply wont have any meaningful context until it is a true standard with proper national moderation processes.
Mark, you’re saying that schools can make their own decisions about how they implement NS – one strong criticism I have heard about NS is that they impose a system on Boards and school. Wouldn’t more standardisation (ie national) make it harder to get schools to accept and implement NS?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:46 am
Bloody hell Mike, you’re a presumptuous prick. The lad in question was in fact an apprentice taken on in 2006. from your contribution to KB I can only surmise that all of your employers have considered you dumber than a sack of hammers
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:47 am
@mpledger says: “National standards don’t compare kids to their peers, they compare kids to a set of standards. The comparison to the standard is a judgement made by the teacher”.
Surely, if everyone is measured against the same standards, then a peer comparison is easy.
And then “If you couldn’t trust the judgement of your child’s teacher before than why would you expect any better now?”"
Probably because there will be transparency and the teacher will no longer be able to say “shes doing fine” when clearly thats not the case.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 9:55 am
nasska (1,550) Says:
After reading your comment I am left with the thought that many teachers couldn’t give a stuff about the truth & will say whatever is expedient or follows the union mantra. Parents have every right to be very worried.
~~~~~~~~~
That’s not the impression I intended to give.
Teachers are only human, they make judgements based on their knowledge and experience. Sometimes they’ll get it wrong.
When they have to serve many masters then they’ll aim to please the master who squeaks the loudest. That may cloud their judgement but that’s part of being human – humans are not great at being objective – that why where objectivity is needed, the *process* has to be built around it. (I’ve worked in clinical trials where the trials are designed to eliminate subjective views as much as possible and this is in a profession where its professionals are accorded the highest levels of trust for their professional abilities.)
The national standards process pretty much insures that there is little reward for being objective.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:05 am
Elaycee (1,198) Says:
@mpledger says: “National standards don’t compare kids to their peers, they compare kids to a set of standards. The comparison to the standard is a judgement made by the teacher”.
Surely, if everyone is measured against the same standards, then a peer comparison is easy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe within the class where all the kids do the same test and get evaluated by the same teacher. But what say one kid got 14 out of 20 and so is “at standard” and another kid got 15 out of 20 and so is “above standard”. Are the kids really that different? And would your interpretation change if you knew the first kid came to school without breakfast after being kept awake all night because his parents were partying.
But what about another school that does a different test? Where the teacher taught the material on the test the day before? Are the kids at both schools comparable?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:11 am
It is breathtaking hypocrisy that there are those who comment on NS as “ideology” on the basis of what objective measurement may do to children’s “self esteem’.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:21 am
mpledger
Your comments are digging the teachers further into the hole they have crafted for themselves. By their own terminology they are professionals. If they were assembly line workers we would accept some mistakes but we are discussing people who are well educated & supposedly chosen for their professional standards.
We accept that they are humans & not infallible but what we are extremely reluctant to put up with is being fobbed off because they know best when clearly they don’t. Instances such as “Hollyfield” above outlined are inexcusable & demonstrate arrogance & a willingness to lie to a parent. I would add that most parents realise that their children only get one opportunity to learn to read & write & this will effect their day to day lives for the next six or seven decades.
Red herrings such as who gets breakfast are socialist claptrap. Nature is cruel…the best prepared will be in a winning position. Its the parents job to offer up a child ready to learn but it is the teacher’s job to educate them. Teachers are not supposed to be social workers who are to be found under Government Departments in the front of the telephone directory.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:32 am
@mpledger – no system is perfect. But a National Standards programme is a quantum leap from the current scenario where a teacher can obfuscate and even tell lies to a parent about the progress their child is making in school. There is no disinfectant quite as good as daylight and transparency and NS will deliver that.
Measurement is a key to making progress. Now that Minister Tolley has reminded the unions that they (the unions) do not determine education policy and that it is actually determined by the government of the day, we can expect to see the results for ourselves.
The same transparency needs to be equally applied across Trustees – after all, they are also there to implement the policies of government. Especially if they have an expectation that they will receive taxpayer funding.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:43 am
Elaycee
The resident ‘know it all’ seems to have gone to ground just when we needed the enlightenment he could have provided.
Perhaps if you see him on another part of the blogosphere you could bring this thread to his attention.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:45 am
Elaycee – I agree about who should determine policy in a democracy, I had a lot of debate about that yesterday elsewhere.
One repeated argument was that refusal to implement this policy is justified because National Standards damages children.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:47 am
Mark, regarding your concerns about children’s self-esteem, have a read of my comment at 7.50am. Before National Standards, my daughter had labelled herself dumb, she knew she was the slowest in the class. (I didn’t know, because the teachers wouldn’t tell me.) Now she (we) understand that she has difficulties and there’s a reason for it, her self-esteem and motivation have ***skyrocketed***. A few years ago she made no effort because she couldn’t do the work so didn’t do the work. Now she’s a completely different kid who tries hard in class, and ***enjoys*** school. (She’s still not achieving to the expected level in writing and probably never will, but she has many strengths and now does ***her*** best.) She scored 96% in her Science Fair project last year – only losing marks for her very brief logbook. The year before, she wouldn’t have even bothered trying. This year she scored 79% for her prepared speech (being a speech she wasn’t graded on the spelling, use of capitals, full stops etc!) Two years ago she wouldn’t have bothered even trying to write a speech.
Thanks to National Standards parents now have reports that tell us where are kids are performing compared to the expected level, and this allows us to put in place support for kids who need it. If the schools don’t tell us our children are struggling, we are not able to give them the support they need.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:54 am
@mpledger says: “Maybe within the class where all the kids do the same test and get evaluated by the same teacher.”
If teachers at the same school were following the same guidelines, then the opportunity to ‘interpret’ achievements (and to tell porkies to parents), will be limited. Very limited. There is no better disinfectant than transparency.
FFS – we are talking about kids learning the basics – reading, writing and mathematics. Measurement and comparisons across pupils at the same school will only be difficult if the teachers (and their unions) wanted it to be obstructive…. and we have witnessed that tactic already. Its time they got on with implementing education policies set in place by the government of the day and to leave politics to the politicians.
The can be no doubt that teachers and their unions ARE the problem. One look at the appalling literacy stats (they have been repeated here several times so I won’t link again) will confirm that. Its no co-incidence that people who are successful in the commercial world have no ‘problem’ being measured and remunerated accordingly. The cream will rise to the top in any commercial organisation and high achievers are paid the highest and their achievements are celebrated. And thats the way it should be – we should applaud excellence rather than commend everyone because they ‘participated’.
And thats the key – in the case of the teacher unions / the teachers, there has been a ‘win at all cost’ attitude to maintaining pay parity in the education sector. The unions hate the idea that an outstanding teacher should be remunerated at a rate higher than the moron teacher who told Hollyfield’s parent, outright lies.
Therein lies the parallel problem.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 10:57 am
@Hollyfield, your case demonstrates clearly that once a child is identified as having needs (sorry for the cumbersome term), then performance against NS can be gauged in light of this, and progress from time A to time B can still be assesd and progress praised. Win win from what I can see.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:03 am
@nasska – maybe milkmilo’s supervisor has been doing an audit on the department’s computers and discovered that MM spends all day pushing the red message at Kiwiblog! Maybe MM has been summoned to a ‘please explain’ meeting – but then again, I’m not sure that wasting time on the taxpayer dime is an offence in the Public sector these days.
I won’t be looking for him at the game tonight either – I’ll be too busy with customers and colleagues watching the ABs deal to Tonga – canapes in one hand and a Heineken in the other.
And not a unionist to be seen!
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:16 am
Sorry you missed me Elaycee, I’ve been too busy decorating my work station to pay much attention.
I’ll be down at the Wellington fan zone this afternoon and evening – it’s looking pretty good.
Here’s some expectations from the national standards:
Percentage of children who are expected to be at or above the national standards:
Reading Maths
After 1 year 50% 80%
Year 4 60% 70%
Year 8 60% 35%
Do you really want to be telling half of our 6-year-olds that they are ‘below standard’ in reading?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:23 am
milkmilo says: “Here’s some expectations from the national standards”….
Living proof that the past policies have failed our kids, wouldn’t you think?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:25 am
BeaB wrote:
Second, National Standards are a very small, tentative step towards the biggest scandal of our public education system – the failure to teach EVERY child to read and write after EIGHT years of public funded education. This is partly what leads to early school failure, drop-outs and juvenile and adult problems like crime, substance abuse, teenage pregnancies, benefit dependency etc etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vote:Not everyone thinks national standards will help with this problem. Kids who don’t fit into the system e.g. autistic kids, Maori kids (according to Maori), will just hear negative messages earlier, become disaffected earlier and play truant earlier.
September 9th, 2011 at 11:26 am
If you set standard that are ‘aspirational’, you automatically define a huge number of kids as failures. But don’t just rely on me, have a look at what some of the educational experts have had to say about this.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:28 am
Elaycee
A healthy dose of real life….sounds good, enjoy yourself.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:28 am
mm – I doubt that 6 year olds that are “below standard” in reading will understand the term.
They don’t need to be told they are below standard, they need help raising their standard. And if they figure out (as kids do) that they are getting extra help to catch up so be it, you can’t pretend there is no problem or no necessity for extra help.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:30 am
milkmilo says: “If you set standard that are ‘aspirational’, you automatically define a huge number of kids as failures”
Whaaaat?
Since when should the basic standard of being able to leave school with an ability to read, write and complete basic mathematics, be considered “aspirational?”
Therein lies another problem – if you aim to be mediocre, you’ll succeed every time.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:33 am
@nasska – ta. We’ve been looking forward to this for many months – a reward for a lot of hard slog and long hours.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:36 am
And we cant have failures can we Mike?
Vote:Surely the purpose of education is to ensure that children are “prepared” for the real world, not sheltered from its realities.
September 9th, 2011 at 11:36 am
One of the worst things to do is to try and fool kids into thinking they are all equally as good at anything, they know they have different abilities from an early age – and strive to match abilities, that’s a part of natural learning.
This is a skill I still use – if I see someone doing something I can’t do and want to be able to do I don’t think I’m below standard, I do what I can to learn it. And if I can’t learn it then I accept that I’m “below standard” in some things.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:40 am
If a kid is falling behind the expected standards of reading, writing & maths for a given age then by making that info available to the parents you are allowing remedial action to be taken when it can do the most good. Having people in college uniforms who find “Janet & John” level books a challenge is bad for them & bad for society.
There may be a chance of creating failures at a young age but it is only a taste of what’s to come when they attempt later to enter the workforce unable to read, write or do basic mathematics.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:41 am
Elaysee said
The can be no doubt that teachers and their unions ARE the problem. One look at the appalling literacy stats (they have been repeated here several times so I won’t link again) will confirm that. Its no co-incidence that people who are successful in the commercial world have no ‘problem’ being measured and remunerated accordingly. The cream will rise to the top in any commercial organisation and high achievers are paid the highest and their achievements are celebrated. And thats the way it should be – we should applaud excellence rather than commend everyone because they ‘participated’.
Its no co-incidence that people who are successful in the commercial world have no ‘problem’ being measured and remunerated accordingly. The cream will rise to the top in any commercial organisation and high achievers are paid the highest and their achievements are celebrated. And thats the way it should be – we should applaud excellence rather than commend everyone because they ‘participated’.
~~~~~~~~~
New Zealand kid’s literacy is so appalling that we are amongst the best at literacy in the world.
You do realise that your second paragraph is just going to accentuate the perverse incentives that makes people be rewarded for being slippery with the truth. If you are rewarded for reporting that your kids are at or above standard than some teachers will report their kids are at or above standard when it’s not so.
The American political system is a highly selective system but you don’t get the best peson to be president that way – George W Bush must be the extreme example – just because something rises it doesn’t means it’s cream.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:44 am
This is why we have audits – measure and manage
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:45 am
One of the main problems with the standards is that they have been set at unrealistic levels, so that in many cases larghe numbers of kids will fail to meet them.
Below are extracts from an open letter to Anne Tolley from four senior education academics from Auckland, Waikato and Otago universities:
We are deeply committed to helping primary teachers to promote high quality learning for all of their students. Assessment plays a key role in teachers’ work – it gives them vital information about the results of their work with the whole class and with individual children, helps them to give appropriate help and guidance to all children, and forms the basis for effective reporting to parents and school leaders.
…we can see considerable merit in the idea of clearly identifying stages in the development of children’s knowledge and skills, assessing each child’s progress and level of achievement, and reporting that progress and achievement in accurate and understandable ways to parents.
…the very brief time frame allowed for the development of the standards and associated guidelines and requirements has resulted in fundamental flaws.
…the flaws in the new system are so serious that full implementation of the intended National Standards system over the next three years is unlikely to be successful. It will not achieve intended goals and is likely to lead to dangerous side effects.
…the intended National Standards system wrongly assumes that children are failing if they do not meet the standard for their age. This will lead to the repeated labelling of many young children as failures and will be self-fulfilling because it will damage children’s self-esteem and turn them off learning and achieving in literacy and numeracy and other curricula areas.
…the international record on the effects of national testing is damning.
…reporting of results at each year level will distort and impoverish the culture of teaching and learning and assessment within schools. It will undermine the new curriculum and lead to a narrower, less interesting form of primary education for New Zealand children. It will also result in inappropriate judgements about the quality of schools and teachers.
…we advise further development work is necessary before all schools are asked to implement National Standards
The academics recommended:
Vote:– shifting the focus to measuring and reporting children’s progress against standards
– developing ways to achieve high consistency in the interpretation and application of standards
– protocols for the use of data to prevent adverse effects of reporting such data on teaching and learning
– trying out standards in a sample of schools
September 9th, 2011 at 11:49 am
@mpledger says: “You do realise that your second paragraph is just going to accentuate the perverse incentives that makes people be rewarded for being slippery with the truth. If you are rewarded for reporting that your kids are at or above standard than some teachers will report their kids are at or above standard when it’s not so.”
Not at all – transparency means that results are visible and not subject to ‘interpretation by the teacher. Remember, we are talking literacy basics here – not a subjective review of a thesis. The results are there for all to see – especially the parents! No more instances of teachers telling porkies to parents (the Hollyfield example) because the results are transparent!
If its good for the kids, you’d have to be all for it, right?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:52 am
@milkmilo – looks like you have quoted from this 2009 letter that is sitting on the NZEI website.
Not exactly balanced reporting on your part, is it?
http://www.nzei.org.nz/site/nzeite/files/misc%20documents/Academics'%20Open%20Letter%20to%20Hon%20Anne%20Tolley.pdf
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 11:58 am
mikenmild
All that waffle & verbiage means is that the teaching profession would rather a child has received the required dose of cultural garbage instead of the nuts & bolts of reading, writing & maths. Any of this tripe can be learned at any stage of a person’s life PROVIDED that their basic education has given them the tools for further learning.
That is all that the last half of this thread is about…..kids leaving the education system after wasting ten years weaving flax baskets but still unable to read a newspaper.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
ROBBO (2) Says:
And we cant have failures can we Mike?
Surely the purpose of education is to ensure that children are “prepared” for the real world, not sheltered from its realities.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Surely, the goal of education is to have them prepared for the real world at the point that they *finish* their education.
The question then is “Does perparing them for the real world at 6 optimise the above goal?” My opinion is that it doesn’t.
Telling kids who are doing their best that their best isn’t good enough isn’t good motivation for them to keep trying. It’s even worse when it’s not inherently anything wrong with them just that their growth doesn’t match the linear pattern demanded from the national standards.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
Elaycee – good – you should be able to look into the arguments a bit further from the resources there. It’s quite strange, and I am looking, but I haven’t found any evidence in favour of the policy yet.
nasska – I’m not sure you read that correctly, although it seemed quite plain to me.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 12:21 pm
mikenmild
It was what I read into this….
….”It will undermine the new curriculum and lead to a narrower, less interesting form of primary education for New Zealand children. It will also result in inappropriate judgements about the quality of schools and teachers.”…..
As far as I can tell in the new curriculum culture is right up there with reading & writing.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 12:33 pm
milkmilo says: “you should be able to look into the arguments a bit further from the resources there…”
For sure – I can access the public area of the NZEI site just the same as you can. But their views can hardly be described as independent – in fact, they’re based on whatever policy or position is suggested to them by the Labour Party.
Funny that.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Elaycee
Vote:I think the relationship between the NZEI and the Labour Party might be the opposite of what you describe.
If the NZEI published factually incorrect information, do you think there would be any shortage of critics to point that out?
September 9th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
A lot of the problems with what passes for “education” (and I use that term loosely) in NZ and much of the West could be solved by returning to the Classical Trivium model.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 12:51 pm
milkmilo – anyone suggesting that the NZEI is independent and anything but joined at the hip with your Labour Party, is delusional.
Maybe you have forgotten this from Whale Oil :
http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/index.php/2011/06/whaleleaks-nzei-non-political/
The ‘open letter’ from the NZEI website can hardly be cited as a factual document as it is merely an opinion piece.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
‘merely an opinion piece’
Vote:Nice try Elaycee. Yoyu make it sound lile the NZEI found four random guys on the street and got them to write something. Feel free to cite any informed comment supporting the national standards.
September 9th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
Elaycee,
you will find that MM’s concept of “informed comment” is anything he agrees with and only from sources he agress with. He frames debates to suit himself. This is a guy that thinks John Pilger is a “committed journalist”!!! Your wasting your time.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
milkmilo – you have clearly forgotten the key point: Tolley has won this battle with the intransigent unions and National Standards will be implemented by all schools who are seeking taxpayer funding.
It doesn’t matter what propaganda was posted on the NZEI site during 2009 – it is no longer relevant nor required as the decision has been made.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
That’s okay, Elaycee, so you can’t find anything that backs the national standards. I can understand that – I’ve had a look too and there isn’t anything.
Vote:Just because a government adopts a stupid policy and succeeeds in implementing it doesn’t make it any less stupid.
I’m sure you didn’t stop criticising other policies just because ‘the decision has been made’.
September 9th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
It is the most damning and glaring example of either rank idiocy or hypocrisy that the teaching profession claims that they don’t need NS to be able to tell who the “underperformers” are while at the same time lying to parents through their teeth about the children’s performance. It just does not gel unless teachers are admitting to deceipt and telling of blatant untruths.
Presumably no-one has disputed that there is a problem with basic literacy and numeracy levels of school leavers yet the teachers are sticking fast to the stance that they know best. Patently they don’t know best because the system is broken, which only serves to demonstrate the same denial that the NZ Labour Party is exhibiting in spades about their position in the political space.
Quoting international comparisons (presumably gained through the application of standard measures funnily enough) is absolutely no comfort to those children who leave school without the basic skills required to be gainfully employed and productive members of our society.
Or is it that the under-achievers are over-represented amongst the ranks of the teaching “profession” (quotes used deliberately to underscore the self-opinionation of that group of individuals charged with educating our children)
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
david
A few points come to mind.
Yes, NZ kids do perform very well in international comparisons – NZ’s education system is rated as one of the best in the world. No one is saying performance can’t or shouldn’t be assessed – it’s just that the national standards don’t add anything to the information already gathered on achievement.
That good performance is true in basic literacy and numeracy as well.
If the government was concerned about numbers leaving school without basic skills, presumably it would introduce policies to address that issue. It has not.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
David said
Presumably no-one has disputed that there is a problem with basic literacy and numeracy levels of school leavers yet the teachers are sticking fast to the stance that they know best. Patently they don’t know best because the system is broken, which only serves to demonstrate the same denial that the NZ Labour Party is exhibiting in spades about their position in the political space.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course I dispute it. Look at the international studies and you’ll see NZ come out near the top in numeracy and literacy.
There is a problem in the tail but national standards isn’t about helping the tail, it’s only about measuring the tail.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Mike, at the risk of prolonging the debate at this important time in our development as a nation, I take the stance that knowing you have a problem is not enough (unless you are a Labour Government which would just throw more money into the pot and claim success). You need to know where the problem is, what is causing it and what measures are effective in rectifying it. I take NS as an attempt to throw some ligt on the first of these.
National policy is that money will be made available in areas (either geographical or subject) where it can be seen that it will have an effect. But I am not silly enough to profess that it is a silver bullet. Any thinking person and most parents (not mutually exclusive) will accept that it will be the cumulative effects of a bunch of measures that will make a difference.
BTW I am also supportive of the idea of throwing the system in and trying to make it work. From what we have seen any half arsed attempt at trialling it would have been totally vulnerable to white-anting and sabotage from the teaching unions and in the end it would have sunk without trace as a shadow of its former self. On old mentor of mine once told me that to make progress you should take a bloody big bite and then chew like hell. Made sense then, makes sense now as I have seen too many good ideas analysed into oblivion.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
but national standards isn’t about helping the tail, it’s only about measuring the tail.
Isn’t it trying to measure everyone? There’s a lot of parents with kids somewhere in the middle (and higher) who want a clear indication of how their kids measure up.
The “tail” is a different issue that requires much harder decisions than NS – and much of what is required to address the failing tail are not teacher’s jobs.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
mpl, Take some comprehension lessons.
“There is a problem in the tail …..” by your own words. If you cannot accept that by quoting international comparisons you are saying that it is OK to have a certain failure rate because other countries accept a certain failure rate, then you are demonstrating the very blind spot that I was alluding to.
So you think that it is OK to shrug your shoulders and tell the parents of underperformers that they are doing OK while knowing that they will never have an acceptable level of basic skills because that is within the statistically acceptable limits by international comparison?
If you do then you are only deserving of my contempt.
Over and out
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Here is some good research and solid commentary on education in general and the National Standards. The second pdf report goes into a lot of detail on why we need National Standards and counters much of the Union/Labour mis-information we have been subjected to.
“Currently, in New Zealand’s education system, there are significant problems with student underachievement, with 20 percent of students falling behind expectations for achievement.”
http://www.maxim.org.nz/files/parentfactor/pdf/ParentFactorReport4.pdf
http://www.maxim.org.nz/files/pdf/policy_paper_national_standards.pdf
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
The “tail” problem is not simply “underachievement”, many kids don’t achieve because of factors outside school, namely dysfunctional families.
To address the tail maybe we should look at National Standards for parenting.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
another milkmilo pearl: “NZ’s education system is rated as one of the best in the world..”
Haha – sure. Where does it say this? Oh thats right – you have cited more propaganda courtesy of the NZEI website:
http://www.nzei.org.nz/site/nzeite/files/misc%20documents/Vision.pdf
But the NZ system is NOT one of the best in the world because over the last decade it was hijacked. If in doubt of this claim, just ask a parent of one of the (approx) 20% of kids who somehow emerge from the taxpayer funded education system lacking in basic literacy and numeracy skills. Basic skills of reading, writing and mathematics! the system has failed / let them down / let us all down. Instead of ‘teaching’ children’s rights / basket weaving and something equally irrelevant, energies should have been devoted to the basics.
I really think your myopic love of the NZEI is founded on the possibility that their name is on your salary cheque.
Either that, or you are a profligate moron.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Elaycee,
Didin’t you know? In our progessive modern Union run education system a 20% failure makes us a world class education system!
Labour and their NZEI and PPTA lackies have their Orwellian New-Speak down to a t.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Where did 20% come from? Or is that anti-teacher propoganda from National?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Lee
Vote:Thanks for those links. The first seems to be about parental choice and vouchers, etc. The second contains the reference to ’20 percent of students falling behind’ that seems to have some currency. It is ferenced in the Maxim document to a paer from Prof John Hattie at Auckland University. Interestingly, he is one of the authors of the open letter opposing National Standard that I quoted from above.
September 9th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Elaycee
Vote:You might want to check out the PISA rankings of student performance, but you mmay have other valid measures that back your claims about NZ education.
September 9th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
@mpledger – “Where did 20% come from? Or is that anti-teacher propoganda from National?”
Ha ha – try the Education Review Office3 Annual Report 2005 – a report prepared whilst Labour’s Steve Maharey was Minister of Education and in which it stated that 1 in 5 kids (20%) left school lacking basic literacy and numeracy skills.
If you want a link, try the PPTA or NZEI websites – they will most likely remember your password details!
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
@milkmilo – thanks for the offer – but no thanks. I don’t need to read any more of your propaganda – this battle has been won by Ann Tolley and now we can all look forward to seeing National Standards implemented.
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
Pete George at 2.01 said: “The “tail” problem is not simply “underachievement”, many kids don’t achieve because of factors outside school, namely dysfunctional families. ”
True, but are you saying that because dysfunctional families exist my daughter should not be compared to an expected level of achievement? That because dysfunctional families exist I should not be told that my daughter is not doing well at school? That because dysfunctional families exist I should not be given information that will enable me to put support in place for her? That because dysfunctional families exist my daughter should not be given support to help lift her academic performance?
Or are you saying that all 20% of children who do not do well are from dysfunctional families?
Vote:September 9th, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Hollyfield – no. There are of course kids from good families that have “underachieved” for some reason, these problems can be picked up and reported to parents by (amongst other things) National Standards. My son started well at school and then started to have problems when he was six and a half. We were fortunate that we noticed and took action ourselves and found he had an eyesight problem.
That aside, there is a proportion of kids that have troubled lives and difficult family situations – including abuse and major violence – that cause a disproportionate amount of problems at schools. Not only do some of these kids not learn, they disrupt learning of other kids in the classroom and can take up a lot of teacher time.
But you can’t neatly categorise the problems. I was disruptive in class (so I’m told) because I got my work done quickly, got bored and distracted other kids still trying to work.
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