General Debate 30 September 2011

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Inventory2

Rule #1 of WhaleOil’s Rules of Politics:

If you are explaining, you are losing

I guess that makes Darien Fenton the Biggest Loser!

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/09/explaining-is-losing.html
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September 30, 2011 8:08am
Sofia

‘ Defence Minister Wayne Mapp conceded the SAS’s work with the elite Afghan crisis response unit (CRU) involved a “substantial combat component”.
And Defence Force chief Lieutenant-General Rhys Jones said it was not possible to say the SAS was not in the front line, because that was hard to define.
The Defence Force described the role of the SAS in Kabul as “mentoring” because that was the term used by the United States.
“It’s like being a driving instructor. You’re in the car, if there’s a crash, you’re going to get hurt,” he said.
But Prime Minister John Key insisted the SAS in Kabul should not be described as a combat force.
“That’s not right; in a combat force you’re the frontline force. You’re out there leading the charge. The CRU lead the charge and we support them. But if in that support something goes wrong we go in and help them.” ‘

– Expect more troop deaths, public warned – stuff.co.nz

The new ‘cut’ of New Zealand military is a third in combat, a third preparing, and third R&R.
The sooner the public is aware of this, the less need there will be for this smoke screen krap above
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September 30, 2011 8:10am
Pete George

I2 – at least she apologised, but effective apologies usually need to be very soon after the cockup, not days after when the damage is done.
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September 30, 2011 8:11am
iMP

When BOB Parker steps down, BOB Jones for mayor in Chch.
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September 30, 2011 8:11am
Manolo

NZ credit rating takes a small hit: http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10755468&ref=rss
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September 30, 2011 8:12am
Scott Chris

Happy Feet’s Dad Turns Up In Belgium:

http://news.yahoo.com/belgiums-mr-penguin-dreams-antarctic-funeral-154923825.html

Yearns for an Antarctic funeral. Thinks his son is probably feeding the Orcas….
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September 30, 2011 8:13am
Lazybum

Fitch downgrade NZ Credit rating.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10755468
Well done Bill, when are you going to resign?
WE HAVE TO STOP BORROWING, SIMPLE AS THAT.
I am ok, I am debt free, do not owe anyone a cent, but NZers need to stop spending as much and pay down debt, it’s that simple. 8 years ago I had a $300K mortgage, paid it off, lived a simple life but did not miss out on any of the nice things such as holidays.
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September 30, 2011 8:16am
Scott Chris

This just in:

Happy Feet’s GPS Tag Turns Up In Orca Poo:

Greenpeace suspect fowl play.
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September 30, 2011 8:17am
Inventory2

@ Pete – she only apologized because the MSM was sniffing around.
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September 30, 2011 8:19am
thedavincimode

OK, 9 comments in, all clear so far … 😛
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September 30, 2011 8:21am
Manolo

Cheer up. With a bit of luck this tyrant will be toast soon: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/8796505/Hugo-Chavez-in-hospital-for-kidney-failure.html
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September 30, 2011 8:32am
Scott Chris

IV2 – “Rule #1 of WhaleOil’s Rules of Politics:”

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
Groucho Marx

“Politics is concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.”
Richard Armour

“Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently. And all for the same reason.”
José Maria de Eça de Queiroz

“Hell, I never vote for anybody, I always vote against.”
W.C. Fields

davincimode – Did someone say apocrypha?
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September 30, 2011 8:37am
graham

@ IV2 and Pete – The MSM aren’t just sniffing any more:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10755408

“MP leaves Mad Butcher ‘speechless'”

‘Sir Peter told the Herald from Melbourne that he did not know what to say when he heard what Ms Fenton had said about him. “I honestly don’t know what to say, to be fair … it’s just taken the wind out of my sails. I’m absolutely gutted by her comments.”‘

Sir Peter said he supported Helen Clark when Labour was in power and took her to Warriors matches. “The National Party never complained that I supported Helen Clark,” he said.

Exactly. Labour needs to understand that people are allowed to, y’know, think for themselves and have different opinions to you.

‘In response to Ms Fenton’s claims that he was “sucking up to John Key big time”, he said: “I thought freedom of speech was one of the things people went to Gallipoli for. But obviously in her opinion, it’s not.”‘

Wow.

To be fair, she has apparently apologised and admitted it was “silly”. But she states, “I have never ever suggested a boycott, or started a boycott or called for a boycott – that is simply not true.”

Really? So writing “So, Mad Butcher. You have a choice, but so do I … I’m never going near him again.” isn’t suggesting a boycott?
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September 30, 2011 8:41am
thedavincimode

“Well do ya … punk?”

Clint Eastwood

“When it looks like all hope has faded … sometimes ya gotta get plumb mean”

Clint Eastwood

Don’t mention the Jewish play.
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September 30, 2011 8:44am
Inventory2

@ Graham; which was exactly the point I made in my post which I linked to in the first comment. The damage has been done, and now that the MSM has the story, it’s simply being compounded.

It’s a stunning SMOG (Social Media Own Goal) by Darien Fenton, evidenced by the fact that we are still discussing it four days on.

PS: I wonder how many Mad Butcher customers (or even Mad Butcher staff) are members of the Service and Food Workers’ Union, Darien Fenton’s former employer. That’s the ultimate irony.
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September 30, 2011 8:46am
Nookin

Offending (but illegible) mouthguard — $10,000
Out and out cheating — wet bus ticket slap for minor officials.
Priceless!!
At least we know where IRB priorities are and they have nothing to do with sportsmanship or the game of rugby!
Mark Reason and Stephan Jones should suck on that for a day or two if they really want to cultivate a sour taste in their mouths.
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September 30, 2011 8:56am
Rick Rowling

“Politics” is derived from the words “poly” meaning “many”, and “tics” meaning “blood-sucking parasites.”
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September 30, 2011 8:59am
wreck1080

labour made the butcher cry.

Why do labour turn on their allies? I recall Owen Glenn being savaged by labour, now, they have turned their sights on the butcher.
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September 30, 2011 9:02am
Nookin

Fenton says that it was a spur of the moment comment and a silly thing to say. She knew however that this was in the public arena for four days and made no comment at all until MSM contacted her. It is very difficult to escape the conclusion that her comments reflected the real Fenton and that her spitefulness was so strong that she could not control herself and had to make her comments public. How could anyone possibly have any faith in her if she was in a position of power?
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September 30, 2011 9:02am
Pete George

Where it really gets interesting – Pool B possibilities

1. England qualify first, Argentina second

England win and Argentina win.

England lose by less than seven points and Argentina win.

England win and Argentina lose but gain more bonus points than Scotland.

England and Scotland draw and Argentina win.

2. England qualify first, Scotland second

Scotland win by seven points or fewer and Argentina lose.

Scotland and Argentina lose but Scotland gain more bonus points.

England and Scotland draw and Argentina lose.

3. Scotland qualify first, England second

Scotland win by more than eight points and Argentina lose.

Scotland win with a four-try bonus point and Argentina win without a bonus point.

4. Argentina qualify first, Scotland second

Argentina win with a four-try bonus point, Scotland win by eight points or more and England pick up no bonus points.

Argentina win with a four-try bonus point and Scotland win with a four-try bonus point.

5. Qualification to be decided on points difference

Scotland win by eight points or more and Argentina win.
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September 30, 2011 9:07am
Pete George

Re Fenton – yes, it’s significant that it has taken four days and publicity to prompt an apology.

It is very difficult to escape the conclusion that her comments reflected the real Fenton

I happened to see her give a speech in parliament a couple of nights ago, just after the VSM was done. The speech was totally bitchy and negative and she had nothing useful to say. So her mad butch comments may not have been out of character.
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September 30, 2011 9:11am
Scott Chris

Darien Fenton walks into a Mad Butcher’s shop. She spots Peter Leitch gettin’ his hands dirty with the workers, so she says, “Have you got pigs feet Butch?”
Peter says, “To be fair, yes I do, to be fair.”
So Darien says, “Well trot over and get me a pound o’ mince then, porky!”

The rest is history.
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September 30, 2011 9:13am
Murray

What the FUCK do you think our soldiers have won 10 Bronze Stars, three valor decorations including a VC and a presidential unit citation for Sofia? Extreme bridge building and handing out freaken soft toys???

Jesus some of you people are too stupid to be given a keyboard.
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September 30, 2011 9:23am
Pete George

A keyboard? What’s that?

All I’m doing is sitting here hitting my forehead on my desk and stuff just keeps coming out.
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September 30, 2011 9:29am
Rick Rowling

Why do labour turn on their allies?

Because they (some of them) are ideologues, not pragmatists.

The word heresy comes to mind,
but I’m afraid that if I mention it we’ll end up with another God-botherer vs God-botherer-botherer GD, and nobody wants that. Except for four of you (you know who you are).
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September 30, 2011 9:31am
lofty

Thanks Rick…thats torn it!!!!!!!
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September 30, 2011 9:32am
DRHILL

I’m sorry for my dirty mind, but quote of the day has to come from the Mad Butcher:

“I’ve done nothing with John Key that I didn’t do with Helen Clark – I’ve been a littlebit more vocal.”
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September 30, 2011 9:35am
Pete George

Religious ideologues and political ideologues are quite similar in many ways, black and white views and they can’t comprehend someone thinking differently to them. They can’t perceive that anyone could believe differently without being evil so they berate rather than debate.
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September 30, 2011 9:37am
Rufus

Murray, I like the cut of your jib.

Carry on.
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September 30, 2011 9:42am
scanner

One of the saddest thing to happen with MMP has been the fact that list MP’s retain a place at the trough regardless of what they say or do, this brain fart from Fenton being a glaring example.
She has said she is sorry, that doesn’t mean she is, it’s just that the storm created by her attack of cerebral dysentery (i.e. a sudden rush of shit to the head) has made her masters panic and go into damage control, and force her to apologize.
A more fitting course of action would be the shifting of her down the list to a point where her place at the trough became more marginal than guaranteed, this would of course lead to to screaming and bellowing from the union movement , so is unlikely to ever happen.
Labour risk serious damage to their brand if this is allowed to carry on for ever and a day, which it has the potential to do.
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September 30, 2011 9:43am
thedavincimode

“Labour risk serious damage to their brand ”

FFS, if “serious” has yet to occur, then God help them when it does.
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September 30, 2011 9:49am
thedavincimode

… duuurrrgghhh
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September 30, 2011 9:50am
Scott Chris

DRHILL – “I’ve done nothing with John Key that I didn’t do with Helen Clark – I’ve been a littlebit more vocal.”

Sing in a choir? (pfft. Doctors are so Freudian)

davincimode – “God help them when it does”

Has to reach critical mass first. You can’t force it, but inevitably religion will arise of its own, magical volition. 😉
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September 30, 2011 9:59am
thedavincimode

… one potata, two potata …
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September 30, 2011 10:01am
lofty

Warriors fans were mainly Labour supporters…nek minnit…..
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September 30, 2011 10:08am
adze

Meanwhile in the land of Internetz, circa 1941…

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrmu3oMJKf1qb5gkjo1_400.jpg
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September 30, 2011 10:12am
thedavincimode

Outstanding lofty.

Bring back karmas.
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September 30, 2011 10:15am
Manolo

The outrageous opinion of a fucking elitist: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/newspapers-shouldnt-print-opinion-from-non-experts-manne/story-e6frg996-1226150263405
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September 30, 2011 10:18am
scanner

The reason politicians try so hard to get re-elected is that they would hate to have to make a living under the laws they’ve passed.
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September 30, 2011 10:20am
Monique Watson

Charles Chauvel just said on FB that he throws stuff at the TV. I wonder if he has ever clocked anyone in The House.
Check it out for the context; he was (I guess) joking and being complimentary to a news presenter, but it’s hard to get past the whiff of arrogance. The whole DF debacle is reminiscent of the “Charles gets crabby at kids” on a plane episode circa 2009.
I don’t think he apologized though.
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September 30, 2011 10:53am
tom hunter

We seem to have had a lot fewer lefties commenting on this site than in the past. It’s probably associated with the sheer uselessness and incompetence of the local Labour party, but also with the same factors apparent with the Rudd and Gillard governments in Australia and the spectacular stupidities of the Obama administration.

Even so, I could not help but wonder what the screams would be like if a Republican in the US has said this during the Bush era, or even now:

“I think we ought to suspend, perhaps, elections for Congress for two years and just tell them we won’t hold it against them, whatever decisions they make, to just let them help this country recover,”

That was the Democrat governor of North Carolina, Bev Perdue, speaking to some Rotary club affair. Her staff at first tried to claim it was made in jest, but listening to the comments it’s clear that she was dead serious.

This is what the left are coming to around the world.

It would be tempting to say that this is just the banality of evil – the Kieth Locke syndrome. But I think it’s just sheer hopelessness. We hear about how our institutions are failing and government is failing. But what’s really failing is the left-wing concept of government (meaning ever-more government) and left-wing institutions (meaning ever-growing institutions) – and the response is now so desperate that we begin to hear the old siren songs about gridlock, too much democracy, and the need for strong, single-minded and highly competent leaders to work the magic.

I also don’t think it’s going to be enough for left-wing suckholes like the returned CEO of Salon to suddenly discover the need for an American Spring either.

In these increasingly hard times, Salon is dedicating itself to an American revival. Our editorial mission will become more explicitly and aggressively populist. We will be publishing more investigative pieces, exposing the shadow dance of power. And both Democratic and Republican targets will be fair game, since both parties are increasingly under the control of the same corporate forces.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,…..

Americans are in desperate need of a true crusader for their interests — not a phony Tea Party. Salon will fight tooth and claw for the beleaguered majority, exposing the machinations of oligarchy with rigorously reported, deep journalism.

Muhahahahaha. Bullshit, and any case you’re too late. The Tea Party is already occupying that space after two years of denigration from the likes of you. These comments, as well as Governor Perdue’s, and former Obama Budget Director Orszag’s, are simply more evidence that the left just does not get it yet.

They’ve failed, and now it’s just a question of how those failures unwind.
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September 30, 2011 11:04am
Pete George

We seem to have had a lot fewer lefties commenting on this site than in the past. It’s probably associated with the sheer uselessness and incompetence of the local Labour party

That’s probably got a lot to do with it. The numbers at The Standard seem to be a lot lower too (and not just since they stopped me posting there).

It’s a bit like leaving a rugby match early when the team is heading for a hiding.
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September 30, 2011 11:11am
adze

Tom,
I think it’s time that the US have a serious look at their defence expenditure. Have a look at this graph comparing theirs, to that of other countries:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/0f4c565e412d2e7c4fdd8b6a638ab809.png

Does this make sense, considering their financial position? They can no longer afford to be the world’s policemen.
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September 30, 2011 11:17am
graham

Cue the back-peddling from Darien Fenton …

Apparently she has posted on Red Alert “Normally this kind of fuss wouldn’t bother me much, but I’ve had another look at what I said and reckon I went too far.”

Translated: S**t, I got caught.

She said “Even though we might disagree on politics these days, I’ve still got a lot of respect for him.”

Really? Didn’t sound like it when you called him a sycophant.

And she’s offered to shout him a beer “if you are reading this”. So Sir Peter has to go to a blog site, read the comment, call Dairen Fenton up and claim his free beer???

What an apology, eh?
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September 30, 2011 11:36am
YesWeDid

‘We seem to have had a lot fewer lefties commenting on this site than in the past. It’s probably associated with the sheer uselessness and incompetence of the local Labour party’

Yes and the fact that DPF serves up such an unrelenting diet of Labour bashing that I for one can’t be bothered engaging in comment most of the time.

If there was more serious balanced comment on this site then you might get more people from the left commenting but it’s DPF site, if he wants to post crosswords, pictures of birds and bang on about every election sign that is missing an authorisation or every time someone from Labour says something dumb on the internet then that’s his call.

Personally I’d like to see more on issues like why we have just had our credit rating downgraded but like I said it’s DPF site so who am I to say what he should post.
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September 30, 2011 11:40am
tom hunter

adze

I agree – and they could start saving money by closing a lot of bases like the ones in Germany.

But I’m not buying the left-wing argument that the reason they’re in the shit is because of military expenditure. If one looks at the proportion of GDP or even of Federal expenditure it’s clear that the USA is spending vastly less of it’s wealth on the military than 20-30 years ago, let alone in the 1950’s. Moreover, you have to consider the proportion of that expenditure is going on basic stuff like wages (higher than the rest of the world) and the rest of the logistics, as opposed to hypersonic troop transports, navy railguns and battlefield laser systems.

Stiglitz must have really thought he was on to something with The Three Trillion Dollar War in 2007, back in the old days when people could be so shocked by the word “trillion”. But the vast bulk of that money was not pissed away into the desert sands of Iraq or Afghanistan. What we’re actually looking at is a perennial Keynesian experiment as almost all that money was and is spent in the USA itself.

It does not seemed to have helped the economy – although any lefty who makes that point will forget it the moment the opportunity arises for another “stimulus” package to generate jobs.
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September 30, 2011 11:40am
DJP6-25

Inventory2 8:08 am. Could this be another milestone on the way to Labour becoming a third party?

cheers

David Prosser
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September 30, 2011 11:48am
tom hunter

Yes and the fact that DPF serves up such an unrelenting diet of Labour bashing that I for one can’t be bothered engaging in comment most of the time.

Oh I agree and I’m not sufficiently in love with the National party that I don’t notice the dearth of such discussion points. Frankly KB is becoming pretty bloody boring.

As you say, we’ve just had a credit downgrade by one rating agency and that should be a bloody big topic for discussion, as should be the questions of how well we’re prepared for the coming Euro (and global) financial fuckup.

But there’s nothing preventing lefties from charging into the GD with suggested topics. The problem is that most of the leftover clowns are too busy getting their kicks by taunting Christians or indulging in their usual moral preening about how mean, callous and cruel the racist, money-grubbing, planet-hating right-wingers are.

That’s pretty bloody boring too.
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September 30, 2011 11:51am
Fisiani

Darien Fenton told the truth when she vented her spleen at what she perceived at class treachery from Sir Peter Leitch. She is typical leftie who holds the belief that the working classes should have an automatic allegiance to the Labour Party. This the same party that Damien O’Connor MP recently called a party of “self interested unionists and a gaggle of gays.”
She now trys to make an apology and trys to rewrite history by claiming that she never advocated a boycott of the stores that he no longer owns!!
The arrogance and sense of entitlement of the Left seems to know no bounds.
They deserve to be crushed in 8 weeks.
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September 30, 2011 11:51am
Pete George

Yes graham, a remarkable post. If the mad butcher is reading this maybe he could give me sone league final tickets? Or should I hint on Red Alert, he might be more likely to be reading there, but I doubt it.

Also remarkable, on the same thread there is evidence some of the flock actually believe stuff like this:

ghostwhowalksnz says: “and maybe on Bryce Edwards payroll as well”.
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September 30, 2011 11:53am
adze

“But I’m not buying the left-wing argument that the reason they’re in the shit is because of military expenditure”

No I wasn’t suggesting that. Their problems are beyond simple left/right distinctions now although still political in nature (institutional capture by interest groups for one). But I do think they need to change the focus of their role in the world. In a few decades they won’t have a choice in the matter anyway.
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September 30, 2011 11:56am
DJP6-25

Manolo 10:18. But… he’s just trying to help the peasants. They can’t think for themselves you know. What noble motives.
Reason #958 to despise collectivisim.

cheers

David Prosser
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September 30, 2011 12:00pm
DJP6-25

tom hunter 11:51. Keep posting. Your stuff is always interesting. I wonder if John Key’s second term will be marked by some more radical steps in the way of reducing our debt situation. His supporters usually say this term is a mattter of not scaring the horses. Wait until next term for some substantive measures to deal with our problems. I suspect they are Labour lite. But, I’d like to be proven wrong.

cheers

David Prosser
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September 30, 2011 12:10pm
mikenmild

Well, one might be forgiven for thinking that if now isn’t the right time for Key to unveil a more radical agenda for the next three years then it’s not gong to happen.
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September 30, 2011 12:21pm
adze

Radical in what sense Mike?
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September 30, 2011 12:26pm
mikenmild

Catching up with Australia and other ‘aspirational’ goals etc. Some actual policy changes…
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September 30, 2011 12:32pm
scanner

A lucky escape for Trevor, it looks like we’ll have to wait till November till he gets properly fucked –
http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/5710079/Duck-survives-100kmh-Levin-car-crash
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September 30, 2011 12:32pm
adze

Meanwhile China launches its first space station:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15089720

Key/English need to stay on message about Kiwis improving their financial literacy. It would be good if they could look at the issues entrepreneurial businesses have with growth too.
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September 30, 2011 12:33pm
Scott Chris

Jon Stewart interviews an ungracious Bill O’Reilly.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-september-28-2011/exclusive—bill-o-reilly-extended-interview-pt–1

Bridge builder meets wall builder.
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September 30, 2011 12:38pm
Monique Watson

Fine form today guys. hysterical. I just about had (another) aneurysm when I got to your hitting the keyboard comment Pete.
Have we not touched on God or the climate or pot yet today? Whatthefuckishappening here?

With regards to the leftie posting quotient. There seems to be a lot more cross posting by individuals.
We’re all one peoples.
Or: It’s all one blog. The truth is in the middle.
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September 30, 2011 12:56pm
Johnboy

Some of Aunty Helens wonderful new citizens.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10755534

Deport the scum.
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September 30, 2011 1:11pm
Black with a Vengeance

where da white wimmin at ???
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September 30, 2011 1:46pm
Sofia

What the FUCK do you think our soldiers have won 10 Bronze Stars, three valor decorations including a VC and a presidential unit citation for Sofia? Extreme bridge building and handing out freaken soft toys???
Jesus some of you people are too stupid to be given a keyboard.

Don’t tell me, Murray – tell the arseholes who say we aren’t ‘in combat’.
And who gave you a fucking keyboard?
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September 30, 2011 2:04pm
meh

aaannnnddd a second agency has just decided to downgrade NZ…..
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September 30, 2011 2:11pm
Batman

@ Tom from earlier: I think the comments about suspending elections are more a comment on the state of America’s political system, rather than a comment on the left.
It is often commented on in Political Science circles that the US has a problem in the two year terms with half the house turning over every two years. it results in an environment where half your colleagues are up for election pretty much constantly. unlike here where you have a bit more (but more is needed) time to implement potentially unpopular policies that will work long term.

This is why the deficit debate went to the wire, elections next year for half of both the houses, and new members looking to make an impact.
The two year term is quickly becoming a dead albatross around the neck of American governmental progress, someone needs to cut it loose before it also kills the person who’s neck that it hangs around.
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September 30, 2011 2:15pm
tom hunter

The two year term is quickly becoming a dead albatross around the neck of American governmental progress, someone needs to cut it loose before it also kills the person who’s neck that it hangs around.

See, this is yet another example of how people, including more right-wingers than I’d like, just don’t get the US government structure.

The two-year terms, the interleaving elections in the Senate, the actual division of different key government powers between a Presidential executive, a Senate and a parliament-style House, together with a Supreme Court – was all deliberately designed with the specific intention of keeping the central, Federal government weak.

It was never intended that the Federal government build gargantuan, nation-wide institutions like Homeland Security, the Department of Education, the EPA, HHS, Social Security, Medicare and all the rest. But progressives managed to do it slowly over the decades anyway, grafting these monsters onto a structure that was never intended to support such things, and now that these dying albatrosses are hung around the neck of every American, the left is complaining that government just doesn’t work and should be radically changed to allow improved management.

I don’t think so. Rather than trashing the Federal government checks-and-balances structures of 200 years plus, so as to enable big government to red-line the gauges with more technocratic ease, how about we drastically scale down the size of all those institutions and return them to be fully controlled by the 50 states who, if they decide they don’t actually want them, can scrap them.
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September 30, 2011 2:41pm
Scott Chris

Johnboy – “Deport the scum.”

Criminals? Or heros of capitalism and freedom fighters against a regulated market place? Why the fuck can’t people buy as many tickets as they can and then sell them for what they can get?

I thought you were against Nanny Statism Johnboy 😛

Sofia

Ignore Murray. He’s a farmer. He’s actually trying to chat you up.
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September 30, 2011 2:41pm
Batman

@ Tom:

No I do actually understand the intention, i studied it for four years. anyhow, I still think the current system isn’t working, If America wants its cake and to eat it too, it has to be given more time to do so. Otherwise it will try to eat the whole thing in five minutes and end up throwing it up all over the table…… bleugh.

The fully Federal system is something which is a hangover from a time before Westphalia and the creation of the nation state. It doesn’t work properly when everyone identifies themselves as ‘American’, rather than ‘Texan’, ‘Californian’ etc.
If the US wants to remain at the top of the political tree, it needs to give the central system more power. not more money or size, just ease of movement

Just look at ze Germans and the Brits, they are pretty much running europe right now
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September 30, 2011 3:06pm
Mick Mac

@Tom
you’ve hit the nail on the head.
The problem is too many Americans are receivers of some form of benefits.
People won’t do away with the pay check.

@Batman
as for strengthening the central power at what cost?
BIG GOVT = small people.
The American System was designed for a purpose as Tom states.
To check oligarchies and Big Central Govt and protecting the people from Tyranny.
It’s not as if they’ve got just 4 million people like us.

As for UK and Germany, yeah they run Europe but at what cost?
EU is about to fall over, bet the Germans wished they didn’t run Europe now.
Russia is a case in point for central power, it is inefficient.
But great if you want to control.
Which is why the lefties want Big central powers.
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September 30, 2011 3:56pm
tom hunter

No I do actually understand the intention, i studied it for four years.

And yet …

… it needs to give the central system more power. not more money or size,

You’ve heard of central government systems that don’t increase their size and the amount of money they swallow when they gain more power? You’re sure – absolutely sure – that you understand the founders intentions after four years of study?

Just look at ze Germans and the Brits, they are pretty much running europe right now

They are? That might come as a surprise to German and British voters who often feel that it’s the banks and the hedge funds running things. In any case their governmental structures are very much the same as those of France, Italy, Spain and Greece – who pretty much aren’t running europe right now.

Ironically the Europeans have been trying to build a United States of Europe for some time now, complete with a centralised Parliament, Supreme Court, central bank, common currency and even a constitution.

How’s that going?

The fully Federal system is something which is a hangover from a time before Westphalia and the creation of the nation state.

Given that the whole Westphalia deal concluded in 1648 and the American Revolution started in 1776 (1773 really) I think the founders had some fairly good lessons to draw from, in building a nation state. The unitary, centralised charms of European nations seem to be exactly what the founders did not want.

It doesn’t work properly when everyone identifies themselves as ‘American’, rather than ‘Texan’, ‘Californian’ etc.

You’ll have to explain this further. Even a “fully Federal” system of government has some government functions dedicated to central government, the most obvious being a common defence. While the original colonies certainly looked, acted, and thought like individual states, the declaration of independence, the revolution, constitution and much else that followed certainly had the effect of welding people together as “Americans”, a process fully completed by the American Civil War.

But that did not mean that they lost their appreciation for local government, including state government, anymore than they lost their appreciation for the magnificent diversity of the different regions and states.

But again I am aghast at the mental block evident here. In the age of Facebook and Twitter I would have thought a fully Federal system would be even more attractive than ever. But take a look again at that Salon article (I see the URL has changed):

But they had not given up hope. Inspired by the social upheavals in the Arab world and the protests in Europe against rapacious financial elites, these young Americans are calling for their own “American Spring.”

Sure, let’s have all the young Americans create a Facebook revolution – in order to retain the dinosaurs built by a centralised Ancien Régime and to build new centralised monsters.

They just don’t get it.
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September 30, 2011 4:11pm
Mick Mac

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/09/28/a-lesson-in-good-science-for-global-warming-faithful/print/

The science is never settled.
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September 30, 2011 4:12pm
Steve

‘Not too Clear’ is going real hot on Red Blurt today. I think I counted 5 bans.
At this pace she will have no friends, not even in Liarbore
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September 30, 2011 8:33pm
Griff

Monique Watson
And the rest of you complaining cause some of us like debating religion pot and AGW
We stick lots of topics on GD and get no comments. Ya cant debate with yourself unless you are a master. So suggest topics be controversial have standpoints generate debate. IF you don’t play the game do not moan when others are having fun with out you
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September 30, 2011 9:22pm
Steve

wonder where the master debaters are Griff?
Watching the Rugby ffs
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September 30, 2011 9:32pm
Steve

Monique is pissed off coz Pete is talking some sense these days and she must be a fan of old Pete.
If Pete’s comment was hysterical then imagine what would happen if you read a joke from me or nasska, would you need a doctor? or some oxygen at the least?
You gotta watch this master debating stuff, it can become addictive
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September 30, 2011 9:44pm
Griff

I noticed Pete want a bit odd when he went to the dark side then he went quiet Now hes back with pleasing level of derision and sarcasm. Glad to see him back and firing on all four.
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September 30, 2011 9:52pm
Steve

8, he is firing on all 8.
just needs a turbo
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September 30, 2011 9:54pm
Steve

Hey Pete, you won’t get my vote, but you have the good reasoning needed for the next Election.
Unlike all of the deserters and those who use hate and then suck up (Fenton)
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September 30, 2011 9:58pm
Joseph Carpenter

And in more economic good news, in the Global GDP per capita (PPP adjusted) rankings now Slovenia and GREECE have overtaken NZ.
NZ (OECD) rankings:
1963 = 2nd.
1970 = 9th.
1985 = 18th.
1999 = 21st.
2008 = 24th.
2011 = 28th.
On current trends Portugal will beat us in 2012 leaving us second from the bottom(Turkey is lowest but will exceed us by 2017).

At what point does the OECD re-organise membership and admit new developing members and drop the lowest performing and still sinking countries? (Offically relegating NZ from First World down to the Second World), 2018?
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September 30, 2011 10:31pm
Monique Watson

I wasn’t complaining I was saying I noticed the absence of such robust debate; of which I am a fan. Yup you others are all pretty funny too and that Nasska is a crack-up.
I’m pretty sure I’m talking in an empty room, so night night from me.
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September 30, 2011 11:20pm
Viking2

Some one is going to vote this stupid bitch in as an MP. One would have thought She might have learned from Currrans experience but no. Even Trev commented it was a stupid thing to do. wow.

second MP attacks Mad Butcher for ties to Key
By Derek Cheng and Amelia Romanos
5:30 AM Saturday Oct 1, 2011

Rugby-netball double international Louisa Wall is sticking up for fellow Labour MP Darien Fenton over her attack on the public “bromance” between the Mad Butcher Sir Peter Leitch and Prime Minister John Key.

This week, Ms Fenton called Sir Peter a “sycophant” and said he was “sucking up to John Key big time. I’m never going near him again.”

“I choose not to buy stuff from those who support Tories.”

She was reacting to Sir Peter’s public endorsement of Mr Key and invitation to him to watch the Warriors at tomorrow’s NRL grand final.

Late on Thursday, she apologised on Labour’s Red Alert blog and called Sir Peter “a top bloke”.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10755757
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October 1, 2011 7:29am

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