General Debate 8 September 2011

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Scott Chris

“I think this is the human side some miss on this”

Aha Reid, I knew you were a closet humanist, whose pragmatism leads you to believe that the free market would be best for society as a whole.

When it comes to secret agendas, I find it far more believable that the most socially conservative politicians are in the thrall of those who have the most to gain by preserving the status quo, namely the liquor industry, the police, the judiciary and the drug dealers.

“Sure, no ethics, and we need to catch, prosecute, imprison and deport after completion”

And use as political scapegoat and football like the Aussis and New Mexicans.
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September 8, 2011 8:12pm
rakuraku

Scott Chris you should stand for Government you would lift the IQ there remarkably.

Legalising drugs and reallocating resources to education and health would result in much better outcomes.

It is a supply and demand equation, the resources chasing drugs keeps alot of people well paid worldwide, the Taliban would not exist if opium was legalised worldwide.
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September 8, 2011 8:12pm
Griff

re comment from
September 7th, 2011 at 11:35 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10750070
“A special report by the Child and Youth Mortality Review Committee, published today, has found that alcohol was involved in at least 31 per cent of road accident deaths, 30 per cent of fatal assaults and falls, 21 per cent of deaths by poisoning, 16 per cent of drownings and 10 per cent of suffocations by young people aged between four weeks and 25 years between 2005 and 2007.
About 86 per cent of those in their early twenties, and 52 per cent of those aged 15 to 19, died because of their own drinking.
The other 48 per cent of 15 to 19-year-olds and 14 per cent of those in their early twenties died because of someone else’s drinking – usually the driver of a car.”

And yet we ban safer alternatives WTF
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September 8, 2011 8:19pm
Scott Chris

nasska

The pro legalization lobby groups are all looking at Portugal at the moment, who decriminalized most drugs in 2003. So far, reported use is up slightly, but that could be down to more accurate data. Fingers crossed that their bold social experiment works, as it is difficult to prevent an influx of bad seeds from neighbouring countries with drug prohibition still in place.
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September 8, 2011 8:21pm
Scott Chris

rakuraku – I think there are plenty of politicians out there who understand the expediency of legalizing drugs. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, to hold these views openly is political poison.

If you got one on one with John Key off the record, I bet you he’d say, “I wish I had the peoples mandate to legalize drugs”
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September 8, 2011 8:27pm
reid

Aha Reid, I knew you were a closet humanist

Scott I’m a ragingly angry conservative beast disguised as a closet humanist, at least that’s how I try to behave.

whose pragmatism leads you to believe that the free market would be best for society as a whole.

No I just think humans are given the gift of complete and utter freedom and nothing is more satisfying than exercising that in unfettered ways tempered always with wisdom and humanity for it’s only when you give, that you receive. If you want to be loved, for example, love others.

This is how life works. Economically therefore to me the best system is freedom always tempered only with wisdom, which means, possessing an accurate and precise understanding of greed and the cattle mentality which lurks within human nature as eloquently expressed daily by the markets and regulating against such accordingly.

We’re an appallingly long way away from that at the mo, for reasons that I fail to understand since we have many brilliant people working full time in the relevant fields so are they all really thick after all, or what? This makes me angry, which turns me into the conservative beast that I am.

Meanwhile the reasons for the amazing popularity of Tony’s New Liarbore become even more apparent. I wonder if Rupert suggested the slogan to him. I wouldn’t be surprised.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/davidhughes/100103183/tony-blair-was-practically-part-of-the-murdoch-family/
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September 8, 2011 8:28pm
hj

Chris Trotter on Operation 8

“For us, the public, these two failures raise the very real possibility that we may never know what those two hunters stumbled into; the PSIU’s spy heard discussed; the SIS interception warrants revealed; and the Police’s listening devices and videos recorded.

New Zealand is one of the world’s oldest democracies: a nation committed to the rule of law. The Urewera 17 (or, at least 13 of them) have escaped prosecution and possible conviction because of that commitment. They have taken full advantage of the presumption of innocence, and have strenuously exercised their right to silence.

What they were doing up there in the bush, and to what end, remains hidden in the swirling Urewera mist.”
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2011/09/operation-that-failed.html
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September 8, 2011 8:34pm
Weihana

# tristanb (546) Says:
September 8th, 2011 at 6:28 pm

Another unnecessary death down to archaic drug laws.

Firstly, how are they archaic? Cocaine used to be legal, and prior to that there wasn’t really the same concept of “drugs”. These drug laws you talk about are actually pretty recent from a historical perspective.

Secondly: She died because she swallowed a (literal) shit-load of cocaine and some of the condoms burst. No law went out and shot her. It was her decision. She did it to make money. She knew it was illegal and dangerous.

Unless the law says “when travelling to New Zealand you are required to have a stomach full of cocaine”. If it said that, then you can blame the law.

—————————————

Certainly the law didn’t require that she smuggle cocaine but it’s the law of unintended consequences which dictates that people like her inevitably will. Laws don’t always achieve what they intend and they should take responsibility for their consequences regardless of whether or not it was an intended outcome. If drugs were not criminalized desperate people wouldn’t risk their lives undertaking such a dangerous activity.

I’m certainly not going to lose any sleep over this women, but I’m sure she has a family who care about her and those who trivialize and even rejoice at the death of a human being need to do some soul searching.
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September 8, 2011 8:35pm
Griff

THE FOLLOWING IS A LOST OF POSSIBLE SLOGANS PROMOTING NATIONAL CONDOM WEEK

COVER YOUR STUMP BEFORE YOU HUMP

BEFORE YOU ATTACK HER, WRAP YOUR WACKER

DON’T BE SILLY… PROTECT YOUR WILLIE

BEFORE YOU BLAST HER, GUARD YOUR BUSHMASTER

DON’T BE A LONER… COVER YOUR BONER

WHEN IN DOUBT, SHROUD YOUR SPOUT

YOU CAN’T GO WRONG IF YOU SHIELD YOUR DONG

IF YOU’RE NOT GOING TO SACK IT, GO HOME AND WACK IT

IF YOU THINK SHE’S SPUNKY, COVER YOUR MONKEY

BEFORE YOU BAG HER, SHEATH YOUR DAGGER

IT’LL BE SWEETER IF YOU WRAP YOUR PETER

IF YOU SLIP BETWEEN THIGHS, BE SURE YOU CONDOMIZE

TO SAVE EMBARRASSMENT LATER, COVER YOUR ‘GATOR’

SHE WON’T GET SICK IF YOU CAP YOUR DICK

IF YOU GO INTO HEAT, PACKAGE YOUR MEAT

WHILE YOU’RE UNDRESSING VENUS, DRESS UP THAT PENIS

WHEN YOU TAKE OFF HER PANTS N’ BLOUSE, SUIT UP THAT TROUSER MOUSE

DON’T DO MORE THAN NECK HER WITH AN UNWRAPPED PECKER

ESPECIALLY IN DECEMBER, GIFT-WRAP YOUR MEMBER

BEFO’ DA VAN START ROCKIN’, BE SHO’ YO’ COCK GOTS A STOCKIN’

DON’T BE A FOOL, VULCANIZE YOUR TOOL

THE RIGHT SELECTION, SACK THAT ERECTION!

WRAP IT IN FOIL BEFORE CHECKING HER OIL

A CRANK WITH ARMOR WILL NEVER HARM HER

DON’T BE IN A JIFFY… COVER YOUR STIFFY
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September 8, 2011 8:37pm
Weihana

# Elaycee (1,191) Says:
September 8th, 2011 at 1:46 pm

An excellent headline in Stuff: “Drugs Crackdown Nets 300 Arrests”.

Fantastic. Hope it leads to convictions / more low-life parasites off our streets.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5587519/Drugs-crackdown-nets-300-arrests

—————————-

It will result in convictions and imprisonment I’m sure… it will also result in 300 new vacancies for other people to come in and supply the demand.
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September 8, 2011 8:39pm
Griff

Cannabis is easier to get in Christchurch than Auckland, and ecstasy and methamphetamine are also readily available in the city, a study has found.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/5584492/Drug-P-easy-to-get-study-finds

Massey University drug researchers interviewed 411 frequent illegal-drug users from Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch late last year.

The study found the availability of methamphetamine, or P, remains high as the market is entrenched in New Zealand.

The drug was found to be “easy” or “very easy” to get in Christchurch, but more expensive than in Wellington and Auckland.

The price of P had increased from $610 a gram in 2006 to $780 a gram last year, possibly because of greater enforcement against the drug’s use, lead researcher Dr Chris Wilkins said.

Drug users reported the availability of ecstasy had become easier in 2010 compared with 2009

also http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/5584492/Drug-P-easy-to-get-study-finds#comments
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September 8, 2011 8:42pm
nasska

Beyonce’s baby is due in February. Which means we only have six months to wait to see what all the DPB career breeders’ newborn kids will be called next year.
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September 8, 2011 8:43pm
Griff

[Ed: a JEDR (Jedder) is a Joke Ethnic/Denomination/Race. It is substituted for any specific identifiable group to avoid offence.]

Your basic virgin female was all set to get married to a virile JEDR, when her mother took her aside for a little pre-nuptial advice.

“Dear, I know you love this man,” the mother began. “And we’ve tried to welcome him into our family. But there is something you must know. These JEDRs like to make love in a disgusting way, so if he ever asks you to turn over before making love, DON’T do it. It’s degrading and painful, and it will ruin your marriage.”

So the wedding is fine. The happy couple enjoys their first month of marital bliss, when one night, the JEDR says to his wife, “Honey, let’s try making love a little differently tonight. Why don’t you roll over?”

The woman loses it. “You brute,” she sobs. “My mother warned me about you JEDRs, I can’t believe you would do this to me.”

“But honey,” the startled JEDR replies. “I just thought you might want to have children.”
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September 8, 2011 8:45pm
Weihana

# Elaycee (1,191) Says:
September 8th, 2011 at 11:54 am

This fantastic, law abiding, taxpaying, upstanding member of the community scrawled a tattoo “Property of Leon” across a woman’s forehead before he killed her, was found hiding in a wardrobe by Huntly Police….

Throw away the key, FFS.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10750225

——————————————–

Pure evil. He should never have been let out. Punishments for murder in this country are far too lenient, even now. I’m a supporter of rehabilitation and giving people second chances, but when you do something so evil there has to be a point where we say you don’t get a second chance.

We need degrees of murder and for those cold blooded killers who offer no mitigating circumstances the presumption should be life without parole.
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September 8, 2011 8:45pm
reid

those who trivialize and even rejoice at the death of a human being need to do some soul searching

Weihana that’s a very long bow to draw on tristan’s comment.

If drugs were not criminalized desperate people wouldn’t risk their lives undertaking such a dangerous activity.

I’ve advocated decriminalisation on the grounds interdiction techniques aren’t yet advanced enough so why persist in that it obviously keeps getting through all the time so time to try another strategy.

However notwithstanding logic the politics on it are very very emotional since a lot of adults with children equate decriminalisation with encouragement and one obviously understands why.

So that’s the battle an advocate of decriminalisation who wished to get traction, should fight. Target that audience group with the right messages and you would get fertile traction. People at 65 now are the first of the hippies and they will come on board. Once you start getting more and more of those, the debate will start. Then the politics will be exposed.

If I cared to be an advocate of this policy, the first thing I would do is address Dunn’s comment today. The guy thinks that decriminalisation is anti-family. If advocates of this policy could find a way to penetrate the tickled ears, that would be very significant.
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September 8, 2011 8:46pm
Weihana

those who trivialize and even rejoice at the death of a human being need to do some soul searching

Weihana that’s a very long bow to draw on tristan’s comment.

——————

Sorry that was not in response to tristan and I apologize for not making that clear.
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September 8, 2011 8:51pm
Scott Chris

Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

“Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%.”

“The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined.”
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September 8, 2011 9:01pm
Scott Chris

But wait! There’s more!

“In the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.”

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

“In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.”
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September 8, 2011 9:06pm
nasska

Scott Chris

Decriminalisation obviously shut down the “cool, hip rebel” factor.
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September 8, 2011 9:06pm
Griff

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5587519/Drugs-crackdown-nets-300-arrests
Tinnie houses are hubs for criminal offending. The people who run them are often not only dealing cannabis, but also methamphetamine.
They invariably receive stolen property, take payments for drugs and are involved in organised crime groups.

DO THEY NOT REALIZE THAT THEY ARE CREATING THESE CRIMINAL NETWORKS
The war on drugs is not winnable and is not a war on drugs it is a war on people
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September 8, 2011 9:15pm
reid

DO THEY NOT REALIZE THAT THEY ARE CREATING THESE CRIMINAL NETWORKS

Of course they do but since it would lose any side heaps of votes, no-one except the very extreme who don’t stand a chance, ever suggests decriminalisation.

It’s just yet another example of political leaders for whom we dearly pay using the excuse of “it’s the will of the people” for not taking the correct but unpopular decision. Yes Minister was a documentary. Not a lot of people seem to know that.
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September 8, 2011 9:23pm
Scott Chris

Jesus sees that planet earth is going down the drain because so many people use something called drugs. So he has to know about this kind of shit so he calls all the Apostles and tells them that they have to go down to earth to see for themselves what is going on and then go back to Heaven and report to Jesus…

The Apostles go to different places on earth and after some time they come back to report what they saw. John comes and Jesus asks him “What did you find?” John: “I’ve got some funny stuff, that’s called marijuana…” Jesus: “Oh yeah? Let me try it…” he tries it and… “Hey dudes, the music sounds so great!”

Then Paul comes with some amphetamine… Jesus tries it and goes “Wow, I’m feeling hot and full of energy!”

Then comes Peter with some LSD and Jesus says “My hands… they look soo… strange”.

He tries all kinds of dope from each and every one of the Apostles and in the end he welcomes Judas with a huge stoned smile…

“Sooooo….. Judas ….. my ….. brother” he says, “What did …. you bring?”

Judas: “Errr… I brought … the cops!”

edit: I reckon Jesus would have laughed at this one.
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September 8, 2011 9:27pm
Elaycee

Scott Chris: “Had the incentive not been there for a desperate mule to swallow the poison, then perhaps she would have been serving society, rather than being a burden to it, and ultimately lost to it.”

Desperate mule? Clearly you know something that has not been in the media. Do tell…..
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September 8, 2011 9:30pm
Griff

reid
Thanks I know I am extreme no need to tell the rest though
If we keep putting this forward we will have an impact eventually say 30 years
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September 8, 2011 9:37pm
Scott Chris

Elaycee – I suspect that under your tough, uncompromising, zero-tolerant exterior lies a heart of the purest obsidian.
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September 8, 2011 9:41pm
Elaycee

@Scott Chris – you made the claim this drug trafficker was a ‘desperate mule’.

I asked if you could back your claim up. Of course you can’t – you made it up.

Quelle surprise.
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September 8, 2011 9:53pm
plebe

Maori are committed to the future, working to create a country that reflects their values and aspirations, and not been force feed the colonialist view?????
I cannot take the above opinions onboard when i watch our maori bro empting their ashtrays or throwing their junk food wrappers out their car windows.
“people of the land,i say crap”
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September 8, 2011 10:20pm
reid

I cannot take the above opinions onboard when i watch our maori bro empting their ashtrays or throwing their junk food wrappers out their car windows.

But I do that too plebe. All the time. And I’m not Maori.
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September 8, 2011 10:25pm
plebe

I cannot take the above opinions onboard when i watch our maori bro empting their ashtrays or throwing their junk food wrappers out their car windows.

But I do that too plebe. All the time. And I’m not Maori.
WOW you are the man
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September 8, 2011 10:27pm
reid

Thanks I know I am extreme no need to tell the rest though

Griff, my apologies for imprecise wording. I wasn’t referring to you specifically, but the spectrum of the political parties who currently advocate it.

WOW you are the man

I certainly feel like a man when I do it plebe. Like Daniel Boone. Splitting the tree with my McDonald’s wrapper, just like he used to do with his tomahawk.
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September 8, 2011 10:40pm
Griff

damm I am proud of being extreme I thought you were giving me a compliment
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September 8, 2011 10:46pm
reid

I thought you were giving me a compliment

I was Griff, I’m a closet humanist, you see.
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September 8, 2011 11:16pm
Viking2

“Does driving a red station wagon splashed with National Party colours constitute a road safety hazard?

Certianly shows the owner/driver is a confused sociallist.

Yesterday Mr Henare, who was driving his red Audi station wagon emblazoned with his name and photograph,

is denying he gave a woman the finger during an alleged road rage incident last week, saying that he threw his hands up in despair.

Yeh,yeh, yeh.
Practicing his haka for Friday night?

😯
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September 9, 2011 6:32am
Viking2

The woman and her baby were eventually helped by real estate agent Bronwyn Kay, who organised for her to stay in a vacant house. “I’m looking at this girl with her 4-month-old baby and thinking, `what is happening in this country?’ Is it really possible that there is more support for a penguin than for a mother and her child here in New Zealand? What happens to people like this?”, Ms Kay told the Gisborne Herald.

A sign of the National Times.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10750382
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September 9, 2011 6:36am

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