The Press debate

November 3rd, 2011 at 8:34 am by David Farrar

I didn’t watch it, but saw tweet:

Huge win for Goff tonight at debate. One sided – he absolutely smashed it.

Sadly for John, he seems to be a minority of one. Fairfax’s Vernon Small who actually attended the debate wrote:

Who won?

On first and final impressions from someone typing madly in the front row?

Key had the audience eating out of his hand – a showman in top form.

A clear victory for the PM.

I presume Trevor Mallard won’t attack Vernon as a tool of the vast right wing conspiracy.

John Hartevelt tweeted:

A clear win to Key tonight. Proud that The Press hosted such a great debate.

Many people said the format was much better.

ZB’s Felix Marwick:

Calling tonight’s debate for Key. Goff undercut himself by not definitively answering the $ question

And the Herald’s Claire Trevett:

What a jolly Press debate that was. Both entertaining – Goff stood ground till Key Jerry McGuired him, good and hard.

I am deeply disturbed by Claire’s choice of metaphor.

Vernon Small goes further today:

If the first TVNZ debate was a narrow-points victory to Phil Goff, last night’s Press debate was not far short of a rout by John Key.

The next time John Pagani calls something a huge crushing win for Goff or Labour, I’m going to buy National win shares on iPredict!

Funnily enough when judging a debate, I tend to be harder on those whose arguments I agree with. The reason why is because I know thee arguments so well for “the right”, that I’m always thinking (or yelling at the screen) “You should have said this …..”

UPDATE: Danyl at Dim-Post notes:

Goff couldn’t respond. He couldn’t account for the $14 billion shortfall. Instead he prevaricated. He talked about asset sales. He talked about tax evasion. Key continued to press him, and Goff insisted we’d get a spreadsheet ‘soon’, which explained everything. Then he spent the final quarter of the debate insisting that he’d already explained where the money was coming from, while Key and the audience simply laughed at him.

It was a humiliating defeat. And totally unnecessary. Three-and-a-half weeks from the election and Labour’s leader can’t produce a credible budget.

I suspect we will see Labour’s costed budget later today or tomorrow. I also predict it will miraculously balance and show no extra borrowing needed. What will matter is whether Labour’s figures hold up to scrutny. Anyone can make a budget balance by just fiddling with assumptions, such as saying “Our policies are good for the economy, so we predict economic growth will be 05% higher which means this much more tax revenue”.

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78 Responses to “The Press debate”

  1. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    Somebody should tell Key it’s not a bloody comedy movie and he’s not Tom Cruise.

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  2. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    Hes up against Goff, it is a bloody comedy movie, show us the spreadsheet Black with an Agenda.

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  3. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Somebody should tell Goff that money doesn’t grow on trees and, in any event, Goff doesn’t own the fricken orchard.

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  4. DavidC (179 comments) says:

    Goff looked like an idiot, cant believe he didnt have a pre prepared comeback for the $14Bil hole question.
    Looked over at The Standard earlier and they are saying that Key was “making numbers up” and to me I dont think it matters if he was, the points were scored and Goff didnt have any retorts.
    Actually Goff was playing into Keys hands by talking numbers, Key has had 30 years of remembering vast quantities of numerical detail.

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  5. berend (1,601 comments) says:

    Let’s not forget that so far it’s only John Key that has actually spent the money: $ 18.6 billion and counting.

    Relying on ridiculously optimistic scenarios to make the voters believe it won’t be $ 30 billion at the end of his 2nd term.

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  6. Lance (2,309 comments) says:

    So if Labour haven’t released a spreadsheet yet, does it mean they have been talking shit and are now running around in small circles desperately trying to manipulate some figures that won’t make them a laughing stock?

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  7. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    Sadly for John, he seems to be a minority of one.

    Nope, check out the delusional group-therapy session going on over at the Stranded. I’m still laughing at Pete’s “Dog ate my spreadsheet” line, classic.

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  8. trout (865 comments) says:

    After reading Pagani’s column in the Herald yesterday which was sneeringly dismissive of John Key I am not surprised he is a minority of one. Getting closer to the election Pagani (and even Trotter) are demonstrating a high level of desperate, wishful thinking as their horse (which they rightfully dismissed as a non-starter) shows its woeful form.

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  9. Andrew McMillan (44 comments) says:

    Pagani with his unshakable left wing bias would be better put to use on the bridge of the Rena than attempting to add value to a political commentary.

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  10. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    show us the spreadsheet Black with an Agenda.

    All in Goff’s good time…Patience young padwan.

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  11. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    Huge win for Goff tonight at the Press debate. One sided – he absolutely smashed it.

    A number of commentators have already demonstrated how Pagani is an idiot – but aside, from him, do political advisors and talkathon heads still believe that such blatant spinning works?

    I can only assume that they do, on the basis of most sensible people ignore politics until election time so are susceptible to our “arguments”. That is perhaps a polite way of talking about low information voters, itself polite shorthand for ignorant peons – which is what Pagani and co. apparently actually think when they pull these argumentative stunts.

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  12. Manolo (12,626 comments) says:

    DOF, why do you bother with the socialist hack Pagani in your blog? The poor guy ought to be ignored.

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  13. Martin Gibson (206 comments) says:

    Most politicians have not yet cottoned that when they say: “We are going to spend $X billion” the brains of New Zealand’s minority of net tax payers automatically add: “of money we are going to either take off you or borrow against our ability to take money off you.”
    Which kind of takes the gloss off whatever they are promising us in a desperate attempt to keep the best jobs they are ever likely to have.

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  14. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    I think part of what made the Press debate good was that you didn’t have the egos of Guyon Espiner and Main Sainsbury and the ‘panel’ of ‘experts’. You just had the two leaders talking.

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  15. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    I’m you fucking padwan? I don’t bloody think so, hes asking for MY vote not the other way round. SHOW ME NOW, in my time not his blackie.

    Jeeze you party trolls just don’t get the message do you.

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  16. ross (1,454 comments) says:

    > Anyone can make a budget balance by just fiddling with assumptions…

    Are you having a go at John Key? Nah, didn’t think so.

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  17. Positan (377 comments) says:

    It’s kind of hard to escape the impression that Labour believes it should hold office – but not actually govern.

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  18. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    I went to the Backbenchers debate last night in Auckland Central. While I concede that Jacinda Ardern is partly locked into Labour’s campaign ‘strategy’ and she has to stay on message, she really didn’t strike me as particularly flash. While it’s shallow, I’d wager that if she wasn’t more attractive than the average politician, Labour would be stranded off the coast of Auckland Central.

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  19. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    Relax the death grip Murray. You’ll blow a foo foo valve.

    Jeez, how old are you with this instant gratification, baby wants a tit to suck on right now type of swag?…Grow up, take a ticket, stand in line and wait your patience.

    For fucks sake, you John Key apologists just don’t get we’re playing the long game here do you ?

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  20. ross (1,454 comments) says:

    > they are saying that Key was “making numbers up” and to me I dont think it matters if he was…

    Really? You don’t mind Key telling you blatant lies? To be fair, he has been telling prokies for some time now, and of course lied during the first leaders’ debate by saying that no front line health services had been cut. But it’s interesting that you make excuses for Key’s lies. Have you thought about starting up your own blog?

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  21. grumpy (226 comments) says:

    Goff made a huge mistake bringing up Orion (the Christchurch ratepayer owned electricity network company). Didn’t he and his Labour mates oversee the selling of the Wellington electricity network to China??????

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  22. BeaB (1,948 comments) says:

    I love the idea of John Key’s ‘prokies’. Just tell us what they are please, Ross. No, don’t bother as you and your mates can’t see past your own bigotry.

    Phil Goff has decades of flip flops, lies and rewriting history to account for.

    In my experience people who accuse others of sins like lying are the most likely to be liars themselves as we always criticise in others the faults we see in ourselves.

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  23. grumpy (226 comments) says:

    And here it is – go for it John!!!!

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/07/wellington_power_lines_sold_to_chinese.html

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  24. BeaB (1,948 comments) says:

    Last night a Labour supporter whispered to me that John Key is an Israeli. I asked do you mean he is a Jew? Same thing was the sage reply.

    Oh dear. And just imagine this nasty, prejudiced crowd reigning over us with the muesli-munchers – and John Minto!

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  25. Nick R (443 comments) says:

    I’m pleased that there is a lot of focus on Labour’s policies, and the cost. They can’t simply promise ponies for everyone and expect to be taken seriously.

    But I am somewhat mystified at the free pass the Government is getting about its handling of the economy, and the cost of its campaign policies. Unless I have missed something, they seem to have already spent the proceeds from flogging off SOEs at least twice already, once on debt repayment and again on funding for schools. And their costing around savings from benefit reform is pie in the sky stuff because the jobs aren’t there and won’t be there. The only thing keeping the numbers of beneficiaries down at present is massive emigration to Australia. Nor for that matter do I think the Government’s accounts will magically be back in surplus by 2015. The projections of growth bear no resemblance to what the Govt has actually delivered over the last few years and there are no game changers which will suddenly deliver new growth, particularly if there is a double dip recession in Europe & the US.

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  26. Nick R (443 comments) says:

    @ Grumpy – the Wellington power lines were owned by Vector, not the Government.

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  27. DavidC (179 comments) says:

    Ross. If Goff cant call Key on a lie (if in fact Key did actually lie) to his face in a in a leaders debate then Goff deserves to take the pounding he did take. Point being if Goff has no numbers to back up policy he looks like a total tool.

    Black, playing a long game huh? planning on being a viable political force by 2035? The next Liarbour PM is busy doing NCEA exams right now?

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  28. grumpy (226 comments) says:

    Nick R – “@ Grumpy – the Wellington power lines were owned by Vector, not the Government.”

    Exactly – and Orion’s are owned by Christchurch – not the Government. But wellington’s were owned by Wellington and not the Government until Labour allowed them to be sold, eventually ending up in Chinese hands.

    Goff = ignorant AND a hypocrite!

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  29. RightNow (6,338 comments) says:

    “Three-and-a-half weeks from the election and Labour’s leader can’t produce a credible budget.”

    Three years after being elected, Obama still produce any budget. Must be a lefty thing.

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  30. ross (1,454 comments) says:

    > Ross. If Goff cant call Key on a lie

    Did you miss the first leaders’ debate?

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  31. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    I love the idea of John Key’s ‘prokies’. Just tell us what they are please

    joe90 (246) Says:
    November 2nd, 2011 at 7:50 pm

    Citing Key:

    Yeah, National is not going to be raising GST. National wants to cut taxes, not raise taxes…What I’m saying is if we do a half decent job as a government at growing our economy I’m confident that [raising GST] won’t be happening and that’s not on our agenda.

    So Key wasn’t lying but by raising GST he was admitting that National hadn’t done a half decent job as a government at growing our economy

    ‘prokie’ number one…

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  32. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    It would be fair to say that most of the lefties here probably have little time for Goff and are supporting him merely as the latest, flawed vehicle for their socialist dreams.

    It would be nice if they’d recognise that probably most right-wing commentators here have a very similar attitude towards Key. The fact that they can’t tells you much about their Manichean worldview.

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  33. RightNow (6,338 comments) says:

    ross, you keep saying Key lied by telling us no front line health services had been cut. Where’s your proof?

    Now I am just going to straight out call YOU a liar.

    ross, YOU are a LIAR

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  34. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    @ Black with a Vengeance

    Labour is going to get creamed in 23 days time. Even if Goff pulls out a balanced budget today or in two weeks, Labour has lost credibility. To wait this long to reveal it because of some ‘strategy’ is dumb in this economic climate. If Labour’s economic strategy is going to be so good, surely is can withstand three weeks of scrutinising. My parents who have always voted Labour are switching – and I take that as a serious bellwether.

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  35. Graeme Edgeler (3,220 comments) says:

    Anyone can make a budget balance by just fiddling with assumptions, such as saying “Our policies are good for the economy, so we predict economic growth will be 05% higher which means this much more tax revenue”.

    Don’t National’s numbers kinda do the same thing?

    When asked about the Super Age, John Key responded that Labour would need to raise it, but if we followed National’s policies, we could afford to keep it at 65 forever.

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  36. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    It would be fair to say that most of the lefties here probably have little time for Goff and are supporting him merely as the latest, flawed vehicle for their socialist dreams.

    Wouldn’t know a socialist dreams if i had one, but this capitalist nightmare is getting a bit tiresome…

    …as are Key’s LIES.

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  37. Rick Rowling (776 comments) says:

    > Anyone can make a budget balance by just fiddling with assumptions…

    Are you having a go at John Key? Nah, didn’t think so.

    That would be because Key’s plans are costed.

    Ross, you accidentally forgot to include the rest of the statment about whether the costings would stand up to scrutiny. Which is unfortunate as I know you like to be fair and balanced. If you had included that, it would be clear that as National’s costings have been in the public arena, they have stood up to scrutiny.

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  38. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    My parents who have always voted Labour are switching – and I take that as a serious bellwether.

    a week is a long time in politics as they say and we still got 2 to go…

    so if they switch again on the back of some Key blunder what does that say about you and your parents credibility as political weathervanes…Not a hua of a lot eh ?

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  39. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    Sheesh Polly – what is it with this endless defence of one old white guy leading a pack of sad-eyed, white socialists?

    You’re really blowing your credibility as the purveyor of the Pasifikkkan Culture takeover of the world.

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  40. Scott Chris (5,678 comments) says:

    Black with a Vengeance says:- “For fucks sake, you John Key apologists just don’t get we’re playing the long game here do you ?”

    Heh, that’s one way of putting is. Is that the same “long game” that National played in the decade leading up to 2008? Seems rather a defeatist way of going about your business.

    Presumably this long game has a further 6 years to run…mind you, at least Goff has had the balls to tackle the retirement age and the land tax issues, but he’s also come up with a whole lot of economically unfeasible ideas as well.

    Might be time to jump ship and step towards the light. I’m not saying Key’s brand of diluted conservatism is necessarily the best approach, but National appears to me to be the best of a mediocre bunch.

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  41. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    @ BWAV

    I can’t really be bothered arguing too much with you. But look at the polls – they’ve tracked nearly dead flat (granted the RWC probably had an affect on this but the numbers predate that RWC haze) for ages and they didn’t take a hit with the Rena (or the RWC for that matter). I just can’t see what Labour can do. Unless they’ve got some neutron bomb dirt on Key or English which I highly doubt. Obviously my parents aren’t proof Labour is set for disaster but for them to switch shows how out of touch Labour is.

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  42. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    Sheesh Polly – what is it with this endless defence of one old white guy leading a pack of sad-eyed, white socialists?

    we’ve always adopted whitey into the culture as tokens of exchange, but once they outlive their usefulness well…

    …what was that gesture Key did in parliament again ?

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  43. Lance (2,309 comments) says:

    @Black with an Agenda

    Are you Trevor Mallards sock puppet?

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  44. mickrodge (27 comments) says:

    Poor Phil…you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

    Me thinks the thread on the jumper has been tugged.

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  45. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    …. we’ve always adopted whitey into the culture as tokens of exchange, but once they outlive their usefulness well ….

    Heh, heh, heh. Well, that did make me laugh. Good to see you’re keeping a sense of humour about this even as the tide of Democratic Capitalism relentlessly rises all around you.

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  46. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,668 comments) says:

    When God made Phil Goff he started at the bottom and worked up. Unfortunately God stopped work when the mouth was installed.

    No eyes, no ears and no brains.

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  47. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    Looking at the DimPost thread I was struck by this comment from leftie-blogger Psycho Milt:

    There must be hardly a govt in history less justified in standing on its economic policy record, and yet they’re not only doing it, they’re getting away with it – which says more about the quality of the Opposition than it does about the govt.

    The reason it struck me is that it seems very revealing of what is being missed in these debates – which is that there really is no debate happening about changing the structures of our society.

    Psycho thinks that National is getting away with a so-so economic record because the Labour opposition is poor quality. Certainly the useless hacks of Labour don’t present well, but it never seems to occur to the left that there simply is no real room on which to argue their differences from National.

    It’s par for the course that hard-core Labour supporters will argue about the huge differences between their lot and National – but that’s just brain-dead partisanship.

    People like Psycho can’t be accused of that or having the aforesaid Manichean worldview. The reason lefties like him can’t see the problem is that they don’t actually think there is anything fundamental to argue about on issues like Superannuation, health, education or government-business links – but are not then prepared to accept that such can only mean arguments in the margins.

    If one is arguing in the margins then of course the quality of the arguments (and the arguers) will degenerate to who is the best “showman” or who people “like” the most. Labour are a poor quality opposition not just because Helen (like Muldoon) left the talent cupboard bare but because all they’re left with are pitiful little arguments about tax rates or new taxes or increases in spending to support the embedded left-wing institutions.

    Aside from the partisans I would have thought the left should be fairly well satisfied with this situation. Little or nothing of what they have built is under threat of destruction by the right. Moreover, this world in aspic gets support from centrists and even many right-wingers as the natural outcome of fighting for the great middle ground anchor of any democracy. Tiny “conservative” changes and twiddling ten thousand rules are a good thing – even if they slowly lead to Greece.

    So no need for the left to despair. The lack of argument is actually a good thing – for them. The moment Labour can find some smooth-talking, “natural” leader that people “like”, they’ll be back in power, along with their more extreme mates, in a heartbeat.

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  48. tvb (3,941 comments) says:

    Pagani has no credibility after this tweet. There is no point him being a pure propagandist for the labor party

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  49. Inventory2 (9,789 comments) says:

    Ross said:

    Did you miss the first leaders’ debate?

    Ross; I won’t post a link to my latest blog-post; it’s easily enough found. But Goff has picked completely the wrong issue on which to attack John Key’s credibility. After all, it’s barely 18 months since a big, red bus drove up and down the land advocating something that Labour has since confirmed it has no intention of doing…

    Phil has missed the bus once again.

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  50. KiwiGreg (3,129 comments) says:

    @ tom that’s pretty depressing.

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  51. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    Good to see you’re keeping a sense of humour about this even as the tide of Democratic Capitalism relentlessly rises all around you.

    But hold on ! what’s that i smell on the winds of change ?…smells like treehugger.

    Win lose or draw, it’ll make little diffrence to me, but for those less fortunate of my kind, it’ll make huge diffrence to have a gov’t in power with a developed social conscience or Key’s lot again.

    I’m hoping the greens will hold the balance of power. Though the thought of Ross Norman as kingmaker doesn’t sit too well, having Metiria in gov’t does.

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  52. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    And Key lied again, last night. talking about earthquake recovery, he said “if the government becomes the insurer I’ll tell you what will happen. The private insurers will leave and they’ll never come back”.

    Blatant lie.

    If private insurers will never come back, why is Key so keen on flogging ACC and why are private insurance companies salivating over getting their hands on ACC?

    When will Key stop lying?

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  53. Black with a Vengeance (1,552 comments) says:

    When will Key stop lying?

    when you sew his lips together

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  54. Murray (8,835 comments) says:

    The greens will hold what they always have, 3/8′s of fuck all.

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  55. slightlyrighty (2,448 comments) says:

    Speaking of money.

    Would Labour still borrow to contribute to the Super Fund?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/5900001/NZ-super-fund-hit-hard-by-world-markets

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  56. ste3e (89 comments) says:

    John Key has learned a new lie. He has learned how to lie that he does not care whether Phil Goff calls him a liar. Such a smooth dude.

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  57. Don the Kiwi (1,325 comments) says:

    Becoming inundated with desperate lefties, I see.

    To coin a phrase, “Diddums”. (The only sensible thing Heilun Klarkenfuhrer had to say in her whole life)

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  58. RightNow (6,338 comments) says:

    Latest lefty troll Steve Jones (siwenjo@gmail.com) turns up to say something incoherent. What’s the matter Steve? Did your artist’s benefit get cut?

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  59. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    MNIJ, do you understand how markets work, and in particular, those markets that deal in risk? No, thought not. You nationalise something, the market flips you a big stiff one – why would it trust you again? Sovreign states that want to be part of a global economy dont do stupid shit like that. Unless you think like Hugo and his mates and think you know better.

    Been to Cuba?

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  60. catwoman (123 comments) says:

    Dene Mckenzie in the Otago Daily Times also reported a win to Goof. Were Pagani and McKenzie watching the same debate as everyone else. Can someone please start up a newspaper in Dunedin that actually reports the facts instead of showing a heavy left bias. ODT is so left leaning it has a bigger list than the Rena.

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  61. BeaB (1,948 comments) says:

    Was Phil a Liar when he said he had bigger balls? Will we ever see that spreadsheet?

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  62. dime (8,752 comments) says:

    i love how upset the left is :)

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  63. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    @ tom that’s pretty depressing.

    From the point of view of political debate and the debate of ideas it is.

    But you could also look at it this way: none of these systems is built for long-term survival.

    In the case of health and retirement they’re all largely pay-as-you-go schemes that will fold as the demographics of an endlessly aging population eat away at their foundations. Health will become ever more reliant on rationing. In the case of education the fast-developing world of on-line learning will similarly pull kids away from the classic classroom, while higher education bankrupts itself as kids walk away from their cheap or free loans, as the Minority Wimins Studies major fails to generate the required income.

    The left’s only answer will be ever-rising tax revenues to feed these beasts; a self-defeating method, not that they’ll accept that.

    I’ve often said that a really extreme right-winger would actually vote left-wing. It’s the surest way to end the insanity – and they won’t even be able to blame the right as they’ll have burnt the institutions down themselves.

    I’d agree that that’s an awfully negative “solution” but, as we see with the PIIGS and most of Europe, it’s probably the only way that change will happen and sustainable civil institutions can be put in place.

    You certainly cannot be hoping that John Key and National will start to make these arguments?

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  64. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,786 comments) says:

    John Key has this election in the bag. Just interested to see how much better his numbers will be on 2008 and how much worse Labours numbers will be.

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  65. jaba (2,068 comments) says:

    it’s possible that the “expert tax panel” are still working through the Cap Gains Tax figures and haven’t had time to do this particular spreadsheet.

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  66. Ross12 (927 comments) says:

    Pagani is obviously in LALA land but I think many of the political commentators and reporters( from both sides) seem be in their own little bubble. Listened Mike Williams and Mathew Houton on ZB the other day talking about the first debate. Both ranked it as a tie as did the reporters in the Dom Post. The both prattled on about it but neither acknowledged that the “exit” vote from the public was 61% to 39% in Keys favour —- isn’t the average voters view that is the most important ? Not these idiots who like to bathe in the limelight on their own little pedestal.

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  67. ross (1,454 comments) says:

    > Will we ever see that spreadsheet?

    Oh you will see it alright. And we’ll all know when you do, because you’ll be whining like a little girl.

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  68. Elaycee (4,067 comments) says:

    I can just imagine how busy the back room beavers are at Liarbore Central – trying to create an Excel formula that delivers the numbers to support Goof’s policy budget manipulations. But I really doubt they’ll be able to find one that automatically inflates their numbers in direct proportion to the amount of extravagance being proffered by the Goof.

    The figures are due to be released tomorrow. This’ll be fun!

    In the meantime, it looks like a late night is on the cards for the ‘economists’ at UNITE, Mt Eden.

    Ain’t that a shame?

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  69. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    … because you’ll be whining like a little girl

    An argument so powerful …..

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  70. RightNow (6,338 comments) says:

    well if ross says it’s so, you know it’s not.
    I’m starting to think he’s Winston

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  71. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    MNIJ feels that private insurers are salivating about getting their hands on ACC.
    Guess what Jack.. when we have some competition in ACC everyone will be better off.
    Especially the self employed who are shafted both ways at present.
    Government run institutions are never able to compete with private enterprise. Double that when
    it’s a government run monopoly. Remember how ACC performed when Labour were in the driving seat with Ruth Dyson at the helm ?
    Best forgotten eh Jack.

    Black with a Vengeance.. What a silly billy you are.

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  72. RightNow (6,338 comments) says:

    but bereal, he’s a symbolic savage suffering nobly…
    http://pollywannacracka.blogspot.com/2011/08/symbolic-savages-suffering-nobly.html

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  73. MyNameIsJack (2,415 comments) says:

    bereal (913) Says:

    November 3rd, 2011 at 12:16 pm
    MNIJ feels that private insurers are salivating about getting their hands on ACC.
    Guess what Jack.. when we have some competition in ACC everyone will be better off.

    So, you agree that Key lied when he said private insurers would leave and never return. thank you.

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  74. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Jeez Jack.. grow up mate.

    Nah nah, na nah nah ! Is that the best you can come up with ?
    And no. Thank YOU Jack.

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  75. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    And Key lied again, last night. talking about earthquake recovery, he said “if the government becomes the insurer I’ll tell you what will happen. The private insurers will leave and they’ll never come back”.

    Hmmm. So Key is saying that if the government becomes a monopoly in a business area, the private sector will leave that area and not return.

    If private insurers will never come back, why is Key so keen on flogging ACC and why are private insurance companies salivating over getting their hands on ACC?

    So if once the goverment stops being a monopoly in a business area, the private sector will return that area.

    And MyMindHasOneNeuron thinks this is contradictory and therefore a “lie”.

    Brilliant! Really fucking brilliant – for National.

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  76. Paulus (2,296 comments) says:

    The privatisation of ACC is a long way off – in years. Forget it.

    To privatise you have to have an alternative market. There isn’t one.

    Insurers in New Zealand are far too busy with Christchurch to enter “once again” the alternative ACC market.

    And they will need Reinsurance which for New Zealand is in very short supply – let alone cost.

    New Zealand in the Reinsurance market is far from the flavour of the decade, and will remain so for quite some time.

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  77. kiwi in america (2,336 comments) says:

    MNIJ
    Your ignorance of markets covered up by populist slogans and typical leftist exaggerated and inflammatory language was mirrored last night by your leader and was why he floundered so badly in Chch.

    What Labour is effectively proposing is to nationalize a particular insurance company and then try and legislate that company to cover properties that a private sector risk driven company adhering to the rules that have governed insurance underwriting for centuries might not. You clearly have no clue as to how insurance markets work. Retail insurers, even one owned by the NZ taxpayer, can only cover a percentage of losses – usually the first $5 million – the rest is reinsured. And as Paulus points out reinsurers are not exactly beating a path to NZ’s door right now. Re insurers are in the business of paying for many of the world’s natural disasters because it is to them that the world’s retail insurers turn. So understandably they have some of the world’s best earthquake experts on their payroll who tell them that large earthquakes can take 1 – 2 years to finally calm down and that while the fault lines are still active, there is a very high risk of even more insurable exposure. THAT is why the home insurers in the Chch market are selective about new underwriting risks – because their exposure to the quake is so high that their reinsurers call all the shots.

    Of course like any true lefty, you believe that legislation is the answer – just pass a law requiring the insurers to underwrite these new policies. Private insurers are exactly that, private and they choose where to write their business. Faced with Venezuelan style socialist interventions, they will grandfather their existing policy holders and exit the Chch market because no one is required to make a guranteed loss. In would step Labour’s newly nationalized insurance company – armed with the legislative mandate to underwrite new policies in suburbs of Chch with riskier soil mapping. Who will reinsure this company? No private sector reinsurer so guess who picks up the tab – you guessed it – the ever weary NZ taxpayer. Now instead of the government being on the hook for the $5b infrastructure build and the $5b replenishment of the EQC, suddenly THEY are the reinsurer taking on perhaps another $10b in reinsurance risk for these high risk properties.

    Ratings agencies would down grade us even further and international lenders, seeing our budget deficit explode even higher, would price sovereign borrowing at Irish and Portugese levels further blowing out the deficit AND forcing business and mortgage borrowers across the country into costly (and recession inducing) increases in their mortgage interest debt.

    Its like the Carter and Clinton Administrations laws that required US banks to make loans to high risk borrowers who normally couldnt get a loan and green lighting the government backed agencies like Fannie and Freddie who bought bundles of these high risk loans in the billions thus fueling a housing and debt bubble that triggered the global financial meltdown. The left never cares and Goff, Black with a Vegence and MNIJ want Labour to provoke a disasterous exit of private insurers from our a 2nd largest city which will absolutely be the unintended consequences of their wish. Pointing out this market reality is NOT lying.

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  78. Lance (2,309 comments) says:

    @KIA
    Stop making sense
    The lefties heads will explode if you link logic to economics

    Just give them a few slogans to mindlessly chant and they will be happy
    Also the best means of defense is attack so the lying left have just discovered if you accuse someone else of lying you can deflect the scrutiny of decades of bald faced lying… just look at Helen Clark and co

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