Barbaric
January 23rd, 2012 at 2:00 pm by David FarrarAP report at Stuff:
Indonesian police say a civil servant who posted “God does not exist” on Facebook faces a maximum penalty of five years behind bars for blasphemy. …
Indonesia, a predominantly Muslim nation of 240 million, recognises the right to practice five other religions. But atheism is illegal.
Atheism is illegal?
Do they also prosecute people for talking about evolution? Or gravity?
What sort of a supreme being needs laws to force people to believe in him? If there is a supreme being, I suspect he is very ashamed of Indonesia.
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January 23rd, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Unfortunately they are one of the more progressive Muslim countries – their last president was a woman. They’re a couple of hundred years ahead of Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 2:36 pm
This is very relevant – it’s the text of Thomas Jefferson’s Act for Establishing Religious Freedom in Virginia. Amazing how some things can continue to be so relevant hundreds of years later.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Great Britain hasn’t quite caught up with Indonesia yet but it is well on its way
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 2:38 pm
The “religion of peace”, the vile Islam, at its worst.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 2:39 pm
One day Indonesia will be free
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 2:47 pm
This is sad and unfortunate, but likely no worse than is happening in the middle east on any given day.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 2:55 pm
Some background in the wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia
The article backs up what I remember from school. Atheism was linked to communism so surpressing one surpressed the other.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 2:56 pm
While we should expect such barbaric behaviour from the Muslim fruitloops lets not kid ourselves that the Christian theomaniacs wouldn’t act similarly if they thought they could get away with it. It’s only a few hundred years back since the Catholics disassociated themselves from witch burning.
[DPF: Don't be silly. The world has changed dramatically in 300 years. We are talking today. What Christian country today makes it illegal to be an atheist?]
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 3:03 pm
@Andrei Yeah, don’t you just hate it when religious groups get offended really easily, believe their religious icons are above critisism, and attempt to shut down the free speech of those who disagree? Http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/6163329/no-repairs-for-slashed-church-billboard
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 3:08 pm
Not quite the same thing, but you’d be surprised at some of the things you see. That was just one nutter, though, not the actual local government afaict, and the laws were ruled unconstitutional decades ago (and have been unconstitutional in principle since the 1860s).
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 3:33 pm
Nick C
Vote:I wish they hadn’t done this, I really do
January 23rd, 2012 at 3:52 pm
I am beginning to think we should ban the entry of any fundamentalist Moslem men. If they have to hide their womenfolk in sacks and masks to stop themselves, as they claim, being driven mad with lust, we really cannot trust them around our daughters and young women showing legs and arms and faces.
Vote:They are saying they cannot control themselves so we surely have to protect our women from their rapacity – not to mention the yuk factor of men whose religious idea of paradise is 70 virgins provided for their own disgusting purposes.
I would much rather have Dotcom and his millions in NZ than creeps like these.
January 23rd, 2012 at 4:07 pm
I have lived in Indonesia for just over 3 and half years. Under the law you must declare you are 1 of the 5 state-approved religions – Buddhist, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim or Protestant – all equally abhorrent in my book given religion is the root of evil.
So obviously I am an Atheist, a bit easier for an expatriate to get away with but on all official forms you still have to list 1 of the 5 official religions, this includes immigration forms (not arrival/departure cards). From memory for my residency I am Catholic, for my bank accounts Buddhist and for my friends wedding in Bali I am Hindu.
Indonesia might have a majority Muslim population (a significant proportion are registered as Muslim but do not follow the religion) but under their constitution they are not an Islamic State. Therefore they could equally be called a Christian country that is making it illegal to be an Atheist.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Here you go Andrei:
http://i.imgur.com/mpQA0.jpg
(Click on the picture to magnify.)
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 4:17 pm
I actually find the violent Christian undertones of American society far more pervasive and concerning than the Islamic undertones in Indonesia.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 4:34 pm
David Farrar says:- “Atheism is illegal?”
I can’t see why. It’s a non-prophet organisation.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Here’s another joke that shouldn’t offend anyone:
An atheist Jew decides to send his son to the local Catholic school, because he thinks the education will be so much better than that of the local public school. He instructs his son to just ignore the religious studies.
Then one day, the boy comes home and tells his father about the holy trinity. “God is in three parts!” he says. “There’s a father, a son, and a holy spirit! What do you think of that Dad?”
Furious, the father admonishes, “I’ll tell you what I think! There’s only ONE God, and we DON’T believe in him! GOT THAT?!!”
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 4:41 pm
As I scan the comments here I see that historical and philosophical depth is still shallow at Kiwiblog.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 4:51 pm
As I read the comment above mine, I see that person’s pride in being a supposedly knowledgeable Christian is reminiscent of the attitude of the Pharisees.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Blasphemous libel is an offence under our crimes act. It doesn’t get enforced because the Attorney General has to agree to it and of course he doesn’t. But we really need to get rid of it permanently so we can hold our head up high and criticize the backwardness of Muslim nations.
Hopefully after the gays, we will move on to Atheists to have their rights protected as well. It’s funny how any nation implementing apartheid would receive strong condemnation. All our political leaders would be up in arms denouncing said nation for such an appalling policy. But the same apartheid policy applied to atheists in many nations around the world and not a whisper.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 5:04 pm
# LeftPilot (48) Says:
January 23rd, 2012 at 4:17 pm
I actually find the violent Christian undertones of American society far more pervasive and concerning than the Islamic undertones in Indonesia.
Really? One country mandates you choose a religion and puts you in jail for being an atheist and the other country has religious and non-religious freedom enshrined in its constitution. I know where I’d rather live.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 5:14 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Ahlquist
http://jesusfetusfajitafishsticks.blogspot.com/2012/01/ahlquist-screenshots-if-by-christian.html
God bless America.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 5:46 pm
Why be surprised or outraged?
Vote:Indonesia is hardly a modern functioning state as we would understand it.
It is a barely disguised military dictatorship that rules over what was the Dutch East Indies.The various ethnicities that lived under Dutch colonialism probably fared much better than they do under current Javanese imperialism
But now that whitey is gone no one ,least of all the UN, gives a shit.
January 23rd, 2012 at 5:58 pm
While working in a hospital in Saudi Arabia I remember some poor chap being bought in by the local Muttawa (religious police) for having questioned a few of Mohameds (PBUH) sayings. A prompt beheading awaited him.
An MRI of the chaps brain could save him from certain death if he was obviously mentally ill. The radiologist (fornicating christian western zionist sympathiser of course) looked at his perfect MRI scan before telling the Muttawa the man’s brain was obviously diseased to have said such things and his life was spared.
Alhamdulillah to modern medicine!
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Weihana (1,292) Says:
January 23rd, 2012 at 5:04 pm
Really? One country mandates you choose a religion and puts you in jail for being an atheist and the other country has religious and non-religious freedom enshrined in its constitution. I know where I’d rather live.
Yeah I’m not framing my view on this one abhorrent state of affairs. The picture that was linked earlier sums it up really. Don’t get me wrong Indonesia isn’t doing so great.
kowtow (1,361) Says:
January 23rd, 2012 at 5:46 pm
Why be surprised or outraged?
Indonesia is hardly a modern functioning state as we would understand it.
It is a barely disguised military dictatorship that rules over what was the Dutch East Indies.The various ethnicities that lived under Dutch colonialism probably fared much better than they do under current Javanese imperialism
But now that whitey is gone no one ,least of all the UN, gives a shit.
Wow. You don’t need to subscribe to Soekarno or Suharto to know that the Dutch Colonialism was brutal and disgraceful. Actions in Timor were equally on par with that. What is happening where I live in Papua is pretty bad but in the rest of Indonesia they fare far better than under Dutch Colonialism where they where largely all authenticities were marginalised.
I’ve been disappointed in SBY’s reform progress slowing down but military dictatorship it is not, in fact military control over certain things continue to decrease, could be fast but SBY is trying to keep things together I guess. There are regular demonstrations and aside from Papua where the thorny issue is separatism it is handled just as any normal democracy would handle it.
The big problem for Papua is the American influence. Grasberg mine is the largest Gold and 3rd largest Copper mine in the world. The annexing of Papua and it’s acceptance by the UN was achieved because of the financial relationship of Suharto with the American’s.
A free an independent Papua is not necessarily in the best interests of the United States and therefore the actions of Indonesian Military and Police will likely continue.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:15 pm
“Indonesian police say a civil servant who posted “God does not exist” on Facebook faces a maximum penalty of five years behind bars for blasphemy. …”
That’s nothing, the Indonesian security apparatus in collusion with corporate Australia, regularly carry out extra-judicial killings in Western Papua because the indigenous population have the temerity to stage political rallies.
Still, why resist a chance to foment up a bit of anti-Muslim fervor.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:33 pm
yep, they’re faring pretty well in Aceh,aren’t they?
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:38 pm
They were given semi-autonomy. In reality they are faring better than they were prior to the end of the insurgency. But their semi-autonomy has allowed them to enforce religious bylaws, which wouldn’t be accepted by the majority of Indonesians.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:41 pm
@Yoza
“Still, why resist a chance to foment up a bit of anti-Muslim fervor.”
Hardly necessary, they are doing a great job themselves showcasing their ‘religion’.
Vote:More than 240 people died at the hands of jihadists in eight countries.
And this was just last week……
January 23rd, 2012 at 6:46 pm
A typical liberal left position: No criticism of any muslim attitudes or behaviours that lead to atrocities – no matter how despicable – is permitted, until all Western injustices (past or present) are acknowledged and dealt with first.
Is that a fair description?
I find barbarism of all flavours despicable, and I think I understand the motivation behind the following; but if you try to invoke a kind of ‘moral welfarism’ that protects “the other” from criticism on principle, regardless of how much it is deserved, you do harm to the liberal project. While bigotry and intolerance against entire religious groups do not help the victims of barbarism and ignorance, neither does indulgent self-flaggellation.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:49 pm
Just as people have died in the name of many other religions. There shouldn’t be a score or death tally count to compare which is the worst. All religion is bad.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:54 pm
Yes, and Islam is the vilest.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 6:56 pm
In the respect that it makes it so hard to get pork, yes.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 7:01 pm
@LP
“Just as people have died in the name of many other religions.”
The difference is ‘have died’ and ‘are dying’.
Vote:And….
More people have died in the name of atheist ideologies (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao) than religious ones.
The Arab invaders of India gave them a run for their money though.
January 23rd, 2012 at 7:09 pm
Yep, any rigid ideology is bad.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 7:13 pm
More people have died in the name of atheist ideologies (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao) than religious ones.
The Arab invaders of India gave them a run for their money though.
Old, long debunked claim Christ-tard. Atheism is a negative..it has nothing to base actions upon….Communism’s atrocities were based upon positive beliefs in Marxism and determinism…not a lack of a belief in a made up ghost.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Lots of pants wetting from the no-godder libertarians today…..
Hahahahahha
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 8:05 pm
Beab
Vote:There is already extensive evidence of muslim men being involved in sex crimes..Importing them is the surest way to increase your gang rape rate..Do some research yourself. The Lebanese in Aussie…..Bilal Skaff etc , horrendous crimes all over Scandanavia..the grooming of young white girls in the UK etc etc..There has also been similar crimes here but they get little attention. Several rapes in Wgtn , plus here in CHCh. If you look up the NZ sex offenders list , you can read a lot of detail there.
January 23rd, 2012 at 8:08 pm
@The Scorned
Granted, make that non-religious ideologies.
Vote:As for Christ-tard…..
Where do you base that on?
Or are you just showing off your fashionable bigoted Christian hate side?
Bit of a ‘progressive’ tic?
January 23rd, 2012 at 8:23 pm
Dazzaman
Say what you will but at least we atheists are not selfish.
I for one am happy to accept a minor setback now & again if only it brings a little mirth & maybe a smile to your otherwise sad, miserable, Christianity saturated life.
Blessed are the Fundamentalists, for they shall inhibit the earth.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 8:36 pm
Blasphemy rules have lasted in many Western countries nonetheless. I don’t think UK repealed theirs until recently (2008?). 20th C still featured prosecutions for blasphemy. The Polish pop singer Doda was recently convicted of the offence and faced a potential sentence of 2 years.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 8:44 pm
“Say what you will but at least we atheists are not selfish.”
Does Richard Dawkins, the world’s most famous atheist agree with that?
Vote:In his book called ‘The Selfish Gene’ he suggests that ‘we are born selfish’.
The Midgley–Dawkins debate is interesting in this respect.
January 23rd, 2012 at 8:53 pm
The book, The Selfish Gene is a book on biology- not atheism. And the key point is that cooperation between social organisms is a very effective way for selfish genes to perpetuate.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Other_Andy
I’ve never read any of Richard Dawkin’s work although I should have. In fact I would have little evidence in this case that atheists are more or less selfish than theists.
I couldn’t, however, let a little detail like that prevent me from extending the hand of help to the God stalkering fundies on this thread.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 9:12 pm
Chthoniid
“The book, The Selfish Gene is a book on biology- not atheism.”
That is what the Midgley–Dawkins debate is about…..
Vote:She and others argue that the book goes beyond the biological arguments.
January 23rd, 2012 at 9:24 pm
Yes, it’s always funny how people like Midgley- who aren’t biologists suddenly feel they have more expertise in biology than the say, people who study biology.
My recommendation is to actually read the damn book. It’s a very good outline of the biological mechanisms of the evolution of altruism. It has nothing to do with atheism.
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 9:28 pm
Told you, want a hankie?….pft
Vote:January 23rd, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Other_Andy 6:41 pm “Hardly necessary, they are doing a great job themselves showcasing their ‘religion’.
More than 240 people died at the hands of jihadists in eight countries.
And this was just last week……”
adze 6:46 pm “A typical liberal left position: No criticism of any muslim attitudes or behaviours that lead to atrocities – no matter how despicable – is permitted, until all Western injustices (past or present) are acknowledged and dealt with first.
In an effort to maximise their control over the extraction, refining and distribution of the planets resources Western corporations, through their control of Western governments, have promoted totalitarian regimes in countries where those resources are most intensively concentrated. States across the Middle East, with their massive reserves of oil, are the most obvious example of this Western state/corporate behaviour.
The political process in these countries becomes so distorted by the totalitarian systems that the only place political dissent or any kind of gathering can take place is the local mosque. The rise of ‘radical’ Islam and the fomenting of fundamentalism is largely a consequence of rapacious Western imperial violence. Perhaps somebody on this site could point to a country that has not been the victim of occupation by Western troops or Western support of a vicious totalitarian regime that has a history of violent terrorism.
The violent acts committed by Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists in the name of religion are insignificant in comparison to the violence perpetrated by Western military establishments against Muslims, violent acts with the sole purpose of augmenting the commercial objectives of Western corporations. Western violence has had the disproportionate effect of being the progenitor of the preponderance of violent acts committed ‘in the name of Islam’.
The reason the Military/Industrial complexes of the more powerful Western countries have been able to carry out, or support, the industrial scale massacres throughout the Islamic world is because Muslims have been reduced to the status of ‘unpeople’, they no longer pass the benchmark required to pass themselves off as human so they can be eliminated, and are eliminated, without consequence. Western populations have been cultivated to accept and largely ignore the slaughter.
If anyone would like to witness the kind of bigoted intolerance that the media is attempting to foment we need only look to some of the contributors to this thread:
Manolo 6:54 pm “All religion is bad. Yes, and Islam is the vilest.”
I would argue that the worship of money and power are, far and away, the vilest of faiths.
And then there is this particularly bigoted outburst:
joana 8:05 pm “There is already extensive evidence of muslim men being involved in sex crimes..Importing them is the surest way to increase your gang rape rate..Do some research yourself. The Lebanese in Aussie…..Bilal Skaff etc , horrendous crimes all over Scandanavia..the grooming of young white girls in the UK etc etc..There has also been similar crimes here but they get little attention. Several rapes in Wgtn , plus here in CHCh. If you look up the NZ sex offenders list , you can read a lot of detail there.”
Men, regardless of their religious persuasion, are disproportionately represented as perpetrators of violent acts of non-consensual sex, singling out Muslim men as the worst offenders is an example the kind of bigotry the main stream media seems to be attempting to generate.
Vote:January 24th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Yoza
Vote:You quoted me so I’m assuming your post addresses my point in part. Quoting a litany of Western injustices does not answer it, however; few argue that Western governments haven’t committed atrocities in the past (or even the present). My question is, does this mean that criticism of Muslim practices or atrocities committed by Muslim governments or groups is inappropriate? If so, why? Bear in mind some practices predate Western colonization.