Child abuse questions
January 26th, 2012 at 2:37 pm by David FarrarHolly Walker blogs at Frog Blog:
The release of these studies comes while Social Development Minister Paula Bennett is in the middle of an intensive road trip consulting on her Green Paper for Vulnerable Children. She was in my town, Lower Hutt, last night, and in Whangarei earlier this week while I was there. From local reports, it sounds like the consultation process has been somewhat fraught, with locals in Whangarei frustrated that the Minister wasn’t open to hearing from people directly, insisting instead that they “put it in a submission“. Nevertheless I applaud the proactive way that the Government has approached the task of consulting on the Green Paper – they’ve really gone all out with meetings, websites, social media, and NGO engagement. Submissions close on 28 February and I do encourage you to make one.
It’s good that Holly is encouraging submissions, and encouraging participation in the process.
I’ve heard from those who were at the Lower Hutt meeting last night that the cost of living and inequality were are major theme of responses from the audience, but that the Minister’s focus was very much on reporting and information-sharing. …
Until we address child poverty and inequality, we can’t hope to make serious inroads on the child abuse issue.
I don’t accept that child abuse is just about child poverty and inequality. There are Asian countries with much greater poverty and inequality that have almost no child abuse.
While I commend Holly for her post, and promoting the green paper consultation, could I suggest MPs “eat their own dogfood” so to speak. Rather than rely on third hand reports of what was said at a local meeting, I would hope local MPs would go along and attend.
I understand there were 150 people at the meeting in Lower Hutt, including six National MPs. Labour and other parties have been calling for a bi-partisan approach to child abuse. So I would have though local MPs would go along to hear what their communities are saying. But none on non-National MP attended – despite all being invited.
I think it would be of more importance than a Frocks on Bike bike maintenance workshop. Frocks on Bikes is a commendable initiative, but I do think it is a pity none of the local MPs actually attended the meeting, and heard first hand what people were saying. I recall Metiria Turei attending the launch of the green paper, which was commendable.
I don’t think you can declare an issue will be bi-partisan or non-partisan as different parties have genuinely different beliefs on how to reduce child abuse. National will believe their welfare reforms will help reduce child abuse, while the Greens will disagree (for example). But despite those differences in beliefs, there is no reasons people can’t take part in the process, and have their views heard. I do not believe the Government in any way has pre-determined outcomes on this review. There are no easy solutions, so whatever decisions do eventually get made will inevitably upset some segments of the community.
UPDATE: Holly has commented below, explaining she was running the session she attended and had agreed to do so back in November. But she did send her EA to take notes.
January 26th, 2012 at 2:43 pm
I hate the term ‘child poverty’. My kids are poor. They have no money of their own, no source of income and no possessions not donated to them by the charity of their parents.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 2:49 pm
Maybe the opposition MPs don’t think the Government is taking this exercise very seriously, and are participating accordingly. After all, one consultation paper isn’t a hell of a lot to show after more than 3 years in power.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Brian,
Vote:i am probably going to regret this but what would you call it then?
January 26th, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Community meeting schedule:
http://www.childrensactionplan.govt.nz/home/community-meetings
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Footage of the Whangarei meeting shown on TV1 last night indicated that people are passionate about reducing or eliminating child abuse within their communities but are looking to the government to take a leading role.
Vote:Paula Bennett faced a relatively lively crowd who were keen to express their anger and frustration and hopefully through the submission process their views may contribute to policy developement.
January 26th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
David,
“There are Asian countries with much greater poverty and inequality that have almost no child abuse.”
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but this assertion strikes me as surprising. What do you base it on? When I think of poor Asian countries I think of children being put in slave labour, prostitution and often going without the essentials like education and health care. So maybe they aren’t being bashed to death but I would hardly describe that single factor as demonstrating a lack of child abuse.
Come to think of it, of course they wouldn’t bash the kid to death when the kid has nifty little fingers with which to stitch together the shoes we wear. On the other hand many baby girls are deliberately killed in China for want of a boy.
Anyway, what countries in particular are you thinking of?
[DPF: Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, South Korea]
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:10 pm
“Poverty” and “inequality” seem to be stock Green PR obsessions but are far too vague to mean much. If they stopped to think it through they should figure it’s a lot more complex than that.
If you give more money to a violent thug what do you get?
I managed to survive an at times poverty-like childhood (income-wise) without an angry hand laid on me by anyone in my family.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Most abused children will come from single parent households where there may be a stream of live-in boyfriends. Research on abused children always shows that children that live with biological married parents are safer and do much better over all than children from any other relationship type.
So is the Government going to maybe encourage marriage and lifelong commitment as essential to the successful raising of children?
No, because this situation has been created by successive Governments through their sex education in schools and payment of benefits to teenagers to have babies and equating cohabitators with married couples and making marriage easy to walk away from for no other reason than one of the spouses not wanting to be married any more.
A woman who was a single parent herself is highly unlikely to say marriage is safest for children, so the whole thing is tainted from the beginning with Paula Bennet in charge. Replace her with a married man with children and we will probably get a more reasonable outcome.
The whole reporting thing is very disturbing, it seems to be just an excuse for increased surveillance on the population by the Government. A typical totalitarian move when you join it to the anti-smacking legislation of a few years back, which National still hasn’t repealed despite the mandate to do so.
It just gets worse and worse.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
David Farrar says:- “There are Asian countries with much greater poverty and inequality that have almost no child abuse.”
What, like Thailand and Cambodia for instance? And we only know about it because of child sex tourism.
Most of the child prostitutes in Thailand are from poor rural migrant families who have been displaced by larger more efficient farming operations and have been forced to move to the city to find work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sex_tourism
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:43 pm
David Farrar says:- “Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, South Korea”…
in support of this claim:
“There are Asian countries with much greater poverty and inequality that have almost no child abuse.”
Errm, all those countries are richer than us. You’re arguing against yourself here aren’t you?
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Surely Taiwan etc. are highly developed countries comparable to our own in terms of standard of living and inequality. Though the question still remains as to why they have less abuse.
Aside from culture, I think it’s probably because we encourage feral people to breed in order for them to escape their obligation to work. I think this is tied to poverty in the sense that some people grow up in conditions such that they consider the DPB reasonable to live on. But the main reason they breed is to escape the obligation to work. Either removing the benefit or removing the obligation to work (without the requirement to breed) would seem to be ways we could discourage breeding.
It would be interesting to see what the birth rate for different income groups is in Asian countries compared to New Zealand. Even just the birth rate overall might be indicative.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Well said Lucia Maria
And I would add im sick to the back teeth of hearing pollies the media and other banging on about how its MY problem.
OK folks If its MY problem then let ME sort it out for you.
No more paying breeders who cant provide for their offspring. Sterialise them if necessary.
Take children away from potential abusive situations. Apply the same rules DOL apply in OSH situations.
Identify the hazard.
It aint rocket science and never has been. We need to drop kick the dumb arses and start applying some common sense to the problem.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 3:55 pm
BTW NZ had much much worse economic conditions in the 1930s Depression WITHOUT the child abuse.
Child abuse is about bad parentin. People who lack the necessary skills to raise children.
Just imagine if we let people fly planes on the same basis as we let the bastards breed. CHAOS would reign.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:00 pm
There is shocking child abuse in Singapore , Malaysia and South Korea. Where does the no child abuse notion come from? It sounds like a myth. Chinese in Malaysia are really brutal to their children. Amongst the Malays , there is lot of sexual. abuse.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Thanks for the post David. We obviously disagree about the role of income and financial stress in contributing to child abuse and neglect, which is fine. Can I just clarify why I wasn’t at the meeting last night – I wasn’t just attending the Frocks on Bikes workshop, I was running it, and booked and arranged it back in November when the programme for the Hutt City Council’s Summer of Cycling was set. I would have loved to have attended the Green Paper meeting, but without reneging on a commitment I made months ago there was no way I could. My EA attended and took notes, which is where I got my “third hand reports” from. There is also already existant a cross-party group in Parliament established last term to work on issues of child poverty and inequality. We’re really keen to engage across party lines as much as possible on this issue. So far the only members are from the Greens, Labour, and the Maori Party – no National MPs have shown any interest in it.
Cheers,
Vote:Holly
January 26th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
What is it about being poor that makes people want to hurt children?
or put another way,
What is it about money that makes those possessing it better people?
Greens, if you want to claim an irrefutable causal link between poverty and child abuse, such that no effort can fix the problem while poverty still exists, you are essentially saying rich people are better than poor ones because of the influence of money.
The problem is that you are implying that this holds for no other reason than that the rich have more money, ignoring all other possible reasons, including many that might explain both the poverty AND the abuse.
I cant help thinking that your desire for a simple solution has led you to believe this is a simple problem. And that your desire for simplicity corrupts your interpretation of the scientific investigations. You see a simple problem, and you know what the solution is, and ALL the evidence supports you. All part of your unending drive to feel as if you are helping.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
If we can find a way of addressing alcohol and other drug abuse (including ‘don’t give a stuff’ green), plus address gambling, we could go a long way toward sorting out a lot of poverty and abuse.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Joana,
Sounds like you are right. A quick google seems to indicate that they abuse their children just as we do. So yeah I’m not sure where the “almost no child abuse” notion came from. I’m not sure how we all stand though by comparison.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Ok. How would the people on this site combat child abuse from a right-wing perspective? Actual solutions that could be implemented by a democratic government please, not “We need to drop kick the dumb arses”.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Pete George,
It seems like we all have things we want to highlight as being factors involved in child abuse. Some say poverty and inequality, some say it’s the breakdown of marriage and sex education in schools, some say it’s drugs and alcohol. Yet the reality is that most poor people do not abuse their kids. Most parents in a defacto or single parent household do not abuse their kids. Most people who consume alcohol and/or drugs do not abuse their kids. Most people who gamble do not abuse their kids.
Perhaps the fundamental problem is trying to boil down a very complex situation into something simple and easy to manage. Or perhaps the answer is to address all these issues simultaneously. Or perhaps some people are just downright scummy people that are beyond fixing.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
samtheman – not from a right wing perspective but from a common sense perspective, if we can substantially cut alcohol, tobacco, cannabis and other drug use substantially we will cut violence, abuse and crime and will improve health and education – and many people will have more money to spend for the god of their kids.
Weihana – yes, it is far more complex than the ‘fix it now we’re not in power’ approach of Greens suggests. But alcohol and drugs figure very highly in most of the negative factors.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Pete – that sounds pretty constructive, how would you achieve it?
(No sarcasm here I’m actually interested – it’s really hard to convey a non-sarcastic tone on political blogs!)
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:38 pm
Before the meeting commenced was the problem identified i.e Were a profiles of child abusers and abused children presented or was it all a broad-brush discussion assuming that all segments of the population were equally perpetrators and victims.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:38 pm
Hong Kong is another and I’d bet Macau too .
Child abuse will continue here. It is a by product of a “progressive”, relativist society.Many of the symptoms of which are sadly proclaimed on this blog.
We are disdainful of our long cherished and formerly held values of the Judeo Christian tradition.Of our interest and historical ties to the old country.Of hard work and personal responsibility. We are obsessed with celebrities ,public displays of sexuality (of any and all sorts) with lifestyles, with animal rights and environmentalism,with shopping and possessions. With cafes, pubs and holidays.
We have no grounding ,no national identity, nothing to be proud of. We apologise for just about everything and are constantly seeking to change things that don’t need changing. Our flag,our constitution,our monarchy,our national day,the very place names of our towns ,cities and country.
And we end up with unemployed,or an under employed,dog owning ,unmarried, drug addled underclass supported by a struggling middle and working class who are left to pick up the pieces and a government that thinks it’s their job to bring up other peoples children.
It’s got nothing to do with poverty and everything to do with values.And values are old fashioned and naff.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:39 pm
I have lived in those parts so saw it first hand..I think a comparison is always going to be difficult because you get into issues of reported and unreported abuse. When I came back here I was astonished to hear kiwis says .. Asians are so tender with their kids..What I saw was the complete opposite , cruelty in abundance.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
kowtow,
Right, because people of the Judeo-Christian tradition never abuse kids.
(Yes that is intended to be sarcastic).
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
Child poverty might well be a misnomer – perhaps we should really refer to families around the poverty line (that impacting the environment their children live in.)
That aside, there are three obvious ways to respond to this:
1. Do nothing. I am glad to be a citizen of a country that doesn’t regard that as acceptable.
2. Dole out welfare payments. Aside from historical evidence showing us that this doesn’t actually solve the problem, the reality is that welfare assistance will only ever provide a subsistence-level (or marginally better) income. {There are very real economic and social reasons for this – which are not for this thread, however the electorate reaction to Labour’s failed election bribe of WfF for non-workers helps to illustrate these.]
3. Actually do something to enable those families to lift themselves out of poverty – eduction [employment relevant], skills-training, mentoring, management assistance, etc. Actions that can help those families to work and participate within society for their, and their childrens’, betterment.
And that (3) is why National’s policies are the only real means to address ‘child poverty’ [sustainably.] It really is a case of the “give a man a fish/teach a man to fish” axiom.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
First of all, the solution will not work because it came from a ‘right-wing perspective’. I think that indicates your own biases shining through. You could have just asked how we would combat child abuse. You didnt need to add the last bit. So why did you?
To answer, I dont know.
Child abusers are arrogant, selfish and stupid. How do you combat that?
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
samatheman – that’s the hard part, and why it hasn’t been addressed successfully yet. But it explains a bit about why just giving people more money isn’t a fix all solution as some seem to think. If you give an alcoholic or drug addict or gambler more money there’s a good bet their kids won’t benefit much.
National are trying to address it with targetted groups on benefits by having cards with limitations on what they can be spent on. There’s a lot of opposition to that, and it doesn’t address working people with those problems.
So I don’t have any easy answers, but I think that’s the area where we have to do some hard looking and talking. It involves changing attitudes, aspirations, giving more support and hope and opportunity but also finding ways of getting people to do more for themselves.
Even if that can be done it’s a long hard road. Violence and abuse are entrenched behaviours learnt through generations. How do you teach violent people non-violent behaviour? Some people and organisations are trying now, but working at the tip of an iceberg. Giving the violence abusers more money won’t address this either.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:51 pm
And we have to acknowledge that many violent abusers and aiders and abetters of violent abusers are not poor.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Pete,
…if we can substantially cut alcohol, tobacco, cannabis and other drug use substantially we will cut violence, abuse and crime and will improve health and education – and many people will have more money to spend for the god of their kids.
I disagree. Most people who use alcohol, tobacco or cannabis do not abuse their kids. So I don’t agree reducing consumption overall will necessarily realize the benefits you suggest unless consumption is reduced amongst that population that is involved in violence and crime.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Thats the rub, weihana.
Many of the solutions to child abuse will likely involve a reduction in freedom for all.
Consider a license to reproduce. You could stop alcoholics from reproducing (as per PG’s identification of the problem), or even stop poor people from having any kids (as per the Greens ID). But the reduction in freedom for everyone is not worth the cost.
The reality is, we will not do anything to reduce child abuse.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Kimble – I asked for a right wing perspective because the left’s general solution is well known – “reduce income inequality and poverty (typically by redistribution)”. This solution has received a lot of criticism, but not a lot of alternatives. Despite being on the left I don’t really think redistribution will solve anything, in fact I have no idea how this problem can be solved, so I asked for alternative ideas. I completely agree with your assessment of child abusers, and to be honest I think the best we can hope for is to make sure their children don’t become abusers themselves.
Pete – I thought the idea of ‘benefit cards’ was a good one. The technology exists for it to be done cheaply, and I think the government has the right to demand some responsibility in exchange for a benefit cheque. It won’t stop drug abusers selling a card with $100 on it for $50 worth of drugs, of course.
The question is, why didn’t National extend the card to all beneficiaries, as opposed to the very few 16 & 17 year olds on the benefit, who should be able to buy cigarettes or alcohol anyway?
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Kimble says:- “Child abusers are arrogant, selfish and stupid. How do you combat that?”
Yup, and that’s why a lot of them are poor as well.
What to do? Intervene.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Consider the old 80/20 rule. The 80% do reasonably well under all circumstances; wouldn’t hurt kids. 10% are exemplary under all circumstances and never hurt kids. 10% do very badly under any circumstances and frequently hurt kids. This 10% of a population of about 4 million people, adjusted for all the expected statistical yada yada leaves not that many people. Why is it then that a supposedly 1st world country with all available technology and resources is still struggling to identify and rectify the problem? Any clear thinking person must already have identified the issue. Rectifying the problem however will never happen as long as it remains politically dangerous to be entirely honest and face the wrath of PC idealogues who would resist any practical measures. It’s a farce. Let’s be honest. Other people abusing children disturbs us, but the only effective solutions are too hard to swallow. And it’s not , ahem, your child or mine.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
Yes, Nanny State will cure it all.
Vote:By the way, very well said, mara.
January 26th, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Yeah, thats my point from earlier.
How the Greens solution to make them “arrogant, selfish, stupid, but not poor” can possibly help escapes me.
The counterpart to a left-wing non-solution isnt a right-wing solution. Its just a solution.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:32 pm
samtheman:
Just get rid of the whole Ministry of Social Development.
Vote:It wouldn’t solve all the child abuse problems, but it could be a start…
January 26th, 2012 at 5:32 pm
Much of the child abuse that happens in NZ can be put down to what’s known as “kick the cat syndrome”. In extremely hierarchical systems people tend to pick on the ones beneath them in the pecking order. The further down the hierarchy the individual is, the more likely they are going to pass on the abuse to their children. So inequality has a lot to do with it. Anyone with a basic understanding of human nature knows this.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:40 pm
Wetfootmammal – there’s a flaw to that. You can’t make a one year old equal to a 20 year old druggie step father, or 25 year old mother who’s spent all her money on the pokies. And you are trying to stop them from becoming equal to the parents that learned reactive violent behaviour when they were kids.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:46 pm
Statistics point strongly to alcohol.
And that doesn’t count drugs.
Cannabis can’t be discounted form this either, due to financial factors and neglecting responsibilities.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:52 pm
Point taken pete. With some people, having a more equal place in society will not help. My comment is on human nature in general. We evolved in small hunter-gatherer tribes where everyone had more or less the same standard of living. It’s not natural for us to see other primates living in an all together different world. It’s not natural to have to live in a mini dictatorship, such as the de-unionised NZ work place is. The human spirit is turned mean in such circumstances. Look at the most evil societies that have existed in human history – they have always been the most hierarchical ones. Food for thought.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
PG – alcohol is symptom as well as cause.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 6:01 pm
Thanks Manolo.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
I’m aware alcohol (and gambling and drug abuse) is a symptom as well as a cause, that’s the nature of the complexities.
I think most societies haven’t been equal, there has long been (maybe since trees or before) to have hierarchies in groups, it’s very common throughout nature.
Many people don’t want to be equal anyway. Sue many of us would like a heap more money, but don’t realise that brings problems of it’s own. Enjoyment of life and happy families are not dependent on wealth and possesions.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
samtheman (27) Says:
January 26th, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Ok. How would the people on this site combat child abuse from a right-wing perspective? Actual solutions that could be implemented by a democratic government please, not “We need to drop kick the dumb arses”.
Well at the meeting shown on tv1 last night an older Maori lady stod up and said quite forcefully, “you people have missed the point, What our people need are jobs. ”
And that’s so true.
Young people have been discriminated against in the job market. Our jobs have been offshored because the Govt. has made it too expensive to do things in NZ and worse their only answer is to push people either further done the unemployment road or further down the debt road by leaving all those blockages in place or vilify then for being unable to create a job.
Creating meaningful useful jobs is a role of Govt.
Want to solve the problem then remove the barriers to employment and do things like instituting training on the job which is basically non existent now becuase of the cost.
Break down the barriers between young people and adults and employers.
Remove barriers that rob people of pride in workmanship and allow them to participate in a workforce regardles of their level of education.
Most of the really wealthy people you know didn’t do much at school or university. Jobs and Gates didn’t,
Learning is everyday including at work, play and much is driven by a passion for the pursuit of ones dreams.
Create a constancy of purpose for improvement in the NZ economy, business and the wealth of NZers. Develop that constancy via removing barriers to it being achieved. Adopt it as a National Philosophy
Put every citizen to work to achieve it.
Sound difficult. Not with good leadership and removal of party politics.
Reinstatement of the youth rate was voted down in Parliament last year 104 to 7. The seven being ACT. All the rest independently minded well paid representatives of our commmunity from all the socialist parties voted in block to refuse the bill. (including the very Lady who is now running around wasting time and money on looking foir solutions. Did she listen to that lady last night. I doubt it.)
THERE WAS NO INTEGRITY IN THAT VOTE. NONE AT ALL.
WITHOUT INTEGRITY THERE IS NOTHING.
It absolutley defies the truth to say that not one of the 104 didn’t want to vote for the legislation and worse it defies the representation of thousands of people who either were to young to vote or who were ignored in the process. ( or perhaps they didn’t care.?)
Its parliament at it most dishonest.
Why when young people see and hear this type of dishonesty would they think there is a future here. They don’t and if you think otherwise then you are not listening anymore.
Generation C (C for connected) are rising up and unless we tackle these employment issues head on and ASAP we have a problem. The world is full of unemployed, unemployed educated, and more and they are restless as we can see from what’s happening oversea’s.
The are smarter than most us (and that includes you) and they are connected and they are seriously pissed off.
Time to shake of the shackles and the fears and open the world to the young.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Not with good leadership and removal of party politics.
I agree with, it won’t be possible to remove party politics but it’s feasible to significantly reduce the part it plays. That’s pretty much what’s behind the project we are working in in Dunedin.
Every person elected to parliament should put the needs of the country and the people first – there will be differences in how they want to achieve what needs doing but the priority should be on finding common ground with common sense, or agreeing to differ, rather than the polarising politics that’s far too much the first instinct.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 7:35 pm
Is being maori a symptom or a cause ?
80% of child deaths due to assault
4 times more likely to end up in hospital due to abuse
Then there is the hidden ones those that dont make the statistics
maori culture is abusive to kids
Its not a poverty of wealth
Vote:its a poverty of the culture
January 26th, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Yep, and how do we change the culture, get people working so they get educated about life by mixing with others. Get them working so they get away from doing nothing and feeling unwanted. Give them pride and a will to be useful.
Vote:Not at all hard to do.
January 26th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
I see it took a while for Griff to chime in with the assertion that child abuse is a Maori problem.
If Maori culture is abusive to kids, then how is it abusive? Was it always so?
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
The National Party ‘solution’ is already evident and manifest in the comments on this site. The ‘solution’ to the problem of child abuse is to kick the crap out of those at the bottom of the socio-economic heap while chanting ‘personal responsibility’ and ‘self reliance’.
I can tell you now that this ‘solution’ will only increase the incidence of child abuse and as a ‘solution’ is as ridiculous as DPF’s suggestion that, “There are Asian countries with much greater poverty and inequality that have almost no child abuse.’ like ” Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, South Korea.” (a quick Google search soon dispels that delusion.)
Child abuse, like drug abuse; alcohol abuse; domestic violence; depression; disease; or any other damaging condition is exacerbated by financial hardship, the greater the financial hardship of the target communities the more prevalent the damaging conditions.
The very real problem facing the children who are victims of abuse in New Zealand is they are too poor to matter, sure it makes a few well heeled people cringe when they see the photo of a beautiful child that has been bashed to death, but aside from that the violently abused poor child is relatively invisible.
The growing number of poor in New Zealand are testament to the ‘success’ of ‘solutions’ like Rogernomics, the only thing that matters is that the rich are getting richer.
The National Party care that poor kids are getting bashed, Pffft. The problem here is the embarrassment the battered corpses of defenceless children appearing in the media is causing a smug elite.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
The polls during the large election actually showed that people cared a lot more about the poverty gap and child abuse than the leaders knew. My challenge is to do what you can personally. If you are an employer pay fairly and look to pay more, if you are a landlord don’t look for every last cent and treat your tenants with the dignity the best you can, if you can, become engaged with people of any culture with the possibility of helping them with your experience, education or something which may benefit them, be tough when necessary and not always freely forgiving – give it a try. At the least it can take feelings of helplessness away and perhaps at the other end give empowerment, but what it might most of all is relieve you of the burden of looking for enemies or someone to blame among those that need help. Ultimately you may even end up liking yourself – for free.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 8:31 pm
Why is this a topic?
We as a country have horrific Rates of child abuse
Is it an identifiable sector?
Yes maori
How do we know?
Statistical analysis
Where do we need to make an effort?
Where is the moari leadership?
why is it ok to go to court to vocally support a sick child rapist?
why do cyfs continue to leave kids with this sick culture?
why do we pay them to breed?
Is the problem “ours” to solve?
Yes milky mild it was a part of the pre contact culture
Vote:not to the kids of your tribe
other kids nom nom nom rape kill eat
January 26th, 2012 at 8:34 pm
That’s nothing more than uninformed (or deliberately ignorant) propaganda. The abusive approach to alternate views is as much a part of the problem of finding solutions as anything.
Abuse comes in many forms, and they are all detrimental to making progress on this.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 8:53 pm
And up chimes Yoza to prove my point.
Why is it that the Left is convinced that money solves everything, but haughtily slander the Right as being obsessed with money?
This isnt a rhetorical question. Its because they are hypocritical cunts.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 8:56 pm
As long as we legally protect the ultimate in child abuse, the killing of our babies in the womb, we will never see the end to child abuse – because in legalising abortion, we continue to degrade the value of human life.
Vote:Until we can, as a nation, instil respect for life at all stages, we won’t solve a thing.
January 26th, 2012 at 9:00 pm
I am sure the next drunken, stoner, brain dead slob who bashes an infant to death will be doing so because of his lack of respect for the child brought about by a law he has absolutely no knowledge of.
Not.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Busy people are happy people, get everyone to work.
Actually beating up on the unemployed is an abuse in itself when we are lacking the necessary jobs, just as discrimation of the young preventing them from obtaining paid employment is abuse.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
DPF’s Asians as Saintly Parents myth has been deservedly skewered by others, especially, brilliantly, by Scott Chris.
But, as if so often the case, DPF creates his own straw man when he interprets Holly as saying that child abuse is only about poverty and inequality when, in fact, she says that addressing those concerns is where we need to start.
I’m not sure if I agree that it is our starting point, but it certainly needs to be addressed.
I am sure that there will be many hypocrites posting here who moaned long and hard about losing their right to whack their kids with impunity, too.
Statistics show that the world over, indigenous peoples who have been conquered and colonized, marginalized and discriminated against, suffer from disproportionately greater levels of ills like child abuse and general crime.
Lets start by abandoning our reservations to UNDRIP, which included not recognising the right of self-determination of our indigenous people. This would open the door to a new start for Tuhoe and other tribes. Autonomy within a sovereign nation is a mature model, and one we should be pursuing.
Then, if the only way that works to reduce inequality is redistribution, let’s do that, but I would suggest that creating genuine, meaningful work opportunities, not McJobs, would be better if only we could figure out how.
And I disagree with DPF that the Poverty Commission has not already got predetermined goals – Bill English knows exactly where it is heading and it ain’t going to be anywhere enlightened!
Finally, since most abused children are from non-Maori households, we need, as well as all the above, to develop a campaign to simply shame people into not even thinking about it!
One of the triumphs of the anti-apartheid movement was that it turned the word itself into a dirty one – let’s do the same for those who abuse our kids.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:09 pm
“That’s nothing more than uninformed (or deliberately ignorant) propaganda.”
Oh, really! I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the National Parties ‘solution’ will involve using this country’s domestic security apparatus to become more forcefully involved in reported incidences of domestic violence and suspected incidences of child abuse and that the level of the intensity of that scrutiny will be largely dependant on the relative poverty of the target – the poorer the family the greater the negative state attention. Furthermore, I can also say, without fear of contradiction, that this approach will not effect the amount of children killed as a result of abuse.
If economic/financial deprivation is not a significant contributing factor to the death of children killed as a consequence of a violent assault, I would like to see an example. Considering the amount of children killed in New Zealand due to violent assault it should be relatively easy for apologists of the ‘successes’ of market forces, Pete George, to provide examples that disprove the conclusion that children being killed as a direct consequence of violence are evenly distributed across the socio-economic spectrum.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:12 pm
One of the triumphs of the anti-apartheid movement was that it turned the word itself into a dirty one – let’s do the same for those who abuse our kids.
And caused much poverty to Africans along the way.
Vote:Caused employers to abandon the State of South Africa for other states and then export into Sth Africa.
Caused Sth African goods to be dumped so Sth African exporters couldn’t employ people any more.
Bunch of unintended consequences that people like you luc consider to be a means to end without a thought about the sifferers.
But then I don’t suppose you even know about that do you. (or even care).
January 26th, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Permanent enslavement is the only option, then, according to you, VS.
But that also goes hand in hand with child abuse.
Oh, what conundrums simple folk encounter.
Don’t forget that part of the deal was that the indigenous people had to take on white SA debts and the white man’s neoliberal policies – expecting an enlightened, modern country to arise form those ashes overnight is the height of stupidity.
Iowa state motto – Live free or die.
At least the Africans can begin to chart their own course now.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:29 pm
And autonomy would help how? You pulled that straight out your hairy arse without any explanation of its relevance other than some wish-washy reference to a “new start”.
Perhaps you meant that autonomy is necessary to allow different rules governing a particular group of people, distinct from others? That some people in this country need to have stricter rules, because they arent like the rest of us? Is that it? Why not come out and say it you coward?
You think that Maori need to be treated differently to non-Maori, but you dont want to sound racist, so you say the solution is “autonomy”, hoping that everyone will take the genuine solution as implied.
So what is it exactly that could be achieved with “autonomy within a sovereign state” that could not be achieved right now?
McJobs? Go fuck yourself you sanctimonious turd. That dismissive attitude to real life work doesnt help. Do you know what McDonalds pays? Money! You know what poverty is? Having no money!
I am sick of you bigots seeing the problem of child abuse as merely an opportunity to shoe-horn in your “special interest” solution.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:33 pm
You would like to see an example of financial deprivation not being a contributing factor in a violent assault on a child?
You are as stupid as any young earth creationist.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:34 pm
I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the National Parties ‘solution’
You can’t. You have as little idea as I do whether National will come up with plans that address these problems better than any government in the past or not.
There are no ‘solutions’ – at best things can on average be improved. And any true partial solutions would have to be long term, through several changes of government, so claiming to know that future is utter bullshit.
You’re obviously not a Shearerite, no sign of a cooperative joint approach, and you don’t sound simplisticly idealistic enough to be a standard Green. So you must be radical Green (the type that will keep them out of a position in government where they can actually achieve anyything) or Mana?
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Griff
What are the Maori leadership going to do that the rest of us haven’t been able to work out?
Maori make up 31% of the poorest quartile according to stats NZ (just over double their proportion of the total population) and their abuse stats compared to non-Maori are just over double as well.
See a pattern emerging?
http://www2.stats.govt.nz/domino/external/web/nzstories.nsf/092edeb76ed5aa6bcc256afe0081d84e/f9c4a9067a670b1fcc256b180004fea3?OpenDocument
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
Above, I just meant help out if you can, learn and don’t judge.
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:45 pm
You jest of course
Vote:How many refugees here
forced to leave their country as it decays into the third world
escaping rape armed hold up horrific crime
thats the coloreds your linesman the local diary
the coloreds and the whites are just as much refugees as the poor Palestines you champion
January 26th, 2012 at 9:52 pm
Oh, really! I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the National Parties ‘solution’ will involve using this country’s domestic security apparatus to become more forcefully involved in reported incidences of domestic violence and suspected incidences of child abuse and that the level of the intensity of that scrutiny will be largely dependant on the relative poverty of the target – the poorer the family the greater the negative state attention. Furthermore, I can also say, without fear of contradiction, that this approach will not effect the amount of children killed as a result of abuse.
If economic/financial deprivation is not a significant contributing factor to the death of children killed as a consequence of a violent assault, I would like to see an example.
I have posted the same answer to this topic so many times I’ve lost count and in all those times no-one has contradicted it. The answer to this issue is that it is not circumstance, it is attitude. Yoza asks for an example. Well Yoza, simply look around the very poorest suburbs which are teeming with poverty in any city in this country and find families who don’t abuse their kids despite the fact their financial circumstances are precisely the same as their neighbours who do abuse their kids and analyse the difference and you will find 100% of the time that poor people who don’t abuse their kids don’t do it because they have differing attitudes from those who do. And let’s be clear, attitude costs nothing. Nada. Zip. Attitude is free. It doesn’t cost anything and furthermore you can change it in a heartbeat.
And if you say there aren’t any such families, why that simply contradicts every single lefty meme that comes out on this which always says: people who do this sort of stuff are in the minority.
That’s right. They are in the minority. So how come if poverty is THE causal factor does this phenomena exist only amongst a minority of people in poverty then? How do lefties possibly explain the FACT that out of the tens of thousands of families in “poverty” only a small fraction abuse their kids. Not one lefty has ever been able to answer that. Go ahead, Yoza, Luc, mm, Wetfoot. Pray tell, how can it possibly be that every single poor person doesn’t abuse their kids. Why is that, if its not attitude?
BTW, education begats attitude. That’s the solution. E-d-u-c-a-t-i-o-n. How come lefties never talk about that, as opposed to talking about nothing but redistribution? Are you guys all stupid, or are you just wanting to preserve your base in perpetuity lest once they actually start working and getting out of poverty, they decide not to vote for you guys anymore? What other explanation is there?
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 9:54 pm
Sure Griff, times are tough all round. But don’t look to whip someone else because you feel you got whipped yourself.
Vote:Take a breath.
January 26th, 2012 at 10:21 pm
four times scott
not double
ero 11 per hundred thousand
asian9
poly 22
Moari41
of hospital admissions due to abuse
would you tolerate child abuse in your family
I would do some thing
family would respond
we are one of the most supportive cultures in the world according to the oecd
The sort of shit thats out there
baby in drier
how about a bowling ball think where the fingers go
kids not listing iron his head
the bash. part of a culture
once where worriers was heavily censored compared to the shit these kids see
The leaders are to busy swanning around in their trust bmws and setting up privet schools for their kids The worst the problem gets the more they can extort with the treaty bullshit
bullshit talking and evading the problems is not going to help
Vote:teaching bone carving and te reo is not helping
paying them to breed is just stupid
target the feral s police education health and welfare all driven to eradicate the problems
ciyfs
is dysfunctional to many lefty fuckwits to actually do any good restructure with a more rational leadership
January 26th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
teaching bone carving and te reo is not helping
I actually think it is Griff, to the extent it instills pride and confidence and a sense of self-worth in a person. To the extent it instills arrogance, a sense of grievance and a sense of consequent entitlement, it doesn’t help.
And that’s the debate that should be had around the Maori renaissance. Why should all taxpayers be required to fund courses which teach the latter, as opposed to the former?
Vote:January 26th, 2012 at 10:46 pm
Their are a lot of genuine people within the Maori community
Vote:some that can see past the grievance and inter tribal bullshit
apartheid reid thats wot some in Maoridom are demanding
wait till the constitutional review comes out
chips and a beer to watch that one
January 26th, 2012 at 10:50 pm
Griff (1,121) Says:
January 26th, 2012 at 9:45 pm
more random than usual should have been in reply to luc on A local Jew hater
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 12:03 am
reid “it instills pride and confidence and a sense of self-worth in a person” You would have to think quite primitively to get what you said out of doing a bone carving. False pride is what it is, which leads to your: “it instills arrogance”.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 12:46 am
“Yoza asks for an example. Well Yoza, simply look around the very poorest suburbs which are teeming with poverty in any city in this country and find families who don’t abuse their kids despite the fact their financial circumstances are precisely the same as their neighbours who do abuse their kids and analyse the difference and you will find 100% of the time that poor people who don’t abuse their kids don’t do it because they have differing attitudes from those who do.”
I am not saying that child abuse is the direct consequence of economic deprivation for every family, just as alcohol abuse or drug abuse are not the direct consequences of economic deprivation for every person. What I am saying is that the misery created by desperate socio-economic circumstance exacerbates the behaviour that leads to child abuse, drug abuse, alcohol abuse and any other number of latent self and socially destructive behaviours. ” 7:47 “Child abuse, like drug abuse; alcohol abuse; domestic violence; depression; disease; or any other damaging condition is exacerbated by financial hardship,…”
And here’s the rub, Reid, if child abuse is not linked to economic deprivation, how is it that every (and I am still waiting for an example of one that isn’t) instance of the violent death of a toddler, as a consequence of child abuse, is committed in economically deprived circumstance? And why does the level of child abuse increase at the level of economic inequality?
Before the economic reforms carried out by Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson the death of children as the result of violence at the hands of their caregivers were extremely rare, now they are common place.
Those who make apologies for the misery created by the reforms of the eighties should have the honesty to face the reality that distorting the economy to favour the affluent had a direct repercussion of disadvantaging everyone else, most significantly those closest to the bottom of the socio-economic heap.
It is necessarily manufactured denial, driven by sheer arrogance and a sense of entitlement founded in the delusional fantasies of the greedy over-class that permits the killing of defenceless children to perpetuate unchecked. These tiny battered corpses are testament to the ‘success’ of ‘free market’ capitalism.
National’s policy agenda will cause greater economic hardship for those at the bottom while creating greater wealth and opportunity for those at the top. As a result more children will be beaten to death, as sure as night follows day.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 2:07 am
There is hope, after all, I have learned just tonight.
At first, I shuddered at the headline in the Guardian – “Desperate Osborne considers fast tracking tax cuts.”
Oh no, here we go again, the home of Thatchernomics, driven by TINA, adopted by our own deluded Roger Douglas, the Brits are going to be subjected to Trickle Down futility once again.
But no!
The tax cuts being considered for fast tracking – the British economy is tanking, partly as a result of the “austerity” measures imposed by the new government – are actually directed to the low income/middle class. And the tool for these cuts is lifting the tax-free threshold.
Maybe, at the government level, Bill English should take note, the death knell of the risible trickle down theory is imminent.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 2:49 am
Luc Hansen said:
Permanent enslavement is the only option, then, according to you, VS.
But that also goes hand in hand with child abuse.
——————–
A black South African girl born today is statistically more likely to be raped during her lifetime than she is to learn to read.
The end of the Apartheid era in South Africa has not been accompanied by a reduction in the rates of child abuse.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 6:37 am
Yoza, you are making many claims and accusations without any backing of facts.
You haven’t provided any statistics or examples of any violent deaths that are committed in economically deprived circumstance, so you are making a claim without foundation.
What is an “economically deprived circumstance”? And what is the primary cause of the level of deprivation? I guess I grew up in an extended economically deprived circumstance and not a hand was laid on me in anger, and I never went hungry. My children were at times living in an “economically deprived circumstance”, at one stage considerably deprived, but zero violence.
I’m sure some of the deaths will have had some association with an “economically deprived circumstance” – but then you need to show what the whole circumstance was. What was the main cause of the deprivation as compared to the rest of the families in the street, in the suburb, in the country? Lower benefit? Lower wages? Or higher expenditure on alcohol or drugs or gambling?
And you have done nothing to show that giving these households more money would materially change any “economically deprived circumstance”, and especially whether it would change any tendency to deal with problems using violence.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 6:54 am
And Yoza, if you are going to paint this as a political/ideological problem, with National bad, whoever you support good, you are pissing into the wind of poverty. You will achieve nothing over the next three years, you will be destined to bitching and moaning in futility, helping zero kids. Especially if you abuse and accuse anyone you disagree with.
If you actually understand anything about child abuse and it’s negative effects, you will also understand how political abuse is also negative, it causes problems, it doesn’t solve them.
The reality is that National leads our current government, supplies most of the active policy, supplies the PM, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Social Welfare. To influence anything, to make any positive contribution to how our government deals with the problems, you have to be able to work with our National led government.
Abusing and accusing people you disagree seems to be a way you try to deal with things. Do you have kids? If so, what do you do when you disagree with them?
Abusing kids, abusing governments, that’s easy. Anyone can hissy fit, anyone can lash out in anger.
Actually doing something that will make a political difference is much harder. Difficult problems are always hard to deal with. It means working with people, not fighting against them, not alienating.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 6:54 am
if child abuse is not linked to economic deprivation, how is it that every (and I am still waiting for an example of one that isn’t) instance of the violent death of a toddler, as a consequence of child abuse, is committed in economically deprived circumstance? And why does the level of child abuse increase at the level of economic inequality?
Correlation vs causation Yoza. Have a look at the level of education of the people who did the child abuse and run the same calculations and see what the answer is.
Trouble is, lefties have a vested interest in blaming “the failed policies of the 90′s” for every single ill under the sun. I mean their entire philosophy is wrapped up in “proving this.” And as we all know, there is nothing more vigorously defended than a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 7:04 am
And I agree with reid, education is a major factor. Education of the masses has played a big part in raising the living standards of the masses over the past couple of hundred years. Average living conditions for children have improved enormously. In the past many infants didn’t live long enough to be abused.
Better education leads to better job prospects.
Better education on many other things would help too, education on birth control, on relationships, on parenting, on budgeting, on borrowing, on non-violent problem solving, on growing a food garden, on nutritional diets on a budget, on not abusing anyone you disagree with. And in genertal on how to achieve things positively.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 7:05 am
lastmanstanding said:
BTW NZ had much much worse economic conditions in the 1930s Depression WITHOUT the child abuse.
————————-
There would have been just as much – if not more – child abuse in NZ during the 1930s as there is today.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 7:11 am
‘if child abuse is not linked to economic deprivation, how is it that every (and I am still waiting for an example of one that isn’t) instance of the violent death of a toddler, as a consequence of child abuse, is committed in economically deprived circumstance? And why does the level of child abuse increase at the level of economic inequality?’
Bloody funny, albeit a tragic topic. No one can answer the above, they want correlations, a broader spectrum of other facts but the obvious remains and the people with their heads in the sand keep them there, a whole lot of hot air about nothing and a general representation of ‘it’s not our fault’ they should help themselves because they’re too blame. Sure, the kids are to blame.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 7:12 am
Difficult problems are always hard to deal with. It means working with people, not fighting against them, not alienating.
Pete to me, this is really the nub of the issue. And the reason its the nub is that the people who do this stuff aren’t interested in being helped. They are full of anger, envy, selfishness and other negative thoughts and feelings and in many cases have had these instilled all their lives. As children many of these people learned that nothing was theirs. If they had a favourite toy it would be stolen or broken by say, their parents or their siblings (and their parents wouldn’t do anything about it). They wouldn’t get taught anything except how to shut up while their parents were drinking themselves stupid lest they annoy them. They were never taught the value of education. They think education is for poofs and losers. They have never experienced love, security, peace and comfort.
And when they’re adults they repeat the cycle. But the key point is, our whole attitude as a society toward these people is to react by saying: you’re a victim, let me hug you. Of course, these people with histories like that just turn around and react to treatment like that as if society was just a big sucker and let me extract as much as I possibly can from you without being required to do anything at all in exchange for that. That’s the problem and the people who insist society behaves like that are lefties. And since lefties are in all the bureacracies responsible for this treatment at all levels from policy down to frontline, the situation never changes.
Anyone who understands human nature knows what the answer is and why this approach we currently take will never work. But the idiot lefties won’t let society change it because that would be bullying the poor victims and that would be tewwible.
Tell me that’s not what happens now. It does, we all know it. The solution is patently obvious. It is NOT rocket science.
Better education on many other things would help too,
Absolutely Pete. I’m not talking about book learning, I’m talking about attitudinal education: self-discipline, love, etc etc.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 7:31 am
Breaking the ‘un-loved’ generational cycle in some families is a major factor, that’s often where the worse abuse occurs, loving parents don’t deliberately hurt their children.
Money doesn’t buy love.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 8:22 am
At least in this country , if you know of child abuse happening , you can pick up the phone and anonymously ring CYF’s. In Asian countries where gangsters rule , there are too many possible threats against yourself and your own family. Anywhere where there are Chinese , gangsters rule. Ringing CYF’s may not make much happen but at least it is an option open to concerned members of the public..calling the police is another option.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 9:05 am
joana, I’ve heard evidence that some New Zealand gangsters have controlled some social development case workers.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 9:53 am
This is not hard for a society with the will. Social Welfare know now where most of the bad abuse will happen. Get the kids of these families a jab at age 12 to stop the reproducing (temporarily of course). Tell to come back at age 22 – if they have not got a police record, if they are gainfully employed and have base level of educational achievement then bingo they get the right to reproduce. A hell of child abuse issues would disappear along with a lot of other social problems.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 10:48 am
Yoza – where are you getting your data from to justify this statement
“Before the economic reforms carried out by Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson the death of children as the result of violence at the hands of their caregivers were extremely rare, now they are common place.”
I’ve been trying to find stats to see if you’re factually correct and the best source of info I’ve found so far is:
http://socialreport.msd.govt.nz/safety/assault-mortality.html where assault mortality rates are broken down by demographic.
From that data it does seem valid to say the rates increased in the late 80′s but has steadily decreased since.
Again – what data were you using to base your allegations on? Perhaps you have a more comprehensive source.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 12:16 pm
Lee,
Vote:yes I was just thinking that maybe Maori people who know of abuse don’t report it for much the same reason I didn’t report it when living in Asia..the fear of reprisals from gang members..This could well be the case..I couldn’t stand it; this feeling of not being able to do something about it. It was very prevalent but the situation which really ripped me up was my son’s young Chinese friend..I once counted 40 bruises on him..He was hoping that I would ”rescue him ” from his mother , but I couldn’t do anything.
January 27th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Anybody got the statistics of serious injury to children by those that fit the de facto ‘father’ catagory? Something beside the obvious in this area (say jealous, immature and socially ill-equipped ‘husband,’ resentment against a child not his own,) single parent families were an oddity in times when there was little (maybe no) child murders. Does any peep know if there is any government work done on such families arising from the statistics of children killed by step dads. It certainly seems a situation that one presumes would be targetted.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
joana 12.16
And there will also be gang members or associates that don’t report such crimes, probably any crime. So a child in such an environment may be at greater risk. But maybe Lee was talking about intimidation by gangsters of investigating officials, or the presence of them in an environment which causes others to prefer silence or not report. I’ve seen some of it myself, not characterised by the type of cases mentioned here, but where a person made a decision that there was something to benefit his son by meeting some of those in the circles in which the dad had once moved in. The youngster has problems with police now primarily it seems for having a ‘staunch’ attitude that has got him into trouble. So if the dad was intending to help the boy avoid the same pitfalls it apparently hasn’t worked.
Vote:Just slightly off topic but still to do with children – the dad that told the coroner’s court how he let his 4 year old son wander in a small rural community, but told him things not to do, like ‘watch out for dogs’ apparently unable to comprehend a child of that age can’t look out for himself against a dog, or indeed any of the dangers of a child wandering alone, and also from memory not to go near the (I think) an abandoned home with the boy climbed the water tank, fell in and drowned.
January 27th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
It is all much the same Nostalgia..living in a society ruled by gangs is totally different from living in a society where laws and law enforcers are on top..it is a rather hopeless situation where fear rules everyone’s actions.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
joana,
Vote:do you think that legalization of handguns could help?
January 27th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
An interesting campaign on Closing The Gap – The Income Equality Project
Too narrow and simplistic a focus for my liking.
The Spirit Level may raise the level of spirited debate.
It looks like their first try at blogging, virtually all of the 110 comments here are spam posts and replies to them asking to sign up.
All a well meaning attempt to address a problem but I don’t know how it will avoid being partisan, if that it is actually their intention.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
The Spirit Level is a fraud. The authors are liars. And their fans are uncritical fools.
Their story is;
Step 1: inequality
Step 2: ????
Step 3: all the worlds problems
Like I said above, those who focus on inequality as the cause of all bad things do so because they want the problem to be simple. And what do you know! The solution to that simple and obvious problem is something they have been talking about for years! Finally The Spirit Level some research and confirms what they already knew and they will accept no criticism or questioning of it. Their defense of The Spirit Level amounts to little more than ad hom attacks and outright denial.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
You’re not entirely wrong. It’s probably a pretty accurate summation that every Maori family has some sort of gang affiliation and if they don’t get at yourself cause you can look after yourself, they’ll have a go at a wider member of your family….whether they’re involved or not. Someone like Farrar & others who comment here have no idea.
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 1:58 pm
So the first step in stopping child abuse would be to crush, destroy, or otherwise eliminate gangs?
Do I hear any objections?
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
joana
‘It is all much the same Nostalgia..living in a society ruled by gangs is totally different from living in a society where laws and law enforcers are on top..it is a rather hopeless situation where fear rules everyone’s actions.’
I might have taken the debate away from its point, but for children living in any environment where there is a fear of going to the police, for family or gang reasons – ‘fear rules everyones actions.’
Vote:January 27th, 2012 at 8:19 pm
Lee
Vote:Where I was living where Chinese gangs ruled, I am sure they had guns..the father of the little boy whose 40 brusises I counted , had a large collection of guns..my son told me this , but the more obvious handiwork of these gangs was acid in the face and amputation or multiple amputation. Early on I saw limbless young men begging in the shopping areas..Naturally I wondered what had happened to these people.. They had crossed gang members and paid with their limbs. Whilst living there , I heard of a man whom the gangsters caught at the airport. They chopped off his leg and then dropped he and his leg outside a private hospital. Limbless people have a fairly good silencing effect on the local people.
The other thing they were involved in was kidnapping so of course, people would be concerned re there own children..
Gangsters were right there in business and they would meet the politicians at the airports. There was no way of ever escaping their influence.
January 27th, 2012 at 8:21 pm
While I am on the subject , the people mentioned above have a really big foothold in one NZ city. No prizes.
Vote:January 28th, 2012 at 12:48 am
This is worth a look: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html#.TyJpW270xk8.facebook
Notice where good ole New Zealand is on the data?
Mind you, I think we all knew it, in our heart of hearts.
Vote:January 28th, 2012 at 1:11 am
And what kind of magic wand do you think the new government should have waved to sparkle away the effects of hundreds of years of slavery and oppression?
Vote:January 28th, 2012 at 1:23 am
Yet, there have been no peer reviewed studies published to disprove the authors rigorous science.
Just as no peer reviewed studies have provided an alternative to AGW theory explaining the observed rise in global temperatures, which you also like to deny.
Do you know something the scientific world doesn’t, Kimble?
Vote:January 28th, 2012 at 2:17 am
“And what kind of magic wand do you think the new government should have waved to sparkle away the effects of hundreds of years of slavery and oppression?”
The combine harvester. Cheaper then slaves.
Vote:January 28th, 2012 at 2:23 am
“Do you know something the scientific world doesn’t, Kimble?”
The scientific world? I think you’re confused with Disney World. The real world doesn’t share your error bars thrill ride – dawk.
Vote:January 28th, 2012 at 9:56 am
Luc you dont know what peer review actually is. Though your tactic does seem familiar. Wilkinson and Pickett used it to avoid having to deal with genuine criticism of their work.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/9383/
If the critics are wrong, The Spirit Level authors could point out how, but each of their rare “critiques” that deals with science have been systematically dismantled, and their far more common tactic of appealing to authority and slandering their opposition does more to harm their case than help it.
You ignorant tools lap it up though, Luc.
If you consider The Spirit Level good science, then your opinions on all science can be discounted.
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