Hate-mongering

January 30th, 2012 at 12:38 pm by David Farrar

One of the posters (not commenters) at posted this over the weekend:

As you can see he calls Fran O’Sullivan a traitor, enemy and sell-out who will be shunned and reviled. This is because Fran dared to support the Crafar farm sale. It shows how demented some of the opponents have become. Redlogix of course cowers behind his alias, and would never ever dare to write such stuff under his own name – unlike Fran.

But as you can see, not content with just having Fran labeled a traitor and enemy to be shunned and reviled, a commentor Millsy calls for her to executed, saying “the likes of O’Sullivan, Key, Williamson, and Coleman will find themselves … rewarded for their treachery with a one way trip to the gallows”.

Now Millsy is just a commenter, and this is not the first time he has advocated violence against those whose political views he opposes. I of all people would say you don’t judge a blog on the basis of a comment by a commenter. I mean, after all it is possible they didn’t even see the comment (I read a small proportion of total comments on KB). If they did, surely they would delete it and at least kick him off?

But no, as you can see Red Logix (who is an author, not a commenter) effectively endorses the comment, saying that while it was a marginal call, it is okay because he said “the likes of” and that Millsy is correct in general.

Fran actually had been contributing to the thread (and kudos to Fran for standing up to people who call you a traitor and enemy) and pointed out that Millsy is Brendon Mills (easily found through Google). Now get this – The Standard deleted Fran’s comment, but left up the one effectively calling for her to go to the gallows!

Fran sums it all up nicely, with this tweet from Fran:

The Standard? Internet version of the Ku Klux Klan. Happy to string up people behind web cloak of anonymity.

There is a reason so many of their authors (not all) wear virtual hoods to hide their identities.

Tags: ,

104 Responses to “Hate-mongering”

  1. adze (2,059 comments) says:

    Unbelievable. It’s a wonder Fran gave that blog the time of day.

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  2. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    Surely that comment is worthy of a Police complaint.

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  3. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    I see Selwyn Pellett joined the twitter conversation:

    Selwyn Pellett @SelwynPellett Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
    @FranOSullivan @CactusKate2 History didn’t record too many KKK being from the left, let alone behind any lynchings. Just saying!

    History clearly isn’t Selwyn’s strong point:
    “In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic party, the planter class, and all those who desired restoration of white supremacy.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

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  4. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    If I understand correctly it would be inappropriate to call them sacks of shit

    inappropriate, yet accurate by the looks of things.

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  5. Clint Heine (1,570 comments) says:

    We should have a bounty on each and every one of them. Out them when possible at every opportunity. The pretence that they need to be anonymous cause of their jobs is wafer thin, as is the faux outrage about their funding from Labour.

    There is ought to be a few surprises, lets be having them!

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  6. Paulus (2,594 comments) says:

    It is sad that in New Zealand we have such pathetic people, worthy of the Taleban membership only, and Sharia Law.

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  7. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    You got me Clint, I AM Redlogix… so busted.

    SURPRISE!

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  8. petal (705 comments) says:

    I honestly don’t understand why people keep visiting that site. It’s about the same caliber as the National Front.

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  9. RRM (9,769 comments) says:

    Another beautiful day on the internet…?

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  10. alex Masterley (1,507 comments) says:

    What amuses me is idiots like “Millsy” “Spud” and the rest would have been amongst the first sentto the gulag by Stalin and his mate Beria.

    Good call Clint, I think it is safe to say that the hunting season has just been delared open with Millsy the first to be flushed from cover.

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  11. Spam (598 comments) says:

    On a completely different angle, I noticed that Lyn (I think it was him) seems to think that reporting people to Aksimet (i.e. getting their IP blacklisted across a fair chunk of the internet) for being “obnoxious” is fair and reasonable.

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  12. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Why would anyone visit the pestiferous swamp that blog is? I give The Sub-Standard a wide berth.

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  13. hj (6,807 comments) says:

    “What’s good for the property investor is good for the country” (it used to be farmers now it’s Donald Trump etc, etc).

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  14. hj (6,807 comments) says:

    Heard Bernard Hickey on Radio I. “Hear, hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

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  15. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    What amuses me is RightNow thinking the KKK was a left-wing organisation.

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  16. Nookin (3,260 comments) says:

    Anyone know or would like to guess who said this?

    “The public policy objectives of the Act are:
    •to encourage foreign investment into New Zealand through reducing
    compliance costs on businesses and recognising the growth benefits
    that foreign investment brings;
    •to provide rules that recognise the importance of attracting foreign
    direct investment;
    •to recognise the benefits foreign investors bring in terms of access to
    markets and technology and ideas;
    •to assess the benefits received from overseas investment applications
    on the basis of benefit to the whole of New Zealand;
    •to ensure the value of sensitive New Zealand assets are recognised and
    enhanced by an overseas owner and that overseas owners are subjected
    to a screening and monitoring process; and
    •to ensure appropriate governance arrangements around the overseas
    investment regime.”

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  17. ben (2,418 comments) says:

    Are you saying Hickey backed these radical sentiments, HJ? Extraordinary if true.

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  18. taranaki (20 comments) says:

    So David, I happily recall the auspicious day you compared Cullen to the Teleban thanks to his tax policy, a comparison you made “carefully”.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/05/why_this_is_an_extremist_government.html

    I really enjoy you casting aspesions on others when you use such “demented” language. Viva le hate monger David.

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  19. Pete George (23,425 comments) says:

    This might be a more extreme example but sadly it is not that far removed from what is allowed regularly at The Standard. I’ve commented there quite a bit and almost always I’m attacked personally or political associations or associates are attacked and it’s rare for anyone to actually attempt reasonable criticism or debate.

    I admittedly do point out Labour or Standard things I disagree with at times but often I attempt to raise reasonable points, which are usualy ignored and I’m attacked instead, often by a band of bitchers.

    This is all Kiwiblogs’s fault. Since I first started dabbling at TS I was labelled and targeted as an enemy because I had a history here, not a history of anything I’d posted, just a history of having participated here.

    I’ve dealt with as bad and worse attacks – including here in the past – but the biggest issue with The Standard is some of the people (not all) who post and moderate actively support the attacks with very slanted favouritism, things I’ve been warned and banned for have been very mild compared to what I’m subject to at times.

    So the Millsy behaviour is no surprise, he’s regarded as on the ‘right’ (left) side there so gets away with attacks at will, this one is just a little stronger than normal.

    It can’t be called ‘nasty Labour’ because it’s not all Labour posters and commenters, and some of the regular attackers are more likely Mana, so I think it’s more of a site problem than a party problem. Any blog can be run however those running it want to but it does reflect very poorly on the party most associated with the blog.

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  20. DavidC (179 comments) says:

    Thanks taranaki, you just reminded me why I hate that prick Cullen so much!

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  21. 3-coil (1,215 comments) says:

    I wonder – same person/any relationship to the infamous “Logix” (?) who used to comment here a few years ago?

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  22. Other_Andy (2,562 comments) says:

    @mikenmild

    “What amuses me is RightNow thinking the KKK was a left-wing organisation.”

    RightNow was right to tie the Democrats to the KKK.
    The KKK was supported by the Democratic Party and some of its most famous members were Democrats.
    The Democratic Party has a history that shows support for slavery, segregation, lynching and the Ku Klux Klan.

    And the left in general, with its identity politics, is still a racist movement.

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  23. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    Sorry Andy you’re using facts, the left are immune to facts. Hence their ownership of the opposition benches.

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  24. simonway (380 comments) says:

    I saw a comment here once that called for people (and one specific person) to be executed on the basis of their political views. I’m fairly certain that dpf wouldn’t endorse the sentiment, but it was never deleted (it’s still there); on the other hand, he probably never even saw it, since I’m inclined to think the commenter would at least have gotten an edit with demerits if he had.

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  25. tom hunter (4,665 comments) says:

    I wonder – same person/any relationship to the infamous “Logix” (?) who used to comment here a few years ago?

    Yes. Yes it is.

    He left Kiwiblog some time ago, having tired of constantly challenging his fellow New Zealanders who are being sucked into this same global whirlpool of hate propaganda.

    Funnily enough that Kiwiblog thread was titled “Selective Morality”

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  26. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    Other Andy says:- “The KKK was supported by the Democratic Party and some of its most famous members were Democrats.”

    Mikenmild is right. The KKK personify extreme conservatism which is generally considered to be right wing. They are anti communist anti liberal and anti catholic and of course, anti black.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Nookin says:- “Anyone know or would like to guess who said this?”

    I cheated. It was Micky Cullen

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  27. Murray (8,844 comments) says:

    The dems are extreme conservatives now? Another day another fail scott.

    Look up the dems voting history of matters of civil liberties you self impressed buffoon. They were exceedingly bittter about those evil republicans freeing the slaves and have voted accordingly ever since. these are matters of fact and facts are not you say they because you are too lazy, too stupid, too arrogant and too just plain fucking left of dumass to find out.

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  28. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    You got me mikenmild. I must confess that in my twisted mind I see the leaders and organisers of the left as mostly self interested unprincipled shit stirrers who would have been more than happy to have been born with a silver spoon in their mouths but fate being what it is have just had to make do with appropriating other peoples’ money under the pretence that getting rich themselves is simply a byproduct of the process of redistribution.

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  29. La Grand Fromage (145 comments) says:

    I love how these lefty nobheads talk about lining the people up against walls when the reality is they couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

    Take this Millsy for example. From the picture of him on the web you can tell that Fran O’Sullivan would have the specky twat eating through a straw if he ever attempted taking her to any gallows. Would be the first time he had been touched by a woman as well.

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  30. Pete George (23,425 comments) says:

    I saw a comment here once that called for people (and one specific person) to be executed on the basis of their political views.

    Redbaiter and one or two others sometimes suggested hanging politicians and journalists from lamp posts, and quite possibly named people. Sometimes there have been suggestions people are shot too (usually alleged criminals).

    The extremists at The Standard sometimes act very similarly to the extremists that have been here in the past.

    These extremes have at times at least been confronted by other commenters here (including me) and those sort of comments have never been supported by DPF, in fact the commenters that make those sort of comments inevitably end up being demerited and eventually banned, the few that are moderated here.

    In comparison The Standard moderation sometimes actively protects some abusers similar to the example above.

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  31. wat dabney (3,755 comments) says:

    There is some small hope for Fran: Petain was not actually executed.

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  32. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    Perhaps the reality is that Democrats were historically RWNJs.

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  33. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    @ Scott Chris.

    A history lesson for you:
    Historian Eric Foner observed:

    In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic party, the planter class, and all those who desired restoration of white supremacy. Its purposes were political, but political in the broadest sense, for it sought to affect power relations, both public and private, throughout Southern society. It aimed to reverse the interlocking changes sweeping over the South during Reconstruction: to destroy the Republican party’s infrastructure, undermine the Reconstruction state, reestablish control of the black labor force, and restore racial subordination in every aspect of Southern life.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KKK#Creation_and_naming

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  34. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    OK, I can see where this conversation is going. Let me head it off at the pass; Hitler was a Christian.

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  35. Nookin (3,260 comments) says:

    Scott Chris
    It was indeed our reverred Dr Cullen who made those comments in a ministerial directive following the passing of the Overseas Investment Act 2005. This is the legislation pursuant to which the Crafar Farms consent was granted. The 2005 legislation followed a labour government investigation to the acquisition of assets by overseas parties and reflects the then labour government’s approach which, as is clearly evident from the statement of policy, was permissive. Critics seem to forget that.

    The national government’s directive (Bill English December 2010) contains a reminder to create a balance between advantages of overseas investment on the one hand and protecting the assets on the other. Of the policies, that of the former labour government appears to be more permissive.

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  36. davidp (3,572 comments) says:

    LGF>Take this Millsy for example. From the picture of him on the web you can tell that Fran O’Sullivan would have the specky twat eating through a straw if he ever attempted taking her to any gallows. Would be the first time he had been touched by a woman as well.

    There seem to be a couple of candidates in NZ. Which one is the wannabe serial killer?

    And I like the way the Redlogix guy tries out the “some of my best friends are Asian” line to excuse his over the top rage about farm sales to Chinese while he was silent about Labour’s farm sales to non-Chinese.

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  37. annie (540 comments) says:

    Looks as though the historical revisionists of the left are out in force. Look up the Democrats’ history, leftist doesn’t necessarily mean virtuous.

    And remember, Stalin was a indisputably a leftist too. And look what he did to the gypsies.

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  38. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    The left doesn’t like being reminded that it has the history of hatred and violence, rather more so than those on the right, so they re-define terms to suit themselves. One example, of course, is the British National Party, which is to the left of UK Labour.

    HOwever, I am sure that Scott Chris would define most of the Soviet Union’s leaders as being right wing because they were ‘conservative’ communists.

    In fact, didn’t someone on the left try to pull that stunt re North Korea a few weeks ago?

    Lefties, you must face up to the fact that the parties of the left are usually the authoritarian, violent, and hate-mongering people. Just look how you talk about right wingers, as an example. We think you are misguided, but you think (and say) that we on the right believe what we do out of hatred for others.

    The fact is that conservatism is fast becoming left wing, because the main policies of the last 50 years have been left wing. The Tories in the UK are a good example of this.

    That all said, it is the right of the sub-Standard commenters to write as they please, hateful as they almost always are. I just choose not to read it.

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  39. tvb (4,313 comments) says:

    The standard has become a vehicle for hate politics. The violence of the language including the use of the word traitor (they do not know what that means) is concerning. If they want to know what traitor means go and see Tinker tailor soldier spy there you will see the actions of a traitor who was a serial killer of agents. That is what I think is a traitor. But we tolerate these people. Long may the standard continue.

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  40. sweetd (125 comments) says:

    The Standard, Orwell’s 1984 ”2 mins of hate” on permanent loop.

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  41. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    And remember, Stalin was a indisputably a leftist too. And look what he did to the gypsies.

    /* Channeling Scott Chris */

    But arguably the murdering of innocent civilians has long been a facet of right wing politics, therefore arguably Stalin cannot have come from the left….

    /* Reality returned */

    Geez guys, don’t you know that to a leftie history is written in pencil!

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  42. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    Heh, I bet the issue of who owns the KKK generates some juicy threads on American blogsites. I don’t dispute the confederate origins of the KKK, I’m simply describing them as they are now. Anyone remember the name David Duke?

    I repeat: They are anti-communist, anti-liberal, anti-catholic, anti-government, anti-immigration and of course, anti-black.

    Also, they have officially endorsed Ron Paul for POTUS, so that is how they see themselves.

    I mean, you don’t see The Masons out and about cutting stone now do you?

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  43. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    anti-communist, anti-liberal, anti-catholic, anti-government, anti-immigration and of course, anti-black.

    to which you can add ‘anti-semitic’.  So that takes them back to the left…

    Actually, they look like a mix of populism and racism. Sort of a racist NZ First: whatever will get votes/members. 

    But let’s look at what you are saying:

    Anti-communist: well, yes, the right wing were/are anti-communist.  Of course, the Democrats had a good go at it as well, so lets say that was centre/right.

    Anti-liberal:  this is a weird one, as it goes on a US definition of liberal. Consider that the best known libertarian in the US is trying for the Republican party nomination!  DPFs political positions on social policy would see him classed as a liberal, despite him being a Nat, so I am not sure this is something that can define right and left. 

    Anti-Catholic: Historically, both left and right, depending on the era. So neither.

    Anti-government: which isn’t a right wing position at all.  The right wing acknowledges the need for government.  We are just against ‘big’ government.  We don’t want to get rid of it, that is the anarchist (left wing) view (although ‘anarchist’ no longer means what it used to: it now means ‘big government socialist’).  And those militia idiots in Montana (and so on) aren’t right wing, they are just morons (and protectionist ones at that).

    anti-immigration: again, not a right wing position.  The right are against illegal immigration.  Immigration is fine and often necessary.  However, the general position of this for the KKK and the BNP is a) racist and b) protectionist.  And given the BNP’s other policies, I call this as more left than right.  Just of the working class left rather than the intelligentsia left.

    Anti-black: again, racist.  Again, historically a Democratic policy.  Never a Republican policy (nothwistanding the left wing smears) as the Republicans were founded as an anti-slavery party.

    The left will always try to re-define positions to make it look as if they have always been on the side of right and good, but they will always get found out because they keep on writing their positions down!  

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  44. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    I repeat: They are anti-communist, anti-liberal, anti-catholic, anti-government, anti-immigration and of course, anti-black.

    Oh yes, and all right wing political entities are the same…..

    Fuck your a deluded wanker.

    EDIT: FE Smith seems to have summed it up far better.

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  45. tom hunter (4,665 comments) says:

    I bet the issue of who owns the KKK generates some juicy threads on American blogsites.

    It does, but only when the narrative maintains it’s focus on just that.

    Of far more interest are the things the Democrat party did aside from the KKK – and more specifically how this awful (and quite recent) history is simply brushed over by the likes of mikenmild in their casual assumptions about the decency and goodness of the progressive left that they hold close to their hearts. Assumptions that allow them to casually throw around soundbites that smear right-wingers, especially the GOP in the USA, with these sins – something usually along the lines of a statement or assertion that goes: How can we support Republicans given the Republicans’ history toward blacks in this country?

    And I think the most concise answer to that typically lazy and ignorant (when it’s not a deliberate smear) statement was the following paragraph:

    … it wasn’t the GOP that had opposed Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation. Nor was it Republicans who opposed the Thirteenth Amendment prohibiting slavery or the Fourteenth Amendment guaranteeing equal protection or the Fifteenth Amendment guaranteeing voting rights. It wasn’t Republicans who opposed Teddy Roosevelt’s anti-lynching legislation, or that filibustered or otherwise opposed more than a dozen anti-lynching bills in the last century. Republicans didn’t institutionalize Jim Crow or implement school segregation, poll taxes, or literacy tests. Bull Connor, Lester Maddox, Orval Faubus, and George Wallace weren’t Republicans. A higher percentage of Republicans voted for the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act than did Democrats.

    But all that disgusting history of the Democrat party in the US is trumped by Nixon’s “Southern Strategy”. At least that’s been the most recent meme from left-wing apologists.

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  46. dime (9,795 comments) says:

    i love how feral the standard gets. they seem really upset. i suspect they live miserable little lives.

    do we know what union redloxic works for?

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  47. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    Bevan says:- “Fuck your a deluded wanker.”

    That’s ‘you’re’ not ‘your’ ;)
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    FE Smith says:- “Anti-government: which isn’t a right wing position at all. The right wing acknowledges the need for government.”

    Ahh here we get to the nub of the argument. I’ve asked you this before, and you declined to answer. How do *you* define the political spectrum?

    Also, I will remind you of my original statement:

    >> “The KKK personify extreme conservatism which is generally considered to be right wing.”

    Perhaps I should modify that to a quasi-relative description:

    >> “…which is generally considered by the right to be extreme leftism, and by the left to be extreme rightism”

    Fair enough?

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  48. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    ha ha ha ha ha ha

    firstly, fran o’sullivan goes on the personal attack and addresses nothing of the issue of foreign ownership.

    and then voila, farrar comes along and does exactly the same – all about the person and nothing of the issue of foeign ownership.

    the only people you convince farrar are your own.

    ha ha ha ha ha ha

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  49. wat dabney (3,755 comments) says:

    Way to miss the point, vto.

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  50. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    gurgle gurgle slop slop

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  51. Nookin (3,260 comments) says:

    vto

    Your precious labour party addressed the issue of foreign ownership. National simply implemented the law that Labour determined was good for NZ

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  52. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    That’s ‘you’re’ not ‘your’

    Way to debate the valid points tosser.

    Ahh here we get to the nub of the argument. I’ve asked you this before, and you declined to answer. How do *you* define the political spectrum?

    Let me guess, you would be the type to use the seating arrangement of the pre-revolutionary French parliament to define what is left vs right and then apply that to today’s political entities based on that. Do you not see the the tank sized hole in your argument?

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  53. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    Scott Chris , the Democrat Party had a KKK senator up until last year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd

    And he wasn’t just a ‘backbencher’, the Democrats promoted him to leadership positions in the 80’s and 90’s

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  54. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    Bevan says:- ” Way to debate the valid points tosser.”

    Having just said:

    >>”Fuck your a deluded wanker”

    You’re not very bright are you Bev? You resorted to cheap insults, so I wound you up.

    If you want to debate the valid points, be civil like a good righty should.

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  55. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Funny to check a few hours after I called RightNow’s nonsense identifying the KKK as left wing!

    Amazingly, his delusion garnered some support! Even from usually rational commenter like FES.

    First misconception – the Democratic Party is left wing. Really??!! By NZ standards they’re about where the National Party sits. Remember we’re talking about a party that split in the 1850s over slavery – the Democrats opposed to slavery left and formed the Republican Party. They remained very conservative – hence the KKK link – for generations.

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  56. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    Mikenmild obviously knows very little about the US Democrats.

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  57. Pete George (23,425 comments) says:

    @vto

    goes on the personal attack and addresses nothing of the issue

    does exactly the same – all about the person and nothing of the issue

    Have you been exposed to The Standard too much? You should do irony 101.

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  58. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F7PcCXQUjY

    For example, Bernie Sanders would like to take 40% of everything you own from your children when you die and hand out money to his favoured groups.

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  59. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    Why do people here insist that the KKK’s links with the Democrats makes them ‘left’? The Democrat party is a million miles away from Socialism, compared to the NZ National Party the are right-wing extremist. If the National Party adopted the Democrats policy agenda they would be considered to far right to be electable in New Zealand. Noam Chomsky is left, Barak Obama is a corporate functionary whose obedience to corporate dogma is as assured as his Republican counterparts.

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  60. tom hunter (4,665 comments) says:

    … the Democrats opposed to slavery left and formed the Republican Party

    Clap …… clap …… clap

    It’s that precise grasp of history that makes the left what it is today.

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  61. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    Scott Chris,

    you are still re-defining terms to suit yourself. The KKK are racist and populist, not politically conservative, although I would accept them being described as reactionary. Racism is not a part of the conservative political ethos. By calling them conservative you seek to label all conservatives as racist. That is a common tactic of the left when debating the right.

    mikemilo,

    From Wikipedia: “Founded in Northern States in 1854 by anti-slavery activists, modernizers, ex-Whigs and ex-[Democratic] Free Soilers, the Republican Party quickly became the principal opposition to the dominant Democratic Party”

    So you are not quite right when you say that the GOP was founded by anti-slavery Dems. They only formed a part of the picture. The US was not a one party nation at the time, after all. But then you say that the Republicans remained conservative (which is true economically speaking, although conservative back then involved a fair bit of free trade), but you they try to link that to the KKK. You are wrong, or lying, or both. The KKK was a Democrat linked group, not a Republican linked group.

    And regardless of where you place them now, the Dems are still at most centrist, if not centre left. Their views are not to the right of the NZ Nats, they are to the left. That said, so are the NZ Nats, but that is another thread…

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  62. hj (6,807 comments) says:

    The Crafar decision is a victory for economic rationalism over blind xenophobic nationalism
    ………..
    A Chinese government official called NZ “the last paradise”. He wasn’t referring to our liberal economic policies. Economic rationalisation means bypassing cheapies (ie struggling New Zealanders) so foreigners can buy the land ahead of them.

    Mathew Hooten: “if that person can’t sell to a forienger he won’t get the best price”

    Chris Trotter: “people who sold out to foreigners used to be hung drawn and quartered”

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  63. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    and another thing…

    anybody remember the threads about the Gabrielle Giffords shootings? The lefties were busy saying that they were purer than the driven snow and the righties were all haters? Of course, the lefties were wrong about that too, but they seem to have forgotten how moderate they claimed their political speech to be in very short order!

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  64. radvad (744 comments) says:

    I presume all those opposed to foreign ownership of NZ land also oppose NZ citizens and companies buying land and assets overseas. Logic and consistency would demand that they do so.

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  65. Nostalgia-NZ (5,090 comments) says:

    F E Smith

    It is apparently far easier to look at historical events, so to avoid progress or apportion blame, rather than looking at contemporary life where people might realise that their chance for peace, happiness, and prosperity is in their own hands and not in the dust of what has gone before.

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  66. hj (6,807 comments) says:

    I presume all those opposed to foreign ownership of NZ land also oppose NZ citizens and companies buying land and assets overseas. Logic and consistency would demand that they do so.
    ….
    Oh yes! Jim down the road has a farm in China and Trevor has 20,000 ha in Paraguay… you mean rich elites own land in foreign countries. NZrs Can’t buy farmland in China.

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  67. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    nostalgia,

    that old saying about learning our history or being doomed to repeat it is very true. But the left likes to ‘re-invent’ itself so that it always appears to be on the ‘approved’ side of history. The Democrats hate being reminded that they supported slavery, because they like to portray themselves as being on the side of civil rights, when in fact the Democrats opposed civil rights in the US and the Republicans championed them.

    Knowing our history is important because it prevents us from being misled by political interests. It is nothing to do with avoiding progress or apportioning blame. But any attempt to re-write history must be opposed.

    However, if you want to remain ignorant, then by all means feel free to do so.

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  68. hj (6,807 comments) says:

    Bernard Hickey:
    Relax. We can always borrow more and sell some assets. After all, we’ve only sold 1 per cent of our land so far.

    Chill. Our foreign creditors will keep lending to us because we are the friendly, smiling borrowers who have everything under control, he crooned.

    We are the lucky country with grass galore, close connections to China, a flexible currency and the ability to grow our way out of trouble, he said.

    But excuses and reasons are easy when you’re trying to justify holding on to an addiction. Foreign debt and asset sales to foreigners are the nation’s enablers.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10781864

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  69. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    F E Smith

    Wrong (yet again) when you said I tried to link the Republicans to the KKK. I said that the Democrats remained very conservative for generations.

    In fact, both US parties are very conservative groups even today.

    Your latest comment was just as funny. It’s almost as if you believe that only leftists rewrite history

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  70. Yoza (1,771 comments) says:

    FE Smith 8:32 “Their views are not to the right of the NZ Nats, they are to the left. That said, so are the NZ Nats, but that is another thread…

    The Democrats don’t support a single payer health system; the National party would be unelectable if they tried enforcing the US health policy on NZ. The Democrats do not have a problem with nuclear weapons (unless it is Iran); the National Party would be unelectable if they went anywhere near New Zealand’s anti nuclear legislation.

    I would be very interested to see FE Smith post a Democrat policy that ‘out-lefts’ the Nats.

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  71. Nostalgia-NZ (5,090 comments) says:

    F E Smith

    ‘However, if you want to remain ignorant, then by all means feel free to do so.’

    Thanks for that.

    Sometimes in my ignorance I wonder about a father wanting to make a better world for his children than that of his own parents or grandparents, not using examples of what tragedies might have befallen them to prevent a better future for those that live now.

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  72. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    mike,

    my apologies, I missed the full stop. You are correct in what you said there.

    But it goes to show the problem with describing a ‘conservative’ as right wing. You can have conservatives on both sides of the spectrum. It is more appropriate to look at policies, rather than conservatism.

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  73. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    yoza,

    i hesitate to respond to you because I know that you are a self-avowed troll, but don’t mistake what the electorate will buy for what the Democrats want.

    The USA is very right wing in many areas, so the Dems do the best with what they can. For example, the majority of the Dems supported Obamacare in its initial form, until the US public gave its view. Similar with Hilarycare back in the 1990s.

    You are better looking at the States rather than the Union. California has a number of lefty policies that the Nats wouldn’t pass. New York, too: gay marriage, for example…

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  74. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    FE Smith

    Yes, I can accept that. Political views do tend to have more than one dimension – a la the ‘political compass’ that someone linked to here a few months ago.

    My only point really was to describe as laughable the assertion much earlier in the thread that the KKK was a left-wing organisation because of it’s links to the fore-runner of today’s Democratic Party.

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  75. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    FE Smith says:- “you are still re-defining terms”

    No, the problem here is that neither of us have defined any of our terms of reference.

    >>”The KKK are racist and populist, not politically conservative,”

    Yes they are racist and populist, but they are also conservative according to this wiki-definition: “Conservatism is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, minimal and gradual change in society.”

    >>”By calling them conservative you seek to label all conservatives as racist.”

    Tar you all with the same brush? No. Conservatism does lead to institutional racism because the ardent conservative seeks to instill a homogeneity of cultural values within society so that anything that doesn’t conform to that code is discriminated against. But I don’t believe that mainstream conservatives like yourself are any more xenophobic than your conservative socialist counterparts. The KKK however are the extreme manifestation of this meme.

    I on the other hand am a liberal, so I am neither racist nor conservative nor reactionary. In other words, I am at the opposite end of the political spectrum from the KKK. And here’s the rub:

    If I am a left winger as you so often maintain, surely my opposite would be a right winger? Ergo the KKK being my opposite are right wingers.

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  76. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    Scott,

    doesn’t work like that. The KKK are not the opposite of you. They inhabit a spectrum of their own. It is instructive, however, that their natural affiliation is with the Democrats.

    But I won’t play your game, because you change the rules to suit yourself.

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  77. radvad (744 comments) says:

    “Yes they are racist and populist, but they are also conservative according to this wiki-definition: “Conservatism is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, minimal and gradual change in society.”
    Perfectly describes those who oppose the Crafar sale.

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  78. mister nui (1,017 comments) says:

    Just read through all of the comments here.

    I do take my hat off to those of you that try to “debate” with scott chris, it’s like debating with plasticine.

    Maybe his name from now on should be Plasticine Scott.

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  79. tom hunter (4,665 comments) says:

    The other, much larger problem with the whole Democrat-KKK angle is that it does not take account of the fact that the later efforts of Southern segregation, starting around 1890, came as a result not of traditional attitudes of racism, but from the newer ideas of progressives.

    Men like President Woodrow Wilson, who in 1915 gave a very special White House ceremony by hosting his Cabinet and the entire U.S. Supreme Court for a screening of Birth of a Nation.. Wilson gave it a big thumbs up, saying it’s all so terribly true, before he went on to push a whole heap of left-wing ideas, from income tax to a “living constitution”.

    There was a recent NRO article that addressed this:

    The interesting fact that “the high tide of progressive reform coincided with some of the darkest moments of segregation, discrimination, and racial violence,” as historian Axel Schafer puts it, would seem to have been just that — mere coincidence. A classic instance, apparently, of correlation without causation.

    But this was no coincidence. [historian C Vann Woodward] observes, “the typical progressive reformer rode to power In the South on a disfranchising or white-supremacy movement.” The very same reformers who championed minimum wages, maximum hours, social insurance, and other labor reforms not only generally opposed extending the suffrage to blacks, but also promoted a “policy of segregation” for blacks and various “degenerates,” including the feeble-minded, epileptics, and “unemployables.” And they did so not in spite of the principles animating their economic reforms, but precisely because of them.

    The famed “progressive” movement whose moniker modern liberals in the US today are trying to reclaim, did these shitty things not because they were slave-holders of a generation earlier reborn, or even because they were racists in the traditional sense. They did these things because one of their key animating principles was that freedom was not the old “negative” one of individual freedom – the legal freedom to make decisions about one’s own life without suffering interference from others. It was now a “positive” one.

    Prominent progressive thinkers such as Richard Ely had a “social ethics” approach to freedom, but it was best expressed by British neo-Hegelian T. H. Green (whom Ely quoted):

    When we speak of freedom as something to be highly prized, we mean a positive power …

    .. When we measure the progress of of a society by the growth in freedom, we measure it by the increasing development and exercise on the whole of those powers of contributing to social good which we believe the members of the society to be endowed; in short, by the greater power on the part of the citizens as a body to make the most and best of themselves.

    Progressives believed in “progress,” in short, because they believed that history, as a process of moral growth, has an upward trajectory – and this approach is alive and well in all modern left-wing movements. The problem was that these progressives felt that American Blacks (and others) were advancing at different rates and levels: Schafer again – Progressive reformers effectively used the social ethics approach of the historical school to assert the inferiority of black culture. Until they’d advanced they’d only screw up the great progressive movement and to advance them various efforts would have to be made, including segregation.

    Moreover, because freedom was now defined in “positive” terms: people’s private decisions were conditioned on whether they were conducive to their own and others fullest possible development, and it was now seen as the job of government to formulate and assess those conditions. Government as the agent of moral progress.

    And again, this attitude is alive and well today – take a look at the Food Police as a recent example. The traditional progressive approach towards people and their ability and freedom to make decisions today mirrors the attitude taken a century ago towards “inferior” people like American Blacks.

    Modern “Liberals” may feel comfortable in dismissing past actions by left-wingers as “merely” racism, but that’s because they’re uncomfortable dealing with the intellectual and philosophical roots that were the real sources of restrictions on the freedom of individuals.

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  80. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    Another left wing favourite, The minimum wage law, was introduced in places like the US and South Africa as a tool of racist oppression. White workers didn’t like Black workers undercutting them and taking their jobs.

    Prior to the Davis-Bacon Act in America, Black unemployment had always been lower than White Unemployment. Since the passing of that law, the unemployment rate for Blacks has never been lower than for Whites.

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  81. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    You’re not very bright are you Bev? You resorted to cheap insults, so I wound you up.

    Actually, considering your grasp of history contains nothing but inaccurate garbage – Id say there is one finger pointing at me, and three of your own pointing right back at you…

    Oh, and princess you didnt wind me up – I can’t be faulted for correctly ascertaining that you are a deluded wanker.

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  82. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    But I won’t play your game, because you change the rules to suit yourself.

    Hence, he is a deluded wanker.

    See Scott, thats how it works. You are deluded cause your comprehension of history defies logic, and your inability to accept you are wrong means you are quite frankly a wanker.

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  83. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    Scott Chris (3,534) Says:
    January 30th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
    Tar you all with the same brush? No. Conservatism does lead to institutional racism because the ardent conservative seeks to instill a homogeneity of cultural values within society so that anything that doesn’t conform to that code is discriminated against. But I don’t believe that mainstream conservatives like yourself are any more xenophobic than your conservative socialist counterparts. The KKK however are the extreme manifestation of this meme.

    I on the other hand am a liberal, so I am neither racist nor conservative nor reactionary. In other words, I am at the opposite end of the political spectrum from the KKK. And here’s the rub:

    If I am a left winger as you so often maintain, surely my opposite would be a right winger? Ergo the KKK being my opposite are right wingers.

    This has got to be right up there with the dumbest posts on KB by someone apparently not doing it intentionally.

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  84. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    Sonny Blount says:- “This has got to be right up there with the dumbest posts on KB by someone apparently not doing it intentionally.”

    How so? It is a measure of a person and his argument that he resorts to common insults when he is bereft of ideas.

    Alas, the only point he makes is about himself.

    So much for the conservative tradition of good manners.

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  85. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    And what sense of superiority does anyone get from proving or disproving the association of the KKK with the Democrats? That’s insanity folks.
    The real issue is in the practice of hiding behind a hood virtual or otherwise while abusing and inciting violence – you’re tarred with the same brush regardless of you’re political orientation.

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  86. PaulL (6,015 comments) says:

    Monique, go back to the top. This rather off topic discussion started with an assertion on twitter that “History didn’t record too many KKK being from the left, let alone behind any lynchings.”

    I think we could perhaps say we’ve successfully proven that statement to be wrong, in fact history did find many KKK being from the left. And now it’s time to move on.

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  87. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    ‘in fact history did find many KKK being from the left’

    How are we going to move on if you repeat something so foolish?

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  88. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    God you are pathetic Scott.

    You have to be to conclude that because you think you are a left winger that everyone that opposes you is therefore a right winger.

    Or that because you, without irony, call yourself a liberal, that makes you neither racist, conservative, or reactionary.

    You have been told why over and over again but you seem to have ongoing comprehension issues.

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  89. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Left, right, blah, blah, blah.

    In the case of the US any such distinction is irrelevant.

    For example, Ron Paul is opposed to empire and colonial style wars, but most certainly not against self defense.

    But his financial views are so libertarian that ACT pales in comparison.

    The Southern states largely switched to the Republicans after LBJ rammed through his civil rights laws. In that case, they were departing for a more illiberal party – i.e. one opposed to granting basic human rights on the basis of ethnicity.

    Their political church may have changed, and all major political churches are necessarily broad, but that is just a tribal thing, not indicative of policy stances. We have seen that sort of thing here, remember?

    One of the blocks Obama failed to overcome in his first term, when the democrats actually held a slim supermajority (just a simple majority is not good enough in the US Senate), was the group called the Blue Dog Democrats, who were acknowledged as being very conservative (i.e. Republican) in their thinking. This group ensured Obama was very limited in what he could get through. Funnily enough, it was almost wiped out in the mid-term elections which were a triumph for the Republicans in what may yet turn out to be only a phallic pyrrhic victory.

    And another example of confusion of left/right variety, is that the very states in the US most in support of small to non-existent government are by far the primary beneficiaries of state spending. So they oppose government spending, which makes them right wing, but they accept such spending as an entitlement, which makes them left wing.

    Confused? Where’s Burt when you need him! (Apologies to reader too young to remember the sitcom called Soap).

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  90. tom hunter (4,665 comments) says:

    In that case, they were departing for a more illiberal party – i.e. one opposed to granting basic human rights on the basis of ethnicity.

    That would be the party that had just enabled LBJ to grant those basic human rights on the basis of ethnicity, since a huge chunk of his own Democrat party refused to support it. Hardly surprising since it was that other party that had been pushing such laws for decades and been stymied by Democrats who were feted inside the party in order to get their votes for Social Security and all those other wonderful left-wing ideas – as they did with KKK guy, Senator Bryd, who never once faced a Democrat primary change once in power. When the collective calls for the greater good there’s no shame.

    It’s also a typical slur of the left. Southern Republicans who’d been fighting this crap for decades (often being unable to even field a candidate), until their Civil Rights Act finally broke the Democrats hold on the South as whites realised that Jim Crow was dead and there was no longer any other reason to vote Democrat. Even the most racist of Democrats would have known they weren’t going to get segregation back by voting for the party that had been foremost in destroying it.

    But in lefty-world the argument is that even though the Democrats opposed civil rights and the Republicans supported them, the Republicans must suffer from guilt-by-association with racist Democrats but Democrats can never suffer from guilt by association with racist Democrats.

    It’s okay though folks – it’s just Luc failing to read further upthread and pulling history from his bum to convince everyone that he and his cohorts are, as ever, on the side of the angels, like all left-wingers.

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  91. F E Smith (3,324 comments) says:

    they were departing for a more illiberal party – i.e. one opposed to granting basic human rights on the basis of ethnicity.

    Which is a strange thing to say, considering that the Republican party voted overwhelmingly in favour of the civil rights changes, whilst the southern Dems voted overwhelmingly against them.

    One would think that would mean that Luc, once again, is telling porkies.

    That is nothing new, nor is the sight of a lefty to say that the Republicans are racist without actually having foundation for that.  To the left, right wing means racist. Except, of course, that when you look at the racist groups economic policies, they are almost all left wing (even that moron Kyle whatsisname’s Far Right Resistance).

    EDIT: I see that Tom beat me to it. Well said, Mr Hunter!

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  92. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    “The real issue is in the practice of hiding behind a hood virtual or otherwise while abusing and inciting violence ” – you mean like the Australian Labor Party?

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  93. RightNow (6,966 comments) says:

    Many leaders of the left in fact have worse records than the KKK:

    Joseph Stalin
    Kim Jong Il
    Che Guevara
    Fidel Castro
    Pol Pot
    Robert Mugabe
    Abdullah Öcalan

    And let’s not forget the German guy who said this to Otto Strasser, Berlin, May 21, 1930:
    “I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. . . . What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism.”

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  94. unaha-closp (1,155 comments) says:

    I on the other hand am a liberal, so I am neither racist nor conservative nor reactionary. In other words, I am at the opposite end of the political spectrum from the KKK. And here’s the rub:

    If I am a left winger as you so often maintain, surely my opposite would be a right winger? Ergo the KKK being my opposite are right wingers.

    No what you are is a centrist, who identifies as left of centre.

    The Left wing and the Right wing are big tents. They both exist on the basis that they want everyone to vote for them except the kooks.

    The KKK are not acceptable to either major political faction, they aren’t right wing and aren’t left wing. They are* an ultra small minority bunch of politically untouchable kooks.

    * Once the KKK were major political force in the Southern USA and they were Democrats (FDR courted their support), but that was a long time ago.

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  95. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    Blount you don’t appear to know what liberal means.

    Look it up dimwit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

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  96. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    There is a difference between calling yourself a Liberal and being Liberal. This distinction is often missed by those people prone to left wing ideas.

    Liberal is a better description of right wing philosophy than it is of the left.

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  97. PaulL (6,015 comments) says:

    @mikeinmild:

    ‘in fact history did find many KKK being from the left’

    How are we going to move on if you repeat something so foolish?

    Senator Byrd. Is 1. How many examples do you need? It is fact. I didn’t say all, I’m not sure I even have evidence that proves most (although I suspect in the past that was true), but I did say many. Th eoriginal assertion was none, we’ve disproved that assertion. There is no obligation to prove that no KKK members supported Republicans, nor that all KKK members supported Democrats. Only that some KKK members were Democrats. Which is demonstrated.

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  98. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Your error is founded on the assumption that Democrats are left wing and Republicans are right wing.
    No one has disputed that the KKK was linked to the southern Democrats. If you care to review the first comment, it was taking issue with an assertion from Selwyn Pellett that ‘History didn’t record too many KKK being from the left, let alone behind any lynchings. Just saying!’ RightNow tried to take issue with that by pointing out the links between Democrats and the KKK. All I ever said was that didn’t make the KKK a left-wing organisation.

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  99. tom hunter (4,665 comments) says:

    And as long we stay focused on the KKK, the left will be fairly comfortable.

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  100. PaulL (6,015 comments) says:

    OK, so your assertion is that the US Democrats aren’t now, and never have been, left wing? Or your assertion is that despite links between the KKK and some Democrats in the past, that doesn’t make the KKK a left wing organisation?

    If the former, then let’s agree to disagree. I consider the US Democrat party to be left wing. If you don’t, then there’s nothing left to talk about, as you can presumably just adjust your definition of the left such that nobody who was associated with the KKK could possibly be left wing, and you’ve created a self-fulfilling description.

    If the latter, I’ll call strawman, since that wasn’t the question that was being answered.

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  101. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Yes, the Democratic Party is not left wing. As someone asked above, can anyone identify any policy of the Democrats that is more left wing than any policy of our own National Party?

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  102. Sonny Blount (1,848 comments) says:

    As I said above mikenmild. The Democrat Party will take 40% of your worth from your children when you die. They spent billions bailing out union workers pensions in the auto industry. They spent a trillion on Keynesian stimulus. They forbid coastal oil drilling. They canned the European missile defense shield. They want to increase taxes on everyone earning over $250,000 (which shock, horror includes Warren Buffets secretary)

    America is the birthplace of most of the modern left wing movements, Feminism, Environmentalism, Global Warming, Occupy all arose there. There is a strong tradition of left wing thought and organisation that includes the Democrat Party. Thankfully, the American voting public is smarter than most and has elected Republicans in 7 out of 11 Presidential elections since the height of the 60’s protest movements.

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  103. tom hunter (4,665 comments) says:

    Were that the case I would have thought that “Millsy” and others would regularly unleash the hate on Democrat politicians. But I can’t recall any instance of such, just occasional grumbling. The hate is reserved for the GOP, as for National party people here in NZ.

    But since this claim has become another regular standard talking point for the NZ left – can anyone identify any policy of the Labour party that is more left wing than any policy of the Democrats? Or do we have to go to the Greens to find a true Scotsman?

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  104. Scott Chris (6,017 comments) says:

    This *is* the KKK:

    :arrow: “Stay firm in your convictions. Keep loving your heritage and keep witnessing to others that there is a better way than a war torn, violent, wicked, socialist, new world order. That way is the Christian way – law and order – love of family – love of nation. These are the principles of western Christian civilization. There is a war to destroy these things. Pray that our people see the error of their ways and regain a sense of loyalty. Repent America! Be faithful my fellow believers. ”

    National Director of The Knights, Pastor Thomas Robb

    http://www.kkk.com/

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