Debate on having children

February 8th, 2012 at 4:39 pm by David Farrar

Danyl at blogs in response:

But the point here is that having a couple of children shouldn’t be a ‘bad personal choice’ for everyone not earning a high income. 

It’s not a couple of children. I don’t disagree that a couple of children shouldn’t be a bad personal choice. This was four children though. One from a previous relationship, and three from this one. I stand by my view that if your household income is $42,000 a year, then it is not a good time to have a fourth child.

This used to be a country in which a family could be comfortably supported on a single, average income.

$42,000 a year is below the average personal income (for a FT employee) and well below the average household income for a couple. And four children is twice as much as two children.

That’s because our median wages remain stagnant while our living costs continue to rise.

Untrue. Our median after tax wage has increased in real terms.

Choosing your family size to meet your budget is nothing new. It is what the vast majority of couples do. Many well off couples decide to say limit their family to two or three kids, as a third or fourth kid would be too expensive.

I have a lot of sympathy for families with children, who fall on hard times, say with one or both parents losing their job. That is why we have a multi-billion dollar state with benefits and Working for Families.

But if a family is already finding it tough to make ends meet, and chooses to have further children, then I have less sympathy.

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82 Responses to “Debate on having children”

  1. Spam (586 comments) says:

    Smoking causes cancer, so we have campaigns to stop people smoking.
    Drunk driving causes accidents, so we have campaigns to stop people driving drunk.
    Problem / compulsive gambling causes financial hardship, so we have campaigns to stop problem gambling.
    Domestic violence causes harm to individuals and society so we have campaigns to stop domestic violence.

    Having children you can’t afford causes child poverty. Where is the family planning campaign?

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  2. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    This of course is a symptom of a society that has lost its way and is on its way out.

    The most important economic activity that any society undertakes is the raising of children because if it doesn’t it dies out.

    Those of us who are awake know that the current problems in Greece,Italy, Spain etc have at their heart the failure of these nations to produce enough children and we also know that this has occurred in Northern Europe too where the problem, for now, has been swept under the rug by immigration.

    See, for example, this post by Lindsay Mitchell: What our children face

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  3. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    “This used to be a country in which a family could be comfortably supported on a single, average income.”

    Load of old bollocks
    remember the praise latch key kids

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  4. kowtow (6,733 comments) says:

    The way it should be;

    Husband and wife,Dad working,Mum at home. Good wage and can afford to have as many children as they know they can bring up well, together.

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  5. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    I’m a regular reader of the DimPost. I started reading it for the satire, but lately it’s started to become a sort of ‘The Standard: Hipster Edition’.

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  6. Odakyu-sen (248 comments) says:

    I got back from a visit to the wife’s family in Kanagawa-ken, Japan (35 km SW of Yokohama). The Japanese population has peaked and is on the way down. They are going to have to deal with a top-heavy demographic for the next couple of generations until the birst rate recovers to 2.1+ per woman (which I think it will, eventually). I think it would be nice if the population were to fall from the current 125 million to around 50 million. That would free up much more space and take a lot of pressure off urban infrastructure.

    House prices are off about 40% from 20 years ago. Rents haven’t changed in 15 years.

    No population can go on increasing geometrically forever. There comes a point where you have to choose quality over quantity. (An aging population will be hard to support, but time will solve the problem.)

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  7. EbolaCola (8 comments) says:

    “But if a family is already finding it tough to make ends meet, and chooses to have further children, then I have less sympathy.”

    The children are not responsible for the size of the family and deserve the same level of sympathy and support regardless of their parents choices.

    [DPF: They do get generous state support. But the more kids you have on a low income, the tougher it will be]

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  8. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    “The children are not responsible for the size of the family and deserve the same level of sympathy and support regardless of their parents choices.”

    Support from who? Are we to take them out of the homes of the hapless and raise them as our own if we’re expected to finance them?

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  9. wat dabney (3,466 comments) says:

    Frankly if I’m expected to pay for other people’s children then I expect conjugal rights.

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  10. EbolaCola (8 comments) says:

    The reason you pay for other peoples children is so that they grow up to be productive tax payers who will support you in your retirement.

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  11. kowtow (6,733 comments) says:

    ebolacola

    If the children aren’t responsible for their parents choices, I’d be interested to know why the taxpayer is,if that’s what you’re suggesting.

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  12. RRM (8,997 comments) says:

    This leftie really despairs at some of the ideas espoused by leftie political commentators in NZ sometimes.

    The sense of being entitled to personal utopia, and the sense that “someone” (anyone) should just stump up and provide. Why do literate, clever people get this idea that stuff should just happen for them?

    …having a couple of children shouldn’t be a ‘bad personal choice’ for everyone not earning a high income.

    This used to be a country in which a family could be comfortably supported on a single, average income.

    Well, now it’s not Danyl. Life sucks.

    YES it would be wonderful for everyone if they could make as many babies as their hearts desired.

    Unfortunately, in the real world where we live (the world of what is, as opposed to the world of what should be, or the world of what would be jolly nice) babies consume stuff, and stuff has to be paid for. So your desire to have babies has to be curbed by your ability to earn money to pay for stuff.

    If there is a shortfall between the amount of stuff your babies consume and the amount you are able to provide, then what Danyl? Actually, then what? Do you ask some generalised, perhaps nationalised “other” to just stump up and give you stuff? Because if you do, then surely they have the right to ask questions like

    :arrow:”Why should we pay for the costs of raising your children as well as our own?”

    :arrow:”What spare money do you imagine we have, that we would do this with?”

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  13. Cactus Kate (538 comments) says:

    Andrei would also have us believe that homosexual people are about to take over the world in their efforts to cause depopulation.
    One thing the world is not short of is people. Oil? Gold? Habitable land? Food? Yes entirely imaginable. 7 billion people? No.

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  14. Steve (4,330 comments) says:

    @wat dabney 5.35pm

    Have you seen some of the bush pigs that are abusing the Welfare Services?
    Check first before you jump

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  15. Cactus Kate (538 comments) says:

    Ebolacola – those in retirement now are paying for couples who are not net taxpayers to have more children. Can’t you see where this heads? In tears that is where.

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  16. fatnuts (164 comments) says:

    Don’t we need increasing numbers of kids to support the superannuation ponzi scheme?

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  17. Michael (880 comments) says:

    Andrei – if having lots of children means economic prosperity then Romania would be the richest country in Europe. Contraception and abortion were banned under Communist rule, and large families were “encouraged” by officials.

    I have two children, they want for nothing material and I would hope that they feel loved, encouraged, and given the right direction in life. I grew up in a household where money was tight (I’m sure by every measure I would have counted as a child raised in poverty) but I certainly felt loved, encouraged and given the right direction in life.

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  18. davidp (3,329 comments) says:

    wat dabney>Frankly if I’m expected to pay for other people’s children then I expect conjugal rights.

    Last time I checked, exercising conjugal rights with children was frowned upon.

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  19. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    Romania’s population is declining Michael and has been for twenty years.

    It shares a problem with NZ in this regard those who have marketable skills go elsewhere to market them – two of mine have gone already better opportunities elsewhere you see.

    CC,

    there maybe plenty of people but the key is where are they geographically and what values do they hold as well as skills? See it might be all well and good to import people from Burkina Faso to mop the floors in the old peoples homes but they might not agree with our western concepts like the human right to sodomy and if they grow in large enough numbers well those cherished freedoms might be replaced with other things ……..

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  20. Tautaioleua (266 comments) says:

    I’m all in favour of campaigns that promote a more sustainable family unit built within its means. We can not afford the three, four and five children families under existing circumstances.

    Working for Families should actively demote the idea of more children by creating incentives for one and two child homes.

    I see nothing wrong with it. Let’s get onto it right away. But the flip side to that is how will this influence future generations of our country? will it mean that we’re forced to encourage more migrant schemes in the next fifty to one hundred years?

    We’re already faced with brain drains and extreme skills shortages.

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  21. kowtow (6,733 comments) says:

    cactus
    the thing about that 7 billion is that they are a problem for the 3rd world or whatever it’s called now. In the west our population is declining, one major issue is how to prevent politicians from importing the masses of 3rd worlders who want to sponge whats left of our wealth ,with the lie of growth or whose going to look after all the oldies.

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  22. Northland Wahine (554 comments) says:

    Steve 5:47.

    For every bush pig that falls pregnant, there is a bush pig f**ker*.

    I am no advocating the blame lays at the sperm donors feet. These porkers did not fall pregnant by immaculate conception. BOTH parents are responsible for their children’s welfare. Sadly, all too often, only one is held accountable.

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  23. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    Two points that may push things into perspective:

    1) It is true that large families were the norm until the 60′s & 70′s. Those who perennially bleat that it requires two incomes to support a family conveniently overlook the vastly improved lifestyle NZ citizens enjoy today. Just off the top of my head we now have two cars per family, few grow a vege garden, less do their own preserving, no one darns clothes, kids are “deprived” without the latest consumer gadgets, kids did sleep three + to a room, houses were seldom over 100sq metres. I could go on but you’ll have the picture.

    2) Whether or not they feel financially deprived kids from large families cannot be given the one on one attention that is important emotionally & educationally. It matters not how well intentioned the parents are…there are only so many hours in the day. Any kid from a small attentive family is going to enjoy a quality of life that is far better than their counterpart who has to fight for a seat in the family mini bus.

    Quality or quantity?

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  24. ross (1,454 comments) says:

    > And four children is twice as much as two children

    I’m guessing DPF may have passed School Cert maths but it might have been a struggle.

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  25. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    Andrei @ 6.18pm

    Good grief man! Can’t you comment on one thread without bringing sodomy into it?

    Seek help.

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  26. gump (1,232 comments) says:

    DPF said:

    Untrue. Our median after tax wage has increased in real terms.

    ————————–

    Yes, but the cost of living has been increasing more that the after tax wage.

    The CPI figures mask the impact of price rises for certain types of goods.

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  27. Tautaioleua (266 comments) says:

    I’m not so sure nasska, I find only children to be slightly more demanding as a result of the undivided attention at home. They tend to rebel against authorities when they feel that their contributions aren’t being “valued” and “appreciated.”

    Those with more than one sibling are more collective-orientated, and they’re more open minded and selfless.

    Teachers often reinforce this observation.

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  28. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    Tautaioleua

    Point taken……only kids can easily become spoiled brats & a sibling or two helps a kid learn social behaviour. Over three or four kids in a family is where unintended neglect can become a problem.

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  29. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Andrei would also have us believe that homosexual people are about to take over the world in their efforts to cause depopulation.
    One thing the world is not short of is people. Oil? Gold? Habitable land? Food? Yes entirely imaginable. 7 billion people? No.

    What an utterly stupid comment, typical bloody capitalist utopian crap.

    There may be plenty of people in the world but there are only so many NZers that hold the values common to this land.

    This dopey argument is about as smart as saying we shouldn’t bother saving the Brown Kiwi because there are plenty of other birds in the world.

    (Waits for Cate to say we shouldn’t save the Brown Kiwi………)

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  30. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    The real point is if you want doctors, nurses, civil engineers, wine waiters, road marking painters and so forth thirty years from now somebody has to be conceiving and raising them now – that’s the bottom line.

    There isn’t anyway around it

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  31. Lindsay (135 comments) says:

    DPF “I have a lot of sympathy for families with children, who fall on hard times, say with one or both parents losing their job. That is why we have a multi-billion dollar welfare state with welfare benefits and Working for Families.”

    Aren’t you mixing safety nets and ongoing tax credits? And, are you now a convert to WFF?

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  32. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Yeah it’s all about urges innit? You won’t have much success telling people not to have more kids if they really want to. Until recently there were other sexual/reproductive civil liberties denied until reform bills were passed in NZ.
    You can never legislate against “urges” that fall within moral bounds. And I’m sure most people don’t plan on neglecting kids apart from Steve’s bush-pigs.
    Just realised nothing says “fanboy” like adding a smiley face to one’s post.

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  33. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Ebolacola – those in retirement now are paying for couples who are not net taxpayers to have more children.

    Utter bullshit.

    Those in retirement now have lived through some of the most prosperous times in our nations history, they are fat of the wealth of the land and will live their remaining days in comparative luxury.

    For me and my kids? we will be lucky if we can “retire” at all.

    Baby boomers that have collectively feathered their own nests are a nothing more than parasites on the futures of others and the damage has been done, the fact that the bastards are now complaining about the next generation is more than a little hard to tolerate.

    If the ACT party manages to gain any traction God help us.

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  34. tas (530 comments) says:

    I have a lot of sympathy for children that grow up in poverty. But I don’t blame society in general or unspecified rich pricks. The blame lies squarely with the parents. (Unless, of course, it is due to unforseen events, such as losing a job or a divorce.)

    If you are struggling to make ends meet and know that the situation won’t improve, yet have another child anyway, then you knew full well that that child will grow up in poverty. You made the decision to bring that child into an impoverished household. Therefore you are to blame.

    We shouldn’t abandon the children, but we shouldn’t pretend the parents are blameless.

    ———————————————————————

    High fertility rates are correlated with poverty and poor health. Here is a nice graph comparing fertility to life expectancy in different countries and GDP per capita as size.

    Click here to see graph.

    Clearly it’s the poor shitty countries that are breeding like rabbits. What’s my point? Well, if you think that people who have more kids than they can afford are doing this country a great service, then you are gravely mistaken.

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  35. MrTips (134 comments) says:

    I think the best contributions to this argument come from Cactus Kate and DPF.

    They do not have, nor do they show any inclination to have, children.

    God bless them, the world is better for it.

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  36. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    And for the record DPF, what the hell would you know about marriage and raising kids? I am sure you aren’t a monster but at the end of the day perhaps understanding where your “understanding” gets a bit thin wouldn’t be such a bad thing.

    You are not exactly living like the typical Kiwi male you know and I don’t intend that to be offensive, but it is the truth isn’t it?

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  37. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    What’s my point? Well, if you think that people who have more kids than they can afford are doing this country a great service, then you are gravely mistaken.

    And what you are “gravely mistaken” about is this stupid notion that everybody on a low income that has more than two kids is some kind of bludger drain on the country.

    Tell me this, who costs more to the country, a large family with strong family values or a high income family that raises little hell-raisers that crash cars and smash up public property.

    This argument is all about a very ugly hidden prejudice from those on the right like Cactus Cate and several key cementers here, namely that “poor people” are “bad” people and are always a drain on the economy.

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  38. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Ebolacola – “The reason you pay for other peoples children is so that they grow up to be productive tax payers who will support you in your retirement.”

    No it’s not, there’s not enough (and won’t be under any government NZ elects) jobs in NZ to support that supposition. Thank Stephen Tindall and cheap overseas labour.
    Only about half of NZ households pay net tax now, the family on an income of $42k is a net tax beneficiary.

    Shunda barunda: “Tell me this, who costs more to the country, a large family with strong family values or a high income family that raises little hell-raisers that crash cars and smash up public property.”
    In financial terms and assuming you’re referring to the family in this post (and a generic family of ‘hell-raisers’?) then clearly the high income family returns more in taxes, and probably in other ways to the economy like spending more on insurances, panel beaters and builders.

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  39. EbolaCola (8 comments) says:

    Cactus Kate

    You can be as judgmental as you like about shitty parents who are a burden on society and harming the development of their children.

    You can admonish them, offer them contraception and offer to pay them to be sterilized….

    When a child is born you cannot judge the child based on the failings of their parents.

    As a decent and wealthy society we owe every child a fair shot at life, its called equality of opportunity.

    You will find that the vast majority of NZers and our representatives in Labour, National, NZ First… share this belief.

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  40. thor42 (780 comments) says:

    If the Nats, in the Budget this year, remove all incentives for bennies to breed, their poll ratings should go up by 5% overnight.
    I am ***sick and tired*** of bennies breeding like rabbits, having children that they can’t afford to feed. Having children that they then expect TAXPAYERS to pay for. So much for “personal responsibility”.
    ***THAT*** (bennies overbreeding) is the cause of “poverty” – NOTHING ELSE.

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  41. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    ebola,

    Your answer is the ambulance at the bottom of the poor choice cliff, yes it’s the compassionate / socialist answer however it doesn’t motivate the change in behaviour needed to solve the problem of families who can’t afford themselves.

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  42. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Only about half of NZ households pay net tax now, the family on an income of $42k is a net tax beneficiary.

    Bullshit. Farmers don’t pay as much tax as I do and my gross business income is between 35000 and 45000 per annum.

    Even with my WFF payments for my 4 kids I am still a net tax contributor, and don’t forget that 15% of everything I buy for my kids (food, clothing, fuel, people mover, holidays..) goes straight back to the govt in GST.

    Also don’t forget that the values I am teaching my kids also will ensure they are productive low cost citizens, sometimes living modestly makes you a better person.

    When you consider the value of the services I offer various govt agencies and the money I save them (transit, DOC, regional council, district council) my value as a citizen is far higher than the value of some poor value for money CEO that can’t be bothered doing his job properly.

    I come across it all the friggin time.

    It is the educated high salary ‘beneficiaries’ and their disgusting sense of entitlement that is pulling our economy (and the global economy) down, not low income families.

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  43. tas (530 comments) says:

    Shunda barunda:

    And what you are “gravely mistaken” about is this stupid notion that everybody on a low income that has more than two kids is some kind of bludger drain on the country.

    I’m not saying that. I am merely countering the claim made by some commenters that having more children than you can afford is justified because it helps our population statistics. Quality, not just quantity.

    Tell me this, who costs more to the country, a large family with strong family values or a high income family that raises little hell-raisers that crash cars and smash up public property.

    I can’t answer that hypothetical and it’s irrelevant anyway. Murder is worse than burglarly, but that doesn’t make burglars good people.

    This argument is all about a very ugly hidden prejudice from those on the right like Cactus Cate and several key cementers here, namely that “poor people” are “bad” people and are always a drain on the economy.

    No. This argument is about whether or not people should be responsible when it comes to having children. Wealth has almost nothing to do with it. A millionaire who abandons his illegitimate children is less responsible than a working class family who can support their one or two children.

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  44. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    However much it may grate on the people who have to fund it, offering a financial incentive to accept voluntary sterilisation would IMHO be wildly successful. Don’t be miserable about it & offer a couple of grand…..make it $20/25K. This amount would be irresistible to the very people you are targeting….those who breed for payouts.

    If someone genuinely wants a large family for cultural or religious reasons it will not affect them. Letting the truly hopeless cases root like rabbits for as long as they wish without foisting more kids, destined for a life of neglect, onto the public purse has no down side.

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  45. Viking2 (10,744 comments) says:

    Frankly this is anargument that adults without kids and never likely too should pull their selfish heads in and STFU./ For they know nothing. Nothing at all about a family and the bonds etc that are within a family.

    Usually they grow old lonely forever.

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  46. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    What Shunda barunda says is true.

    He is investing his time, energy and money into the future.

    The childless wealthy put their dosh into cars, overseas holidays and fancy restaurants, whereas the aforesaid commentator puts his into school books, school camps, ballet lessons and rugby boots or similar raising his kids to be the Doctors, Nurses, engineers and so forth this country will need in twenty years.

    I may be wrong on the detail but not on the substance

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  47. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    Do we have to be god botherer’s to comment on breeding subsidisation issues viking?

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  48. tas (530 comments) says:

    Andrei:

    Raising children to be good citizens is a wonderful thing and it should be applauded. But wilfully bringing children into poverty is grossly irresponsible. Blaming someone else for your irresponsibility is dishonest. And finally claming that you’re doing the country a service by creating more child poverty need for welfare is farcical.

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  49. Steve (4,330 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine (23) Says:
    February 8th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
    Steve 5:47.

    “For every bush pig that falls pregnant, there is a bush pig f**ker*.

    I am no advocating the blame lays at the sperm donors feet. These porkers did not fall pregnant by immaculate conception. BOTH parents are responsible for their children’s welfare. Sadly, all too often, only one is held accountable.”

    Easy meal ticket when the TAXPAYER foots the bill. That is me. I am sick of paying for SOCKs

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  50. reid (15,603 comments) says:

    I am sick of paying for SOCKs

    So am I but how do we stop it? In a way that could be sold to the electorate? And in a way that doesn’t affect nay supports people such as Shunda, who is doing the absolute right thing?

    And let’s just not get all airy fairy and imagine people will only do the right thing if only we told them to stop it. For they won’t. We know they won’t.

    So, how do we stop it. And, most importantly, sell it? When you have almost 50% of the country all too willing to believe that any move in that direction even a tiny one, is literally a holocaust on children? Imagine the weeping and wailing.

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  51. tas (530 comments) says:

    reid:

    I am sick of paying for SOCKs

    So am I but how do we stop it? In a way that could be sold to the electorate? And in a way that doesn’t affect nay supports people such as Shunda, who is doing the absolute right thing?

    First we need to understand why some people are so irresponsible when they have children. Then we can address the causes.

    My two cents: I suspect that a lot of people just don’t think of the consequences. Maybe some kind of education drive would help.

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  52. wreck1080 (3,533 comments) says:

    “Our median after tax wage has increased in real terms.”

    Where does this figure come from? I doubt it.

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  53. reid (15,603 comments) says:

    First we need to understand why some people are so irresponsible when they have children.

    That’s easy. They’re spiritually poor. Not as in: they lack religion, but as in: they don’t recognise the uplifting nature of being human and everything that entails.

    Most people don’t recognise that until their first child happens because we’re not built to. Instead they kind of fall into it over the years.

    Most people don’t therefore recognise the huge responsibility, the huge weight that is laid on their shoulders until they cradle their first borne. Some people don’t get it till their second and sometimes, their third. But most people even the thickest most self-centred idiot has by then woken up to the fact this is not a game.

    But some never do. Some never do. It’s those who cause this issue we’re debating, and my question is, since it doesn’t take education, intellect or wealth to feel that huge weight, what is different about most people who do and the subjects of this debate, who never do, no matter how many they have?

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  54. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Shunda
    Is under the mistaken belief that she /he /it pays tax
    a net taxpayer is one who pays more in tax than they receive in benefits
    if you have four children on 40000 per year you are defiantly not a net tax payer
    you have to realize the the benefits you receive in education justice health well exceed the few hundreds that you pay

    Its rights verses obligation
    you have a right to have children you have an obligation to support said children
    not to take on the obligation negates the right
    I have a right to receive the fruits of my labor That does not make me obliged to support your stupid choices or support your children

    Tax is state sanctioned theft the least we should do is minimize that theft

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  55. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    reid

    It would be possible to write a book in response to your question but I could also answer in a couple of words….empathy deficiency.

    The way you react would mirror your upbringing…..so with the low life who don’t respond to the normal triggers.

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  56. reid (15,603 comments) says:

    I have a right to receive the fruits of my labor

    Yes Griff but does this mean it is your decision entirely how your taxes are spent?

    To what extent is life about helping others and to what extent does happiness arise therefrom and to what extent is being a parent about helping others and to what extent if that is the case, is “justice” about helping others to help others?

    OTOH to what extent is life about holding others to account for their decisions?

    The way you react would mirror your upbringing…..so with the low life who don’t respond to the normal triggers.

    So is the answer educating the low life? Even if they don’t want to be?

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  57. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Oh dear, another one of these horribly offensive threads.

    As my three year old says when she hears me waxing not-so-lyrical when dickhead commentators spray their bile, “What do, Dad. What do?”

    Maybe, in response to this tripe:

    We shouldn’t abandon the children, but we shouldn’t pretend the parents are blameless.

    what we should do is just make having children a criminal offense if it occurs without the permission of the elite, the 1%, or even the O.1%

    After all, one could think, what kid would want to be born into society that considers the natural processes of reproduction a blameworthy endeavor!

    Except that it appears that society already exists in this country.

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  58. reid (15,603 comments) says:

    After all, one could think, what kid would want to be born into society that considers the natural processes of reproduction a blameworthy endeavor!

    Luc you seem to be saying: everyone should fuck as much as they want with zero regard for anything least of all the human beings that are born as a result since “the natural processes of reproduction” should not be thought of as a blameworthy endeavor!

    That seems a bit irresponsible from a father, quite frankly. Or do you really think something other than that?

    tas, sorry I hadn’t read your 9:05 before my 9:29, you’re quite right, IMO.

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  59. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    reid

    The more I read about it, the more I think about it, the less I know what would work. Somehow I doubt that education is the answer in many cases. After all empathy although one of the highest of the human emotions is essentially a learned response.

    A kid who grows up in a house getting belted black & blue by an emotionally neglectful mother is not picking up any positive or loving signals. He/she watching that same mother getting “the bash” from an equally abusive father figure sauced up on grog & substances is unlikely to later treat kids under their care much better.

    Maybe I’m having a doom/gloom night but I can’t see how anyone can intervene to break the cycle once that behaviour pattern has been hardwired.

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  60. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    rights and obligations reid
    rights without obligation is wot is driving us down this path
    I made a conscious decision not to have children at an early age Due to reasons I will not elaborate on
    As has my long time other half
    that does not mean that the pair of us do not put effort into helping others
    we are very much a net benefit to this country
    and I do not begrudge the dpb and other social welfare initiatives
    I do begrudge the attitude of persons that think they deserve helping without making an effort to help themselves
    My sister left a very bad relationship and used her time on the dpb to get an education she is now helping the deaf
    my brother is on the caregivers benefit to help my dad who has Alzheimer he also is involved with fostering children some of the fall out from dysfunctional familys
    we do not just take we also give back
    some take take take the moan for more or that they are disadvantaged

    rights and obligations

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  61. Manolo (12,643 comments) says:

    what we should do is just make having children a criminal offense if it occurs without the permission of the elite, the 1%, or even the 0.1%

    That’s a brilliant idea, Luc. Certainly, I deny you any right to procreate. :-)

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  62. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    Manolo

    I think Luc has moved on from procreating. After his Green principles forced him to sell the hydrocarbon consuming car his summer project has been turning the garage into a dungeon. SWMBO chains him to the wall, tells him he’s been a naughty boy & administers fifty lashes.

    He ejaculates vigorously at the 49th stroke but regrettably, as always, there’s a price to be paid……normal sex just doesn’t do it for him anymore.

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  63. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    do not forget the Jewish symbolism nasska
    mezuzah, tefillin, tzitzit and tallit, yarmulke, menorah, Star of David, and chai.
    all over the room so he can fantasize at being a nasty child killing Jew

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  64. reid (15,603 comments) says:

    Maybe I’m having a doom/gloom night but I can’t see how anyone can intervene to break the cycle once that behaviour pattern has been hardwired.

    When I talk about education I’m not talking about book learning and I’m not talking about voluntary only. I’m talking about making people get educated in the right as in correct values of empathy, peace and love for others and respect for oneself whether or not one is inclined to take oneself to the course. Look the people who cause this issue are plainly understood by comparison to all who don’t participate in their behaviour. Even people in the same socio-economic bracket who don’t cause it see what’s wrong and there are thousands of those who don’t do that for every one who does. Sometimes even in the same unit. Sometimes the mother doesn’t cause it but the father does and vice-versa. Most often it’s both in the same unit who do.

    But bottom line is, the people who do it, do it because something in their heads is fucked. We as a society have not yet got it together sufficiently to grab those people who do it by the throat, throw them up against the wall and demand they get their shit together right now and we don’t give a fuck whether they want to or not, that’s it, period.

    Until we as in, the entire country, start doing that to the tiny minority that do, nothing will change.

    By “grabbing them by the throat and throwing them against the wall” I don’t mean it literally because these people are adults with a ton of learned dysfunction in their tummies but I do mean it figuratively, in that, we, society, cannot and must not take no for an answer in dealing to their fucked attitudes. In many “dysfunctional” families you will often find at least one who isn’t. Sometimes you won’t but quite often you will find at least one who has dragged themselves out by their own bootstraps and made something of themselves and their kids. Sure, they themselves may not be lawyers and doctors yet. And their parent may be just a plumber or a mechanic. But their kids will be.

    It’s teaching all the “victims” that emulating those people is the answer. Whether they like it or not. But society thinks doing that is cruel. Furthermore, if you do that, then the lefties seem to think, that’s discwimination.

    But how discriminating is it, to have this get worse and worse and worse, year after year after year?

    If I were you I wouldn’t get despondent, for how can one change a “system” when the “system” works by giving people immediate gratification rather than short term pain for long term growth? That’s what politicians of all ilks promote. Imagine the success of any politician who promulgated otherwise?

    rights and obligations

    Your parents knew a thing or two Griff.

    It’s just a great shame the very people most in need of reading this thread never will. I’m not referring to the people who do this, I’m referring to the people whose jobs it is to find solutions to stop them from doing it. They’ll never read this and if they ever did, they wouldn’t understand the points people have been making.

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  65. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    reid

    I accept that without an element of compulsion you would never get the chance to engage with the group who most needs targeting. Supposing the hurdle of selecting the participants could be overcome (& you would have to trump every bit of national & international human rights law ever written) how could the message be taught?

    How can you teach emotions? Most of all how do you instill empathy?

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  66. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    There is hope nasska reid
    my partner often unloads the stress of her job on me I hear stuff that makes me cry
    Stuff that would make any sane person cry for humanity
    I also get told of kids striving to break free of the dreadful cycles of abuse
    There is hope and one of the positive attitudes developing is the realization that the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff is less valuable than help at the top we need to spend money on these kids from their early years we need a unified system including cyf police social welfare and education. This is being talked about and hopefully will be actioned within the term of the present government
    As long as we can root out the lefty apologist and admit that its not society fault its their own that is the root cause of the evil we are heading in the right direction

    New Zealand is one of the most sportive countries on the planet I am immensely proud of my country I wish more of us acknowledged this fact
    http://oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/00050000000

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  67. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Is it a full moon tonight?

    Sickos out in force, I see, reid and griff being two in particular having a good run of form.

    DPF much be very proud of the safe haven he provides the true lowlifes of our society.

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  68. reid (15,603 comments) says:

    nasska, if you can teach people how to be top flight lawyers, top flight CEOs, top flight politicians or top flight anything for none of those people – name any of them – were born with those skills – then why is it beyond the bounds of capability for an entire country to possess the resources to design programs to simply teach sub-normal people to be normal, whatever raw material we’re dealing with?

    Luc, you’re a sad sad sad case of a human being if you think there isn’t an answer to this except pretending they’re victims, they’ll always be victims and the only way their victimhood will be eased is if they listen to the bullshit you spout. I am almost certain you’re just saying what you said for effect mate but if you weren’t and you really believe what you said, I pity your children as well, for you Luc, aren’t the solution, you’re part of the problem.

    …we need to spend money on these kids from their early years we need a unified system including cyf police social welfare and education. This is being talked about and hopefully will be actioned within the term of the present government

    Yes we do Griff but no, it won’t happen with this govt, for this govt has a leader unfortunately who, despite his background, sees more value in not rocking the boat, than improving people’s lives.

    The really sad part is, he’s the best of the available alternatives. Pathetic, isn’t it.

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  69. Southern Raider (1,377 comments) says:

    If you look at these people they make bad choices all other the place. This couple in question not only claimed they couldn’t afford to feed the existing two kids, but had a third anyway.

    They also seem to have racked up quite alot of credit they were now struggling to payback for two cars and a new bedroom suite.

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  70. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    reid

    My point was more that while education can teach skills what needs to be instilled is empathy & maybe a few other emotions. Somehow you have to transplant currently foreign “triggers” into a brain that learned early that shutting off feelings was a good survival technique.

    The question remains….how do you “teach” an emotion?

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  71. reid (15,603 comments) says:

    The question remains….how do you “teach” an emotion?

    You don’t nasska. You teach (among other things) EQ – emotional intelligence. The intelligence that simply because you feel – [angry, violent, enraged, embittered, envious, powerless, helpless etc] that doesn’t mean you have to act on it.

    The baggage these people carry can’t be wiped away in a few EQ night classes. Of course not.

    But this is what holds them back and keeps them in their vicious cycle. These people do what they do – fuck like rabbits, beat their children and wife, drink like a fish, smoke like a dragon – because they’re emotionally fucked, not because they’re intellectually impaired. Although eventually the drugs take care of that too.

    But they don’t even know they’re doing it and they don’t even know there are alternatives since their parents did that and still do and so do their forty-something grandparents, until those grandparents die at 50, from drugs.

    Hence their resistance hence the need to compel, not ask them, to change.

    Like I said above, we know how to train people to do anything, these days. If the psychological, medical and educational professionals in this country today can’t come up with a program – whatever it involves – however much time it takes and whatever resources it takes – to change even the most recalcitrant of those people – then we have a pretty hopeless professional body in those fields in this country.

    All it takes is a political will to direct the resources and ride completely roughshod over the namby objections of every single academic in the land, who would throw their hands up in horreur at the humanity of such a thought. That’s partly why the idea is never mooted. It’s just too hard. The left won’t allow it.

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  72. Anthony (737 comments) says:

    NZers tend to flock overseas in large numbers but we in turn get lots of immigrants from the rest of the world (and hardly any from the third world) so the idea that we need to encourage more breeding to keep our population up doesn’t hold any water.

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  73. nasska (9,558 comments) says:

    reid

    I’ll stew on it. Still seems to come under the umbrella of ‘brainwashing’ which would be hard sell for anyone.

    Night all.

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  74. RightNow (6,350 comments) says:

    Shunda barunda:
    “Bullshit. ..etc”

    Your individual case may vary from the average but overall I’m prepared to say I’d be within say 15% of the average. If you really think I’m wrong I’d be happy for you to present a source of information. All I could find from a quick search was a Kiwiblog post: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/07/net_taxpayers.html

    Anyway, aside from that I don’t really disagree with you too much. The bulk of the money is going to leeches, some working directly for the government, others suppliers to government, certain NGO’s etc. If we could weed that out we’d have much more to spend on health and education.

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  75. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Shunda
    Is under the mistaken belief that she /he /it pays tax
    a net taxpayer is one who pays more in tax than they receive in benefits
    if you have four children on 40000 per year you are defiantly not a net tax payer
    you have to realize the the benefits you receive in education justice health well exceed the few hundreds that you pay.

    And because of my values I pay every fucking cent of tax I owe, ACC, PAYE for my staff, registration for my vehicles, road user charges, tax on fuel to run my work vehicles, council rates, regional rates, land lease, plus I collect and pay 15% tax for the govt free of charge from every single one of my clients and I pay 15% tax on every single dollar my family spends on food and everything else I purchase with the profit I make.

    You on the other hand most likely dodge as much tax as possible, it is people like me that keep this country going, don’t kid yourself to your deluded misplaced sense of self importance.

    Its rights verses obligation

    It’s reality vs the delusion of the selfish.

    you have a right to have children you have an obligation to support said children
    not to take on the obligation negates the right
    I have a right to receive the fruits of my labor That does not make me obliged to support your stupid choices or support your children

    You really are in a deluded world of hyper selfishness aren’t you. Think about this numskull, my kids won’t remain kids forever, at some point the tax the govt gets from me will increase and the support I get will decrease, my business will grow and my kids will start working. Any financial help I received while my family was young is an absolute INVESTMENT in the future of this country far less risky than the shit people like yourself get involved in (often dragging people like me down with the cock up).

    Tax is state sanctioned theft the least we should do is minimize that theft

    Tax is a necessity of a functioning society, tax should also be spent to help society function, that you only seek to enjoy all the benefits of such a situation and none of the responsibility is one of the greatest threats to continued collective prosperity.

    I am no socialist and can’t stand welfare abuse, but I absolutely see extreme capitalism as just as destructive, ignorant, and just plain bat shit crazy.

    You seriously need to broaden your understanding of what real investment in people is.

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  76. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Shunda barunda:
    “Bullshit. ..etc”

    Anyway, aside from that I don’t really disagree with you too much. The bulk of the money is going to leeches, some working directly for the government, others suppliers to government, certain NGO’s etc. If we could weed that out we’d have much more to spend on health and education.

    Absolutely totally agree with you. As my business develops I am finding myself working closer with various govt agencies and encountering some shocking inefficiencies. Get this, I gained a maintenance contract for a local body and found that I could complete the work for much less than the previous contractor while at a higher standard. The effing accountant started raising hell about unspent budgets. I tried to show this guy that we weren’t compromising on standards and had in fact been able to offer a higher service level than the previous contractor for less money. The prick then threatened that we would lose the contract if we didn’t start billing him for more!!!
    What do I do? stop putting food on the table or overwork a job because some friggin bean counter is so detached from reality that he can’t see it is ratepayers money that he is wasting unnecessarily.
    This is the problem with NZ, we no longer reward those providing an efficient service, but reward those that look “right” on paper.

    I have even worse experiences with other much larger central govt agencies.

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  77. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Shunda is an enabler of the system…a broke immoral and doomed system.

    “We were only obeying orders! It was our duty!”

    Sad……..

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  78. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    We have had recent dealings with a mother of four under-fives, who is trying to get pregnant again. When one of our staff suggested that maybe the size of her family was causing her financial stress, she was abused and told by the woman that it was her RIGHT to have as many children as she wanted. The outcome; a complaint from the woman to the Human Rights Commission and a mediation hearing where (surprise, surprise), her hurt feelings would evapourate in exchange for a cash settlement. Suffice to say, we haven’t paid a penny; nor will we. Sometimes the truth hurts.

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  79. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    You on the other hand most likely dodge as much tax as possible
    No I pay all taxes on my nett income

    You really are in a deluded world of hyper selfishness aren’t you
    Why do you state this Why is it selfish to expect reward for my efforts? Why is that bad yet expecting others to pay for your lifestyle choices is good?

    the shit people like yourself get involved in
    At present I am a landscaper you know my job is to make the enviroment beautiful I have been involved in projects that will leave a legacy of beauty for generations of the public

    that you only seek to enjoy all the benefits of such a situation and none of the responsibility is one of the greatest threats to continued collective prosperity.
    I am quit happy to pay tax to support society I am not Happy to support thousands of losers that just take

    It’s reality vs the delusion of the selfish.
    The selfish are those that take from society and give nothing back
    As a unit me and my partner give far far more in time effort and tax to society than we take

    Its Hypocritical that you are accusing me of being selfish for not wanting to pay for your choices Who is being self centered and selfish here

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  80. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    This used to be a country in which a family could be comfortably supported on a single, average income.

    Yeah, and this used to be a country where holidays abroad, meals out and pay TV weren’t seen as some kind of basic human right and growing your own veggies and making / mending your own clothes were just what you did…

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  81. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Why do you state this Why is it selfish to expect reward for my efforts? Why is that bad yet expecting others to pay for your lifestyle choices is good?

    Are you a bit dim? NO ONE IS PAYING FOR MY LIFE CHOICES BUT ME, all that means is I have less disposable income and don’t own a Holden v8 or a bloody jet ski.

    At present I am a landscaper you know my job is to make the enviroment beautiful I have been involved in projects that will leave a legacy of beauty for generations of the public

    Well what do you know, we have something in common.

    I am quit happy to pay tax to support society I am not Happy to support thousands of losers that just take

    Neither am I, I can’t stand welfare abuse and encounter the worst of it with some of the people in my area, but this crap about a family under 45k being bludgers is not always correct, the harm to society in not supporting families in the early years is far greater than saving a little bit of WFF. My wife and I were able to develop our business and have our children because of things like the family tax credit, what the hell is wrong with a govt investing in it’s citizens in this way? Like any investment it will bring a return, and in my case it will be a four fold return for the tax payer of NZ. Of course, you won’t see it this way if you are thinking short term or only thinking of no. 1.

    The selfish are those that take from society and give nothing back
    As a unit me and my partner give far far more in time effort and tax to society than we take

    And so do I, you can’t just assume that because I have kids and receive WFF I am some sort leach, I have been involved in projects that are literally transforming the town I live in and I have been fighting a war against degenerate ar$holes in the neighbourhood around me. The sort of urban renewal me and a few others are getting involved in will have a tremendous benefit for everyone, you can’t put a cost on that, because it simply wouldn’t happen without family people like me.

    Its Hypocritical that you are accusing me of being selfish for not wanting to pay for your choices Who is being self centered and selfish here

    You need to realise that dollars and cents is often not representative of the true value of an individual to society.

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  82. Bob R (1,254 comments) says:

    ***We have had recent dealings with a mother of four under-fives, who is trying to get pregnant again. When one of our staff suggested that maybe the size of her family was causing her financial stress, she was abused and told by the woman that it was her RIGHT to have as many children as she wanted***

    I have often suggested here that a sensible policy option would be to make contraception a condition of welfare. This would reap enormous dividends in terms of reduced welfare, criminal justice and legal aid costs.

    It would also reduce a number of negative externalities associated with the underclass and lower the cost of housing as people wouldn’t have to spend so much to get into a “good area” or avoid troublemakers.

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