General Debate 4 February 2012

February 4th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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185 Responses to “General Debate 4 February 2012”

  1. Akaroa (552 comments) says:

    Morning all!

    (Insert here your own facile ‘first-to-post-related’ observation of choice)

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  2. Akaroa (552 comments) says:

    (Or not – as the case may be!!)

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  3. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (340 comments) says:

    The Tino Rangatiratanga flag will fly in Wellington on Waitangi Day for the first time.
    Mayor Celia Wade-Brown announced yesterday that the Tino Rangatiratanga flag will fly from Wellington Town Hall on Monday.
    Mana Party leader Hone Harawira has thanked Ms Wade-Brown for pushing the Government to give the Maori flag the “official status it deserves”.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6364986/Maori-flag-to-fly-at-Wellingtons-town-hall

    … Based on the Māori text alone, in Article One the signatories appear to be ceding kawanatanga or governorship; while in Article Two the signatories are promised that their tino rangataritanga or highest chieftainship would remain undisturbed. This apparent inconsistency has led to much debate as to whether the Māori signatories intended to cede their sovereignty to the British Crown at all. …
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tino_rangatiratanga

    As the flag has been generally used in a protest context, is it in keeping with ‘the principles’ of the Treaty?
    Or is it just indicative of the confusing utterly-useless ill-written out-dated real estate agreement that the Treaty is?

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  4. XChequer (350 comments) says:

    Morning.

    Nice day for it.

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  5. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    This weeks joke.

    Shanghai Pengxin owner Jiang Zhaobai could not have got high up on China’s rich list “by accident” and ministers had the right to take that into account when they approved the sale of Crafar Farms to the Chinese firm.

    Said with a straight face in court by Sir Micheal Fays Lawyer.

    Bwhhaaahahahahahahah :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: all the way to the Bank.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/6364698/Crafar-sale-may-hinge-on-point-of-law

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  6. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    Um what was the number 4 years ago. A plane load a week.
    We are doing much better now. We have a plane load a day.
    There must be some reason why some of us are rather cyniucal of politics. Can’t think what that might be.

    Net outward migration at 10-year high
    By Brian Fallow
    5:30 AM Saturday Feb 4, 2012

    The net outflow of migrants continued unabated in December, pushing the population loss from migration for the whole of 2011 to 1900, the largest in 10 years.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10783335

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  7. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Lincoln Tan and Geoff Cumming and the Herald sub-editor practise propaganda before our very eyes:

    Brown St is just the latest suburban flashpoint in the nine years since the Prostitution Reform Act was passed, decriminalising the sex trade in a bid to make it safer for participants.

    From main centres – notably Auckland, Tauranga, Wellington and Christchurch – to small town Dannevirke, the legalisation of prostitution has felt the lash of moral panic…

    …Supporters of the status quo – including the Prostitutes Collective and academics who have looked at the health and safety impacts of the 2003 law change – maintain the location battles distort perceptions of a reform which has been largely positive for sex workers.

    “Sex happens in houses all over New Zealand,” says Dr Gillian Abel, an Otago University senior lecturer in public health. “The only difference is they are charging for it – whether it’s opposite a church or a school, there’s no difference.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10783338

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  8. flipper (3,832 comments) says:

    Good morning…
    Can we have a Waitangi/Maori “grievance-”free day today, in view of the fact that Monday will be devoted to wailing, posturing and making believe that in 1840 the Brits signed a “truce” that gave “equal status” to both parties?

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  9. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    V2

    My observation on the net migration out of NZ is that we are better off without a lot of them what are leaving.

    You only have to cast a cursory glance over any of the Aussie newspapers to see some of our best and brightest appearing in the Court news day after day, much like they did here.

    Obviously we are loosing some good familes as well but its not all doom and gloom.

    Personally I like seeing familes who have been on the dole here leave and we take in some of those nasty Chinese who might start a business and pay a bit of tax.

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  10. Manolo (13,516 comments) says:

    Can we have a Waitangi/Maori “grievance-”free day today..

    No. The greedy racists and their apologists will see to it.

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  11. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    reid,

    Why is it okay to have a church in ones neighbourhood but not a brothel?

    The brothel is probably quieter, imposes fewer parking problems and is of vastly more social value than a church or a mosque.

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  12. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Everyone likes looking at a roomful of gold…

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2095535/Bank-Englands-glittering-stash-156BN-gold-bars-stored-canteen-London.html

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  13. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6365113/Sex-dentists-name-stays-suppressed

    Name supression strikes again. “””The dentist was found guilty by the Dentists Disciplinary Tribunal last May of causing a patient to touch his penis while she was sedated in 2001. ”’

    A Canterbury dentist found guilty of making a patient touch him sexually while she was sedated under his care has been granted permanent name suppression by the High Court.

    But the dentist has given the High Court an assurance that he will tell patients of the convictions if he is asked.

    Promises to tell if asked, legend

    Patient: “Well, what are my chances of you making me touch your dick while I’m sedated then matey”

    Dentist: ‘Not so flash anymore I promised I’d give it up”

    FFS

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  14. Manolo (13,516 comments) says:

    Chalk another one for the racists.
    The mad woman in Wellington surrenders http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6364817/Waitangi-Day-will-see-Maori-flag-at-Town-Hall

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  15. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    Europe’s cold spell: Death toll rises to 220 and no end in sight
    The death toll attributed to the Arctic weather that has engulfed eastern and central Europe rose to over 220 as temperatures crashed to as low as -38C, and the freeze shows no signs of abating.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/9059519/Europes-cold-spell-Death-toll-rises-to-220-and-no-end-in-sight.html

    Luc will be along shortly.

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  16. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Reid, so how many trillions are the pommies up shit creek for?. It’s all smoke and mirrors, the people lose their pensions and welfare is slashed and the hip word is austerity. Meanwhile the IMF and their overlords the NWO strive to relieve so call bankrupted countries of their gold, austerity I believe it’s called. I wonder how much one gold bar is leveraged to print worthless paper money, I’m sure it’s hundreds of times more then what gold is worth an ounce on the world market. When it’s all said and done it’s all bullshit.

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  17. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    SS author John Cook gets schooled by Lord Christopher Monckton (ad-hom magnet)

    Mr. John Cook, who runs a website puzzlingly entitled Skeptical Science” (for he is not in the least sceptical of the “official” position) seems annoyed that I won the 2011 televised debate with Dr. Denniss of the Australia Institute, and has published a commentary on what I said. It has been suggested that I should reply to the commentary. So, seriatim, I shall consider the points made. Mr. Cook’s comments are in Roman face: my replies are in bold face. Since Mr. Cook accuses me of lying, I have asked him to be good enough to make sure that this reply to his commentary is posted on his website in the interest of balance.

    Chaotic climate

    Cook: “Monckton launched his Gish Gallop by arguing that climate cannot be predicted in the long-term because it’s too chaotic because, [Monckton says],

    ‘the climate is chaotic…it is not predictable in the long-term…they [the IPCC] say that the climate is a coupled, non-linear, chaotic object, and that therefore the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.’

    … It’s really quite self-evident that Monckton’s statement here is incorrect.”

    Reply: Paragraph 5 section 14.2.2.2 of the IPCC’s 2007 AR4 TAR report says:

    “In sum, a strategy must recognise what is possible. In climate research and modelling, we should recognise that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.”

    My quotation from the IPCC, given from memory, was in substance accurate. Here and throughout, I shall ignore Mr. Cook’s numerous, disfiguring, ad-hominem comments.

    Consensus

    Cook: “Monckton proceeds to demonstrate his confusion about the causal relationship between science and consensus: [he says: ‘the idea that you decide any scientific question by mere consensus [is incorrect].’ … He suggests that somehow climate science is done by first creating a consensus when in reality the consensus exists because the scientific evidence supporting the anthropogenic global warming theory is so strong.”

    Reply: This seems a quibble. Dr. Denniss had said he was satisfied with the science because there was a consensus. He had appealed repeatedly to consensus. Yet in the Aristotelian canon the argumentum ad populum, or headcount fallacy, is rightly regarded as unacceptable because the consensus view – and whatever “science” the consensus opinion is founded upon – may or may not be correct, and the mere fact that there is a consensus tells us nothing about the correctness of the consensus opinion or of the rationale behind that opinion.

    Adding carbon dioxide to an atmosphere will cause warming, but we need not (and should not) plead “consensus” in aid of that notion: for it is a result long proven by experiment, and has no need of “consensus” to sanctify it. However, the real scientific debate is about how much warming extra CO2 in the air will cause. There is no “consensus” on that; and, even if there were, science is not done by consensus.

    Mediaeval warm period

    Cook: “Every single peer-reviewed millennial temperature reconstruction agrees that current temperatures are hotter than during the peak of the [Mediaeval Warm Period]. …

    Reply: At http://www.co2science.org, Dr. Craig Idso maintains a database of papers by more than 1000 scientists from more than 400 institutions in more than 40 countries providing evidence that the medieval warm period was real, was global, and was generally warmer than the present, sometimes by as much as 3-4 C°. Many of these papers provide millennial reconstructions.

    Climate sensitivity

    Cook: “Where Monckton gets this claim that the Australian government’s central climate sensitivity estimate to doubled CO2 is 5.1 C° is a complete mystery.

    Reply: The “mystery” could and should have been cleared up by Mr. Cook simply asking me. The estimate is that of Professor Ross Garnaut, the Australian Government’s economic adviser on climate questions. It is on that figure that his economic analysis – accepted by the Australian Government – centres.

    Cook: “Monckton also repeats a myth … that most climate sensitivity estimates are based on models, and those few which are based on observations arrive at lower estimates. The only study which matches Monckton’s description is the immensely-flawed Lindzen and Choi (2009).”

    Reply: I am not sure what qualifications Mr. Cook has to find Professor Lindzen’s work “immensely flawed”. However, among the numerous papers that find climate sensitivity low are Douglass et al. (2004, 2007) and Coleman & Thorne (2005), who reported the absence of the projected fingerprint of anthropogenic greenhouse-gas warming in the tropical mid-troposphere; Douglass & Christy (2009), who found the overall feedback gain in the climate system to be somewhat net-negative; Wentz et al. (2007), who found that the rate of evaporation from the Earth’s surface with warming rose thrice as fast as the models predicted, implying climate-sensitivity is overstated threefold in the models; Shaviv (2005, 2011), who found that if the cosmic-ray influence on climate were factored into palaeoclimate reconstructions the climate sensitivities cohered at 1-1.7 C° per CO2 doubling, one-half to one-third of the IPCC’s central estimate; Paltridge et al. (2009), who found that additional water vapor at altitude (caused by warming) tends to subside to lower altitudes, allowing radiation to escape to space much as before and greatly reducing the water vapor feedback implicit in a naïve application of the Clausius-Clapeyron relation; Spencer and Braswell (2010, 2011), who found the cloud feedback as strongly negative as the IPCC finds it positive, explicitly confirming Lindzen & Choi’s estimated climate sensitivity; Loehle & Scafetta (2011), who followed Tsonis et al. (2006) in finding that much of the warming of the period 1976-2001 was caused not by us but by the natural cycles in the climate system, notably the great ocean oscillations; etc., etc.

    Cook: “Monckton at various times has claimed that climate sensitivity to doubled CO2 is anywhere between 0.2 and 1.6 C°.”

    Reply: I have indeed done climate sensitivity estimates by a variety of methods, and those methods tend to cohere at a low sensitivity. The IPCC at various times has claimed that a central estimate of climate sensitivity is 3.8 C° (1995); 3.5 C° (2001); and 3.26 C° (2007); and its range of estimates of 21st-century warming in the 2007 report is 1.1-6.4 C°. Ranges of estimates are usual where it is not possible to derive an exact value.

    Carbon pricing economics

    Cook: “Monckton employs the common ‘skeptic’ trick of focusing on the costs of carbon pricing while completely ignoring the benefits.”

    Reply: On the contrary: my analysis, presented in detail at the Los Alamos Santa Fe climate conference in 2011, explicitly calculates the costs of taxing, trading, regulating, reducing, or replacing CO2 and sets against the costs the cost of not preventing the quantum of “global warming” that will be reduced this century as a result of the “investment”. Yet again, if Mr. Cook had bothered to check I could have sent him my slides and the underlying paper.

    Cook: “Economic studies consistently predict that the benefits [of carbon dioxide control] will outweigh the costs several times over.”

    Reply: No, they don’t. True, the Stern and Garnaut reports – neither of them peer-reviewed – came to this conclusion by questionable methods, including the use of an absurdly low inter-temporal discount rate. However, if one were permitted to use the word “consensus”, one would have to point out that the overwhelming majority of economic studies on the subject (which are summarized in my paper) find the cost of climate action greatly exceeds the cost of inaction. Indeed, two review papers – Lomborg (2007) and Tol (2009) – found near-unanimity on this point in the peer-reviewed literature. Cook is here forced back on to the argument from consensus, citing only an opinion survey of “economists with climate expertise”. However, he does not say how many were interviewed, how they were selected, what weightings and other methods were used: and, in any event, the study was not peer-reviewed. Science is not, repeat not, repeat not done by opinion surveys or any form of head-count.

    Has Earth warmed as expected?

    Cook: “Monckton … repeats … that Earth hasn’t warmed as much as expected … [He says} ‘If we go back to 1750 … using the Central England Temperature Record as a proxy for global temperatures … we’ve had 0.9 C° of warming …’. It should go without saying that the temperature record for a single geographic location cannot be an accurate proxy for average global temperature.”

    Reply: Central England is at a latitude suitable to take the long-run temperature record as a fair proxy for global temperatures. However, if Mr. Cook were unhappy with that, he could and should have contacted me to ask for an independent verification of the 0.9 C° warming since 1750. Hansen (1984) found 0.5 C° of warming had occurred until that year, and there has been 0.4 C° of warming since, making 0.9 C°. Indeed, in another article on Mr. Cook’s website he himself uses a value of 0.8 C° in the context of a discussion of warming since 1970.

    The significance, of course, is that the radiative forcings we have caused since 1750 are equivalent to those from a doubling of CO2 concentration, suggesting that the transient sensitivity to CO2 doubling is around 1 C°.

    Cook: “… Human aerosol emissions, which have a cooling effect, have also increased over this period. And while 3 C° is the IPCC’s best estimate for equilibrium climate sensitivity, the climate system is not yet in equilibrium. Neglecting these two factors (aerosols and thermal inertia of the global climate), as Monckton and Lindzen have done, will certainly give you an underestimate of equilibrium sensitivity, by a large margin. This is how Monckton supports his lowball climate sensitivity claim – by neglecting two important climate factors.”

    Reply: Once again, Mr. Cook has failed to check his facts with me. Of course my calculations include the effect of aerosols (which, however, is by no means as certain in its magnitude as Mr. Cook seems to think). And of course I have not ignored temperature feedbacks (which Mr. Cook mistakenly confuses with “the thermal inertia of the global climate”: actually, it is I who have been arguing that there is considerable homoeostasis in global temperatures, and he who had earlier been arguing that global climate was not stable). If I am right about temperature feedbacks (see above), then the equilibrium sensitivity will be about the same as the transient sensitivity – around 1 C°. And that, on most analyses, would actually be beneficial.

    Cook: “The warming over the past 60 years is consistent with the IPCC climate sensitivity range and inconsistent with Lindzen and Monckton’s lowball climate sensitivity claims. Monckton claims the observational data supports his low sensitivity claims – reality is that observational data contradicts them.”

    Reply: Warming from 1950 to date was 0.7 C°. Net forcings since 1950 were 1.8 Watts per square meter, using the functions given in Myhre (1998) for the major greenhouse gases and making due allowance for aerosols and other negative anthropogenic forcings. The transient climate-sensitivity parameter over the period was thus 0.4 Celsius degrees per Watt per square meter, consistent with the 0.5 derivable from Table 10.26 on page 803 of IPCC (2007) on each of the IPCC’s six emissions scenarios. In that event, the transient warming in response to a doubling of CO2 concentration over the present century would be 0.4(5.35 ln 2) = 1 C°, again using a function from Myhre (1998). Interestingly, the IPCC’s implicit central estimate of warming from CO2 this century is only 50% above this estimate, at 1.5 C°.

    In short, even if the IPCC is right about the warming this century from CO2, that warming is simply not going to be enough to cause damage.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/03/monckton-responds-to-skeptical-science/

    I’m sure one of our SS defenders like Luc or Scott would be able to rebut any or all of Monckton’s points without resorting to ad hom and lies.
    Oh wait, no they won’t. I wonder if first they’ll deny he is legally entitled to call himself a Lord, before trying to paint him as a lunatic and a liar.

    The takeaway for me is that observations suggest a doubling of CO2 is accompanied by a 1 deg C rise in temperature.
    This is in complete agreement with the consensus that
    1) the temperature since 1800s has risen and
    2) humans have contributed to the rise.

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  18. kowtow (7,925 comments) says:

    It would appear that we can blame Key and his cabinet for any divisiveness relating to flying the “national Maori flag”.
    As far as I’m concerned a country can have only one national flag.

    http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-focus/archive/maoriflag/

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  19. Other_Andy (2,512 comments) says:

    @WD

    Record low temperatures in Europe.
    In Bulgaria the mercury dipped to lows not seen in a century
    Sydney has officially recorded its coldest start to summer in half a century.
    Worst Snowstorm in Five Years Hits Northwest Japan
    Temperatures dropping to record lows at 38 locations in Japan.
    ‎Alaska shivered through one of coldest Januarys on record.
    Korea saw record low temperatures for February.
    Ice growth in the Arctic breaks records going back to the 1970s.
    Italy records the coldest weather in 27 years.
    ‎In Rome, residents experienced only their second day of snow in the last 15 years.
    Britain experienced heavy snow and temperatures plunged to minus 12 degrees.

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  20. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Why is it okay to have a church in ones neighbourhood but not a brothel?

    Because a church doesn’t corrupt family values whereas a brothel does wat.

    I’m surprised that you are so blinded by your hatred of religion that you couldn’t work that out for yourself for its quite obvious to anyone at all whether or not they themselves are religious.

    But never mind. I forgive you. Perhaps if I wasn’t religious I wouldn’t but since I am, I do.

    Reid, so how many trillions are the pommies up shit creek for?

    Indeed ssb but it was just a pretty picture, that’s all. I understand the UK budget cuts are really hitting hard all over the place there. However luckily someone called White Spiritual Boy has bank accounts totalling quadrillions of dollars so I’m sure the tax revenues on that would cover the deficit of the entire world:
    http://www.gpnkoe.com/2011/02/selamat-datang.html
    Bank Account Data Sheet
    SWIFT Code: ASBLPAM12000
    ISIN Code: ASBLPAM99900
    Euroclear: EUASBLP12000

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  21. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    O-A

    Don’t worry the tax for global cooling is being drawn up ready to be charged to you prior to spring 2012

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  22. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    “Because a church doesn’t corrupt family values whereas a brothel does wat.”

    There’s a lot of altar boys that would say differently…

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  23. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    V2 @ 9.06

    The rate at which NZ loses its brightest & best is the real tragedy behind the planes full of emigrants. If there were seats full of treaty lawyers, local authority CEOs, climate scientists & other assorted parasites I would help load the planes & chip in a few bob for the fuel. Trouble is that those who depart, often never to return are engineers, doctors who can speak English & tradesmen.

    We replace these valuable citizens with uneducated, unemployable islanders & Muslim refugees then wonder why we are waving First World status goodbye.

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  24. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    reid are you taking the piss or completely insane? Surely you don’t seriously believe a bank account exists with US$ 2, 588, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 in it? That’s quite a few trillion trillion times larger than the world economy…

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  25. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Morning Friends and Romanrymen. We need an additional day for all of New Zealand. Then we can celebrate Maoridom on Waitangi Day and have an all out 4th of July, Sydney Harbour type celebration on another Day. Might end up with two public holidays worth celebrating .

    http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/02/death-after-birth.html

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  26. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    Naaska, that is partially correct as the stats I saw a while back show that the person leaving are spread across the spectrum of skills and non skills. Either way its not good and PEB you need to get out more and talk to some of those like I do. They are ordinary decent people who simply are unable to get work in NZ or who have family there that are so much better off that they just leave to join them. Defending the indefensible by defending the Nats. is a useless task.

    This is entirely due to a failure of leadership of Govt. and a failure to introduce favorable company and employment legislation. The Yanks are good at this,that’s why they now have everything offshored to the detrement of their own, Australia is now having to face up to it with only the mining sector offering any hope for the future.

    Try taking a world view, not a backwater view from the beach in Opotiki.
    PEB you are incensed by the Dotcom thing just like I am. If we treat wealthy that way what are we doing to those that are not.
    Why would one attempt to stay and get wealthy here when we won’t protect our citizens from over the top behavoir of some of your ex colleagues? Tell me when you ever saw 78 ninja’s in full battle costume and two helicopters ever raid a mongrel mob or Black Power “mansion” in that manner. A flamboyant person in an unrpotected house who has not committed any heinous crime the likes of what the MM or BP do but we send a minor army to thugerize him.

    No doubt the stupid will have something say about that. That’s your breal and dime.

    I see that the dole figures have gone up 2000 in January and that despite all those people leaving.
    Doesn’t that make you wonder what NZ Inc and the Govt. are doing wrong.

    It causes me to think about it.

    Thursday 76 jobs gone in CHCH.
    Yesterday 180 gone in Auckland.

    Two days and 256 jobs gone, families affected, govt finances affected. You and I affected.

    Think about the consequences and more particularly of the unintended consequences.

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  27. KevinH (1,151 comments) says:

    The official flag for New Zealand is the He Whakaputanga o te Rangitiritanga, The Declaration of Independence 1835:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Independence_of_New_Zealand.

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  28. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Other_Andy RightNow
    twin sheep

    you will not find honest science that clearly refutes CO2 caused global warming.
    you can find lots of:
    - it’s not happening, or
    - it’s cooling, or
    - what happened to global cooling back in the 70s, or
    - why is mars warming, or
    - it’s natural, just like it was in past cycles, or
    - there’s no way that a few of us could change the climate of the entire earth, or
    - if it is, there’s no way we could possibly stop it, or
    - if it is, that’s a good thing, because with all the extra people, we’ll need to grow more food.

    …of course, don’t mention every argument or else you’ll look stupid.

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  29. adze (1,994 comments) says:

    KevinH, have you read the article you linked? It suggests a confederation of tribes in the North of the North Island, nothing about the South or South Island.

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  30. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    reid are you taking the piss or completely insane? Surely you don’t seriously believe a bank account exists with US$ 2, 588, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 in it? That’s quite a few trillion trillion times larger than the world economy…

    I don’t know PIA. That’s why I included the account details. Sadly I cannot find out myself whether or not it really exists so I don’t know. The Rothschilds were trillionaires by the 1800′s BTW. The reason many don’t even know this elementary and easily researchable fact is because they own both Associated Press and Reuters plus of course they have agreements with all the outlets through people like Murdoch. This is why the press never talk about it, ever. In any serious way. Sometimes they ridicule it to remind everyone how very preposterous the mere idea would be and were one even to think it for a second, why one is by definition completely round the twist.

    So I truly don’t know PIA but if you really think the richest man on Earth only has 160 odd billion, then you don’t understand actual history, which is not theory but simple fact, whether or not it contradicts local wisdom as commonly understood. Facts are facts, in other words.

    Edit: Please don’t misunderstand though I’m not saying whether or not it exists and I’m not saying if it did, then whose could it be. It could, for example, equally be The Crown Holdings, who knows. If it existed, which it may or may not.

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  31. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Would you buy a used car from this man ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/9058686/Megaupload-Kim-Dotcom-describes-his-strange-prison-encounters-in-New-Zealand-court.html

    Someone stood on his hand too.

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  32. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    Because a church doesn’t corrupt family values whereas a brothel does wat.

    Apparently freedom isn’t a “family value.” Who knew.

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  33. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    We should agree to release Kim Dotcom if he hacks into that bank account for us.

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  34. cha (3,852 comments) says:

    Anonymous joined the FBI – Scotland Yard conference call coordinating their strategy against Anonymous. The recording is on YouTube with some names bleeped.

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  35. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Griff – none of what I’ve posted disagrees with the consensus that you cherish. What is questionable (I’ll repeat this again for you) is what degree anthropogenic contributions make to climate, and to what degree we can expect the climate to change.
    Your beloved consensus doesn’t quantify this at all. You are the one who is a denier. Scientists outside the hockey team are just as capable and by approaching the science from a skeptical point of view (even though it threatens their careers and funding) they are helping to overcome confirmation biases.

    Without skeptics there would probably by now be a global carbon trading market valued in the trillions of dollars, run by the big financial institutions like Goldman Sachs. As we all know, that would lead to a few people in the clique pocketing billions of dollars while not actually reducing global emissions by one gram of CO2.

    Stop being a denier – the science isn’t settled. Australia’s new carbon tax is predicated on a predicted 5.1 deg C rise per doubling of CO2 equivalent:

    The estimate is that of Professor Ross Garnaut, the Australian Government’s economic adviser on climate questions. It is on that figure that his economic analysis – accepted by the Australian Government – centres.

    The Australian carbon tax won’t reduce global emissions – instead Australians will 1) pay billions of dollars annually for emissions credits from other countries and 2) see much of their manufacturing industry move offshore.
    In short, based on spurious ‘science’, Australia are handicapping themselves.
    NZ’s ETS is by comparison mild, but it is still an economic handicap based on poor science.

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  36. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    I forgot to add Griff- you’re not mentioning every argument…

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  37. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    So what is your objection to what he had to say Bereal?

    Lets face it you just don’t like anyone with cash being the communist troll you are.

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  38. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    reid you don’t seem to grasp the astronomical enormity of about thirty five orders of magnitude. Not 35 *times* the total wealth of the earth ( which would be ludicrous enough), but 35 ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE. A sane man cannot possibly believe that there exists a bank account that would let every person on earth buy the entire earth and everything on it trillions of times over. Everyone on earth could buy a galaxy full of planets worth as much as the earth. With that bank account, you could probably buy the universe.

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  39. Scott Chris (5,967 comments) says:

    Wat Dabney says:- “Europe’s cold spell: Death toll rises to 220 and no end in sight”

    So? I trump your “annual frozen homeless persons’ body count”, and raise you “a second highest ever”

    >>”People celebrating the New Year will enjoy higher temperatures than Morocco and Madrid as Britain’s second warmest winter on record ends on a high.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/weather/8984677/New-Years-Eve-weather-mild-weekend-after-second-warmest-year-on-record.html

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  40. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    The French Commercial Court has decided that Google Maps offers “unfair competition” to a French cartography firm called Bottin Cartographes, and is fining Google US$600,000 for daring to offer Google Maps for free.

    What has Google Maps done wrong? Has it stolen any intellectual property? No. What it is offering is the product of its own efforts, purchased, produced and accumulated through voluntary interaction.

    Is it harming consumers? No. Quite the opposite, they are getting a useful resource for free. They are benefiting from a large company offering a service they need not pay for.

    http://libertyscott.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/french-court-punishes-google-maps-for.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+LibertyScott+%28Liberty+Scott%29

    so the logic of the French. Don’t visit France and expect to have your Google Maps free. Ehhh?

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  41. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Apparently freedom isn’t a “family value.” Who knew.

    Crikey wat don’t you understand anything about how social engineering operates?

    By allowing children to become acquainted with the reality of brothels as a simple fact of suburban life one puts another notch into the grinding wheel which is slowly generation by generation changing the view society used to have of the family unit into one where the family doesn’t matter for relationships are always casual and children become just a byproduct of a passing relationship which happened years ago.

    In case you hadn’t noticed this profound change of attitude makes our lifetime different from those of almost every other human that has ever lived, who all, until recently agreed, that in every society and village and city the “normal” life was a life partner and children and this repeated since history began until recently.

    Freedom is used to disguise the plot and the gullible lap it up, just as they do other feminist lies which today, suck more and more young women everyday into the total lie that if they don’t think and act like a man and sleep around and drink hard and don’t worry about marriage and family, then they are oppressed, because all men simply want to oppress you and tie your hands to the kitchen, at the end of the day and you’re a fool if you want that for your life. These next few generations will complete the plot, which is to withdraw the family unit from being a support base for the individual for imagine, the new family normal will become one where your own dad left long ago, your sister had a different dad and your brother a different one again. Your mum works all the time because she has to get ahead, get that next promotion. So if you actually had a childhood like that how would you be, when your turn came to reproduce?

    Sure today there are lots of families in fact this is the norm. But look at the attitude in the young ones today and that’s what will become in twenty years and that’s where the brothel policy and all the others are aimed at. Not at today, but way down the track.

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  42. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Nice scotty, applaud the deaths of hundreds because they are ‘homeless’.
    How many people died from heat during that second warmest winter on record? The reality is more likely to be that thousands of people avoided death due to a milder winter.

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  43. Other_Andy (2,512 comments) says:

    Would love to argue the facts Griff, as soon as you present some.

    Maybe you didn’t get the latest memo?
    Global Warming is out and so is Climate Change.
    Probably because almost everybody agrees that the world has been warming for the last few hundred years and because everybody agrees that the climate has been changing since Earth was formed.
    Real data (measurements in the field) show there hasn’t been a discernable change in the rate of global warming and the link between the recent rise of CO2 and global temperatures is becoming indefensible.
    This is why they have changed the name of the club.
    While some of the old more extremist AGW’rs have joined the CAGW club (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming), the majority have now joined the ACD (Anthropogenic Climate Disruption) club.
    Now, believe me, his is the best of both worlds.
    You can still blame humans and evil hydrocarbons.
    And on top of that, you can now blame them for ANY change in the climate.
    Droughts = climate disruption
    Floods = climate disruption
    Record highs = climate disruption
    Record lows = climate disruption
    Sea level rise = climate disruption
    Sea level drop = climate disruption
    Receding ice = climate disruption
    Expanding ice = climate disruption
    Etc. etc……
    All of it caused by Anthropogenic Climate Disruption.
    So if you join the ACD club you can claim all those cold records I mentioned before on humans and CO2.
    I thought you would be chuffed.
    All that personal abuse from you after I thought I did you a favour.
    So disappointed that you couldn’t use the facts I mentioned earlier to your advantage.
    It makes me very sad.

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  44. Scott Chris (5,967 comments) says:

    RightNow, if you want to argue about Monckton’s assertions, why not condense them down to your understanding of the salient points and we can go from there. But I will address Monckton’s raising of the IPCC’s statement that:

    >>”the climate is chaotic…it is not predictable in the long-term”

    This is true when long term refers to many millions of years. We don’t know how long humans will be around, or when the next period of sustained vulcanism will occur, because the factors that lead to these events are subject to chaotic initial conditions.

    But I disagree with the IPCC statement anyway, because they missed “Yet” off the end.

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  45. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    So by address you meant agree with based on our current understanding. Good to know.

    I suspect you don’t disagree with anything Monckton said. Same as Griff if he actually took time to read and understand it.

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  46. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    A brain teaser: how would you rid the world’s population of the frail and vulnerable without using weapons and without anyone suspecting that was what you were trying to do?

    Answer: pretend the world was headed for catastrophic warming so that everyone would be unprepared for catastrophic cooling.

    Good one eh? Of course that’s not really happening. It’s a hypothetical scenario for the purposes of a brain teaser.

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  47. Other_Andy (2,512 comments) says:

    Amazonian Rainforest Fungus Eats Polyurethane, Potentially Solving a Big Landfill Problem

    To the multitude of arguments for protecting rainforest biodiversity, here’s a new addition: An Amazonian fungus could eat our most durable landfill waste. A group of students from Yale found the fungus during an expedition to Ecuador and learned it breaks down polyurethane.

    http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-02/rainforest-fungus-eats-plastic-potentially-solving-landfill-problems

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  48. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    RightNow (3,806) Says:
    February 4th, 2012 at 12:09 pm
    I forgot to add Griff- you’re not mentioning every argument…

    lack of comprehension again
    tut tut wish you would learn

    last line on my 11:16 am
    …of course, don’t mention every argument or else you’ll look stupid.

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  49. Scott Chris (5,967 comments) says:

    Rightnow says:- “So by address you meant agree with based on our current understanding.”

    Only if “long term” refers to many millions of years. But I don’t know what point Monckton is trying to make.

    Climate scientists are concerned with what will happen in the next 10 to 1000 years, and barring unpredictable events such as huge volcanic eruptions, the medium term forcing effect of GHGs on global climate IS predictable.

    So what’s his point?

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  50. fatnuts (164 comments) says:

    Griff, CERN have demonstrated that current CO2 centric climate models are flawed.

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  51. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Fascinating day today.

    For the last week the Met service has been predicting fine weather friday/sat/sunday/monday, for Wellington. My Dick Smith gadget ($129) has been telling me rain today and clearing tomorrow.

    When I got up this morning it was drizzle. When I checked the met service lo and behold its changed to rain for today but fine tomorrow!

    This ain’t the first time I might add! :)

    I suggest we sack the met service and provide a Dick Smith weatherometer to everyone.

    Be much cheaper and far more reliable! :) :)

    As for fucking climate scientists. Just transfer their funding to something more useful like say “better ways of burning lignite”
    or “how to dispose of highly active radionuclides in an environmentally responsible manner”! :)

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  52. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Viking2 @ 12.13

    Wrong answer again, you just can’t get anything right can you?

    Of course the correct answer was, you can’t buy a used car from him because he doesn’t have
    any cars at all now.

    Your mate Dotcom says all he wants to do is fight these charges on a level playing field.
    In that case, if he is not a bullshit artist we will see him not fight extradition and go to the US
    to do just that.

    Why do you hate the police so badly Viking2 ?

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  53. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    I got stopped and breathalysed on the bloody Naenae overbridge at lunchtime on Thursday!

    I too hate the pigs now! :)

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  54. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    scott – what’s your point? You said “I disagree with the IPCC statement anyway, because they missed “Yet” off the end.” which I inferred meant “based on our current understanding”. I may have inferred wrong, tell me if I have.

    But if you really think that climate scientists are currently able to model projections with any great degree of predictive skill then I completely disagree.

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  55. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Johnboy – were you over the limit?

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  56. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Griff, sometimes you’re not very good at spotting the wind-up are you?

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  57. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    See the media is as predictable as ever by doing its level best to breathlessly talk up confrontation on Monday in the hope the pictures this year will be full of angry confrontation.

    It’s almost comedic, their pathetic efforts to make news, instead of report it, just like this particular hysterical headline. I just wish people would see straight through the idiots and not buy their product accordingly so the idiots wouldn’t do it anymore but some hope of that ever happening, ever.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6366936/Waitangi-emotions-running-high-Harawira

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  58. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    No. The KFC I was getting for lunch had no vinegar on the chips as usual!

    Would have been a different story and possibly a court case (would have contacted Lord Birkenhead and hoped he responded :) ) if I had gone to the Chinese chippie instead where vinegar is mandatory.

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  59. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    ah cern

    http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1349100/

    Milankovic climate oscillations help define climate sensitivity and assess potential human-made climate effects. We conclude that Earth in the warmest interglacial periods was less than 1{\deg}C warmer than in the Holocene. Goals to limit human-made warming to 2{\deg}C and CO2 to 450 ppm are not sufficient — they are prescriptions for disaster. Polar warmth in prior interglacials and the Pliocene does not imply that a significant cushion remains between today’s climate and dangerous warming, but rather that Earth today is poised to experience strong amplifying polar feedbacks in response to moderate additional warming. Deglaciation, disintegration of ice sheets, is nonlinear, spurred by amplifying feedbacks. If warming reaches a level that forces deglaciation, the rate of sea level rise will depend on the doubling time for ice sheet mass loss. Satellite gravity data, though too brief to be conclusive, are consistent with a doubling time of 10 years or less, implying the possibility of multi-meter sea level rise this century. The emerging shift to accelerating ice sheet mass loss supports our conclusion that Earth’s temperature has returned to at least the Holocene maximum. Rapid reduction of fossil fuel emissions is required for humanity to succeed in preserving a planet resembling the one on which civilization developed.

    http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1349225/
    Improving observations of ocean temperature confirm that Earth is absorbing more energy from the sun than it is radiating to space as heat, even during the recent solar minimum. The inferred planetary energy imbalance, 0.59 \pm 0.15 W/m2 during the 6-year period 2005-2010, provides fundamental verification of the dominant role of the human-made greenhouse effect in driving global climate change. Observed surface temperature change and ocean heat gain constrain the net climate forcing and ocean mixing rates. We conclude that most climate models mix heat too efficiently into the deep ocean and as a result underestimate the negative forcing by human-made aerosols. Aerosol climate forcing today is inferred to be -1.6 \pm 0.3 W/m2, implying substantial aerosol indirect climate forcing via cloud changes. Continued failure to quantify the specific origins of this large forcing is untenable, as knowledge of changing aerosol effects is needed to understand future climate change. A recent decrease in ocean heat uptake was caused by a delayed rebound effect from Mount Pinatubo aerosols and a deep prolonged solar minimum. Observed sea level rise during the Argo float era can readily be accounted for by thermal expansion of the ocean and ice melt, but the ascendency of ice melt leads us to anticipate a near-term acceleration in the rate of sea level rise.

    Oh look conclusions of modern papers written by the papers author not paraphrased by the usual
    lairs lobbyists loopys and lawyers
    don t forget the sheep!

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  60. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    That’s a fine Kiwifeather cloak Sir Jerrycan is wearing reid. Wonder how they fitted the ceramic armour so neatly.

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  61. fatnuts (164 comments) says:

    Griff, both those articles predate the CLOUD findings.

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  62. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Good work Griff. Far to complex for a silly old prick like me.

    I’ll keep an eye on the sheep and get them to help me with the more complex readouts the Dick Smith Wetherometer gives me. :)

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  63. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    The best action the dignitaries could make is to ignore the “festivities” at Waitangi completely. If JK & Sir Jerry found a pressing need to stay home & cut their toenails or something the protesters would be starved of the oxygen they seek.

    It’s not as if there’s a vote in it either way for National…..just the guarantee of ritual humiliation at the hands of the Harawiras & their pathetic ilk.

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  64. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    This in interesting

    http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/02/02/russian-scientists-lost-in-frozen-land-lost/

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  65. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    No this makes me laugh
    its all good fun
    just because I do not use emoticons doesn’t mean im am not joking at times
    to really call any of us stupid or sheep does us all a disservice if we were really sheep we would not be able to disagree
    Hence this blog would look like one hundred spuds :razz:

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  66. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Griff – “conclusions of modern papers written by the papers author” James Hansen, who received over a million dollars in income, outside of his NASA job, and failed to report them on his SF278 as required by law. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/18/dr-james-hansens-growing-financial-scandal-now-over-a-million-dollars-of-outside-income/

    No hint of double standards eh Griff?

    PS- I’m not a fan of emoticons, but I’m pretty sure spud is Phil Goff.

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  67. cha (3,852 comments) says:

    A song from Whangavagas local Johnboy.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/paulbrasell71?feature=watch

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  68. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    I like spuds with my roast lamb Griff. :) :) :) :) :) :)

    Sometimes the roast spuds aint so good but I haven’t worked out the emoticon for those yet.

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  69. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    :roll:

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  70. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    reid,

    Crikey wat don’t you understand anything about how social engineering operates?

    I do, and apparently you don’t.

    “Social engineering” is what you what you are advocating, by limiting people’s freedom to those choices which you happen to approve of.

    Please stop it.

    Scott Chris,

    Your supposed “trump” doesn’t mention how many people were killed by the warmth, as opposed to the hundreds killed by cold.

    That would because the number is a big, fat ‘zero’. And that’s the point: a warmer planet would be a more benign place; so it’s a shame our CO2 emissions have negligible influence.

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  71. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Its all true cha. :)

    Wimmin never understand like sheep do!

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  72. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    from
    Cactus Kate
    How To Beat I-Tunes In New Zealand
    http://asianinvasion2006.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/how-to-beat-i-tunes-in-new-zealand.html

    take that USA

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  73. cha (3,852 comments) says:

    Well that’s all a bit ‘Alien v Predator’ Reid with the president of Iceland Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson in in Antarctica with Al Gore, James Cameron as well as Richard Branson and Ted Turner.

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  74. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Iceburg size of NY about to break off Antartica.

    Amazing space photo of 19 mile crack

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2094849/The-worlds-biggest-iceberg-19-mile-crack-continues-break-away-Antarctica.html

    “Social engineering” is what you what you are advocating, by limiting people’s freedom to those choices which you happen to approve of.

    Please stop it.

    er..

    Actually, being a mine canary involves calling alarm to a reality, not advocating for it wat. Crikey what the hell is the matter with you? Are you Chinese and you just don’t understand English nuance or something?

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  75. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    Let’s revert to what grandfathers did about climate change.

    When I was a kid in the mid 1940′s, I used to come to my grandad’s place on the beachfront at Otumoetai and play in the sand there.
    My grandson now comes to my place at Matua, and we go down to the beach where I used to play on the sand, and my grandson plays at the same place on the sand. The water level is the same as it was around 60 odd years ago. I thought it was supposed to be half a metre or so higher now?
    When I was a kid, my other gradfather had a batch at Little Waihi estuary/Bledisloe Park just around from Maketu. We used to set nets a catch flounder in the lagoon – my grandad would shoot at shags raiding his flounder net. At low tide, the lagoon would empty out, and we would go to catch crabs and cockabullies and shrimps etc in the little pools left. When the tide was in, we would play with our toy boats and on the sand.
    My older brother goes camping dowm at Bledisloe Park. He takes his grankids down and they catch flounder in the lagoon when the tides in and play on the sand in the lagoon. When the tides out they catch crabs and cockabullies and shrimps in the little pools.
    Only difference – there are more people go there now, so the flounder aren’t quite so numerous and not so big – but plenty for all if we consider the other bloke – the water is a bit cooler too than what i remember :-)
    Dunno what that’s got to do about Climate Change, but the water level is the same.
    CO2 makes plants grow better, so bring on the CO 2.
    Its funny, but this summer is quite cool – like last summer. Bring back the summer of 1998 – or 1989 – or 1973 – or 1965 – or 1957 all were much warmer summers than we have had recently.

    AGW is total bullshit – but its good for a laugh and the raising of taxes, and the gullible swallow it.

    Cheers Griff and Scott :-)

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  76. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Anyway. What’s all youse Honkies going to do for Fitangy Day eh?

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  77. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Hope you check the weather on a Dick Smith wetherometer Don! :)

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  78. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    Better still Johnboy.
    My grandad had one of those little plaster statues that changed from pink to blue, depending on whether it was going to be wet or fine.
    I wish he had bequeathed it to me – more accurate than the dickheads we have predicting weather now. :-)

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  79. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    REid:By allowing children to become acquainted with the reality of brothels as a simple fact of suburban life one puts another notch into the grinding wheel which is slowly generation by generation changing the view society used to have of the family unit into one where the family doesn’t matter for relationships are always casual and children become just a byproduct of a passing relationship which happened years ago.

    In case you hadn’t noticed this profound change of attitude makes our lifetime different from those of almost every other human that has ever lived, who all, until recently agreed, that in every society and village and city the “normal” life was a life partner and children and this repeated since history began until recently.

    Not true. There have been, and still are, societies that don’t subscribe to your notions of family unit and life partners.

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  80. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Shit. I’ve been over to the Stranded and I’m shattered.

    Spuds gone! :) :)

    But a new commenter called “eljaydee” is there!

    Explanations are required!! :)

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  81. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Come in rf? Where are you rf? :)

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  82. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Not true. There have been, and still are, societies that don’t subscribe to your notions of family unit and life partners.

    No they’re transient communes chiz. I’m talking real societies from cave days to a few generations ago. Every country, every race, all over. If you can name a whole civilisation that didn’t do that as it developed over time then go ahead.

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  83. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    Isotopes hint at North Korean nuclear test

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  84. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Mind blowing speech by Robert Welch in 1958 predicting Insiders plans to destroy America

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  85. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    The only society that endures is a society where the parents of the children (one each of male and female) are committed to each other for life and also committed for life to the nurturing of their children.

    Any other arrangement is just fashionable bullshit that suits the particular trend at the time but has no lasting merit whatsoever.

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  86. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    reid must take away our freedoms in order to save us.

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  87. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    Civilian UAVs to fill Us skies if US law changes

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  88. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    reid must take away our freedoms in order to save us.

    wat if I was allowed to I’d sure as hell take away your freedom not because I don’t like you for I do but because you haven’t made sense all day so the greater good equation kicks in and guess what, it is about saving us but it’s not about our freedoms, it’s about yours. So in a way, we don’t lose anything even though you do.

    OTOH we possibli gain something – who knows, but no loss, that’s a given.

    I know this may seem unfair but there we are wat. You asked the question, didn’t you and that’s what I would do. Perhaps if you hadn’t said anything nothing would have happened.

    chiz aposite to your above:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/feb/02/surveillance-drone-industy-pr-effort

    Perhaps if the drone industry made a few bumblebee like prototypes and showed those a lot like lovable toys the public would finally understand how fluffy they really all are.

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  89. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    More on drones: the latest US one –
    http://www.opednews.com/populum/linkframe.php?linkid=144738

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  90. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Shit! I hope Superintendent Paula Rose doesn’t deploy any over the Naenae overbridge. :)

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  91. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    reid,

    wat if I was allowed to I’d sure as hell take away your freedom not because I don’t like you for I do but because you haven’t made sense all day so the greater good equation kicks in and guess what, it is about saving us but it’s not about our freedoms, it’s about yours. So in a way, we don’t lose anything even though you do.

    There is a long and nauseating history of those who would take away our freedoms for their subjective “greater good.” It’s why you can’t buy a good bagel in Berlin to this day.

    Try and get this through your head: people don’t have to justify their life and their choices to you or to your imaginary pixie.

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  92. cha (3,852 comments) says:

    LoL Reid, the JBS, really?.

    And drones are in use now with plans afoot to weaponise them.

    And quadrocopters.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W18Z3UnnS_0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r281vgfotg

    At the Rip Curl Pro 2011 at Bells beach.

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  93. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Oh yeah cha. Huge industry. No more planes, the F-22 and EuroFighter are the last piloted fighters.

    It’s an interesting new field. I wonder how they do the command and control systems, with lasers or radio or something else if so what?

    Surely that’s their weakness and it would be a very interesting study wouldn’t it to find the latest in that area for they obviously have confidence in them now else they wouldn’t be building so many.

    Try and get this through your head: people don’t have to justify their life and their choices to you or to your imaginary pixie.

    wat I’ve not been saying that. If you think I have then try a re-read starting from this morning…

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  94. Yvette (2,743 comments) says:

    Pour votre plaisir, Johnboy – http://vimeo.com/23962790 – dans vos rêves

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  95. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    reid,

    wat I’ve not been saying that. If you think I have then try a re-read from this morning…

    What, this bit?:

    wat if I was allowed to I’d sure as hell take away your freedom not because I don’t like you for I do but because you haven’t made sense all day so the greater good equation kicks in and guess what, it is about saving us but it’s not about our freedoms.

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  96. Scott Chris (5,967 comments) says:

    Berkeley Scientists Decode Brain Waves. Can See Words In Your Head:

    http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/01/31/scientists-decode-brain-waves-to-eavesdrop-on-what-we-hear/
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Speaking of weaponized autonomous drones reminds me of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlS_Rnb5WM4

    Skynet Symphonic (Terminator 2 Remix) – Very cool if you don’t mind techno music.

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  97. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    wat you’re just sensitive about that since it was directed at you specifically. You said I was making a general comment toward everyone.

    A comment directed specifically at you doesn’t cut it. Is why I took pains to phrase that comment as I did.

    Sorry about that. (Well, not really…)

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  98. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    reid,

    So you’d take away everyone’s freedom in pursuit of your greater good.

    Well that’s okay then.

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  99. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    No I’d only take yours away wat. What about that don’t you understand. Crikey.

    But only till you stop spouting crap. That’s the humane part.

    BTW, I don’t mean any of this wat but you keep biting so what the hell.

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  100. Don the Kiwi (1,646 comments) says:

    Freedom of itself, requires limitations wat.
    If the greater good requires your freedoms to be curtailed because of your mis-application of your freedoms, then it would happen.

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  101. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Yvette mon amour. Les mathématiques n’ont jamais été mon strongpoint. :)

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  102. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    “Berkeley Scientists Decode Brain Waves. Can See Words In Your Head:”

    Never let them decode yours Scotty.

    Flatlines are really boring. :)

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  103. Manolo (13,516 comments) says:

    The greedy racists never miss an opportunity to ask for special treatment: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/17027756-Governor-General-questioned

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  104. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Calm down Manolo. The only chap I know who took then seriously made hats out of them. :)

    http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=coonskin+cap&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=W8EsT5bVIoOTiQepgvXWDg&ved=0CGQQsAQ&biw=1038&bih=828

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  105. wat dabney (3,721 comments) says:

    reid,

    No I’d only take yours away wat. What about that don’t you understand. Crikey.

    Because I don’t think it’s true. I’m flattered, but what is it that is so unique about me that you’d obliterate at the point a gun at? Why would your violence stop there?

    Don,

    Freedom of itself, requires limitations wat. If the greater good requires your freedoms to be curtailed because of your mis-application of your freedoms, then it would happen.

    Ah, the “greater good.” And who decides what that is, exactly? An electoral majority?

    And suppose you find yourself in a minority?

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  106. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Into games johnboy
    http://mygamesoft.blogspot.co.nz/2010/12/sven.html

    :shock:

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  107. Other_Andy (2,512 comments) says:

    Whoops!

    The US Energy Information Administration’s (EIA) predicted carbon emissions levels wrong by 43 percent.

    Preliminary reports from the US Energy Information Administration’s “Annual Energy Outlook” suggest that any carbon crisis may not be quite as imminent as thought.
    Not so long ago, the EIA predicted carbon emissions levels would rise by 37 percent between 2005 and 2035.
    The EIA now thinks that global CO2 emissions in 2025 will be 6 percent lower than they were in 2005.

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/02/03/global-warming-engine-unexpectedly-slows/

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  108. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Did you see the name suppression bollocks around this shit for brains?

    http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/02/new-zealand-pitcairn-of-pacific-part-2.html

    What’s the legal mores around this where the high court suppresses but the relevant tribunal doesn’t see fit, or is legally entitled to lift the suppression?

    you’ll be sucking back a lot more than you intended visiting the wrong dentist in Christchurch.

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  109. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Followed the Sven link didn’t I? Remind me of the old joke. Wheres the best place to fuck a sheep?

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  110. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    A man and his dog are shipwrecked on a deserted island. After a few days he decides to reconnoiter the island. He discovers that the only other inhabitants are sheep. He recalls how his farm buddies would brag how they would screw sheep for kicks and he says to himself: ‘I’ll never be that desperate.’

    Sooooo, a few days later he can’t get those sheep out of his mind, and soon he’s sneaking up on the flock. Just as he is about to pounce on a really cute one, the dog grabs his leg and won’t let go. He snaps to, and thanks the dog for keeping him from making a fool of himself. This same scene happens every night for a month and the guy is really getting pissed at the dog.

    Suddenly one day, the man spies a liferaft bobbing in the surf. In the raft is a beautiful young girl, half dead but alive. He takes her back to his hut revives her and nurses her to health. After a few days the girl is feeling fine, and that evening a rush of gratitude sweeps over her….

    She confronts the man: ‘I owe you my life. I’m yours forever. I’ll do anything you want’

    ‘Anything?’

    ‘Anything!!’

    ‘OK, hold that dog for ten minutes!!!’

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  111. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    God it’s not to hard to wind all you twits up is it?

    Keep the sheep coming!!! :)

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  112. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    This is a repeat but I don’t think Monique will have read it:

    A Love Story
    They met in a secluded field, the sun nearly kissing the evening horizon.The warm breeze was full of that earthy musky scent that only those fortunate enough to live outside the urban rat race know, and the quiet whispering of leaves in the Weeping Willow overhead added the final touch to the most romantic scene. They lay there, both naked. He knew he had to have her and have her now.

    Without a word being spoken, he managed to move himself to a position of dominance. He could feel instantly that this is what she had been waiting for as she frantically thrust her pelvis at his approaching organ. He moved slowly at first, inch by inch, until he was fully inside her. Then as tension rose, they began the ultimate in sex.

    Although inexperienced, she approached every change of position with enthusiasm, moaning with despair every time he withdrew to prevent himself from ending it all too soon. As sexual tension heightened towards the inevitable mind-blowing climax, it was all he could do to hold out until the moment they had been both waiting for was upon them. As it did, they rolled together in the now damp grass. As the last deep orange glow of the long setting sun melted into the darkness of approaching night, as they lay there still entwined in an amorous embrace, he kissed her long and lovingly and whispered how good she had been. She tenderly and sensuously licked his inner ear and whispered, “Baaa”, then re-joined the flock.

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  113. Other_Andy (2,512 comments) says:

    Next arrival

    ‘Tremain’ as posted on Whaleoil.
    Please keep platform clear for those disembarking from gravy trains.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Tremain-at-his-best-001.jpg

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  114. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    Humpty Dumpty sat on his bed
    As little Bo Beep was giving him head
    Just as he came she began to weep
    She could tell by the taste he’d been shagging her sheep!!

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  115. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    Freedom of itself, requires limitations wat.
    If the greater good requires your freedoms to be curtailed because of your mis-application of your freedoms, then it would happen.

    Ah that’s the Catholic Version.

    The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance.
    And as wat points out who decides the greater good?

    Your choice may not necessarily be mine.
    Alomost vertainly wouldn’t be. Mine wouldn’t interfere with you and you freedoms.

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  116. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    lol: “Just as he is about to pounce on a really cute one” . Ha ha had missed that next one too.

    I just sent my husband the link, he bemusedly said: why did you send me a link to a sheep fucker game? :)

    Courtesy of my brother in Inglewood: A Up against a cliff because the sheep will bump backwards harder.

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  117. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    V2 has given us the acid test for freedom. If my freedom to do as I wish doesn’t infringe on your freedom to do the same then get the Hell out of my life.

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  118. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    A farmer is sitting in the neighborhood bar slowly getting drunk. A man comes in and asks the farmer, “Hey, why are you sitting here on this beautiful day getting drunk?” The farmer says, “Some things you just can’t explain.” “So what happened that is so horrible?” the man asked. The farmer then decides to try an answer, “Well if you must know, today I was sitting by my cow milking her. Just as I got the bucket about full, she took her left leg and kicked it over.” “That’s not so bad, what’s the big deal?” The farmer says, “Some things you just can’t explain.” “So what happened?” the man asked again. The farmer relenting, continued, “I took her left leg and tied it to the post on the left with some rope. Then I sat down and continued to milk her. Just as I got the bucket about full she took her right leg and kicked it over.” “Again?” The farmer says, “Some things you just can’t explain.” “So, what did you do then?” the man asked, intrigued. “I took her right leg and tied it to the post on the right. I sat back down and continued to milk her, and just as I got the bucket just about full, the stupid cow knocked over the bucket with her tail.” “Wow, you must have been pretty upset! but that’s no reason to just sit here getting all depressed.” The farmer says, “Some things you just can’t explain.” “So then what else did you do?” the man asked again. “Well I didn’t have any more rope, so I took off my belt and tied her tail to the rafter. That’s when my pants fell down and my wife walked in.”

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  119. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    watch out naaska. befuckedreal will be along to advise us of his wisdom ably supported by that other fountain of all knowledge scotty.

    Call the spaceship and have them beaned up please.

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  120. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    Another repeat but put up before Monique started commenting here:

    Man is being prosecuted in Chester Crown Court for unnatural acts with a sheep. Prosecuting counsel wants to get away for an early bath so he says to the defence barrister that a guilty plea from the defendant for attempting the said act would be acceptable to the Crown and the defendant would probably get away with a modest fine.

    Defence barrister refuses to accept the offer. ‘Why not?’ asks the prosecutor.

    ‘Well, if my client pleads guilty to attempt he will never be able to show his face in the pub again.’

    Prosecuting counsel looks puzzled

    ‘Just imagine’, says defence counsel, ‘the things people would say ….’

    Prosecuting counsel looks even more puzzled

    ‘….. here comes Dai – can’t even fuck a sheep’

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  121. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10783378

    This case is turning into the ultimate circus.

    The really ludicrous aspect of this decision is the mistrust of both the police and technology to ensure Kim Dotcom remains in the country.

    I guess I didn’t realize just how inept our boys and girls in blue are.

    The judge may just as well have said, “You are a fat, immoral prick, I don’t like your face and the cops are hopeless so you are gonna stay locked up!”

    So there.

    This is purely a white collar crime case. The man is no danger to society and his business has been shut down.

    Injustice writ large.

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  122. Johnboy (15,564 comments) says:

    Slow down a bit with the sheep jokes guys.

    I have to write them all down and read them to my girls, they aren’t computer literate yet.

    I’m working on that but they keep shitting on the carpet.

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  123. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Right Now

    A doubling of CO2, certeris paribus, will result in a temperature increase of about 1.2C.

    I think we agree on that.

    The CO2 concentration has increased by by about 40% over preindustrial times, yet temperature has risen already by 0.8C.

    This should tell you something else is at work here.

    They are called positive feedbacks, which are overwhelming the small negative feedbacks such as cooling from clouds.

    Every time I go back to Jim Hansen’s 1988 scenario predictions I am stunned at the accuracy of what he then predicted.

    If your belief system prevents you from accepting plain science, then I can’t help you.

    Nobody can.

    And Christopher Monckton is deeply and unutterably corrupt. That’s just a statement of fact. He is bought and paid for by the vested interests intent on protecting the source of their wealth.

    He reminds me of the late Roger Kerr, who stuck me as having devoted his entire life to the disservice of his country.

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  124. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    oops editing beat me – struck, not stuck

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  125. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    This should tell you something else is at work here.

    It certainly does Luc. It tells me the giant ball of fire in the sky has been very busy indeed.

    Tell me Luc as someone whom I suspect probably really cares about plants, what happens to them if there’s no CO2?

    Do you think they’ll be ok or is it you and people like you who will end up as the biggest plant killers the planet has ever known. How does your vegetarian wing BTW feel about all of this? Are they happy?

    Or is it just you haven’t even told them you’ve decided to victimise plants by taking away their food source.

    I hope it’s not that Luc. I just really hope it’s not that.

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  126. Steve (4,522 comments) says:

    No text jokes but I do have this:

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  127. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Say, who else caught the sexiest girl to girl kiss ever at the Sevens, just before the Kiwis semi final?

    I just had to replay it a few times!

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  128. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    Something came up the other day that I reckon we should bring you up to speed on. We all know that there are some real kinky bastards living in the Hutt Valley who are yet to come out of the closet/shearing shed & a new establishment called “Renta Sheep” has opened up somewhere above Eastbourne. Unfortunately they have been neglectful in ovine health of some of the more attractive ewes.

    As fro Monday sheep heading back in our direction are swabbed & put in quarantine for a month before they are declared free of STDs.

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  129. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Now Reid, you know as well as I do that the output of the sun is very carefully and accurately measured.

    Why would you want to believe outright nonsense?

    Better still, point me to a peer reviewed study in one of the major journals that confirms your thesis.

    And please, not the Annals of a Prostitute’s Diary! (No offense to prostitutes, I just don’t turn to them for science)

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  130. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    CERN study Luc.

    Just google it.

    Crikey.

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  131. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen (3,322) Says:
    February 4th, 2012 at 8:20 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10783378

    This case is turning into the ultimate circus.

    The really ludicrous aspect of this decision is the mistrust of both the police and technology to ensure Kim Dotcom remains in the country.

    I guess I didn’t realize just how inept our boys and girls in blue are.

    The judge may just as well have said, “You are a fat, immoral prick, I don’t like your face and the cops are hopeless so you are gonna stay locked up!”

    So there.

    This is purely a white collar crime case. The man is no danger to society and his business has been shut down.

    Injustice writ large.

    Welcome to real world luc. One small step for man, one big step for mankind.

    Worst part is that the Judge appears to be asleep at his bench and Davidson should be replaced with ahungry bird like the one who got Zaoi out.
    Davidson is also asleep at the wheel.
    To old, lazy and wrapped in the system Give me a pasionate advocate anyday.

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  132. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Ah, cosmic rays.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/09/cosmic-rays-and-clouds-potential-mechanisms/

    However, it is clear that substantially more work needs to be done before we adequately understand these physical connections, and that no broad conclusions regarding the effect of cosmic rays on clouds and climate can (or should) be drawn from the first round of CLOUD results. Finally, there has been no significant trend in the cosmic ray flux over the 50 years, so while we cannot rule out cosmic-ray/cloud mechanisms being relevant for historical climate changes, they certainly have not been an important factor in recent climate change.

    Which part of “cosmic rays stable, temperatures still rising” do you have trouble grasping?

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  133. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Time for a wet T-shirt competition at the Sevens?

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  134. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    Luc

    Shisssh! You’ll wake the Xtians.

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  135. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    God forbid!

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  136. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Luc, which part of “bias” don’t you understand?

    Bias BTW was one of the seven sages of Greece. He said: all men are bad. Isn’t that interesting.

    If you go to one of your soulmate’s sites in other words, to discover a reference, why of course you’ll find a spun article. Der.

    But if you recognise your bias and seek truth regardless, you’ll look for your info elsewhere, but sadly you didn’t Luc. What a big silly you are. Whose a big silly then?

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  137. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Luc, there does indeed seem to be a ‘consensus’ that 1.2 deg C is around the ballpark for a doubling of CO2 – I think the latest IPCC estimate was actually about 1.5.
    The feedbacks are posited to be in the magnitude of 3x. Observations would indicate less than 1x over the last 15 years – depends on who you believe though.

    What I found interesting is the cost of doing nothing vs the cost of action. Estimates are $US170 trillion to mitigate 1 deg C of warming.

    WRT Hansen’s 1988 predictions (projections) we’re remarkably close to scenario C don’t you think?

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  138. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    Go have a look at the video here of how cold it is in europe.

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/more-than-220-dead-as-europe-freezes-20120204-1qyg6.html
    More than 220 dead as Europe freezes
    February 4, 2012 – 5:21PM

    Snow covered palm trees at lake Lungolago in Lugano, Switzerland Click to play video
    Deadly cold snap grips Europe

    Freezing weather sweeps through Russia, Poland, Italy and France, causing disruption.

    Replay video

    223 people dead in last seven days
    1600 people treated for frostbite and hypothermia
    Venice canals freezing over
    Ancient monuments like the Colosseum closed

    Temperatures have plunged to new lows in Europe where a week-long cold snap has now claimed more than 220 lives as forecasters warned that the big freeze would tighten its grip over the weekend.

    A total of 223 people have died from the cold weather in the past seven days according to an AFP tally, with Ukraine suffering the heaviest toll.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/more-than-220-dead-as-europe-freezes-20120204-1qyg6.html#ixzz1lOpAf4gO

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  139. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    The judge may just as well have said, “You are a fat, immoral prick, I don’t like your face and the cops are hopeless so you are gonna stay locked up!”

    So there.

    I quite agree V2. Truth in sentencing. As a matter of fact it should be illegal for the judge not to say such things and also illegal for them not to be reported in every single newspaper every day no matter what.

    Maybe that’ll learn em.

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  140. Steve (4,522 comments) says:

    Luc, do you know what a cock is?
    Go away to the Strandard and Red Blert

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  141. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    BTW, this is a logical fallacy

    Statement 1: There has been no warming in the past decade.

    Statement 2: The past decade is the warmest on record when averaged, therefore Statement 1 is false.

    Let’s say I am 30 years old (I wish). In my 3rd decade I was on average taller than in my second decade (on average), am I therefore still growing?

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  142. jonno1 (80 comments) says:

    Luc 8.20pm. Totally agree with you (and that has to be a first!) re Dotcom. Certainly seems to be overkill for an alleged white-collar crime, at least as reported to date.

    And then you go and spoil it all at 8.32pm with the ad homs. OTOH, it occurs to me that you may simply be goading others into responding, as a kind of hobby. I hope so, anyway. But if not, another view on the influence of cosmic rays on the earth’s climate is contained in “The Chilling Stars” by Svensmark & Calder. Well worth a read, whether you choose to agree or not.

    PS The “t” is redundant nasska 9.10pm

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  143. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Hiter is informed MegaUpload was taken down by the Feds

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  144. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Hey Luc,

    if only we could have the sevens in the nude.
    Think of all the ‘eye candy”
    as you say,

    And,
    Viking2 shows again @ 8.50 how much he hates NZ Police and law and order.
    Why do you hate them so much Viking2 ?

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  145. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    jonno

    A moot point?

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xian

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xtian

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  146. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Out in the middle of darkest Africakura there was a White Missionary living with a tribe of maori natives.

    One day the big chief comes along and calls the Missionary into his hut, where he was sharpening his big axe. He explains to the white man that his daughter has just given birth to a white baby, and that since the missionary’s the only white man for tens of miles, the missionary will be the “main course” at dinner that night.

    “Now just hang on a minute, give me a chance to explain, chief,” says the Missionary. “You’re jumping to conclusions here. Let me tell you a story. See all those white sheep out in the field and how there’s one black one amongst them.”

    The Chief thinks for a moment. “OK!” says the Chief, “You say nothing, I say nothing.”

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  147. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    This is pretty cool

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/08/pouring-tea-in-a-plane-upside-down/

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  148. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xian
    3 Xian
    Pink. To be pink. To show ones pink bits. To exude olive oil. To be Fully sik mate!(greek) Menopausal Alcoholic mother.

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  149. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Maybe if the judge had given Dotcom a gobble in court
    then Viking 2 would be satisfied.

    Luc could watch, got his eye candy and it
    would have been, ‘all good.’

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  150. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Does D J Forbes really think God gives a flying fuck if he scores a try or not?

    Bereal, nude volleyball can be interesting.

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  151. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    Griff

    These Xtians/Xians are starting to look like a dodgy lot! Better to give anything that might involve prayer books & pink bits a miss.

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  152. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Nasska

    Menopausal Alcoholic mother.
    I had one
    Its now stored on the mantel piece in a small cardboard box
    Im afraid do you think I should scatter it now or wait for daylight

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  153. Viking2 (11,261 comments) says:

    reid (9,876) Says:
    February 4th, 2012 at 9:24 pm

    The judge may just as well have said, “You are a fat, immoral prick, I don’t like your face and the cops are hopeless so you are gonna stay locked up!”

    So there.

    Except I didn’t say that reid. Someone else did.

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  154. nasska (10,896 comments) says:

    Griff

    Things are always clearer in the light of sunrise.

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  155. jonno1 (80 comments) says:

    @nasska – hmm, point taken re optional spelling. Still, as an xian/xtian (or god-botherer – GOH’s preferred insult as I recall) I really don’t mind what you call me, just don’t call me Shirley.

    The pink bits are a bit of a worry though, so maybe I’ll concede your spelling after all.

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  156. fatnuts (164 comments) says:

    Luc, that you are quoting a blog called ‘realclimate’ goes to the strength of your argument.

    CERN on the other hand, despite being directed ‘not to interpret the results’ are quoted ‘Climate models will need to be substantially revised’. The work involves over 60 scientists in 17 countries.

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  157. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I love the comments section on Real Climate where real climate scientists debate and keep us all informed. One can come across little gems like this comment:

    …you are posting that despite the currently known forcings explaining the situation well, there must be some factor which negates all of that, and an additional unknown forcing or forcings that has exactly the same net effect. I (and IPCC) find that scenario very unlikely. – gavin]

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  158. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    fatnuts

    I’ll trump your 60 scientists from 17 countries with thousands of scientist from 194 countries that form the IPCC.

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  159. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Except I didn’t say that reid. Someone else did.

    That’s a shame V2 for I was praising the author, not condemning them.

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  160. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    And another:

    Interestingly in an article yesterday in the UK paper the Mail on Sunday, reported that the UK Met Office and the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia (headed by Professor Phil Jones) have issued a report based on the data from more than 30000 measuring stations that “confirms that the rising trend in world temperatures ended in 1997″. This is not really consistent with the position taken on this and other sites that global warming is still increasing. Are the Met Office and the CRU mistaken?

    [Response: Given a choice between the Met Office being mistaken and the Daily Mail mangling a story, I'd bet on the latter. There is plenty of short term variability in temperatures, and short term trends are not predictive of longer term ones. Thus claiming that the trend from 1997 or last Tuesday proves that global warming has stopped is simply not justifiable - Indeed, there is plenty of evidence that the long term trends have not changed much at all - see here for instance. I will have an update post on this later this week. - gavin]

    Comment by Ian — 30 Jan 2012 @ 4:30 AM

    What skeptics and deniers fail, either deliberately or incompetently, to take into account is that short term variations exist that can and do overwhelm the underlying trend. The last decade or so has seen some strong negative feedbacks at work, but the warming trend is still discernible and, what’s more, is demonstrated by weather extremes that can only be explained by the extent of the current warming.

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  161. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Luc, I’ll trump your thousands of scientists from 194 countries that form the IPCC with one scientist who is right.

    P.S refer to my 9.26 comment about the logical fallacy of saying it’s still warming

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  162. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    reid (9,877) Says:
    February 4th, 2012 at 10:23 pm
    Except I didn’t say that reid. Someone else did.

    That’s a shame V2 for I was praising the author, not condemning them.

    Cheers reid. I’ll take all I can get.

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  163. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    got a name for me, RN?

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  164. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Nobody knows yet Luc, do you want to nominate one?

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  165. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    I forget where I read it, but it seems scientists spent about 100 years bickering before continental drift became accepted over geological stasis. Sometimes it takes a while to figure things out. IMO climate science is still in it’s early stages.

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  166. fatnuts (164 comments) says:

    Luc, I’ll raise you an Einstien quote: “no amount of experimentation can prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong”

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  167. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    What alarmists and hysterialists fail, either deliberately or incompetently, to take into account is that AGW is a propaganda campaign as obvious as the blow up tanks and planes and fake radio traffic and Patton and his “5th Army” was prior to D-Day.

    Anyone who can’t immediately see this is clearly a great dumbo of the most flabbergasting proportion and well, crikey, words fail me.

    Cheers reid. I’ll take all I can get.

    You’re welcome Luc.

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  168. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your pink bits!
    I come to bury denial, not to praise it.
    The good that men do lives after them,
    The bad is oft interred with their bones;
    So let it be with denial

    climate science Act 3, scene 2, 74–77

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  169. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    WRT Hansen’s 1988 predictions (projections) we’re remarkably close to scenario C don’t you think?

    No.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/01/2010-updates-to-model-data-comparisons

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  170. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Griff does this mean you admit you were wrong and AGW isn’t real after all?

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  171. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    RightNow (3,818) Says:
    February 4th, 2012 at 10:29 pm
    Nobody knows yet Luc, do you want to nominate one?

    I see. So we have a currently unknown forcing(s) that will invalidate 160 years of solid science, yet to be discovered by a currently unknown scientist, and on this basis we will do nothing in response to warnings of clear and present and avoidabledanger to human civilization.

    And we are supposed to take this tripe seriously?

    It reminds me of when I challenged my former daughter-in-law on a point in the Bible and she told me it was a mistranslation. I said why don’t you guys go over the translation then? The answer was that the original is lost, to which I replied then how can you know it was a mistranslation?

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  172. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Interesting point, fatnuts.

    But science isn’t mathematics. There is certainty in the latter, but the former only delivers probabilities.

    Any theory can be disproved at anytime with new evidence.

    That doesn’t mean every theory is wrong.

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  173. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Steve (2,133) Says:
    February 4th, 2012 at 9:26 pm
    Luc, do you know what a cock is?
    Go away to the Strandard and Red Blert

    What this guy’s problem?

    My feelings are hurt!

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  174. Griff (6,989 comments) says:

    After all that effort to paraphrase will
    you are educated enough to spot the subtle change in the order of words

    This topic is taking up an extortionate amount of bandwidth
    it only ends up going round and round
    as you have previously stated there are far more immediate problems to confront than the climate over the next 90 years
    If I was a gambling man I would bet my home against your house that we will see more climate records broken in the next decade
    As to continuously posting links it gets a little tiring after you have seen the same old arguments from both sides at least six times And read numerous misrepresented papers. Only to have the lies resurface again and again

    boring

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  175. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Luc -of your thousands of scientists, which one is right?

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  176. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    avoidable danger to human civilization

    Luc in the real world “gween” technology is proceeding as fast as it can. (It’s mistaken in what its pursuing, but never mind that.)

    But who cares, unless you invade India and China and force them to avoid letting their citizens drive motor vehicles. For this Luc is the only repeat only solution if one thinks CO2 is a problem, climate-wise.

    So how come you lefties aren’t encouraging all the Western arms manufacturers and armies to beef themselves up for this necessary and vital and unavoidable conflict to save, nothing less, but the planet?

    I’m puzzled by the worldwide lack of reaction Luc. Don’t you guys care about the enviwonment, when push comes to shove?

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  177. Nookin (3,178 comments) says:

    “Does D J Forbes really think God gives a flying fuck if he scores a try or not?”

    He believes that his god does. Does anyone else’s view really matter?

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  178. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    RE: Hansen’s 1988 projections, the real climate article declares scenario B to be closest to observations by taking a linear trend (from 1984). Their graphic says
    Scenario B: 0.27 +/- 0.05 deg C/dec
    Gisstemp 0.19 +/- 0.05 deg C/dec
    Hadcrut3 0.18 +/- 0.05 deg C/dec

    It’s not a very close match in my opinion, but I challenge you to run it again with the latest data. It’s diverging.

    This is quick and dirty method, but will save you some work
    http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1984/to:2010/trend/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1984/to:2011/trend/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1984/to/trend

    P.S – don’t you think real climate are being a bit amateur using a linear trend for the comparison?

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  179. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    reid

    You are misrepresenting the situation. No-one expects India or China to stop progressing their economies.

    The West got rich on the back of massive emissions being dumped in the atmosphere and the only reason we are not in the midst of a disastrous situation right now is the ability of the ocean to absorb huge quantities of CO2.

    We need to use the wealth we have built up – regardless of short term cash flow crises – to develop non-carbon intensive energy and assist those developing countries to leapfrog the huge emissions curve we went through.

    As to why nothing is being done, the answer is quite obvious: the power currently resides in the vested interests, the 0.1%, if you like, who own the governments, businesses and armies.

    It’s easy to se the situation as hopeless, but history is replete with the hopeless becoming the new black. Just look at the Arab Spring. It’s got long way to go, but who would have thought it would even get this far 18 months ago?

    By the way, war is hugely carbon intensive.

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  180. Nookin (3,178 comments) says:

    The two most asinine comments/questions on the idiot box this week.

    John Campbell to Mrs Busch’s lawyer, with Mrs Busch right beside him, on National TV with 27.5 viewers (I only had half an eye on the box).
    “Looking at it dispassionately – who do you really think is better to look after the pussies – Craig Busch or his mummy?”

    FFS – what is he really going to say to that?

    Second really stupid comment — TJ after we won the 7s. “The key to winning the final really was beating England in the semi”.

    Like, we would have been in the final had we not won the semi?

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  181. fatnuts (164 comments) says:

    Luc, CERN have proven that current, CO2 models are wrong. That’s the science.

    Mathematics is a tool of science, used to construct the model. Just because a model correctly predicts an outcome for a period of time does not prove the model. However new data, such as CLOUD can disprove the model. As in this case. Failure to accept this is denial.

    Just like ‘C’ as the fundamental limit, one scientists proves one neutrino goes a bit faster that ‘C’, game over…

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  182. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    RN

    If you check a little further, temperatures have only recently diverged significantly from B. We know the true warming signal is currently suppressed by temporary weather events, for one, and aerosol pollution, for another. Variations come and go. that’s why climate science is done over over the long term.

    In the end, I guess it comes down to what you expect from a prediction made over twenty years ago. I think it’s pretty damn good.

    That’s my opinion.

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  183. RightNow (6,839 comments) says:

    Black is just a shade of white.

    (with no particular reference to anything, I just like the quote)

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  184. Scott Chris (5,967 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen says:- “We know the true warming signal is currently suppressed by temporary weather events”

    Illustrated beautifully in this simple graph:

    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/hazards/2011/12/enso-global-temp-anomalies.png

    Watch out for the next El Nino. He’s gonna be a record breaker.

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  185. reid (16,103 comments) says:

    Key should have got himself a megaphone and directed it toward all the protesters until their ears hurt so much they were forced to stop their incessant screeching. Leaving is for whussies. BTW, this action was entirely predictable. Reading the news last week, anyone at all could work out this was definitely going to happen. So what sort of planning had Key done, to avoid looking like a little girl, which he just did, over this. Another example of how useless the Nats are at managing public image generally which is going to be fatal for them this term, if they don’t start doing it a lot, from here on in.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6368974/Key-leaves-Waitangi-due-to-protesters

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