Violence begets violence

March 1st, 2012 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

We know the details that shocked a nation:

Inside the caravan, locked the door and grabbed the girl around the neck as she tried to flee.

He began to choke her in an attempt to stop her screams; he did so with such force that she passed out. Then he began to beat her about the face and body with his fists and elbows while sexually assaulting her.

The attack on the girl left her with four teeth knocked out and serious internal injuries.

Both her eyes were swollen shut and she had cuts and bruising to her face.

She was rushed to Waikato Hospital in a life-threatened condition and underwent surgery for 4½ hours.

The 10 year sentence seems appropriate for me. I understand the severity of the assault had a starting point of 18 years, but then you discount 30% for the guilty plea and a discount for his age.  While not abdicating him of responsibility, his background is very sad:

Immersed in a life of gang culture, Marino grew up wanting to emulate his father and join a gang, the court was told.

His childhood was bereft of role models or strong parenting, and marked by excessive violence between his parents, and from his father.

His parents separated when he was 13 and he did not see his mother for three years.

He was badly burned as a child when his siblings ran a hot bath for him, because his mother was drunk.

The injuries to his hands required extensive skin grafts.

A family member sexually assaulted him when he was 9 and again when he was 15, the court heard.

I do wonder how he managed to stay with his parents all this time, and not get placed into care?

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162 Responses to “Violence begets violence”

  1. GAZMAN (21 comments) says:

    Yes Marino’s background was sad but what sort of message are we sending when that type of attack, to a 5 year old no less, only attracts 10 years (with no minimum parole period). he could be out before he is 20. Also have the family members who sexually assulted him ever been charged?

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  2. smttc (689 comments) says:

    Ahhh the old “He was dropped on his head as a child” plea in mitigation.

    While it may explain a few things, his background excuses nothing.

    Frankly, I think he got off bloody lightly with only 10 years.

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  3. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    The 10 year sentence seems appropriate for me. I understand the severity of the assault had a starting point of 18 years, but then you discount 30% for the guilty plea and a discount for his age.

    DPF, your conversion to bleeding-heart , left-of-centre liberal is complete. Sigh.

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  4. labours a joke (442 comments) says:

    Who cares about the ferals background. I dont. I wish death on him. My thoughts are with the poor wee mite he almost murdered. 10 years is an absolute joke of a sentence but what do you expect from our pathetic, pathetic ‘justice’ system. The piece of excrement will be out in time for his 21st ready to kill and maim. Bastard. I say bullet him now.

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  5. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    not so sure. He will be out when hes 26 (maybe earlier – i dont know if there is no parole)

    she will be 16 when he comes out……….

    Not sure that just 10 yrs is enough. Chemical castration I think should be part of the sentance.

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  6. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    His background shouldn’t matter regarding his sentence.

    But the reason this boy grew up like he did, was because his father and mother and sexually abusive relative would have both been to the courts themselves – rather than lock them up and keep a young Raurangi Marino safe the judge would have released the parents to give them a “second” chance and to “keep the family together”.

    If his parents were locked up for child abuse for a decent length of time, prevented from having more kids (as they’d be in jail) we could have saved the suffering of both Marino and the poor 5 year old.

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  7. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    Fuck every time I get caught I cry like a baby too. Worst I’ve ever done is be pulled over for speeding; it doesn’t mean people are sorry. Criminals and perverts always know how to turn on the tears.

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  8. Northland Wahine (647 comments) says:

    Violence doesn’t have to beget violence….

    Very few children (thank whichever god you pray to) dragged up in the same manner, will turn out like this.

    This will not be a popular view…

    As drunk and drugged out a this kid was, as horrific as his upbringing was, as USELESS as his parents are (not were), he still knew what was right and what was wrong.

    If he didn’t, why not rape a 5 year old in full view of everyone? Simple. He knew his actions were simply vile and didn’t want anyone else to know, unless they were on HIS terms. I’m still not convinced that this kid didn’t do this for a patch. Call me cynical.

    And gang members nationwide will be raising their collective fists in the air making whatever “sign” they make. The only reason they are pissed with this kid is because he brought unwanted attention onto them while they merrily go about breaking every other law in this country.

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  9. berend (1,631 comments) says:

    DPF: The 10 year sentence seems appropriate for me. I understand the severity of the assault had a starting point of 18 years, but then you discount 30% for the guilty plea and a discount for his age.

    Probably your saddest comment of 2012. Really, 10 years of supposed jail is release after 1/3, so this is just 4 years behind bars. That’s shocking.

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  10. Don the Kiwi (1,586 comments) says:

    The gang culture is a huge problem in our society, and our respective governments have been far too soft on them.

    Disband and de-patch the gangs; if they resist and cause civil unrest – in the order of shootings and civil violence – send the military in and blow the bastards away. They are the bulk of the drug dealers and criminals in society.

    Going through a bit of pain for a brief period to rid the scum from our streets will be worth it.

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  11. Than (425 comments) says:

    The part that really worries me is that he beat her *after* she had passed out. Why? What possible motive could there be? The sheer pointlessness of it, the utter lack of conscience.

    I have severe doubts that this individual can ever be rehabilitated.

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  12. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    I’ve blogged on another hopeless case (Kelly Percy) of late:
    Monsters don’t necessarily appear that way. They can blub, show contrition and appear remorseful. What they also have that makes them a different breed entirely, is an ability to self deceive and compartmentalize. At the very most Ms Percy knows perfectly well who murdered her child. At the very least she is somehow convinced that she wouldn’t play pokies and neglect her child in the future. “She states that ” if the same thing was to happen to another of her children she says they’d take them instantly to the doctors”.
    What the rest of us; normal, compassionate, empathetic humans mustn’t ever do, is allow ourselves to be sucked into her deception without proof of her rehabilitation. Our humanity is at stake.

    It’s sad, but if he couldn’t get past what happened to him, previously, he most likely isn’t capable of changing. If he does change, it’s still worth keeping him in prison for the full 18yr non parole period to prevent risk to society.

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  13. Megatron (187 comments) says:

    Put it this way – in one hand you have a 5 cent piece, in the other you have a (old) 50 cent piece)
    The 5 cent piece represents this bastards anus – now, the 50 cent piece represents his anus in about a weeks’ time. I hope he gets buggered to death.

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  14. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Even four years seems like a long time to spend locked up with no freedom in the worst possible company. I think four months would be terrible. Maybe numbers get thrown around with little thought of what they would actually amount to in real life.

    Posted on Whaleoil:
    He may deserve it, but wishing suffering on him won’t solve anything. He’s the product of a terrible unpbringing in a self admitted terrible family. One kid caught and jailed amongst a terrible culture of violence and abuse will not do anything to reduce the chances of similar crimes.

    Heaping hate on the heinous may let off peripheral steam but it does nothing to douse the heat on the boiler.

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  15. Jadis (147 comments) says:

    Sorry, but to me ten years isn’t enough. He gets ten (less more likely) while she gets a life sentence. Absolute bollocks.

    Also, why are the rights of adults so much more important than the rights of children. great that the Mother is taking some responsibility now BUT… If the Mother or Father (or others around them, including family, friends and neighbours) had taken more responsibility and intervened when Marino was a baby or toddler then the lives of two children could have been so very different. We are too bloody soft on terrible parenting, neglect and abuse. We worry too much about the rights of the adults, of the parents and don’t consider what the neglect and abuse produces later.

    Harping on about personal responsibility and choice is all well and good up to the point where an individual harms others.

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  16. Keeping Stock (10,092 comments) says:

    I’ve just left a comment and link over at the GD, having also just blogged about Raurangi Marino. Maybe if we are the civilised society we profess to be, the time has come when criminal gangs are outlawed.

    Of course, the civil libertarians will get all a-lather, but without doubt Marino was a product both of his genetics (Black Power and Mongrel Mob in his DNA), and of the environment he was raised in.

    And the scary thing is this; how many more Raurangi Marinos are walking the streets today, getting pissed and stoned and committing petty crimes whilst their fuses slowly burn down?

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  17. Griff (6,704 comments) says:

    We need to Target gangs hard!
    Fuck their human rights were are societies rights.
    They do untold harm in this country
    Yet we can not even stop them warring their Patches.
    FFS wearing one acknowledges their involvement in a organized criminal network.
    Scum from Head hunter to Hells Arseholes.

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  18. cows4me (248 comments) says:

    Why not lay the blame for this crime on the years of liberal soft cocked politically correct governments that believe they are right and we are wrong. Why not blame the welfare systems that give free range for these people to breed like flys while the rest of society must pay more and more because the system is fucked up? Why not blame the liberal hair brained education system that called for the end of corporal punishment, then they moan because chaos reins? Why not blame the justice system that simply plays lip service to crimes like this? Why not blame the penal system when scum like this can expect colour TV and a heated prison cell, whatever happened to hard labour or chain gangs? Why not blame the totally fucking mad academics that have elevated Maori culture and are happy to promote the noble savage role while brushing aside many of the negative aspects of this cultrue.

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  19. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    Heaping hate on the heinous may let off peripheral steam but it does nothing to douse the heat on the boiler.

    P.G., I can almost see you singing Kumbaya. Stop straddling the fence and for once tell us what you think.

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  20. slightlyrighty (2,496 comments) says:

    I think this crime required 18 years. The act itself cannot be mitigated in any way. The only way that this sentence should be reduced is by how the offender acts in prison, but having said this, there is a culture among those who would act in this way that precludes accepting blame.

    The offender blames his parents and upbringing, the parents defer responsibility, saying that they have no control over the kid. Each party should accept full blame for what has happened, but only the 16 year old is serving time. At least he had the guts to plead guilty.

    [DPF: Think about what it means if you offer no discount for an early guilty plea. it means no criminal ever ever pleads guilty.

    In this case, it means a full trial where the family doesn't get a verdict for maybe another year, where the five year old may have to give evidence, and the family may even have to fly back to NZ for the trial. ]

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  21. Keeping Stock (10,092 comments) says:

    @ slightlyrighty; Marino’s guilty plea was nothing to do with guts. He was caught bang to rights, and his lawyer will have advised him to cop it sweet, knowing that he would get a one-third’s reduction in sentence as prescribed in law.

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  22. CHFR (216 comments) says:

    This piece of human filth needs a bullet, we shoot rabid dogs and he is no better than that. I am sorry DPF but we have tried hug a crim for the last few years and look where it has got us a feral underclass who no longer resemble any human I know.

    If this was my daughter this bastard would spend the rest (of his short) life looking over his shoulder because I an asure you I would come after him.

    A society is judged on how it protects its weakest (or that is what the do gooders tell us when it suits them) well in this case the judge has failed the society I want to live in.

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  23. 2boyz (250 comments) says:

    Unfortunately I don’t think it’s long enough, my gut feeling is he will be before the courts a lot more during his life time.

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  24. Jadis (147 comments) says:

    Also, concurrent sentencing is a joke. Criminals should just go commit a bunch of crimes and know they’ll really only have to serve the term for the ‘worst’ crime.

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  25. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Manolo – I’ve said what I think but I’ll rephrase – this crime sickened my, it was horrible.
    The perpetrator deserves to be severely punished.
    I think some people toss ‘years in prison’ as some vague numbers game.
    Sentences are relative, if he’d been given 18 what does that leave for murder? Multiple murder?
    Going ape over one crime and one sentence is not going to achieve anything positive.

    If half the time, intellect and energy spent on the gripemill was redirected towards finding positive ways of improving our society we would be a lot better off.

    All that seems to happen after these crimes (and we only focus on a handful of the worst) is a burst of bravado and retribution, but that quickly subsides until the next time, and the next time.

    Killing everyone who’s violent, wishing terrible violence on people that are violent, just keeps the cycle of violence raging.

    We all need to think differently if we want a better society. And do. Something. Except. Bitch. And. Rant.

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  26. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    barry,


    Not sure that just 10 yrs is enough.

    Definitely on the low side. He should be in there for 15 non parole at least.


    Chemical castration I think should be part of the sentance.

    Not so sure. It’s effectiveness is limited and I’m uncomfortable with the government imposing medical treatments for criminal convictions. In principle it seems no different than removing someone’s hand because they committed theft, or beating someone who assaults. As a matter of principle the government should stick to incarceration as the only appropriate punishment for criminal offending.

    On the other hand I wouldn’t oppose the evaluation of offenders up for parole on the basis of their voluntary use of drugs as an indication of their desire to modify their behaviour.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5264564/Chemicals-don-t-always-stop-sex-offenders

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  27. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Pete George,


    Sentences are relative, if he’d been given 18 what does that leave for murder? Multiple murder?

    I agree with your point re sentencing being relative. But that’s the problem with our system, the sentences for murder are weak as well. The starting point for murder should be life without parole. If there are some extenuating circumstances THEN we should look at a possible release date. But if it’s just cold blooded murder then there should be no second chances ever.

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  28. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    If this was my daughter this bastard would spend the rest (of his short) life looking over his shoulder because I an asure you I would come after him.

    If it was my daughter I don’t know what I’d do, but I know for sure I’d be bloody angry.

    BUT…isn’t this the sort of behaviour prevalent in gangs that we want to stop?

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  29. Scott Chris (5,870 comments) says:

    Heh, the usual “Hang ‘em high” suspects reacting emotionally yet again.

    Fact is, Marino’s genetic disposition combined with his awful upbringing led to this tragedy, and the only realistic way of tackling this problem is to identify at risk children as early as possible and intervene decicively and effectively.

    Those of you fantasizing about summary justice and retribution are wasting your time. It ain’t gonna happen so you may as well start coming up with some *realistic* solutions instead of your usual ranting and raving.

    The state, both under Labour and National have failed to protect Marino, and by extension failed to protect the five year old child.

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  30. Mark (497 comments) says:

    If you are a a gang member or an associate should you have a child they should be removed at birth.

    Paying these retards to bred and raise children is a receipe for failure.

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  31. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock,


    Maybe if we are the civilised society we profess to be, the time has come when criminal gangs are outlawed.

    What’s a “criminal gang”? If a political party supports some silly celebrity illegally climbing up a drilling tower do they become a “criminal gang”?

    And if these gangs exist to break laws, what makes you think breaking just one more law is going to stop them?

    The tragedy is these gangs thrive on our own stupid policies, particularly the prohibition of drugs which gives them a never ending stream of cash to fund their activities.

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  32. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    The state, both under Labour and National have failed to protect Marino, and by extension failed to protect the five year old child.

    “The state” is too remote – it’s families, communities, our society that is failing. Some are far more responsible for the problems than others, but we are all a part of it.

    Violent language on blogs is a part of our culture of violence.

    Violence is a very vicious circle.

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  33. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    The state, both under Labour and National have failed to protect Marino, and by extension failed to protect the five year old child.

    Scott’s email illustrates the absolute abdication of individual responsibility much sought-after by the left. Notice the opening words The state … never the parents or the whanau or the young criminal himself.

    His naming of this vile criminal before the victim is sickening.

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  34. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    CHFR,


    If this was my daughter this bastard would spend the rest (of his short) life looking over his shoulder because I an asure you I would come after him.

    Agreed.. and if someone murdered someone close to me I’d want to kill them as well and given our weak sentencing the risk is probably worth it. However, this does not make it a rational basis for criminal justice. It’s an emotional response designed with no other purpose than to satisfy a desire for vengeance.

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  35. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    It makes me wonder what someone would actually have to do, to attract the maximum sentence for something in this country.

    If EVER there’s a “type” of offender that is self-evidently dangerous and that society needs protecting from, it’s one who breaks into someone’s caravan at random, and then when he finds a tiny little 5 year old girl there he rapes and tries to kill her.

    It’s hard to imagine any real human being having the capability of doing something like that.

    It’s hard to imagine a Thing that is capable of doing such acts, ever being “rehabilitated” into a proper human being.

    Death is the best thing that could happen to that Thing.
    I hope it dies.
    I hope it dies sooner rather than later.

    (My normal leftie service will be resumed shortly.)

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  36. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    I don’t think “the state” deserves blame for what this boy did. While he may have had a bad upbringing, and that set of circumstances may have been facilitated by the state, it didn’t force him to do what he did. I think it more likely that something in his nature (perhaps genetic?) predisposes him to violent behaviour just as it may have predisposed his relative to commit abuse on him.

    But regardless, I’m not sure there’s much we can do to end random vicious attacks like this. I’m confident he wasn’t weighing up possible sentencing options before he carried out the attack. I’m sure he wasn’t considering the difference between concurrent sentencing and cumulative sentencing. So to think that our justice system has the potential to deter people like this is wishful thinking IMHO.

    There is something terribly wrong in his mind and the best we can hope for is to use his time in jail to try and remedy whatever short circuit is going on inside his head… hopefully before he’s roaming the streets again.

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  37. Griff (6,704 comments) says:

    Gang culture is at the heart of this problem
    With out doubt teachers the teachers involved his education would know at an early age the fact that he was from a gang household
    The police and cyfs would know as well

    Why is there not an effective program to help these kids?

    Effective intervention at an early age would save the future cost of a lifetime of welfare and incarceration that these kids inherit from their culture.

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  38. MikeMan (171 comments) says:

    [DPF: Think about what it means if you offer no discount for an early guilty plea. it means no criminal ever ever pleads guilty.

    In this case, it means a full trial where the family doesn't get a verdict for maybe another year, where the five year old may have to give evidence, and the family may even have to fly back to NZ for the trial. ]

    So how about for violent and sexual crimes an early guilty plea takes the mandatory non-parole period down, not the sentence.

    So for this case the sentence could have been 18 years with 10 years non-parole but without the guilty plea it would have been 18 years with an 18 year non-parole period.

    That would mean that there is still an advantage to a well behaved or remorseful criminal (Oxymoron I know) to plead guilty.

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  39. smttc (689 comments) says:

    Oh yes, it is all the State’s fault. I keep forgetting that the State is there to solve every problem in life.

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  40. wf (371 comments) says:

    The wee girl is blessed with loving parents. She will have support to overcome and outgrow the trauma.
    Her attacker, had he had such care, would probably not be in the situation he is in today.

    I walk around the village and look at the lovely babies and their mums, nannies, and occasionally their dads, and wonder which of these little ones are being ill treated in the dark secret places of their homes, while their loving protectors maintain the code of silence.

    If I was brave enough I would ask each person with a baby – Is this little one safe in its family? Are you sure that his family can be trusted not to abuse him?

    The only way to stop this behaviour is to make sure that all eyes are wide open, that the village raises the child.

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  41. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    [DPF: Think about what it means if you offer no discount for an early guilty plea. it means no criminal ever ever pleads guilty.]

    You could achieve the same incentive by guaranteeing that the sentence will always be the maximum, if a Not Guilty pleas is entered and then a guilty verdict is eventually reached.

    There should be the POSSIBILITY of a sentencing discount if you plead guilty early. Not the promise of it. Proven criminal scum don’t deserve to be treated with respect.

    It’s time this country started throwing its rubbish in the bin.

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  42. Lance (2,439 comments) says:

    @RRM
    Welcome to the dark side, your journey is complete

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  43. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    RRM,


    There should be the POSSIBILITY of a sentencing discount if you plead guilty early. Not the promise of it. Proven criminal scum don’t deserve to be treated with respect.

    In which case the criminal will probably just roll the dice putting the victim through the unnecessary trauma of a trial. In order to be an incentive there has to be something to consider. A mere possibility isn’t much to consider when a trial also gives you a possibility.. the possibility of going free.

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  44. rouppe (914 comments) says:

    Well 10 years is better than what Henare O’Keefe proposes, which is a few hugs on the Marae.

    DPF, why should his age produce a discount? This isn’t youthful exuberance, or taking a silly risk that went wrong.

    This is a deliberate entry into someone else’s property, merciless beating of a child a quarter of his size, followed up with a sexual molesting. There can be no basis by which he could be excused for thinking his actions were not awful and destructive.
    What’s left for murder, double murder? Capital punishment.

    Scott Chris: What do you mean, his genetic disposition? I certainly hope you are not saying he did this beause he is Maori…

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  45. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    @ WF – you really think the kind of parents who are the problem, would open their eyes and see the error of their ways after a few words from you in the street?

    @ lance – the meme that all us lefties love criminals is such a joke, usually put about by weak stupid people with no arguments of their own. I hardly ever bother correcting it when I see it now…

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  46. Bob R (1,335 comments) says:

    ***While not abdicating him of responsibility, his background is very sad:***

    Indeed, but he shouldn’t be allowed to endanger others. He should be either in prison, or some kind of facility.

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  47. Bob R (1,335 comments) says:

    ***Scott Chris: What do you mean, his genetic disposition?***

    Criminality does tend to have a genetic element. For instance, people with certain gene alleles affect the way people respond to abusive childhood environments.

    “While gangs typically have been regarded as a sociological phenomenon, our investigation shows that variants of a specific MAOA gene, known as a ‘low-activity 3-repeat allele,’ play a significant role,” said Beaver, an award-winning researcher who has co-authored more than 50 published papers on the biosocial underpinnings of criminal behavior.

    “Previous research has linked low-activity MAOA variants to a wide range of antisocial, even violent, behavior, but our study confirms that these variants can predict gang membership,” he said. “Moreover, we found that variants of this gene could distinguish gang members who were markedly more likely to behave violently and use weapons from members who were less likely to do either.”

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090605123237.htm

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  48. Michael Mckee (1,091 comments) says:

    I do not think that the gang culture should in no way be a mitigating circumstance nor should an early plea or his age and until we deal to that flip flop attitude amongst our judiciary we are on to a losing wicket.
    Justifying their behaviour based on their upbringing does not hold them to account for decent normal behaviour.

    He is old enough to understand what he did is wrong as she is a child, how hard is that to get to grips with, clearly that judge needs a review.

    20 years would have been fair with no parole. That it isn’t and he will walk after a 3rd is an indictment on our justice system and a slap in the face for the victim and her family.

    Thank God we have Garth McVicar standing up for victims in this country for both parliament and the judiciary don’t.
    I am surprised we don’t have more vigilante justice, I would find it very hard to convict someone who did for this guy.

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  49. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    Violence does not beget violence.

    The prime cause of criminality is the decision by the offender to commit crime.

    Shocked the nation…… yeah right ,yet another disgusting crime in a litany of similar disgusting crimes and certainly not the last.

    Smash the gangs and bring back the noose.

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  50. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    Pete George (12,491) Says:

    “The state” is too remote – it’s families, communities, our society that is failing. Some are far more responsible for the problems than others, but we are all a part of it.

    Pete,
    It’s easy for even ostensibly “good” parents to make the mistake of hitting their children to punish them for serious misdemeanours…. then before they know it they’re hitting them for relatively minor misdemeanours… and from there, basically hitting them any time they speak out of turn. THAT’S the cycle of violence, THAT’S what needs to stop.

    What separates the ACTUALLY GOOD parents, from the merely “ostensibly good” ones (who have “good” jobs, “good” homes, “good” social standing) is that ACTUALLY GOOD parents recognise when they are doing something wrong, and they undertake to raise their standards to become better parents than they are, and they raise themselves out of it. That is what plenty of GOOD people do, and it’s a life-long process of improvement even for really exemplary parents.

    So I disagree that it’s in any way “society’s failing” when this kind of thing happens. Weak, inadequate people are what’s failing. People who can’t meet personal standards of behaviour that plenty of other people do manage to meet.

    I am trying to avoid sounding like an advocate for fascism here. But when individual people fail to live up to standards of conduct that should be expected of them, I think the rest of us are entitled to condemn and blame them for it. I don’t think we should feel obliged to “fix” them, as though their failings are something we have somehow done TO them.

    Pressure and expectations to perform are what people need to make them excel. Not hugs and “never mind you’ll do better next time” and holistic justice on the marae…

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  51. Jack5 (4,569 comments) says:

    At 16, kids can achieve much – in sport and many fields. They can be heroes, as in civil calamities and in war.

    By 16, you choose behaviour, good or bad.

    This little scumbag chose to horrifically attack a little child. If he was indeed abused, his experiences showed him the horror of what he was doing. No-one held a gun to his head. He was alone, apart from his victim.

    The sick people are those who would blame everything else and everyone-else for a person’s evil actions and evil choices. Why don’t these trendy fuckwits read Dostoevsky? Or read a little moral philosophy? If this too hard, why can’t they just consider the hundreds of thousands of people who have been abused, or suffer social handicaps, but who don’t commit horrific crimes. The tens of thousands of decent people who choose not to inflict on others what was done to them?

    I couldn’t finish listening to Ryan on Labour Radio this morning as she gave the monster’s lawyer a hearing. Ryan banged on about what treatment the monster could get behind bars, and even questioned whether the Corrections Department psychologists were sufficiently qualified and skilled to give the monster the one-to-one counselling she thinks he requires.

    The Labour Radio Nine-to-Noon team need a little counselling themselves, if this morning’s effort on the Tuarangi monster is any indication.

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  52. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    But when individual people fail to live up to standards of conduct that should be expected of them, I think the rest of us are entitled to condemn and blame them for it.

    I agree with that, I think more of us need to speak up more when this sort of thing happens and make it clear it’s totally unacceptable (to be really effective people within those families and communities need to be seen to be heard).

    But I don’t think threatening to lock up or hang anyone you think could be a threat is going to achieve anything, except perhaps regurgitate anger and frustration. Resorting to violent language is part of the wider society culture problem.

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  53. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Jack5,


    By 16, you choose behaviour, good or bad.

    Really? What about 15 and 364 days? 363 days? 362 days? Just stop me at the specific time when people suddenly attain the ability to make mature rational decisions. :)

    I’m not saying youth in this particular case serves as much of an explanation given the heinous nature of the crime perpetrated. BUT, there’s plenty of evidence that full maturity is not realized until about age 25 and it’s no coincidence that men in their 20s make up a disproportionate percentage of the prison population.

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  54. Elaycee (4,297 comments) says:

    RRM says: “It’s time this country started throwing its rubbish in the bin.”

    How true.

    I’m appalled to read some other comments from the bleeding hearts and hand wringers among us…. How anyone could possibly suggest this disgusting violence could somehow be skewed to be read in a different light because of some (so called) ‘mitigating’ factors in this prick’s background, is a disgrace. Everyone knows right from wrong. No excuses. Nil. Nada. Zip.

    And to suggest that this arsewipe should be entitled to a sentence discount because he entered an early guilty plea – what total bollocks. This should apply the opposite way – if no early guilty plea is entered, then no eligibility for parole. And apply the full sentence.

    I struggle to understand how someone could, on the one hand call for this prick to be given leniency and on the other hand they still manage to sleep soundly at night.

    They need to remove their rose tinted glasses and accept that the evil pricks among us, should be culled from society.

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  55. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Elaycee,


    And to suggest that this arsewipe should be entitled to a sentence discount because he entered an early guilty plea – what total bollocks. This should apply the opposite way – if no early guilty plea is entered, then no eligibility for parole. And apply the full sentence.

    In which case eligibility for parole would be the discount, so in principle I’m not sure I see the difference. However, removing parole is not helpful in my view as it removes any incentive to improve character behind bars.

    Seems to me the problem here is the actual starting point for sentencing and perhaps the AMOUNT of time reduced for early guilty plea.

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  56. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    kowtow,


    The prime cause of criminality is the decision by the offender to commit crime.

    Blank slate fallacy. There is plenty of evidence linking predisposing factors to crime. The most obvious is the Y chromosome.

    Edit: Actually to be fair you did say the “prime cause” not the only cause.

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  57. adze (1,856 comments) says:

    The most depressing thought is that there’s very little we can do (besides early prevention) to make things right. Jail is altogether such an unsatisfactory tool. Too much of an experience for some, too little for others. Costly, a waste of resources and humanity…
    I sometimes wonder if other radical interventions could work. As a truly left-field example, I wonder what long term effects an hour or two of a dose of salvia divinorum would have on a violent criminal. This is a plant noted (even in small doses) for strong dissociative hallucinatory effects ranging from spiritual in nature to terrifying, some of which have been recorded as life changing.

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  58. Scott Chris (5,870 comments) says:

    Weihana

    In theory The State is appointed by its citizens to protect its citizen’s rights. It would be unreasonable to expect them to fulfill this obligation with complete success as government is plainly a “work in progress”, however the standard to which they must aspire *is* one of complete success.

    So I’m not blaming them as such, simply alluding to their ideal function.

    The problem may simply be that the law overprotects the rights of inept parents.

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  59. KevinH (1,131 comments) says:

    From the Herald:

    “Judge Cooper acknowledged a letter from Marino’s mother which detailed his upbringing amid a gang culture and abuse. “I want to make it clear that you are responsible for your own actions,” he told Marino.

    “Having said that, your whanau and your extended whanau are responsible for an upbringing which has produced a young man who committed such an appalling and sickening crime.”

    Raurangi Mark Marino is now a convicted sex offender, a peadophile who has committed one of the most heinous acts a peadophile may commit in that he raped and abused a defenceless child.
    Commentators should not feel sympathy for this offender because he was conscious of the act he was committing, it was calculated and carried out without no remorse or consideration for his victim.
    This young man must undergo psychological treatment in prison and not be released back into the community until psychologists are satisfied that he has control of his behaviour, and will not reoffend again, because he is a danger to the community.
    The sentence handed down by Judge Cooper is not satisfactory and does not fully take into consideration the degree of seriousness of the offence this young man has committed. He will require a considerable amount of time in rehabilitation for that rehabilition to have any substantial effect on moderating his future behaviour.

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  60. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    I have a one year old girl baby. And a one year old boy baby, as it happens. GO THE HANG Em HIGH BRIGADE.
    And I don’t think we should be fooling ourselves about what the parents are thinking of New Zealand. They’ll have been seeing red; they’ll be telling everyone that listens that New Zealand breeds mongrels. To me we’re the new Pitcairn Islands where children get sacrificed for political correctness

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  61. Scott Chris (5,870 comments) says:

    Jack says:- “By 16, you choose behaviour, good or bad.”

    Some are born bad, some achieve badness, and some have badness thrust upon them.

    One major problem with your simplistic view of life is that you must assume that everyone has equal opportunity. This obviously isn’t true so you may as well abandon that line of thought.

    Give someone a decent home and a decent education and decent parents, THEN you can have a reasonable expectation that they will succeed.

    It’s too late to try to change socially dysfunctional adults so you may as well focus on their kids.

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  62. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    I’m not saying youth in this particular case serves as much of an explanation given the heinous nature of the crime perpetrated. BUT, there’s plenty of evidence that full maturity is not realized until about age 25 and it’s no coincidence that men in their 20s make up a disproportionate percentage of the prison population.

    There are two things in there…

    (1) You’re right that full maturity is not achieved until… well sometime.

    (2) Immaturity as explanation/causation of criminal offending? Really???
    Serious crimes like rape, murder and assault are things anyone should know are wrong. Unless you’ve been living under a rock you know rape murder and assault are bad things that you should not be doing to someone. There really is NO excuse, not even immaturity and especially not being drunk or simply being male.

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  63. RRM (9,427 comments) says:

    I’ve decided we need a new clean, green, ecologically-sustainable model for our justice system. One based around that most restorative, nurturing, life-giving of modern inventions: the compost bin. :-D

    Under my new COMPOST BIN MODEL FOR THE NEW ZEALAND JUSTICE SYSTEM, prison is seen as being akin to a black plastic garden compost bin.

    You throw your distasteful, unpalatable waste products in there, and then you leave them there until they are completely decomposed.

    Once they have been broken down and eaten by worms, then what remains is a nutrient-rich fertilizer that can be used for growing a healthy garden…

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  64. Jack5 (4,569 comments) says:

    Weihana posted at 12.16:

    ..there’s plenty of evidence that full maturity is not realized until about age 25 and it’s no coincidence that men in their 20s make up a disproportionate percentage of the prison population.

    Weihana, you will argue that people shouldn’t get the vote until age 26 then? Or be conscripted during war? Or choose to have an abortion? Or even get a driving licence?

    “Maturity?” You will bring a “maturity” test into the law? “Your Honour, the maturity panel reports that he didn’t know what he was doing because he wasn’t yet mature, he was ten years under 26.”

    Do we keep improving in maturity? What about regression in old age?

    Do you mean emotionally stable? I agree few criminals would meet that standard, but that in itself isn’t illegal.

    Do you mean some sort of measurable “maturity” level where you are fit to make decisions? Mao and Uncle Joe and Adolf Schicklgruber would agree with that. They would agree some people just aren’t mature enough to know right from wrong, their right from their wrong.

    Fortunately we have a more civilised standard of right and wrong. But how would we judge who met these? Who would set the tests and how would they be marked?

    Having to pass such a “maturity” test to show we could make choices would have wide ramifications. People who didnt’ meet the standard surely wouldn’t be allowed to sign contracts, or get married, or enter civil unions, or perhaps even drink alcohol.

    And perhaps a lot of people in their 20s are in prison because they are at less stable stages of their lives, before families etc settle them down. Or because they suffer more from unemployment or bad education, or benefit more from welfare benefits, or are the prey of gangs that society allowed to develop.

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  65. Manolo (13,327 comments) says:

    This cannot be the RRM we know. He or she is a changed person, a much more logical individual! :-)

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  66. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    I am sickened my this piece of human excrement.

    His ‘crocodile tears’ don’t fool me. He will no doubt be rewarded with a shiny new gang patch for his disgusting actions- I strongly suspect the ‘Bros’ inside will be laughing and high fiving at pulling one over that wimp of a judge…

    Anyone want to take any bets on how soon this disgusting filth rapes or murders when he gets out? I’d say (conservatively) he will be making headlines again in 2017. God help him if he comes near my family, I’d get justice in an ‘Old Testament’ sense..

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  67. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    We need to clarify what offends people most. Is it the starting point for the sentence? The discount applied for the mitigating factors? The final sentence imposed? The likely length of time the offender will actually servce? Whether there are realistic prospects for rehabilitation of this man in prison?

    It seems a few here have trouble comprehending the sentencing system, which is actually capable of comparing a whole range of factors and then ending at an equitable result. It is of course also subject to appeal, in cases where the judge may have miscalculated.

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  68. Jack5 (4,569 comments) says:

    Scott Chris posted at 12.52:

    One major problem with your simplistic view of life is that you must assume that everyone has equal opportunity. This obviously isn’t true so you may as well abandon that line of thought.

    First, the choice of free will or full determinisms is not a simple choice.

    Second, Scott Chris you are arguing the old line that environment determines all crime.
    Not even the Marxists believed this. Old Karl thought that 5 per cent of the population, the lumpen protelatiat, were just idiots we had to carry.

    The view comes from Christian socialism, which with the abandonment of Christianity has left us just with a soft socialism, studded with lightweight thinkers, such as the Bishop of Christchurch, who today advocates turning the quake ravaged Cathedral Square into an artifical beach with giant movie screens.

    I agree background, such as a poverty, plays a part in crime. Obviously if people are starving there will be more theft. But finally, the Tuarangi monster out burgling made the choice to brutally ravage this little child. He wasn’t too drunk or too high to find an unlocked caravan. Most burglars, including those from similarly nasty backgrounds, would not have attacked the child.

    The fact that most people from impoverished, and even from abusive backgrounds, choose not to abandon civilised standards of choice, proves that choice – free will – comes into play.

    Most criminals are not sick. They have made bad choices.

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  69. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Lots of good stuff above….and I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing – at least to a point – with Scott Chris. Fantasising about extreme retribution is simply that – fantasy. It aint gonna happen, which is one of the main reasons anyone advocating for reintroduction of the death penalty for our worse murderers – as I once did – is wasting their time.

    But what is coming through very cleary above – and what we very much CAN do something about – is the pernicious and evil effects of gangs. While it is probably correct that it is too late to eliminate them – at least not without using methods most would find unacceptable – they can be harrassed constantly; “turned over” in police speak, constantly. Prosecuted every time they commit even minor offences. It has been done – in Wanganui well before the gang patch law. A police commander who was very clear that they were criminal organisations who did nothing good did exactly what I have described – and gang crime in the area dropped significantly.

    Along comes a new boy, more interested in “engaging” and “working” with gangs; result: gang crime increases again. And in the last parliament we had Power who insisted on inviting “constructive” gang leaders to his “Drivers of Crime” summit – completely failing to understand that THEY are one of chief “drivers of crime”!

    Thankfully with Judith Collins at Justice we have someone well connected to planet earth…But other than Banks she has no support on the right, and plenty of clowns like Chester “criminals are victims too” Borrows undermining her.

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  70. Maaik (33 comments) says:

    I agree with the previous posters who contend that prison is not the right place for this young man.

    He should be in a little urn on his mother’s mantlepiece, so she can point at it while telling her other children “That is what happens when you break the law and kill someone, or rape a child”.

    No chance of either happening – even if he ends up in a little urn (one can but hope the prison system is fallible enough to let that happen), what are the odds that his mother, or anybody in that dysfunctional family, will learn from the experience? At least he will not re-offend.

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  71. Brian Smaller (3,983 comments) says:

    This whole concept of discounts on a sentence for pleading guilty, or showing remorse is what sickens me. Are these judges morons not to know that everyone who gets caught feels remorse – at least to the face of the authorities. There should be no discount for an early guilty plea – they were already lying their heads off five minutes before that.

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  72. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Jack5,

    Weihana, you will argue that people shouldn’t get the vote until age 26 then? Or be conscripted during war? Or choose to have an abortion? Or even get a driving licence?

    No I won’t and I am not.

    Simply stating the obvious truth that youth breeds bad decision making and in general is a legitimate mitigating circumstance to take into consideration. I’m not saying that it should hold much weight IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE but I do oppose the simplistic attitude of treating a 16 year old as if they are as much an adult as anyone else.

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  73. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Brian Smaller: It is not entirely the Judges’ fault. They are to a very large degree hamstrung by the provisions of the Sentencing Act 2002 – a Clark era piece of legislation. That Act means Judges MUST give discounts for early guilty pleas, epxressions of remorse and offers of resititution; F E Smith and others will be better informed on this than me.

    Also, Judges are subject appeal, and it is very much not a “good look” – nor good for the career – for any judge who gets constantly or even reasonably frequently overturned on appeal. Again FES and others will have much better knowledge than me, but many if not most of the Court of Appeal Judges will be Clark era appointments, as of course are all of the Supreme Court judges.

    Ultimately, subjective terms like “manifestly excessive” in legislation are defined by Judges, in case law. This particular DCJ may have given this scumbag 10 years only with the greatest of reluctance, but fully aware that if he gave him much more it would be overturned on appeal.

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  74. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    David Garret

    You are wrong when you say “Extreme retribution”. And that it will never happen.

    It was normal to hang murderers not that long ago.Only soft cocks considered it “extreme” then.

    Alot of civilised countries still do it. If it were up to the electorate in many of the countries where it was done away with ie referendum, we’d still have it.OK maybe not in NZ but in the UK where MPs let their people down ,no surprises there.
    Same with the EU, no membership if you have capital punishment. Nothing like sovereign parliaments being dictated to by the ultra out of touch elites.

    I see a time in the future where as society continues to disintegrate and tear itself apart there will be change. Pendulums do swing and the liberal “rights” lobby will lose their influence.

    As to your crims that were turned over, I’d guess they were simply “displaced”in the period that the drop was noted.

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  75. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    RRM,


    (2) Immaturity as explanation/causation of criminal offending? Really???

    Partial explanation in some cases yes.


    Serious crimes like rape, murder and assault are things anyone should know are wrong. Unless you’ve been living under a rock you know rape murder and assault are bad things that you should not be doing to someone. There really is NO excuse, not even immaturity and especially not being drunk or simply being male.

    Unless living under a rock? Or equally we might say “Unless living in an environment where sexual violence, and violence in general, is tolerated”. This is not meant to excuse the boy for what he did, but it is foolish to believe that a child’s environment does not impact how they perceive the world and the moral values they will come to hold.

    When they turn 16 their childhood is not suddenly erased, rather they become the embodiment of their lifetime’s experience. Does anyone seriously believe that he would have committed this heinous act if he had a different upbringing? Is it any surprise that this act came on the heels of a drug binge and when Marino was angry?

    Again it doesn’t excuse him for his choice, but it seems foolish to ignore the circumstances which obviously contributed to his character and which we should hope to avoid in future such that we do not produce any more monsters like this.

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  76. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    It was normal to hang murderers not that long ago.Only soft cocks considered it “extreme” then.

    It was also normal to hang people found guilty of much lesser crimes.
    It was also not unknown to hang people before they were found guilty.
    It was also not unknown to hang people you didn’t like, because of their race or because the were accused of being witches.

    Almost everyone today would find those practices extreme.

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  77. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    PG
    Kumbaya………..

    Honestly don’t be such a prat. No one would advocate your silly examples.

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  78. Paulus (2,493 comments) says:

    Which gang will claim him, his mothers Mongrel Mob, or fathers Black Power.
    He is a whanau hero and when he gets out in 5 – 6 years he will do it again or similar.

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  79. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # kowtow (1,561) Says:
    March 1st, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    It was normal to hang murderers not that long ago.Only soft cocks considered it “extreme” then.

    Yeah I guess us “soft cocks” just don’t like the government murdering innocent people in our name.


    Alot of civilised countries still do it.

    Yeah awesome places… Saudi Arabia, Iran, China… just because the United States also has it does not make it civilized. It’s just one more example of how the US is falling behind.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Death_Penalty_World_Map.svg

    Count the “civilized” countries that have it.


    I see a time in the future where as society continues to disintegrate and tear itself apart there will be change. Pendulums do swing and the liberal “rights” lobby will lose their influence.

    O here we go.. The end is nigh! Homosexuals doing homosexual stuff, children taught about reproduction, the government isn’t killing people… we’re all doomed!

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  80. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    kowtow: May I respectfully suggest you take a closer look at what I have said?

    Since at least when my book was published in 1999 a comfortable majority of the NZ electorate has favoured the reintroduction of capital punishment for our worst murderers. I agree that one day – but I dont think it will be in my lifetime – there may be such an overwhelming public mood for its reintroduction that it will happen.

    My point is rather than tilting at that very far distant and problematic windmill, or others like it, we look at what CAN be done NOW…and harrassing gangs to their bare minimim size – much like radiation may not rid a person of their tumour, but reduce it to a size where they will eventually die of something else. It IS something that can be done. And something that will make a real difference.

    And contrary to what the pointy heads say, it can be done: the Germans have not succeeded in entirely eliminating neo Nazi gangs, but the members of such organizations are harrassed and routinely arrested. That is a model we could usefully follow with our gangs of scum.

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  81. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Weihana: I think most people would consider India, Japan, Singapore, Malaysia and many of the small Carribean states – all of whom regularly still practice cp – to be “civilised” countries…or do you really mean “white democracies” ?

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  82. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    kowtown,

    “Pendulums do swing and the liberal “rights” lobby will lose their influence.”

    True enough… but they also don’t tend to swing sometimes as well… or are you waiting for the pendulum to swing on slavery as well? women’s suffrage? religious freedom? Or perhaps things like fundamental human rights are not so much represented by pendulums, but rather evolve over time and cement themselves into the building blocks of our culture.

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  83. Northland Wahine (647 comments) says:

    I agree David…

    and while the police are harassing them…

    Seize their assets, make them non eligible for government assistance be it HNZ or a benefit. Hit them were it hurts, their pockets.

    For those who will cry “what about the kids?”, remove them from their parents care until they can act in a way acceptable to normal society.

    For those who will cry “crime will increase!” probably, for a while and harass them some more. There is no easy cure for this disease. Hit it, hit it again, and hit it again until they get the message.

    Gang life is not an acceptable objection.

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  84. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    Japan and Singapore do it and have very little of the appalling crime we have. Not saying cause and effect. The USA is not falling away, the soft cock EU type places are falling away with their debilitating human rights laws that will either result in the Balkanisation of once great nation states or civil war (some are close to it already).

    “We are all doomed’….yep you said it.

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  85. Bob R (1,335 comments) says:

    ***Japan and Singapore do it and have very little of the appalling crime we have. ***

    True, although remember East Asians have relatively low crime rates when they move to Western countries too (see pages 32-33, Walsh 2004).

    http://tinyurl.com/7wapc66

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  86. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    David Garett,

    Japan yes.

    India no. Unless you believe a country where corpses lie rotting in the streets is considered “civilized”.

    Singapore no, it limits freedom of expression quite extensively, imprisons people without trial and executes people for non-violent offenses.

    Malaysia no, again significant limits on freedom of expression, limited religious freedom, uses corporal punishment, is able to imprison without trial.

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  87. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Northland Wahine for Minister of Social Welfare…

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  88. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    My point is rather than tilting at that very far distant and problematic windmill, or others like it, we look at what CAN be done NOW…and harrassing gangs to their bare minimim size – much like radiation may not rid a person of their tumour, but reduce it to a size where they will eventually die of something else. It IS something that can be done. And something that will make a real difference.

    Thats a much better, much more realistic approach. Looking at what might be able to be done rather than fizzing at a bung that can’t be sprung.

    I’m not totally against killing people that might deserve it, I could imagine the possibility that I might support it in certain situations. But I’d be very reluctant to see the death penalty re-introduced, I hope we’re moving in a more civilised direction.

    And I’d hate to know what instant reactions to crimes, verdicts and sentencings would be in media (mainstream and social) if we had the death sentence now.

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  89. Griff (6,704 comments) says:

    The maorifirsters are attempting to reassert Maori culture.witnessed in all the programs to reintegrate gang scum etc
    This has been proven to not work.

    Maori culture is part of the problem not a cure

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  90. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    kowtow,


    Japan and Singapore do it and have very little of the appalling crime we have. Not saying cause and effect.

    So why say it?

    For me, I consider the execution of people, in Singapore, for non-violent offenses to be a crime in and of itself. I don’t believe something abhorrent becomes okay simply because the government does it in the name of the people.

    But this is pointless. To me liberal values represent the heart of civilization. It’s not economic might or tall buildings. China has such things but it’s still a prison for most.

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  91. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Weihana: Ask you yourself this question (with regard to all the countries you mention) “Would I be concerned for the safety of my 20 year old daughter walking around the entertainment centre of a city in X at midnight?”

    If your answer to that is “No” regarding NZ, I suggest you talk to any cop who patrols down town auckland on Saturday night/sunday morning…

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  92. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    Christ people talking ‘Human Rights’ and ‘Civil Liberties’ make me fucking sick- This piece of human excrement bashed unconscious and raped a five year old girl…Have you hand-wringers lost touch of that fact??
    There are people on this planet who society must be protected from-This scum is one of them…
    I don’t give a shit if lefties think he can be ‘rehabilitated’ or what his ‘Marae’ think they can do for him- My concern is that in five years or so odds are that someone elses child is going to be attacked by this predator…he should be locked away for the term of his natural life or (even better) exterminated like the dangerous animal he is.

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  93. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Peter G: You assume that cp is inherently “uncivilized”; I disagree. As Albert Pierrepoint, the most famous British hangman of the 20th century said, with him the condemned got treated with compassion and dignity…a great deal more than many of his “clients” accorded their victims. and it was all over in less than 20 seconds…his record from his entry into the condemned cell to dead on the rope was 7.5 seconds.

    but I can tell you what the reaction would be to SENTENCES of death in 21st century New Zealand, which is in large part why I no longer advocate reintroduction, even for our worst killers. We would have mobs of Green and Maori Party type clowns in the street mourning and wailing in support of people like Graeme Burton and William Bell…people for whom even they don’t publicly claim to be victims themselves when they get sent down for 25 or 30 years.

    At trial stage, we would get the same clowns on juries, purjuring themselves by saying they could find a person guilty if a death sentence could be the result, even though they had no intention at all of bringing in a guilty verdict, regardless of the evidence. thus we would have what lawyers call “perverse verdicts” all the time, with the result that we would get people who richly deserved long sentences for murder in fact getting much shorter sentences for manslaughter.

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  94. eszett (2,332 comments) says:

    but I can tell you what the reaction would be to SENTENCES of death in 21st century New Zealand, which is in large part why I no longer advocate reintroduction, even for our worst killers. We would have mobs of Green and Maori Party type clowns in the street mourning and wailing in support of people like Graeme Burton and William Bell…

    So the Greens and the Maori Party caused you to change your mind?
    There may be hope for you after all

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  95. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # David Garrett (934) Says:
    March 1st, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    Weihana: Ask you yourself this question (with regard to all the countries you mention) “Would I be concerned for the safety of my 20 year old daughter walking around the entertainment centre of a city in X at midnight?”

    If your answer to that is “No” regarding NZ, I suggest you talk to any cop who patrols down town auckland on Saturday night/sunday morning…

    Too many variables to consider such as whether unaccompanied or with friends, my daughter’s (if I had one) level of maturity, whether drugs and alcohol are consumed etc… Suffice to say that on a relative basis I think one would be safer in an Asian city such as Singapore, Tokyo or Shanghai.

    I think this reflects the nature of the people rather than their governments, and particularly with a government like that in China, the criminals are the one’s in charge and being able to walk down a street at midnight in relative safety is little comfort when one’s entire life must be lived under the watchful eye of a dictatorship.

    Moreover, all we are talking about here is relative safety. I don’t consider downtown Auckland to be particularly unsafe. An individual probably has a higher chance of being in a motor vehicle accident than getting into serious trouble (unless of course they are the one’s instigating the trouble). Cops may disagree, but I live in central Auckland and every weekend I see countless young girls being stupid, wearing slutty outfits, getting intoxicated, and getting home safely. Not that I don’t advocate precautions, just saying it’s not as dire as one might imagine. Rapists are not lurking around every corner.

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  96. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    weihana

    So why say it? But this is pointless.Exact right.

    You talk of liberal values at the heart of civilisation and in that regard you are right.

    It was the liberal societies of the west that gave us our most cherished freedoms.Not long ago they all had the death penalty. Since the ’60′s a relentless march of marxist /socialist ideas have striven to destroy the freedoms and values of liberal society and that piece of shit at Turangi is the embodiment of that march and its success in a once largely crime free and proud country.

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  97. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    eszett: very droll. No; four years living and working in Tonga changed my mind. After the last hangings there in 1982 (cp remains on the books as a discretionary sentence for murder) there were no convictions for murder for 20 years…Note I didn’t say “no murders”; there were many, and some of them bloody gruesome. But mainly because of the influence of the Churches, jurors were not willing to bring in verdicts of guilty to murder, even in the clearest cases.

    For quite different reasons, the same thing would undoubtedly happen here: Catherine Delahunty John Minto Hone and Sue Bradford parading along Queens street lamenting some poor unfortunate Maori condemned to death – no matter how deserved the sentence.

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  98. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Longknives (769) Says:
    March 1st, 2012 at 3:13 pm

    Christ people talking ‘Human Rights’ and ‘Civil Liberties’ make me fucking sick-

    Human rights and civil liberties should always be discussed even when considering the worst type of person. Because the same rules that apply to the worst of us, also apply to the rest of us. How the government acts in one instance sets a precedent for how it will act in other situations.

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  99. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    To the paedophile apologists (sorry to the otherwise gentlemanly, but if you call soft on paedophiles…yada yada….a reduction in sentence is suitable is suitable due to age and remorse yada yada), consider this: She was probably only one elbow in the face away from death. Four and 1/2 hours is a very long operation to have for anything but a life threatening head injury.
    It was only by accident she didn’t die. Think of the legacy of horror that surrounds cases like Karla Cardno, This is similar, but he was busted by the Mum. The reports show she found him on top of the girl; he got off and fled. No remorse.
    One elbow in the head. He should get a similar sentence to an outright murderer in an ideal world.
    What have we become that we get fooled by animals.Animals that rape kill and hide bodies. Unless of course they are busted in the act, in which case, age, previous life experience and early displays of remorse get reduced sentences.
    I would suggest the problems in society are not solely down to women breeding beyond their means.
    If this type of sentence reduction is what happens, due to our Clark era hug-a-crim policy there is a lot of inmates walking around, vulnerable communities; the judges can’t keep them inside.

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  100. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    “Because the same rules that apply to the worst of us, also apply to the rest of us”

    The rest of us havn’t raped and nearly killed a helpless child-This is sub-human behaviour.
    Can you even begin to comprehend this?? Or are you just going to continue to smugly spout ‘civil liberties’ in this creatures defence??

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  101. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Monique – how many ‘animals’ do you think should be taken out of circulation?
    What degree of potential risk to society should determine if they are taken out or not?
    At what age should it happen? As soon as someone can be determined they are a possible risk?

    If Marino had been been profiled when he was five he would probably have been flagged as a potential risk.

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  102. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Monique Watson: Well said. The animal who tortured and killed Karla comes up for parole every year now. Eventually he will get out, and my sources tell me he has exactly the same attitudes about white women (yes, I know, Karla was just 14) as he had all those years ago.

    And Karla’s stepdad ends up inside for saying what most fathers would think, if not actually say, should be done to the killer of their loved child. At least that led directly to the formation of SST which has achieved so much…

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  103. dime (9,368 comments) says:

    The parents deserve a bullet.

    Personally i look at the pics of this kid the facebook pics and its hard not to feel sadness. The whole situation is just fucked.

    God knows how we stop churning out these people.

    As for this kid – 10 years isnt enough. But 20 years wouldnt be either. There is no way he isnt going to reoffend when next out. The best we can hope for is he keep his offending between himself and other future gang members.

    Course, the chances of getting out one day, hooking up with some pig and molesting her kid are freaking high. And so the cycle continues.

    God knows what ya do with him. I keep coming back to “mercy killing” so i guess its best i dont make the decisions!

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  104. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Pete G: You raise a very valid point, and one we as a society are sooner or later going to have to grapple with…Despite rearguard actions from civil libertarians and Green Party types we will eventually be able to predict with a fair degree of certainty whether a five year old is likely to become a Bell or a Burton. And what the hell do we do with that knowledge? I have no better answer to that question than anyone else…

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  105. Scott Chris (5,870 comments) says:

    Jack says:- “you are arguing the old line that environment determines all crime.”

    No I don’t. I do argue that environment is a heavily influential factor in defining outcomes, and there is a wealth of scientific research which backs up that assertion. I don’t need to rely on ideological dogma to do my thinking for me so your allusions to socialism and Marxism are irrelevant. Like most sensible people I attempt to assess things objectively and look for the most practical solutions and frequently modify my outlook as better ideas come up.

    Marino appears to have psychopathic tendencies characterized by a complete lack of empathy which is most likely genetic. In a large population you’ll inevitably get psychopaths, however put them in an abusive environment with corrupted cultural values and the resultant “monster” is a foregone conclusion.

    Might pay to critique my reasoning rather than my imagined political leanings – if you can.

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  106. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # kowtow (1,564) Says:
    March 1st, 2012 at 3:32 pm

    weihana

    So why say it? But this is pointless.Exact right.

    You talk of liberal values at the heart of civilisation and in that regard you are right.

    It was the liberal societies of the west that gave us our most cherished freedoms.Not long ago they all had the death penalty. Since the ’60′s a relentless march of marxist /socialist ideas have striven to destroy the freedoms and values of liberal society and that piece of shit at Turangi is the embodiment of that march and its success in a once largely crime free and proud country.

    New Zealand is probably more liberal now than it’s ever been. There are far fewer regulations and restrictions on trade now than there was in the 60s so I’m not sure what you mean by references to “socialist” ideas.

    I think it’s pointless trying to ascribe one individual crime like this to broad social trends, but considering crime in general the fault in my view lies largely with the Narcotics Act 1965 and subsequently the Misuse of Drugs Act both of which were designed to implement international treaties designed to combat drugs and which reflected the prohibitionist approach of Nixon’s “War on drugs”.

    It’s little more than a repeat of alcohol prohibition in the United States with the same consequences. Gangs are empowered through the black market leading to increased rates of crime whilst the laws themselves have little effect on usage.

    But for some reason the obvious economic connection between drug prohibition and increased crime is dismissed for more plausible explanations such as homosexuals and sex education. Such is the wisdom of conservatives, or lack thereof.

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  107. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Despite rearguard actions from civil libertarians and Green Party types we will eventually be able to predict with a fair degree of certainty whether a five year old is likely to become a Bell or a Burton. And what the hell do we do with that knowledge?

    Especially if the degree of ‘certainty’ is something like “they have a 75% chance of not being a violent criminal”. We can’t predict the future and will only ever be able to do it on probabilities. Even siblings can go in quite different directions.

    And even when the statistics become closer to certain there’s some interesting considerations, like “Marino has a 80% chance of being hounded by media and the public when released, which will result in a 90% chance he won’t normalise and therefore will reoffend”.

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  108. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “To me liberal values represent the heart of civilization.”

    Liberal “values” are the cancer in the heart of civilisation. Young boys are raping 5 year olds BECAUSE we have had decades of liberal “values”. Liberalism deliberately creates an environment of moral anarchy, of anything goes because its just a “lifestyle choice”. The result is plain to see all around us, every day.

    Why could a family leave their house unlocked in the fifties and be pretty sure it would not be burgled? Traditional values.

    Why would no sane person do so today? Liberal values.

    Liberalism is the disease. Traditionalism is the cure.

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  109. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # Longknives (770) Says:
    March 1st, 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Or are you just going to continue to smugly spout ‘civil liberties’ in this creatures defence??

    I haven’t defended him retard. In fact at the very beginning I argued the starting point for sentencing was too short.

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  110. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Lee01,


    Young boys are raping 5 year olds BECAUSE we have had decades of liberal “values”.

    So true Lee. This boy raped a child because gays are getting married.

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  111. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “So true Lee. This boy raped a child because gays are getting married.”

    In part, yes. If you break down the moral boundaries in one place, they begin to break down everywhere. Liberals do not understand this because, despite it being blindingly obvious, they refuse to admit that decades of liberal attacks on traditional values have created an environment in which crimes like this grow. The chickens have well and truly come home to roost, but Liberals don’t want to smell the shit they have created and admit they got it wrong, badly wrong.

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  112. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    wehana at base gets back to illegal narcotics.The misuse of which had a part in this appalling crime.

    Gangs are not empowered by our laws. They abuse the laws we have to enrich themselves and destroy others. Again this Turangi case is pertinent. Gangs didn’t disappear in the US when prohibition ended they simply moved on to other illegal activity. and the same thing would happen in weihanas ideal world of decriminalising drugs. The thugs would find something else to terrorise and destroy with.

    Such is the wisdom of utopians,or lack thereof.

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  113. Bob R (1,335 comments) says:

    ***And what the hell do we do with that knowledge? I have no better answer to that question than anyone else…***

    Pay them to move to Africa.

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  114. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    kowtow (1,565) Says:
    March 1st, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    wehana at base gets back to illegal narcotics.The misuse of which had a part in this appalling crime.

    Including alcohol. So I take it you favour outlawing alcohol because it makes people rape? FFS, the cannabis and alcohol didn’t incite him to rape it simply watered down his judgment to the point that the animal, created by a life of violence and sexual abuse, was released.


    Gangs are not empowered by our laws. They abuse the laws we have to enrich themselves and destroy others. Again this Turangi case is pertinent. Gangs didn’t disappear in the US when prohibition ended they simply moved on to other illegal activity. and the same thing would happen in weihanas ideal world of decriminalising drugs. The thugs would find something else to terrorise and destroy with.

    Such is the wisdom of utopians,or lack thereof.

    I never said decriminalization would make them disappear. But it would LESSEN their effect. Prohibition in the US empowered the gangs so much that they had corrupted government at virtually all levels starting with the cop on the street who doesn’t want to arrest his friends. The same principle applies to the war on drugs just to a somewhat lesser degree since other drugs are not consumed as widely as the public’s favourite drug, alcohol.

    But I never said gangs would disappear. Indeed gangs existed before prohibition and they will always thrive on theft and other activities. But outlawing drugs which the public demands gives them a huge and unnecessary financial windfall which empowers them far beyond traditional nefarious activities and which leads to the increase in crime we have observed since Nixon’s war began.

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  115. Scott Chris (5,870 comments) says:

    Lee

    What you don’t seem to realize is that if everyone was a liberal, the world would be a much better place to live in.

    Compare that with a world full of competing theocracies all fighting to impose their brand of “absolute truth”

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  116. DJP6-25 (1,268 comments) says:

    kowtow 2:13 pm. Yes, the pendulum will swing one fine day. Imagine a day when any pinko socialist opinion is viewed with the same disgust and derision as the views of their ‘white power’ cousins. After all, prior to November 1989, the majority of people thought the Berlin Wall would not come down in their life times. Where is it now?

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  117. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    Weihana- “Retard”?? Resorting to childish name calling suggests you have very little in the way of comeback and is typical of someone who is clearly losing an argument…

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  118. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    And there you have it folks, weihana and Armadinajacket on the same page.

    All the worlds’ ills laid at the foot of the evil white Satan in the Oval office. Gosh it’s that simple,who’da thunk?

    Yep this is a waste of time.

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  119. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Lee01,


    …liberal attacks on traditional values have created an environment in which crimes like this grow…

    …Liberals don’t want to smell the shit they have created and admit they got it wrong, badly wrong.

    Another astute observation from Lee. Graham Capill is a liberal creation!

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  120. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    dpj6

    And alot of the people who didn’t want it to come down now call themselves Green.

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  121. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Longknives,

    I responded with name calling AND rebuttal. :)

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  122. Elaycee (4,297 comments) says:

    Weihana says: “In which case eligibility for parole would be the discount, so in principle I’m not sure I see the difference. However, removing parole is not helpful in my view as it removes any incentive to improve character behind bars.”

    Oh, bollocks.

    Eligibility to apply for parole is not a discount from any sentence – it’s only an eligibility to apply. If the Parole Board says “no” then there is no release at all.

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  123. Jack5 (4,569 comments) says:

    Pete George posted at 3.46:

    If Marino had been been profiled when he was five he would probably have been flagged as a potential risk…

    If Pete George had been profiled when he was five, he would probably have been saved from a life of mental confusion.

    Scott Chris posted at 4.01:

    In a large population you’ll inevitably get psychopaths, however put them in an abusive environment with corrupted cultural values and the resultant “monster” is a foregone conclusion.

    What’s the evidence for your suggestion that the environment triggers psychopaths, Scott Chris? You may be in a tiny minority with the Corrections Department psychologist who was seeking big funding for research into reforming psychopaths when most international evidence is that they can’t be changed.

    And Scott Chris further:

    …Like most sensible people I …

    Don’t be so modest. Don’t hide your light under a bushel, SC.

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  124. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    kowtow,


    # kowtow (1,567) Says:
    March 1st, 2012 at 4:54 pm

    And there you have it folks, weihana and Armadinajacket on the same page.

    I think you’ll find he has more in common with Lee.


    All the worlds’ ills

    No no no. Just one ill: contributing to the increase in crime observed in the latter half of the 20th century.


    laid at the foot of the evil white Satan in the Oval office.

    White?

    Actually I don’t blame any president, even Nixon. It is the people who deserve blame for being too stupid to learn the lessons of history and the unintended consequences that will eventuate from prohibiting drugs which a significant portion of the community demands.


    Gosh it’s that simple,who’da thunk?

    Well not Lee. He can see through the smoke and mirrors to see the real culprit: homosexuals and masturbators!


    Yep this is a waste of time.

    Of course. :)

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  125. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    Things aren’t going so well for you Weihana…Still waiting for that rebuttal! Or did it go over my “Retarded” head??
    (I’d have thought a deluded criminal-hugging leftie like you wouldn’t make a disgusting insult to our intellectually handicapped community like that, but hey- you take the higher ground eh??)

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  126. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Elaycee,


    Eligibility to apply for parole is not a discount from any sentence – it’s only an eligibility to apply. If the Parole Board says “no” then there is no release at all.

    Fair enough, but it is still questionable whether this will result in early guilty pleas which avoid the need for victims to go through a trial and if they don’t then we not only force victims through the trauma of a trial but we also forego the ability to parole criminals and so an offender goes from the environment of prison straight to the outside world with no supervision. Seems unsafe.

    As I said if the sentence is ultimately too short then increase the starting point.

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  127. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Longknives,


    Or did it go over my “Retarded” head??

    Obviously.

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  128. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    and the unintended consequences that will eventuate from prohibiting drugs which a significant portion of the community demands”

    There it is!! Legalise Cannabis and the World’s problems will be solved! I’m pissing myself with laughter at this drug-addled deluded character…I bet it cures cancer as well eh??

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  129. Elaycee (4,297 comments) says:

    Weihana says: “if the sentence is ultimately too short then increase the starting point.”

    No quibbles from me if the sentences are toughened. After all, we had a major referendum on it once and the bleeding hearts suddenly decided that the ~95% of the population who called for tougher sentences, must somehow have it wrong….

    But lets start with a tougher sentence for an arsehole who rapes and tries to murder a 5 year old.

    How about a Remington?

    Cue the panty waists in 3…, 2…, 1….

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  130. Griff (6,704 comments) says:

    Legalise pot and strangle their income and their networks.
    At least a totally stoned no hoper will sit there smiling and get the munchies.
    A pissed one will go and do the strangest things like rape, kill,maim and destroy
    Spend the money from a tax on pot on education
    look how well drunk-driving has been demonized
    Drugs are a health problem not a criminal one

    Gangs are a criminal problem not a social one
    Who cares if you hang around with a bunch of like minded friends it becomes different when your like minded friends idea is to cause mayhem
    Non association orders to all who are identified as involved in a criminal organization
    Heavily enforced
    This tactic has as worked for the scooter trash in Aus and the USA
    Use it here to crush the mongrels

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  131. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    WTF is wrong with me, I just spent 10 mins scrolling back and forward to see who called who a retard and why. And who did the mastie call? Do liberals and gays masturbate more than the god fearing, somehow pushing the earth off it’s axis?

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  132. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    Look how well drunk driving demonized.

    I don’t think so. Every time I read the court notices it looks like there’s shit loads of it going on.What a waste of police and court time. The war on drink drivers has been a failure.
    The government should introduce a scheme to drive these people around,we could be heavily taxed to offset the costs.It should be a harm minimisation and health issue,not for the criminal justice system.

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  133. Pete George (22,754 comments) says:

    Elaycee, I’m fairly sure sentences have been toughened over the last decade or so, hence the trend of increased numbers in prison.

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  134. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Longknives


    Legalise Cannabis and the World’s problems will be solved!

    What I actually said was that the war on drugs contributed to an increase in crime. But you seem to have a problem with addressing the substance of what people are saying and prefer to respond to straw men – first that I defended the rapist and second that I believe ending the war on drugs will solve all the worlds ills.

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  135. Scott Chris (5,870 comments) says:

    Jack says:- “What’s the evidence for your suggestion that the environment triggers….”

    I’d never suggest that environment triggers psychopathy. Chances are psychopaths are evenly distributed throughout society’s strata.

    :arrow: “Psychopathy can be defined as an extreme lack of empathy or remorse, false emotions, selfishness, grandiosity or deceptiveness. It can also involve impulsiveness, irritability, aggression, or inability to perceive danger and protect one’s self.”

    Fact is, we all have empathy, remorse, false emotions, selfishness, grandiosity, impulsiveness, irritability, aggression, inability to perceive danger etc, all in differing measures, so in a large population sample you are going to get all kinds of combinations and extremes of these psychological traits.

    The occurrence of psychopathy in a large population sample is a statistical inevitability which requires no trigger. No two psychopaths are the same, and they are only classified as such according to where they sit on a psychological continuum.

    So you take one of these statistical freaks, factor in an abusive and dysfunctional environment, and what are you likely to get?

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  136. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    kowtow,


    I don’t think so. Every time I read the court notices it looks like there’s shit loads of it going on.What a waste of police and court time. The war on drink drivers has been a failure.
    The government should introduce a scheme to drive these people around,we could be heavily taxed to offset the costs.It should be a harm minimisation and health issue,not for the criminal justice system.

    Sarcasm noted.

    Ignorance of implied argument also noted. A person high on cannabis is no more a danger to the general public than a person drunk on alcohol. Indeed by any objective measure the latter is far more costly to society. Comparing either a drunk or a stoner to an unsafe driver is an invalid comparison.

    Moreover, prohibiting drugs doesn’t lessen the harm the drugs cause, they contribute to the harm. Stopping people for drunk driving does not contribute to the harm.

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  137. Monique Watson (1,062 comments) says:

    PG I can tell you when they need to be pulled out of the system. When they have a man’s strength and use it to offend. Around the age of 12 onwards. Look at Bailey K. And you can’t remove someone from circulation based on potential risk or forever unless they go onto reoffend. Take them out at the first serious offence and keep the cell warm.
    You can tell right from wrong from the age of 5. Before that, any number of them are prone to smearing shit or squishing insects. Five is the perfect age to intervene because the next two years are when they get the voice in the head that tells them who is the boss. They establish pecking orders. If this process is interfered with, you end up with killer 12 year olds. After that they don’t change unless they are saved by ultimate boss JC.
    What we have is a generation of killers. they need to be taken out and the nancy 2002 laws overturned. I remember when this legislation came in.
    I thought, isn’t that lovely all we need to do is give “them” a second chance. Well, I know this from cases in the papers and from personal experience that giving “them” a second chance gives them another victim.
    Intervening starts at birth Every child, needs to be registered with a parenting course provider. Everyone who chooses not to take up this opportunity gets regular checks every six months by CYFS. And not the rubbish tarts who can’t tell what goes on; the Crusher variety that will remove the child faster than you can say: “Simon Powers Exit Survey”.

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  138. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    I noted earlier in this thread David G’s comment:
    “It is not entirely the Judges’ fault. They are to a very large degree hamstrung by the provisions of the Sentencing Act 2002 – a Clark era piece of legislation.”
    Now Monique has chimed in with:
    “What we have is a generation of killers. they need to be taken out and the nancy 2002 laws overturned. I remember when this legislation came in.”
    I’d be fascinated to know what part of the Sentencing Act reduced sentences.

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  139. Leaping Jimmy (15,917 comments) says:

    Pete George: Heaping hate on the heinous may let off peripheral steam but it does nothing to douse the heat on the boiler.

    and

    cows4me: Why not lay the blame for this crime on the years of liberal soft cocked politically correct governments that believe they are right and we are wrong. Why not blame the welfare systems that give free range for these people to breed like flys while the rest of society must pay more and more because the system is fucked up? Why not blame the liberal hair brained education system that called for the end of corporal punishment, then they moan because chaos reins? Why not blame the justice system that simply plays lip service to crimes like this? Why not blame the penal system when scum like this can expect colour TV and a heated prison cell, whatever happened to hard labour or chain gangs? Why not blame the totally fucking mad academics that have elevated Maori culture and are happy to promote the noble savage role while brushing aside many of the negative aspects of this cultrue.[sic]

    and

    Jack5: The sick people are those who would blame everything else and everyone-else for a person’s evil actions and evil choices. Why don’t these trendy fuckwits read Dostoevsky? Or read a little moral philosophy? If this too hard, why can’t they just consider the hundreds of thousands of people who have been abused, or suffer social handicaps, but who don’t commit horrific crimes. The tens of thousands of decent people who choose not to inflict on others what was done to them?

    Wow. These three comments to me get right to the nub of the issue (I stopped reading after Jack’s and I’m sure others have made similar above too.

    The nub is: how come we don’t drop the emotional anger (which is incompatible with justice) but hold the righteous anger and use the latter to get right to heart of the root causes, admirably summed up by our new colleague cows4me.

    What is wrong with us as a society that we don’t tell the idiot academics in charge of hugs and kisses to get the fuck out of town and instead employ academics who will teach people how to get to the truth, regardless of whether or not it “offends people” or “human wights?” It’s the politically correct poison which has infested not just academia but govt which has led us to this point whereby we as a society tolerate the “heat on the boiler” because doing otherwise would be vewy vewy offensive indeed.

    It’s way past time (about 30 years past) to kick out all the hand wringers from their powerful positions (and they are legion) and take back right (as in “correct”) thinking and use our vast modern understanding of human psychology to, without anger, eliminate with extreme prejudice those attitudes we have allowed to manifest in society which has produced this little prick and many others like him. It’s not, quite frankly, his fault. He’s a product of his upbringing. It’s out fault, as a society, to have tolerated people like his family, to be able to act as they have, without intervening. It’s our fault, for not telling the lefties to get fucked and go to hell, the minute they tried to implement their poison in society, which they started doing 3 generations ago. We either accept it, in the name of “human wights,” or we kick ass. And if we decide the latter, it’s not this perp’s arse who needs kicking, it’s those who have designed society awound human wights so poisonous behaviour like his could manifest itself in the first place.

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  140. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    Maaaareeees

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  141. Leaping Jimmy (15,917 comments) says:

    It’s not Maori, Muzza. It’s how we’ve treated them, first by conquering a warrior race and then by humiliating them. How else would you expect a whole race who had those genes to behave?

    While everyone needs to take responsibility for their own lives, how come we see exactly what’s happened to our Maori brethren happen also to the Aborginals, the American and Canadian Indians and the native Hawaiians?

    Think that’s a coincidence?

    Societal attitudes have to be understood and analysed in the context of history, and the more you’re looking at a people whose attitudes are sourced from great great great great generations the more one has to factor that in to what one is looking at today.

    The downfall of Europeans is we don’t understand that inter-generational connexion, since Europeans are much more individualistic and much less familial, but you can see it everywhere in all other races, be they Asian, Indian, Polynesian or anything else. The mistake Europeans make, is to look at that as “primitive” which is quite wrong, for it’s actually what we should be like, more and more. But modern society mitigates against that.

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  142. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    Well Jimmy I think we can safely conclude that inter-breeding has not been a great success. As for warrior race and humiliation, you can go and get fucked. They are a conquered “race” and should behave as such.

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  143. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    And by the way Jimmy I live in the Philippines 10 months of the year. I am pretty familiar with the collectivist culture. I happen to support not only my own family but a bunch of relatives too. Incidentally the Philippine people love and nurture their children to the extent they are able (and there are no benefit cheques in the post), why can’t Maaaareeees do the same?

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  144. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Mikey: Read the bloody Act son…Dont be such a lazy bastard.

    Monique: You are not a friend or colleague of my mate Northland Wahine are you?? If CYFS and WINZ were run by women like you two I’d wager things would change pretty smartly.

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  145. mikenmild (10,618 comments) says:

    I’m not the one saying how weak it is – you could be specific if you meant to imply that the government weakened sentencing laws in 2002. Maybe you meant something else, it’s hard to tell.

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  146. Longknives (4,411 comments) says:

    “It’s how we’ve treated them, first by conquering a warrior race ..”

    Wah,Wah…what a load of absolute drivel…was this mongrel channelling his brave ‘warrior’ ancestors as he attacked this little girl was he? Christ help me..

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  147. Griff (6,704 comments) says:

    By your logic LJ the English would be the most downtrodden race in the world

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  148. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    Longknives, it is a distinct possibility that he was channelling his ancestors.

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  149. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    Did we find out who abused Marino, if he was abused? Or do we just let that ride, send a message out that’s it’s fine, let the bros keep their secrets and do more damage. I’d like to know the answer to that.

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  150. Leaping Jimmy (15,917 comments) says:

    Muzza and Longknives, you don’t seem to have read my 7:23. Suggest you do.

    They are a conquered “race” and should behave as such.

    Tell me Muzza, if the Japanese had successfully invaded in 1942 and now all the street signs and language and govt institutions and laws etc etc etc were all overwhelmingly Japanese based not to mention we were only 14% of the population the rest being Japanese and up to the time of our grandparents, the only jobs we were entitled to were those our Japanese masters determined we could have, etc etc, how would we feel and how would have turned out as a race and as a people, if this was 2150 instead of 2012 and we’d had 170 years of said treatment?

    And BTW, the Philippines has never experienced that, have they.

    Wah,Wah…what a load of absolute drivel…

    Longknives, it’s not an excuse and I’m not excusing. That was the whole point of my 7:32. I’m simply saying if you want to resolve it, you need to look at it as it happened and that means facts, plain, bald and simple. Many of those facts lead to the rightful questions of how can any history possibly justify this act and the answer is, they can’t. But it’s not justification that is the point here for it can’t be, it’s understanding how it all came to pass, which is the real and only point and if you think a group of people, a large segment of people, today, who act like this guy, have no reason to act like they do other than they’re simply evil, then your analytical skills aren’t very good, I’m afraid to say.

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  151. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    Jimmy, I was born in 1962, if The Japanese had taken over I wouldn’t know any different from the life they would had “imposed” on me. I sure as hell wouldn’t be bitching about the life I could have had if they hadn’t taken us over, because what would I know of what life was before the Japanese invaded (assuming I was ever born in the first place).
    And the Philippines has been conquered firstly by the Spanish, less overtly by the Americans, and during the second world war by, shock horror, the Japanese. So yes the Philippine people have experienced a shit load, but they don’t have the victim mentality of the Maaaareees.

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  152. Muzza M (290 comments) says:

    And we didn’t take thier land, we bought it, and we are still fucking paying for it. Longest lay-by agreement in the time of mankind.

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  153. kowtow (7,584 comments) says:

    leaping jimmy

    How come you keep referring to the Maoris as a warrior race with some kind of uncontrollable genetic predisposition to engage in war/violence etc while the real warrior race is surely the race that conquered and vanquished the Maoris?
    Surely it is the european with the genes for warfare and conquest, and by your logic it is the Euros who should be doing all the violence.

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  154. Leaping Jimmy (15,917 comments) says:

    Jimmy, I was born in 1962

    Muzza the Phillipines may have been overrun for temporary periods in their long history but by and large they have kept their cohesion as a people, with self rule. This isn’t what happened to Maori or many other indigenous people. The same thing as happened to the Filipinos also happened to the Indians during the British Raj but they were too big to be absorbed and ultimately threw off their colonial shackles.

    But neither the filipino nor the Indian situation has happened here, not by any stretch.

    If you’ve read any of my comments over the years, you’ll know I’m a fan of accountability and individual responsibility. And it’s no different here. It’s just we’re never going to change what’s been happening to our Maori cousins if we do nothing but condemn them on the basis of thinking they have had the same history as the rest of us have. They haven’t, simple as that. And that history doesn’t totally but does go a long way toward explaining why it is we have tens of thousands of families exactly like the one who produced this boy. Sure, they themselves have a lot to answer for themselves in terms of their self indulgence and failing to avail themselves of all the opportunities we as a society have made available to them. And I don’t suggest at all we as a society should ignore any of that. This is not an either-or equation. But failing to recognise that history as a factor in any way, is a mistake, if we want real change. If we want things to carry on as they are indeed get much much worse over time, then by all means, ignore the history. And if we do that we will continue to reap the whirlwind accordingly.

    Personally that’s not what I call a wise course of action.

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  155. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Nostalgia: You make a very good point, and one which has often occurred to me..how do we ever KNOW the “Uncle Charlie buggered me regularly” claim is true, especially when Uncle Charlie is often conveniently dead? I know a little of how criminal lawyers work…I would be very surprised if some – certainly not all – didnt “suggest” that if the client “remembered” some sexual abuse in his childhood it could be quite useful at sentencing…I have certainly worked at firms where the family lawyers openly led clients into swearing affidavits alleging domestic violence which almost certainly hadn’t occurred…

    And how the hell did this thread get onto whether the Maoris were more put upon than the Filipinos??

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  156. Northland Wahine (647 comments) says:

    I’m not going to deny that Maori have this warrior gene. We carry it and now we need to control and adjust it. Because if we don’t, we will continue to headline the news for all the wrong reasons.

    What I’m interested in hearing and maybe some obliging liberal will respond, under Maori law/tradition, how would they have responded if this child’s parents had demanded Utu? Or do Maori get to pick and choose noble traditions according to what Maori feel is relevant or beneficial to Maori.

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  157. Griff (6,704 comments) says:

    pre contact tradition a child was considered to be under the protection of the maternal side of the family .
    This protection was not necessarily afforded to the mother.
    If a child was mistreated it was the maternal sides utu to balance the unjustice

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  158. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Griff: Are you Maori? I mean a real one, like Northland Wahine? If so, where does this information you impart come from? Because Wahine tells me this “the missionaries taught us to beat the kids” theory is just the latest bullshit excuse…

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  159. Griff (6,704 comments) says:

    No I am not I just read a lot of the early published accounts from pre 1840 in an effort to understand the treaty better.
    Utu would have been extracted At a guess you would demand that he was handed over to the maternal family alive for a little old time reconsidering of his actions. if he lived he would probably be a slave till invited to diner
    Maori life was short brutal and harsh pre contact.

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  160. Nostalgia-NZ (4,898 comments) says:

    David Garrett
    10.36

    I was looking at it not only from the point of view as to whether it (the abuse) was true or not, but also if it was, that provided a good reason for intervention here. If there is an offender, he or she has got the big message, ‘it’s okay’ which encourage them to do the same again and maybe create another Marino. I think the Courts and police should have a active interest in this type of claim, the result of following them up would be more productive than not doing so. Even to the point of delaying sentencing while it was looked into and possibly getting this youth’s co-operation toward a conviction of the adult offender.
    Inaction, is a green light to abusers.

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  161. David Garrett (6,333 comments) says:

    Griff: I’m sorry, I misunderstood your meaning…I too have read widely both regarding the pre and post contact period…I dont disagree with anything you say.

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  162. Northland Wahine (647 comments) says:

    Griff… Exactly. Of course our Maori academics would and have told us otherwise.

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