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	<title>Comments on: Using science for good</title>
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	<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html</link>
	<description>DPF&#039;s Kiwiblog - Fomenting Happy Mischief since 2003</description>
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		<title>By: Chuck Bird</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-953079</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Bird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 03:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-953079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;This is an excellent way to do policy, with a robust science based approach.&quot;

Like promoting the global warming scam.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is an excellent way to do policy, with a robust science based approach.&#8221;</p>
<p>Like promoting the global warming scam.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-953059</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 01:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-953059</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just to highlight further the absurdity of this claimed value, at $4M per life, Pharmac should be prepared to fund a lifetime of drugs at say 5% of this = $200K per annum for every patient who needs it.  It isn&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to highlight further the absurdity of this claimed value, at $4M per life, Pharmac should be prepared to fund a lifetime of drugs at say 5% of this = $200K per annum for every patient who needs it.  It isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-953052</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 01:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-953052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@plum, it&#039;s ludicrous unscientific crap, typical of bureaucracies and some &quot;social science&quot; ghettos.  And it isn&#039;t &quot;willingness to pay&quot;.  It&#039;s willingness to speculate blind about spending other people&#039;s money and then average the results.  Farcical.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@plum, it&#8217;s ludicrous unscientific crap, typical of bureaucracies and some &#8220;social science&#8221; ghettos.  And it isn&#8217;t &#8220;willingness to pay&#8221;.  It&#8217;s willingness to speculate blind about spending other people&#8217;s money and then average the results.  Farcical.</p>
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		<title>By: plum</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952962</link>
		<dc:creator>plum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952962</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Alan Wilkinson - the &#039;willingness to pay&#039; methodology is used all over the Western world by governments.  The value in NZ for a statistical life is about half what the USA government calculates it at.  So if anything, ours is undervalued rather than overvalued.  The whole point is that it is social costs - ie. intangible costs such as pain and suffering.  It is always going to be difficult to measure such things, but an attempt should be made to capture them, otherwise, you understate the case for intervention.  The costs you describe - lost productivity etc are just economic costs.  These aspects are included in MoT&#039;s methodology as well.  

@Eszett - basically there&#039;s a whole body of literature on the subject going back to the 60&#039;s, that better qualified people than Alan Wilkinson have turned their minds to, and the &#039;willingness to pay&#039; methodology is the best proxy anyone has come up with so far to capture the full dimensions of the worth of a human life.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alan Wilkinson &#8211; the &#8216;willingness to pay&#8217; methodology is used all over the Western world by governments.  The value in NZ for a statistical life is about half what the USA government calculates it at.  So if anything, ours is undervalued rather than overvalued.  The whole point is that it is social costs &#8211; ie. intangible costs such as pain and suffering.  It is always going to be difficult to measure such things, but an attempt should be made to capture them, otherwise, you understate the case for intervention.  The costs you describe &#8211; lost productivity etc are just economic costs.  These aspects are included in MoT&#8217;s methodology as well.  </p>
<p>@Eszett &#8211; basically there&#8217;s a whole body of literature on the subject going back to the 60&#8242;s, that better qualified people than Alan Wilkinson have turned their minds to, and the &#8216;willingness to pay&#8217; methodology is the best proxy anyone has come up with so far to capture the full dimensions of the worth of a human life.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952921</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 09:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952921</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[eszett, I don&#039;t believe it measures anything real and certainly nothing worth using in a cost-benefit analysis that is expected to be taken seriously.

The value of a life to the community is presumably the NPV of future earnings and unpaid contributions less costs.  For some people that is a lot and for others it is negative.  Essentially it is unknowable.

From the point of view of Government expenditure they can look at the available money and find the most quality of life - years they can save with that money.  In other words, compare the costs of saving lives in different ways to determine priorities.   But the allocation of money to that purpose compared with other uses is a political decision, not an economic one, just as is an individual&#039;s choice of expenditure on charities and a Government&#039;s choice of how much money to spend on overseas aid for a similar purpose (but usually assuming a far lower SVOL).

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eszett, I don&#8217;t believe it measures anything real and certainly nothing worth using in a cost-benefit analysis that is expected to be taken seriously.</p>
<p>The value of a life to the community is presumably the NPV of future earnings and unpaid contributions less costs.  For some people that is a lot and for others it is negative.  Essentially it is unknowable.</p>
<p>From the point of view of Government expenditure they can look at the available money and find the most quality of life &#8211; years they can save with that money.  In other words, compare the costs of saving lives in different ways to determine priorities.   But the allocation of money to that purpose compared with other uses is a political decision, not an economic one, just as is an individual&#8217;s choice of expenditure on charities and a Government&#8217;s choice of how much money to spend on overseas aid for a similar purpose (but usually assuming a far lower SVOL).</p>
<p>Ref: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life</a></p>
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		<title>By: eszett</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952907</link>
		<dc:creator>eszett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952907</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, Alan, do you have a better suggestion?

From what you are saying, I gather you think that the SVOL is overstated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Alan, do you have a better suggestion?</p>
<p>From what you are saying, I gather you think that the SVOL is overstated.</p>
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		<title>By: eszett</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952906</link>
		<dc:creator>eszett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952906</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Plum,

It is indexed though to the average hourly wages. 
But I agree it would be interesting to see if that has changed or not and whether the indexing on average hourly wages is sufficient.

Maybe comparing it to how often other countries do similar surveys and how often and also check how big the impact is there. 

However I am not quite sure that you can call it &quot;laughable&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Plum,</p>
<p>It is indexed though to the average hourly wages.<br />
But I agree it would be interesting to see if that has changed or not and whether the indexing on average hourly wages is sufficient.</p>
<p>Maybe comparing it to how often other countries do similar surveys and how often and also check how big the impact is there. </p>
<p>However I am not quite sure that you can call it &#8220;laughable&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952901</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 06:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952901</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[plum, of course the methodology is fundamentally flawed.  How much people say they are prepared to pay when there is zero prospect of them actually doing so or having the money to do so is an utterly ludicrous basis to value anything - let alone to claim it is a &quot;social cost&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>plum, of course the methodology is fundamentally flawed.  How much people say they are prepared to pay when there is zero prospect of them actually doing so or having the money to do so is an utterly ludicrous basis to value anything &#8211; let alone to claim it is a &#8220;social cost&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: wreck1080</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952899</link>
		<dc:creator>wreck1080</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 06:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[is this the right time considering the countries current financials?

There are literally millions of good causes out there to throw money at.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is this the right time considering the countries current financials?</p>
<p>There are literally millions of good causes out there to throw money at.</p>
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		<title>By: plum</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952894</link>
		<dc:creator>plum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 06:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952894</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@eszett - the Ministry of Transport just released their updated figures for the social costs of traffic accidents yesterday.  You can check out the figures and the methodology here: http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/land/landsafety/thesocialcostofroadcrashesandinjuries/ 

It is partially based on a fairly outdated survey (1991) that attempted to assess how much people would be prepared to pay to avoid being killed or serously injured in a car accident.  I don&#039;t think the methodology per se is fundamentally flawed, although I do think they need to redo the survey to see if peoples&#039; willigness to pay to prevent their death or injury by car accident has changed since 1991.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@eszett &#8211; the Ministry of Transport just released their updated figures for the social costs of traffic accidents yesterday.  You can check out the figures and the methodology here: <a href="http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/land/landsafety/thesocialcostofroadcrashesandinjuries/" rel="nofollow">http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/land/landsafety/thesocialcostofroadcrashesandinjuries/</a> </p>
<p>It is partially based on a fairly outdated survey (1991) that attempted to assess how much people would be prepared to pay to avoid being killed or serously injured in a car accident.  I don&#8217;t think the methodology per se is fundamentally flawed, although I do think they need to redo the survey to see if peoples&#8217; willigness to pay to prevent their death or injury by car accident has changed since 1991.</p>
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		<title>By: eszett</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952893</link>
		<dc:creator>eszett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 06:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952893</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Alan, I&#039;m quite curious, how do they do the calculation?
And what do you think is wrong with it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alan, I&#8217;m quite curious, how do they do the calculation?<br />
And what do you think is wrong with it?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952865</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 04:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[mikenmild, I wouldn&#039;t put much faith in the cost-benefit analysis of transport projects.  Have you ever looked at how they get their $4M value of a life?  Laughable - or make you weep if you&#039;re a scientist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mikenmild, I wouldn&#8217;t put much faith in the cost-benefit analysis of transport projects.  Have you ever looked at how they get their $4M value of a life?  Laughable &#8211; or make you weep if you&#8217;re a scientist.</p>
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		<title>By: mikenmild</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952861</link>
		<dc:creator>mikenmild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 04:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952861</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Science is good when:
1. The government thinks it can afford it, and
2. It&#039;s something the government agrees with.

Science is bad when:
1. The government thinks it can&#039;t afford it, and
2. It&#039;s something the government disagrees with.

So, yes to tinkering with youth mental health, but no to lots of other things, like a harm-reduction approach to drug use or funding transport projects on the basis of cost-benefit analysis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Science is good when:<br />
1. The government thinks it can afford it, and<br />
2. It&#8217;s something the government agrees with.</p>
<p>Science is bad when:<br />
1. The government thinks it can&#8217;t afford it, and<br />
2. It&#8217;s something the government disagrees with.</p>
<p>So, yes to tinkering with youth mental health, but no to lots of other things, like a harm-reduction approach to drug use or funding transport projects on the basis of cost-benefit analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete George</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952858</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 04:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952858</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d back Gluckman over berend - something has to be tried to deal with major mental health and suicide problems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d back Gluckman over berend &#8211; something has to be tried to deal with major mental health and suicide problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952849</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 03:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[berend, youth suicide is not a new problem, nor confined to this country.  If Gluckman is correct that the remedies to be funded are well-founded scientifically then they should have an impact.  If they don&#039;t, then either the original research is wrong or some new factors should have been identified  ... or Gluckman is spinning.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>berend, youth suicide is not a new problem, nor confined to this country.  If Gluckman is correct that the remedies to be funded are well-founded scientifically then they should have an impact.  If they don&#8217;t, then either the original research is wrong or some new factors should have been identified  &#8230; or Gluckman is spinning.</p>
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		<title>By: berend</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952843</link>
		<dc:creator>berend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 03:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pete George: given that a lot of drinking and gambling happens to be with taxpayer money, I would say ban it. If we give you the means to live, we&#039;ll decide how you live.

Alan: growing up is hardly a new problem. So we cannot attribute problems to &quot;growing up&quot;. We can attribute them to the environment in which kids grow up. That&#039;s the factor that has changed. And that&#039;s the factor that won&#039;t be addressed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete George: given that a lot of drinking and gambling happens to be with taxpayer money, I would say ban it. If we give you the means to live, we&#8217;ll decide how you live.</p>
<p>Alan: growing up is hardly a new problem. So we cannot attribute problems to &#8220;growing up&#8221;. We can attribute them to the environment in which kids grow up. That&#8217;s the factor that has changed. And that&#8217;s the factor that won&#8217;t be addressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952841</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 03:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952841</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[berend: &lt;i&gt;&quot;Sadly we can already predict that all this money will have a negligible impact on youth suicide rates.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

In which case there should certainly be some resulting publications to refute this currently &quot;robust science&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>berend: <i>&#8220;Sadly we can already predict that all this money will have a negligible impact on youth suicide rates.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>In which case there should certainly be some resulting publications to refute this currently &#8220;robust science&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete George</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952833</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 03:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jinny - so once an MP votes contrary to what you want then they can never do any good? That must rule out just about every MP.

If all gambling and drinking was banned do you think that would solve all mental health problems?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jinny &#8211; so once an MP votes contrary to what you want then they can never do any good? That must rule out just about every MP.</p>
<p>If all gambling and drinking was banned do you think that would solve all mental health problems?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952831</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 03:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952831</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my humble opinion it won&#039;t make the blindest bit of difference. I have no faith in science to solve problems of the human heart and the human spirit. More taxpayer money spent on more salaries and more big government initiatives. Hopeless, hopeless, hopeless.

But rather than just rail at the darkness here are a few proven tips to help this tragic issue – give them a faith to live by. Our spirits cannot handle a vacuum.
– Get married and bring up your children in a stable marriage environment.
– Let&#039;s be against suicide. How can we consider youth suicide a tragedy when we consider euthanasia a human right?
– Don&#039;t take drugs and don&#039;t let your kids take drugs either.
– Do not glamorise the funerals of those that have committed suicide. There is a direct causal link between those who go to the funeral of a teenager and those who kill themselves, often the next day. The copycat syndrome is absolutely real.

These are good initiatives. And look we haven&#039;t spent a cent of taxpayer money!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my humble opinion it won&#8217;t make the blindest bit of difference. I have no faith in science to solve problems of the human heart and the human spirit. More taxpayer money spent on more salaries and more big government initiatives. Hopeless, hopeless, hopeless.</p>
<p>But rather than just rail at the darkness here are a few proven tips to help this tragic issue – give them a faith to live by. Our spirits cannot handle a vacuum.<br />
– Get married and bring up your children in a stable marriage environment.<br />
– Let&#8217;s be against suicide. How can we consider youth suicide a tragedy when we consider euthanasia a human right?<br />
– Don&#8217;t take drugs and don&#8217;t let your kids take drugs either.<br />
– Do not glamorise the funerals of those that have committed suicide. There is a direct causal link between those who go to the funeral of a teenager and those who kill themselves, often the next day. The copycat syndrome is absolutely real.</p>
<p>These are good initiatives. And look we haven&#8217;t spent a cent of taxpayer money!</p>
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		<title>By: berend</title>
		<link>http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/04/using_science_for_good.html/comment-page-1#comment-952828</link>
		<dc:creator>berend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2012 02:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/?p=61545#comment-952828</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sadly we can already predict that all this money will have a negligible impact on youth suicide rates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly we can already predict that all this money will have a negligible impact on youth suicide rates.</p>
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