Zimmerman charged

April 13th, 2012 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

, charged with second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, faces his first appearance before a Florida judge on Thursday where his lawyer said he will try to get the crime watch volunteer’s release from jail.

The hearing, currently set for 1.30pm EDT, will be the first appearance by Zimmerman, 28, since he became a national and highly divisive figure by shooting and killing Martin, 17, in a quiet gated community in the central Florida town of Sanford.

I’m of the view that you only use a gun in self defence if in real fear of your life. From what we know, this does not appear to be the case.

However that is not the test under Florida law.

That previous decision cast a spotlight on Florida’s ”Stand Your Ground” law, which allows people to use deadly force when they believe they are in danger of being killed or suffering great bodily harm.

What is great bodily harm? Is it being punched in the face, as Martin allegedly did to Zimmerman.

Arrested and charged with second-degree murder on Wednesday, Zimmerman, who is white and Hispanic, will not appear physically at the court for the hearing, local courthouse officials said. 

The media have tried to make this into a race case. NBC had to sack a staffer who edited a tape recording to make it sounds like Zimmerman was saying he was following Martin because he is black, when in fact they deleted out the 911 dispatcher asking him the race.

Also note how Zimmerman is described as “white and Hispanic’ rather than “Hispanic”. Have you ever heard someone of mixed ancestry before described that way? Is Obama called “white and black”. Would you call someone who is part-Maori “European and Maori”.

The Florida law states:

a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony

So it will be an interesting and high profile court case. I would makee two observations at this stage:

  1. If Zimmerman hadn’t followed Martin (who was not committing any crime at all) on the basis of his suspicions, then Martin would still be alive
  2. If Martin had not attacked Zimmerman, after being followed by him, then Martin would probably still be alive also

People will disagree on whether it was reasonable for Zimmerman to follow Martin, and also on whether Martin’s responses were reasonable (if I saw a stranger following me and running after me, I’d not react too well to it either), and finally on whether Zimmerman’s use of the gun was appropriate and lawful.

Also what we do not know (and may never know) is whether Martin was given an opportunity to retreat, after Zimmerman pulled out his gun.

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162 Responses to “Zimmerman charged”

  1. realize (21 comments) says:

    Forget about race and put it this way: a young, unarmed kid was stalked and accosted, then killed after a confrontation. Shouldn’t Martin be the one who would be justified to use deadly force on Zimmerman, under the “Stand your Ground” law? If this confrontation had gone differently and Martin had killed Zimmerman in self-defense, is there any doubt that he would have been arrested immediately and charged?

    It is the blatant double standards here that make people wonder, “what’s going on?” – and the only conclusion you can draw is that there is a racial element.

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  2. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,903 comments) says:

    “What is great bodily harm? Is it being punched in the face, as Martin allegedly did to Zimmerman.”

    I think you are trying too hard to be generous to the little prick who got shot.

    He didn’t just punch Zimmerman in the face. Witnesses report he then bashed Zimmerman’s head repeatedly on the concrete.

    I’s say an acquittal is a cert. That is, if a jury can be found which has not been negatively influenced by that B A Jack Ass in the White House.

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  3. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “The media have tried to make this into a race case.”

    As Luc pointed out yesterday, NOT seeing this as a race issue IS racist.

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  4. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Witnesses report he then bashed Zimmerman’s head repeatedly on the concrete.

    Really? Where are these witnesses?

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  5. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    Realize- It’s all about interpretation really…I suspect you have been duped by the media campaign (including airbrushed,distorted photos) that paints Trayvon Martin as a straight-A student, angelic choir boy and potentially a future president.
    Scratch under the surface and you will discover that the gold teethed and tattooed Trayvon Martin was anything but- he had been kicked out of school, was a known drug dealer and openly bragged about his ‘Gangsta’ lifestyle and propensity for violence..(read some of his ‘No limit Nigga’ Twitter posts..they are utterly disgusting)
    Now I have no idea whether the shooting was justified or not (It should all come out in Court) but one thing is for sure- this kid wasn’t the innocent angel the media are making him out to be…

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  6. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    ross69

    Google is a great tool
    Open a new browser window
    Type in http://www.google.co.nz
    When it is loaded…
    Follow it so far?

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  7. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    David, the “white Hispanic” thing comes from the fact that Hispanic/Latino isn’t a race. It’s used to describe Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.

    Guess what, black Hispanics exist, too. Your analogies about Obama and Maori are just plain wrong.

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  8. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    i opted out of giving a shit about anything to do with this once i read the banner headline on the news at the gym which said “unarmed black teenager”.

    3 emotive statements that do nothing to the facts. clearly the media has decided already their outcome.

    regardless of the outcome (as i have no idea what it should be), hopefully it will be done properly and under the law and not by the media and the hysterics of the chattering classes.

    and thats me for this entire thing. i imagine i will hear the result and there will almost certainly be controversy either way, but no good will come from wasting any time on this.

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  9. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @ephemera

    “David, the “white Hispanic” thing comes from the fact that Hispanic/Latino isn’t a race.”

    La raza disagrees with you
    “Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada”

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  10. sHr0oMaN (25 comments) says:

    > As Luc pointed out yesterday, NOT seeing this as a race issue IS racist.

    Hmm, how about viewing this case dispassionately and waiting for the evidence?
    Zimmerman should’ve been arrested and possibly charged – after all a human lost their life in circumstances that are at best, unclear.

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  11. Brian Marshall (202 comments) says:

    Ross, look what I found:
    “The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel’s report.

    One such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and led him to fire at Martin in self-defense.”

    Source- http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326_1_police-dispatcher-new-details-protesters

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  12. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    Yeah, Adolf … I read about those witnesses, too. On this website: http://www.davidduke.com/?p=33398. Which also tells me: “Trayvon was not the cute 12 year old originally pictured in the Zionist media.”

    Good thing there’s no racial angle to this whole picture.

    (Oh – another funny thing. When you google “Zimmerman head concrete”, the second link to show up is http://www.zimmermanindustries.com/en/ … how pissed must they be about this whole saga?)

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  13. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @Other_Andy

    The American census agrees with me.

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  14. Mark (496 comments) says:

    I would say Zimmerman was in fear of his life as a over 6 foot tall guy was bashing his head into the concrete pavement – there is nothing wrong with walking around in your own neighbourhood he has every right to be there and Martin attacked Zimmerman without provocation.

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  15. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-witness-zimmerman-uninjured?intcmp=239

    Thannks for the advice, Andy. As you can see I followed your advice. According to this witness, Martin and Zimmerman were on grass, not concrete. And the same witness reckons Zimmerman had no injuires after shooting Martin.

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  16. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    I’m of the view that you only use a gun in self defence if in real fear of your life. From what we know, this does not appear to be the case.

    However that is not the test under Florida law.

    It’s also not the law in New Zealand. From what I have read of the Florida law, it would be harder for a defendant claiming self-defence to be acquitted. You can get an acquittal in New Zealand – and most of the common law world – if you believe you are threatened, even if, actually, you weren’t threatened, and your belief was completely unreasonable. The stand your ground law requires the belief you are in danger to be reasonable.

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  17. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    If Martin had not attacked Zimmerman, after being followed by him, then Martin would probably still be alive also.

    I’m not sure that it has been established that Martin did attack Zimmerman.

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  18. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,903 comments) says:

    Well, if you want to soak your brain in addled bullshit, just read The Guardian.

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  19. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    i followed this case from the first reporting, including early police statements which indicated there were no eyewitnesses. The closest we have is Martin’s girlfriend’s account of the cellphone conservation they had when Martin rang in a panic. This is the only record of what actually happened, aside from Zimmerman’s account.

    According to experts, the self-defense law doesn’t come into play when the attacker instigated the confrontation. It will be good to see this tested in court.

    There is no evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman. The evidence is that he was trying to get away from the big, scary stalker. There is no evidence of injuries sustained by Zimmerman. Video released by the police when he was initially taken into custody show a calm, injury-free Zimmerman, his hands cable-tied behind his back.

    The tape re;eased by the police clearly showed Zimmerman calling Martin a fucking ****. I understand “coon” is a common term of abuse for blacks in the US.

    The right blogsphere is awash with newly invented “facts” that, fortunately, will now be exposed for the fabrications they are.

    But I’m not confident of a conviction in this case, as the US judicial system has the same racial bias as ours. In fact, we are marginally worse towards our Maori than the US is towards their blacks.

    [DPF: You are wrong on multiple issues, as usual. To be fair that is prob because you only listened to the original media stories that you have regurgitated here.

    The media have retracted their statement that Zimmerman showed no evidence of injuries, based on video.

    The media have also retracted that he used the word coon.]

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  20. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    Unfortunately this case has become entirely political. Almost certainly the “stand your ground” law is not involved, it is a straight out self defense scenario and was Zimmerman justified in using deadly force. It does appear that there are witnesses to a fight, and it alleged that Martin was beating Zimmerman’s head on the ground. To find out, a prosecution seems to me to be the best course. Given all the “framing” that’s been going on though, it might be hard to get an independent jury empaneled.

    One thing to note though, Zimmerman isn’t apparently all that racist, several years ago he was involved in a protracted campaign to obtain justice for someone he believed was wrongly convicted, and that person was black. They were subsequently releasedI believe.

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  21. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @ross69

    Well there you go, well done.
    And if the Grundian says he had no injuries it must be true.
    I mean the Grundian doesn’t lie, does it.

    Now the Grundian has cleared it all up for us plebs, why wait for a court case?
    Lets put Zimmerman against the wall and shoot him.

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  22. louie (96 comments) says:

    @realize at 11:04 “a young, unarmed kid was stalked and accosted”.
    I haven’t heard of any evidence that Zimmerman followed, yet alone stalked Martin. The media beatup suggests that he did but then they have suggested a lot of other incorrect points – as others have noted on this thread.

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  23. Nick R (507 comments) says:

    The CCTV picture of Zimmerman immediately after the incident (when he was taken to the Police station) didn’t show any obvious injuries either. But those were pretty low-res. So I reckon a Court is exactly the right place to find out what happened and who attacked who. Just a pity it took so long.

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  24. IHStewart (388 comments) says:

    @ Adolf
    ” I’s say an acquittal is a cert. That is, if a jury can be found which has not been negatively influenced by that B A Jack Ass in the White House. ”

    “… police surveilance cameras show Zimmerman walking into the Police Station with no signs of having been in any fight at all no bloody nose, no bangs on the back of his bald head, and the Coroner reports that Trayvons hands showed no bruising or cuts at all, just a bullet wound to the chest.. So there was no fight, as Zimmerman claims ”

    ” Whaddya think about this footage that has come out of Zimmerman arriving at Sanford jail, 40 minutes after the shooting, looking fresh and un-injured. Sorta makes this broken nose story a little harder to believe.”

    ( comments from a couple of friends of mine in the States )

    Actually Adolf I think you are a racist shit.

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  25. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    Other_Andy,

    Given your earlier advice to people on how to use google as a reference tool, perhaps you’d like to expand on it by providing a list of acceptable sources for information … given that when people DO use it and cite the results, your immediate response is to say they are wrong?

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  26. louie (96 comments) says:

    @Luc at 11:50 “There is no evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman. The evidence is that he was trying to get away from the big, scary stalker.”
    First sentence incorrect as per the news item referenced Orlando Sentinel. 2nd sentence – if you are following the news closely as you state then you will know the relative sizes of the two men – Martin a big guy at 6′ 3” and Zimmerman a weedy 5′ 9″.

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  27. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    The tape re;eased by the police clearly showed Zimmerman calling Martin a fucking ****. I understand “coon” is a common term of abuse for blacks in the US.

    The affidavit establishing probable cause filed by police transcribes it at “fucking punks”.

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  28. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Well, if you want to soak your brain in addled bullshit, just read The Guardian.

    Haha is that the best you can do?

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  29. Fentex (974 comments) says:

    Also what we do not know (and may never know) is whether Martin was given an opportunity to retreat, after Zimmerman pulled out his gun.

    The reported recorded phone call which has cries for help on it may very well provide evidence regarding this point.

    If Martin hit Zimmerman it seems to me there’s as much evidence for his having stood his ground as there is for Zimmerman making a similar claim.

    With Martins call to his friend reporting fear he was being stalked and Zimmermans reported announcement to a police dispatcher he was following Martin I think there’s clearly a case for Martin having reasonable grounds to fear for his safety and to suspect Zimmerman provoked a confrontation.

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  30. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Lets put Zimmerman against the wall and shoot him.

    Nah I don’t think this is a death penalty case. :)

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  31. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Martin a big guy at 6′ 3” and Zimmerman a weedy 5′ 9″.

    Zimmerman weedy? Jeez you’re clutching at straws now.

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  32. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @AG

    Before you get all hot and flustered.
    I did not say the information was wrong. All I suggested was that the ‘information’ you read in the MSM (And especially in the Grundian) might be somewhat biased, incorrect or even falsefied (NBC anybody?).
    Lets wait and see what happens at the trial.

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  33. Fletch (6,387 comments) says:

    ross69

    Google is a great tool
    Open a new browser window
    Type in http://www.google.co.nz
    When it is loaded…
    Follow it so far?

    hehe ;)

    http://bit.ly/HBL4RC

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  34. tom hunter (4,838 comments) says:

    I’m not sure that it has been established that Martin did attack Zimmerman.

    Eh? I realise the media reporting of this has been awful from day one, but even ABC news has now reversed themselves and admits that the video of Zimmerman showed gashes on the back of his head. The police report apparently also noted a bashed nose, abrasions and other marks consistent with his story of being on his back getting bashed.

    Also, regarding the now infamous “Stand Your Ground” law: it probably won’t apply if witnesses and forensics confirm Zimmerman’s story, since that physical position would preclude being able to retreat.

    But all this will play out in a court of law. The real focus in public should now be on why the media played the white racist angle from day one for this shooting? That Guardian link is dated March 30 and is the classic time capsule of how the story was being played at the time, complete with the then standard media take of showing Zimmerman’s photo (big, scary) beside Martin as he was at the age of 12 (sweet and innocent). Truly a masterpiece of honest, balanced reporting.

    But why this shooting in particular? Is it the Latino angle? Is it the one-on-one? Is it the neighbourhood watch aspect (leave it in the hands of the cops)? Is it the anti-gun hopes of US liberals? For example, I see a couple of white guys were arrested in Tulsa the other day for multiple shootings of blacks, so if the media wanted to play up the America-Is-Still-A-Hotbed-Of-Racism angle your would think that would be the story to go for.

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  35. Fletch (6,387 comments) says:

    I see Obama is stirring the racial pot as well, saying, “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

    WTF?

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  36. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    It’s a good thing we have courts. Rather than liberal self-hating elites passing judgement.

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  37. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    NBC sacked someone for editig the tape after playing it constantly for five days while people were saying “hey, it has been editied.” NBC had an agenda and they succeeded. Their scape goat will probably be rehired next week.

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  38. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    Curious though, it does seem Martin did assault Zimmerman. And pretty roughly, somehow getting him on the ground.

    So? Did Zimmerman have his pistol draw before being assaulted? If he did, why didn’t he shot before Martin touched him? Perhaps because Zimmerman wasn’t being overly aggressive. Or maybe Zimmerman didn’t have it drawn – a less aggressive stance also.

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  39. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    David, the “white Hispanic” thing comes from the fact that Hispanic/Latino isn’t a race. It’s used to describe Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race.

    Guess what, black Hispanics exist, too. Your analogies about Obama and Maori are just plain wrong.

    White-Hispanic is not an ethnic group either. It is an attempt to make it a White-Black racial issue.

    In the UK, Chinese and Japanese get pissed off when Pakistanis are called Asians. I think David’s analogy is plain right.

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  40. david@tokyo (263 comments) says:

    Thank goodness David Bain wasn’t there or there would be even more controversy

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  41. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Ah luc, still repeating the same lies he was called out for yesterday. Always a class act…

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  42. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Do they run credits at the end of ABC news? Should be easy to compare before and after to see if there’s a name missing.

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  43. Leaping Jimmy (16,448 comments) says:

    Luc I too have been following this since first reported but not I don’t think for the reasons you have been although I too also saw egegious racist injustice from first blush. This has been a classic case of media deception and disinformation and quite frankly it’s a shame most people have missed the unfolding story since they might have learned something about how powerful forces take an incident and twist it to their own ends.

    In this case the initial objective was to allow Zimmerman to go free and the initial media reporting from all sources no matter which outlet (yes, they are ALL equally fair and balanced – duh) was along those lines. It was only when serious discrpancies started to creep in that the media outlets changed their spin.

    In the background you had Obama making periodic comments and remember the POTUS in an incident like this has access to all the NSA tapes of the phone calls and police reports and lots of other sources the media doesn’t have and he knows therefore, exactly what is going on: e.g. whether or not Zimmerman said “those fucking coons.” You will all recall no doubt that I told you a month or two ago that Obama was reportedly considering playing the race card in the election campaign – in fact I’ve said that twice. I wonder therefore what was in his calculations as he was making his comments on this developing story?

    For those who’ve first heard of it, this will almost certainly become a major dynamic in the election campaign and the whole thing has been manipulted by the powers that be from day one – leaving the sheeple to bleat and mahhhh according to how the powers that be have decided they should.

    I’m a day or two away from the notes I’ve been keeping on this case but next time it comes up on KB I’ll take you through what the powers that be said and when and how the media spin operated on it to produce the desired effect – it really is classic manipulation and illuminating, if you didn’t already know, as to how these stories get translated from a single event into a social movement. This hasn’t even started yet. And the whole thing has been manipulated and manufactured. If you think it was just a random set of events why Timmy, where the fuck did you get your degree from?

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  44. SGA (1,026 comments) says:

    @louie 11:56 – “Martin a big guy at 6′ 3” and Zimmerman a weedy 5′ 9″
    According to the Boston Herald, Martin was 6′ – 6′ 1″ and 150-160lbs (hardly a “big” guy) , Zimmerman 5’9″ and 190lbs (hardly “weedy”).

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  45. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    Witnesses report he then bashed Zimmerman’s head repeatedly on the concrete.

    Really? Where are these witnesses?

    Fox News’ New York studios maybe?

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  46. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    the 160 pounds for trayvon is based on a year-old measurement. If anything he’s probably bigger now. Wonder what the boston herald’s reasoning is for assuming a sixteen year old can only get smaller in a year?

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  47. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    What was Martin doing at the time?
    Its a gated community so I assume its private property, did he live there?
    You can get your arse blasted in the States for stepping onto someones land no questions asked…

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  48. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Scott – maybe ask the cops? No doubt they took the witnesses’ details when they made their statements….

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  49. SGA (1,026 comments) says:

    @Put it away – I guess the Boston Herald must stick with the facts it has. The photos suggest he’s more slim than bulky, so I be surprised if he’d be that much heavier than that. I’m sure it will be in Coroner’s report.

    @Colville – one of his parents was living there. As I understand it, he was walking back after a trip to the “dairy”.

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  50. marcw (247 comments) says:

    [i] Colville (36) Says:
    April 13th, 2012 at 1:20 pm

    What was Martin doing at the time?[/i]

    Initial reports said Martin was taking a shortcut home. No-one has published a map showing the relative positions from where he was last seen (shop) and his home. The only map I have seen showed Martin’s track being followed through the community – and it didn’t seem to be one for someone supposedly passing through. This and other evidence coming to light cast doubt on the innocent intent of Martin. However, it would be fair to say that all media reports about this case since the start should be totally discounted, and the evidence about to be given in court will be the truth.
    I can’t see a conviction coming any time soon – even President Obama has tainted the case with his poorly advised comments.

    I’m glad we don’t have handgun permits here – these types of situations are so easy to get into, with the inevitable tragic outcomes.

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  51. SGA (1,026 comments) says:

    @Put it away – “the 160 pounds for trayvon is based on a year-old measurement” – the Boston Herald article cites the Sanford Police Dept’s (where the shooting took place) incident report as providing the 160lb figure. Is this not correct? – just curious

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  52. berend (1,709 comments) says:

    It’s a clear cut case instead of trying to muddle the waters DPF. Zimmerman called 911, and he was told not to follow, but wait for the police. So he was not in immediate danger.

    Instead he followed, and shot someone dead.

    Really, stand your ground doesn’t have anything to do with this. Will be thrown out in 5 seconds.

    Zimmerman is toast, and may get a deserved break in jail for a very long time.

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  53. Mark (496 comments) says:

    Its not illegal to walk around you own neighbourhood, Zimmerman had ever right to be there. He was attacked and assualted by Martin and in fear of his life shot him.

    In the cases I have read about in similiar circumstances in the US Zimmerman will be acquitted.

    I reckon more Hispanics will be voting for Mitt Romney as they will see Obama as another just another race hustler who is willing to throw them under the bus.

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  54. Graeme Edgeler (3,289 comments) says:

    Really, stand your ground doesn’t have anything to do with this. Will be thrown out in 5 seconds.

    I believe the argument is just likely to be self-defence, rather than stand your ground.

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  55. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    SGA – based on performance so far, anything claimed by the mainstream media is probably not correct. The year old weight has been bandied around elsewhere, maybe the herald has some other source. I wouldn’t take their word for anything without proof.

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  56. SGA (1,026 comments) says:

    @Put it away – “bandied around elsewhere” – glad to see you’ve found a reputable source of information to replace the MSM :-)

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  57. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Witness Statements, sourced from CNN

    Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora Lamilla

    Mary Cutcher was in her kitchen making coffee that night with her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla. The window was open, she said.

    “We heard a whining. Not like a crying, boohoo, but like a whining, someone in distress, and then the gunshot,” she said.

    They looked out the window but saw nothing. It was dark.

    They ran out the sliding glass door, and within seconds, they saw Zimmerman.

    “Zimmerman was standing over the body with — basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon’s back,” Cutcher said. “And it didn’t seem to me that he was trying to help him in any way. I didn’t hear any struggle prior to the gunshot.

    “And I feel like it was Trayvon Martin that was crying out, because the minute that the gunshot went off, the whining stopped.”

    The two women said they could not see whether Zimmerman was bruised or hurt. It was too dark.

    “Selma asked him three times, ‘what’s going on over there?’ ” Cutcher said. “He looks back and doesn’t say anything. She asks him again, ‘everything OK? What’s going on?’ Same thing: looked at us, looked back. Finally, the third time, he said, ‘just call the police.’ ”

    _____________________________________________________

    Anonymous witness

    A witness who asked not to be identified, even by gender, told CNN’s Anderson Cooper about hearing voices outside in an area where neighborhood residents often walk their dogs and wondering, “Oh, my gosh, who’s out there walking their dog in the rain?”

    Then the witness heard a “very loud, predominant voice” and opened the window.

    “I couldn’t hear the words, but it was like, OK, this is not a regular conversation. This is someone aggressively, you know, yelling at someone.”

    The witness recalled seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other.

    “And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another … excruciating type of yell,” the witness said. “It didn’t almost sound like ‘help.’ It just sounded so painful. But I wasn’t watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there’s the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn’t see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang.”

    The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. “It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don’t know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop.”

    Then one of the men, who appeared to be Hispanic, started walking toward the witness’ vantage point, the witness said. Zimmerman is Hispanic.

    “He didn’t appear hurt or anything else,” the witness said.

    _____________________________________________________

    Martin’s girlfriend

    Benjamin Crump, the Martin family lawyer, says Martin’s girlfriend’s account of what happened connects the dots and destroys Zimmerman’s claims of self-defense.

    The girl, who did not want to be identified, said she was on the phone with the teen before the shooting.

    When Zimmerman got closer to Martin, she told her boyfriend to run, but Martin told her that he was not going to run, she said.

    “What are you stopping me for?” Martin asked Zimmerman, according to the girl.

    “What are you doing around here?” Zimmerman asked in response.

    The girl said she then got the impression that an altercation was taking place and that someone had pushed Martin, because the headset fell out of his ear, and the phone shut off.

    _____________________________________________________

    What we do know, is that Trayvon Martin is dead at the hands of George Zimmerman. We also know that Zimmerman followed Martin after having been told not to by police dispatchers. We know that Martin was unarmed, and that he had innocent reasons for being where he was. If Zimmerman had obeyed police instructions, then it is likely that no conflict would have been instigated by either party. If Martin instigated the assault, having been followed by Zimmerman, then certainly it would be logical to assume that Martin may have felt threatened, and that any move against Zimmerman might have been brought about through concerns for his own safety, rather than a desire to cause trouble.

    If we are to theoretically excuse Zimmerman for acting within the “Stand Your Ground” law, then we must apply that law evenly. If Martin, who would appear to have been innocently walking home, felt threatened, then his actions should also be excused by that very law, as he was the one being followed.

    Zimmerman supporters will point to any injuries sustained by him as justification for shooting Martin, yet he was the one who followed Martin, and as such, the stand your ground principle should apply to Martin. If Martin had not been shot, and Zimmerman had ended up on the pavement, with a broken nose and abrasions, could Martin have invoked the ‘Stand your Ground’ defense on the basis that he was walking to an address he was staying at, and was being followed by an armed man?

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  58. Weihana (4,537 comments) says:

    Mark,


    Its not illegal to walk around you own neighbourhood, Zimmerman had ever right to be there.

    As did Martin.


    He was attacked and assualted by Martin

    Were you there?


    and in fear of his life shot him.

    But who started the confrontation? Did the black kid just randomly select Zimmerman for a fight or did Zimmerman confront Martin based on his concerns as expressed on the 911 tape? There is no logical reason why Martin would confront Zimmerman, there is an obvious motive for why Zimmerman would confront Martin because that motive is recorded in a 911 call.

    If I walk down the road and find a 250 lbs rugby player and I pick a fight with him, do I then get to say that I’m in fear of my life therefore I have the right to shoot him dead?

    Zimmerman claims that the boy approached him and attacked him. Why? It makes no sense. The logical explanation is that Zimmerman was stalking this boy based on the concerns he expressed in the 911 call, they got into a confrontation and Zimmerman shot the boy, probably because he was losing the fight.

    In that scenario Zimmerman is at fault. He should have waited for Police. Even if we accept that he turned around and Martin was standing there looking for a fight why couldn’t he get away? It’s all kinda unbelievable and seems to conveniently exclude Zimmerman from having any role in initiating the confrontation.

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  59. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Oh, here is the affadavit for Probable Cause that lead to Zimmerman’s arrest and the continued remand in custody, sourced from Fox News.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/interactive/2012/04/12/state-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-affidavit-probable-cause/

    It makes for interesting reading.

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  60. tom hunter (4,838 comments) says:

    Zimmerman is toast, and may get a deserved break in jail for a very long time.

    As I said earlier, we’ll have to see this plays out, instead of jumping to conclusions. But if one is going to do that it might pay to hear that a certain lawyer also thinks it’s an open and shut case – for Zimmerman’s charges to be dismissed:

    [and I'm transcribing here]
    Affidavits are usually thin ….. this is so thin it won’t even make it past the judge on a second degree murder charge. There’s simply nothing in there that would justify a second degree charge.

    it’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible

    I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for re-election …. and overcharged, way overcharged.

    If the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit this case will result in an acquittal

    But it’s worse than that. It’s irresponsible and unethical in not including the material that favours the defendant unless it’s not true. But if it’s true, as we now have learned from other information, that the grass stains are in back of Zimmerman’s shirt, that there are bruises on his head, you must put that in an affidavit. Affidavit has to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    Well, it’s very easy to get an indictment. I think a chief judge in the New York court of Appeals once said that a prosecutor could persuade a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. It’s even easier to get something like this, because all the prosecutor has to do is sign her name to it.

    But probable cause is a very minimal standard. it just means that if everything that you say turns out to be true, have the elements of the crime been satisfied? Proof beyond a reasonable doubt means that a jury has to conclude that there’s no doubt that it happened, no reasonable doubt that it happened.

    This affidavit doesn’t even make it to probable cause. Everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defence of self-defence. Everything! Even if he was the provocateur you still have traditional self-defence under Florida law. If in fact Zimmerman provoked it but then Martin got on top and was banging his head against the ground, he still has a traditional right to self-defence.

    So there’s nothing in this affidavit – and I’ve read it quite carefully – that suggests a crime.

    A good judge will throw this out, and I think probably should be satisfied.

    She’s won her campaign. She’s over charged – second degree murder. She’s the hero.

    But the question is do they have more information. If they had more information why didn’t they put it in.

    That’s a tough assessment from Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law professor and OJ Simpson defence appellate adviser, which is just one of a number of famous murder trials where he’s been part of a successful defence. In short, someone worth listening to.

    I was also interested in his comments on what I consider to be the worst aspect of the US legal system:

    And why are both sides trying to seal the record here. I suspect that already we’re seeing negotiations possibly towards a plea bargain

    But it’s unethical to overcharge in order to get a plea. It’s unethical to charge second degree murder in order to get a plea of manslaughter.

    I think this prosecutor has a lot of answering to do. She’ll win a lot of popularity contests. She’ll probably get appointed to judge.

    But the tragedy in America is that we’re the only democracy in the world where we elect prosecutors and elect judges and that’s not conducive to doing justice in high profile cases where people are rooting for outcomes and nobody seems to be concerned about the truth.

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  61. Weihana (4,537 comments) says:

    tom hunter,

    It’s interesting. Reading the affidavit for probable cause I too cannot see any indication that a murder took place. It is quite unfortunate in the US system that the tradition seems to be to overcharge and plea bargain out of court.

    Indeed that aspect of the system is what blacks often face when they come before the system and ironically it is now used as a means to quiet public discontent over racial discrimination in the justice system.

    As I understand it even Trayvon’s mum believes it was an accident, yet we have a murder charge.

    Definitely a reason not to have elected prosecutors and judges.

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  62. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    Seems to me there’s two competing views.

    In one view, Martin was legitimately walking home, he’s not a saint but he’s also doing nothing wrong. Zimmerman follows him against instruction from the police, Martin gets worried and turns around, Zimmerman picks a fight, when it starts going against him, he shoots Martin.

    In the other view, Martin is a bad bugger from way back, he’s wandering the streets casing the place, Zimmerman is following him to make sure nothing bad happens. Martin turns on Zimmerman and assualts him, Zimmerman, in fear of his life, uses his gun.

    The gaps between these two aren’t that huge, and I reckon the reality probably lies in between. My guess would be something like:
    – Martin was no angel, he was wandering a bit aimlessly, perhaps casing places, perhaps just wandering as teenage males sometimes do
    – Zimmerman suspected he might be up to no good (rightly or wrongly). The police told him not to intervene, but he’s a neighbourhood watch guy, they probably get told that all the time. So he follows Martin
    – Martin is a teenage male, full of himself. He’s not going to back down, not going to just leave the area. He has as much right to be walking those streets as anyone else. So he confronts Zimmerman instead of backing down, going about his business elsewhere
    – Zimmerman isn’t a hell of a lot older, he’s got some testosterone flowing too, and he has a gun. He’s the neighourhood watch guy, he’s not backing down. He stands up to Martin, tells him he has no business there.
    – They get into a fight, it doesn’t go so well for Zimmerman (grass stains, abrasions). He pulls his gun and kills Martin.

    So, who’s in the right, who’s in the wrong? Bottom line, as with many of these things, two youngish men, fuelled on testosterone, who think they’re in the right and won’t back down for anyone. And now one of them’s dead. Not unusual.

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  63. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    The authors of the affadavit have a combined 44 years of handling homicides. Dershowitz has handled 15 in his entire career.

    Dershowitz complains that no information pertinent to the defence is included. The affadvit makes mention that it is not a complete rendition of all the facts in this case. The time for a defence to present information is at trial. The probable cause affadavit is to determine if there may be a case to answer. Dershowitz seems very quick to jump to defence of Self Defence for Zimmerman. Why was he not asked if the provisions of self defence could have applied to Martin?

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  64. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    The plea bargain system is well entrenched in the US though, so we see the two sides approaching from ‘innocent’ and ‘murder’ and will maybe end up with some kind of manslaughter conviction.
    I agree about the elected judges and prosecutors.

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  65. backster (2,171 comments) says:

    The video I saw of Zimmerman being led away by Police clearly showed an open wound to the back of his head. The mass media repeatedly show photos the victim as he was several years ago small and slim. That of Zimmerman is also from several years ago when he was overweight, he is now slim.

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  66. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Zimmerman is sadly another martyr to black racism and black violence.

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  67. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Another excerpt from an Op-Ed by Alan Dershowitz

    If Zimmerman initially provoked the deadly encounter, then he cannot invoke any “stand your ground” defense. He would then be under a legal obligation to “exhaust … every reasonable means to escape.”

    Though this statute is anything but a model of clarity, it does suggest that whoever “provokes” a deadly encounter has a heavy burden of justification in claiming self-defense. But the statute doesn’t define “provokes,” and that ambiguous word may hold the key to the outcome of this tragic case.

    If provocation is limited to a physical assault, and if Zimmerman’s account that Martin blindsided him with a punch is believed, then Zimmerman did not provoke the encounter. But if provocation includes following the victim and harassing him, then Zimmerman may well qualify as a provocateur. Moreover, a jury may believe that Zimmerman started the physical confrontation by grabbing Martin. This would almost certainly constitute provocation.

    But to complicate matters further, even a provocateur has the legal right to defend himself under Florida law if he can’t escape and if he is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, as Zimmerman claims he was.

    All this goes to show how factually driven this case is under Florida law. And we don’t yet know all the facts. The special prosecutor, who has said she will not use a grand jury to decide whether to indict Zimmerman, has an obligation to consider all the evidence and to apply the law to the facts.

    All she needs in order to indict is probable cause that a crime has been committed. A jury that ultimately decides whether the defendant is guilty needs much more: proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But what if a prosecutor concludes that there is both probable cause and a reasonable doubt?

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  68. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Wouldn’t the martyr be the dead man, by definition, Lee?

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  69. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Sharpton and Obama Prostituting Martin Shooting” by Mychal Massie

    “Where was Sharpton when Channon Christian, 21, and Christopher Newsom, 23, were kidnapped, brutally tortured, raped, and murdered in 2007? Newsom and Christian had been guilty of enjoying a dinner date and minding their own business, when they were carjacked and bound, then taken to a rented home and horrifically raped, sodomized, beaten, tortured, for hours. According to the testimony of the Knox County Acting Medical Examiner Dr. Darinka Mileusnic-Polchan at the subsequent trial of Eric Boyd, Newsom was repeatedly sodomized with an object and then blindfolded, gagged, arms and feet bound and his head covered. Barefoot, he was either led or dragged outside the house to a set of nearby railroad tracks. He was shot in the back of the head, the neck, and the back, and his body then set on fire.

    Channon’s death came only after hours of sexual torture, medical examiner Mileusnic-Polchan testified. Channon suffered horrific injuries to her vagina, anus and mouth. She was not only raped but savaged with “an object,” possibly a broken chair leg, the doctor testified. She was beaten in the head. Some type of chemical was poured down her throat, and her body, including her bleeding and battered genital area, likely scrubbed with the same solution – all while Channon was alive, the forensic expert said. She was then “hog-tied,” with curtains and strips of bedding, her face covered tightly with a small trash bag and her body stashed inside five large trash bags before being placed inside a large trash can and covered with sheets. Channon died slowly, suffocating, the medical examiner said. Didn’t Sharpton, Obama, the race whores think this young couple was worthy of the wall to wall coverage? Didn’t Obama and Sharpton think what was done to them by four black males and an 18 year-old black female warranted their condemnation?

    Furthermore, we were told the murders of Christian and Newsom were not racially motivated, they were called a random act. If what happened to that couple was a random act, how in the good name of heaven above can Sharpton, the media, the lawyers and Obama call the Martin shooting racist? Oh, I know, the victims were white.”

    http://mychal-massie.com/premium/sharpton-and-obama-prostituting-martin-shooting/

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  70. cha (4,014 comments) says:

    Yeah Lee01, black people in Florida have always been able to murder white people with impunity.

    Go watch a miracle, moron.

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  71. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Yeah Lee01, black people in Florida have always been able to murder white people with impunity.”

    Not with impunity, but certainly with little condemnation from black politicos or the MSM.

    Your a brainwashed cult member cha. Think for yourself.

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  72. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    The torture and murder of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom is one of the most vile and horrific crimes I have ever heard of.

    Yet how many people posting on this thread have ever heard of them?

    No?

    Gee. I wonder why???

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  73. Weihana (4,537 comments) says:

    Lee01,

    14000+ people are murdered in the US every year and you’re shocked that no one’s heard of two of them?

    I agree that in the case you cited, from what I just quickly read on Wikipedia, it’s plausible there was a racial element to it. That’s just how people act in groups even if they don’t belong to an obvious hate group.

    But again, 14000+ people are murdered in the US every year and few of them get widespread coverage. Sometimes you get a pretty white girl who dominates the headlines for months, or you get a story like this where there are hints of racial profiling and it gets headlines as well.

    The media’s number one goal is sensationalism. I don’t really think they play favourites, they just pander to all our prejudices and stereotypes the best they can.

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  74. simonway (387 comments) says:

    Also note how Zimmerman is described as “white and Hispanic’ rather than “Hispanic”.

    Because “Hispanic” is not a race, it’s an ethnic/national grouping that includes multiple racial groups. In the United States, white Hispanics, non-white Hispanics, and non-Hispanic whites are usually counted separately and considered separately in demographic studies. The phrasing used in the article is not at all out of the ordinary.

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  75. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “14000+ people are murdered in the US every year and you’re shocked that no one’s heard of two of them?”

    The issue is the disparity between the two cases with regards to the media hype and “outrage” of black community leaders and politicos.

    As I said, the response to this case by much of the black community, black politicians and the mainstream media is hypocritical and racist.

    When those same politicos and community leaders start taking responsibility for the huge levels of black crime and violence I will take them seriously.

    In the mean time racial profiling of young black men is perfectly legitimate. They are statstically likely to be involved in violent crime, and anyone on the street at night would be a fool not to be very cautious and suspicious.

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  76. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    What does ‘statistically likely to be involved in violent crime’ actually mean. One in ten, one in a hundred, one in a thousand?
    Enough to make it a good idea to get your gun and follow any young black man down the road just in case?

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  77. Bob R (1,374 comments) says:

    Alan Dershowitz:

    ““You’ve seen the affidavit of probable cause. What do you make of it,” Smerconish asked. “It won’t suffice,” Dershowitz replied without hesitation.

    “Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”

    Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz.

    Dershowitz went on to strongly criticize Corey’s decision to move forward with the case against Zimmerman. “I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and overcharged. This case will not – if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.”

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/harvard-prof-alan-dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/

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  78. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “What does ‘statistically likely to be involved in violent crime’ actually mean”

    68% of all violent crime arrests are of Blacks. Blacks commit 8 times as many assaults as Whites. Blacks commit 14 times as many murders as Whites. Blacks commit 19 times as many armed robberies as Whites.

    All categories of violent crime considered, Blacks are found to be 50 times more violent than Whites. Now, in order to understand the enormity of that discrepancy, one need only translate it into a percentage: Blacks are 5,000% more violent than their White counterparts. If a neighborhood is only 8% Black, the average White victim of violent crime in that area will still almost certainly identify his or her assailant as Black — and for that matter, so will the Black, Brown, and Yellow victims. While Blacks make up roughly 14% of the American populace, half are women, and another margin is made up of the very old and the very young, so the egregiously offending demographic (Black males, age 13-35) make up about 3% of the U.S. population.

    Incredibly, that 3% of the population is responsible for more violence than all other people in the country combined.

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  79. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Lee01.

    The murder you refer to is a vile and horrific crime. No doubt. However, referring to it to justify the argument that this murder is being politicized runs the risk of politicizing that murder.

    Massie however, misses one salient point. In the cases he refers to, where blacks killed whites, the perpertrators were arrested, convicted and imprisoned. Justice was served.

    The person who shot Treyvon Martin was not even arrested.

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  80. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    The media will be showing whatever photos they have available which is far from unusual.
    Alan Dershowitz is overplaying the affidavit and its qualifier;
    ‘The facts mentioned in this affidavit are not the complete recitation of all the pertinent facts and evidence in this case but are only presented for a determination of Probable Cause for Second Degree Murder.’
    He picks out some objections of things which are included and overlooks the glaringly obvious narrative that supports the charge. I think he’s the one overcooking things, trying to sanitise some critical features by saying other things should be mentioned, but the affidavit was abridged and accepted with its qualifier.

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  81. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “The person who shot Treyvon Martin was not even arrested.”

    Because there is no evidence at this point that he committed a crime.

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  82. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “The media will be showing whatever photos they have available which is far from unusual.”

    They had more recent photos availiable, but they showed Martin in a less than flaterring light, so they deliberatly chose the one that makes him look angelic and innocent, just as they edited Zimmerman’s call to the police to make it sound more racist and damming.

    The real Martin was “No-Limit-Nigga”, with gold teeth and a history of theft and drugs.

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  83. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Lee
    Your statistics don’t actually back up the point you are struggling to make. You said young black men are statistically likely to be involved in violent crime. For that statement to make any sense, you need to relate it to the likelihood that any individual is a criminal or not. So what do you estimate the chances are that a young black man walking at night in Sanford is committing a violent crime (or about to)?

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  84. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Your statistics don’t actually back up the point you are struggling to make.”

    Of course they do.

    ” If a neighborhood is only 8% Black, the average White victim of violent crime in that area will still almost certainly identify his or her assailant as Black — and for that matter, so will the Black, Brown, and Yellow victims. While Blacks make up roughly 14% of the American populace, half are women, and another margin is made up of the very old and the very young, so the egregiously offending demographic (Black males, age 13-35) make up about 3% of the U.S. population.

    Incredibly, that 3% of the population is responsible for more violence than all other people in the country combined.”

    “So what do you estimate the chances are that a young black man walking at night in Sanford is committing a violent crime”

    According to the above stats, VERY LIKELY.

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  85. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Lee01

    I have no idea what the media may have deliberately done, it’s only speculation. What photos were published will have no bearing on any subsequent trial. To me it’s not an argument about the media or what they do, or at least what some of them allegedly do.

    You might be justified in mentioning other crimes that haven’t received such publicity as this case, but in a country where 1000s of homicides are recorded each year this is a case under the spot light.

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  86. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘Very likely’ is not exactly a precise estimate. I should have thought you could work it out by obtaining information on the prevalence of violent crime in Sanford and making an estimate based on the demographics. But I’m not asking you to be so precise, just a bit more than ‘very likely’, say with a factor of ten. So what are chances are that a young black man walking at night in Sanford is committing a violent crime (or about to)?
    a. Certain (1 in 1)
    b. Almost certain (1 in 10)
    c. Possible (1 in 100)
    d. Not very likely (1 in 1000)

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  87. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Lee

    Do you think your statistical analysis would justify Zimmerman pursuing a young black man because in his eyes, he was up to no good, even though he was returning to where he was living?

    Do you really think Zimmerman should be let off, because, statistically, Martin was possibly up to no good?

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  88. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    slightly
    We’re just trying to establish the parameters of Lee’s statistical analysis of the case at the moment…

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  89. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @Nostalgia-NZ

    “To me it’s not an argument about the media or what they do, or at least what some of them allegedly do.”

    I beg to differ.
    This case is about five things.
    1. The killing of a teenager. Sadly enough, the killing of a ‘black’ teenager is not that unusual in the states. The trial will (Hopefully) bring out the facts.
    2. The usual race-baiters and race hustlers such as Jackson, Wright and Sharpton who want to make this a ‘black and white’ thing.
    3. The racist vigelante groups such as the Black Panthers who seem to be able to make outrageous statements without any consequences.
    4. Politicians such as Obama trying to politicise the situation.
    And most of all….
    5. The media sensationalising and DELIBERATELY falsifying information to foment riots. In one case this has already lead to another assault.

    The MSM has shown itself again to be a untrustworthy, irresponsible, sensationalist, race-bating pack of vultures.

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  90. SGA (1,026 comments) says:

    @Lee01 5:10 – “Incredibly, that 3% of the population is responsible for more violence than all other people in the country combined.”

    Certainly the crime *rate* is significantly higher for blacks than whites in the USA, but where are you getting the figures to justify your claim above?

    From the FBI for 2010

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-43

    Crime – Whites – Blacks
    Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter – 4,261 – 4,209
    Forcible rape – 10,178 – 4,925
    Robbery – 37,906 – 48,154
    Aggravated assault – 202,275 – 106,382
    Other assaults – 659,171 – 318,117

    (and I’ve left off the native american, asian, and pacific islanders – together they account for a further 2-3% in each case).

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  91. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    @Lee01: “68% of all violent crime arrests are of Blacks. Blacks commit 8 times as many assaults as Whites. Blacks commit 14 times as many murders as Whites. Blacks commit 19 times as many armed robberies as Whites.”

    I’m amazed that you are continuing to peddle these outright lies, even though I fisked them on an earlier thread. Here’s the actual data from the FBI’s 2010 uniform crime reports: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-43

    They show that 59.3% of arrests for violent crimes are “white” suspects. 38.1% are of “black” suspects. 69.4% of all arrests for all offences are of “white” suspects. 28.0% are of “black” suspects.

    I invite other commentators to judge what Lee01’s continued reliance on information that he’s been shown is demonstrably false says about the qualities of his arguments (as well as his basic views on black people).

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  92. SGA (1,026 comments) says:

    @AG – snap

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  93. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Weihana
    3.40

    ‘Definitely a reason not to have elected prosecutors and judges.’

    I’ve forgotten for a moment her name, but do you imagine the woman prosecuting Dotcom is not considering the advances a successful prosecution might make to her career? An advance, oddly enough, that would overlook the number of mistakes already in that case and the likelihood of the fortune it will cost NZ. And isn’t it the case that ‘good’ prosecutors are often elevated to the bench, do you think they’re unaware of that. I recall Morris who oversaw the prosecution of Arthur Thomas rising to become a High Court Judge and didn’t we many years ago see a photo of him simulating how ‘Arthur’ shot through louvre windows into the lounge or kitchen of the Crewe home? Wasn’t that a brilliantly portrayed scenario offered to go deep into the public mind of Arthur’s ‘guilt’ along with planted cartridge cases in the nearby garden?
    The irony is not lost to me that Paul Davidson, the prosecutor of Watson, is now defending Dotcom. Perhaps the American system is more transparent that ours, who knows.

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  94. AG (1,827 comments) says:

    SGA,

    Yeah – as I say, I’ve already had this “argument” with Lee01 (in the context of his claim that more whites are the victims of hate crimes than blacks … which then degenerated into him saying his belief was a better basis for knowing the truth than any statistics, and anyway, you can’t define what a hate crime is). So I’d caution against engaging too deeply with her/him. She/he just doesn’t like black people.

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  95. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Holy cow, I was taking Lee’s numbers seriously. I’ll add another option for him to select from:
    e. Highly unlikely (1 in 100,000)

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  96. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Lee – “14000+ people are murdered in the US every year and you’re shocked that no one’s heard of two of them?”

    That is a ridiculous argument. There aren’t 14000 crimes like Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom. It’s probably not exaggerating to call it the most horrific crime of the year, and it really should have caused an outraged media storm. And yet a very ordinary scuffle-gunshot-one-person-dead is apparently far more newsworthy, as long as the mainstream media can pretend there’s a racial angle that they want to push.

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  97. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    PIA
    I’m not sure that it is as simple as that. News media attention can be quite random and fickle. I think in this case the family’s outrage that Zimmerman had not been charged (wasn’t there a petition of some kind?) led to the media attention. The added interest is the controversial law in Florida.
    The idea that the murders of Christian and Newsom weren’t reported is a bit overwrought.

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  98. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    It will be interesting to revisit these pages as facts are revealed in court. I fear DPF will have to scrape egg off his face. I’ll look forward to that.

    My earlier comments were carefully worded. On the other hand, DPF soaks up right wing fiction and turns an innocent young victim into the possible villain. It’s repugnant.

    Even if acquitted, Zimmerman’s problems are far from over. There is considerable pressure to charge him under Federal hate crimes legislation. And legal action may be brought against the homeowners association who allowed Zimmerman to stalk the neighbourhood with his gun at the ready.

    Somone asked what Martin was doing in the area. The answer is that his father’s girlfriend lives in the compound. Martin was visiting her, and had just popped out to get his iced tea and skittles.

    The fabrications inundating this thread are remarkably similar to the tactics of the climate change deniers – just make up mud, hoping that some will stick.

    Now an uncontroversial fact: prior to the introduction of the “shoot first” law the average yearly unjutifiable homicides in Florida was 12. Now it is 36. Hello Houston, we have a problem.

    And major sponsors of the shadowy ALEC organisation, who framed the “shoot first” law and drove its introduction are running away in droves as the weight of public opinion bears down upon them (and their profits).

    I’m sure when I revisit I will see that when I say white, many comenters will read black (no pun inttended).

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  99. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “My earlier comments were carefully worded.”

    I thought that fat lying fucktard Breitbart had died and gone to hell!
    Is that scum-sucking blog being kept going by someone else?

    Fuck, there are some disgusting people on this blog!

    I can’t believe you are so fucking stupid. This is a case of a young kid executed in cold blood because of the color of his skin. Autopsy showed Martin was not on drugs. He was on the phone to his gf when he was shot – he was screaming for help.

    You wankers are pathetic. A mature, much, much bigger armed man kills an unarmed kid who was doing his best to run away from the pistol toting’ thug.
    You should listen to his last conversation with his girlfriend. He was trying to put Zimmerman off when he pulled hid hood up.
    Zimmerman shot him because the boy was black with a hoodie. Zimmerman stalked him, pure and simple.
    Second degree murder will still put him away for a long time. Good.
    Jeez, this is a cesspit.

    The prick should have been changed with first degree.

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  100. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    My earlier comments were carefully worded.

    So you actually put effort into something that was wildly at odds to the truth? For example, stating that there were no witnesses, when the media have found several.

    Reminds me of the time someone praised the “research” of some idiot who’d simply read the media regurgitation of a fleeing rapist’s spin, when the publicly available court documents directly contradicted him.

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  101. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Here is a better backgrounder than Fox News and whatever other Murdoch outlet you guys dribble over:

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/walking_while_black_the_killing_of_trayvon_martin_20120322/

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  102. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Thanks OA

    You reminded of a mistake that I should correct: there is no recording of the call between the boy and his girlfriend. My comments were from an interview with her.

    I stand by the rest of my comments, thanks.

    As the great Noam Chomsky once said, resistance can be ugly.

    You guys need a lot of resistance!

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  103. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    The people who insist on spinning a Hispanic into a (“obviously” racist) white person are really starting to make me angry.

    Fact is, even if he *were* white he *still* may have not acted out of racism. And he is Hispanic, which in spite of the fact that Hispanic can also be white, is a different grouping from what are in the US considered “white”.

    And the fact is, no matter what sort of abuse people chose to throw around, the fact remains that witness statements *do* have plenty of room for Martin to have been the aggressor.

    But frankly, in light of Zimmerman’s history, people trying to paint him as a crazed white vigilante should be outright ashamed.

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/04/zimmerman-demanded-discipline-in-2010-race-related-beating-for-officers-who-investigated-martin-shooting/
    ————————–
    After Justin Collison surrendered himself to authorities, the Sanford Police Department struggled to hold its officials accountable. A lengthy investigation conducted by the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office concluded that the police officials involved did not offer Justin Collison “preferential treatment.”

    Still, according to members of the Zimmerman family, George printed and distributed copies of fliers on bright fluorescent-colored paper demanding that the community “hold accountable” officers responsible for any misconduct. TheDC has obtained a copy of one of those fliers.

    “Do you know the individual that stepped up when no one else in the black community would?” the Zimmerman family member asked in the letter to the NAACP’s Clayton.

    “Do you know who spent tireless hours putting fliers on the cars of persons parked in the churches of the black community? Do you know who waited for the church‐goers to get out of church so that he could hand them fliers in an attempt to organize the black community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8th, 2011 at Sanford City Hall??”

    “That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN,” the letter insisted. “Ironic isn’t it?”

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  104. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    scrubone, as I understand it, there was no eye witness to the beginning of the altercation. There some folks inside their houses who heard various noises. I still haven’t heard of confirmation of the accusation that Martin assaulted Zimmerman and banged his head up and down on concrete. Read the report above.

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  105. Johnboy (16,529 comments) says:

    Hope you are not picking on Zimmerman because of his name Luc? :)

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  106. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    A mature, much, much bigger armed man kills an unarmed kid who was doing his best to run away from the pistol toting’ thug.

    But no one is defending that. In fact, I’m not sure that anyone who wants to be taken seriously believes that. Certainly if his family believed that, they certainly would not be happy with the ruling out of 1st degree murder charges – I know I woudn’t.

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  107. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    “Here is a better backgrounder… ”

    Bwahahaaaaaa… what total bollocks! Its a link to an opinion piece written by a paperback author! But true to form, the master propagandist is up to his old tricks again…. if it doesn’t support his own particular version, then it must be wrong.

    The versions of events described by the self appointed super sleuths here is astounding. Surely the logical thing to do would be to wait until the FACTS emerge – rather than promote extremist views, opinion pieces and ‘witness statements’ supporting each side.

    Pffftttt….

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  108. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    There *are* witness interviews in the media which appear to establish that Zimmerman *was* on the receiving end of a beating.
    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/neighbor-defends-george-zimmerman-03302012
    ———————–
    The neighbor is talking for the first time about what he saw on George Zimmerman’s face less than 24-hours after Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

    “I saw George. He was banged up. His head had two big bandages, that weren’t flat, had a bump on them,” the neighbor, who did not want to be identified, said.

    He described where the injuries were.

    “I seen him have a big bandage on his nose and his nose swollen. On the side, where his eyes were at, it was swollen,” he said.

    He points out exactly where on a picture.

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  109. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Also, I’d love to hear Luc et al’s condemn Spike Lee, who sent a lynch mob around to the home of a retired couple.

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  110. big bruv (13,887 comments) says:

    I wonder how many black people killed whites in the states over the last few weeks?

    And I also wonder why they were not called “racist killings”?

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  111. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Surely the logical thing to do would be to wait until the FACTS emerge – rather than promote extremist views, opinion pieces and ‘witness statements’ supporting each side.

    Agree. The man has now been charged, and I agree with that *provided* that it is on a careful examination of the evidence, rather than because of public pressure.

    My personal biggest concern is people like Other_Andy above who’s caught onto the first flush of “it’s a race shooting!!!” and hasn’t paused to see if there might be some other aspects to this – which there most certainly are. In fact, a member of one media org (NBC I think) has resigned because they edited a tape to make the guy sound racist.

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  112. Johnboy (16,529 comments) says:

    If they were black people, like say Sammy Davis Junior BB, Luc would be on to them mate! :)

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  113. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    I can’t be bothered pulling out the stats, but most murders in the states are intra-race.

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  114. Johnboy (16,529 comments) says:

    I’d have thought that most murders in the states were inter-family scrubone.

    Just like here! :)

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  115. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    The Orlando Sentinel (not Fox news) published an item last week, this was the gold quote:
    One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

    So yes, according to this non-Fox source, Zimmerman was on the receiving end.

    Still trying to find the video I saw of a witness interview from the day after – well before this thing blew up.

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  116. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Zimmerman with that big old fat pistol in his belt crying for help.
    How quaint.

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  117. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Ah, that’s where I saw the stats.
    http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/03/inconvenient-narratives-in-the-martin-case/

    Also reminded me of something else I’d forgotten: Zimmerman’s a registered Democrat.

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  118. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Zimmerman with that big old fat pistol in his belt crying for help.
    How quaint.

    Only if you can’t understand that not everyone with a gun is looking for any excuse to shoot someone who looks at them the wrong way.

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  119. cha (4,014 comments) says:

    A time line of events and a collection of relevant documents and videos.

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  120. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    scrubone

    So the gunman was off guard, dismissing his reasons for calling the police about ‘suspicious’ behaviour and following the youth when he was told not to.

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  121. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ, if you find my comment hard to understand, I’ll remove the double negative.

    People who carry guns and work with the police usually don’t wave their guns in front of people’s faces.

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  122. nasska (11,491 comments) says:

    scrubone

    ….”Zimmerman’s a registered Democrat.”…..

    They’re sacrificing one of their own for ‘the cause’. The socialists in the USA are unprincipled, publicity seeking scum just like our home grown ones.

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  123. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    LOL, love how we’re told to not listen to what Fox has to say, then someone points us to Mother Jones!

    Love this completely unbiased headline:

    EXCLUSIVE: Zimmerman can still buy guns instantly, walk around most of America armed

    Er, and why wouldn’t he? (obviously written before he was charged, given he’s now in custody and not able to “walk” anywhere)

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  124. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Looking through the Mother Jones articles.

    The record of his dealings with the police has a nice “summary” blurb to make sure we know that this document shows just how evil he is.

    The letter about how he stood up for a victim of police aggression when no one else did is presented without comment, so you’d have to read it to realise the good deed he did.

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  125. cha (4,014 comments) says:

    The timeline on one page sport. That is all.

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  126. gump (1,647 comments) says:

    I guess it must be a quiet night in the provinces – the usual racists and morons like Longknives are all out in force (real classy username there, mate).

    The outrage about the Trayvon Martin case comes from the fact that Zimmerman shot Martin on Feb 26 and wasn’t arrested or charged with a crime until April 11. During that six week period it wasn’t clear that Zimmerman would even face a criminal charge for the killing.

    In contrast, the Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom murders were incredibly horrific but the Police arrested the suspects within three days of the crime. The perpetrators were all charged, convicted, and received sentences ranging from 18 years to the death penalty.

    Charging Zimmerman was a good first step.

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  127. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    ‘scrubone (1,075) Says:
    April 13th, 2012 at 8:17 pm
    Nostalgia-NZ, if you find my comment hard to understand, I’ll remove the double negative.

    People who carry guns and work with the police usually don’t wave their guns in front of people’s faces.’

    So they’re all meek and mild and don’t rely on the pistol they have. Really they want to write a letter, but zimmy he didn’t follow instructions from the police to stay back because they were on the way, so maybe he thought it was at a peace conference and not disturbed that a ‘burglar’ was getting away.

    But one thing that seems consistent is that some people, like you, say that zimmy was screaming out for help. The vigilante was just a big sook with his big old gun, consistent with his attorney saying that he was weeping the last night away in his cell. I wonder who he was weeping for.

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  128. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ, the question is, is crying out for help consistent with Zimmerman’s story?

    The answer is, absolutely. If he was decked by a single blow as is the claim, he had every reason to cry out.

    But answer me this, because I’m genuinely interested: what is the run of events you envisage if you think that Martin was the one heard crying out?

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  129. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Worth a read on this topic: The Rules of Outrage — Or Why the Trayvon Martin Tragedy Divides the Country
    .

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  130. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Currently re-reading this.
    http://allergic2bull.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/donning-of-hood-is-not-consistent-with.html

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  131. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Here is another one:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/294779/10-things-we-ve-learned-trayvon-martin-tragedy-victor-davis-hanson

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  132. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Here’s the key witness:
    “The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.

    Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1ruo8uZ31

    So no one saw the actual shooting, but someone *did* see Martin attacking the guy.

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  133. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Calling DPF out:

    The great one said “the media” – a sweeping term, typical of propaganda proponents – have retracted the accusation that Zimmerman called Martin a “fucking coon.”

    This link purports to be an accurate transcript of the 911 call Zimmerman made to the cops, and if one can’t hear the words “fucking coon” then one is a “fucking ******”, if you get my drift. :-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCvr9V2pig

    This is consistent with the reports from media I trust the most.

    However, the main complaint has been answered. After the Florida cops initially filed this in the justifiable homicide basket, the police chief has stood himself down and the case was reopened with a special prosecutor and a charge has been laid.

    This has been my main interest in the case. It will be interesting to watch the justice system at work. I’m sure there is a long way to go in this story yet.

    At least in the case of Kenneth Chamberlain, a Grand Jury has been assigned to the case in good time.

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  134. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    scrubone, the guy ran away and tried to avoid Zimmerman by using another entrance to the compound. Zimmerman hunted him down. Whether Martin tried to turn defense into attack, I don’t know. Hopefully, we will find out in due course. The original reports of injuries to Zimmerman appear to be falsified by a video released by the cops. This video casts grave doubts on Zimmerman’s side of the story.

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  135. Longknives (4,744 comments) says:

    Don’t like my name Gump??
    Or is it that you simply don’t like the truths I told about your ‘Angelic’ Trayvon regarding his ‘Gangsta’ obsession and abhorrent violent lifestyle??…(I hope you read the Twitter posts where this self-prosessed ‘Gangsta’ makes humiliating,degrading and disgusting comments towards his ‘Hoes’- Not exactly the normal behaviour for an alleged ‘straight A student’ supposedly on his way to being a possible future President! But hey- who am I to judge a young man apparently destinged for great things).
    I tell a few facts about Trayvon that his supporters seem blind to (that he was by his own admission a criminal, a Wannabe ‘Gangsta’ who called himself “No Limit Nigga” ) and I get called a Moron and a Racist. It’s sad when you try to bring a bit of balance and perspective into an argument and the best responses the dimwitted sheep can come up with are “You and a racist” and “You are a moron”.
    Oh and to criticise my name. I’m intrugued to hear why Gump made a snide remark about this? I suspect he knows little of History…

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  136. Feanor (38 comments) says:

    “I think you are trying too hard to be generous to the little prick who got shot.

    He didn’t just punch Zimmerman in the face. Witnesses report he then bashed Zimmerman’s head repeatedly on the concrete.”

    Police station video from the night of the incident show no injuries on Zimmerman’s face or head.

    And he never went to the hospital for treatment.

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  137. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Feanor, you’re repeating old lies. Once again, here’s ABC admitting the tape shows head injuries. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-O9MJQ9chQ
    That was the 2nd April. It’s not exactly breaking news.

    Here is the police report mentioning the injuries. Let me know if you have any trouble understanding “bleeding from the nose and the back of his head” and “zimmerman was given first aid” http://i.imgur.com/siAQi.jpg

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  138. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    scrubone
    9.28

    I can’t say I know the sequence of events. But I don’t believe an angry man, worried about ‘punks’ getting away with things, who has mentioned the number of recent burglaries,and armed was not the aggressor – he put himself in the role of aggressor when he followed Martin despite being told not to. Zimmerman, had wanted to join the police, had faced charges of assault against the police, wasn’t a registered security guard had a history of making emergency calls, was going to be crying out for help. Martin’s mother is obviously going to testify that it was her son calling out. I also heard the tape where Zimmerman said that Martin was coming toward him, no sounds of panic or concern, why – because he was armed.

    I also read about Zimmerman’s efforts against racism in his local community, at best that makes him contradictory, along with his desire to join the police, having some run in with the police, illegally assuming a role as a civilian watch, in fact operating like a police officer but not being prepared to obey the police because ‘they (the punks) always get away’ or something similar he said. As others have said earlier if the argument is about ‘standing your ground’ that seems to me to apply more so to Martin who was being followed, probably with Zimmerman speaking loudly enough to the police for Martin to hear and consequently understand that Zimmerman was onside with the police. Another point from earlier in this event was Zimmerman saying that Martin was walking and looking around, next time you see a person on a mobile phone note if they’re standing still or not.

    But hey it is America, maybe going after someone with a gun is fine – even when you know the police are coming and you’re told not to proceed.

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  139. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen (3,446) Says:
    April 14th, 2012 at 1:06 am
    ‘scrubone, the guy ran away and tried to avoid Zimmerman by using another entrance to the compound. Zimmerman hunted him down. Whether Martin tried to turn defense into attack, I don’t know. Hopefully, we will find out in due course. The original reports of injuries to Zimmerman appear to be falsified by a video released by the cops. This video casts grave doubts on Zimmerman’s side of the story.’

    As do reports copied above where a witness says they were asked by the police to change details of a statement.

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  140. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    This link purports to be an accurate transcript of the 911 call Zimmerman made to the cops, and if one can’t hear the words “fucking coon” then one is a “fucking ******”, if you get my drift.

    I’ve listened to that section a dozen times now. There is no way anyone can know for certain what he was saying (I’m convinced myself that whatever he said started with the letter “p”). It simply isn’t clear enough. People who hear coon, are people who want to hear coon, just like people who heard David Bain say “I shot the bastard” wanted to hear that. The fact that you are so dogmatic about it is disturbing, and says a lot about you and your state of mind on this.

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  141. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Police station video from the night of the incident show no injuries on Zimmerman’s face or head.

    No. What *is* true is that the video does not clearly show injuries. But the idea that a security camera can prove the *absence* of injuries is just silly. There are witness statements that he was beaten, and that he came out in bruises after the fact. His brother has also testified that even on the video, he does in fact look injured with a swollen nose.

    I’m no lawyer, but I don’t think that video is going to show up in court somehow. It is simply an attempt to fool those who don’t understand the above distinction.

    And he went to the hospital for treatment.
    Again, that proves nothing and is in no way inconsistent with witness statements provided to both police and media directly after the event.

    On the other hand, the witness on CNN stated that the fight was on grass. So his head was probably not bashed against the concrete though in the heat of the moment, he may have thought so.

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  142. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Luc you’re either dishonest ( well, we knew that already) or deaf if you think that says “coons”. The vowel sound is clearly “o” as in “open”, not “oo” as in “coon”, and the whole phrase sounds much more like “he’s fucking close” than any other possibility.

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  143. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    I can’t say I know the sequence of events. But I don’t believe an angry man, worried about ‘punks’ getting away with things, who has mentioned the number of recent burglaries,and armed was not the aggressor

    For the most part, he seemed very controlled in the 911 call. So I think that call counts against the idea of an angry vigilante.

    – he put himself in the role of aggressor when he followed Martin despite being told not to.

    You’ve made two leaps there.
    1. He followed him, that much is sure. But following is not aggressive in and of itself.
    2. He was not told not to. An order not to follow simply does not appear in the 911 call. He was told it wasn’t necessary, once. Were the operator concerned, she would have repeated the fact several times and in much stronger language.

    Zimmerman, had wanted to join the police,
    Another fact that keeps being trotted out as though it has only one interpretation.

    had faced charges of assault against the police,
    Agreed. But I note that people defending Martin decry similar digging into *his* background. Let’s be consistent here.

    wasn’t a registered security guard
    Not a registered acrobat either. Or a registered accountant. Or a registered…

    I think we can put that down as a registered red herring.

    had a history of making emergency calls,
    *facepalm*

    Of course he did, he was on the neighbourhood watch.

    was going to be crying out for help. Martin’s mother is obviously going to testify that it was her son calling out.
    Agreed.

    I also heard the tape where Zimmerman said that Martin was coming toward him, no sounds of panic or concern, why – because he was armed.
    You’re interpreting everything through the prism that Zimmerman was this authority hungry gun tooting racist.

    My thoughts on that part of the tape were that a) he did actually sound a little concerned and b) he was in his car and could simply drive away and c) was on the phone to the police. Had he been assaulted at that point, the place would have been swarming with hundreds of cops within minutes.

    I also read about Zimmerman’s efforts against racism in his local community, at best that makes him contradictory, along with his desire to join the police, having some run in with the police, illegally assuming a role as a civilian watch, in fact operating like a police officer but not being prepared to obey the police because ‘they (the punks) always get away’ or something similar he said.

    So he
    * Fought racism
    * Wanted to join the police
    * had a run in with the police
    * was in the neighbourhood watch

    All that sounds like is that he was interested in justice, but on one occasion had a run in with the police. That’s one contradictory fact.

    What he was doing was not illegal, and his role in the neighbourhood watch was not even self-appointed – and as I said above he did not disobey the police. Saying that he acted like a police officer is just spinning the facts to make them sound worse than they are.

    As others have said earlier if the argument is about ‘standing your ground’ that seems to me to apply more so to Martin who was being followed,

    I’m of the opinion that the SYG law was irrelevant. Zimmerman’s claim is one of self defense – acting as one being beaten up on the ground, with the aggressor on top and fearing his gun would be used to murder him.

    probably with Zimmerman speaking loudly enough to the police for Martin to hear and consequently understand that Zimmerman was onside with the police.

    I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. Martin’s side tends to rely on painting his perception of Zimmerman as someone who was “after” him, not someone who was working with the police.

    Another point from earlier in this event was Zimmerman saying that Martin was walking and looking around, next time you see a person on a mobile phone note if they’re standing still or not.

    He was supposed to be walking home, in the rain and gathering dark. Were that me, I would be making a bee line towards home, and if I thought someone was behind chasing me, I’d walk faster. So it’s hardly surprising that his behaviour was regarded as suspicious in an area that had been hit by burglars recently.

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  144. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    As do reports copied above where a witness says they were asked by the police to change details of a statement.

    You’ll have to point me at those directly. I’m not aware of these reports and I can’t find them above.

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  145. cha (4,014 comments) says:

    Hmm.

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7773649&postcount=531

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  146. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Found this comment regarding the changed statement:
    Alex, there has been no recantation. A witness said police “corrected” her about which person was yelling, but that’s because she said the person in red was yelling and said it was the kid. Zimmerman was in red.

    As Zimmerman was smaller in stature and underneath and yelling, and dressed in red, I think the witness made a typical error.

    But the main witness who saw Zimmerman yelling for help has not recanted at all.

    I’ve actually seen people count as a recantation that this main witness actually said the opposite – that he came out and saw Zimmerman on top. This is a misunderstanging. The witness said the kid was already dead, and that Zimmerman was standing.

    So the witness positively identified that the guy in red was being pummeled, but was mistaken about which party that was.

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  147. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    cha, interesting find.

    It will be interesting to see if the media case switches to solid analysis like this – certainly no one’s doing themselves any favors looking for evidence in grainy videos and mutterings on tape. This is what’s annoying me – where people like Luc and Nostalgia-NZ spin together their own biases and then act like they’ve created an air-tight case.

    I’m coming to the opinion that Zimmerman may well have been in the wrong. He or his family do seem to have provided misleading statements at the very least.

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  148. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Hm, this doesn’t bode well.
    http://www.popehat.com/2012/04/13/how-not-to-draft-a-probable-cause-affidavit/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Popehat+%28Popehat%29

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  149. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    scrubone

    Hope the following is clear I’ve put my comments and your replies in commas.

    But first of all, I haven’t made a single comment about any racism aspect. It clouds the waters and is too emotional.

    ‘For the most part, he seemed very controlled in the 911 call. So I think that call counts against the idea of an angry vigilante.’

    A person can be controlled, which I admit his voice showed for the majority of the call, but can slip, which I believe he did when talking about people getting away with things and calling the ‘punks’ or whatever the word used was. To me he clearly identified Martin in that way, and everything that followed was because of that.

    ‘had faced charges of assault against the police,
    Agreed. But I note that people defending Martin decry similar digging into *his* background. Let’s be consistent here.’

    I wasn’t comparing the two men, or the man and the youth. I was sketching his apparent willingness to ‘engage.’

    ‘I also heard the tape where Zimmerman said that Martin was coming toward him, no sounds of panic or concern, why – because he was armed.
    You’re interpreting everything through the prism that Zimmerman was this authority hungry gun tooting racist.’

    Again, I’m not on the race issue – if there was one. But I am, to use your words, identifying him as authority hungry and gun toting.

    ‘probably with Zimmerman speaking loudly enough to the police for Martin to hear and consequently understand that Zimmerman was onside with the police.

    I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here. Martin’s side tends to rely on painting his perception of Zimmerman as someone who was “after” him, not someone who was working with the police.’

    I should have described that, as Zimmerman indicating having police support to put Martin on guard. That’s pure speculation and might not even happened at all, we don’t know yet.

    ‘So he
    * Fought racism
    * Wanted to join the police
    * had a run in with the police
    * was in the neighbourhood watch

    All that sounds like is that he was interested in justice, but on one occasion had a run in with the police. That’s one contradictory fact.’

    Well to me, it also sounds like the fellow in nz in the last couple of years who went on ‘calls out’ in the lower north island, think he even had the flashing light – but he wasn’t a member of St Johns or the fire brigade which ever it might have been – butting his nose in and pretending he had authority that he didn’t, some what conflicted.

    In conclusion I did hear on one of the tapes Zimmerman being told not to follow Martin, or that there was no need to. That bothers me because it puts him into a position of being seen to wanting to push on with a confrontation – even though as we know now the police were already on their way and which Zimmerman was told. I also mention that we’ve had 2 investigations so far, the first which is now treated as irregular and which resulted in a decision not to lay charges.

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  150. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    Crikey just read cha’s link above at 10.53.

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  151. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    Nostalgia: I believe that most neighbourhood watch people get told not to do what they’re doing. The police cannot be seen to be encouraging someone to get into any situation that might be dangerous.

    Same thing happens in rural NZ – someone sniffing around your property, call the police (who are 30 minutes away) and they’ll say “don’t do anything.” How many farmers do that? And if you picked an individual farmer who’d been burgled a few times, betcha you’d discover that he had a history of emergency calls, and the police had a history of telling him not to get involved. And no doubt he disobeys them and goes and tells whomever it is sniffing around his shed to bugger off. And no doubt he takes his 22 with him, and probably his dog, when he does it.

    This tells us nothing, it’s common. I hypothesise it’s similar for Zimmerman and any other neighbourhood watch type – they make emergency calls, they get told not to get involved. Zimmerman’s in his late 20s, what we have here is two young guys getting into a fight.

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  152. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    Well to me, it also sounds like the fellow in nz in the last couple of years who went on ‘calls out’ in the lower north island, think he even had the flashing light – but he wasn’t a member of St Johns or the fire brigade which ever it might have been – butting his nose in and pretending he had authority that he didn’t, some what conflicted.

    What the?

    He was in the local neighbourhood watch. Really, how hard is that to understand?

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  153. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    PaulL

    I agree about farmers for sure, also the advice given to callers not to engage. But here the police weren’t the ‘hopeful’ 30 mins away but merely minutes from what I can tell.

    ‘two young guys getting into a fight’ Why would Zimmerman call police then, could it be because he wanted to preserve his position, in case, or because he was going to use the pistol. I recall Martin’s girlfriend saying that she told him to run and his reply that he wouldn’t.

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  154. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    This tells us nothing, it’s common. I hypothesise it’s similar for Zimmerman and any other neighbourhood watch type – they make emergency calls, they get told not to get involved. Zimmerman’s in his late 20s, what we have here is two young guys getting into a fight.

    Nailed it.

    But what disturbs me is just how much of the condemnation of Zimmerman comes from people who are picking out minor things that could be read either way, and proclaiming a slam-dunk case while ignoring the bulk of actual evidence.

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  155. cha (4,014 comments) says:

    African American news sources and blogs.

    http://www.theroot.com/

    http://newsone.com/

    http://www.thegrio.com/

    http://field-negro.blogspot.co.nz/

    http://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.co.nz/

    http://angryblacklady.com/

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  156. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    scrubone
    12.41

    I read somewhere above last night that he wasn’t in any recognised watch group, that there are some type of registrations for them and he wasn’t registered anyway. You may keep calling a neighbourhood watch member but the synopsis declared him a vigilantee

    I note you have no comment that I have never used the race issue on this thread despite you saying that I did, along with your claims that I was trying to make purchase out of comparisons between the man and the teenager’s backgrounds. Did you read cha’s link at 10.53 – will you also lump that among your minor things?

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  157. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Nostalgia you just made that up. The neighbourhood watch groups are not required to be registered. The police offer them advice, they do not organise or control them. As far as I can tell, the only person above in the thread claiming the neighbourhood watch isn’t legitimate is you, along with all your other desperate nonsense about “not being a registered security guard” and every other irrelevant thing you can think of in the vain hope that one day you might have a point.

    http://hotnewshome.com/2012/03/23/trayvon-martin-and-the-million-hoodie-march-in-pictures/15001/attachment/15006

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  158. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    More hysteria. Try this for made up;

    ‘According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group—another fact the police were not aware of at the time of the incident.’

    Where did you get your made up stuff from – the usual sources?

    He was however a ‘captain,’ promoted as such by the local resident’s associate who would likely be the defendant should Martin’s mother bring civil charges for damages. Members of registered groups don’t carry firearms and are not permitted to be involved in pursuits.

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  159. Paul G. Buchanan (293 comments) says:

    I am a little late to this love fest but figured I would join the fray since I used to live in and still own a place in Florida and have actually been through that speed trap known as Sanford. I also am aware of the self-defense law (stand your ground), which is the also on the books in Arizona, where I lived before moving to Florida (and which I actually had an opportunity to make use of while dealing with a home invasion in Arizona).

    From what I have read and seen, this is the deal: an armed civilian member of a volunteer group, non-deputised but licensed to carry a concealed firearm, started following an individual in his neighborhood because of how that individual looked. He called 911 to report that the person he was following was behaving suspiciously and is told to stop following him. He then gets into an altercation with the individual, who is walking on a public footpath and is armed only with some Skittles and an ice block, then pulls his weapon and shoots the person dead. There is some dispute as to whether the deceased tried to disarm the shooter, but that would mean that the shooter had either shown or pulled the gun.

    Mr, Zimmerman was not defending his home from an intruder. He was, in fact, not defending anyone else when he engaged Mr. Martin. He engaged Mr. Martin for reasons he said were suspicious, although it appears that what was suspicious was that Mr. Martin did not appear to live in that neighborhood and had a profile that Mr. Zimmerman found to be of concern. Even if Mr. Martin initiated the confrontation (which remains highly questionable given the evidence presented so far), Mr. Zimmerman had a number of options available short of the use of deadly force. If Mr. Martin attempted to disarm Mr. Zimmerman (again, a contentious matter), the worst the latter would be charged with is manslaughter, not murder. Yet the prosecutor has decided to file murder 2 charges.

    Mr. Zimmerman is apparently going to argue self-defense. That will be interesting to argue if the full evidence shows that he targeted and tracked Mr. Martin for reasons that had nothing to do with the actual threat Mr. Martin posed to the public at the time, especially if Mr. Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation in spite of the warning to stop following the deceased (I have read reports that Zimmerman was returning to his car and was assaulted by Mr. Martin, but find these to be questionable at best because all indications are that Mr. Martin was concerned about being followed).

    The stand your ground law is designed to allow citizens to use deadly force when their lives are at imminent risk. It is specifically designed for people to use lethal force in self-defense in their homes or if accosted on the street by criminals clearly intent on harming them physically (and in many states that means that the criminal must be armed if lethal force is to be used on him). It is not designed to justify the actions of self-styled vigilantes who cruise the streets looking for “punks” to target and intimidate. And it is definitely not designed to allow armed individuals to use deadly force as a first resort in a physical confrontation with anyone, especially someone who is not armed.

    Although the likes of Al Sharpton are to be ignored when it comes to fanning the flames of racial division in this case, equally despicable are the efforts by scum like Sean Hannity to make it appear that Mr. Zimmerman was the victim. The bottom line is that Mr. Martin was minding his own business, doing nothing wrong while walking on a public street. He was carrying no weapons. And yet he was shot dead by someone took it upon himself to carry a firearm into a public place as a self-styled enforcer of some sketchy community standard that may or may not involve questions of age, race and/or dress. That is not what the “stand your ground” law is about.

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  160. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Nostalgia

    ‘According to Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch Program, there are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group—another fact the police were not aware of at the time of the incident.’
    Where did you get your made up stuff from – the usual sources?

    Tutko is from Washington DC and has no connection to the Zimmerman case. A better source is Sanford Police department person who liases with neighbourhood watch groups, one Wendy Dorival:

    “The Neighborhood Watch at Retreat at Twin Lakes, where Zimmerman lived and was chosen as coordinator by his neighbors, was formed in September, Dorival said. It is not registered with the national group, but there is no registration requirement. The Sanford Police Department provides training and community signs, and informs residents about crime trends and prevention.”

    Zimmerman raised no red flags during an organizational meeting Sept. 22, and no one had complained about him before the shooting, Dorival said.”

    He was however a ‘captain,’ promoted as such by the local resident’s associate who would likely be the defendant should Martin’s mother bring civil charges for damages.”

    Have you seen how shaky the ‘probable cause’ for Zimmerman’s arrest is? If anyone’s going to get sued it’s going to be for wrongful prosecution.

    Oh yes, and your mr Tutko acknowledges that registration isn’t the norm:

    “The neighborhood watch movement came together some 40 years ago through the efforts of the National Sheriffs’ Association. Chris Tutko, the national director for the program at the association, said there were 25,000 registered neighborhood watch groups in the United States today, and far more unregistered groups like the one in Sanford. “

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  161. Nostalgia-NZ (5,202 comments) says:

    I don’t think the Probable Cause affidavit is shaky, because of its qualifier. I’ve read two highly critical reviews of it. One of those however did note that Martin’s mother had identified her son’s voice as that of the person calling (screaming) for help. I don’t think the public interest in the case will see it thrown out because of the affidavit – but maybe they do things like that in America without considering the detail of evidence despite it being pointed out that it’s a brief of evidence which includes known facts of Martin’s death by gunshot, the admission of Zimmerman that he shot the teenager, and that he (Martin) allegedly called out for help.

    What Dorival said doesn’t clear things up for me. Was she saying the groups that Sanford PD provide training etc and sanctioned that watch members carry firearms, entered pursuits and disobeyed instructions from police? I can see any civil suit extending to police as a defendant. I don’t see how a previous arrest of assault and battery against a police officer wouldn’t have raised ‘red flags.’ Why weren’t the Sanford police concerned that Zimmerman had disobeyed an instruction when he was of the group they mentored is another question. Then along come questions raised by Paul Buchanan at 3.29. The relationship between Sanford Police and this group will be highly scrutinised for a number of reasons, not least to see if that relationship bore any weight with police decision not to prosecute. From what I read above Sanford police have had made some questionable decisions about not charging individuals linked to police for crimes in the area earlier.

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  162. BlairM (2,339 comments) says:

    Nobody looks good out of this whole situation really. But I support the Stand Your Ground law, and ironically, that’s what should protect Trayvon Martin and should have ensured a manslaughter conviction for Zimmerman. Of course, that’s not what they charged him with, and unless they have an all black jury, he seems certain to be acquitted. Clusterfuck doesn’t even begin to describe it.

    This situation was not about race, it was about a bored neighbourhood watch guy who started a fight and panicked when it got out of control. And now he is going to walk away and this kid will not get justice.

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