Dom Post and Trotter on Urewera sentence

May 29th, 2012 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

The Dom Post editorial:

The facts, as set out during sentencing by Justice Rodney Hansen, are these: in January, September and October 2007 Iti organised, and the others participated in, a series of camps, or rama, near Ruatoki. During the camps semi-automatic weapons, sawn-off shotguns, and sporting rifles were fired. In addition, Molotov cocktails were made and thrown at one of the camps. When police terminated their surveillance operation, three rifles, two of them semi-automatic, were found under a tarpaulin at Iti’s Ruatoki house, four rifles and a semi-automatic shotgun were found in the boot of Kemara’s car and in a caravan he occupied, and a .22 rifle was found in a backpack at a Wellington campsite occupied by Signer and Bailey.

I think the Police said a total of 18 firearms were found, and none of these people were licenses to have them.

A crime committed in pursuit of laudable objectives is just as much a crime as a crime committed for base motives. Those who have rushed to defend Iti and his fellows should ask themselves how they would react if a group of white supremacists was found to be covertly preparing for guerilla warfare.

A point I also made. We should condemn anyone who mixes politics with guns. Europe bears the scars of such legacies.

The sentences are just. They serve as a warning not just to Iti and his fellows, but to others of all political persuasions that political activity must fall within the bounds of the law.

The rule of law depends upon all being equal before the law.

The deterrent factor is important.

blogs:

The persons arrested as a result of “Operation Eight” were not held incommunicado, denied access to legal advice and tortured until they confessed. Nor were they tried and executed in secret. On the contrary, they were given a fair trial in an open court and only convicted on a number of firearms charges. Two of the accused were jailed for two-and-a-half years. Their convictions and their sentences are now being appealed.

 So, no. The “real life” Tame Iti is not the same as the fictional hero “Smith” played by Sam Neill. He was not fighting a murderous dictatorship. He was not being hunted down by US “advisers”. Nor were he and his followers being strafed and bombed by RNZAF Skyhawks.
What Mr Iti does appear to have been doing, however, was giving practical effect to the numerous discussions, extending over many decades, in which Maori nationalists and their far-Left Pakeha allies have weighed the pros and cons of organising a revolutionary Maori army.
Of course maybe there was another explanation, but we have yet to hear it – apart from the nonsense about peace activists wanting to work as security guards in Iraq.
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62 Responses to “Dom Post and Trotter on Urewera sentence”

  1. hj (6,350 comments) says:

    Ohh Noo!


    In the interests of supporting those who have been arrested, discussions were held last night at 128 Able Smith St.

    I am re-posting a statement verbatim from Indymedia Collective, as a response to those who are concerned or confused about what is being said in media and local gossip.

    Quote:

    This morning I opened the herald to see what the bullshit the media were spinning about the raids and saw a comment allegedly from a flatmate of one of the activists arrested yesterday in Auckland.

    I thought it would be obvious not to comment to the media but apparently not.

    I guess I just want to remind people not to talk amongst themselves and speculate and especially do not talk to the media. They are not your friends and they will use you to get the inside scoop.

    This was obvious in another article I got forwarded this morning from Bomber’s blog. He was sniffing around last night at Unite and had cornered some less experienced activists and was asking them what was going on…

    As someone quite rightly put it last night….’if not one talks, everyone walks’.

    It is not gossip it is fucken serious and some of our comrades are facing a long time behind bars, it would be good if people could remember that.

    Now is an important time to remember AND PRACTISE those good old rules about security culture and solidarity!

    The media are easy to ignore however the filth is a different story and it is likely that they will want to ‘talk’ to some people. If you are concerned about this and don’t know what your rights are etc… please seek the advise of an experienced activist who you TRUST. Maybe we need to have a workshop around this sometime in the next few days so that everyone is confident.

    Love and solidarity!
    http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2007/12/evidence-of-green-partyanarchist.html

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  2. alex (301 comments) says:

    Is it normal for a few firearms charges, in a rural area, to result in a jail sentence of two and a half years? No? Then why were they jailed for so long?

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  3. wreck1080 (3,730 comments) says:

    Being far left, I’d have thought Trotter would be supporting Tame Iti.

    Surprises always happen.

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  4. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    A crime committed in pursuit of laudable objectives is just as much a crime as a crime committed for base motives.

    I see Trotter has changed his position and now condemns the “noble corruption” which he had earlier endorsed for the Left (particularly Labour of course)

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  5. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    Alex is one of three things;

    1 an obvious troll

    2 ignorant and disingenuous

    3 a total fucking moron

    or possibily any combination of the above

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  6. mikenmild (10,703 comments) says:

    He could be all three.

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  7. tom hunter (4,407 comments) says:

    Of course maybe there was another explanation, but we have yet to hear it – apart from the nonsense about peace activists wanting to work as security guards in Iraq.

    You obviously missed the sidesplitting contribution to the other thread on this topic from hardline communist commentator “Yoza”:

    They were carrying out team-building exercises on private property

    “Elaycee” tagged this as Comedy Gold – but I think it reaches the level of Comedy Platinum.

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  8. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    It will be interesting to see what this guy gets. No doubt a serious jail sentence because he pursued the victim with a loaded gun and shot at him. He didn’t have a firearms licence.

    http://www.starcanterbury.co.nz/news/shotgun-pointed-to-frighten-victim-after-scrap-in-/1392079/

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  9. graham (2,214 comments) says:

    I vaguely recall that at one point, the explosives were explained as “they were making fireworks or similar for a kid’s birthday party” …

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  10. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    Perhaps they were training to protect Bill Liu from the organ harvesters ?

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  11. rouppe (916 comments) says:

    Did you not remember the defence lawyer (can’t remember which of the lawyers for which of the defendants) suggesting that the thermite bomb was for a childrens light show? I’m sure the molotov cocktails were for the equivalent of the flame-bursts you get a rugby games when a try is scored…

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  12. tom hunter (4,407 comments) says:

    Being far left, I’d have thought Trotter would be supporting Tame Iti.

    Sheesh. You really aren’t up with the play in lefty world – although I admit it does require reading the hideously funny comment sections at Public Address or The Dim Post.

    It would seem that – due to the coded racism of his hankerings for Waitakere Man (TM) – Chris Trotter has been placed in the same airbrushed archipelago as Tom Scott; formerly honoured, front-line members of The Left who have forsaken their ideological roots and degenerated into Old, Conservative White Men.

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  13. mikenmild (10,703 comments) says:

    Itds be nice to think that all left-wingers shared an identical set of beliefs, but such coherence in outlook is only generally assumed by opponents of particular political viewpoints.

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  14. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Andrew Mears was convicted of manslaughter and received only 2.5 years imprisonment. Maybe if Iti and his co-accused had killed someone and said they’d been shooting at deer, they might have got the same sentence?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4607426/Hunter-jailed-for-death

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  15. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Of course, killing someone doesn’t even mean you will end up in prison.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/6917340/Hunter-who-shot-mate-gets-home-detention

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  16. mikenmild (10,703 comments) says:

    ross, I think you need to do a little better than “ooh, he got 2.5 years for this and it was much worse”. Manslaughter sentences are well known for ranging from virtually nothing to many years. If you are trying to show that Iti and co were hard done by, you should try to do so by reference to similar cases.

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  17. tom hunter (4,407 comments) says:

    Itds be nice to think that all left-wingers shared an identical set of beliefs, but such coherence in outlook is only generally assumed by opponents of particular political viewpoints.

    Oh, I think after a century of observing countless schisms in the Left, we right-wingers are only too well aware of the slight differences in belief within the sect.

    That’s not the point. It’s the treatment meted out to those who deviate – and at the hands of their own comrades no less – that is at issue, and always has been.

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  18. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Manslaughter sentences are well known for ranging from virtually nothing

    Really? And are you suggesting that the offending of the Urewera 4 is equivalent to manslaughter?

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  19. mikenmild (10,703 comments) says:

    No ross, I’m suggesting you should try comparing the sentences given with similar crimes. In some respects, the Urewera offending IS less serious than some manslaughters though, and that is one reason for the sentences imposed.

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  20. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    Ross69 is one of three things;

    1 an obvious troll

    2 ignorant and disingenuous

    3 a total fucking moron

    or possibily any combination of the above

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  21. alex (301 comments) says:

    @Christopher Thomson – What a bizarre over-reaction in response to my completely legitimate question. Is that a normal sentence for firearms convictions? A yes or no answer will suffice.

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  22. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    Because it wasn’t a few firearms charges in a rural area. And you know it. Stop trying to minimise and deflect.

    Your position now allows me to suggest you are 2 and 3.

    However you may still be trying to be 1.

    I shall await further information before attempting to reach a full and final conclusion.

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  23. cows4me (248 comments) says:

    I don’t think the judge had any choice in sentencing Iti to the big house. If Iti had walked on this one what sort of message would it send to those contemplating something similar to these morons. How could the crown prosecution argue for prison sentences for those who give the the fingers to firearm laws in NZ. If Iti had walked the laws of NZ would be further eroded. Many of the problems we have in NZ are because a) laws have been relaxed b) laws are no longer enforced, why would firearm crime be any different. The judge in this case was between a rock and a hard place, respect for the law was on trial.

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  24. alex (301 comments) says:

    @Chris Thomson – Okay, and what charges were they actually convicted on? Was one of them ‘Participation in an Organised Criminal Group’? He was charged with that, yes, but not convicted. Therefore it is fair to say that he was convicted on a few firearms charges, and nothing else.

    And no, I’m not 1) (a troll). This is a genuine concern. I will leave 2) and 3) entirely in your judgement, though you seem to be pretty unwilling to engage with my original question, so I won’t put too much stock by your thoughts.

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  25. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    Alex and Ross69: Have either of you READ the 155 page affidavit sworn in support of an interception warrant?

    If you haven’t you bloody well should…And if you have, and still think this was ‘relatively minor offending’ then the accusations made by Chris Thomson at 3.48 are all true. If the cops had not intervened, it is virtually certain that one of these clowns would have killed someone…or had a bloody good go at it.

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  26. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    It would actually be interesting if some of my brothers at the criminal bar would care to comment on where these sentences are on the scale…

    And perhaps it is worth reminding some of the lefties that they weren’t acquitted on the more serious charges, there was a hung jury….and that could have been for any of a dozen reasons..a couple of Catherine Delahuntys on the jury would mean that whatever the evidence, no conviction would happen…

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  27. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    Be specific, no generalisations; do you know what they were charged with?

    Do you know what the maximum is for each charge?

    Why do we have maximum sentencing?

    Where do you see their offending sitting on a scale of intent and seriousness?

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  28. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    If someone posts the exact charges (brought under what sections) I can look it up…

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  29. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    And before you even bother I can assure you (and cite cases in support) that their sentences were appropriate in all the circumstances.

    Also, if you wish to counter argue, support with relevant case references.

    EDIT: not you David, that idiot I am asking. I am so over morons at the moment.

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  30. Northland Wahine (648 comments) says:

    I have conflicting thoughts regarding what the urewera 4 were up to, but skimming thru the affadivit isn’t favour able towards them.

    Best case scenerios… They were participating in some sort of over the top “paint ball ” exercise, with Molotov cocktails and semi automatics (tui billboard anyone?) or they were (insert snort emoticon here) training for security work. Given the lack of expertise, or lack of, one of these idiots would have ended up dead, by “friendly fire” or incompetence. Take your pick. And as he or she lay wounded in the urewera’s and were unable to be rescued, I wonder who would they have blamed? My guess, is anyone but themselves.

    At worst, they could have been training terrorists, and that doesn’t bare contemplating… And don’t forget, lone lunatics have been known to cause tragedies. Recent history reminds us of this…

    I’d rather be debating…this is what we gave avoided, rather than…what could be have done to prevent this.

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  31. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    Arms Act, s45 Possession of explosive 4 years max. s50 possession of a firearm, 3 years max.

    Their offences were at the high end of seriousness and their penalties were at the high end to match.

    Q.E.D.

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  32. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    I would also recommend Trotter’s piece on the Christchurch Cathedral. He nicely summarises the pride and vision of the 19th century settlers.

    “…There are some buildings whose power and dignity simply scorn the ravages of man and nature. Which is why, even if Hitler’s bombers had found their target, and the mighty dome of Sir Christopher Wren’s masterpiece no longer towered over the streets of England’s capital, I strongly suspect that Londoners, like the citizens of Dresden, would have rebuilt their beloved cathedral stone by stone – no matter how long it took, no matter how much it cost.

    What does that say about us? Why aren’t more New Zealanders willing to join with the 5,000 Cantabrians who marched on Saturday to save Christchurch Cathedral from the wrecker’s ball? Why isn’t the Opposition calling for the Government step in and “nationalise” this New Zealand icon? What is wrong with Prime Minister Key and his cabinet that they have not already – unbidden – promised Christchurch, and the country, that no matter how long it takes, no matter how much it costs, their beloved cathedral will be rebuilt?…

    The men and women who, in the second half of the Nineteenth Century, erected New Zealand’s greatest buildings, were persons of extraordinary confidence and vision. They were part of what New Zealand historian, Professor James Belich, calls “the settler revolution and the rise of the Anglo-World”. In just a few decades, from Chicago, Illinois to Melbourne, Victoria, their cultural and commercial certainty had summoned forth huge cities, replete with stunning architectural tributes to all the ages of Western Civilisation – from the Roman Republic to Byzantium; from Gothic spires to Baroque rotundas. Citizens who walked on streets that were barely as old as they were, looked up at buildings that might have stood for centuries. These towering manifestoes in stone declared proudly to posterity that their makers, the children of empire, had come to stay.

    Is that what now eats away at the decision-making of the New Zealand Anglican Church? In its new, bi-cultural, guise does it recoil in dismay from the thought of pouring both its reputation and its treasure into such an unequivocally imperial statement? Is that why the cathedral’s temporary replacement (cardboard being a so much humbler building material than stone) looks so much like a wharenui? Is the Bishop, mindful of her own homeland’s problematic relationship with the indigenous, unwilling to rush back in where white marble angels were once so unafraid to tread?

    The decision not to rebuild Christchurch’s iconic cathedral makes a profound statement about the entire city’s future. Those shattered stones are more than fallen masonry, they represent everything else that the earthquakes destroyed.

    As the Cathedral fares, so fares Christchurch itself.”

    http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/shattered-symbol.html

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  33. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    Wahine: Well said. History is in fact full of assassins or would be assassins who did not appear to be very impressive individuals… It doesnt take much intelligence or even skill to point a gun. It is actually frighteningly easy to get to get a weapon into parliament…and Key walks around in public all the time.

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  34. Colville (2,079 comments) says:

    Iti has previous form with firearms huh?

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  35. mikenmild (10,703 comments) says:

    We are probably much more likely to get an assassination from a lone nutter than any organised group. As the Urewera crowd have shown, getting into this stuff without attracting the atention of the constabulary is quite difficult. Wasn’t there a pyschopath who had a quite workable plot to assassinate the Queen when she was visiting a few years back?

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  36. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    CT: I agree with you. They were bloody lucky the jury couldnt agree on the more serious charges in my view…

    Mikey: I agree that a lone nutter is probably more probable…doesnt make these offences any less serious though.

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  37. mikenmild (10,703 comments) says:

    Colville – I think his previous conviction was discounted by the judge as an aggravating feature, so he was sentenced on the same basis as a first offender.

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  38. MT_Tinman (2,989 comments) says:

    BobR, other than proving Mr Trotter can’t count (or maybe he was counting limbs and useless appendages) I’m buggered if I can see your point or the relevance.

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  39. OTGO (512 comments) says:

    The NZ Police saved Iti’s and the others lives by proceeding with the charges after surveilance. If they hadn’t found them in the Urewera’s practising to be terrorists (and not security guards in Iran FFS) and they did get to complete their mission they would be dead by now.

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  40. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    OTGO: Quite so…but somebody else might be dead too….even one of Key’s protection squad

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  41. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    That chappie from Oamaru should get time.

    If he can convince the sentencing judge that he is an first offender with alcohol and mental issues the start point is 18 months but more typical offending usually gets around 2 – 3 years.

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  42. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    CT: If the media reports are right, and he slit the woman’s throat, manslaughter is going to be a big ask…

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  43. Northland Wahine (648 comments) says:

    Pretty difficult to accidentally slit someone’s throat…

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  44. Christopher Thomson (374 comments) says:

    My reference was the firearms charge, possession with criminal intent.

    I didn’t look at the other one.

    “ross69 (374) Says:
    May 29th, 2012 at 2:54 pm

    It will be interesting to see what this guy gets. No doubt a serious jail sentence because he pursued the victim with a loaded gun and shot at him. He didn’t have a firearms licence.

    http://www.starcanterbury.co.nz/news/shotgun-pointed-to-frighten-victim-after-scrap-in-/1392079/

    Which one is your reference?

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  45. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    CT: Sorry..I got confused…I am full of a cold and the brain isn’t working at its usual speed…

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  46. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Have either of you READ the 155 page affidavit sworn in support of an interception warrant?

    That would be the police affidavit. I wouldn’t have taken you to be so silly as to believe everything the police tell you. And judging by the verdcit in the Gwaze retrial, neither do some jurors.

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  47. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > In some respects, the Urewera offending IS less serious than some manslaughters

    Do explain with reference to particular killings that you have in mind.

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  48. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    ross69: So you think the cops would make up interecepted convos? You overlook the small point that the statements made would need to be played in court…or do you think the cops have actors on hand to fabricate conversations?

    And no, I dont believe the cops always play with a straight bat…

    But you didn’t answer my question: Did you read the affidavit? Or just decide that it was “all bullshit” and make up your mind based on Iti and Kemara’s ridiculous claims about what they were doing?

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  49. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    “Mr Mac Tai-Agassiz appeals against his conviction in the District Court at Opotiki on 26 March 2009 following his pleas of guilty to unlawful possession of a sawn off .22 rifle and a military style semi-automatic weapon. Mr Tai-Agassiz entered pleas to both charges. Judge Rollo convicted him and imposed concurrent sentences of 100 hours community work.”

    jdo.justice.govt.nz/jdo/GetJudgment/?judgmentID=165093

    Hmmm, so community work for unlawful possession of a gun and a military style automatic weapon. OK.

    Then there’s this guy who was convicted on 11 counts of unlawful possession of firearms and two charges of unlawful possession of explosives. He was also convicted of selling firearms to police. His hefty punishment was home detention and a fine of $4000.
    “Jenner, a licensed gun collector, was caught during a nationwide police sting, when more than 200 weapons were found at his Dinsdale home. They included a rocket launcher, grenade launchers, homemade claymore mines, live grenades and 15 kilograms of explosives.”

    http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/gun-dealer-given-home-detention/5/19824

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  50. Dexter (272 comments) says:

    And then there’s this guy who got two years jail for only possessing one gun. Compare that to Iti and co who handled and used multiple weapons over a long and sustained period.

    http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/news/Loaded-gun-jail-time-gangs-need-to-get-message/1385149/

    There are lots of similar sentencing examples but there are myriad of individual circumstances, aggravating or mitigating features in each case, which makes any comparison utterly redundant.

    Maybe you could try formulating your own coherent argument rather than just these irrelevant internet links you keep spamming?

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  51. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    I’ve come to this a bit late, but what Dexter says is very true. The circumstances of each instance of offending. You cannot take an offence an say each one is the same as any other. Each one exists on its own merits and should be judged that way. That is why sentencing can be such a difficult part of the process, although most people who are ignorant of the system don’t understand that.

    Comparing these guys with a gun dealer flouting the law isn’t like with like. The Urewera case is a lot more sinister, especially if you consider the use of Molotov Cocktails.

    Don’t forget that Iti will be eligible for parole in 10 months!

    Alex, my answer to your original question is that, given the circumstances, yes, the sentences do not appear to be excessive. But I haven’t looked at the sentencing digest and I suspect this is a pretty unique case. Also remember that in the last 10 years sentences have risen quite significantly, so comparing against older cases is difficult.

    I don’t see anything in the sentences that really concerns me, from a professional point of view.

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  52. mikenmild (10,703 comments) says:

    One really only needs to read the judge’s words:

    “The first is the lengthy period spanned by the offending and its repetitive nature. This was not the sort of one-off incident which commonly confronts the Court in sentencing for the unlawful possession of firearms. Nor was it the opportunistic offending often encountered in firearms charges. The offending in this case was characterised by premeditation and careful planning.”
    “The offending in this case was characterised by premeditation and careful planning… There were multiple weapons involved.
    The particular characteristics of a Molotov cocktail is highly relevant. While firearms training can be undertaken for legitimate purposes, the same cannot be said of exercises involving Molotov cocktails. Defence witnesses, including Mr Kruger, acknowledged that training in the manufacture and use of Molotov cocktails could not be reconciled with the peaceful purposes relied on by the defence to explain what happened at the camps.”
    “The firearms were used to train participants in military-style exercises. The intention was to train participants in the use of weaponry with the potential to operate for paramilitary purposes.”
    “Cumulatively these factors disclose much more serious offending than any of the cases referred to me in which sentences of up to three years imprisonment have been imposed for possession of firearms on a single occasion or during a short period.”

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  53. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    Where is the judgment Mikey? Can you put up a link to it??

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  54. Griff (6,756 comments) says:

    Reading the judges summery I would be a little more cautious if i were Mr Iti he may have his sentence increased as opposed to lightened under appeal

    As for ross69 et al
    1 an obvious troll

    2 ignorant and disingenuous

    3 a total fucking moron

    without doubt all three

    And I hope that if some fucktard that has been influenced by Iti and his conspirators lets of a bomb the collateral damage is as many of these apologists as possible

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  55. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    @David G: Try this link and look for R v Tama Wairere Iti under High Court Judgements:

    http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/from/decisions/judgments

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  56. David Garrett (6,400 comments) says:

    Elaycee: Many thanks…found it.

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  57. Random Punter (65 comments) says:

    They may not have been guilty of “participating in an organised criminal group”, but they were clearly participating in a disorganised criminal group. Why should their inability to organise their way out of a paper bag exculpate them of criminal behaviour?

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  58. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    F E Smith said: “That is why sentencing can be such a difficult part of the process.”

    Hmmm so Justice Hansen may have stuffed up?

    Mike, I referred to a case where a guy was convicted of having a rocket launcher, grenade launchers, homemade claymore mines, live grenades and 15 kilograms of explosives. Was there repetitive offending in there over a long time? I’d say so. Possessing a molotov cocktail seems pretty tame (excuse the pun) in comparison with live grenades, rocket launchers and explosives. The guy got home detention.

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  59. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > I would be a little more cautious if i were Mr Iti he may have his sentence increased

    Certainly if the Appeals Judges have in any way been influenced by the statements from people such as Judith Collins and the PM, that may well be the case. But I’d like to think they will not be taken in by such rhetoric.

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  60. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Then there’s this exchange from Q+A recently:

    Peter Marshall: Well, they were talking about causing damage, by way of explosives, to buildings. They were talking about killing people. They weren’t specific in relation to it. They actually talked about creating a lot of mayhem around the country. They talked about a revolutionary arm, if you like. We don’t know the specifics. But what we were convinced about, it wasn’t just idle talk. There was a lot of commentary that gave us as investigators and indeed, as I mentioned, the High Court judge also expressed alarm. We were, in a very considered way, very worried about what they might as a group or individually- They were getting themselves all psyched up, and we decided to take the action that you are well aware of.

    Interviewer: Commissioner, if it was that serious, why, then, did you allow the leader of the opposition at the time, our current Prime Minister, John Key, to visit the area two months before the raids took place?

    Peter Marshall: There was no suggestion that he was in any shape or form a target.

    Hmmm so the media report that Key was a target, yet the police claim he wasn’t, and indeed Key went into the Ureweras just weeks before the police raid. The Commissioner added that we “don’t know the specifics.” How curious that following months of covert filming and recording of conversations, there were no specifics.

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  61. Paulus (2,501 comments) says:

    Iti and his idiot friends would have probably shot one another acidentally.

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  62. F E Smith (3,302 comments) says:

    Hmmm so Justice Hansen may have stuffed up?

    Unlikely, and I don’t think he has.  But we will see what the CA says.

    if the Appeals Judges have in any way been influenced by the statements from people such as Judith Collins and the PM

    Even more unlikely, in fact pretty much not going to happen.

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