Iti sentenced to 30 months
May 24th, 2012 at 1:09 pm by David FarrarStuff reports:
The four – Iti, Urs Signer, Kemara and Emily Bailey – were found guilty of unlawful possession of military-style firearms and Molotov cocktails at training camps held in the Urewera Ranges in 2006 and 2007.
They were appearing in the High Court at Auckland for sentencing today.
Iti and Kemara were jailed for two and a half years. …
Justice Hansen was emphatic that despite a “Dad’s Army” aspect to the camps, their intent was serious.
“A private militia was being established. That is a frightening prospect to our society.”
The judge said one of those involved held extreme anarchist views and there was talk among the participants of killing, using explosives to kill, and attempts to “smash the state”.
At the end of the day, if their motives were not malign they could have applied for firearms licenses. They chose not to, and frankly there is no legitimate reason for anyone to have a molotov cocktail – let alone practice how to use them.
This will hopefully deter other like minded idiots in the future.
UPDATE: Related to this, Police Commissioner Peter Marshall explains why the Police took action in this case.
May 24th, 2012 at 1:23 pm
Iti and his co-offender will need to apply for parole as their sentences are over two years and they will have to show they are not at risk to society. There is therefore a risk they may serve the whole or perhaps all except the last 6 months. I assume they will appeal conviction and sentence.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Only 30 months? 30 years would be much better.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
No, no, no, DPF…this is just another example of a European justice system that just understand tikanga…as Tamati Kruger of Tuhoe helpfully explained on Nat Rad the other day, the tangata whenua in that part of the country rely on firearms for their kai….Quite how you would get close enough to a deer to blow it up with a molotov cocktail Tamati didn’t say….Perhaps one of our resident apologists might explain how that is done…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
We are here and we are never going away. Te Mana Motuhake o Tuhoe.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:44 pm
Signer should have being taken to the airport and sent back on the first plane from whence he came. I wonder if we went over and started throwing molotov cocktails in the Swiss alps, bet you wouldn’t get home detention. Why should we have to support a foreign shit stirrer.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Ah excellent! One of the iwi is here…so how do you got about hunting kai with a molotov cocktail? I always found it rather difficult to get close enough to shoot deer much less blow them up…
and I thought you WANTED to go away in the sense of having your own state? Do it tommorro as far as I am concerned!
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
Signer, like Russel Norman, is one of those wet wowser wanker males that would be laughed down in his home country.
The sooner NZ stops accepting their sad brand of activist bollocks, the better.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
So, mr anonymous Maori nationalist…give us some idea of the boundaries of the independent Tuhoe state you envisage? You’d be quite happy to be totally autonomous of course, no subsidies from the colonialist power you despise so much?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
David Garrett 1:51. No, David. It’s more like the Life of Brian. “What have the Romans ever done for us”? “Well, there’s the roads, law and order, public baths”. ‘Yeah, but adide from roads, law and order, and public baths; what have they done”?
cheers
David Prosser
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:00 pm
At least Crane Bros got some exposure for their suits.
“Tame Iti has revealed there was a flipside to his high-profile High Court trial – a brand new wardrobe, courtesy of menswear designers who used him as a walking billboard.
Iti, who returned to Ruatoki on Wednesday after the Urewera Four trial, said his dress in court prompted offers from menswear stores wanting him to wear their garments in the dock.
The Tuhoe activist said he viewed the court as theatre and he was happy to dress accordingly.
“That’s part of the performance,” he said.
He now has a selection of ties and vests as mementos of his four-week trial.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6629824/Court-dress-part-of-performance-Iti
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:00 pm
About time the law dealt to little boy and his nutcase friends
Vote:All tuhoe know the reality of itis plans The tribe has a long history of deceit and terrorism
The Tribe with no mana nga reokakatuhoe
May 24th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
30 months. !
Vote:Well I suppose the Goverment funded ‘Health’ Agency that employs him will find good reason to keep paying him. Given his absence is not voluntary.
May 24th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Griff: Please do tell us…I knonw no more than what is public knowledge and what my common sense tells me…
Still waiting for the Tuhoe technique of hunting deer (or anything other than humans or personal property) with a molotov cocktail…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:10 pm
David Garrett, thems is white mans deer ! (and pigs and trout!)
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:11 pm
Tuhoe_nation, no-one wants any lawful, productive member of society to go away. Criminals, yes.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
Colville: Yes, true….but let’s be magnanimous and let them keep them…just so long as they stay within the boundaries of their “independent state” and we don’t have to hear the endless moaning and whining any more….from a tribe that never even signed the bloody treaty ffs! I wonder if we would be giving a visa – even a transit visa – to Iti to get to Auckland airport so he can go swanning off overseas? I say include Wairoa in the independent state – shit we have to be generous – that gives them a port and an airport…But landing rights at Auckland? Well, that’s a matter for negotiation…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
I’d be fascinated to hear more of Tuhoe’s “long history…of terrorism”.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:26 pm
Worked with an ex tuhoe activist
He had left the tribal area and realized how biased and one sided the propaganda he had been brought up with was
he was approached to join little boys band and was told the purpose was to take their lands back with force
This was at least 2 years before the arrests
This is common knowledge among tuhoe yet they lie about the reality of iti and the tribes aims
As I said tribe talk shit tuhoe
They had there lands confiscated for the same reason originally harboring terrorists and waging war Something that they were warned about well before the confiscation
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
mike you dont read history
On November 10, 1868, Te Kooti and his followers attacked the township of Matawhero on the outskirts of Gisborne. Some 54 people were slaughtered, including women and children. The dead included 22 local Māori as well as European settlers.
From there, Te Kooti escaped into the Urewera and made an alliance with the Tuhoe leadership.
From 1869 to 1872, Te Kooti and his followers raided throughout the central North Island while being pursued by their colonial and Māori enemies. His power was only broken once his Tuhoe allies were systematically conquered by his enemies.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 2:47 pm
So Griff, your main point about the ‘Poverty Bay massacre’ did not involve Tuhoe at all. My understanding is that To Kooti nd is followers then sought refuge in the Uruwera, where they were pursued in a particularly pitiless and brutal campaign. I don’t think this showed a “long history…of terrorism”.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 3:08 pm
So how come they were sentenced in part for being a private militia, when there was no guilty verdict on being part of an organised criminal gang? Surely the two are much the same thing in the eyes of the law?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 3:13 pm
The private militia bit comers from the Judge’s comment in the sentencing on the firearms charges, where he talks about the purpose of the training camps.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Housing the leader and perpetrators of a massacre is a terrorist act
Vote:in modern terms it would be called aiding and abetting
In your mind it may have been a good idea to let them continue to massacrer settlers and Maori indefinitely
but then you do not believe we should have prosecuted iti ether
whereas I believe iti and friends should be publicly hung for treason
May 24th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Forget about the long history of terrorism…it’s modern day terrorism that concerns me…Give them their “independent state” …south west of the waioeka gorge to some “tribal boundary” in the west that has at least some credibility..be generous…extend the boundaries to include Wairoa so they have a port and airport…and let their be an end to it! Fuck, even give them a “treaty settlement” arising from a treaty they never signed…and then that’s it! No more! Anyone who wants to – along with cringing whities like Urs Signer – can go and live in the Tuhoe Republic under President for life Iti…just be prepared to fund everything they have got used to themselves.
It would work out about as well as the “homelands” in apartheid era South Africa…which is effectively what these clowns want…so long as we keep paying all the bills.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Griff is right. I am from that area of the country and have friends in Taneatua and it is common knowledge what Iti and Co were up to out there – they even asked my friend to join and he told them to get lost. But the locals up to and including Tamati Kruger, that get interviewed on TV just lie and pretend that there was nothing there to see, or more probably they don’t want to break rank and tell the truth. Iti deserves his jail sentence. And if Tuhoe want someone to blame for the raids then it is him and his band of dangerous idiots they should be looking at.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:04 pm
No David, I want to argue with Griff about the Land Wars. From memory, after Te Kooti escaped from the Chathams, he landed in Poverty Bay and sent a message that he wanted to be left alone, which didn’t happen. The Matawhero Raid came some time later, and basically targeted those who had caused Te Kooti’s imprisonment and harassed him after the escape.
Vote:I’m not making Te Kooti out to be a saint, but categorising him as a ‘terrorist’, along with his Tuhoe allies, is just importing 21st century concepts way back into time, and twisting them too. It was a bitter little war, with nastiness on both sides.
inventing labels now like ‘terrorist’, ‘rebel’, ‘freedom fighter’ or resistance’ is not very helpful. unless you really believe in goodies and baddies.
May 24th, 2012 at 4:05 pm
If I want to make a Molotov cocktail and use it on my property without violation of the rights of another just who the fuck are you or the state to stop me or tell me no? In a FREE country people have the RIGHT to posses weapons and to practice with them on their own land etc if they so choose.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:22 pm
Scorned: Sounds great in theory…so what do YOU think the boys and girls were practising up there? Do you believe it was all about improving paintballing skills or whatever the latest bullshit is? They might not have been violating the rights of others right then, but they were sure as hell planning to!
Milky: Fair enough…but you can’t have that argument both ways. According to mid 19th century values – on both sides – Maori were treated extremely fairly if not indulgently compared with any other colonised race anywhere…yes, a very old argument, but none the less true for that. If you dont want to apply those awkward labels to Te Kooti and his mates post facto, then you can’t apply those nasty labels about the behaviour of the coloniser as veiwed through modern eyes either. Neither side acted in accordance with the Bill of Rights or the norms of 21st Century democracies. If either side had, the other would have died laughing.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:24 pm
You stick to NZ revision of history on line mike
Actually I agree DG I nice little apartheid home land within new zealand is exactly wot they need the only cravat i would place on your proposal is that new zealand still control their foreign relations And retains control of the eez from five miles out
separate development
Vote:During the HART minto era someone sourced an sth African pro apartheid leaflet and sent it around the maori organizations rewritten to say Maori not zulu the maori congress and the Anglican church decided it was great policy
May 24th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Scorned – thats fine in principle. But if you blow your hand off or suffer third degree burns, don’t turn up at the public hospital and expect the taxpayer to pick up the bill.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
So… looks like the two Maoris with mokos get prison time and the white guy and white girl get…. home detention? For what seems to be the same offending? Is this our supposed colour-blind justice system at work?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Hey wake up guys, this is New Zealand not Africa
I realise you’re talking about tribalism but we are a multicultural society where everyone should be equal.
Some Maori need to put down the utu and realise that what happened here happened all over the world, where ever another tribe colonised another’s area, hell the Maori did it here too!
Vote:At least the Europeans didn’t kill and eat them all
May 24th, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Yes we are all equal… that’s why when people commit the same offending if you’re Maori you go to prison and if you’re white you get home detention.. It’s all to do with equality.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Actually Weihana, Emily Bailey is Maori
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Keeping,
Yeah and so am I… but that’s kinda like saying Barack Obama is white, which may be true but is nevertheless largely irrelevant.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:45 pm
Weihana,
Vote:Should we assume at the outset that the fact they were Maori is the reason they were imprisoned? Or does it warrant deeper investigation?
May 24th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
You’re the one suggesting that the sentencing had racial overtones Weihana. But have a read of this:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0711/S00021.htm
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:51 pm
adze,
The reason they were imprisoned, or so it is reported, is that they illegally possessed firearms and what makes it so serious is because their purpose was serious and a private militia was being established. That is true for all four surely? But yes, it does warrant deeper investigation which is why I asked.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:52 pm
without knowing the full case as presented in court i would assume that little boy and friend had prior records that may have been taken into account on sentencing
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 4:56 pm
Maybe it was because Iti and his offsider had a greater leadership role and/or longer involvement? A possibility.
Urs Signer actually had fewer charges than the other three – so perhaps you could make a case for discrimination against men, since Bailey is Maori
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 5:05 pm
Apologies to Crane Brothers, it seems the Dominion article was somewhat misleading. They didn’t provide Iti with suits.
“Yesterday I was asked to quote for the Dominion Post on Tama Iti and his wardrobe selection.
Apparently he has been dressed during his trial by some local Wellington retailers, not us I may add, although this was murky due to some average reporting .
I made reference to the fact that I thought he had managed to achieve a look reminiscent of his ancestors appearing in Burton Brother’s studio shots dressed in colonial attire; something the interviewer had no knowledge of which was disappointing given that was the real story (not some product placement of a hat)…”
http://crane-brothers.com/dispatch/2012/3/tama-iti/
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 5:05 pm
tuhoe_nation … count me as one whitey who would happily agree to Tuhoe independence from New Zealand, with your own nation on your historic tribal lands.
Your own nation. With a border, passports etc. Citizens of the Tuhoe nation renounce their New Zealand citizenship, don’t pay New Zealand taxes, and don’t get any New Zealand benefits. No subsidies from New Zealand to the Tuhoe nation.
Sounds like a win:win.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 5:48 pm
If the aim of using firearms was to incite racial tensions then it is fair to say given some responses here, Tama Iti and co were successful. I fact his jail term has compounded that success.
So the easy mark of terrorists is always that their activities encourage brutalisation and therefore reduce right-thinking people to being just like them. Again success for Iti.
Iti let loose a firearm at Waitangi din’t he? He likes guns and likes playing with them. B
ut the state response to ‘the Band of Bros’ has been, rather than to illustrate how deluded and isolated his brand of naive terrorism is, it has lionised him and turned him into a modern folk hero.
With enemies like that, who needs friends? And the stupid keep lining up to join in. . .
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 5:58 pm
I agree with Weihana but all four of the fuckers should be in the slammer and I don’t give a fat rats arse what bloody colour they are. Parihaka is about passive resistance, for Bailey and Ure to claim connections to the passive resistance movement is laughable. Bailey is burdened with a very large chip on her shoulder and Ure is simply an anarchist.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
Mary Wilson swallowing a dead rat???
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2519840/more-from-the-police-commissioner.asx
I recall Mary Wilsons reaction to St Peters “tsunami of migrants ” comments with “should we even be reporting them?”
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
Heh! A redneck judge decides to criminalise dissent, no surprises here. Such an obviously bigoted judgement will not stand up on appeal.
Great to see so many commentators in Kiwiblog perpetuating the belief that Kiwiblog is the most fertile breeding ground for white supremacy in New Zealand today.
There is nothing anyone can say that will make the thugs who carried out the paramilitary style assault on Ruatoki appear to be acting legitimately, such a vicious abuse of authority is going to leave a foul taste in the mouths of a great many decent New Zealanders for decades to come.
The arrogance of this country’s out of control security apparatus has just set race relations back decades, the only Maori who will accept this are the corporate uncle Toms feeding off the treaty process.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:15 pm
It is a pity that Iti did not get the maximum four years, however listening to that racist prick Willie Jackson have a minor melt down on Radio Live today when he heard that Tit had been sent down made it a little more acceptable that the fat slob only got two and a half years.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:17 pm
Peter Marshall ‘s interview shows him as an exceptionally strong, principled leader – the best Commissioner in recent times. He has trumped the media sensationalists, explained this case soberly and dispassionately, and put his officers on the pedestal they deserve. Well done to the police for a throughly professional job.Lets move on.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
“Peter Marshall ‘s interview shows him as an exceptionally strong, principled leader …” The coward made a video because he was too afraid to face a tepid press. Spineless!
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:31 pm
He’s on CloseUp tonight.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Yoza
Vote:sooo you think the police should have gone in quietly to arrest persons known to be in possession of and training with military arms?
If even a red neck jafa like me knew wot was brewing in the burnt cocks why did the rest of tuhoe not know?
Have you ever done it up against a tree?
May 24th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
If only the Crown had not spent most of the 20th C impeding the economic development of Tuhoe Country, David:
Vote:http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2007/10/dont-blame-tuhoe-for-underdevelopment.html
May 24th, 2012 at 6:47 pm
A few things stand out for me:
At last we have a Police Commissioner who doesn’t take any shit. Excellent.
We also have a Judge who says it like it is – there is hope within the judiciary after all.
The dissidents got what they deserved.
Win. Win. Win.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:48 pm
There were a couple of comments above about the length of sentence and differences between the various accused. The judgement makes it clear Iti and Kemara played a leading role in the offending. Iti had one prior conviction, from 1998, that did not make any difference to the result for him and Kemara – a starting point of 3 years reduced by 6 months. The other two were less involved and may receive HD.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
Here’s Judith Binney on how the Crown systematically underfunded basic services in Maungapohatu after 1916, in an effort to drive locals away:
Vote:http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/document/Volume_92_1983/Volume_92%2C_No._3/Maungapohatu_revisited%3A_or%2C_how_the_government_underdeveloped_a_Maori_community%2C_by_J._Binney%2C_p_353-392/p1?page=0&action=searchresult&target=
Compare the levels of funding to those for services in rural Pakeha communities.
May 24th, 2012 at 6:54 pm
No Yoza appears to be the lefty propagandist assigned to Kiwiblog dissembly for tonight. He seems to imagine people here always fell for the media lie that it was all just play and pretend and that the nasty police just overreacted without cause and the poor Maowi got hammered, again, for no reason.
Yoza doesn’t seem to know that Kiwibloggers not only have 3-digit IQs but have also penetrated the first veil, that we recognise politics affects our lives and so instead of thinking about the latest fashion or sports news like the 90% who haven’t penetrated the first veil, we know enough to look straight through the lefty propaganda the media has promulgated over this issue.
Poor Yoza.
I just hope Marshall says on Walrus (which he didn’t on Checkpoint): “Look, it’s not our fucking fault Hulun couldn’t write a proper law. These people were going to fucking kill other people, and the fact we didn’t get a conviction was Liarbore’s fault not the Police’s. What about that don’t you understand,
SainsburyWalrus?”And then I hope it ends with Marshall arresting Sainsbury for being just a complete and total plonker in every way and marching him off the CloseUp set a bit like Holmes’ first interview with Dennis Conner when the cameras followed him as he stormed away. I think I’ll record it just in case that really does happen.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
Muriel Newman has been seeking signatures for a citizens referendum on the foreshore and seabed. I suspect people are reticent and I suspect the reason is that despite the face of “Maori” as radicals/nationalists they are also our neighbours and workmates and we are reticent to go down the “them versus us” road. However when it comes to a particular piece of beach or issue and individuals can be identified we will stand against those individuals.
Vote:E.G
Occupation at Brighton Pier – Takutai Moana Wananga
He Panui!
Starts: 4-30am Friday 3 December, for the weekend
Where: New Brighton Pier, Otautahi / Christchurch
Kaupapa: To raise awareness over the takutai moana (seabed and foreshore) issue
What to bring (all optional): Enthusiasm, a sleeping bag, kai, warm clothes
Bands and other entertainment on Saturday and Sunday
This is the start of something huge! It will be educational and also a ton of fun. So please come and support this kaupapa!
For further information please tel Malcolm (Jock) Mulholland 027 421 9083, Sasha McMeekings 021 722 426, Whetu Moataane 027 253 7334, or email.
Organised by Te Mangoroa
Nau Mai, Haere Mai! [Hang in There, Rhubarb, and Tiddlie-Pom!]
May 24th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
@hj: What the hell has a squat-in at Brighton Pier got to do with these 4 getting convicted?
Were you expecting Tama Iti to attend or something?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
Yoza: do you know Justice Brewer? I do…a person less “redneck” than he is hard to imagine…what a stupid fuck you are…
so tell us wise one…what were the boys and girls doing up there? Do you actually know what a “molotov cocktail” is? Have you ever been hunting, for anything? Come on, the floor is yours…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Peter Marshall just gave a fairy forceful defence of the Police on Close Up.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Tame has done hundred times more for this country than David Garrett ever will
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
For sure: the savage parasite Iti has collected the dole countless times, in fact, all his miserable life.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Randy: do tell! What has the ambassador done for our country..?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:20 pm
@yoz
All the judge did was sentence them. It was a jury that found them variously guilty, not guilty and no verdict
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Elaycee (2,535) Says:
May 24th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
@hj: What the hell has a squat-in at Brighton Pier got to do with these 4 getting convicted?
—————
Vote:I was just changing the topic a bit to refer to the F&S issue and where (I believe) we are on that one, after all the topic is broader than “4 getting convicted”.
May 24th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Cont.
Vote:We’re lucky the Urewera Wankers are just a motley bunch of malcontent’s.
May 24th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
from wot I understand they were messing with new and improved Molotov with added glycerin to improve stickiness
Vote:AKA napalm
Not the sort of thing thats any good for hunting. A pig running around in the bush in flames would be a huge fire risk as well as upsetting the spca
There is a very famous shot from Vietnam that illustrates the effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phan_Thi_Kim_Phuc
peace niks my arse
May 24th, 2012 at 7:27 pm
And complete crap.
The British strongly understood that it was beyond their capacities (military and economic) to enter into armed conflict with Maori in a very distant land. Therefore, they settled for a treaty, which was encouraged by Maori, who valued the trade opportunities Pakeha provided. Maori signed the treaty in good faith and were then shit upon, invaded by stealth.
You do realise the armed conflict (The Land Wars) occurred after the treaty was signed?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:29 pm
Randy: Still waiting sonny…forget what I did or may have done…what did “Tame” do to improve the lives of all of us? Or even his own lot? Arent they STILL at the bottom of the heap on every measure? How long exactly has he been their leader and hero? I came back from Tonga nine years ago, and he was the big (short) cheese then…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:32 pm
Luc: yes, I am very well aware of New Zealand history…So tell me wise one #2…how did the Brits coerce the Maori into a treaty when they were outnumbered more than 10 to one in 1840? ; when there were no British soldiers (aside from the odd marine on board Hobson’s vessel) here in 1840, and all iwi were by then tooled up? How exactly did the evil coloniser force them to do anything?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:40 pm
Um, the Treaty wasn’t forced on anyone…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:41 pm
Come on Luc…you know your history! How many British troops were there in NZ in 1840? Include the Marines on Hobsons ship if you wish…so you had the Resident, Busby…..and?
And the Maori and pakeha populations were at that time, what approximately?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
Milky: thank you…so we have that established…And until the Land Wars 25 years later, things went along fairly well, albeit with dodgy dealings on both sides…do we have agreement on that?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:46 pm
“You do realise the armed conflict (The Land Wars) occurred after the treaty was signed?”
You do realize that the armed conflict the musket wars was before during and after the treaty as signed?
estimates of total casualties from musket wars between 25,000 and 60,000 whole tribes exterminated
Thats is GENOCIDE
or enslaved some slaves, estimates of over 1000 were tattooed then killed for the preserved head trade
total from the Land wars 3000 and in many cases they were a continuation of the musket wars any way
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Fuck, they were not military weapons with an automatic fire capability as much as the cops made out Iti and co had Russian belt feed weapons.
Vote:Molotov cocktails ? I bet the dumb fucks used only petrol in them.
May 24th, 2012 at 7:58 pm
Randy: and still waiting…for at leas the first draft of “Leader in the Mist: the achievements of Tame Iti”….
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:00 pm
Luc
The “British” as you call them didn’t really want a bar of this place.It was the involvement of many different influences that brought full British engagement to New Zealand.
Whalers,sailors,French colonialism,missionaries (a very Victorian virtue,both French Catholic and British Protestant) and traders with guns who were assisting the constant genocidal Maori inter tribal warfare that was destroying the tribes involved.
But Luc knows all that anyway but like all anti white leftists will only view history through his own narrow conceited viewpoint.
A treaty was a sensible and lawful strategy and not unique to New Zealand at that time or subsequently in the Victorian Empire.
And like most other places the British colonised or ruled the result(when embraced by the populace) is a relatively peaceful,stable and prosperous democracy.
The USA, Canada,Oz,Ireland ,Israel and even India and South Africa can boast that heritage.
If you can read this ,thank a teacher, if you can read this in English, thank a soldier.
God Save the Queen.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:02 pm
So we are told they are here and not going away!
Vote:Two things, first yes they are going away,roughly 30 months !
Also if we shoot them, then the are going away perminatley.
Wife is embarassed to be Maori, sad really because atleast she wants to be the community.
May 24th, 2012 at 8:04 pm
“The British strongly understood that it was beyond their capacities (military and economic) to enter into armed conflict with Maori. Therefore, they settled for a treaty, which was encouraged by Maori, who valued the trade opportunities Pakeha provided. Maori signed the treaty in good faith and were then shit upon, invaded by stealth.”
==================
The New Zealand Company had ships on the water at the time the treaty was signed. Colonisation was under way treaty or no treaty.
Maori were deeply divided.
The” British” were influenced by people of varying political persuasions including, the Church Missionary Society, the Society for the Protection of Aborigines and another whose name alludes me. They were on a roll having recently set the slaves free in the British Empire.
The treaty is ambiguous on sovereignty for good reason: there is no way in hell British colonists would have accepted the terms as Maori would have wanted and vice versa.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
The USA, Canada,Oz,Ireland ,Israel and even India and South Africa can boast that heritage.
Yes kowtow, the USA had a little thing called the war of independence; Canada’s native indians got issued with anthrax-laced blankets courtesy of the Brits; Ireland, well; Israel in fact bombed the King David Hotel in 1948 – then elected the leader of the gang that did it, PM; India didn’t seem to like them much and neither did SA.
I do think Great Britain did a lot to spread good things across the globe. Some of their Victorian achievements were staggering.
History however IS written by the victors and I am increasingly realising as I get older, that a lot of extremely nasty shit from that era has been swept under the carpet which should not be, in a just and true objective view of what really, actually, did happen.
Anyway back to Iti. Yay! Wish it was life. What scum. Wish the media got sentenced as well, at times like these, for being absolute liars. The fact they don’t, a sad consequence of our stupid British justice. Crikey.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Shit Luc! It’s not quite so easy when you are arguing against people who are intelligent, well informed, and have read at least as widely as you..eh?
I recommend “The newest country in the world” by Paul Moon…not as good as “This horrid practice”, but very informative… You might also find “Native Strangers” by Susanne Williams Milcairns (about the beachcomber/castaway period in NZ) very interesting…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:15 pm
LJ: that “anthrax laced blankets” thaing…where does that come from exactly? Sounds very like Ken Mair’s claim (hasnt stopped him accepting money from the public tit for years) that flour laced with arsenic was sold to the Wanganui River Maori….Mind you, Ken also claimed at one time that Maori DID in fact have a written language, and their own printing presses….but the honky colonists smashed them…when they were delivering those arsenic laced bags of flour, presumably…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:23 pm
No more Molotov cocktails, prawn cocktails or champagne cocktails for Tame Iti for a while then. He’ll just have to make do with cock while he’s in prison – no tails.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:23 pm
“According to treaty law specialist Tim Castle in the Herald recently, they are “partnership; protection of Maori rangatiratanga (understood in modern times to mean Maori Sovereignty); tribal right of self-regulation; Crown’s duty to redress past breaches; Crown’s duty to consult; mutual benefit; options; active protection; and significance of the Treaty.”
Which brings us to a major question, is the modern interpretation of the Waitangi Treaty correct? To answer that, we now take readers back to July 1860 – exactly 144 years ago – and the biggest gathering of chiefs in New Zealand history. Government soldiers had just begun the war against Maori in the Taranaki, and had invited chiefs from around New Zealand to a major hui in Auckland. In broad terms, the government spelt out to Maori that a dispute over land in Taranaki had escalated into violence associated with a perceived rebellion based on Maori sovereignty. The question for debate: whether Maori wished to stand by the Crown or join the Maori sovereignty movement.
What follows is a direct transcript of speeches from that hui. As you read it, ask yourself whether Maori in 1860 believed in Maori sovereignty, or that the Treaty was a partnership in the modern sense of the word:”
Vote:http://www.thebriefingroom.com/archives/nz_political/treaty_of_waitangi/index.html
May 24th, 2012 at 8:29 pm
The FBI launched the raid against Dotcom to send a message to the world.
Vote:The police raid against illicit firearm users was to send a message to tuhoe in the first instance and other uppity folk in the second.
These are old tactics, burn the crops and houses, slaughter the children as in the Highland ‘clearances’, ours was a more ‘genteel’ version of close down the area and frighten the shit out of everyone. Marshall repeated over and over again tonight that 17 firearms were found, one loaded and under a bed – check out any rural area in NZ Pete. Then the nice touch that it was the activists that ’caused’ the dimensions of the raid on the locals. Oh dear, new script writer needed.
May 24th, 2012 at 8:32 pm
I wish I could recall the exact website for everything I have ever read on the web David. Sadly I just tried but can’t re-find the articles and photos I read years ago on that. I’ll have a good look on the weekend and let you know.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:37 pm
From good ole Wikipedia:
Vote:‘There are two documented instances of attempted germ warfare by the British against North American Indian adversaries during Pontiac’s Rebellion (1763–66). In the first, during a parley at Fort Pitt on June 24, 1763, Captain Simeon Ecuyer gave representatives of the besieging Delawares two blankets and a handkerchief that had been exposed to smallpox, hoping to spread the disease to the Natives in order to end the siege.[13] William Trent, the militia commander, left records that clearly indicated that the purpose of giving the blankets was “to Convey the Smallpox to the Indians”.’
So smallpox, yes, anthrax, maybe a bit doubtful.
May 24th, 2012 at 8:38 pm
Nostalgia – will you find people “in any rural area in NZ” planning to assassinate politicians or blow up buildings? How’s that Young Farmers Molotov Cocktail competition going?
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:39 pm
Nostalgia-NZ
Vote:The clearances were by the tribal leaders the lards
They could make more money from sheep than peasants
How the fuck to you compare that with a police raid on a armed militia fermenting civil unrest and tribal succession from NZ
May 24th, 2012 at 8:41 pm
Here’s an alternative to wiki Mike.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/native_voices/native_voices.cfm
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:51 pm
Mike will love this excerpt from your link hj
“At a recent meeting at Waikato some of their leading men proposed that Wiremu Kingi, who was in arms against the Queen’s authority, should be supported by reinforcements from the tribes who acknowledged the Maori King, and armed parties from Waikato and Kawhia actually went to Taranaki for this purpose. These men also desire to assume an authority over other New Zealand tribes and their relations with the Government, and contemplate the forcible subjection of those tribes who refuse to recognise their authority.”
inter tribal warfare was a talking point when it came to sovereignty
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Scott Hamilton (132) Says:
May 24th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
Here’s Judith Binney on how the Crown systematically underfunded basic services in Maungapohatu after 1916, in an effort to drive locals away:
Vote:=========
Could there be an element of ostracism there, as when any religion breaks off from the mainstream?
Also the government isn’t going to be interested in helping develop a community that may not have looked like a viable proposition (with or without aid)?
May 24th, 2012 at 8:53 pm
adze and Griff
Yes, I heard all the unproven stuff for which there were no convictions. The problem here is that the sentencing has encompassed allegations not proven in Court, the Judge has repeated them and so has the Commissioner but it is however unproven. What is proven however is the scope and purpose of the raid fell short of it’s grand design.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:57 pm
Nostalgia
Just came in from a quick spot lighting trip, used a rifle not a molotov, they tend to over cook the good bits.
But in saying this those clowns have been doing that shit up there for years, nobody really worried about it.
Look at who was involved, a tubby midget ( he’s actually quite personable when he’s not being a professional hori) and some sad sack liberal goose from Europe weighed down by the stone around his neck wandering around feeling guilty about being born white. They couldn’t find their arse with both hands.
If you have ever been to Ruatoki or Taneatua you will know planning an armed insurrection is just something to do other than growing dope, stealing deisel out of logging contractors machines, sitting about fuming why the great grand parents sold their dairy farms because they could have a couple of years not working before the money ran out or watching TV every single day of your miserable no account life.
And Tuhoi owe a huge debt to the New Zealand Police in that they were saved from the main ravages of the 1918 ‘flu epidemic by the local cop who rode through the whole district and told everyone to stay home as parts of the world were getting cleaned out by the pandemic ( Ngata – by Ranganui Walker)
.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 8:58 pm
With regard to native Americans, there are two sides to every story:
Vote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_House_Fight
May 24th, 2012 at 9:08 pm
Hmm, so recorded video and audio doesn’t qualify as proof (because there were only convictions for firearms offences) – however a bad faith assumption of ulterior motives (“grand design”) aired on a blog is rock solid.
This thread has just about done its dash I think; time to return to my studies.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Pauleastbay
I think I’ll pass on molotov fried chicken from the local take out.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 9:18 pm
Nostalgia-NZ
read
May 24th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
I do not need to see proof for something I knew of prior to the arrests
Found a nice adze head in the local creek yesterday not green stone but I still would not like it bounced of my scone
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 9:51 pm
PEB: yep…they can be vey personable for a while…until someone with resources back them…the German establishment in 1933 thought they could “fence them in”…that worked real well…
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 9:56 pm
100!
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
Luc: Where have you gone (Joe Di Maggio?) You make an argument but when it is rebuffed you just fold up your tent…Que Pasa??
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 10:13 pm
David, I’m still trying to parse all the distortions you put upon my relatively uncontroversial statement, and all the red herrings from your mates.
I never said Maori were forced to sign the treaty – I said the opposite, they were willing signatories.
I never said the Musket Wars didn’t occur, and what does that or tribal warfare what does it have to do with later colonisation. (Griff, I think)
I never said war would have eventuated without a treaty being signed. Maori were not trying to stop Pakeha immigration – quite the reverse. There was no military presence accompanying Hobson – a dozen NSW policemen seconded on the was through.
I think at the time the settler population was only about 5000 compared to 400,000? Maori. So what?
I simply pointed out to you that your statement that the British went easy on Maori as some kind of humanitarian gesture is simply white man’s crap. I stand by that.
PS I have a life. I have lots of real reading to get through, not Kiwijunk. You will have to learn patience.
Vote:May 24th, 2012 at 10:20 pm
DG
Nothing to fear but fear its self and paranoia.
If you think 10 shit bags are a problem you are off to an early grave.
If the great maori anti christ were to arise do you honestly fucking think it would come out of the the dank steep poxy Ureweras. duh?
Where are people trained with great success in warfare, have access to the latest weaponry and resources and their numbers are large ?
Paranoia makes you stupid ( meant in the nice way you talk to the infirm uncle at Xmas)
Vote:May 25th, 2012 at 1:59 am
4 people, after hearing all the factual evidence including that presented by the accused legal defense in a court of law that the public may openly witness and nothing is kept secret, have been found guilty of firearms offences and sentenced. That’s it. End of story.
If I had a bunch of military-style firearms and Molotov cocktails with no firearms license, no evidence of ownership or purchase of said firearms and no sane reason as to why I was running around practicing shooting people- I too would be found guilty and sentenced. This isn’t any more political than someone being issued with a speeding ticket or parking fine. This isn’t about race, the Treaty, colonization, the war on terror, suppressing dissent etc- It’s a simple matter of the firearms Act being enforced.
Vote:If these racist white supremacist nutters down here in Christchurch are ever found with similar illegal weapons I would expect and demand the police move in on them in full force just as hard as they did on the 4 found guilty today.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
On what grounds is the little Swiss boy in New Zealand ?
Vote:Can he be exported to Switzerland after serving his sentence ?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Fuck luc if you are going to enter a discussion atleast have an idea of the figures
Vote:Maori population at the discovery of NZ estimated between 100000 and 120000
at 1840 between 40,000 and 80 000
Number of non maori 1840 estimated 2,000
May 26th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
A reading of the Judge’s sentencing remarks reveals that the jury took a reasonably sophisticated approach in reaching its verdicts.
The fact the jury failed to agree on the lead charge was the most likely result all along – its the sort of charge reasonable people would disagree on.
I think we can be satisfied the jury preformed its task well.
It’s difficult to see how molotov cocktails could be consistent with a peaceful motive – the four accused were welcome to take the stand to provide an innocent explanation – but none did.
In the absence of such an explanation, findings of guilt on certain counts were inevitable.
The sentencing Judge was was entitled to take into account aggravating factors when determining sentence, including facts critical to the jury’s determination of the charges.
No remorse was expressed, only defiance – the accused seemed to think they should be exempt from the “laws of the land” in this case, the Arms Act.
No guilty pleas.
So nothing really to mitigate or reduce the final sentences.
Vote:May 26th, 2012 at 8:56 pm
A reading of the Judge’s sentencing remarks reveals that the jury took a reasonably sophisticated approach in reaching its verdicts.
The fact the jury failed to agree on the lead charge was the most likely result all along – it’s the sort of charge reasonable people would disagree on.
I think we can be satisfied the jury performed its task well.
It’s difficult to see how molotov cocktails could be consistent with a peaceful motive – the four accused were welcome to take the stand to provide an innocent explanation – but none did.
In the absence of such an explanation, findings of guilt on certain counts were inevitable.
The sentencing Judge was was entitled to take into account aggravating factors when determining sentence, including facts critical to the jury’s determination of the charges.
No remorse was expressed, only defiance – the accused seemed to think they should be exempt from the “laws of the land” in this case, the Arms Act.
No guilty pleas.
So nothing really to mitigate or reduce the final sentences.
Vote: