Job unfilled

May 27th, 2012 at 8:49 am by David Farrar

The HoS reports:

The country’s rate is the highest it has been since 1999, but some employers are struggling to find people willing to take on manual work.

Several employers desperately seeking reliable workers say it is as if people are unprepared for the workforce and don’t want to prove themselves.

The unemployment rate for the March quarter was 7.1 per cent, the highest it has been since June 1999, and the youth rate was 23.4 per cent.

Hayden Bootton, of HSB Builders in Northland, said finding unskilled workers was difficult, despite offering apprenticeships.

He was offering $16 an hour for temporary workers and the minimum wage for permanent work, pay rises every six months and the prospect of a full builder’s wage of about $20 an hour at the end of training. …

Northland’s unemployment rate is almost 9 per cent, one of the country’s highest.

Brenda, who does not want her surname used, said it was not only a Northland problem. Her Waikato business hires labourers. She said people had worked a couple of days before quitting, and others had walked out when faced with a drug test.

I recall after I left university deciding not to apply for a job because it paid only $11 an hour, and was for four months only while someone took a long overseas trip. Later that day I reconsidered and recovered the advert from the bin and applied for it. My rationale was better to be in work on not great wages for even four months, than not working at all.

Four years later I left the employer earning close to double what I started on. I was so glad I took that initial relatively low paid job with no job security.

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56 Responses to “Job unfilled”

  1. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    The gap between welfare and wages isn’t high enough. The tax system does not reward work.

    If the difference in your after tax income from being on a benefit and slogging your guts out doing physical work is only $50 or $60 a week, really why would you ?

    People will behave exactly as the system rewards them to do so. No one should be surprised.

    ps,

    $20 an hour for a trained builder ? That’s shit.

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  2. hmmokrightitis (1,596 comments) says:

    I got made redundant from a role in late 1989, about 3 months before I was due to head to the UK for my 18 month OE. Notwithstanding that I stayed overseas for 10 years, I needed money to take with me. Qualified accountant, skills in IT, I couldn’t find anything short term to tide me over, and couldn’t move tickets to fly early.

    Friend of mine was warehouse manager at a general storage place in Wiri. Offered me a role shifting and lifting shit around, cant remember how much but it was fuck all, but I thought screw it, keeps me busy and make a little dosh.

    Loved it, got fit, worked with some great blokes, within 4 weeks I was a supervisor on more money.

    My dad used to run a factory and I worked there during the school and uni holidays. Shit money, doing the shittiest jobs imaginable. But damn it taught me some great life skills. Like hard work takes you places, if you apply yourself and not just switch your brain off, employers will reward you.

    And having run my own company’s, you look for those people who want to add more, not just find a way to shirk. And those shirkers always seem to think that the hard workers are ‘lucky’.

    About to sell my latest company to an o/seas organisation, and then think about a couple of other opportunities, once my latest gig is done. Will retire in 10 years I think, Mrs and I will still have lids at home for another 5 or so, we can then sell the house and live in the holiday home we are about to buy. And travel again, cant wait.

    My dad taught me these things, as I teach them to my kids. Get off your arse, work hard, apply yourself, get ahead. This isnt rocket science.

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  3. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    We do need to accept that some people can never “get ahead”. Intelligence is on a bell curve. For every go getter with a IQ of 130, there are people with IQs in the 80s and 90s that simply don’t the intellectual hardware required for more than basic manual labour. It’s not a popular statement as it offends people, but it’s true.

    One the the biggest mistakes well off people make is thinking that others are like them and think like them, often it’s not true.

    The benefit and tax system needs to be designed in a way that working pays $10 an hour more than not working. That’s after all the benefits / WFF / tax credit stuff washes out. You need to take home a lot more money at the end of the week.

    When the difference is less, people will tell themselves that that they are effectively working for $1 or $2 an hour and decide not to do it.

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  4. edd (157 comments) says:

    Quit your fucken moaning northland!

    There are some bad employers out there who think they are great human beings. Thats why people walk out on them, not cause the moneys no good, but because they are shit to work for… It’s a two way street in the free world… Be a good boss and youll get good workers!

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  5. andretti (131 comments) says:

    Its been a problem for us over the last couple of years and seems to be getting worse.
    Lately I have employed 2 migrant workers who work harder and dont like saying no,also have a great atttitude and seem to like having a job,whereas some kiwis come with a bad attitude and constantly ask for time of,we had one who asked for two weeks of after being with us for only 4 weeks.Last week I overheard one saying that she couldnt work very fast today as she had a weekend on the turps and had a bad hangover,this is not uncommon.
    At the smoko table I often hear them talk about WINZ and how much they each get or are entitled to.Our kiwi staff often will not work past 20 hours per week as it effects their benefits,other weeks when they only work say 10-15 hours a week they go back to WINZ and ask for assistance,and get it.The whole system is one bad joke.

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  6. Henry64 (83 comments) says:

    Everyone has to start somewhere. At least the guy offering a building apprenticeship is making regular pay increases. Around $20 pw at the end of training seems reasonable. As you continue to build up experience, then naturally the pay should increase over and above that.

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  7. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    I to was without a job in 1988
    Took a crap job on low wage in a factory working shift
    within four years I had amassed a reasonable number of qualifications applicable to other endeavor
    and was earning about 55000 a year more than my brother employed in IT with a degree and years of experience was at that time
    so the get of your arse does work

    I woulds suggest that this perspective employer is limiting the labour market he is fishing in to much
    Drug testing has the unfortunate effect of limiting you to those that do not smoke cannabis. Even if they only have the odd smoke weekly or even monthly. As around 70% of the available workers have the odd smoke he has reduced his market for labour servilely. Any one ho has laboured on a building site will tell you its is a dirty hard and dangerous occupation. To expect good employees to do that for six months with no hope of a payrise in that time would put most off.As a landscaper I would expect to reevaluate within the three month trail period and to pay from then on their true value. I work and employ in the far north and a good labourer working with me would earn around 18 dollars an hour for just shoveling shit from one place to another
    As to 20 dollars an hour for a qualified builder. you need to amass around 10,000 dollars worth of equipment and a van to carry it around in you can not claim this back on wages. The going rate for labour only is around forty to fifty dollars an hour so this business is trying to pay under market rates with onerous employment (drug testing) conditions
    They actually deserve the problems in finding workers that they have created for them selfs The market decides and they will not recognize this probably because they are to greedy

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  8. GPids (19 comments) says:

    It’s like that it the dairy industry in the South Island where I am. Many employers have to hire overseas staff because they can’t find suitable staff and because of attitude problems with New Zealanders.

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  9. SalParadise (54 comments) says:

    This could do with some more looking at:

    Josh Parkes said part of the problem may be the way jobs were advertised. He started at Silver Fern Cleaning two weeks ago after director Simon Potter went to the media over his difficulty finding staff.

    Parkes said Potter had been inundated with CVs from people applying for the $20-an-hour jobs.

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  10. andretti (131 comments) says:

    Had a Chef resign last week.he had only been here for two months,it became apparent that he had issues when he had a hissy fit one night.I told him that I had a meeting organised with him to discuss what had happened,he quit before the meeting.I found out that another staff member told him that under such circumstances he would be subject to a drug test,so he ran.

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  11. orewa1 (410 comments) says:

    So here’s a true story.

    Friend of mine is female, 50s, not in great health. She and husband mow lawns for a living. She pushes a mower all day for a fraction more than the basic wage.

    A third of their income is from WINZ. It seems a lot of tenants on low incomes cant afford a lawnmower, so when the landlord gets grumpy they go to WINZ who say “poor darling, get them done by a contractor and send us the bill.”

    Result – very often while she mows lawns she is watched by groups of unemployed teenage kids, obviously on benefits, who sit in the garage drinking, and/or just passing time.

    Go figure.

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  12. Psycho Milt (2,431 comments) says:

    I’m no fancy big city economist, but if you can’t find people willing to work for the pay you’re offering, the solution isn’t hard to think of.

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  13. WineOh (636 comments) says:

    Alan J I entirely agree with you. Minimum wage for hard manual labour doesn’t cut it when the benes are high in comparison. $20 p/h equates to about $40k per year, so not great but a lot better than a kick in the head & sitting on the couch.

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  14. elscorcho (155 comments) says:

    From my socialist perspective, the solution is obvious:
    Work for the dole.

    This will have multiple benefits
    – develops work ethic
    – ensures delivery of important public services
    – and, best of all, could potentially disrupt some markets enough to drive a few capitalists out of business :)

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  15. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Strange that there’s so many unemployed when the PM has kept telling us that there would be tens of thousands of new jobs under his watch. Then again, he’s said a number of things which turned out to be bullshit.

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  16. gazzmaniac (2,306 comments) says:

    ross69 – the jobs are there. The people who are unemployed just aren’t doing them.

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  17. Viking2 (11,686 comments) says:

    Jobs are not there for the under 18’s because noone wants to pay the minimum wage and then have to spend time rescuing the kids and training etc. Until we get rid of wage controls around young people we will continue to have this problem.

    Here is Bennetts quote, directly from the MSD website. (hattip Lindsay Mitchell. http://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.co.nz/)

    Young people are a clear priority within welfare reform. We know that those who go on welfare young tend to stay longer than others and have poorer opportunities as a result. Of real concern are the 16 and 17 year olds who become disengaged from education, employment and training and who are on a collision course with the adult welfare system.

    Of course they are disengaged. No one wants them and this has been going on for years, driven by the fruitcakes in the Greens, teachers, National, Labour, Maori and all.

    for fucks sake we spent nearly 100 years building a system that worked untill these stupid educated idots claimed the political landscape and decided to screw it all up. If Bennet wants to make a difference the she should have the guts to do what’s right and bring back youth rates.

    But they won’t and next year and the year after and the year after we will be here talking about the same issues. Just like the money thing.
    If you never change what you are doing why would you expect a different result.

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  18. labours a joke (442 comments) says:

    A prime example of how the welfare system in NZ has fallen over…Mr Philip Ure.

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  19. Mark (425 comments) says:

    At university I worked part-time as a storperson starting on $7.50 hour which doesn’t sound like a lot but as a student living away from home and didn’t qualify for a Student Allowance it was good money to me.

    It gave me good work experience, money in my pocket, less student loan debt and I got to work with some great people. It was a great start and made me more employable when I got my degree and looked for other jobs.

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  20. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    What is wrong with drug and alcohol testing for work purposes?

    I’m working with mega-project and we’re having a lot of equipment manufactured in Thailand. We have 3300 people on site in Thailand, everyone is drug and alcohol tested at employment and then we have random drug and alcohol tests on a weekly basis. Everyone will have been tested at least twice and some a lot more.

    We’ve had one drug test failure and one alcohol test failure out of, I would conservatively estimate, 12,000 (drug or alcohol) tests. We’ve just passed 3,000,0000 man hours Lost Time Incident free.

    No one can complain about that, we’re keeping our staff and their colleagues safe.

    Now, I know the Kupe project, which was done in Taranaki, on one single day had 80 people fail drug tests!

    Who would you rather be working with?

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  21. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    “What is wrong with drug and alcohol testing for work purposes?”

    Because with the exception of a few roles directly linked to safety, such as pilots, it’s nothing to do with employers what people do to their bodies in their own time.

    You’re paying them for a product, their labour, you don’t have any rights to anything else from them, certainly not for a minimum wage job.

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  22. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    I would take your figures with a large pinch of salt Mr nui Thai land is a state where a little money will change a lots of things including drug tests and man hours lost’
    3000000 man hours with no injuries on a large construction site is starting to defy the laws of causality
    shit happens
    no shit happens something else is smelling just as bad

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  23. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    You’re an A grade plonker Alan Johnstone if you think the only roles “directly linked” to safety are pilots and their ilk.

    Would you be happy to be working at a height on a scaffold put up by a rigger stoned off his melon?

    Griff, we know that we have been very lucky with no LTIs on this project and maybe we are starting to defy the laws of causality.

    But as this is run by round eyes, we’re the ones responsible for the safety and the resultant statistics. I would like you to come to Thailand and repeat your claim in front of our construction management crew that we’re on the take, to reduce both drug test failures and LTIs. As you have implied in your comment.

    In fact, I’ll pay for your ticket, as the entertainment value of the resultant beating you will receive will be far better than watching the local whores from Walking Street playing out their own version of Muay Thai.

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  24. MCos (14 comments) says:

    I live in Thailand. My sister-in-law runs a little shop selling clothes and she too struggles to find people to stick at the job. Then again she pays less than $NZ10/day for a 12 hour day, which is the going rate. No social welfare here so you would think people would be desperate for the work. No problems – bludge off the family who are a much softer touch than WINZ back home. So before you clamour to abolish WINZ check that everyone in the family is working.
    As for the building site with no hours lost to accidents. Guy breaks his arm. He’ll be back next day because he has to put rice on the table back in Burma where a lot of them come from. They’ll put him in the store counting screws.

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  25. cha (4,145 comments) says:

    We’ve just passed 3,000,0000 man hours Lost Time Incident free

    Liar.

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  26. Fox (206 comments) says:

    Right Alan, so construction work, which involves regularly operating dangerous equipment (circular saws, nail guns, etc) and shifting heavy materials, all in close proximity to other workers, isn’t linked to safety in any way??

    Thank you for perfectly demonstrating how cannabis can adversely affect one’s cognitive/reasoning skills……

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  27. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    30.000.000/8/300/40
    is about 300 life times of work
    you find me 300 construction workers that have not had a single hour of work in their life times between them be it from cuts slips falls strains etc
    in fact it would be hard to find any industry where 300 workers can be found that have not had a single hour down due to injury amongst them
    The fact that you mention beatings reinforces my claim that your numbers are as dodgy as a boat full of somilias and guns
    Round eyes sitting in the office are not doing the job and do not have a handle on the reality of the work face
    And I did not imply that your management team was on the take I am sure in the loverly air conditioned office there are few injures
    is there any incentives or censor to encourage a injury free work place at any level?”

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  28. Alan Johnstone (1,087 comments) says:

    Two posts that decide to lob insults at me because I disagree with them Nice quality of debate.

    Did I say that people working on building sites weren’t directly linked to safety ? I quote pilots as an example, didn’t say it was the only one. Really people, it’s not that complex eh?

    If guy on a minimum wage retail job decides he or she want to smoke drugs at the weekend, I don’t see it as their employers business.

    For the record, I don’t do drugs of any type, legal or otherwise, caffeine excepted.

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  29. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    The problem with drug testing is that it shows up cannabis well after any quantifiable affect has worn off
    Unlike meth or alcohol that are rapidly eliminated from the body smoking pot will still show up weeks later
    You could get totally whacked on a Friday nite on meth and piss and pass Monday morning
    whereas a joint at the start of the Christmas holiday will still show up in tests a month later
    And I know from experience which of these scenarios I would trust my life too and its not piss and meth
    Acc masks personal responsibility if you have a bad record on safety you face no cost Those that are responsible end up subsidizing stupidity
    Which goes right around to the bell curve again :smile:

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  30. B A W (100 comments) says:

    9 times out of 10 a job is better than no job. (there are always exceptions).

    When I was in Ireland i had been on the dole for 6 months and was Bored. I started applying for unpaid intern ships (under their rules you could still keep the dole). Got one at the EPA in Dublin.

    I loved it there. Even though I losing money working there it gave me something to do. I was able to meet other people at work and learn new skills. It sure beat going to the Library every day. It also added to the CV.

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  31. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    Employers who drug test are not limiting the staff they can hire…there’s no shortage of labour.
    Staff who chose to take drugs are limiting their employablity.

    Why are we importing seasonal labour when there’s so much unemployment? It’s nuts.

    I reckon that wages are too low,benefits are too high and a high proportion of New zealanders have a poor work ethic.Of course importing cheap 3rd world labour will only keep wages depressed.

    We need to get mining ,drilling,burning and building an economy that pays good wages and forcing the bums off the dole.

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  32. Pete George (23,836 comments) says:

    I’ve just heard of a case in Christchurch where an employer (building industry) lost his whole workforce when a site he needed to work on had a drug test requirement. All tested positive.

    And I know a work broker, can’t divulge much but it’s depressing seeing the quality (lack) of those they have to try and get into work.

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  33. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Employers who drug test are not limiting the staff they can hire…there’s no shortage of labour.
    Staff who chose to take drugs are limiting their employablity.

    Math mr kow tow dictates that if you exclude all that take drugs in particular cannabis you are limiting you possible employee pool
    As approximately 50% of the youths of today smoke pot And the underclass in northland ” those available for low wage employment” this is with out doubt higher
    ‘you have reduced you employee pool by 50% or more
    No amount of twisted logic will change this fact or change drug use statistics
    If you extended drug testing to all employment we would have a server shortage of not only unskilled workers but also teachers lawyers tradesmen and probably police officers as well :twisted: but true

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  34. Psycho Milt (2,431 comments) says:

    Why are we importing seasonal labour when there’s so much unemployment? It’s nuts.

    It’s straightforward enough. No-one locally is willing to supply labour at the price these guys want to pay. So, instead of offering more to ensure supply meets demand, they’re looking offshore for people from poor countries where what they’re offering looks like good money. They get the profit that low labour costs can deliver, and the country gets to continue paying a shitload of unemployment benefits AND to import a whole lot of Third Worlders. Hooray! Globalisation wins!

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  35. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    I dunno where you learnt maths Griff, or what point you were trying to make, but, for starters you had 30,000,000 not 3,000,000….

    For our entire workforce it is approx 40% of a year, and whilst we have had significantly higher numbers on site, therefore making that percentage lower, current numbers are around 3300. Maybe we’re lucky, but we have instilled a great safety culture that we and the locals are very proud of. Compare this with the at site works that are only just kicking off in Australia and they’ve already had 3 serious accidents – a truck rollover, a scraper tip over and an idiot falling off a ladder, all of these were caused by sheer stupidity, with the wombat who came off the ladder being a serious contender for a Darwin award, such was the nature of what he was doing when he came a gutser.

    And don’t you just love the rebuttal from cha, one of our resident lefty members of the intelligentsia.

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  36. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    The problem is the benifit reward system is set to high
    Would you swap 300 or so dollars a week total leisure time and no responsibility and the ability to find cash jobs or illicit deals to top up income
    With 450 or so dollars a week 40 hours of hard labour to fucked to socialise when your not working and some wanker riding you all day
    Pretty hard choice
    ….EH….

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  37. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    But Griff, why not try and change the culture that drug taking is not acceptable and people will not get good employment if they continue to take drugs? Rather than accepting the status quo of having people possibly affected by drugs at work, because we’re accepting that drugs are the norm.

    It is all these liberal attitudes to drugs that are fucking up the employment prospects for our drug taking youth.

    Let’s discourage drug taking, rather than hugging the drug fucked losers.

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  38. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Being a smart arse I chose to take the most beneficial spin for my argument from your typo
    “We’ve just passed 3,000,0000 man hours Lost Time Incident free.”
    such is the fortunes of statistical error in debate :grin:

    I have not seen any evidence that cha is in fact of a socialist leaning more a quite liberal moderate right type

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  39. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    Apologies, I didn’t even realise I’d added an extra zero on the end, but just for clarity, it is 3 million.

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  40. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Strangely enough I do hug a drug fucked looser on a regular basis
    mostly when its cold in bed and i sleep with my arms around myself :lol:
    I have smoked a joint with a top college principle and one of the most successful defence lawyers in NZ. The tradesman that built your house and services your car properly has smoked cannabis in fact many of the politicians that serve our country have as well
    It is demonstrably true that alcohol does considerably more harm to society than cannabis Ie 40% of all a&e admissions more than50% of crime etc etc etc
    You use the drug fucked meme without the true cost of the drug fucked piss heads included
    I am sure of you go and examine your list associates in your life time you will be able to identify far more that have been fucked by piss than pot
    include the facts I have laid out on drug testing and you can see the distortion that workplace drug testing creates in the labour market as a whole
    Persecuting pot smokers is pointless and in fact insure that the damage due to ALCOHOL continues to be ignored or understated

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  41. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @Griff

    I agree that alcohol is the drug that causes the most harm in society.

    However, only a pot smoker can defend the use of marijuana…..

    Marijuana smoke and cigarette smoke contain many of the same toxins, including one which has been identified as a key factor in the promotion of lung cancer. The effects also include chronic bronchitis, impairment in the function of the smaller air passages, inflammation of the lung, the development of potentially pre-cancerous abnormalities in the bronchial lining and lungs, and, as discussed, a reduction in the capabilities of many defensive mechanisms within the lungs.

    It has been suggested that marijuana is at the root of many mental disorders, including acute toxic psychosis, panic attacks, flashbacks, delusions, depersonalization, hallucinations, paranoia, depression, and uncontrollable aggressiveness.
    Marijuana has long been known to trigger attacks of mental illness, such as bipolar (manic-depressive) psychosis and schizophrenia.

    In the short term, marijuana use impairs perception, judgment, thinking, memory, and learning; memory defects may persist six weeks after last use.

    Mental disorders connected with marijuana use merit their own category in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) IV, published by the American Psychiatric Association. These include Cannabis Intoxication (consisting of impaired motor coordination, anxiety, impaired judgment, sensation of slowed time, social withdrawal, and often includes perceptual disturbances; Cannabis Intoxication Delirium (memory deficit, disorientation); Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Delusions; Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Hallucinations; and Cannabis Induced Anxiety Disorder.

    In addition, marijuana use has many indirect effects on health. Its effect on coordination, perception, and judgment means that it causes a number of accidents, vehicular and otherwise.

    But not to worry Griff………

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  42. mikenmild (12,456 comments) says:

    I should have thought that anyone having trouble recruiting seeking workers would have to ‘meet the market’ and offer more. Or drop their drug testing – unless it is genuinely necessary for safety reasons, in which case they should be breath-testing for alcohol as well.

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  43. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    Griff, nowhere did I say that alcohol was any better, in fact, anyone whom works for me if under the influence of alcohol would be given their marching orders. If it were a hangover, they would be sent home and warned that it wasn’t to happen again, if it did, then they would be told to sling their hook.

    The thing with dope, is that it is the start of a slippery slope into harder drugs and hardcore users usually gain at least one of the mental disorders that Andy alludes to above.

    Yes, plonk does have its problems, but generally we humans are better conditioned to working with the side-effects of plonk. I’ve worked with people who are heavy drinkers and heavy drug users and I will always take the drinker over the druggie.

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  44. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    milkymikey, in my experience, anywhere that undertakes drug testing usually implements random alcohol testing as well. Any organisation that wants to be tough on one should be tough on both. No excuses.

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  45. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Other_Andy
    You study and may and maybe
    against this Incomplete list
    note the definitive not may or could or maybe

    The adverse effects of long-term excessive use of alcohol are close to those seen with other sedative-hypnotics The negative effects include increased risk of liver diseases, oropharyngeal cancer, esophageal cancer and pancreatitis. Chronic alcohol misuse and abuse has serious effects on physical and mental health. Chronic excess alcohol intake, or alcohol dependence, can lead to a wide range of neuropsychiatric or neurological impairment, cardiovascular disease, liver disease, and malignant neoplasms. The psychiatric disorders which are associated with alcoholism include major depression, dysthymia, mania, hypomania, panic disorder, phobias, generalized anxiety disorder, personality disorders, schizophrenia, suicide, neurologic deficits (e.g. impairments of working memory, emotions, executive functions, visuospatial abilities and gait and balance) and brain damage. Alcohol dependence is associated with hypertension, coronary heart disease, and ischemic stroke, cancer of the respiratory system, and also cancers of the digestive system, liver, breast and ovaries. Heavy drinking is associated with liver disease, such as cirrhosis

    Alcohol abuse has been shown to cause an 800% increased risk of psychotic disorders in men and a 300% increased risk of psychotic disorders in women which are not related to pre-existing psychiatric disorders. This is significantly higher than the increased risk of psychotic disorders seen from cannabis use making alcohol abuse a very significant cause of psychotic disorders

    Approximately half of patients attending mental health services for conditions including anxiety disorders such as panic disorder or social phobia suffer from alcohol dependence

    The International Agency for Research on Cancer (Centre International de Recherche sur le Cancer) of the World Health Organization has classified alcohol as a Group 1 carcinogen. Its evaluation states, “There is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of alcoholic beverages in humans…. Alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic to humans

    , the NHS estimate that in 2003 one in every 20 deaths could be attributed to alcohol.[23]
    This is without including violence accidents and car crashes

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  46. mikenmild (12,456 comments) says:

    You’re still not putting my off my $8.99 plonk, Griff.

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  47. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    no mike and I am drinking a clear skin sav tonight so it does not worry me either

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  48. dime (10,222 comments) says:

    “I’m no fancy big city economist, but if you can’t find people willing to work for the pay you’re offering, the solution isn’t hard to think of.”

    And of course if 100 people turn up for a minimum wage job the employer could then offer less money. right?

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  49. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @Griff

    As I said, I agree that alcohol is the drug that causes the most harm in society in New Zealand.

    But smoking marijuana is a major scourge in parts of New Zealand with even primary school aged children dealing and smoking it. Kids come to school doped up and unable to learn and their parents are unable to function in society because of their addiction.
    Smoking marijuana is not the harmless hip and alternative drug some people make it out to be.
    Marijuana causes a lot of problems.

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  50. mikenmild (12,456 comments) says:

    Yes, dime – do you see hundreds queuing for minimum-wage jobs?

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  51. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @mikenmild

    “Yes, dime – do you see hundreds queuing for minimum-wage jobs?”

    Uhmmm….

    More than 1300 people, most of them from Dunedin, have applied for 100 full-time and part-time jobs at the city’s newest supermarket, Countdown Dunedin South in Andersons Bay Rd.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/207194/1300-applicants-supermarket-jobs

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  52. Keeping Stock (9,388 comments) says:

    Ross69 said

    Then again, he’s said a number of things which turned out to be bullshit.

    You’ve described yourself most eloquently and accurately Ross :-)

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  53. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    My point is that alcohol causes more harm to the user and society moderation is the trick with all recreational drugs. the man takes the drug don’t let the drug take the man including alcohol
    to have one legal and a less risky and safer one not is stupid
    Also that the effect of drug testing is to discriminate against those that responsibly partake in a measurably safer option due to the relative difference in the life that they have in the blood stream
    I have on occasion drunk to access and even though I would not have detectable amounts of alcohol in my system know that I am still impaired
    School age children find it easer to source cannabis due to its unlawful status and unregulated market. In Holland with its quasi legal status usage is lower than in states were it is illegal.The only way to make an impact on its use is by reasonable legislation regulation and education. Prohibition does not work
    Cannabis is not addictive in a physical sense it is more the psychological dependence A heavy user can stop cold turkey with no physical symptoms
    Its the life style and very often underlying mental problems that cause difficulty in stopping. Think the caricature stoner at school their anti social behaviour is caused not by the cannabis usage but by underlying causes that they self medicate. I know I was one. :sad: and at a guess so is phillu

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  54. Psycho Milt (2,431 comments) says:

    And of course if 100 people turn up for a minimum wage job the employer could then offer less money. right?

    I’m no more of a fancy big-city economist now than I was this morning, but there’s something about that term “minimum wage” that suggests a significant problem with your theory.

    Re the drug-testing correspondence: if you’re having trouble hiring because you require people who don’t mind you making it your business what they do at the weekend, you have only yourself to blame and maybe you should start to entertain the concept that the commodity you’re after just isn’t to be had at the shitty price you’re willing to pay.

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  55. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @PM

    “……..if you’re having trouble hiring because you require people who don’t mind you making it your business what they do at the weekend…..”

    It’s the DOL and your insurance who require you to test.
    One drugged up dope chopping off his fingers or falling off the ladder can be the end of your business.

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  56. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt said:

    ……maybe you should start to entertain the concept that the commodity you’re after just isn’t to be had at the shitty price you’re willing to pay

    Then they can continue their shitty existence on the dole.

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