Morgan on Greens and environment

June 17th, 2012 at 12:00 pm by David Farrar

TVNZ report:

Entrepreneur and philanthropist has taken a swipe at the Green Party and some conservationists.

He says that the majority of New Zealanders see them as “lefties”, “extremists” or “nutters,” which in the long run is holding back their cause of protecting the environment.

At Forest and Bird’s conference, Face up to the Future, Morgan also took aim at some conservationist groups he calls the “green extreme” or “loony left”.

In particular, he says that their opposition to mining and fracking is not evidence-based, and fails to consider employment and the economy.

Exactly. Too often they are anti-science and ignore the evidence. We need more evidence-based decision making, and less emotion-based decision making.

Hat Tip: Keeping Stock

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46 Responses to “Morgan on Greens and environment”

  1. OneTrack (1,974 comments) says:

    They only want “evidence-based” when they think the evidence supports what they already want to do. Usually something involving putting taxes up.

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  2. RRM (8,994 comments) says:

    YES! Morgan is absolutely spot on. A bit less extremism would do their popularity a world of good.

    This green voter wishes they would take note of what he said, instead of basically putting their hands over their ears and going LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU AND YOU’RE WRONG… :-(

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  3. thedavincimode (6,129 comments) says:

    We had a very good example here when a relatively senior melon – the odd fellow with the bees nest on his head and the hemp suit – simply was not interested in acknowledging or even understanding the science around agricultural emissions. If it doesn’t fit with party central, they close the counter and move on to someone who is more malleable.

    It’s hard to see that this will ever change because the present formula works for them. Whilst the macrame-knitting rank and file might have the environment at heart, that certainly isn’t what’s driving those in charge.

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  4. expat (4,048 comments) says:

    I happened to be watching network news for the first time in 3 months and caught Morgan blasting the Green – magnificent.

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  5. Ross12 (930 comments) says:

    Even James Lovelock ( the uber Green who “invented” the concept of Gaia ) would seem to agree , in part at least, with Gareth.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jun/15/james-lovelock-interview-gaia-theory?intcmp=122

    Just one nice quote
    “Lovelock does not miss a chance to criticise the green movement that has long paid heed to his views. “It’s just the way the humans are that if there’s a cause of some sort, a religion starts forming around it. It just so happens that the green religion is now taking over from the Christian religion”

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  6. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    Frankly I’m amazed that the media have given the Greens what has basically been a free ride until now. Left wing bloggers like DimPost seem to have a policy of ignoring all the pseudoscience bullshit, despite having rigorous standards for all other parties of note.

    Good on Morgan for giving them a serve, at a Forest & Bird meeting no less.

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  7. Peter (1,471 comments) says:

    About time someone gave the Greens a rocket for their duality.

    Are the NZ media blind, or just party members? Get the Green’s co-leader in, ask them the difficult questions – just do your job.

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  8. Dave Stringer (182 comments) says:

    Re the statement Lovelock ( the uber Green who “invented” the concept of Gaia ) )

    The reality is that the first documented version of Gaia in western writing was by the prolific Isac Asimov, who gave not just reference, but also definition and substance to the Gaian concept by the phrase I/We/Gaia.

    It is a cocept worthy of research and belief as it is based on deepunderstanding of base science, as well as strong insights into the ways people think.

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  9. Redbaiter (6,481 comments) says:

    “Are the NZ media blind, or just party members?”

    Party members.

    The Commies have worked for decades to get them in to their leading media positions.

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  10. Ross12 (930 comments) says:

    The media could start by looking at the Rio+20 conference that starts this week. Some of the proposals being put forward there are to the left of Marx.

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  11. andretti (124 comments) says:

    pot calling the kettle black here,Morgan is a warmist

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  12. andretti (124 comments) says:

    I must say im a bit like the greens really,my minds made up.as soon as a warmist opens his/her mouth I turn off

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  13. DJP6-25 (1,235 comments) says:

    What do the first three letters of conservation spell?

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  14. mister nui (885 comments) says:

    Exactly DJP. Also note how you can’t spell the word “environmentalist” without the use of mental.

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  15. wat dabney (3,462 comments) says:

    We need more evidence-based decision making, and less emotion-based decision making.

    A continual stream of invented crises is the Greens’ ticket to power. Their lies about global warming, peak oil and fracking are no accident but rather their cynical efforts to scare people into voting for fascism. If that doesn’t work I fully expect them to start accusing Jews of poisoning the wells.

    Incidentally, I saw the march by a few lower-decile Pacific islanders on the news yesterday and happened to see the Green banner in the throng. That’s the same Green party that seeks to further impoverish these people with eye-wateringly high power prices as cheap coal and gas are discarded in favour of obscene renewables, and as the possibility of a new generation of high-paying jobs is refused as a domestic oil and gas extraction industry is declined.

    Like all lefties, the Greens are determined to keep people poor and ignorant in order to harness their discontent.

    Let me just drop this here again – the facts about fracking, as opposed to the Greens’ lies:

    http://www.truthlandmovie.com/

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  16. PaulL (5,776 comments) says:

    My main concern with restrictions on drilling and mining is that I think the price of oil, gas and minerals generally shrinks over time. That is, better to dig them up now and sell them before someone finds a replacement for them that’s cheaper. Like, for example, thorium powered molten salt reactors.

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  17. jaba (2,069 comments) says:

    I can’t believe he said what he said and where he said it BUT well done Gareth
    the time has come to put the heat on them on national TV .. and not just their communist and financial guru Red Russel. Get the anarchist on and hammer them.
    When John Key appeared on the scene and especially when he became party leader, he was investigated and quizzed mercilessly by the MSM, why hasn’t this happened to the Gweens?

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  18. mikenmild (8,888 comments) says:

    “We need more evidence-based decision making, and less emotion-based decision making.”
    Ha! Tell us again about the cost/benefit ratio for Tansmission Gully and the other ‘roads of national significance’.

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  19. thedavincimode (6,129 comments) says:

    Like, for example, thorium powered molten salt reactors.

    Oh yeah. I gotta get me one of those. Whatever they are. :(

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  20. thedavincimode (6,129 comments) says:

    Ah milky. Cost benefit is in the eye of the beholder.

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  21. Peter (1,471 comments) says:

    Ha! Tell us again about the cost/benefit ratio for Tansmission Gully

    Sure.

    Do you believe AGW leads to sea level rise? If so, then the coastal road out of Wellington will soon be unusable, therefore we need an inland route. Or perhaps you don’t believe in AGW or sea level rise?

    What is it to be?

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  22. mikenmild (8,888 comments) says:

    Peter
    When do you think the sea level will reach that height?

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  23. PaulL (5,776 comments) says:

    Not so hard to find thedavincimode. Up and coming technology. Try http://www.energyfromthorium.com/about/, or http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/348 for an article. Or google for thorium reactors, and find articles in the Sydney Morning Herald and other places.

    The short summary is a reactor that uses Thorium (more easily found than uranium, and found in places like the USA and India, which makes those countries happy, less proliferation prone as it’s hard to make weapons from) and a molten salt reactor like the ones they used (briefly) at the Oak Ridge national laboritory in the 1960s. These have the advantage again that they’re less proliferation prone, they run at normal atmospheric pressure (so no explosion when things go wrong), and they are passively safe – overheating causes them to stop working.

    The combination of these two creates a nuclear cycle that can consume the waste from existing nuclear plants, burns near 100% of the input fuel (rather than about 5% for existing uranium plants), and creates a very different set of radioactive byproducts. Many of the byproducts have useful medical uses (think xrays and radiation therapy for cancer), the remaining ones are either quite radioactive and therefore hang around only for a few hundred years, or not very radioactive and hang around for a long long time. Bottom line, easier waste disposal.

    All in all a good thing, probably 10-15 years to commercialise, less if there weren’t so many rules and regulations. There is also a vested interest / existing capital investment problem with the existing uranium industry.

    There are other similar nuclear plants out there – you can use thorium in a solid reactor more similar to our existing uranium reactors. The design isn’t as inherently safe as molten salt, but easier to fit into existing knowledge. Conversely, you can run a molten salt reactor with uranium, that has a similar fuel burnup but isn’t quite so good on the proliferation front.

    In short, nuclear is finally coming of age, after having been stymied by the Greens for about 40 years. The history of civilisation is one of decarbonisation and increasing energy density: wood -> peat -> coal -> oil -> gas -> nuclear. You’ll note that renewables don’t appear on this list – because they have lower energy density and (arguably) a bigger carbon footprint than gas. They’re not part of the future, they’re a sideline.

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  24. thedavincimode (6,129 comments) says:

    PaulL

    Thanks. I did a v quick recee on Wiki. It seems that those cunning bloody Chinese are working on it and have been for a while. Whose going to buy our luverly coal then? :(

    I’m with you. We better dig it all up and sell it – quick time.

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  25. Casey (10 comments) says:

    There’s a huge gap in the NZ political landscape for a real Green party – I mean a Green Party who’s only priorities are green issues, not some extreme left wing group pretending to be that. The new party should have no left or right wing bias, just a political will to work with whichever party will work with them to further green issues….forget asset sales, ACC, retirement ages etc, what’s that got to do with green issues…..focus on what they’re mean’t to be.

    That party, I’d probably give them at least a constituency seat.

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  26. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    Revenue Canada, the tax-collecting arm of the government, has refused to recognize the new Greenpeace Environmental Foundation as
    a charity, saying its activities have ‘no public benefit’ and that lobbying to shut down industries could send people ‘into poverty’.

    Just witness the opinions of some of the leftist commenters and trolls on this blog.

    Despite being utterly discredited and responsible for the deaths of over 100 million people in half a century, people are still seduced by the idea of ‘equality’ and ‘fairness’ as they see it.
    For these people, no amount of real world evidence will change their opinions. In fact, the evidence you show them, in their minds, doesn’t even exist.
    Marxism is a seductive doctrine. It sounds great on the surface, it’s only once you get down to the nuts and bolts that you realise just how insidious an ideology it truly is. It’s an ideology based on the removal of individual rights in place of the ‘collective’.
    In other words, at it’s core, people are subjugated to the government. The government controls all and the people control nothing. All in the name of equality. But in the minds of it’s supporters, the evils weren’t the fault of the ideology, they were the fault of the people who implemented them. “They weren’t good socialists”.
    Either that, or they attribute the socialist ideology to those on the right and call them ‘far-right’. It doesn’t matter that at the time those so called ‘far-right’ opinions were extremely popular amongst the left, nor does it matter that members of the ‘far-right’ openly attacked the free market system and that most of their propaganda was almost indistinguishible from the propaganda of the USSR. In the minds of the modern left they weren’t left wing. No evidence will change their mind (just watch).
    That this insidious and cancerous ideology is still taken seriously is a testament to the stubborness of many and the need to take the easy road and make an easy explanation for anything. We can only hope that it eventually dies the way it should.

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  27. Manolo (12,637 comments) says:

    The Luddites deserve to be confined to the asylum instead of Parliament.

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  28. thedavincimode (6,129 comments) says:

    Casey, I can tell that you are new at this. I mean, a Green party that’s actually Green!! Pfft!

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  29. thedavincimode (6,129 comments) says:

    confined to the asylum instead of Parliament

    Manolo, I think you might be missing your own point. Aren’t they already in the asylum?

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  30. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    What’s offensive if it changes people to become lovers of peace instead of warmongers, or users of clean energy instead of polluters, or tolerant of other peoples religions, races, culture and heritage instead of being monoculturalist rednecks and racists ?

    And if it takes a few million deaths in the re-educative process, well, it’s all in a good cause!

    Can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, eh !

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  31. Viking2 (10,733 comments) says:

    http://screencast.com/t/tNZP6T80Wj

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  32. orewa1 (425 comments) says:

    Casey – “There’s a huge gap in the NZ political landscape for a real Green party – I mean a Green Party who’s only priorities are green issues, not some extreme left wing group pretending to be that.”

    Hear hear to that. New Zealand needs a “green party” (lower case) but it should stick to its green knitting.

    I don’t always go along with Gareth Morgan, and I judge the Greens on their policies one by one, so I am absolutely on the fence. But I admire both Russell Norman’s increased polish as a potential leader of the opposition, and Morgan’s guts in getting in and challenging them with what they need to hear.

    Morgan, I suspect, has lobbed a grenade into the middle of the political landscape. This will be fun to watch in coming days.

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  33. Ross12 (930 comments) says:

    Casey and orewa 1.

    I can see where you are coming from and agree , in general, even though I suspect I would not agree with all the policies you may want. ( eg. I am strongly against the ETS /AGW related issues.)
    But if you were to get your wish I would suggest that the party be called ” The Environment Party” or something similar. You would need to disassociate yourselves from the Greens. This is because of what has been said above — world wide the Green movement is getting more associated with the far left as it is in NZ.
    Orewa 1 — don’t be fooled by Norman, just because he started weraing a suit.

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  34. hj (5,703 comments) says:

    The theme evolvong at the Rio Summit is at odds with biculturalism:

    “Commons are not just common goods or assets. They are not “things” separate from us. They are not simply water, the forest, or ideas. They are social practices of commoning, of acting together, based on principles of sharing, stewarding, and producing in common. To ensure this, *all* those who participate in a common have the right to an *equal* voice in making decisions on the provisions and rules governing its management.

    Examples of the rich variety of such experiences and innovations include systems for community management of forests, canals, fisheries and land; the numerous processes of commoning in the digital world such as initiatives for free culture or free and open software; non-commercial initiatives for access to housing in cities; strategies for cooperative consumption associated with social currencies; and many others. All of these commons are clearly forms of management that differ from market-based ones and from those organized by* hierarchical structures*. Together they offer a kaleidoscope rich in self-organization and self-determination. All are neglected and marginalized in conventional political and economic analyses. All are based on the idea that no one can have a satisfactory life if not integrated into social relations, and that one’s full personal unfolding depends on the unfolding of others and vice versa. The borders between the particular interest and the collective interest are blurred in a commons.”
    http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-06-08/commons-emerges-theme-people%E2%80%99s-summit-rio

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  35. cows4me (248 comments) says:

    The melons are fucktards, yes i know this is an unhelpful statement. They fail to recognize that an increasing wealthy population is also a greener population. The examples of technical advancement due to wealth generation fails to resister to these fruitloops. When I was young, say 30 years ago the technology was not avaliable to dispose of animal effluent except into the nearest drain. Not now, we can use a number of systems to either spread, irrigate, dehydrate or compost the same material and ultimately make money out of these systems. What the Melons fail to realise that only through increased individual wealth will the environment ever get better. But that is not their game, they are evil pieces of work whose only real wish is control and subjugation.

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  36. hj (5,703 comments) says:

    Frogblog

    Server error

    The website encountered an error while retrieving http://blog.greens.org.nz/. It may be down for maintenance or configured incorrectly.
    tch, tch, tch!

    Fogblog is heavily censored btw.

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  37. hj (5,703 comments) says:

    cows4me (227) Says:
    June 17th, 2012 at 8:43 pm
    The melons are fucktards, yes i know this is an unhelpful statement. They fail to recognize that an increasing wealthy population is also a greener population.
    ….
    John Travolta is a good example.

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  38. hj (5,703 comments) says:

    As Chris Trotter says if someone from Act said the sort of things Catherine Delahunty says the media would be all over it.
    ==========

    Catherine Delahunty, Green MP new Zealand
    Posted May 4, 2010 at 9:23 AM
    We are in fact having that conversation on this blog and I would like to add that demograpically speaking the Pakeha majority is a temporary phenomena. A Maori, Pacific and Asian population will be the majority and Pakeha will be the minority culture eventually. So before we start panicking and putting up walls we have to start talking. There is room for different models within this nation. If anyone watches “Native Affairs” on Maori Television you might have heard Professor David Williams explaining the examples such as the Scottish Parliament in UK, the Sami Parliament in Sweden and the work peoples such as Tuhoe are doing here on their mana motuhake (which is sometimes interpreted as unity and self determination) but we have to be wary of trying to describe tangata whenua structural models according to Pakeha political definitions. The conversation is well underway but to make it work we will have to look in our own mirror and recognise the good things about our current democracy as well as the way in which it has not benefited indigenous rights. As a Green I am very comfortable with an open dialogue under Te Tiriti which recognises that participatory decision making and consensus as well as a place for voting improves social harmony and quality decision making. You only have to be in Parliament to see that robust debate is actually abuse and that the power of numbers dominate in unhelpful ways. Whether it is a redundant monarch or an elected President is not relevant to the real constitutional changes we need to make and we this needs a careful national process, nit a series of referenda assisted by talk back radio
    ============================
    “I am very excited that we are moving into a more sophisticated era under Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and we are moving beyond the limited concept of conservative Pākehā that one man, one vote is the only manifestation of democracy possible in Aotearoa.’
    http://www.greens.org.nz/speeches/more-sophisticated-era-under-te-tiriti-o-waitangi
    =====================================
    We must debate a more vibrant participatory solution to the constitutional issues. Microcosms exist in the legendary two house models used in organisations such as the Tangata Whenua Community/ Voluntary Sector and the Women’s Refuge movement. Not to mention the three houses of the Anglican Church.
    My choice would be that a reforming Bill of this natures upheld
    http://blog.greens.org.nz/2010/04/26/republican-referenda-or-te-tiriti-based-reform/

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  39. hj (5,703 comments) says:

    Republican Referenda or Te Tiriti Based Reform? | frogblog
    blog.greens.org.nz/…/republican-referenda-or-te-tiriti-based-reform/

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  40. DJP6-25 (1,235 comments) says:

    mister nui 2:16 pm. Good one. I hadn’t thought of that.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  41. DJP6-25 (1,235 comments) says:

    jaba 4:08pm. The same reason sharks don’t attack lawyers.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  42. Kimble (4,092 comments) says:

    In short, nuclear is finally coming of age, after having been stymied by the Greens for about 40 years.

    Good post PaulL.

    I feel techappy everytime I hear about thorium salt reactors. After a little while I come back down to earth, thinking the public will probably be turned against the technology. I can just imagine the Greens calling for a moratorium on the technology until it is proven 100% safe.

    Their side has their champion, and they’re not about to sit down and watch him fall.

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  43. Yoza (1,352 comments) says:

    The crazy rants that happen on this blog fill those of us on the real left with confidence as the right expose the insanity on which they base their ‘mandate’ for implementing policy.

    A classic example:
    mister nui (735) Says:
    June 17th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
    “Exactly DJP. Also note how you can’t spell the word “environmentalist” without the use of mental.”

    A quick google of the definition of the word ‘mental’ generates the follow example:
    men·tal/ˈmentl/
    Adjective:
    Of or relating to the mind.
    Carried out by or taking place in the mind.

    You would think someone would attempt to muzzle this kind of crazy shit, but no! Apparently it is to be encouraged:

    DJP6-25 (979) Says:
    June 17th, 2012 at 10:19 pm
    “mister nui 2:16 pm. Good one. I hadn’t thought of that.

    cheers

    David Prosser”

    I do not think Gareth Morgan would support mineral extraction on any of those sub-Antarctic islands he appears to care so passionately about, it is a shame that passion does not extend to the sub-tropical islands on which we rely to sustain our existence. It would be easier to support such mineral extraction if the returns from the exploitation of those resources were all returned to this country in the form of some kind of sovereign wealth fund.

    The privately owned corporations which are involved in extracting this country’s finite resources are primarily responsive to the profit motives of their majority share holders; if environmentally acceptable practices are considered too detrimental to short/medium term profits they will be discarded and the New Zealand tax-payer and local communities will be left to deal with the potential of any environmentally disastrous consequences generated by that trade off.

    Gareth Morgan demonstrated how out of touch with political reality he is when he observes,“We still have a Green party that refuses to go into coalition with National.” then posited the, I’m assuming rhetorical, question: “What the hell is that about!?” Really! If the Green party want to cease to exist overnight, then the ideal way to achieve such an objective would be to enter into a coalition government with the National party. It is a little difficult to take seriously someone who has such a tenuous understanding of New Zealand’s political landscape.

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  44. asterisk.4 (13 comments) says:

    Morgan’s right, but I’m not sure about his method. One speech won’t change the party’s positions due to the integrity of their policy-making processes. He’d be better off to join and change them from the inside. Of course, that’s a lot of time for one person. A larger influx of like-minded members is needed.

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  45. hj (5,703 comments) says:

    Yoza:
    “It would be easier to support such mineral extraction if the returns from the exploitation of those resources were all returned to this country in the form of some kind of sovereign wealth fund.”
    ………

    CLENDON CHALLENGES MINISTERIAL NO ON OFFSHORE DRILLING
    Green MP David Clendon isn’t taking no for an answer over whether Maori have a right to a share in oil and gas under New Zealand’s continental shelf.
    http://www.greens.org.nz/speeches/marine-and-coastal-area-takutai-moana-bill-david-clendon-speaks-first-reading

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  46. Paulus (2,298 comments) says:

    Do you really think that the Greens will take the slightest notice of what Morgan says ?

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