Teacher unions call on schools to flout the law
June 29th, 2012 at 12:00 pm by David FarrarJohn Hartevelt at Stuff reports:
Teacher unions have told schools to flout the law and refuse to release national standards data to the media.
But some schools have already released figures showing how many of their students are meeting the standards and what they’re doing to improve achievement.
The Dominion Post has asked schools across the Wellington region to release the information they were required to send to the Education Ministry about the number of pupils at, above, below or well below national standards in reading, writing and maths.
The ministry declined a request for the data, but acting senior manager Dennis Cribb said individual schools could be approached.
About 10 have already responded with information and others have indicated their data will be forthcoming.
Some of the data released includes results from 2010 and 2011, showing pupils’ progress between years.
But teachers union, the New Zealand Educational Institute, said schools should not give results to the news media and should instead refer any requests for the information to the ministry.
“We are entering a new era of `naming and shaming’ schools in order to sell newspapers and even worse, the publication of league tables will be unfair and based on faulty, misleading and valueless misinformation,” NZEI president Ian Leckie said.
The Principals’ Federation has also advised schools on ways to try to prevent league tables being created from the information they supply.
In an “urgent” advisory, NZPF president Paul Drummond suggested schools should “consider reporting in general terms”.
Mr Leckie said parents wanting to know about a school’s performance should talk with the teachers and principal. They could also look at Education Review Office reports.
I never knew that the Official Information Act did not apply to schools. Oh wait, it does.
One should read ERO reports and talk to teachers and principals at schools. One should also talk to pupils and parents. But one should also have an interest in the assessment data for the school. All of them together help make for informed decisions.
No tag for this post.
June 29th, 2012 at 12:11 pm
We, the tax payer who fund a massive education establishment,and pay teachers salaries are entitled to know how they are doing.
The unions are opposing this as it means an end to a very cushy way of doing things.
National standards ,bring it on.
In fact they need to reintroduce examinations at primary and intermediate. As well as in the first 2 years of secondary.
Education has been dumbed down something terrible. Students and society have lost out while teachers have had an easy ride.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
If the media want to print the unadulterated nonsense that is reporting against the national standards, I should say go for it.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:34 pm
Remember – Teachers are above the law.
Laws do not apply to them (or the Greens).
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
David
You have conceded that league tables will be based on poor data, the minister has accepted the data is inconsistent and yet you are hell bent on league tables based on unreliable data, why is that? I have no issue per se with league tables if they are soundly based on reliable, properly moderated data so there is consistency. The national standards programme put in place by Tolley is shambolic. It is not providing consistent data between schools and it does not pick up the improvements made during the year.
You would be highly critical of stats producing dodgy CPI data but you offer no criticism of a dodgy national standards system.
League tables for secondary schools are fine as they are based on NCEA results. A standard properly established and moderated by NZQA.
I am surprised that you of all people are a cheerleader for tables being produced based on dodgy data. Why not focus of fixing the national standard programme first. Get that working properly so that it is consistently applied and independently moderated then produce reliable tables.
This process is based on a political ideology that has little to do with enhancing the education of our kids.
I do not agree with the law being flouted by schools but understand their frustration
[DPF: You seem to not understand we live in a free and open society. It does not matter whether the data held on schools is perfect or flawed. The Government does not have the legal right to stop media from gaining that data. Nor should it. It is not for the Government to decide what information the media can be trusted with.
If the data is flawed then you explain that. You fight bad data with good data, just as you fight bad speech with good speech. You do not and can not prohibit its release.
When I see dodgy stats out there, I criticise them and point out what would be a better comparison. I have never called for the data on which stats are based to be suppressed.]
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
So why is statistics part of the general mathmatics syllabus in schools, and open for all students to study ?
Why then in this case, don’t the Teachers Union simply choose the students who they think will interpret statistics correctly ?
Say for example …..Vladmir ?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
It’s a wonder that anyone would want to be a teacher given the sort of bullshit idiots like kowtow say about them.
All the teachers I know are hard working and passionate about what they do.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:39 pm
Point of order:
You know who else once FLOUTED THE LAW? Your mate Cameron Slater. It’s what you do when you believe the law is wrong.
But yeah, it’s hard to feel any support or sympathy for the union’s arguments.
They have no clear reasons for why the data and the creation of “league tables” would be bad for students. That’s why parents have rejected this BS – just as they rejected National’s equally elaborate-sounding theories that they can make schools better by cutting the number of teachers
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:41 pm
Yeswedid:
Kowtow is what redbaiter would be like if you neutered him.
I don’t think any views it expresses are terribly representative of anyone at all out there in the real world…
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Mark, it is also obvious that the opposition to the reporting is “This process is based on a political ideology that has little to do with enhancing the education of our kids.” The opposition is not driven by teachers, but by the Union, and that for purely personal and political reasons. Teacher unions have never, ever, been about “enhancing the education of our kids”, and probably never will be, but it will always be represented as being such.
This is another example of the mentality of the left, “the rules only apply to little people who do not have the good of the whole society resting on the shoulders, like we always do”. So they feel entirely justified, no, mandated, to defy all the laws that interfere with their given mission to bring “enlightenment” to the uncaring and ignorant masses. But anyone who opposes them should (of course !) not only be subject to every law that exists, but quite a few that don’t but, in their entirely correct I’m sure opionons, should exists just for people with that sort of blinkered mindset…
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
RRM
You wouldn’t perchance, have a veterinarian qualification lying about in the bottom draw would you?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
@YesWeDid
“All the teachers I know are hard working and passionate about what they do.”
Well, if you say so, it must be true.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 1:07 pm
@Other_Andy -
All the teachers I know are hard working and passionate about what they do, too. So there’s two votes in the affirmative.
Do YOU know any incompetent, bumbling, useless teachers?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 1:16 pm
@RRM
“Do YOU know any incompetent, bumbling, useless teachers?”
There is a bit of a gap between “hard working and passionate about what they do” and “incompetent, bumbling and useless”.
Vote:But yes, I have worked with teachers ranging from ‘zero’ to ‘hero’……
June 29th, 2012 at 1:20 pm
I’m just hanging out for the spectacle of a Minister standing up and demanding people comply with the OIA. That would be hilarious.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Ed
Vote:‘The opposition is not driven by teachers, but by the Union’
Ha ha – it’s a union of TEACHERS! It’s also opposed by everyone else involved in education.
June 29th, 2012 at 1:22 pm
lyndon
Vote:Laugh of the day so far!
June 29th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
@mm
“It’s also opposed by everyone else involved in education.”
Another sweeping statement…..
Vote:Just because you say so and just because a group shouts, protests, threatens with all sorts of actions and has a sympathetic ear from the compliant and biased media doesn’t make it true,
I know for a FACT that your statement is untrue.
June 29th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
Will there be a list of schools that listern to the union dick heads published.?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 1:57 pm
David Farrar – Banging on about teachers and unions since before 2003.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 2:52 pm
Interesting that DPF hasn’t seen fit to do an entry decrying the Ministry of Education flouting the law by also refusing to release this public information. John Key and Parata have both said the govt needs to publish their own league tables to prevent inaccurate media produced ones being out there. The schools are only doing as the govt seems to want them to do.
Also this isn’t a case of multiple teachers unions against the league tables, but only one teacher union, the NZEI, along with a principals union, NZFP. The PPTA has said nothing against the league tables and allows such tables to be compiled on secondary schools without complaint. The real problem seems to be that the National Standards need improvement to actually make them standardised.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 2:53 pm
So if the system is so good how come up to 20% of children go from primary to intermediate and then onto failing in secondary because they can neither read or write?
Under School Cert something like 30% of youngsters failed the exams.
And because of those failures we lowered the standard further and introduced NCEA,which initially 50% were failing.
rrm probably doesn’t have a vet qual in a bottom drawer but he might have other things in his bottom.
nass,yes and rrm could form a mutual society and play with each others nuts.While reminiscing about former teachers!
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
O_A
Vote:I apologise – it’s only opposed by the vast majority of education professionals.
kowtow
Got a source for the much-talked about 20%?
June 29th, 2012 at 3:01 pm
[DPF: You seem to not understand we live in a free and open society. It does not matter whether the data held on schools is perfect or flawed. The Government does not have the legal right to stop media from gaining that data. Nor should it. It is not for the Government to decide what information the media can be trusted with.
If the data is flawed then you explain that. You fight bad data with good data, just as you fight bad speech with good speech. You do not and can not prohibit its release.
When I see dodgy stats out there, I criticise them and point out what would be a better comparison. I have never called for the data on which stats are based to be suppressed.]
In a free society the media also bears a responsibility to the public or it certainly used to. it has a responsibility to disclose the facts. you argue to fight bad data with good data which is fine if good data existed but you know full well it doesn’t as the Tolley system of standards is a farce. If Fairfax was prepared to investigate national standards properly and do a piece that balanced the dodgy data with commentary on where it is weak then I would have no issue, but that is not going to happen. This is not about kids getting a better deal, this is about belting teachers and using poor data to do it. I’m not a teacher, I’m a parent who in the past has always been a national supporter but I am afraid this government has completely lost me on their motivation behind their education policy.
You and I have a very different view on what responsibility the media has in a free and open society and just regurgitating dodgy data simply irresponsible and unprofessional.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
@mikenmild
“I apologise – it’s only opposed by the vast majority of education professionals.”
The vast majority? And that is based on what?
Vote:All education professionals I have talked to do not oppose it.
June 29th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
@YesWeDid (726) – And I know some teachers that can’t be described in such positive terms. I also know some good teachers who are confounded by the teaching environment around them which makes it harder for them to teach subjects which are simply not popular in the modern teaching environment, so they get low priority or focus. Subjects such as reading, writing, spelling and, the classic, arithmetic.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 3:14 pm
mikenmeld (4654) – yes a union of teachers, with the usual union tactics of open ballots (usually of raise of hands, or even better, the union rep saying “we are doing this, anybody against! Right, carried.”). So, the good teachers, the ones who want to teach, quietly acquiesce in order to keep the peace. I think is called being cooperative.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 3:18 pm
@mark (653) – I have a different idea on what a free and open society means. I think it should actually be “free” and “open”, not the opposite of those two words.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
O_A
Vote:Got a list of education professionals who endore national standards?
OneTrack
Could you remind me again of the NZEI or PPTA’s policies on ballots and elections?
June 29th, 2012 at 3:36 pm
@mikenmild
“O_A Got a list of education professionals who endore [sic] national standards?”
Up to your old tricks again mm?
Vote:Answering questions with questions…
You answer my question first.
“The vast majority? And that is based on what?”
After you’ve done that ……
What sort of list do you want?
All the teachers I have spoken to, firstname, last name, address?
Or don’t you consider teachers to be ‘education professionals’?
June 29th, 2012 at 3:43 pm
mm are you a civil servant?
Any way here’s some appaling reading in answer to your question. So much for teachers doing a great job. I stand by my earlier comments.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/4841267/School-leavers-lack-basic-literacy-skills
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:12 pm
Kowtow,
Try reading a little further.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7157181/Are-we-raising-a-nation-of-dunces
“New Zealand Principals’ Federation president Paul Drummond said principals and teachers were reporting increasing numbers of children arriving at school lacking basic abilities. ‘The disparity and the gaps around student readiness for school is disturbing. There are developmental differences anyway, but you would hope that 5-year-olds would arrive at school with the skills to talk and have vocab that reading and writing can be built from.’ It showed how ridiculous it was to expect every child to reach a national standard, when some started from such low levels, he said.”
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
> It does not matter whether the data held on schools is…flawed.
Priceless. Only the Right could spout such garbage.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
O_A
Vote:So you think a poll of teachers would support your postion? Good luck with that.
kowtow
But the education minister promised national standards would fix that. Don’t you believe her?
June 29th, 2012 at 4:24 pm
@ross69
That statement (principals and teachers were reporting increasing numbers of children arriving at school lacking basic abilities) is correct as are these (‘The disparity and the gaps around student readiness for school is disturbing. There are developmental differences anyway).
The conclusion however (’ It showed how ridiculous it was to expect every child to reach a national standard, when some started from such low levels, he said.”) is rubbish.
Vote:Nobody expect a child to reach every or even any national standard.
Unfortunately, some children will never achieve some standards.
National Standards are about reporting standards and progress so parents know how their child is achieving as an individual and as compared with others.
June 29th, 2012 at 4:27 pm
Typical lefty doublespeak. “We must control your lives for you to be free.”
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
@mikenmild
“O_A So you think a poll of teachers would support your postion? Good luck with that.”
And you STILL haven’t answered my question.
Vote:As for a poll, you might be surprised…..
June 29th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
The value of the national standards to parents of school children just plummeted because they have become high stakes for the school and for teachers.
There will be all sorts of unintended consequences as well…
Vote:– already high decile schools are making parents pay for subscriptions to “drill and kill” websites and international standardised test (ICAS – http://www.eaa.unsw.edu.au/icas/about) that the low decile schools can’t hope to match
– there will be more and more testing so that a kid can get an “above standard”/”at standard” on at least one of them and so can be given the higher rank
– ESL kids and kids with diabilities will be directed to go to other schools because that other school will be a better “fit”
– parents will be asked to consider their child staying back a year for “social” reasons when the real reason is that the kid distorts the stats for his/her age group
– kids will get shifted around schools because parents think some other school is better when, even if it really is better, it’s more likely the shift itself and the extra travel time will negate the effect
– and kids who don’t fit into school or can’t play the game of school will just be even more discouraged when what they do is always below standard no matter how hard they try
June 29th, 2012 at 4:36 pm
ross69
I don’t need to read further.
Schools should be ble to deal wth these issues,they have done in time gone by. All of a sudden there are huge social problems for primary to overcome……..gosh how this coincides with the political campaign against national standards.
Huge amounts of taxpayers money has gone into the social engineering of pre school,including an insistence of raising professional standards in those too. And now kids can’t say banana and that;s the fucken end of the world to the moaners in primary.
How much money is spent on reading recovery? Ba na na, there you go ,easy as that.
I know of a number of schools ,secondary, where they boast about the efforts they have to go to to bring the incoming intermediates up to standard, There is something very wrong with our education system and what I see is primary principals getting mighty worked up to prevent improvement.
And if princpials like Drummond are concerned that children are coming to school lacking whatever,well the thing to remember is that it was the left and unions who wanted this type of society,to do away with discipline,the traditional family unit ,equality for women,feminism, the whole shooting match…..
They got what they wanted, now they can live with the consequences.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Just quickly on this one.
If the kid is “distorting” the stats for their age group, doesnt that really just mean that they are lagging their peer group in knowledge and understanding? Dont you want those kids to learn? What value is there in promoting them past the level they already cannot handle?
The main argument for graduating kids beyond their appropriate level is almost exclusively for SOCIAL REASONS!
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:56 pm
I guess it would depend on why they are currently behind and whether repeating a year would be worthwhile. The greater expectations of a higher class may move them further ahead then if they had stayed behind and repeated.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:58 pm
Mark makes a very good point with regards to the role of the media in reporting this sort of material. Both left and right of the political spectrum seem to lack faith in media to do this well.
But when we get down to the nitty gritty reality, the truth is that parents who give a shit where their kids go to school are those whose kids are going to do better. The failing tail are (generally) the kids of parents who don’t give a shit. Might seem like an argument for not publishing any data since the caring parents will flee the worst performing schools, and perhaps they will, but that ignores the government use of data – which is to channel more resources into the worst schools in order to lift achievement. I don’t see there can be any valid argument against that use of the stats.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 4:59 pm
Kimble
The OECD (who run the PISA programme) advises against kids repeating as it is counterproductive. Of course, the OECD ses impartially gathered evidence, which probably disqualifies that organisation in your view, anyway.
O-A
You are so full of shit. Sure, some teachers are ignorant enought to support National Standards, but the thoughtful ones, the vast majority who voted overwhelmingly in favour of NZEI’s campaign against National Standards, understand the harm to our kid’s education that will accrue from league tables constructed from, essentially, a rubbish “assessment”.
This is yet another DPF dogwhistle that has resulted in the usual suspects, reliably ignorant and prejudiced, spewing their “hatred and bile” (hat tip: DPF).
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
“This is yet another DPF dogwhistle that has resulted in the usual suspects, reliably ignorant and prejudiced, spewing their “hatred and bile”” (hat tip: IRONY)
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:01 pm
Hatred and bile? Really? We have a political position that is different to yours, but while yours is reasoned and thoughtful ours is hatred and bile?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:02 pm
RightNow
Metro does an excellent job using NCEA results and taking into account the decile rank and general school environment. The magazine uses experts to analyse and interpret the data.
The same could be done with primary schools, but the data needs to be credible. The campaign DPF should be running is for a moderation process to be introduced and for experts to devise a fair comparison for the schools.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
FES
Indeed. For once we agree.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Luc,
that ain’t agreement. It is incredulity.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:14 pm
FES
You need to improve your comprehension skills.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:16 pm
FES, don’t you comprehend? Luc is from the left, it’s only hatred and bile when those on the other side spout it.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Luc Hansen I was enjoying reading a debate here with people of opposing viewpoints.
Your first post includes calling someone f”ull of shit” Teachers that disagree with your point of view “ignorant” and others that have a different viewpoint full of “hatred and bile”
Had a bad day Luc? Or is this normal for you?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
luc hansen is not a “usual suspect”
He’s a confirmed $%#&*^*.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:33 pm
Wayne, stick around. I do not return serve as good as I get.
O_A throws far worse at me, unprovoked, and the “hate and Bile” was merely intended as a humourous play on the headline of an earlier post by our host.
And no, I’m having fun. And I assure you the nasties here are fully capable of standing up for themselves.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 5:41 pm
@LH
“O-A You are so full of shit. Sure, some teachers are ignorant enought to support National Standards, but the thoughtful ones, the vast majority who voted overwhelmingly in favour of NZEI’s campaign against National Standards, understand the harm to our kid’s education that will accrue from league tables constructed from, essentially, a rubbish “assessment”.”
As usual attacking the man not the message. Abuse when you can’t get the facts. Now you are dishing teachers and calling them ignorant for not supporting National Standards? They aren’t as smart as Luc Hansen, the one who is always right on everything.
Vote:You seem use the same tactics for everything.
If people disagree with you, you call them ignorant and stupid while using ‘argumentum ad populum’ and ’appeal to authority’ to make your point.
You are a sad and bitter little person who thinks that his opinion is the only valid one.
I have been at the coalface of education for the last 30 years and I can see that what we have now isn’t working.
What do you know about teaching and education?
June 29th, 2012 at 5:50 pm
@Luc Hansen
“O_A throws far worse at me, unprovoked, and the “hate and Bile” was merely intended as a humourous play on the headline of an earlier post by our host.”
‘Argumentum ad populum’, ’appeal to authority’ and now Tu quoque.
Realy Luc, do I?
Worse and unprovoked?
You can of course back this up with facts…..
If I don’t hear back I surely am entitled (As everybody else here) to call you a fraud and a liar.
Vote:Because that is what a person who doesn’t tell the facts it called.
So Luc, are you telling the truth or are you a fraud and a liar?
Are you backing up your accusations with facts, are you going to slither away or are you going to make excuses.
I’ll wait ………..
June 29th, 2012 at 5:56 pm
Wait no longer!
You have just provided what you are asking me for, O_A
I rest my case.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
You call that a case?
This is a case http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-e/353851327/
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:07 pm
@LH
Wait no longer!
You have just provided what you are asking me for, O_A
I rest my case.
So, no facts, no examples of the “hatred and bile” I throw at you, unprovoked?
Vote:The Internet doesn’t forget Luc, take your time to find it.
Nothing…?
June 29th, 2012 at 6:11 pm
I saw that Hattie’s research also showed a negative effect for this factor of 0.15. That seemed surprising as one of the basic aspects of education is demonstrating mastery of each level before one proceeds to the next, whether you’re learning welding or math.
And certainly one of the teachers on here – Transmorgifier – said that simply pushing kids forward from one year to the next was one of his biggest frustrations, and one if the biggest reasons for so many kids finishing school still lacking in reading and other skills.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:16 pm
This is the comment that provoked to my “full of shit” reply (pretty mid by Kiwiblog standards) and this is why:
http://www.nationalstandards.org.nz/profiles/blogs/nz-principals-federation-votes
Quote 1: 700 principals from around the country last weekend voted “no confidence” in National Standards.
Quote 2: Meanwhile, NZEI has done a survey of teachers in primary schools around the country. More than 70% of staffrooms responding were at “boiling” or “warming up” temperatures in their reaction to the Standards
mikenmild asked O_A to back up his baseless assertions and O_A replied:
Up to your old tricks again mm?
No evidence presented, of course.
Mind you, perhaps O_A doesn’t understand that the views of a couple of teachers are not necessarily those of the vast majority.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:22 pm
So fraud and lies doesn’t count?
Oh well…maybe I’m too sensitive.
Tom Hunter
I guess that goes to show why Hattie should not be considered as the font of knowledge on matters educational. I know some of his views are controversial in the fraternity, and the OECD was clear in its views. But again, the OECD should not be regarded as unquestionable, either. I was objecting to the framing that allowing students to proceed was based on social reasons. It’s not, and NCEA is flexible enough to adapt to students continuing to move on.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:26 pm
I reckon it’s not down to what the teachers want or vote against ,after all we’re constantly being told ( Tomorrows Schools) that it’s the parents who run their schools through those boards. Isn’t it?
Oh another lie from the lefty feminist agenda ridden Labour party,looks like it’s actually the unions that run schools.
And the union has whose interests at heart? Its members of course.
This is about making schools accountable and principals don’t like that.,…..Too bad.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:31 pm
@LH
Trying to change the subject Luc?
1. mikenmild asked O_A to back up his baseless assertions and O_A replied.
What baseless assertions Luc?
2.Up to your old tricks again mm? No evidence presented, of course.
And why did I say that Luc. You didn’t leave anything out to make it look bad Luc did you?
No of course you wouldn’t
“Mind you, perhaps O_A doesn’t understand that the views of a couple of teachers are not necessarily those of the vast majority”
Of course not Luc.
I am not as smart as you Luc.
Is there anybody as smart as you Luc?
But back to the question…
Still no facts Luc?
So, no facts, no examples of the “hatred and bile” I throw at you, unprovoked?
The Internet doesn’t forget Luc, take your time to find it.
Nothing…?
All made up Luc?
What does that say about everything else you say Luc?
Where are the examples of the “hatred and bile” I throw at you, unprovoked?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:42 pm
> ross69 I don’t need to read further.
Didn’t think you did. Ignorance is bliss, eh.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Well Luc, waited long enough.
No proof to back up your false accusations.
No apology.
Now, what do you a call a person who lies and who falsely accuses somebody else of throwing “hatred and bile”, unprovoked?
According to on-line reference sources:
li•ar/ˈlīər/
Noun:
A person who tells lies.
fraud/frawd
noun
A person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Vote:But this makes you a liar and a fraud Luc.
June 29th, 2012 at 7:13 pm
Just left reading this thread to watch the report on the awards ceremony for the PI college.
My only questions is
WHY CAN’T ALL EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS ADOPT THIS MODEL AND ACHEIVE THE SAME RESULTS.?
DEREGISTER THE TEACHERS. CHOP UP THE EDUCATION DEPT. AND GIVE PARENTS VOUCHERS TO BUY THE EDUCATION THEIR KIDS DESERVE.
Go watch it. Closeup tonight.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Simples. Reduce or stop funding to schools that refuse to allow their users (parents and their children) the right to see how their school is performing. If all teachers are hard working and care about their jobs what do they have to fear? I get performance reviews at my job, most others do too. It spurs me to do better and undergo training if I am not up to scratch. As a result I am fucking good at what I do and get the salary I deserve.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 7:36 pm
Liberal Minded Kiwi,
Teachers do in fact get performance reviews every year and if they don’t reach the criteria set by the Teacher’s Council (a Crown Entity) and their school they don’t get a pay raise or could face competency proceedings that could easily end their career. Schools also get reviewed every three years by the ERO and the reports are published for all parents and the media to read. If there are concerns about a particular school the review could happen more often than every 3 years. Schools aren’t hiding their performance, they just want a fair method for comparison, which National Standards as they currenty stand are not.
Viking2,
I don’t understand why you would want to de-register all teachers. Most on the right are complaining teachers aren’t professional enough. So why would you want to remove their one professional body, the Teachers Council. Registration is how we try to keep criminals and unfit teachers out of the profession. Some have snuck through, but that isn’t an argument for opening the flood-gates. Also the dept. of education was abolished in 1989 when they brought in Tomorrow’s Schools. The current Ministry of Education has much less power and the curriculum has been broadened to allow schools much more freedom as well.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 7:40 pm
Back to the discussion.
A good piece from John Roughan on June 9 in the New Zealand Herald (Surprise!) about Education which includes National Standards.
……………….We hadn’t really seen an education uprising since the 1990s. The last Labour Government was a teachers’ government in policy and personnel and, following it, John Key had been careful to pick his battles.
The only contentious change in schools during his first term was the national standards regime for primary schools, which faced plenty of outrage from the profession.
But it was an issue teachers knew they couldn’t win. How could national standards not be a good thing?
Teachers had to grit their teeth and accept the implication that they were not already working to reasonable standards. They had to agree the language they use in reports to parents is unutterably ridiculous and they couldn’t say publicly that most parents couldn’t handle the plain truth.
Hardest of all, they knew that measuring schools against national standards would allow newspapers to publish “league tables”, creating winners and losers, and we couldn’t have that. But we’d need a certificate in education to know why.
So the teachers seethed in their staffrooms and at their conferences. Their national unions, ever vigilant against market liberalism, could make little headway against Key and his first education minister, Anne Tolley.
Teachers had no respect for Tolley, she hadn’t been one of them. She was just a parent who had taken a turn on a board of trustees. And she was so damned reasonable. Like Key she didn’t seem to have an ideological bone in her body. Both just wanted more useful information for parents and for the Government.
They were so reasonable that Tolley agreed each school could set its own standards and the results would be issued in a form that wouldn’t be a basis for league tables.
Still the teachers seethed, not all of them, of course, but the vast majority who vote Labour……………………….
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/education/news/article.cfm?c_id=35&objectid=10811795
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 8:05 pm
@Rightandleft
“Teachers do in fact get performance reviews every year and if they don’t reach the criteria set by the Teacher’s Council (a Crown Entity) and their school they don’t get a pay raise or could face competency proceedings that could easily end their career.”
While I won’t go as far as saying this never happens, I haven’t heard of a performance review being the reason for a teacher not going up the pay scale. Even if a teacher has a ‘bad’ performance review they get a second, third chance to improve. I have also haven’t heard of any teacher being fired for a ‘bad’ performance review. Most (If not all) teachers who are deregistered are deregistered for criminal offences such as assault, fraud etc.
“Schools also get reviewed every three years by the ERO and the reports are published for all parents and the media to read. If there are concerns about a particular school the review could happen more often than every 3 years. Schools aren’t hiding their performance, they just want a fair method for comparison, which National Standards as they currently stand are not.”
While schools might be judged on the results, this is not the primary reason for National Standards. First and foremost they are for parents. At the moment parents have no objective way of finding out if their child is performing to standards (There are none) and how their child compares with others.
Vote:And yes, the National Standards might not be perfect but this isn’t a reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. NCEA wasn’t a raving success when it was first introduced (Some still think it is useless but that is another discussion) but several aspects of the qualification have been changed and it has improved over the years.
June 29th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Jeez, Andy, you still going? I think your behavior tonight over a throwaway line pretty much proves what I said. I have you logged in my brain as one of the more unpleasant posters here, and you seem intent on reinforcing that.
You make wild assertions, presenting no evidence, then attack those who present facts to contradict your delusions. Hatred and bile, in my language, fully in compliance with the model DPF considered as meeting the standards for such a description.
And your above post is so full hatred and bile for teachers, qua teachers, and, just so you know, the mealy-mouthed John Roughan is not an education professional.
You have also comprehensively contradicted yourself in that you earlier objected to the fact based statement of mm that the vast majority of teachers opposed NS, yet you approvingly quote an article stereotyping all teachers as viscerally opposed to NS.
You can’t have it both ways!
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 8:19 pm
So what is the meaning of the “National” in National Standards?
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 8:32 pm
So the media will compile and publish league tables.
However the Government will have to also carry out the same exercise, as hinted at already by Prime Minister Key.
What will be interesting will be the difference between the two.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 8:41 pm
You’re still there Luc Hansen?
Projecting again?
I am finished with you.
No time for liars and frauds or people who are so up themselves that they can’t even see where they’ve gone wrong.
“And your above post is so full hatred and bile for teachers, qua teachers…”
Just so you realise what an enormous prat you are for making that statement…. I have a degree in Education and several post graduate educational degrees. In the last 30 years I have worked in at least two dozen schools overseas and in New Zealand at primary, intermediate and high school level under four different curriculae as a teacher, manager, administrator and board member.
Not that it matters as you are of course the ultimate expert on everything and anything.
Now be a good lad, go and spout your armchair Marxist theories at the Standard where you are (Perhaps) taken seriously.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 9:03 pm
If the data is flawed then you explain that. You fight bad data with good data, just as you fight bad speech with good speech.
I guess the govt ruled out the concept of not making schools compile bad data in the first place. After all, what else are schools there for?
You do not and can not prohibit its release.
Well, unless you’re the govt and you’d prefer some particular info wasn’t released, in which case there’s no depths you won’t sink to in order to pretend there’s a good reason why it would be not only unreasonable but outrageously contrary to the public interest to have said info enter the public domain. But yeah, when other people suggest it, shit that’s just plain reprehensible.
Vote:June 29th, 2012 at 10:36 pm
Ah, argument from authority from O_A.
Unlike you, I don’t claim to be an expert, i study what the experts say. You live in some kind of delusional world where evidence is notable by its absence.
And I hope you don’t go anywhere schools these days!
You never present any evidence for your bold assertions.
You never answer any presentation of evidence with evidence of your own, always preferring to attack the person.
And all that education and you still deny clime change! Epic fail for our educators.
Since I’ve never read Marx, I can’t confirm or deny your hypothesis that I am a Marxist, but if Marxists value evidence then it’s better informed company than here!
Vote:June 30th, 2012 at 6:04 am
It’s been repeated before. But this comment from DPF says it all. So again. Go David.
[DPF: You seem to not understand we live in a free and open society. It does not matter whether the data held on schools is perfect or flawed. The Government does not have the legal right to stop media from gaining that data. Nor should it. It is not for the Government to decide what information the media can be trusted with.
If the data is flawed then you explain that. You fight bad data with good data, just as you fight bad speech with good speech. You do not and can not prohibit its release.
When I see dodgy stats out there, I criticise them and point out what would be a better comparison. I have never called for the data on which stats are based to be suppressed.]
Vote:June 30th, 2012 at 8:55 am
The Government has already refused to provide the Data. The ministry were asked for this data and refused to provide it fobbing Hunt onto the schools. This would appear to be a clear breach of the OIA Section 14(b)(i) where they can only fob off Fairfax to the schools if they don’t have the data themselves.
The ministry don’t want this data published as they know it is unreliable. I just keep wondering why the right is pushing this so hard. Is it an egalitarian concern for the kids who are not achieving or is it so they can beat their chests about the fact that their decile 9 and 10 schools perform better than the lower decile schools. It would be interesting to look at those teachers supporting this as well. One suspects they are from schools in the high decile areas as well.
If you look at the data the tail of so called non achieving kids is falling rapidly since 2005. The levels of kids leaving school with NCEA Level 1 has risen steadily each year as has the numbers of Children leaving with NCEA Level 2 and University Entrance. The data is available on the Ministry of Education. In Fact almost 90% of kids leave school with the equivalent of school certificate now. So the 20% tail that National talk about is from where, pre 2005 data? but then again it appears National supporters don’t concern themselves too much with the quality of the data as long as it suits their objectives.
Vote:June 30th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Reading all the dribble from teachers on anything to do with accountability. I can come to only one conclusion. Fire them all and hire on a new crew. This has been done in other countries it can be done here.
Vote: