General Debate 10 July 2012

July 10th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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177 Responses to “General Debate 10 July 2012”

  1. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    What happened to Global Warming? It’s flippin’ freezing this morning!

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  2. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    KS: Keep up man! It’s “Climate Change” now…to accomodate that unfortunate discontinuity between what we are experiencing and the original label…

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  3. hj (5,705 comments) says:

    Key shows disrespect for Waitangi Tribunal = “Greens support Maori Council Claims to Water” (although they want to deprive the voter of the sound bite)
    “There is a major unresolved issue about what tino rangatiratanga means in the 21st century, and the Prime Minister’s glib comments will inflame rather than inform that debate.
    http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/key-shows-disrespect-waitangi-tribunal/5/128523

    Maori put ‘on hold’ while Brownlee ignores claims =
    “Greens support Maori Claims to Petroleum and minerals”

    “The Minister’s willful disregard of Maori interests is unacceptable and he must come clean,” David Clendon, the Green Party Maori Affairs Spokesperson said today.

    “The Minister is trying to hide behind the Continental Shelf Act, claiming that ownership of petroleum and the EEZ is vested in the Crown, but his Ministry has testified otherwise and has acknowledged Te Aupouri’s assertion to the Waitangi Tribunal.”

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  4. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    The Dom-Post has given both Labour and Clayton Cosgrove a serve this morning. I’m still wondering though; was Grant Robertsons “he was only helping constituents” line an unfortunate slip of the tongue, or a deliberate attempt to discredit one of those who supports David Shearer?

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/dom-post-on-cosgrove.html

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  5. jaba (2,069 comments) says:

    John Key was in Franklin yesterday and a fund raising dinner held in Pukekohe .. the bloke was great .. we don’t know how lucky we are folks.
    ps .. this will be a turbluent year, hang onto your hats

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  6. Michael Mckee (1,091 comments) says:

    I sincerely hope John Key doesn’t flip flop on the WT and the water claims.
    Personally I don’t think he has the integrity and principles the leader of a country need, but that he is a compromiser.
    He calls it pragmatism.
    The only reason he got in was that Labour/Greens were so destructive and arrogant that finally the worm turned.
    People didn’t necessarily vote for the National party policies but to get rid of Helengrad.

    National quietly got rid of their intention to remove the racist Maori seats.
    I suspect most kiwis want them gone and one law for all.

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  7. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    KS: good piece there on Cosgrove – both yours and the editorial.

    No mention of the plug headed one on Stuff I see…perhaps the journos think poor little Clayton has suffered enough…

    Perhaps they should seek out and speak to his former EA’s…

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  8. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    Ah; thanks for that David. I’d forgotten that :D

    The paddocks around my place this morning were uniformly white, and it sure as eggs wasn’t from the heat!

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  9. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    Time to ignore the racists and their absurd claims to rivers and water. The greed of the Maori elites is limitless.
    Just ignore the tribal people.

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  10. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (one for/to counter the climate-change sneerers..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2012/ocean-acidification-is-climate-changes-equally-evil-twin/

    “..Oceans’ rising acid levels have emerged as one of the biggest threats to coral reefs -

    - acting as the “osteoporosis of the sea” -

    - and threatening everything from food security to tourism to livelihoods – the head of a U.S. scientific agency said Monday.

    The speed by which the oceans’ acid levels has risen caught scientists off-guard -

    - with the problem now considered to be climate change’s “equally evil twin,” National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration chief Jane Lubchenco told The Associated Press.

    “We’ve got sort of the perfect storm of stressors from multiple places really hammering reefs around the world,” said Lubchenco, who was in Australia to speak at the International Coral Reef Symposium in the northeast city of Cairns, near the Great Barrier Reef.

    “It’s a very serious situation.”

    Oceans absorb excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, increasing sea acidity.

    Scientists are worried about how that increase will affect sea life, particularly reefs -

    - as higher acid levels make it tough for coral skeletons to form…”

    (cont..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  11. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    Hansard sometimes makes interesting reading David ;-)

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  12. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..we don’t know how lucky we are folks…”

    now..that’s funny..!

    (..and tell that to anyone but the richest..eh..?

    ..those who increased their personal wealth by 20% in just the last yr..

    ..(how did you do..?..)

    ..and then ask yrslf in who’s interests is this govt operating..?

    ..it’s not mine..and i doubt it is yours..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  13. Carlos (684 comments) says:

    US record heatwave leaves dozens dead

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18758667

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  14. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Acid test for evil twin of climate change

    Marine biologist Donna Roberts says they expect to find evidence of pteropod shell thinning due to ocean acidification, a consequence of carbon absorption in the oceans.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/6226939/Acid-test-for-evil-twin-of-climate-change

    So they expect to find evidence……
    And I bet they will, somehow, someway…..

    Is this testing a theory or is the science settled and have they already made up their mind on what is happening AND what is causing it and just need to find evidence?

    1. Fact, there is shell thinning.
    2. Fact, shell thinning is due to ocean acidification.
    3. Fact, ocean acidification is a consequence of carbon absorption in the oceans
    4. Fact, increased carbon absorption in the ocean is due to rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere
    5. Fact, rising CO2 levels are anthropogenic.

    “Acidification is expected to increase significantly over the next century. “
    “We often call it the evil twin of climate change,” Roberts said.
    “If we can see changes there then we’ll be able to inform on marine protected areas and policies and perhaps add to the debate about reducing emissions, not just for climate change’s sake but for saving food chains.”

    I love the ‘New Age Science’.

    I must admit I don’t know much about pteropods but what I do know is that the formation of pteropod shells is similar to coral formation.

    So what is good for coral is probably good for pteropods…..

    According to several sources.
    Coral was extremely rare until the Ordovician period.
    Another period when there was a spike in coral growth was the Jurassic period.

    So what were the climate conditions during those periods?

    Ordovian period
    CO2 levels were above 2000 ppm (Lowest estimate) and probably around 4000 ppm (Today around 380 ppm)
    Early Ordovian average around 25 °C. late ordovian about the same as today.
    Jurassic Period
    CO2 levels were above 500 ppm (Lower estimate) and probably around 2000 ppm.
    Early Jurassic average around 25 °C. late Jurassic about 17 °C.

    Try finding out what the average global temperature is and Google “Average Global Temperature”.
    All I can find is a rough estimate that the Average Global Temperature is around 13 °C

    So in short, coral did very well in periods where temperatures and CO2 levels were considerably higher than today.

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  15. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    You can only laugh at his greed, only matched by his primitivism:

    Maori Council spokesman Maanu Paul told the Tribunal the spirit of the group’s claim had been lost in the words of the claim.
    “What is freshwater? It is a spirit.”
    It was a sacred thing, he said.
    “I am the water, the water is me.”

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  16. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    KS: do elaborate Sir…Surely my interjections about his lost suits didnt make Hansard?

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  17. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    Discussions of the Treaty never include the other, unmentioned HUGE benefits Maori have received as part of the partnership: ACC, Winz, Courts, the Dole, Sickness benefit, Rugby, Accom. Supplement, Rugby League, forestry, mining, jobs, tourism, Destiny church…

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  18. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Just a side question regarding ocean acidification (Whoa, that sounds scary).

    If the planet and the oceans are warming as suggested by our ‘consensus scientists’ how is it that the CO2 levels in the oceans are (allegedly) rising?

    It is a scientific fact that the solubility of carbon dioxide is a strong inverse function of seawater temperature. Solubility is less in warmer water…..

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  19. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @Manolo

    Hold on Manolo, we only mock Christians here and especially Roman Catholics.
    Islam (Being exotic and NOT Christian) and the New Age Religions (The Green’s ‘Mother Gaia’ and other pagan religions) are being held in high esteem……
    You are not an ‘Islamophobe’ or an evil ‘AGW denier’ are you?

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  20. david (2,483 comments) says:

    Other_Andy, just call it an inconvenient truth and ignore, surely it can be made to go away like the Medieval Warm Period.

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  21. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Global cooling, which became global warming, which became climate change, which became global climate disruption. 

    The next scare scheme will be the impending global biodiversity crisis. And after that who knows? 

    All this fear mongering  thanks to unelected UN dicto-crats who lust after more power.

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  22. Spam (586 comments) says:

    If the planet and the oceans are warming as suggested by our ‘consensus scientists’ how is it that the CO2 levels in the oceans are (allegedly) rising?

    It is a scientific fact that the solubility of carbon dioxide is a strong inverse function of seawater temperature. Solubility is less in warmer water…..

    That applies if the CO2 level has reached saturation in the water, but it hasn’t.

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  23. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    You are not an ‘Islamophobe’ or an evil ‘AGW denier’ are you?

    Proud to be both. :-)

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  24. Carlos (684 comments) says:

    Fascinating about how you can lie and deceive to convert people to Islam.

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  25. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..That applies if the CO2 level has reached saturation in the water, but it hasn’t…”

    well..y’see spam…there i now virtually unamimous agreement from marine scientists on the urgency of this..

    ..so that’s the top marine scientists on the planet..(at a conference just a day or so ago..) + National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration chief Jane Lubchenco..

    ..vs.

    ..unsourced/un-cited/no-evidence opinion from anonymous rightwing commenter..

    ..who to believe..?

    ..eh..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  26. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (apropos of nothing in particular..)

    ..yesterday i had about six months hair growth chopped off..

    ..and i look like a bloody banker..

    ..or kevin ‘bloody’ rudd..

    ..(and i am not sure which is the more disturbing..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  27. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (8.48am) – see my latest post. I won’t trouble DPF with another link, but let’s just say that Mr Cosgrove made a rather unfortunate speech in a General Debate some time ago which has suddenly become rather relevant…

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  28. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    @ Phil; please don’t tell us that you have a comb-over :D

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  29. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @spam

    “That applies if the CO2 level has reached saturation in the water, but it hasn’t.”

    You are making a fundamental mistake here. The saturation level of CO2 DEPENDS on the water temperature.

    This whole ocean acidification thing has nothing to do with money now, has it?
    The NGO Partnership for Observation of the Global Oceans (POGO), says the average level of pH at the ocean surface has dropped from 8.2 to 8.1 units, “rendering the oceans more acidic than they have been for 20 million years”.
    They want US$15.000.000.000 to study this drop of 0.1 unit in more than 200 years.
    That is the cost to create an adequate monitoring system which has been estimated at $10 billion to $15 billion in assets, with $5 billion in annual operating costs.
    Note that a pH level of 8.1 is NOT acidic.

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  30. RightNow (6,348 comments) says:

    big ups on the haircut phil, I take it you have a job interview?

    And if you’re going to say “vs. ..unsourced/un-cited/no-evidence opinion” perhaps you should include a citation.
    Not that I need it since I’ve already read about that conference, and noted that the convener, Professor Terry Hughes, has previously stated:
    “rather than experiencing wholesale destruction, many coral reefs will survive climate change by changing the mix of coral species as the ocean warms and becomes more acidic”

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  31. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..@ Phil; please don’t tell us that you have a comb-over :D..”

    hell no.!

    ..how can anyone with a comb-over have any credibility about anything..?

    ..thick/vibrant/lush-locks…me..

    ..(it’s the vegan diet..didn’tyaknow..?..

    ..it makes hair grow..

    ..where previously there was none..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  32. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    Jeez this is great, we hories will be getting a thick wedge of cash each time those pakeha want to use our sacred water for irrigation or power generation.
    Now do not worry your little pakeha heads, we well tanned would not be wanting the Geese that lay the golden eggs to go broke, so the charges will be no more than 200% of rates to farmers that local bodies charge.
    As for charges for using our sacred water to generate power, a retail hike of no more than 10% will cover it, hey, the buggers were going to raise the price anyway.

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  33. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    you seem to have the wrong aspect of the debate there..rightnow..

    ..you are quibbling about the effects/symptoms of one part of the acidifying-ocean..the coal reef..

    ..surely the point the scientists are making..

    ..is the whole ocean is fast acidifying..?

    ..(with parlous outcomes we cannot yet imagine..)

    ..isn’t that ‘the point’..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  34. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Flip-flopping Barry promises to extend tax cuts. Must be an election year.

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  35. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    KS: Keep up man! It’s “Climate Change” now…to accomodate that unfortunate discontinuity between what we are experiencing and the original label…

    The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was given its name 24 years ago. How can anyone expect to keep up with such sudden developments in terminology?

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  36. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    i’m calling it..

    grumpyoldhori is no more maori than irene van dyke…

    ..and is nothing but a black propaganda tool of some white rightwinger..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  37. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    I see two two major issues with the Waitangi Tribunal water rights claim.

    1. How can anyone claim ownership of something as globally fluid as water? In principle and as a practical exercise I don’t see how it can be claimed by any individual, group or country.

    2. The timing of this claim and some statements made about it can easily lead to the perception that this is an extorion attempt, to try and force Government into giving preferential treatment with the MOM share floats.

    Some parties may use it as a convenient anti asset sale weapon – if Labour do that they may end up regretting the monster it could create.

    Both the principle and the timing make me think that extorting water rights rort is wrong.

    I think we need to stand up and speak up quickly on this, and not just moan and wait until it’s too late.

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  38. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    grumpy, do not worry about water. Look after your mokopuna instead, who are killed far too often by your ilk.

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  39. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    philu So how much are you betting that I’m not one of the tanned ?

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  40. MT_Tinman (2,793 comments) says:

    I’m hip GoH.

    Now do you want to offset that against our backdated fee for use of the wheel and a written language or would you prefer to pay that bill separately but prior to the water settlement?

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  41. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    Well PG, simply acting as devils advocate here…I believe one of the major differences between land tenure in the UK as opposed to here is that in the UK aristocrats actually own the water in the rivers that flow through their estates..That and the absence of a “Queens Chain” allowing land access means that you need consent – often no doubt obtained for a fee – to fish in “their” rivers.

    I am no expert in this area, but perhaps someone who has read the writings of my old school mate Paul McHugh more thoroughly than I might wish to comment….Hopefully there is some obscure colonial statute which extinguished any aboriginal rights to water…but even if there is, as the Ngati Apa case shows re the foreshore and seabed, there is no way of knowing how the Supreme Court will treat it…

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  42. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    grumpy, and do not forget the large bill for weaning you off the taste of human flesh!

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  43. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    DG – do you think the current claim is based on law or politics?

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  44. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    either that goh….or you are the potato of all potatoes..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  45. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    Battle lines are drawn: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/jul/9/rick-perry-texas-wont-expand-medicaid/

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  46. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    @DG – not entirely correct, owning the land through which defined body of water flows confers a bunch of riperian rights such as the sole right to fish; the continued flow of the river, subject to the reasonable use of another riperian upstream; the right to take and use water. It falls short of full ownership and these same rights don’t apply to water moving through a non defined random way (like percolating through the ground).

    Disclaimer: based on the hazy memory of a sometime angler.

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  47. publicwatchdog (1,840 comments) says:

    Seen this Kiwibloggers?

    The considered opinion of Professor Prem Sikka on the ‘scandal-ridden UK banking system’?

    “I have an article on the website of The Conversation. It comments on the banking scandals and argues that the UK political institutions are weak and therefore durable reforms are a long way off.

    The article is titled “Durable change a long way off for scandal-ridden UK banking system” and is available at

    https://theconversation.edu.au/durable-change-a-long-way-off-for-scandal-ridden-uk-banking-system-8129

    You are most welcome to add comments to stimulate the debate.

    As always, there is more on the AABA website ( http://www.aabaglobal.org/ )

    Regards

    Prem Sikka
    Professor of Accounting
    Centre for Global Accountability
    Essex Business School
    University of Essex
    Colchester, Essex CO4 3SQ, UK
    Office Tel: +44(0)1206 873773
    Office Fax: +44 (01206) 873429
    AABA Website: http://www.aabaglobal.org/
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  48. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    I reckon trivialrev and Miss Dim should team up to solve this profound mystery:
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/record-shows-obama-at-columbia-only-1-year/

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  49. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    James: thanks…you were an English angler I take it? That sounds sensible…I know that riparian rights were also incorporated into our land law, but as I understand it, they are extinguished by statute every time such a title comes up for sub-division…

    Perhaps PROFESSOR Geddis could assist us…once he’s recovered from the embarrassment of forgetting the now 20 year old “new” Defamation Act altered the rule regarding malice as an element of the defences…

    Manolo: Oh no…please…not another debate on whether Obama is really entitled to be President…

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  50. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    Not interested in your links Penny, but I was delighted that Miles Davis gave you the short shrift on RadioLive yesterday when you tried again to smear John Banks. He wasn’t having any of your conspiracy theories, and all power to him :D

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  51. jaba (2,069 comments) says:

    Philip .. you really do need to get over the fact that the PM is loaded and that many people in business also have lots of dosh .. they tend to work really hard for it .. go figure eh?
    At the meeting he raised the water issue and said upfront it will be going to court. NZ can NOT afford to lose this one .. god help us all if we do.
    Also raised the problem with unemployment, including the those on long-term benefits who are unemployable, education (student protests/Maori failures that need addressing) as well as foreshore and spectrum issues raised by Maori.
    It seems that later this year there will be some eggs broken and hard decisions to be made .. these include the maori claims mentioned above and welfare reform. Get your CV ready Phillip.

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  52. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (todays’ best-of..so far..)

    (and i should issue a warning to rightwing pot-hysterics who are fanboys/girls of chris christie..i have bad news for you..eh..?

    ..yr hero has ‘turned’…)

    “…Beyond Misery in America…”

    “…The Voting Dilemma…”

    ”..GlaxoSmithKline Fined for Selling Dodgy Drugs to Children ..”

    “…Watch: What killed Arafat?…”

    “…Netanyahu to Obama: When We Say “Jump” You Answer – “How High”?…”

    “…TheManufactured Realities: The Truth About The Arab Spring – Occupy Movement – And Anonymous…”

    “…Big Trouble for U.S.? – Europe’s Banking Crisis Moves Closer to a Lehman Brothers Moment..”

    “…Not Just Foxconn: – Looking Into the Shadows of Apple’s Factory Empire..”

    “…Meet Romney’s Ultra-Rich Donors: – When Not Whining About Hedge-Funders Being Mistreated – They’re Calling for Bombing Iran..”

    “…How Anti-Muslim Sentiment is Used to Justify Imperial Adventures…”

    “…Six Reasons We Can’t Change The Future Without Progressive Religion…”

    “…The Great Capitalist Heist: How Paris Hilton’s Dogs Ended Up Better Off Than You…”

    “…A giant leap for menswear…”

    “…Drunkorexia: A stupid name – but a serious problem…”

    “..Abuses At Legion Of Christ-Run High School, Immaculate Conception Academy In Rhode Island..”

    “…Ocean Acidification Is Climate Change’s ‘Equally Evil Twin’…”

    “…Spike Lee On Politics & Mitt Romney: ‘There Will Be A Block Of People Saying – ‘I Cannot Vote For A Mormon”..”

    “…Jonathan Krohn – Ex-Conservative Boy Wonder, Jabs GOP ‘Bullies,’ Explains Shift To The Left…”

    “…Women ‘having it all’ is a middle-class myth…” – Commentators – Opinion – The Independent

    “…Obama Should Pull a Truman..”

    “…Robert Reich: The Wall Street Scandal of All Scandals…”

    “…Chris Christie Calls War On Drugs ‘A Failure’..”

    “…Paul Krugman’s Dark Prediction For Mitt Romney..”

    “…New Songs To Rev Up Your Workout…”

    “…The Lethal Presidency Of Barack Obama…”

    “…Mexican Drug Cartel Laundered Money Through Bank of America – FBI Alleges…”

    “…Where does the internet live? – Interactive…”

    “…How we made: Hugh Hudson and Nicholas Farrell on Chariots of Fire…”

    “…Obama takes fight to Romney as he pushes tax cuts for middle class…”

    “…Start it up: the 50th anniversary of the Rolling Stones’ first gig…”

    “…The Very Best – MTMTMK: album stream…”

    “…Suit lets medical students experience symptoms of old age…”

    “…Brian Rudman: Planners’ rulebook robs citizens of appeal rights…”

    “…Vodafone admits misleading advertising..”

    “…Water Clean-Up A Challenge For Farming…” | Stuff.co.nz

    “…The Government could buy back shares in the state-owned power companies to settle Treaty claims…”

    “…Schools Heavy Parents Over Donations…”

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  53. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    jaba: I certainly hope you are right…but if that is so, why did he not take the bull by the horns and push for abolition of the Maori seats in 2009 when he had 5 ACT MP’s to support him? Instead he made the politically very astute – rather than principled – decision to enter a support agreement with the Maoris as well, so ACT didn’t have influence beyond its numbers.

    Can you really see him doing anything significant to upset the Maori gravy train now, when he has a majority of one, and prospects for a third term are not good? And is it really proper to make an significant change with a majority of one in any case?

    Perhaps a small thrush’s egg might be broken, but I wouldn’t expect any omelets…

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  54. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    At the meeting he raised the water issue and said upfront it will be going to court. NZ can NOT afford to lose this one .. god help us all if we do.

    It’s a big issue and ideally should be dealt with unemotionally and with as little politics as possible, but that’s unlikely.

    It looks like Maori interests are trying to manouvre National, having Greens support automatically and as good as sewn up Labour’s support if all they can see is a weapon against asset sales. Labour risk cornering themselves on a much bigger water filled quagmire.

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  55. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Labour risk cornering themselves on a much bigger water filled quagmire…”

    it is this govt that is stepping into a ‘quagmire’..

    …and in the process guaranteeing their electoral-pariah status for at least a decade..

    ..are the backbenchers/marginal seat holders/young guns in national getting twitchy yet..?

    ,,if not..they should be..

    (and forget dunne..he is already toast..zero support..and virulent opposition/outrage at his betrayals/’won’t sell water -assets..!..promise..!’ -lies/broken election campaign promises rising by the hour..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  56. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..they tend to work really hard for it..”

    so do cleaners on minimum wage..

    yr point..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  57. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    So Maori (Maanu Paul) claim that ALL the water in New Zealand belongs to them.
    The land, the sea, the sea bed, the ocean, the fish, the birds, the radio waves…..
    For more than 30 years Maori have gotten away with it.
    Politicians from both sides of the house buying votes.

    1. The government has made them the Centre of the World
    2. The government has Ignored Positive Behaviour
    3. The government has Rewarded Negative Behaviour
    4. The government has has Failed to set Clear Limits
    5. The government has has failed to Enforce Rules Consistently
    6. The government has has failed to Hold them Accountable
    7. The government has has Given in for the Wrong Reasons
    8. The government has has Given in to Temper Tantrums

    Are we realy surprised?
    Can we realy blame them for trying?
    More important, who is to blame?

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  58. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    What a cheeky chick:
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/dnc-chief-urges-romney-release-tax-returns-wont-release-her-own_648292.html

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  59. Michael Mckee (1,091 comments) says:

    other andy.

    we are!

    because devoted for them even when they didn’t do what we wanted.

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  60. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    It’s a big issue and ideally should be dealt with unemotionally

    It shouldn’t be a big issue at all. It’s simple, lots of groups and individuals have rights to water use and access, possibly Maori have some covered by the treaty and no doubt the WT will find that they do. Anyone with both eyes open however, can see that the reason for the Treaty’s existence is, in simple terms, to give the “Crown” the role of balancing the rights of Maori and later immigrants.

    The government should therefore continue to balance the competing water rights of all interested parties and carry on and sell the power companies.

    Done. next.

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  61. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    “..they tend to work really hard for it..”

    so do cleaners on minimum wage..

    yr point..?”

    Well, starting with yours, bollocks. I cleaned my way through university – started work at 10PM, often finished at 2AM. Within 2 months I was a supervisor – becuase I turned up on time and worked.

    And my brother, who owns a cleaning company, cannot get workers – and he pays above minimum wage. Those who stick it for 4 weeks will stay for ages, and there are those who are literally gone by first smoko. So yet again, more generalist bullshit.

    Cleaners, from my experience and my brothers, are amongst some of the most lazy and feckless people Ive met, with some standout exceptions.

    But, at least they work, or approximate that.

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  62. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    and yr anti-cleaners rant signifies what exactly..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  63. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..But, at least they work, or approximate that…”

    you mean like this..?

    http://whoar.co.nz/

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  64. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    hmmm, you obviously cant read, so my point in responding might be lost, but here goes…

    “they tend to work really hard for it..”

    so do cleaners on minimum wage”

    No, no they dont. Simple enough?

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  65. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    Oh my, I just laughed…

    http://whoar.co.nz/ = work.

    You heard it here folks…

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  66. publicwatchdog (1,840 comments) says:

    ‘Keeping Stock’ Did you miss this post with the FACTS about the Police enquiry re: John Banks’ alleged electoral fraud?

    “5 July 2012

    Subject: John Banks enquiry
    …………….

    Good afternoon

    I wish to update you in regards to the investigation of your complaint under the Local Electoral Act 2001(LEA) in respect to the 2010 Super City Mayoralty Election. In that it is alleged that Mr (now Right Honourable) John BANKS submitted a false return detailing his Election Expenses and Election Donation return (pursuant section 109 LEA) and thereby committed an offence pursuant to section 134 of the LEA. File 120427/9334 refers.

    The investigation is complete and the file has been forwarded to the Police Legal Services for review.

    The review in respect to the file is likely to take two to three weeks subject to operational requirements/priorities.
    On completion of the review we will inform you of the outcome.

    Regards

    Detective Inspector Mark Benefield
    Field Crime Manager Auckland City District”

    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    Why wasn’t John Banks stood down as a Minister whilst he was being investigated by Police?

    Oh yes – of course – this MINORITY National Government – with only 59 out of 121 MPs needed his PIVOTAL vote for the passing of the Mixed Ownership Model Bill.

    That’s why SHONKY John Key protected DODGY John Banks?

    Not terribly complicated – albeit not particularly ETHICAL behaviour from John Key, Prime Minister of New Zealand ‘perceived’ to be ‘the least corrupt country in the world’ (according to Transparency International’s 2011 ‘Corruption Perception Index’ (based upon the subjective opinions of anonymous business people?).

    This same NZ Prime Minister John Key, whose actions as part of the ‘process’ – are – as I understand it – currently being investigated by the Office of the Auditor-General over the Sky City Convention deal?

    Why isn’t John Key ‘standing down’ whilst this OAG investigation is underway?

    Why was Shane Jones required to ‘stand down’?

    I guess that ‘leading from the front’ on ‘ethical behaviour’ is not the strong suit of an ex-Wall St bank$ter, former Foreign Exchange Advisor of the New York Federal Reserve – John Key – who helped to set up the DODGY derivatives market when he worked for Merrill Lynch?

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  67. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    Oh dear.

    Penny Bright – who has STOLEN water, encouraged others to STEAL water, STOLEN electricity (as part of the Occupy movement); Penny Bright, who while standing for public office proceeded to VANDALISE AND DEFACE the billboards of her opponents during the campaign – decrying others for a perceived lack of ‘ethical behaviour’.

    Just … unbelieveable.

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  68. Keeping Stock (9,791 comments) says:

    Penny – WTF does an inquiry over events totally unconnected to Banks’ role as a Minister or MP have anything to do with John Key? On the other hand, Jones’ inquiry is wholly about the circumstances surrounding a decision he made as a Minister. Surely even you can see that distinction; or are you so blinded by your ideological hatred of John Banks and John Key that you have lost any sense of objectivity?

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  69. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Emmerson’s cartoon in today’s Herald.

    Spot on!

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  70. pct (19 comments) says:

    My take on Maori claims on the water:

    They did own the water at the time of colonisation – but that water has since flowed out to sea, has condensed and fell in Uruguay.

    The water presently in the rivers is from weather patterns traveling east from Australia, therefore Australia owns the water in the rivers.

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  71. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    How did that last anti-Banks protest go Penny? Was there ANYBODY there other than you?

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  72. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    @ (and in addition to)KS 11.32- not forgetting that John Key was sensible enough not to paint himself into a corner by calling for the stand-down of an opposition MP.

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  73. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    did anyone else see the simpsons’ episode on sun-nite..(a new one..i think..)

    ..where lisa faced universal scorn when she was sprung for posting comments online using a fake name..

    ..comments praising ‘lisa’..?

    ..people don’t like to be ‘fooled’ like that..eh..?

    ..the ‘family guy’ that followed was also very good..

    ..the dog was seduced by the writings of/his interactions with..rush limbaugh…

    ..and switched from a liberal to a rightwinger/limbaugh fanboy…(heh..!..)

    ..shouting/nodding along with the standard far-rightwing talking-points…

    ..very funny it was/is…(and worth finding online..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  74. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    David Garrett Key not making ACT the true rulers of NZ in 2009, did you ACT types really believe that there was any chance, at all, of old man Douglas becoming finance minister ?
    Key knew that giving ACT their head would result in the electorate going back to Labour/Greens in 2011.

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  75. Elaycee (4,087 comments) says:

    So the NZ Hoorald would have us think that their standard of ‘journalism’ is about to improve….

    Clearly this new policy hasn’t been implemented as yet…. as a headline on their website reads: “Pilot’s decicion’s ‘all well made’”

    You can polish a turd as much as you like, but it will always be a turd.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/

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  76. Viking2 (10,738 comments) says:

    Talking of climate change. It has. According to records this is the coldest in 20 years.

    Jetboat grounded as Shotover freezes
    SUE FEA IN QUEENSTOWN
    Last updated 09:52 10/07/2012

    BIG FREEZE: Skippers Canyon Jet managing director Ben Hohneck assesses ice on the banks of the Shotover River.

    The worst big freeze in almost 20 years has left parts of the Shotover River frozen solid, metres across, keeping jetboat operators off the water for almost record periods.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7249479/Jetboat-grounded-as-Shotover-freezes

    hahahaha :lol:

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  77. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    This guy would make a distinguished member of the NZ Labour Party:
    http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8496830/png-speaker-arrested-on-bribery-charges

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  78. RRM (8,996 comments) says:

    “Halfway there” post deserves a comment. That is some substantial weight loss, awesome work dude.

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  79. Viking2 (10,738 comments) says:

    KS & DG.
    I could be wrong as the memory ain’t what it used to be but I suspect that if you troll back thru papers past,

    http://www.google.co.nz/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=12&gs_id=b8&xhr=t&q=papers+past+nz&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=papers+past+&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=aa371a1c4c8326fa&biw=1024&bih=553

    that the same Manu Paul was a gang member of low intelligence.

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  80. publicwatchdog (1,840 comments) says:

    Here you go Kiwibloggers! Sink your gums into THIS one! :)

    THE NEXT STAGE OF THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST ASSET SALES!

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151093935876477&set=vxywtia.1341881327.1341881328.207470516476&type=1&theater&notif_t=photo_tag

    PROTESTS AGAINST ASSET SALES ARE HAPPENING THIS SATURDAY 14 JULY 2012 IN:

    Auckland
    Wellington
    Christchurch
    Dunedin
    Hamilton
    Tauranga
    Napier
    New Plymouth
    Rawene
    Palmerston North

    IT’S PEOPLE POWER TIME!!

    BACK UP YOUR PROTEST WITH ACTION WHICH CANNOT BE IGNORED!

    1) DON’T INVEST IN MIGHTY RIVER POWER!

    2) SWITCH OFF (FROM) MERCURY ENERGY! (100% owned by Mighty River Power)
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    If YOU aren’t a greedy and selfish Kiwi, and believe in ETHICAL, SOCIALLY and FISCALLY responsible investment – then YOU will pledge NOT to invest in Mighty River Power, and encourage your friends, family and workmates to do the same.

    If YOU are a decent Kiwi, with a social conscience, YOU will consider those ‘mums and dads’ who are struggling to pay power bills now – who can’t afford now to have the heater on in winter – and will face even higher power bills if our essential electricity assets are sold off to the private sector.

    YOU might have a spare $1000 to invest in the proposed Mighty River Power share float – but there are thousands of ‘mums and dads’, grandparents, and single folk who have not.

    Do YOU care about fellow New Zealanders who are really struggling right now – or don’t you ‘give a stuff’?

    If YOU don’t ‘give a stuff’ – what sort of New Zealander are YOU?

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4123508375979&set=a.3918182922971.2166233.1531441859&type=1&theater

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4123431654061&set=p.4123431654061&type=1&theater

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4123424253876&set=p.4123424253876&type=1&theater

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4123408853491&set=p.4123408853491&type=1&theater

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4123420773789&set=p.4123420773789&type=1&theater

    IF YOU ARE A MERCURY ENERGY CUSTOMER AND YOU WANT TO SWITCH POWER COMPANIES TO HELP MAKE MIGHTY RIVER POWER A LESS ATTRACTIVE INVESTMENT – YOU CAN CHECK OUT HERE – WHERE BEST TO GO!

    NB: DON’T SHIFT TO ‘CONTACT’ – THEY’RE ALREADY PRIVATISED.

    http://www.powerswitch.org.nz/powerswitch

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption (and anti-privatisation) campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/

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  81. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    Miss Dim, nobody will attend. Just give up your useless cause. Find a job instead.

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  82. Paulus (2,299 comments) says:

    As I understand it the Maori Appellants through the Maori Council at the Waitangi Council are open to accepting statutory bribery by way of free shares, and they will give up any claim (this time).
    As they say “Follow the Money” – I thought it was about water, but no, just money as usual, for the Maori elite.

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  83. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Well, what do you know…

    Study finds coral reef growth thrives in warmer waters

    As most people are well aware, global warming isn’t just about the atmosphere, it’s about rising ocean temperatures as well. And like increases in the atmosphere, scientists aren’t really clear on what impact such temperature increases will have on the oceans.
    One such impact most researchers thought was well understood was the bleaching of coral reefs. As ocean temperatures rise and become more acidic, coral reefs tend to slough off the algae that grows on them, causing them to slowly die.
    Now however, new research by a team from the Australian Institute of Marine Science, has found that coral reefs off the western shores of the Australian continent are not only not suffering from the increased temperature, but are apparently thriving, as the study they’ve published in Science describes, they have actually been growing faster in the past hundred years than prior to that time.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/study-finds-coral-reef-growth-thrives-in-warmer-waters/story-e6frg8y6-1226261278615

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  84. graham (2,211 comments) says:

    $1000 for Mighty River share parcel? Is that all? Heck, I’m going to start scraping together everything I can!!!

    Thanks Penny, for this valuable public service of reminding us to make sure we’ve prepared to buy up those shares as soon as they float. Good on you for highlighting it!

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  85. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Anybody here who knows what power companies rely the least on subsidised power generation?
    I don’t want to invest in power companies that make use of taxpayers’ money to make a profit.
    I suppose that rules out any companies that have ‘invested’ money in useless, expensive and polluting windmills.

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  86. trout (865 comments) says:

    Manu Paul and his mates on the Maori Council are making out that the Government is transferring water rights to private owners as if this is unique. Where have they been for the last 20 years – water rights are granted everyday to various users in parts of NZ. They are granted in the public interest, largely for the benefit of improved productivity, and are short term with reviews. Mighty River Power has water rights for 30 years. Although it is also true that MRP actually only uses the energy, not the water itself (as separate from irrigation schemes etc.).
    It is disingenuous for the Maori Council to claim that this WT claim is not about ownership but the transfer of rights. This is the first shot for a Council desperate to regain some political clout after being ignored by Government (who prefer to deal with the Iwi Leaders forum). Paul, Jury, and Anette Sykes are long time stirrers with zilch credibility. But they love the TPK funding they get for causes like this..
    Is the Maori Council going to next claim rights to the rainfall that fills the reservoir lakes in Auckland to supply the City?

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  87. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    O_A
    Can you explain please how thw wind farms are subsidised?

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  88. Yvette (2,591 comments) says:

    Penny, when Maori engineer the inevitable shares handout from their present action, I trust you will praise them, along with those like myself who will buy as many shares as we can to prevent control of our essential power generating assets falling into foreign hands.
    How many shares will you patriotically buy to keep ownership within New Zealand?

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  89. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (from yr link there..oa…)

    “..The key question is how warm the water can get before the positive effects are reversed.

    Lab studies have typically measured the effect of short-term, rapid changes in temperature and water chemistry; -

    - these mimic, for example, coral-bleaching events that are known to be devastating.

    Much harder to measure are the long-term effects of gradual warming – such as is caused by climate change…”

    yr point..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  90. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    i am also puzzled there..oa…that you post a link purportedly denying climate change..

    ..that accepts as a fact..climate change..

    ..is that what people call an own-goal..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  91. publicwatchdog (1,840 comments) says:

    Hi David Garrett

    The last ‘anti-Banks’ protest was extremely successful.

    Thanks for asking :)

    Did you miss this?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/7124255/Protesters-stage-sit-in-at-Banks-office

    (There were actually six of us).

    I was arrested for ‘wilful trespass’ and have the status hearing tomorrow (Wednesday 11 July 2012) at the Auckland District Court (Albert St) at 11.45am.

    We’ll be using this occasion to help keep the focus on DODGY John Banks, as we await the decision of the Police Legal Services on their review of the Police investigation of John Banks alleged electoral fraud.

    So – there will be a protest outside the above-mentioned Auckland District Court Wednesday 11 July from 10am – 1pm.

    Some of the banners that will be on display outside the Auckland District Court are available for your perusal on http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com – ‘Give a grrl a banner’.

    At this upcoming status hearing – I will be pleading NOT GUILTY and look forward to serving a witness subpoena on John Banks.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

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  92. Yvette (2,591 comments) says:

    Will the current water rights issue with the Waikato flow through to Benmore and Ngai Tahu?

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  93. wikiriwhis business (3,302 comments) says:

    BBC now wants to interview Max Keiser on Barclay’s/Libor and Bob Diamond because Keiser has been right all along

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  94. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    Why is NZ bending over? http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8496825/dotcoms-extradition-hearing-delayed

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  95. Sofia (785 comments) says:

    Penny Bright – At this upcoming status hearing – I will be pleading NOT GUILTY and look forward to serving a witness subpoena on John Banks.
    _____________________

    It will very interesting to see how that works for you.
    You hold a protest.
    Get yourself arrested.
    Then can involve, by a witness subpoena, the person you were protesting against.
    Seems a slightly corrupt use of the justice system.

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  96. Elaycee (4,087 comments) says:

    “(There were actually six of us).”

    Bwahahahaaaaaaaaaa

    Dopey. Dozey. Grumpy. Sneezy. Bashful. And Penny.

    From a population of 1.25 Million. Says it all, really.

    Elaycee,
    Attendee: Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club Reunion, Manchester, UK. 1980.
    Attendee: Mangamaire School BBQ – 1972.
    Participant: Snorkel Training, Matamata Hot Springs. 1971.

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  97. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (from that stuff-link..)

    “..What’s the difference between Taito Phillip Field getting jailed for six years for bribery and corruption for giving immigration assistance to a Thai national in return for work on his property -

    - and John Banks giving immigration assistance to a German national and he gets a $50,000 donation?..”

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  98. freemark (324 comments) says:

    Phil
    If you can’t see the difference I say you fail the intelligence criteria for intelligent debate.
    Run along now to The Standard, Red Alert or Frog will you, you will find many at your level.
    There’s a good chap.

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  99. Viking2 (10,738 comments) says:

    Foreshore and seabed referendum unlikely

    Tuesday, 10, Jul, 2012 2:35PM

    The Government’s unsurprised efforts to get a referendum on foreshore and seabed laws are set to fail.

    Backers of the referendum have just four days left to collect over 300,000 signatures to force a citizens initiated referendum on the Marine and Coastal Areas Act.

    But they acknowledge they’re around 50,000 signatures short of the target

    Treaty Negotiations Minister Chris Finlayson says it proves opponents of the law change didn’t have the support they claimed.

    “These people did not have widespread public support. They were vituperative and unpleasant and they’ve failed in their aim to overturn the legislation.”

    There can’t be anyone more nasty than an unelected list MP telling the taxpaying voters that Maori own NZ and you can get stuffed.

    Not a lot of difference between this horrible man and the Labour Party copy, Chris what’s his name.

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  100. Viking2 (10,738 comments) says:

    anolo (6,870) Says:
    July 10th, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Why is NZ bending over? http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8496825/dotcoms-extradition-hearing-delayed

    For the same reason as my post about Findlayson. We have unprincipled power brokers and unelected low quality Govt.

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  101. superflynz (9 comments) says:

    Was going to respond to Philu but freemark beat me to it…

    May I suggest a quick IQ test when logging into Kiwiblog? Spot the difference or something similar?

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  102. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..If you can’t see the difference I say you fail the intelligence criteria for intelligent debate…”

    ok freemark..let’s just assume i am a dummy…

    ..so educate me…explain to me ..and the rest of the dummies who can’t slide a ciggy-paper between the two…

    ..what the actual ‘difference’…is..

    ..phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  103. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..May I suggest a quick IQ test when logging into Kiwiblog? ..”

    wouldn’t testing if knuckles drag on the ground while walking be a more effective filter..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  104. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @mikenmild

    “Can you explain please how thw wind farms are subsidised?”

    Apart from being inefficient and environmentally unfriendly, the generation of wind energy is one of the most costly forms of energy production when compared to other forms of production in a commercial setting in New Zealand.
    However, an energy company generating energy using a variety of production methods will sell its electricity at a uniform price, in effect subsidising inefficient and costly production with efficient and cheap production.
    Being a state owned enterprise that doesn’t really matter, being a commercial one is does.

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  105. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    So only SOEs have developed wind farms here and can be expected to decommission them once privatised? It occurs to me that this would be a breach of the legal requirment for SOEs to operate as efficiently as comparable privately owned businesses.

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  106. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. Democracy is a soft variant of communism, and rarely in the history of ideas has it been taken for anything else.”

    “As for the moral status of majority rule, it must be pointed out that it allows for A and B to band together to rip off C, C and A in turn joining to rip off B, and then B and C conspiring against A, and so on.”

    “Egalitarianism, in every form and shape, is incompatible with the idea of private property. Private property implies exclusivity, inequality, and difference. And cultural relativism is incompatible with the fundamental—-indeed foundational-fact of fact of families and intergenerational kinship relations. Families and kinship relations imply cultural absolutism.”

    Democracy – The God That Failed: The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy, and Natural Orde.

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  107. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    As Churchill remarked, ‘It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.’

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  108. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Elaycee – I cant believe that a gathering of 6 nutters commanded so much MSM space when the all important Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club Reunion, Manchester, UK. 1980. has only just got a mention!

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  109. leftyliberal (616 comments) says:

    Other_Andy: The article you quoted above said that a pH of 8.1 is more acidic than a pH of 8.2. Notice the use of the word “more”. As the pH scale is logarithmic, it means there’s about 25% more H+ ions than there were before.

    You are correct the CO2 absorption by the ocean is dependent on temperature, so there is a safety valve (negative feedback) here in that as the ocean temperatures rise, less CO2 will be absorbed per annum. pH has a similar affect – as the ocean gets more acidic, it can absorb less CO2. Indeed, this is used in some climate models to make things worse CO2-wise in the atmosphere, as the ocean can no longer absorb the excess at the same rate – I suspect this isn’t where you wanted your argument to go, however ;)

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  110. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    Knowing this liar, his demise may be near:
    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/venezuelas-chavez-says-totally-free-cancer-215250526.html

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  111. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @mm

    “So only SOEs have developed wind farms here and can be expected to decommission them once privatised?”

    No, the investment needs to be recovered. However, while wind turbines are designed to work for about 20 years, it doesn’t mean that they will.

    “It occurs to me that this would be a breach of the legal requirment for SOEs to operate as efficiently as comparable privately owned businesses.”

    SOE’s might be required to operate as efficiently as comparable privately owned businesses but I am sure there are other(political) parameters as well. Those who appoint the Board members of a company (In this case the government) want to have some say in how that company is run. Or do you think that when Prime Minister Helen Clark announced in 2007 that New Zealand was aiming to be the first carbon neutral country by 2020 energy companies in New Zealand weren’t in any way ‘encouraged’ to develop wind energy (amongst other alternative forms of energy)?

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  112. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    From another blog:

    .hi..as i have no income from whoar..(as yet..)..

    ..and so am unable to promote/advertise the site..

    ..i would appreciate it if you appreciate the daily offerings here..

    ..that you spread the word about whoar through your various networks…

    ..’cos an increase in patronage will bring me to that magic spot…

    ..where income will be able to be used to make whoar even bigger and better…

    ..we are here for the long haul..eh..?

    ..thank you very much..

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  113. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @leftyliberal

    “The article you quoted above said that a pH of 8.1 is more acidic than a pH of 8.2. ”

    The main point is of course that neither 8.1 or 8.2 is acidic.
    A millionaire is poorer than a billionaire but that doesn’t mean he is poor.

    “Indeed, this is used in some climate models to make things worse CO2-wise in the atmosphere, as the ocean can no longer absorb the excess at the same rate – I suspect this isn’t where you wanted your argument to go, however”

    That is only important if you believe that you can do anything significant about the CO2 levels in the Earth’s athmosphere.

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  114. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Acidification = decrease in pH. It doesn’t matter if the starting solution is acidic, neutral, or alkaline.

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  115. Viking2 (10,738 comments) says:

    If ever there was a reason to shut down the odious court, so called, the Waitangi Tribunal its adherants have shown it today. As I understand it the Tribuanl can only make reccomendations which the Govt. of the day can either take up or dismiss.s

    well you wouldn’t think so from the comments reported today.

    All the nasties have turned up in full voice.
    This Govt. should do what it should have done after the last election. Pulled the pin on Maori seats and unfunded that odious institution that is hell bent on using lies and false information to hand or country to a bunch of odiuos racists.

    Chief Judge Wilson Isaac called a 20-minute break after iwi taking part in an urgent water claim hearing warned that the Prime Minister’s comments risked “a race war”.

    Key’s comments have also sparked a furious reaction from Government allies the Maori Party – who drew parallels with the 2004 foreshore and seabed row that split Maoridom and sparked a 40,000-strong march on Parliament.

    In a statement, Maori party co-leaders Tariana Turia and Pita Sharples warned that they viewed his dismissal of the Waitangi Tribunal “very seriously” after Key said the Government could choose to “ignore what findings they might have”.

    “To make such comments is an insult to all of us. We believe that the Government is required in good faith to consider the recommendations of the tribunal.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7251078/Tempers-raised-over-water-issue

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  116. Elaycee (4,087 comments) says:

    @Wayne91 (4:52 pm):

    Agree – it is a tragedy. Life is harsh… :(

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  117. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @chiz

    Granted.
    Hoever, would there be a reason why they never tell people what it ACTUALLY means?
    Ocean acidification sounds scary untill you tell them that the pH has changed 0.1 in 200 years and that it hasn’t turned acidic by a long shot.
    The thing is of course that because of the deliberate omission of these facts, the average person in the street thinks the oceans are doomed.

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  118. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    But what other term would you use? Hypoalkilinisation, say? Who would understand that?

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  119. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Green arithmetic from the UK:

    Green Jobs Count: Fewer Than Before, Sillier Than Ever

    Back in March, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) released a study showing our economy had 3.1 million green jobs. Recently, it issued another green jobs study with a headlining number of 854,700 green jobs.

    Don’t worry—the economy did not lose 2 million green jobs in three months. There were not 3.1 million green jobs to begin with. And there are not 854,700 green jobs now.

    We have already analyzed the uselessness of the first study (here and here). Signs that the first study’s definition of “green” was questionable include:

    – There were 33 times as many green jobs in the septic tank and portable toilet servicing industry as in the solar utility industry;

    – More than 50 percent of all jobs in steel mills were green;

    – There were more green jobs in school bus and employee transportation (160,896), trash collection (116,293), and used merchandise stores (106,865) than in either engineering services (100,847) or architectural services (71,891); and

    – The acting commissioner of the BLS admitted that oil-industry lobbying could be considered a green job.

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  120. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @chiz

    “But what other term would you use? Hypoalkilinisation, say? Who would understand that?”

    Why mention it at all? It is another fabricated crisis….

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  121. wiseowl (577 comments) says:

    There is a difference between water rights and water ownership.
    Its time this treaty stuff was challenged head on.
    Listening to JT and Willy today was a challenge and when they say without hesitation they own water ,it was one of their ‘possessions’ , it is high time to clarify it.
    I’m sure most Kiwis don’t see it that way.

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  122. slijmbal (1,134 comments) says:

    On the bright side the current reigning in of Kiwirail costs means Len’s choo choo set is even less likely.

    Has anyone noticed the irony of Kiwirail’s head office being nowhere near rail? Convenient for the motorway though.

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  123. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    Listening to Checkpoint right now on this water issue and one of the iwi leaders quite seriously suggested to the tribunal today that Maori should own 100% of all SOE’s to “protect” them from being sold overseas.

    Listening to another one who is saying, to effect, look, it’s a fait accompli, of course we own it, no question, so he’s now threatening the buyers over the risks if there isn’t a water settlement.

    I mean this is mental.

    It’s time for Key to get on Walrus and Campbell and laugh in their faces. Time for him to sneer and mock and then get a copy of Ti Tiriti and rip it up right there on camera and get a shotgun just like Iti did and blast it to smithereens. Too bad if Walrus and/or Campbell get in the way. Awww. That would be a weal twagedy.

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  124. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    interesting how gareth morgan is agreeing with hone on this issue…

    key..putting the ‘mire’ in ‘quagmire’…

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  125. wiseowl (577 comments) says:

    ‘I mean this is mental’
    Sure is Reid.
    what has to happen in this country to wake up the populace and get a major response.?
    Kiwis are being walked all over and the response is…………nothing.

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  126. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    are.. (self-describing) christians..when they advocate the shotgun-murders of television current affairs hosts…

    ..are they able to just put to one side..the commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’….?

    ..how does all that that work..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  127. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    There wasn’t room on Moses’ slabs to fit the words “collateral damage”

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  128. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    ..are there listed exemptions to that commandment..?

    as in:..television current affairs hosts you don’t like….muslims….gays…

    ..y’see.!…i include animals in that commandment…

    ..and it has no exemptions…human or beast..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  129. Sofia (785 comments) says:

    The reaction today to Key’s realistic reminder that the Waitangi Tribunal’s findings are not mandatory, shows why the Tribunal’s findings should not be mandatory.

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  130. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    maori stopped/saved assets from being sold in the 80′s…

    ..let’s hope they can do it/are successful again..

    ..and progressive pakeha should wake up to the fact that their true allies in opposition to this travesty…are maori..

    ..and should embrace that partnership…there and elsewhere..

    ..and realise that maori are fighting for our common good…

    ..fighting to stop control over our basics of life…

    ..of the lifeblood of the land..

    ..being sold into elites/foreign control….

    ..which if it happens..we will rue forever and a day..

    ..phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  131. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    Kiwis are being walked all over and the response is…………nothing.

    They’ll react if they realise they may have to pay royalties on any water they use. But by the time the realise it may be too late.

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  132. big bruv (12,380 comments) says:

    “They’ll react if they realise they may have to pay royalties on any water they use. But by the time the realise it may be too late.”

    But don’t worry, just when we think all is lost Mr Sensible (aka the political slut from Karori) will come along and tell us all in condescending tones that we have nothing to worry about.

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  133. leftyliberal (616 comments) says:

    Oh well Other_Andy, you only have to wait another few years – the Tararua wind farm was installed in 1999, so not long now to exceed a 20 year life :)

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  134. wiseowl (577 comments) says:

    Time for Mr Sensible to make a name for himself?

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  135. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Phool at 7.01.

    Stop taking the piss. The other day you said you supported the Mixed Ownership, or were you taking this piss then?
    ‘The more I hear about it the more I like it’ or words similar.
    Taking the piss?

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  136. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    lefty
    I’m pretty sure O_A has made these assertions about wind power before. Now it turns out it’s just a conspiracy, with the previous government ordering its tame SOEs to build these.

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  137. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    big bruv, that’s a pathetic way to address something like this, but then, you don’t seem to understand sensible.

    This may be a bloody difficult thing to sort out, resorting to hissy shits won’t achieve much, will it. Especially directed at someone who’s in a position to actually make a difference. A way to guarantee failure is to bicker amongst yourselves.

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  138. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    I think we can all rely on Mr Sensible to act in the best interests of remaining a Cabinet Minister as long as he can – because only that way can he keep being so helpful to his fellow citizens.

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  139. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @mikenmild

    “I’m pretty sure O_A has made these assertions about wind power before.”

    Which ones milky?

    “Now it turns out it’s just a conspiracy, with the previous government ordering its tame SOEs to build these.”

    Conspiracy? Where did I say that?
    Anything sensible to say or are you just being your obnoxious self and make $h1t up as usual?

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  140. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    Nah Franks was quite correct, this is a legal mugging.

    If I were Key I’d be right spreading that phrase all over the newspapers. It would become the equivalent of the calculated ‘haters and wreckers’ phrase some other PM used.

    However, guess what.

    Where’s his Maori Party support for the asset sales legislation if he does that? I can’t recall the numbers but I think he needs them doesn’t he.

    So let’s be clear. This is in fact, a legal mugging. Yes, it is. Anyone who questions that, has to answer why the issue has never been raised in the decades before, cause it hasn’t. Despite full and final being appended to settlement after settlement, this is the first time, and what a convenient time, this issue has been raised. Secondly, if the Maori Council gets free shares, is it true they really go away? And if so what does that say about this being about principle?

    No. A conservative govt is being rorted, and it looks like they’re going to roll over. And this is a conservative govt. Imagine what Liarbore would do. And who pays? That’s right. And why? No reason, really. A bunch of cunning natives got uppity and we decided that was vewy insensitive of us, to be such a meanie we didn’t even give them any fwee shares. I mean, they’re the natives, they’re special. Us, the people who built the fucking country and everything you see around you, we don’t matter at all, we’re not pwecious, we’re just “occupiers.”

    This country is fucked, boys and girls: F-U-C-K-E-D.

    For the first time ever, I don’t see an upside to living here. I’ve had a lot of straws on my back but I’ll tell ya depending what happens over this, could be the last one, for me. Gutsful, I have had.

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  141. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    Reid, no Maori Party support needed for the MOM Bill, it’s been passed without him. I suspect they have sat out the bill in the house, waiting for this opportunity.

    And I think they are trying to skewer Labour – sucked in to stopping asset sales at any cost, but Labour could easily be leading the government that has to try and keep sorting this out. They seem to be quiet on it, probably wondering what the hell they can do to extracate themselves.

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  142. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    And the Greens will be barely suppressing their glee.

    If ever we needed a bit of strong support in the centre it’s now, but hey, it’s easier to just jump on the hissy bandwagon, and then moan about not having enough allies to deal with it.

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  143. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    leftyliberal

    “Oh well Other_Andy, you only have to wait another few years – the Tararua wind farm was installed in 1999, so not long now to exceed a 20 year life ”

    Stage 1 was installed in 1999, the others in 2004 and 2007.

    What is more interesting was what else I found on the website. It appears that windpower IS getting a government subsidy, something I did not know. Of course it isn’t called a subsidy…..
    They get money from the ETS scam.

    TrustPower was granted tradeable greenhouse gas emissions units (carbon credits) for Stage 2 and 3 as part of the Ministry for the Environment’s Projects to Reduce Emissions Scheme (PRE) in 2003/2004.

    So the actual production price is scewered to start off with.

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  144. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    Pete thanks for that. However, why would Liarbore care, they don’t want asset sales anyway.

    Who is they in: “I think they are trying to skewer Labour”

    I assume you mean Maori?

    No. I think this is a mere venal unprincipled grab without long term calculation. I think they’re opportunistic rather than strategic. Water ownership is not something the country will accept Maori having. Why is it a taonga for Maori and not the same taonga for us, the country would say.

    It’s like the airwaves. So what Maori are angling for is a slice of the action, at our expense.

    Key will give it to them, because he’s a gutless dishcloth of a leader who looks for the compromise all the time regardless of the rights and wrongs. I have no time for that, since this is the wrong thing, same as he compromised to the country on what the asset sales cash would be used for. But Key will use the politically correct psychobabble infested in this country’s political decision-making processes to do the wrong thing – again. I really hope I’m wrong Pete.

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  145. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    Would anyone here be prepared to sacrifice selling MOM shares in order to hold on to universal water rights? It could come to that.

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  146. wiseowl (577 comments) says:

    This is a serious issue PG.I think we are tipping point over this one and if key and co don’t tough it out we are doomed.It’s that bad.
    Time to save the country over and above the crave for power.

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  147. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Phool at 7.01.

    Stop taking the piss. The other day you said you supported the Mixed Ownership, or were you taking this piss then?
    ‘The more I hear about it the more I like it’ or words similar.
    Taking the piss?..”

    no..i was talking about my new/improved mixed ownership model..

    ..which i’m calling nationalising-lite….

    ..where the nationalising of whatever isn’t a 100% takeover…the state just takes that 51% stake..

    ..leaving the private operators to retain 49%/and to provide the expertise to operate whatever has been nationalised…

    ..hands-off nationalising..as it were..

    ..what i described as ‘all the benefits of nationalising (ie profits/control/standards for the common-good)..and with none of the heartache…

    ..and that ad for zeal that notes how many millions have already done into the super-fund..just confirms the benefits/power of that idea..

    ..and the govt could be totally hands-off..(i am not envisaging massive new beaurocracies to run these nationalised industries/w.h.y..

    ..retaining the current management/infrastructure obviates any need for such complications..

    ..a lean/mean overseeing/distributing..(to super-fund etc) beast should do the trick..(and as just one example..wd fix all of our superannuation-issues..)

    ..we have to start making new zealand work for the common good…(not just for the elites/foreign shareholders/owners.)

    ..and this new/improved mixed ownership model is a good start in that direction..

    ..and is an idea whose time has come..

    ..(hope that clarifies that m.o.m-misunderstanding for you..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  148. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    wiseowl – yes, that’s what I’m thinking too. To tough out water rights it may mean at least postponing the share floats – possibly for years. I think we have to be prepared for that.

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  149. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    “..and progressive pakeha should wake up to the fact that their true allies in opposition to this travesty…are maori..”

    and then from your 7. 55 post:
    “no..i was talking about my new/improved mixed ownership model..

    ..which i’m calling nationalising-lite….

    ..where the nationalising of whatever isn’t a 100% takeover…the state just takes that 51% stake..

    ..leaving the private operators to retain 49%/and to provide the expertise to operate whatever has been nationalised…”

    Which puts your idea in conflict with Maori.
    Sort that one out Phool.
    After that have a drink of water, make sure you pay for your water

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  150. Sofia (785 comments) says:

    Lawyer Kathy Ertel, who represents Ngati Ruapani, said they were working hard to avoid the issue becoming a race war … “This is a sub judice issue and the Prime Minister’s out there saying ‘doesn’t matter what the Tribunal says we’re going to ignore it’.”
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7251078/Tempers-raised-over-water-issue

    Who knows what Key intends, but Key?
    However, in saying the Government can ignore the Tribunal, is he not telling the Tribunal to come up with something that is not reasonable to ignore?

    And : a sub judice issue – ?

    Personally I am dismayed New Zealand continues the take such an ancient and fucking badly-worded real estate agreement as the Founding Document of the Nation and that They will attempt to write the bloody thing into any new Constitution – good luck with that …

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  151. wiseowl (577 comments) says:

    I think it shows how for years,possibly since Palmer and the Principles debacle, we have been in a state of flux with no-one willing to sort it out.
    It’s d-day.

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  152. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    Oh dear, imagine having to postpone these sales for years. The government might actually be better off fiscally as a result – the horror!

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  153. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “….anyone who questions that, has to answer why the issue has never been raised in the decades before, cause it hasn’t…”

    because maori were relaxed about the waterways being used for the common good…being owned by the state..

    ..foreign-shareholders/local-elites owning/exploiting those assets..

    ..is not in the common good…

    ..i would submit that is the glaring difference..

    .(.and of course..once sold..they are gone forever…)

    ..and really..that is utter madness…to do that..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  154. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    ‘New Zealand continues the take such an ancient and fucking badly-worded real estate agreement as the Founding Document of the Nation’
    Unfortunately, the Treaty with all its flaws is our founding document, so you might just have to live with that. On the plus side, it is not the sum total of our constitution which, like all constitutions, continues to evolve to suit changing circumstances.

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  155. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    “local-elites owning/exploiting those assets..”

    … you mean Ngai Tahu? ….
    …the most elite in the land …

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  156. wiseowl (577 comments) says:

    M&m.It’s not the fact there is a document,there is no agreed understanding of what it means.
    Clearly today I felt nutters JT and Silly Willy were of the opinion that since 1840 Mali own everything and that is their starting point.
    It’s not tyhe way I see it.

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  157. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Which puts your idea in conflict with Maori…”

    how so..?

    are you unable to grasp/comprehend the basic fact/difference that i am not talking about selling currently state-owned assets..

    ..i am talking about nationalising-lite/m.o.m-ing industries like gambling/alcohol..(as just two examples..)

    ..comprende..?

    so no ‘conflict with maori’ there i think..eh..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  158. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    backtracking by changing the subject to alcahol and gambling, waste of time from hereon in, off on the alcohol tangent to divert attention from the hypocritical posts

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  159. bhudson (4,720 comments) says:

    The government might actually be better off fiscally as a result – the horror!

    Oh yes. Who gives a damn about our kids’ learning? Or our small and medium businesses?

    Yes, that’s right. We don’t need to invest in growing the country and the prosperity of our people. No – we can bask in the indirect taxation of dividends from power companies coming from the profits of them charging the domestic economy.

    Great. They have grown our economy how? They have contributed, positively, to our balance of payments, how? They have invested in the infrastructure to help our children and grandchildren prosper in the future, how?

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  160. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    s.n.s @ 8.26….

    ..good grief..!

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  161. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @leftyliberal

    Didn’t read far enough….

    Wind farms are no longer eligible for carbon credits, although some developers have yet to collect the credits they were granted under the PRE. The last round of the PRE was in 2004. Wind farms will not receive a free allocation of carbon credits under the Emissions Trading Scheme. Wind farms are built today only if they can generate electricity at a cost that is competitive with other forms of generation.

    http://windenergy.org.nz/nz-wind-farms/operating-wind-farms/tararua

    Good to hear that is the case in New Zealand at the moment.

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  162. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    mikenmild – what are your views on water rights and water ownership?

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  163. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    You are far too fuckung stoned to sort your conflicting posts out, don’t ask me to do it for you.

    You were taking the piss one way or the other, don’t fuck me around

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  164. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Now back to this water thing.
    When the water has passed down the ancestral waterways to lakes and rivers then to the sea, it will disperse Worldwide.
    So at what stage is it not OWNED by MAORI and becomes owned by another Indigenous money grabbing people?

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  165. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Example:
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/28/us-usa-river-washington-idUSBRE83R0DX20120428

    Goodbye Waikato River as we know it, goodbye Lake Karapiro, goodbye rowing in New Zealand; just because Maori want the waterways and water.
    Phuck

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  166. mikenmild (8,894 comments) says:

    Is water property, or not? It seems to me that it has many of the attributes of things that we have no trouble in treating as private property, like trees or minerals. To the extent that water obviously cannot be controlled in the same way as other property it also has attributes of things that cannot be owned, like the air, although we well wish to regulate its use.
    I can’t see any real difficulty with a proposition that the aboriginal peopled owned all of the resources of the country, including the water. At some stage, the right to control the use of water has transferred to central and local government, which attempt to regulate it in the public interest. The question at issue is how that transfer of control was effected.

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  167. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Goodbye Waikato River as we know it, goodbye Lake Karapiro,..”

    ..where are they going..?

    ..i mean..following yr logic…we’d be flogging lake taupo off to foreign ownership..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  168. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    ““..Goodbye Waikato River as we know it, goodbye Lake Karapiro,..”

    ..where are they going..?”

    Good point Mr Ure, they are going nowhere, just like the parts of the State Owned Enterprises. The 49% shares are up for sale but the ownership stays as does the physical asset.

    Good to see that you understand the concept.
    Now let’s go back to your new idea, explain it. Some say once sold it is lost forever, you explain with your expertise please

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  169. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    I reckon your best bet is to invest, buy some shares Mr Ure.
    Contact WINZ, I’m sure they have a list of Brokers who discount for those on a Benifit

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  170. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    I do believe you have been handed your arse on a plate again Mr Ure, I will wait for my demerits when you sook

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  171. Nostalgia-NZ (4,697 comments) says:

    ‘Steve (North Shore) (2,862) Says:
    July 10th, 2012 at 8:38 pm
    You are far too fuckung stoned to sort your conflicting posts out, don’t ask me to do it for you.

    You were taking the piss one way or the other, don’t fuck me around’

    Confusion between a keyboard and real life.

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  172. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    @ Nostalgia,
    There is no real life for Mr Ure, it is just a fantasy about a blog that he calls work. He then uses other blogs to link.
    Nobody comments on his blog, he is prostituting himself here, a slut in blog etiquette

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  173. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “.Now let’s go back to your new idea, explain it..”

    i already did..

    what bit(s) didn’t you understand..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  174. Nostalgia-NZ (4,697 comments) says:

    It’s a free country Steve.
    I think you’ve made your point many times, probably no need to be anxious about that. Certainly no need to get upset.

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  175. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Those ‘bits’ would be the ‘bits’ that only you understand. Nobody else does.
    Later, I start at 7am, you start a 5am, but I WORK

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  176. thedavincimode (6,131 comments) says:

    testing, testing …

    “..May I suggest a quick IQ test when logging into Kiwiblog? ..”

    wouldn’t testing if knuckles drag on the ground while walking be a more effective filter..?

    Hmmm. Gratuitous, unprovoked and flagrant insult of everyone who vists these pages. Gotta be worth a ticket.

    But how would he respond to the suggestion that he is simply a lying, leeching, bludging, drug-fucked criminal non-man, perennial failure and self-professed chronic masturbator who hides behind a teenager’s trousers while people worse off than him work to support him, and who has never done an honest thing, let alone day’s work, in his entire pointless life and who will go to his grave a lazy pointless little piece of low excrement-styled shit, respond to any criticism of himself?

    Grosse Point waits.

    [DPF: 50 demerits]

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  177. Viking2 (10,738 comments) says:

    Key’s stand on water insult to us all – Maori Party
    TRACY WATKINS AND KATE CHAPMAN
    Last updated 05:00 11/07/2012

    The Maori Party is accusing Prime Minister John Key of inflaming a row over Maori water claims after the Waitangi Tribunal heard his comments could spark “race riots”.

    Likening the row to the divisive foreshore and seabed debate, Maori Party co-leaders Pita Sharples and Tariana Turia yesterday said Mr Key’s comment that the Government might choose to ignore the findings of the Waitangi Tribunal over water rights was “an insult to all of us”.

    Dr Sharples said he was seeking an urgent meeting with Mr Key to discuss his comments and acknowledged it had inflamed emotions over the issue.

    “I was in WHANGAREI… and all the Maori there signalled to me they were very, very unhappy with that comment.”

    Here’s the good thing about that.

    http://screencast.com/t/foPUwHDYAoy

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7256683/Keys-stand-on-water-insult-to-us-all-Maori-Party

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