General Debate 1 July 2012

July 1st, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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190 Responses to “General Debate 1 July 2012”

  1. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Oh dear…I really don’t want to be first…but the Great Question Evader must be pursued…

    You were asked two very simple questions yesterday phool – on several occasions by several different people (if you really believe that BB, Renderer, LAJ and others are me, you must be much further gone that I thought)

    So the questions are, again:

    1. Where did you go for what shall henceforth be known among Kiwibloggers as “The Blessed Silence” – those two days when we were free from your inane gibberish?; and

    2. What did happen to the Nippers mother ?

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  2. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    i txted while cycling yesterday…is that against the law..?..it felt like it should be…

    and i was riding without a helmet…and on the pavement…

    ..is that a three-striker..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  3. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    oh..!..look..!..garrett wants to play groundhog day again…

    ..i am fucken bored with the fool…

    ..his downfall is complete..

    ..so i think i will just in the main ignore him and his multiple characters/blog-names..

    ..(could someone pass that on to him..?..)

    ..of course..i reserve/retain the right to scoff at will…

    ..and in that vein..have you all seen that tv3 news item showing his house in the country..?

    ..trailer trash in a field..

    ..it really is further illuminating…

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  4. Keeping Stock (10,166 comments) says:

    Now look here David; I normally enjoy your contributions, but PLEASE; don’t encourage him. It only fuels his narcissism.

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  5. labours a joke (442 comments) says:

    Ive seen mrs phool…shes got a face like a dropped pie ( much like the boy )..infact shes so ugly, ..” HOW UGLY! ”
    …she should be haunting houses.

    [DPF: 30 demerits and at 100 that is a suspension]

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  6. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (this one that i found this morn is particularly relevant to us here in nz..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2012/trans-pacific-partnership-under-cover-of-darkness-a-corporate-coup-is-underway/

    “..The highly secretive pact – dubbed “NAFTA on steroids” -

    - is so invasive it would even limit how governments can spend tax dollars…”

    (cont..)

    (read..and be alarmed..be very very alarmed…this govt is selling our rights to govern ourselves to corporations..

    ..are you all just going to sleepwalk into this one too..?..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  7. Scott Chris (5,959 comments) says:

    LIBOR may not be what you think it is.

    Seems Barclays bank illegally manipulated the inter-bank interest rate during the GFC so that money loaned between banks didn’t carry the interest rating dictated by the market. (in other words, the market should determine the risk of lending that money)

    Barclays chief executive Bob Diamond has admitted for the first time that the bank made a conscious decision to falsify Libor rates in order to protect the bank at the height of the financial crisis.

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  8. Pete George (23,273 comments) says:

    National announced some ambitious targets this well, and predictably the opposition went negative. Dumb move.

    Labour would do themselves – and the country – some good if they pledged to aim for these targets as well. They can debate the means of achieving them, but in general we should be aspiring to these sorts of ambitions.

    Seems like a no-brainer, if they can put reactionary negative politics aside. National’s targets – what Labour should do.

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  9. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    perhaps the worst piece of ‘current affairs’ tripe/rubbish/garbage in many a long year..is/was that interview with the person/media-trout who twittered his way into a swim in dotcoms’ pool.on ‘the nation’..

    ..we are shark-jumping here..!..people..!

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  10. Other_Andy (2,486 comments) says:

    Well, that’s it for today.
    The ure-nator has marked this patch.
    You might as well rename this thread David and-or Kokila.
    General debate is a misnomer.
    What about:
    Dots and dashes?
    The Inane ramblings of a narcissist?
    This blog’s been hijacked!
    Or just…….General Rubbish.
    See ya later, or not……

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  11. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    heh..!..brian edwards..the po-faced snob benchmark..reacts with horror to the suggestion that he is a ‘po-faced snob’..

    ..now that’s funny..!

    ..his trite/simplistic observation that ‘reality television is not about reality’…didn’t help his ‘not-po’ case/defence either..

    (he obviously hasn’t seen ‘wife swap’..eh..?..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  12. nickb (3,675 comments) says:

    Another Sunday, another bullshit sob story with piss poor journalism in the SST.

    What couple earning a combined income of $130k a year pays $200 per week on life insurance and income/mortgage protection? $200 a month in their case would still seem on the high side to me.

    What is up with the “doing it tough” stories in almost every eidtiion of every paper at least once a week lately? Always accompanied by outlandish expenditure claims, no reporting of extra government assistance the people are most likely receiving, and the heavy outgoing on HP’s etc from the purchase of consumer goods…. please, give me a fucking break.

    /rant over

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  13. grumpyoldhori (2,416 comments) says:

    Move to Canada to avoid Obama care :-) conservatives are not the sharpest knifes in the drawer.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare

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  14. DavidR (102 comments) says:

    I totally agree with Keeping Stock @ 8.14 – David, your contributions here are well worthwhile, but not when you’re smacking the phool – he obviously craves it and we all know he only asks questions. He doesn’t answer any.

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  15. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Here we go again! Another GD’s day ruined by the obnoxious crim and bludger.

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  16. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    The buggers should be asking Saudi Arabia instead: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/30/us-imf-egypt-idUSBRE85S1JC20120630

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  17. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    corin dann is making a fair fist of holding english to account…

    ..phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  18. Yvette (2,743 comments) says:

    Phil mentions this, but that should not kill it dead –

    Trans-Pacific Partnership
    … But trade is the least of it. Only two of TPP’s 26 chapters actually have to do with trade. The rest is about new enforceable corporate rights and privileges and constraints on government regulation. This includes new extensions of price-raising drug patent monopolies, corporate rights to attack government drug formulary pricing plans, safeguards to facilitate job offshoring and new corporate controls over natural resources.

    Also included are severe limits on government regulation of financial services, zoning and land use, product and food safety, energy and other essential services, tobacco, and more. The copyright chapter poses many of the threats to Internet freedom of the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA), which was stalled in Congress under intense public pressure …

    Indeed, signatory countries would be obliged to conform all their domestic laws and regulations to TPP’s rules, effecting a quiet corporate coup d’état. And, regardless of election outcomes or changes in public opinion, these extreme rules could not be altered without the consent of all signatory countries. Failure to conform to these rules would subject countries to indefinite trade sanctions …

    How could something so extreme get so far? Because the entire process has occurred under conditions of unprecedented secrecy. And, the goal is to sign a final deal before the [US] election.

    [ At a public forum on 6 July 2011, legal experts in New Zealand presented their concerns that the agreement could undermine law regarding Māori culture, genetic modification, copyright, and remove the subsidised medicine New Zealanders have access to through Pharmac ]

    I hope the Government explains this treaty to the New Zealand public better than they explained partial state asset sales.

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  19. renderer (54 comments) says:

    ..How can Philu NOT realize that everyone wishes he would go away.
    ..He’s obnoxious
    ..stupid
    ..and clueless
    ..He’s uninteresting
    ..not witty
    ..and not wanted
    .. What a bloody gomer!

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  20. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    english..the man with ‘no vision’….

    ..just blind-ideology..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  21. MT_Tinman (3,043 comments) says:

    DavidR (79) Says:
    July 1st, 2012 at 9:03 am
    ….. and we all know he only asks questions. He doesn’t answer any.

    You might but personally I’ve not read enough of the leech’s crap to know any such thing.

    My scroll wheel works perfectly satisfactorily.

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  22. Pete George (23,273 comments) says:

    Bill English is an excellent deputy PM. Steady, dependable, straight talker, consistent aims, careful management of a difficult economy. A good balance to Key’s leadership.

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  23. dog_eat_dog (760 comments) says:

    Thank God TVNZ 7 is dead. I wanted it to live in on some form, but after months of Curran’s faux hand-wringing over ‘public broadcasting dying off’ – despite it being produced by a quasi-commercial station with ads on all their other channels – it seems an easy bargain. As for the extremely one-sided bulletin on One News last night, well, that demonstrated why it’s not deserving of any additional state assistance. And maybe Clare should ask the Labour leading light Sir Michael Cullen, whose budgeting know-how they continue to laud to this day, why – if TVNZ7 was so precious – didn’t they put in place permanent funding when he was on his spending binge in dying days of the last Labour Government? National didn’t pull funding, it just ran out. If it was important enough to matter then Labour should have locked it when they had the chance.

    But that would require introspection, and Labour finds that hard, and Curran finds it impossible. Gotta love List MPs.

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  24. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Sorry chaps….you are all absolutely right…it’s just I have always been a bit of a sucker for a mystery, and the reason for those mysterious two days of peace intrigues me…All the more so because of his complete refusal to enlighten us…

    But now I shall attend to rustic rural pursuits beginning with bottling ginger beer with the children, getting the Sunday roast going (their Mother is a guest) and weather permitting, planting some trees and doing some weeding…

    Yes campers, everything you have heard about right wingers wishing to cut down every tree we see and otherwise lay waste to the environment is, like much else claimed about us, utter bullshit….

    Have a good Sunday GD….

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  25. Scott Chris (5,959 comments) says:

    labours a joke (442) Says:
    July 1st, 2012 at 8:19 am
    Ive seen mrs phool…shes got a face like a dropped pie ( much like the boy )..infact shes so ugly, ..” HOW UGLY! ”
    …she should be haunting houses.

    [DPF: 30 demerits and at 100 that is a suspension]

    Good job. One less brainless troll-baiter.

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  26. Nookin (3,176 comments) says:

    Another cricket tour — bowlers flayed to all quarters, Oram is injured. Nothing much changes, does it?

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  27. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (todays’ best-of..so far..)

    “…The age of illusion: An interview with Chris Hayes..”

    “..Mexico’s alcohol ban..”

    “…A Snitch’s Dilemma…”

    “…A Sucker is Born…” ‘

    “…Not Dark Yet: But I have seen the Footlong Hot Dog of the Apocalypse..”

    “…‘A journey into moral depravity’ – US Congressman Dennis Kucinich on covert wars…”

    “…Trans-Pacific Partnership: Under Cover of Darkness – a Corporate Coup Is Underway…”

    “…Why There Has Been an Explosion in Bipolar Diagnoses…”

    “…Born Evil: That’s What the Mormon Church Taught Me as a Brown and Female Child…”

    “…Forget Politics – Here Are 10 Things That Really Divide Americans…”

    “…How Right-Wingers Scam People Into Buying Their Toxic Philosophy…”

    “…Corporate Profits at All-Time High – Wages at All-Time Low – Can We Call it Class War Yet?..” | | AlterNet

    “…It’s not the school you go to that determines how well you do – it’s the class system – stupid..”

    “…Polluting Countries Ranked By Carbon Dioxide Emissions With Climate Considered…”

    “…Harvard scientists reverse the ageing process in mice – now for humans…”

    “…What does being a dad mean?…”

    “…Cost of Prince Charles rises to £2.2m..”

    “…The Stone Roses return triumphant and Manchester parties like it’s 1989…”

    “…The Barclays scandal is not ‘wholly inappropriate’. It’s a crime…”

    “…Matt McCarten: Obamacare a start to fix shameful disparity…”

    “…Herald on Sunday Editorial: Kowtowing police forgot rules…”

    “…Minister asked to explain ‘massive discrepancy’..”

    “…The rampant cost of living means two-income families are increasingly worse off than single-income families were a generation ago – and it is threatening to put them under…”

    “…If banks have values – they are greed – hubris – and sheer brass neck…”

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  28. Nookin (3,176 comments) says:

    Phil
    If you want people to go to those items, why don’t you provide a link like everyone else?
    If you only want people to go to your website (which you acknowledge to be a commercial if not profitable venture) why not pay DPF advertising like everyone else? It never ceases to amaze me how you can brazenly suck everyone else’s tit, contribute nothing and condemn everyone else for doing just what you are doing.

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  29. wiseowl (815 comments) says:

    Ignoring the usual crap.

    Yvette@9.17 am

    Says it all ‘only 2 of 26 chapters in TTP to do with trade’.

    These so-called free trade deals are less and less about trade and more about backroom deals.They all have an odour about them.
    This one sounds pretty bad and what do the public know, nothing.

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  30. Pete George (23,273 comments) says:

    Good to see those demerits.

    Everyone would do well to reflect on the nature of comments and debate here. Phil continues to be apparently deliberately provocative – and he dishes out abuse too – but there’s no need to lower to or exceed his level.

    The quality of this community depends on all who contribute. In return for the privilege of particiapting here we owe it to DPF to respect his blog, not trash it but piling in rubbish.

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  31. alex Masterley (1,498 comments) says:

    Nookin,

    Same shit different cricket tour.

    I don’t know why I waste my time supporting the NZ cricket team, but there is always the hope of success some day.
    And there is the pleasure of attending, even though it is at Eden Park a cricket test in Auckland.

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  32. Neil (570 comments) says:

    Agree with Pete George’s assessment of Bill English. He is a safe pair of hands,like Bill Birch, who has a good feel for the political feelings of the population.
    What I really dislike about TV presenters,Like Corin Dam on TV1, is that they ask questions, start getting answers and then quickly butt in with another question. Paul Holmes has that bad habit as well.

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  33. Keeping Stock (10,166 comments) says:

    @ Alex; I’m planning on being in Auckland on business for most of the test next year, and given that “business” is just a short walk from Eden Park, a gathering of kindred spirits for a few ales might be in order; would you be a starter?

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  34. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..not trash it but(sic) piling in rubbish..”

    are you announcing a vow of silence..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  35. Nookin (3,176 comments) says:

    Alex

    And I left out the bit about the batsmen collapsing like a house of cards!

    Isn’t there some talk of moving the test match to another ground?

    Sheee, it’s cold here. Fingers too cold to type.

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  36. Pete George (23,273 comments) says:

    Correction: In return for the privilege of particiapting here we owe it to DPF to respect his blog, not trash it by piling in rubbish.

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  37. alex Masterley (1,498 comments) says:

    Nookin.

    I am at work with the heater on. Even in Auckland it’s coldish and I have the flu, again. If you ask why I have a family commmitment this afternoon and a professional deadline tomorrow.

    I think that it is cast in stone that the test will be at Eden Park. Which is good for me as it is a short stroll to the ground and a good stagger home.

    I2. What a good idea! Yes, of course I am a starter.

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  38. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Isn’t there some talk of moving the test match to another ground?..”

    there was talk from a group of languid/rich ponsonby-ites/herne bay-ites..obviously finding it quite tiresome to have to drive/be driven to eden park for cricket tests…

    ..they would rather just stroll down the road to watch a game..

    ..so they are trying to get their dibs on victoria park…and to tturn it into a cricket test-field..

    ..’sport’ already poaches far too much of what is one of the very few inner city green spaces..

    ..and for the residents in those towers on the hill..this is their yard…

    ..it should stay that way..

    ..it is one of the few welcoming to all..unlike say the viaduct..areas in ak..

    ..and the languid ones must just steel themselves for that harrowing journey to eden park…

    ..tales to tell the chaps about tho’..eh..?

    ..phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  39. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..He is a safe pair of hands,like Bill Birch,..”

    now that is funny..!

    ..they do both have in common tho’..that they rule/ed by boring the pants off anyone who comes/came within coo-ee…

    ..people agree just to get away..

    ..corin dann actually got englishs’ easter-island-icon of a face to twitch a couple of times..which was no mean feat..

    ..inspiring awe..like watching cracks suddenly appear in a statue..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  40. Sofia (828 comments) says:

    Again, what are charter schools supposed to do?

    Just as John Banks [remember him?] and ACT are on to it, the UK may be on to something else [and weren't they already flogging off assets before Roger Douglas had his original innovative inspirations]

    So how do we tackle educational inequalities? Above all, it means tackling broader inequalities: the stresses that poverty puts on some people’s lives; investing in good housing, with enough space to study; a good diet (through free school breakfasts and dinners, for example); and so on. It means addressing the early educational gap by investing in SureStart and nursery education. It also means promoting social mixing in schools: OECD research suggests that a better mix improves the results of the least well-off students without dragging down overall performance. That would mean getting rid of the remaining grammar schools, ensuring mixing in comprehensive schools (for example, through a lottery system for high school access), and abolishing private schools (starting by scrapping their charitable status, which is worth £100m of taxpayers’ money).

    Finland consistently tops PISA’s international rankings for best-performing education systems: it has no selection, free school meals, and very few private schools. But it also has a far more equal and less fragmented society. If we’re going to improve educational results in this country, it means less of an obsessive focus on the schools – and more attention to the grotesque broader inequalities of modern British society.

    http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/06/29/its-not-the-school-you-go-to-that-determines-how-well-you-do-its-the-class-system-stupid/

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  41. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    Free trade?

    It’s a lie. Both Labour and National bent over backwards to get that deal with the centrally planned,massively corrupt ,oppressive ,dictatorial Chinese regime,saying theirs was a free economy.What a crock.

    Another first for New Zealand!

    More jobs lost tto the sweatshops of Canton.

    We kowtow to our Chinese masters and pretend it’s free trade.

    And when the China fairy tale goes belly up who will we export milk to. Better diversify now cos it’s going to be velly,velly ugaly.

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  42. wat dabney (3,716 comments) says:

    Sofia,

    Remember that the UK state education system is utterly broken.

    How many millions of lives have been completed blighted by this disaster?

    Such a thing simply could not happen in a private education system.

    So that’s what charter schools are (partially) supposed to do.

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  43. Pete George (23,273 comments) says:

    Euthanasia was discussed on Q+A this morning. The debate on choices about dying often become pro versus anti arguments which can tend towards ‘possible’ extremes.

    The status quo isn’t perfect, some people are forced to suffer awful deaths. Any change would have it’s own possible problems.

    But Euthanasia’s number one question should be whether any change would overall be better than what we have at present or not.

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  44. wat dabney (3,716 comments) says:

    kowtow,

    It doesn’t actually matter directly to NZ consumers whether overseas economies are free or state-controlled. All that matters is that we have the opportunity to raise our own standard of living through trade, which means dropping import tariffs etc.

    If National is negotiating a set of multilateral legal treaties in the name of free trade then they deserve to lose every election from here to eternity. But Remember that National is just Labour in drag, so don’t be too surprised at their statist antics.

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  45. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    so..kowtow..you must be really pissed off about the t.p.p.-deal..eh..?

    ..given as how we will be signing our sovereignty away to foreign corporations..

    ..and/to what benefit to most of us..?

    ..we will lose subsidised/bulk-bought medicines by pharmac…

    ..and will see a huge escalation in drug prices…

    ..isn’t just that enough to scare the torpor out of you…?

    ..this is not a left vs. right argument…

    ..it is one that should unite both…

    ..it is a matter of our sovereignty/rights to rule in our best interests..forever..

    ..i find that really fucken scary..

    ..phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  46. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    Phil mentions this, but that should not kill it dead –

    Something that may piss phil off though not that I care, is that I posted a link on this very topic about a week ago. phil’s a bit slow. I haven’t bothered to look at his link to see if its mine or not, I hate second hand old news, that’s one of the many reasons I never visit whoar – it’s out of date, big time. And look at the point he raises in his 10:48 – pharmac. Well duh. As if that hasn’t been the issue since the TPP was first announced years ago.

    It’s amazing that even though phil does this for a “living” he’s still second hand and lacking insight. But what else does anyone expect.

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  47. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    gee twitchy..my whoar-archives on tpp go back to november 2009…

    ..and the articles/links are about 16 in number..

    ..so..y’know..!..

    ..that whoar..eh..?

    ..always first with the best..eh..?

    ..and thanks for asking..

    ..eh..?

    “..a link on this very topic about a week ago..”..heh..!

    ..phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  48. Yvette (2,743 comments) says:

    Leaping Jimmy – No, Phil’s TPP reference is not the same as yours, not that it matters.
    And it was I who mentioned Pharmac, which [commented on July, 2011] is – you’re righ of course! – almost a year old but who is going to give a fuck about theTPP unless a connection hits them in the pocket, and as the medicines prescription fee increase from $3.00 to $5.00 was going to see people dying [Harawira], see what the TPP rules may do.

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  49. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    here ya go..twitchy-jim/reid…

    ..get up to speed..eh..?

    http://whoar.co.nz/?s=tpp

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  50. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Miss Dim would be outraged http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/30/gop-backer-casino-mogul-adelson-reportedly-gave-10-m-to-koch-brothers-efforts/

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  51. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Incredible. Why is this loser being remembered?
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sharpton-set-eulogize-rodney-king-la-funeral-16684590#.T–QVPUlp8E

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  52. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    Another example of phil’s obtuse approach is the way he still clings to the same argument that got him banned last time. Last night on GD he demonstrated his thinking hadn’t changed one little bit from where it was when he went mental over the abortion issue a few years ago. Apparently, he still thinks one of the main reasons women have abortions is because they wouldn’t get enough money to support them on the DPB. How dumb is that? I mean what sort of fool thinks that would be a factor in any woman’s thinking let alone the majority of women in that situation? What a moron. I mean you’d have to be completely mental.

    But are we surprised? Of course not. It’s what we all expect, from the court jester. The thing I wonder about is, did phil buy his masters degree from some Indian university? It’s hard to imagine any regular institution would anyone who thinks like phil does something like that, isn’t it.

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  53. Viking2 (11,244 comments) says:

    The best reason around why the Govt. should sell assets.
    Govt. servants don’t give a shit about costs.

    A Herald on Sunday inquiry into mobile phone spending found hundreds of public servants are racking up thousands of dollars each month for “roaming” fees while overseas – with the advent of smart phones causing a leap in public sector spending on mobile phones.

    This is despite policy stating employees should use their phones to access the internet only when there are no alternatives.

    In one case, a Genesis Energy executive was charged $5072 in one month.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816586

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  54. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    For those interested in Syria.

    As we all know, this is the pre-cursor to Iran. Is that what you really want and if so, do you know the consequences of what you’re wishing for?

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/06/30/248669/covert-war-underway-in-syria-territory/

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  55. Andrei (2,530 comments) says:

    How about a feel good story of no particular significance to raise the tone of the thread

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  56. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    I was walking along Ponsonby Road yesterday afternoon and I noticed there was much homosexuality in the air.

    It must have been affecting me because I was starting to dress better.

    So I did the only sensible thing and rushed home and un-learnt any homosexuality that I might have picked up.

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  57. renderer (54 comments) says:

    Thats a really cool story for a Sunday Andrei

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  58. noskire (834 comments) says:

    So it seems SBW is set to move to a Japanese club, then to the Sydney Roosters http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10816545. He should take the Black Caps with him.

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  59. Brian Smaller (4,025 comments) says:

    What you can expect where ever these 7th century animals get power.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/7200406/Mali-Islamists-destroy-holy-Timbuktu-sites

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  60. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    While on Auckland

    The Auckland War Memorial Museum has an exhibition of the world wildlife photographer of the year ,winners and finalists, from the age groups through to the professionals – simply stunning and its free.

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  61. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    brian
    Seventh century indeed. They take or destroy everything they can.
    Even the Koran is a bastardisation of the Jewish and Christian bible.
    Jewish holy sites are now Muslim ones based on a dream .
    One of the greatest buildings of the Byzantine Empire ,Hagia Sophia,was turned into a mosque and is now a museum.
    The Buddhist Afhanistan is being wiped from memory etc

    War cemetaries in Gaza and Libya…….nothing sacred ,not even their Sufi saints.

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  62. TheContrarian (1,081 comments) says:

    “I don’t know why I waste my time supporting the NZ cricket team, but there is always the hope of success some day.”

    Yah, fuck man – I love cricket but being a New Zealander makes cricket cringe worthy. Gone are the days of Greatbatch, Crowe, Harris et al.

    My wife is South African and I am thinking of switching cricketing allegiance.

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  63. bc (1,344 comments) says:

    Re: first post @ 8.08am by David Garrett

    To David (and a couple of others who do the same)
    Here’s what I don’t get, I am truly baffled and I can’t be the only one. You criticise philu from hijacking the general debate comments.
    Yet in the couple of days where there are no comments from philu – who gets talked about? You guessed it. (It’s almost like he was missed).
    Then in the FIRST post of the day today, who gets talked about?
    It is YOU David, not philu that has set the tone of the general debate today.
    So I have to ask, because I really need to know – WHY, David?
    Why mention him?
    Why start the day with such a nasty personal attack?
    Why do you let him get to you?
    Big Bruv and others that do the same – feel free to contribute. Honestly, you all need therapy – get it out of the system!

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  64. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Well said bc. If you enjoy the fire; then fan it. Attention for Philu is the oxygen that feeds the flame of his sickness.

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  65. nasska (10,865 comments) says:

    bc

    I know where you’re coming from & you are largely correct when you & ‘mikenmild’ state that it is the attention that the PhilU strain of blog blight thrives on. The part you miss is that no one bothers to interact or debate any serious subject in the full knowledge that such comments will be drowned in a sea of ellipses, bile & self promotion.

    The vacuum this creates is filled with anti Phil abuse & so the downward spiral continues. There are about half a dozen interesting people who have stopped commenting over the past couple of weeks.

    Let’s hope they return when the bilious one once again demerits himself into oblivion.

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  66. bc (1,344 comments) says:

    Oh well, good to see labours a joke gone after his nasty 8.19am comment.
    Manolo (@9.04am) and renderer (@9.18am) are slow learners.

    Still after a wobbly start the general debate seems to fixed itself today and has become quite civilised. So there is hope yet!

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  67. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    (oo-err..!..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2012/top-tories-dragged-into-banking-scandal/

    “…Cameron allies linked to City firms under scrutiny over interest rate fixing..”

    (eh..?..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  68. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..What I really dislike about TV presenters,Like Corin Dam on TV1, is that they ask questions, start getting answers and then quickly butt in with another question…”

    it is not the prime task of journalist-interviewers to be ‘polite’..above all else…

    ..it is their job to question..to hold to account..in our name/for us…

    ..and i know that english and others (key esp.) have for so long just got away with either not answering the question at all…and just being allowed to blather on about whatever they like…

    ..a style of interviewee-enabling that leaves everyone ignorant at the end of proceedings…

    ..so i welcome this new non-politeness from not only dann..but also campbell…

    ..it means there is more of an effort made to actually hold the lying bastards to account…

    ..and to actually leave us all a little bit wiser/more aware at the end of the exercise..

    ..dann was just doing the job he is meant to..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  69. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    The Sunday Star Times is full of blog fodder today, but I am unable to post anything as I’m just on my phone and out and about.

    Michael Laws in particular with his musings on how to instil morality in his young children.

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  70. Colville (2,165 comments) says:

    Its time for me to ditch my Blackberry, I have been avoiding this day for too long..
    who has a S3 Samsung ?

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  71. hmmokrightitis (1,566 comments) says:

    OMFG, National drug testing beneficiaries – hoo-fucking-ray!! About bloody time. If I have to submit to one to work, WTF shouldn’t they to get my taxes!

    Great work National, thank you. And you dope smoking bastards, time to front up :)

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  72. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    Man admitted to hospital for kidney stone discovers he’s a woman. Actually, he’s intersex but that probable doesn’t make such a catchy headline. Still, he now lives as a woman, and his wife and children are standing by him. So, a same-sex marriage that produced children!

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  73. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    National drug testing beneficiaries

    Got a link?

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  74. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    Chiz,

    That would be pretty rare. He’s obviously got working man bits if he sired 6 children.

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  75. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    Not that rare according to the article – 1500 born a year.

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  76. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “….That would be pretty rare. He’s obviously got working man bits if he sired 6 children…”

    It’s the milkman, postie, neighbour…..or more than likely……the lot of ‘em :cool:

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  77. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Surely she/he should have the legal right to marry her/himself?

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  78. Scott Chris (5,959 comments) says:

    Anyone have Matchbox Cars as a kid and a Hot Wheels Loop the Loop?

    You’ll like this.

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  79. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    I did, thanks Scott.

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  80. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    I don’t think I’d want to marry myself no matter how many bits I had.

    The poor guy’s wife. I’d hate to find out my husband was really a woman years down the track. Though, he doesn’t run like a girl, so probably very little chance of that.

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  81. Nookin (3,176 comments) says:

    “..it is their job to question..to hold to account..in our name/for us…”

    No its not.

    This is where journalists’ egos have gone wild. They seem to think that politicians are accountable to them and they they are the true representatives of the electorate. Unfortunately many journoes – Garner, Smalley, Gower — have their own political and social paradigms and they demand politicians conform to them or they will give them a hard time. I have no problem with probing questions and trying to get a straight answer or even postulating an opposing view and ask why it isn’t valid. That, however, is not we get. For many interviewers, the interview is about them and their views. Nothing about what the interviewee has to say.

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  82. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    i agree with the tendency of some interviewers for it all to be about them…some sort of arm-wrestle..and have moaned about that before..

    ..but that dann interview was not one of them..he walked that fine line…

    …and i hope to see more of that refusal to just nod along to the spin/bullshit/non-answering..from his contemporaries..

    ..key/this govt has long had a free ride from the mainstream media…(and i think they thought that easy-ride would last forever..)

    ..and/but if not them/journalists holding the politicians to account…

    ..then who..?

    ..and do you seriously think that is not their role..?

    ..so what do you think is their role..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  83. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I think that the prime function of journalism IS to hold power to account.

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  84. Viking2 (11,244 comments) says:

    A Colorado man who was admitted to the hospital for a kidney stone received surprising news when the nurse came back with test results revealing he was actually a woman.

    Steve, who now goes by “Stevie,” said his wife and their six children accepted his new identity right away.

    “The nurse is reading the ultrasound and says, ‘Huh, this says you’re a female,’ Crecelius said. “It was very liberating

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/05/25/man-admitted-to-hospital-for-kidney-stone-discovers-hes-a-woman/?fb_ref=abc-fb-recs

    Now that should bring out theLucia’s et al . Roll out you bigots.

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  85. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    ..he walked that fine line…

    Really? I thought he was near hysterical. As the interview marched on and his jab(jibe)s were unable to strike home, he got more and more shrill until he started to sound like a Pratt & Whitney on advancing throttle.

    It was clear that his interview was not about seeking facts or clarity, but merely an attempt to score points as if it was some sort of a boxing match. That is not “holding to account”.

    I wonder how much the Q&A production team are responsible for that. Shane Taurima was a far, far better and more effective interviewer when he was on Marae Investigates. His work for that programme during the election campaign was exceptional.

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  86. Viking2 (11,244 comments) says:

    Lucia, try asking a lady with kids in their 20′s who had her husband leave becuase he finally decided to out himself after 25 years as gay. His family still accept him but the poor lady was devastated. Remain freinds though.

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  87. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    I think that the prime function of journalism IS to hold power to account.

    Of course it is but it’s also to be politically neutral and hold all politicians to account not just those they disagree with. This is why just about every single journalist in the entire country is totally useless at their job.

    I was lucky enough to be in the last year that Professor Robert Chapman taught NZ Politics at Auckland University in the early 80′s. For those who aren’t aware, Chapman is a legend, the doyen of NZ political scientists. He was the political scientist’s political scientist.

    He said, in his very first lecture, that his job was to teach us NZ politics without us ever being able to tell who he voted for. And that is what every single journalist should strive to do in every single interview.

    But fact is, very few journalists even attempt to do that, let alone succeed. And given their job is to put the facts before the people and let the people decide, what does that say about the professionalism of lack of it, amongst journalists today.

    And I’ll tell ya what, the number of journos who get stuck into both the left and the right with equal vigour without fear nor favour are very few and far between and are regrettably becoming rarer with each passing year.

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  88. hmmokrightitis (1,566 comments) says:

    Laeping Jimmy…

    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/english-confirms-drug-tests-job-seekers-4952164 – yay!!

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  89. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    i agree that taurima is also a good interviewer..

    ..but don’t see the problems you do with his tvnz work

    ..boyed is not a good interviewer….the furrowed brow is about all he has seemed to master…

    ..he is another example of what i call the rawdon-christie-syndrome…

    ..where a previously competent news-reader..utterly fails to make the transition to a competent interviewer..

    ..christies pawing/fawning over politicians on breakfast telly..

    ..is watched between fingers from behind the couch television..

    ..it is so jaw-droppingly embarrassing…

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  90. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    Leaping Jimmy.

    “He said, in his very first lecture, that his job was to teach us NZ politics without us ever being able to tell who he voted for.”

    How I wish our journo’s were like that. The last one I can think of who interviewed without fear or favour was Perigo.

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  91. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Nookin 3

    “..it is their job to question..to hold to account..in our name/for us…” No its not. …”

    There was a good artical in The Australian by a media professor about media ownership and editorial independance.

    This is what he more or less said -

    Journalists try to tell everyone that they should have independance, but it is ownership that dictates the direction of where the newspaper is heading, because the investment in a media organisation is a private matter by private interests, and that direction is decided by directors.It also decides solvency or insolvency of the business. Journalists, if they don’t like the direction, can leave just like workers in other businesses do.

    The professor was writing in response to Gina Rhinehart taking control of the Melboune age, Sydney herald etc and it’s editors complaining about editorial direction.The editors are Lefties.As, is obvious.

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  92. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..The last one I can think of who interviewed without fear or favour was Perigo…”

    now that’s very funny..!

    ..it evinced a hoot of disbelief…

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  93. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    Today, July the 1st, is longer – by one second.

    Scientists will hold back time this weekend, making Sunday one second longer than any other day this year.

    A “leap second” will be inserted by scientists all over the world into the atomic time scale at midnight, June 30 UTC (Co-ordinated Universal Time), corresponding to noon, July 1 in New Zealand.

    UTC is the primary time standard by which the world regulates clocks and time.

    When the leap second is added, New Zealand’s atomic clocks will display ’11.59.59′, followed by ’11.59.60′ and ’12.00.00′, and Radio New Zealand listeners will hear an extra time ‘pip’ before the midday news bulletin.

    The brief halting of the second hand will prevent our atomic clocks speeding ahead of solar time based clocks, compensating for the gradual and unpredictable slowing down of Earth.

    The planet takes just over 86,400 seconds for a full 360-degree revolution, but “the rotation of the Earth is gradually slowing down, due to the drag of tides and other effects, and the duration of a day is getting longer,” MSL director Tim Armstrong said.

    The concept of leap seconds was introduced in 1972 to ensure that the atomic time scale never differed from the rotation of the Earth by more than one second.

    At the introduction of leap seconds, the atomic time scale was set to the length of one day.

    “Without leap seconds, eventually our clock time would get out of step with the time of day we expect from the location of the sun in the sky,” Dr Armstrong said.

    MORE

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  94. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    harriets’ 6.17 is essentially accurate…(just about the owners directing media…)

    ..and just confirms the imperatives for a broadcaster operating on all platforms..

    ..that is behoven to no private-owners/commercial-imperatives…

    ..and with ‘without fear or favour’ as their bye-line..

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  95. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    How I wish our journo’s were like that. The last one I can think of who interviewed without fear or favour was Perigo.

    Exactly BB. Ian Fraser wasn’t bad either. And believe it or not, that’s why Holmes lasted so long IMO. Although he got a bit far on the wrong side for quite awhile.

    I’ve just been listening to English on Q&A re: my 5:58. (I never look at TVNZ these days unless I have to – it never gives me anything I can’t get elsewhere). I can’t believe the rude arrogant twerpy behaviour of the small-brained little fuckwit who was interviewing him. I presume this is the same little prick that ure is referring to above when ure says:

    “..dann was just doing the job he is meant to..”

    Well FFS. What a shallow, pathetic, biased, ill-conceived and poorly executed interview with a nation’s Finance Minister, conducted at this time. What sum total of knowledge did this interviewer elicit, other than a childish petulance at why the most idiotic Gween socialist fantasies haven’t already been implemented? Talk about unsophisticated. Talk about: woosh, over the head, miss the point entirely. Talk about lost opportunity compared to what could have been elicited. Absolutely no understanding of how an economy really works, which is what this journalist no doubt has been paid to find out about, for years on end, until he got appointed into this exalted Q&A position, as someone who really understands not just the basics but all of the finer nuances. But no sign of any of those, whatsoever.

    And ure thinks this interviewer is too soft?

    FFS.

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  96. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    “A Colorado man who was admitted to the hospital for a kidney stone received surprising news when the nurse came back with test results revealing he was actually a woman.”

    Better start testing the Liarbour Party. Something is going on there I’m sure

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  97. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    LJ,
    I’m disapointed in Corin Dann’s performance as well. He needs to do better than try to be miniholmes.
    Maharey and Barnett agreeing with the mixed ownership sales? Barnett said it was not marketed properly but expected the shares to be snaffled up – strange thinking

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  98. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    To have friends in high places: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/29/clooney-to-raise-money-for-obama-in-geneva/

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  99. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Philu#

    It’s not about private interests ‘telling’ editors what to submit.

    It is about editors themselves, not taking sides.

    Both the Herald and Age give left leaning ‘veiws’ or put reports in a left ‘light’ because editors themselves have taken sides with the left.

    Readers have abandoned those papers because of this, and we know that because the share price is at it’s all time lowest – meaning that those that keep the paper going -the advertisers- have also departed due to declining sales.Polls have been showing this for the last several years.Readers don’t buy papers for advertisments.

    Readers -as you would be bloody aware- don’t like to read crap.Let alone pay to do so.

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  100. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    Idiot.
    So the questions are, again:

    1. Where did you go for what shall henceforth be known among Kiwibloggers as “The Blessed Silence” – those two days when we were free from your inane gibberish?; and

    2. What did happen to the Nippers mother ?

    When you have the time you can answer Phool. Were you in Jail?

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  101. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..And ure thinks this interviewer is too soft?..”

    you really have basic comprehension issues there…don’t you twitchy-jim/reid…?

    ..where did i say that…?

    ..the whole tone/timbre of what i said about that dann interview is that he stepped up to the plate..

    ..which orifice did you pluck that bullshit claim from..?

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  102. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    Phool forgot to but his recycle shit out.
    Neighbour says:
    ‘Where’s ya bin?’
    ‘Oh – iv bin in Australia’

    ‘No dopehead, where’s ya wheelie bin?’

    ‘Oh i’s realy bin in jail’ :(

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  103. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    ..but don’t see the problems you do with his tvnz work

    On Marae Invesitgates he let people answer the question. He came across as measured and well prepared. The interviews were worth watching – you could actually take something from them.

    On Q&A he has ‘transformed’ into some wannabe bull terrier of an interviewer. There is nothing to be learned from the interview; it is merely him trying to prove that he can ask questions better than the target can answer them.

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  104. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    oh look..!..garrets’ other persona..steve..is here..

    haven’t all of his aliases/personae been quiet today..?

    ..( a prior committment for garrett…as i understand it..)

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  105. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    no hudson..on marae taurima bored in..and would not let interviewees not answer questions…

    ..that is how he built his reputation…

    ..i only saw him blot his copybook once..

    ..in a butt-kissing interview he did of parata ..on tvnz..

    ..phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  106. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    The only ‘actor’ here is you Phool, and you are loving it – ripping of the TAXPAYER you fucking leech.
    Keep acting, you are going to be famous or infamous soon.
    DPF updated the demerits today – you are on 60, so it won’t be long smart arse

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  107. OneTrack (2,782 comments) says:

    bhudson – I never saw Shane Taurima on Marae but he is absolutely useless on The Nation. Screeching questions that are pretty hard to understand and he won’t let his interviewees get an answer out. He’s obviously been reading JournOlist 101 and he’s going to “Get the Big Scoop”, even if there isn’t one. It’s painful to watch and listen to. And usually I don’t – I change the channel.

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  108. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    Viking,

    Men who leave their wives because they find their inner “gay” are just another type of adulterer, in my opinion. The Sunday Star Times ran a feature on them last year or the year before, I think. I was horrified, reading the stories. It was almost like it was treated like a “get out of marriage free” card.

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  109. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I’m sure Lucia would be more approving if those guys just admitted they didn’t love their wives anymore instead of coming up with the lame “didn’t realise I was gay” thing.

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  110. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    mikenmild,

    No, I’d just tell them to man up. Love is not just* a feeling.

    edited to add just

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  111. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    the simpsons is very funny..

    ..they are ‘doing’ religion…

    (ned just had a nightmare of the future..todd graduates with a degree in comparative-religions…)

    ..heh..!

    phillip ure whoar.co.nz

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  112. nasska (10,865 comments) says:

    Your favourite lady is about to go into PMS mode when she :-
    Stops reading Cosmopolitan and starts reading Guns and Ammo.
    Considers chocolate a major food group.
    Puts on one of those pads with “wings,” then flies off the roof laughing hysterically while riding a broom.
    Develops a new talent for spinning her head around in 360 degree circles.
    Retains more water than Manapouri.
    Buys you a new T-shirt — with a bulls-eye on the front.
    Orders 3 Big Macs, 4 large fries, a bucket of Chicken McNuggets, and then mauls the manager because they’re out of Diet Coke.

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  113. Viking2 (11,244 comments) says:

    Lucia, your predudices leave you blind.
    Have you children?
    If you do then Pray your little heart out one doesn’t turn up gay because then you will have to decide if you love your child enough to continue that relationship or cast them adrift without your love.
    Oh you can be all bravado and bullshit now but when the time comes God and the Pope will be of no comfort to you.

    your heart torn between love and dogma.

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  114. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    See that Phool? joke start at 8 pm, not 7.50. Todd graduated but you didn’t – another lie.
    BUT did you get your qualification using your ‘other’ Drivers License?
    btw:
    1. Where did you go for what shall henceforth be known among Kiwibloggers as “The Blessed Silence” – those two days when we were free from your inane gibberish?; and

    2. What did happen to the Nippers mother ?

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  115. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    So I am watching a replay of this mornings Q&A. The Catholic wanker Alex Schadenberg who is against Marian Street’s death with dignity bill is really pissing me off.

    I do wish those who believe in the sky fairy would keep their fucking noses out of our life’s.

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  116. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    bb, made you feel it, did he?

    (Sorry, couldn’t resist a line from Casino Royale)

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  117. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    Ms Street has of course made the decision to do this ending with dignity in her own case – yet to be decided.
    Liabourites struggle to the end

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  118. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “….Have you children?
    If you do then Pray your little heart out one doesn’t turn up gay because then you will have to decide if you love your child enough to continue that relationship or cast them adrift without your love.
    Oh you can be all bravado and bullshit now but when the time comes God and the Pope will be of no comfort to you….”

    The vast majority of NZ kids are affirmed into their sexuality by their parents. Gay parents do this too.But moreso parents who have religious beliefs. To become gay is also due to the ignorance, or choice, of a parent.

    It’s not bravado or bullshit. Just doing whats best.

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  119. Steve (North Shore) (4,518 comments) says:

    No answer from Phool – as usual, you will never get any answer from a drug fucked train wreck – never

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  120. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    ……Catholic wanker….

    bigot bruv has come out to play

    V2 tried some Catholic baiting too.( I wonder if Kimfatcom is Catholic,a lot of Germans are them are )

    A lot of todays GD was taken up with the great idea of not baiting a certain poster.

    And yet the anti Catholics can’t help themselves . Fuck they’re boring.

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  121. TimG_Oz (924 comments) says:

    OK … I’ll admit it – I was wrong about the Carbon Tax and it’s effect on Global Warming.

    Today: First day of Carbon Tax, and also coldest day in Melbourne for 15 years.

    My concern now is that we have gone too far! If we don’t stop this Carbon Tax now, then we will start the next Ice age by the end of the year!

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  122. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    kowtow

    I am the bigot?

    Am I the one who tells people who to love and how to love?
    Am I the one who labels couples seeking IVF treatment as “sick”?
    Am I the one (when asked by the host of Q&A if I am against death with dignity because of a religious belief) who lied about my true motivation given that I am the leader of a Catholic pressure group?
    Am I the one who tells us all that life begins at ejaculation?

    No Kowtow, I am not the bigot.

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  123. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “….So I am watching a replay of this mornings Q&A. The Catholic wanker Alex Schadenberg who is against Marian Street’s death with dignity bill is really pissing me off…”

    Death with dignity ?

    Where Marian Street and the rest of the government actually decides who dies and who doesn’t ?

    Idiot. Doctors make mistakes about ‘life expectancy’ of ‘terminal patients’ every day, some even go into remission and go onto live for decades later.

    But nearly all of those who are ‘definitly’ terminal are usually only told with less than 6-8 weeks to live anyway, and pallatative care can give them a reasonable standard of living right up to the last week of living.There’s just no point in speeding it up by 2 weeks or so.

    Marian Street is about 2 decades late with this bill.

    But wait, maybe she thinks it is not about life and death afterall – but rather – those who just don’t like living – tetraplegics for example.Well, as bad as living like that is, it’s not a life or death matter.

    So what other matters is Marian Street going to introduce so that people can commit suicide – but arn’t life and death ?

    Loneliness – Widows for example ?

    Dispair – The retrenched, divorced, broke, homeless and now worthless middleage male ?

    How about someone who has had all their children murdered – or just 1 of them – say an only child ?

    Why can’t they not die – they are of just as sound a mind as a tetraplegic – if not moreso ?

    See….The government deciding who gets to die is not dignified. Infact, it’s not a road to go down, the greens will only lower the bar at each election till it becomes a ‘right’ of some 16yld girl who has been dumped by just some ‘shithead teenager’.

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  124. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    It seems we have the religious right out in force tonight…

    It is not the government who is deciding you idiot, the bill gives those who are suffering the right to choose.

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  125. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    The real Alex Schadenberg, the same one who said that he was not against the death with dignity bill because of any religious beliefs.

    “Alex Schadenberg, the Executive Director of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition, a Canadian Roman Catholic pressure group opposing assisted dying of any kind — holding even that the death of the brain-dead Terry Schaivo was murder! – and takes every possible opportunity to oppose the right to assistance in dying on the basis of Roman Catholic “pro-life” dogma (but what I choose to call the Roman Catholic death cult). He and his tiresome organisation intrudes in people’s lives even when such intervention is not only unwelcome but insulting and demeaning, and despite the fact that he has no special qualifications in bioethics, has managed to get his tendentious nonsense published in the National Post. In an article entitled “Legalizing euthanasia would leave the vulnerable unprotected,” he drags the old chestnut once again out of the fire, dusts off the burnt bits, and presents it as newly minted, hot-off-the-press, information that is vital for our society. I have (for the sake of full disclosure) a focused animus against this presumptuous and despicable man who speaks with such suffocating self-righteousness, for it was he who reported me to the police after I had returned from accompanying my wife Elizabeth to the Dignitas Clinic in Zürich, where she was helped to die before what she feared — being trapped in her body by MS — would prevent her from acting as she chose. It was a fate which, in her view, would have been far worse than death itself. It is people like Schadenberg who make sure that people like Elizabeth die before they really want to, for fear of being trapped and unable to receive the help in dying which they seek.”

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  126. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “….It is not the government who is deciding you idiot, the bill gives those who are suffering the right to choose….”

    What’s ‘suffering’ ?

    Idiot – The government decides by setting ‘proceedures’ for doctors etc.

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  127. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    Harriet

    So you are happy to see those who want to die with dignity suffer because of your religious beliefs?

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  128. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Righto…stories read, children tucked up…

    I see there remains no answers from he who demands that everyone else answers questions…..

    My boy is tucked up in bed…everyone know where there’s is/are? Mind you, if mine needs minding 24/7 at 16 I will have failed in my task…what’s the legal age they can be left alone again?

    Wow! “all life begins at ejaculation” ?? when did his Holiness come up with that one? Lucia, please step forward….

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  129. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Technically David, one can be left alone at 13 I believe. Some may still need minding in their fifties or even beyond…

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  130. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    big bigot

    catholics can’t and don’t stop you from doing jack shit,never have,you do what you want. We don’t live in the Middle ages.
    Every time “Catholic” comes up you pop out of the wood work ,like a Monty Python Inquisition character…….you’re a fucken caricature……and a bigot.

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  131. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    But if you don’t do what Benedict says, he won’t put in a good word for you with Jesus. Then where would you be?

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  132. renderer (54 comments) says:

    kowtow your first statement is a mile away from the religion i was unfortunately bought up in

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  133. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    kowtow

    The fact that you cannot stop me from doing what I want really pisses the likes of you and Lucia off.

    The fact that you still try and tell us what to do with our lives based on a book of fiction pisses me off.

    The result is that I will take every opportunity to fight against your bigotry and religious bullshit.

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  134. Yvette (2,743 comments) says:

    mikenmild –
    14

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  135. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    “all life begins at ejaculation”

    This is BS of course. All animal life begins with the fertilization of egg by sperm.

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  136. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “….So you are happy to see those who want to die with dignity suffer because of your religious beliefs?…”

    I haven’t bought religion into it – I presented my case without the use of the ‘r’ word – and the case against euthanasia on all fronts can be won without it.

    “…..being trapped in her body by MS….”

    They don’t ALL feel like that – why don’t we approach the problem from an ‘equality’ perspective that you lefties preach about all the time, do the studies, get the facts, and help to make the lives of those who are distressed with MS, as good as the lives of those with MS but who can cope ?

    Why have you written off those who ONLY find it ‘hard to cope’ – as good as dead already ? You seem rather sick !

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  137. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Wasn’t it just a few years ago that the Catholic church attempted to ban some movie which suggested Christ may have had a sexual relationship with Mary Magdalen?

    Renderer: I am entirely with you…the biggest cult in the world (just imagine hearing news today of a cult that actually believed that when the bells rang a piece of ice cream cone LITERALLY changed into the body and blood of their founder? And that they should tuck in with gusto?) certainly tried to tell me how and what to think ..along with such nonsense that my father couldnt possibly go to heaven because he was an Anglican…and this was 1972 not 1872….

    Plus ca meme chose and all that….they have just got more cunning about the delivery of the message

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  138. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Harriet: forget about MS…please do tell us how you make the lives of someone with Motor Neurone Disease “as good as those who…can cope” Do you actually know anything about MND ?….if not, please do Google it then come back and enlighten us…

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  139. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    Harriet

    The case for allowing those who want death with dignity is so compelling that only a religious zealot could possibly be against it.

    And please, since when has this been an issue of left v right?, it is about what is right and what is wrong.

    Allowing ourselves to be influenced by a work of fiction is simply ridiculous in todays modern world.

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  140. renderer (54 comments) says:

    kowtow was bought up as a catholic and educated in primary years by nuns. as close to brain washng as you will get.

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  141. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    DG
    Your disrespectful tone does you no credit. .

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  142. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Fletch: I dont know if you are being sarcastic or just dont know what you are talking about…Were you aware that in Catholicism having a wet dream is a sin that needs confessing FFS? Either that or the guys on the other side of the grille with the little black curtain enjoyed hearing about it…

    And I wonder why, if you ever lost your place in the ritual of confession, the prompt from behind the curtain was ALWAYS “Have you had any rude or impure thoughts”? Even if you hadnt yet got to the bet about how many weeks it was since your last confession…

    Did anyone else find that?

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  143. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    renderer

    As you have bRought up education,the correct spelling is brought not bought as in the verb to buy.

    And don’t talk about what you don’t know ie my education.

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  144. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    in Catholicism having a wet dream is a sin that needs confessing FFS?

    Not at all.
    Nocturnal emissions are the male body’s natural way of releasing the buildup of seminal fluid and entirely involuntary; although masturbation is another matter entirely.

    And no, no priest has ever prompted me about impure thoughts in the confessional. Not ever, that I can recall.

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  145. renderer (54 comments) says:

    DG the confession bit brings back memories

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  146. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    kowtow: That’ll be because far from “respecting” the world’s biggest cult, I despise it…and it’s got even more dishonest since I wised up at about age 13…..

    At least back in the day the priests told it as they saw it… contraception was always a sin, period. (pardon the pun)…Now, because the Church in western countries knows it would have no female adherents if they pushed that line, it’s “If you talk to God and you and he agree, then using contraception is not a sin”….

    And I am supposed to respect THAT? But hey, if you want to keep believing what some former member of the Hitler Youth issues from Party Central, you go for it my son….(again…)

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  147. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    DG, contraception is still a sin, apart from natural family planning.
    If a priest is saying otherwise, then he is wrong and not following Church teaching.

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  148. Leaping Jimmy (16,085 comments) says:

    The case for allowing those who want death with dignity is so compelling that only a religious zealot could possibly be against it.

    BB you’re so full of it. I’m a religious zealot and I’m not against it.

    However I do predict that as the baby boomers get older and start to consume almost the entire GDP with their health care and superannuation costs that every budget from here on in looks as if its been hit by a plague of locusts before any other spending even begins to germinate, that to the poor old Generation X and Y people, l think there will be an increasing desire not just to approve such measure but to encourage them, even though we’re talking about their parents.

    It’s just depending where one is on the generation scale, one should be aware and plan accordingly.

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  149. renderer (54 comments) says:

    kowtow was actually talking about MY education. the fact there was a spellng error points more to the fact that more tme was spent ramming a bloody fairy story down my throat than teaching readin writin and rithmetic

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  150. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Fletch: I am not being insulting, but how old are you? My last indoctrination session was about 1973, so I may be a bit rusty on just what is an isnt sinful these days..(Lucia was most helpful on that score a couple of weeks ago)..

    but I can assure you that at Edmund Campion College in 1972, we were told “night losses” as they were quaintly called, were sinful….it may have even been by the former Bro. Bede Hampton, currently serving time for fiddling with boys in Masterton….cant remember if it occurred before or after he was at our school…Suffice it to say the reunion held last February led to some catharsis for some of my former classmates…all aged past 50…

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  151. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    DG

    I think you’ve just fallen for Godwin there mate.

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  152. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    ps, confession is good for the soul and wellbeing of a person whether you believe God forgives sins (I do) in the sacrament or not.

    The secular version of confession is going to see a psychiatrist, so even the non-religious world recognizes the value in getting things off one’s chest, or telling your troubles to another – and in seeking forgiveness and understanding.

    They don’t like the idea of the religious part, but recognize it’s need anyway.

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  153. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    Those living in Auckland may have seen in this morning’s “Herald on Sunday” an article about the persecution of gays in Uganda. The article notes that a newspaper had published the names and addresses of 100 gay men, and had urged people to kill them. Legislation was contemplated (although not pursued, thanks to international outrage) which was referred to as the “Kill the Gays Bill”.

    What most depressed me is that the article referred to Uganda as a Christian country. It also referred to the execution of gays in Iran, an Islamic country.

    Of course, New Zealand itself is not many years away from being intolerant of gay and lesbian people, and sadly fundamentalist Christians are often the most intolerant in this area. And yet there is no record in the Bible that either Jesus or any of the Old Testament prophets ever made any reference at all to same-sex relations. And while the Holiness Code in Leviticus clearly does condemn same-sex relations, that Code also forbids eating meat containing blood or wearing garments made of two types of fibre, instructions which nobody today takes seriously at all.

    It is a huge tragedy that some of those who follow Jesus most diligently remain among the most intolerant people in the community when it comes to same-sex relations.

    - Don Brash

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  154. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    David Garrett,

    Contraception use is still a sin, it’s just that many priests have been in rebellion against some aspects of the Faith, and therefore are a bit wishy washy with the whole thing.

    Still a sin. OK? A mortal one at that.

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  155. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    renderer
    they mustn’t have taught you about lying. you were referring to my education,read your own post.
    and don’t blame others for your short comings.

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  156. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    “DG, contraception is still a sin, apart from natural family planning.”

    Lol..and that works really well.

    The late Christopher Hitchens was right when he said that the only true way to give females equality in this world was to allow them to be in charge of their reproductive cycle.

    Having sick cults like the Catholic church (as David Garret says, led by a former member of the Hitler youth) tell females that they are not allowed to control how many children they have is denying them the right to partake equally in society.

    BTW, did Lucia ever explain the Vaticans disgusting support for the post WW2 “rat lines”?, I wonder if the former member of the Hitler youth will ever get around to explaining or apologising for that.

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  157. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    DG, I am over 40 :)

    I am of the understanding, that to sin you must do so with your will. Anything involuntary, or out of your control is not a sin.

    CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

    I do not even see how it could be venial sin.

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  158. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Big Bruve #

    “..Allowing ourselves to be influenced by a work of fiction is simply ridiculous in todays modern world…”

    You idiot.

    “The science and religion debate is silly as each is entirely different.Religion is a belief syatem and science is about the gathering of facts.And that is why we teach our children to pray and not gather facts about the existance of God.” -Irving Kristol.

    A bit like ‘love’ big bruv – you can’t prove it’s existance at all – least of all in a petri dish.People just believe in it AND try to PROOVE it !

    Let’s fuck that off from modern society too eh ?

    DG #

    please do tell us how you make the lives of someone with Motor Neurone Disease “as good as those who…can cope” Do you actually know anything about MND ?….if not, please do Google it then come back and enlighten us…

    So get to my point – where is Street and the doctors going to draw the line – the left or right of things ?

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  159. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    Big Bruv,

    The Vatican did not support ratlines. There was one priest and a bishop involved in a major way, but a blind eye was turned to them by the West so that could run their own major ratline. That book that I was telling you about a few weeks back goes into all the sordid details.

    David Garret,

    Wet dreams, or any dreams are not sinful because you are not consciously in control. The brother who told you they were sinful was wrong.

    Edited to add: I see Fletch has got a better explanation above.

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  160. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    BB: (Greetings to myself sir…)

    I’ll play that one…please do tell us Lucia…firstly do you acknowledge that Pope Pius XII ( aka “Hitler’s Pope) was complicit in getting high end Nazi war criminals out of Europe at the end of WW II?

    If you do, how do you justify it? God would sort it all out in judgment day? I think Charles Bronson had a similiar philosophy ..

    (“Kill ‘em all and let God sort it out”)

    Edit: I see you have already answered Lucia, with a denial that the then Head Sharang knew anything about it….I seem to remember David Irving the historian getting locked up for pointing out that no documentary evidence linked Adolf with the final solution either…

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  161. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    “DG, contraception is still a sin, apart from natural family planning.”

    Lol..and that works really well.

    bb, actually it works as well as medical contraceptive methods if followed.

    Long-Term Effectiveness of New Family Planning Method Shown in Study

    ScienceDaily (Sep. 20, 2011) — A simple-to-use, fertility-awareness based method of family planning developed by researchers from the Institute for Reproductive Health at Georgetown University Medical Center so effectively meets the needs of users that they continue to rely on it for years.

    [...]

    The Standards Days Method was established as an effective short-term (one year) family planning method in a study published in 2002. In this earlier study, of which Jennings was the principal investigator, the Standard Days Method was found to be more than 95 percent effective at avoiding pregnancy, with a failure rate of less than 5 percent. This effectiveness rate is higher than other use-directed methods such as diaphragm or condom.

    James N. Gribble, Sc.D. of the Population Reference Bureau and senior author of the 2011 paper, says their results demonstrate that effectiveness continues throughout the second and third years of use.

    “Family planning enables women to have the desired number of children and to space and time births. Almost all the 2011 study participants had children, often with at least one child younger than two years old, before they began to use the Standard Days Method,” he says. “Yet few of the study participants had unplanned pregnancy over the three-year period of the study due to the method’s very high effectiveness.”

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm

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  162. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    big bigot
    another godwinner.
    how could this pope have had anything alledged to do with the vtican in the ’50,s?

    As people who claim to love freedom you should sympathise with Ratzinger,By law all yoth were required to be mmebers.His family were not nazis.

    DG and big bigot bringing that up proves their small minded angry bigotry as they refuse to acknowledge facts.

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  163. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    Ratlines? Why only the Vatican held to account?
    the Americans and soviets were involved in smuggling nazis. Can we see the same level of vitriol for them too? No, never mentioned, only the Papists. Therefore it’s bigotry.

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  164. big bruv (13,548 comments) says:

    Kowtow

    Can you use the words “facts” and “Catholic church” in the same sentence without falling about in fits of laughter?

    David Garrett

    I see you have the religious bigots sorted, I will retire for the evening as I have to work again in the morning.

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  165. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    David Garrett,

    No, I do not acknowledge anything of the sort of Pope Pius XII.

    There are many people who want to smear a good man’s name, which is easy to do when idiots far removed from WWII will believe anything.

    I would recommend this book for your education: Hitler, the War, and the Pope. It categorically refutes all smears and lies to date.

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  166. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    C’mon Garret answer my question -

    Where is Street and the doctors going to draw the line – the left or right of things ?

    I bet it will be where the ‘compassion’ ends…by the public service run health system…eh ?

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  167. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Kowtow: Oh dear…I will go slowly…firstly, while it may be true that all young Germans were required to be members of the Hitler Youth, not all were…just as not all Jews meekly submitted to wearing the Star…

    But that’s not really the point…how is pointing out the utter inconsistency between doctrine and action in the current head of the Church evidence of “small minded angry bigotry”??

    And so far as whoever else was running “ratlines”, the difference is that the OSS and certainly the KGB or its forerunner were not at the same time haranguing poor peasants about their pathetic sins, and demanding obeisance on pain of eternal damnation if they refused…It’s a bit like saying the Capone mob knocked off those who didn’t toe the line, so what was wrong with the Inquisition doing the same thing?

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  168. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    Lucia, thanks for pointing in the direction of that book last time. I bought and downloaded it. Am in the process of reading now.

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  169. renderer (54 comments) says:

    I see the author of the book is an advisor to the Holy See’s delegation to the United Nations. This would make him totally unbiased

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  170. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    DG, the “Hitler Youth” though did not always have the meaning it does for us now, surely? It was more like the Boy Scouts before Hitler was recognized for what he was.
    According to wiki –

    Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth—as membership was required by law for all 14-year-old German boys after December 1939[10]—but was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings, according to his brother.[11]

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  171. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Harriet: I haven’t a clue where Street will “draw the line”….that’s not the issue…the issue is people like you demanding that those suffering horrible deaths go through the script to the very end because that’s how YOU think the end of life should happen…

    Lucia: Allow me to recommend “Hitlers Pope”…can’t remember the author, and can’t be bothered looking for it in my library…And the difference my dear is while I might very well read your recommended text, I’ll bet a jar full of unconsecrated hosts you wouldn’t dream of reading mine!

    Fletch: Why was he so unenthusiastic if it was just like the Boy Scouts? Didnt he like camping?

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  172. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    I see the author of the book is an advisor to the Holy See’s delegation to the United Nations. This would make him totally unbiased

    The author is Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and the Mississippi Defense Lawyers Association Professor of Law at the University of Mississippi School of Law. He approaches the book as a lawyer would argue the case in court.
    From one of the reviews of the book –

    Professor Rychlak teaches trial law at the Law School, and approaches the accusations against Pope Pius XII as a trial lawyer. I have read many books on Pius XII, and this is by far the most dispassionate in laying out the context, relevant facts, accusations, and evidence pro- and con-. The book is highly engaging because filled with so many little known facts. The research has been prodigious. Yet the presentation is as down-to-earth as it would have to be in a courtroom

    It is not just the opinion of one man, but is backed up my meticulous cited facts.

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  173. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Hey Garrett,

    The Catholic Church is relatively benign – there’s nothing to be scared of.

    You look stupid picking that fight !

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  174. Lucia Maria (2,239 comments) says:

    David Garrett,

    This book refutes Hitler’s Pope. Hitler’s Pope no longer has any credibility, except to people who don’t keep up with times.

    Fletch,

    Cool. Let me know what you think… Maybe even write a review for our blog?

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  175. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Lucia: Tell you what…you promise to read it, and I’ll send you my copy of “Hitler’s Pope” (I know you wouldn’t break a promise because that would be sinful)…In return, if you send me your tome, I promise to read IT…we can have it out on here a couple of weeks after we have both finished our homework…

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  176. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    Lucia: Allow me to recommend “Hitlers Pope”

    DG, the book Lucia recommend dismantles “Hitler’s Pope” piece by piece.

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  177. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    DG
    No the kgb were only shooting peasants.

    Hitlers Pope… I go with Golda Meir, look up what she said on the occasion of his death.

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  178. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    “The Catholic Church is relatively benign” Really? An organization that tells some poor guilt ridden woman who lives in a cardboard shack in Mexico City along with her seven (surviving) kids that she musn’t use contraception to prevent any more misery is “benign” ??

    You clearly use a different dictionary from mine…Are you female btw? One never knows with these silly nicks….

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  179. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    This is what some of the Jews said of Pius –

    * Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli: “What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts….Priests and even prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism. Volumes could be written on the multiform works of Pius XII and the countless priests, religious and laity who stood with him throughout the world during the war. No hero, in all of history, was more militant, more fought against, none more heroic, than Pius XII in pursuing the works of true charity…and thus on behalf of all the people of God.”

    *Grand Rabbi of Jerusalem, Dr. Isaac Herzog (February 29, 1944): “The people of Israel will never forget what his Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history. Which is living proof of divine Providence in this world.”

    *Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, (April 7, 1944): “It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the Supreme Pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews….The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance.”

    *Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz (Summer Issue 1964 of Conservative Judaism): “Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.”

    *Chief Rabbi of Rome, Elio Toaff (after Rabbi Zolli’s conversion): More than anyone else, we have had the opportunity to appreciate the great kindness, filled with compassion and magnanimity that the Pope displayed during the terrible years of persecution and error.”

    *Albert Einstein (December 1940 edition of Time): “Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then, I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they like the universities were silenced in a few short weeks… Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had had the courage and intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I had once despised I now praise unreservedly.” (After the war Einstein wrote, “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty.”)

    *Golda Meir, Israel’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, representative to the United Nations (first delegate to react to Pius XII’s death), later Prime Minister of Israel; “We share with the grief of the world over the death of his Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace.”

    *Dr. Nahum Goldmann, President of the World’s Jewish Congress: “With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history.”

    *Former Israeli diplomat, scholar and Orthodox Rabbi, Pinchas Lapide: “The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of 850,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands. Then Pius XII deserves the forest in the Judean hills which kindly people in Israel proposed for him in October 1958. A memorial forest like those planned for Winston Churchill, King Peter of Yugoslavia and Count Bernadotte of Sweden, with 86,000 trees. (Besides the honor to Pius, the trees honored nuncios, including Cardinal Roncalli (later Pope John XXIII) of Istanbul who played a major humanitarian role in saving Jews.)

    * Leonard Bernstein: Conducting in New York’s Carnegie Hall, he learned of Pius XII’s death and paid personal tribute to the Pontiff responsible for saving the lives of thousands of Jews by tapping his baton for a moment of silence.

    *Leo Kubitsky, Secretary-General of the world Jewish Congress presented a donation of two million liras (present value over a million dollars) on behalf of grateful Jews.

    *Jeno Levae, Historian and only foreign Jew invited as an expert at Adolph Eichmann’s trial, who spoke at the Auschwitz trial in 1964: “From that day on, acting in accordance with the instruction of the Holy See and always in the name of Pius XII, the Nuncio never ceased from intervening against the disposition concerning Jews, and the inhuman character of the anti-Jewish legislation.”

    *Dr. Joseph L. Lichten, Polish diplomat and director of the International Affairs Department of the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai Brith: “What is the case for him? That in relation to the insane behavior of the Nazis from overlords to self-styled cogs like Eichmann, he did everything possible to save lives and alleviate suffering among the Jews; that a formal statement would have provoked the Nazis to brutal retaliation and would substantially have thwarted further Catholic action on behalf of the Jews”.

    *Moshe Sharrett: The former Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister of Israel visited Pius XII “to thank the Catholic Church for what it did to save Jews in all parts of the world.” Rabbis of the United States, Rumanian, Italian and Hungarian Jewish communities went to Rome or sent messages thanking him for his efforts.

    *Jacob Philip Rudin, President of the Central Conference of American Rabbis: “His sympathy for all, his wise social vision and his extreme understanding made him a prophetic voice in the service of justice everywhere. May his memory be a blessing for the life of the Roman Catholic Church and the World.”

    * Antonio Gaspari, who authored “The Jews, Pius XII, and the Black Legend”, chronicled the Nazi-fascist actions in Rome with testimonies from Jews who were saved by Pius requesting assistance from Religious (Over 150 Church institutions in and around Rome helped Italian Jews.)

    *Martin Tagliacozzo, the leading authority on Roman Jews in the Holocaust: “I have a folder on my table in Israel entitled ‘Calumnies Against Pius XII.’…without him, many of our own would not be alive.”

    *Sir Martin Gilbert: The noted British historian and a Jew, stated that Pius deserved thanks not blame.

    *Richard Breitman, authorized by the United States Government to study World War II’s secret espionage documents, the only historian allowed to do so, observed they proved the extent to which Hitler distrusted the Holy See because it hid Jews.

    *London’s “Jewish Chronicle”: “Before during and after the Second World War, he tried to carry a message of peace. Confronting the monstrous cruelties of Nazism, Fascism and Communism, he continually proclaimed the virtues of humanity and compassion.”

    *Dr. Joseph Nathan, who represented the Hebrew Commission: “Above all, we acknowledge the supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognized as their brothers and with great abnegation, hastened to help them, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed.”

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  180. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    Some of the Jewish organizations that praised Pope Pius XII at the time of his death for saving Jewish lives during the horror of the Nazi Holocaust were:
    + The World Jewish Congress
    + The American Jewish Committee
    + The American Jewish Congress
    + The Anti-Defamation League
    + The Central Conference of American Rabbis
    + The National Conference of Christians and Jews
    + The National Council of Jewish Women.
    + The New York Board of Rabbis
    + The Rabbinical Council of America
    + The Synagogue Council of America

    No serious scholar contests the evidence that Pius XII took direct and indirect measures to save Jews from the Nazi death machine.

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  181. David Garrett (6,712 comments) says:

    Fletch: The Communist Manifesto dismantles capitalism “piece by piece”…So what? You off to Cuba anytime soon?

    As someone else pointed out, the crucial thing is not just the argument, but who’s doing the arguing…and the evidence they cite in support…

    Lucia/Fletch: Have either of you actually READ Hitler’s Pope? Didn’t think so…

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  182. Fletch (6,126 comments) says:

    Hitler’s Pope, a 1999 book by John Cornwall, has been thoroughly debunked as anti-religious propaganda — not least, by the author of the book himself. The thesis of Cornwall’s book is that Pope Pius XII, who was the Catholic pontiff from 1939 until 1958, was anti-Semitic and a supporter of Adolf Hitler.

    The “Hitler’s Pope” meme took off, despite attempts at telling the truth. In a 1999 piece in Newsweek, religion writer Kenneth Woodward noted that “errors of fact and ignorance appear on almost every page” of the book. Cornwall, notes Woodward, “ignores the contrary evidence in the books cited in his own bibliography.” Woodward was followed by Rabbi David Dalin’s The Myth of Hitler’s Pope. That was followed by Michael Burleigh’s Sacred Causes. Both books demolished Cornwall’s thesis.

    In 2004 Hitler’s Pope author John Cornwall himself admitted he had been wrong. “I would now argue,” he said, “in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler’s Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war.”

    So, why would I want to read a book that even it’s author says he doesn’t agree with now?

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  183. kowtow (7,914 comments) says:

    You know what? All this has been said a hundred times but these guys chose to believe the anti Vatican lies.That’s why I say thy’re bigots. It’s not about education .It’s about prejudice hate and mockery.

    There is alot of mockery and it;schildish. Look at how some people were trying to swing it away from uno who.
    But there’s a hard core of mockers who cn’t seem to help themselves and drop very quickly to that level.

    If it’s not phil it’s the catholics, it gets so tiring.

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  184. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    The Catholic Church says more than that in Mexico. To others than just the poor.

    So yes…it is benign…because that’s all they do…..other than providing resources to help the poor in areas of health, education and other social services.

    The swiss guards arn’t stationed in Mexico.

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  185. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    kowtow.

    Well said.

    I didn’t bring up religion at all in my arguement – but what I said was immediatly dismissed as religious based, by both of them.

    Then when I called Garrett out on where the line should then be drawn – he wasn’t even scientific about it – but stated instead ‘…..the issue is people like you demanding that those suffering horrible deaths go through the script to the very end because that’s how YOU think the end of life should happen…’

    Those ‘suffering horrible deaths’ –

    WTF ? Suffering 6 months, 1yr, 2yrs out from when they actually die is death ?

    Nazi !

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  186. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    kowtow.

    Well said.

    I didn’t bring up religion at all in my arguement – but what I said was immediatly dismissed as religious based, by both of them.

    Then when I called Garrett out on where the line should then be drawn – he wasn’t even scientific about it – but stated instead ‘…..the issue is people like you demanding that those suffering horrible deaths go through the script to the very end because that’s how YOU think the end of life should happen…’

    Those ‘suffering horrible deaths’ ?

    Death ain’t horrible -if infact it is horrible- until the very last few days.We are ALL dying.

    This is a case about how people are LIVING life and at what point should their lives be deemed ‘unliveable’ and by WHOM!

    I’m not demanding anything or preaching religion but just asking in this modern day “Where scientificly, should the line be drawn and by whom, about life being ‘unlivable’ ?”

    It’s a logical fucken question that needs to have a logical answer – otherwise the bill doesn’t go through !

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  187. Longknives (4,671 comments) says:

    A sadly common misconception held about Catholics these days is that we are all fundamentalist ‘loony tunes’…
    I’m proud to call myself a Catholic- Yet I am a hard drinker who (thank Christ) uses contraception, supports the right to die with dignity and I have no problem with Abortion.

    That well and truly fucks all your stereotypes doesn’t it?

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  188. Longknives (4,671 comments) says:

    Oh yeah- and I reckon you are all just jealous because we got to go on ‘religious retreat’ camps with insanely dirty Catholic girls at High School….

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  189. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    Don’t worry Longknives, being a drunk, practitioner of safe sex, a (under the current law) murderer, or someone who has his girlfriend get an abortion is absolutely fine with Andrei, Lucia Maria, etc. Because you called yourself a Catholic. You might as well go ahead and rape a few little kids as well as that would be perfectly fine as well since Christ has washed away all your sins with his blood (who’d have thought, using blood instead of washing powder). If you were a ‘heathen’ (as Leaping Jimmy likes to call us), on the other hand, you will be condemned to eternal torture since you would be the homosexual endorsing scum of the Earth.

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  190. Viking2 (11,244 comments) says:

    As we always suspected Ministers or their lackeys were involved in Dotcoms case well before the police were bullied into submission and carried out there outrageous raid.

    PM’s office part of shutdown on Dotcom tip of
    The Prime Minister’s office was involved in shutting down information showing one government department tipping off another over FBI interest in internet magnate Kim Dotcom long before he was arrested.

    Emails released under the Official Information Act show staff at the Department of Labour took advice from “the PM’s office” before dodging questions on a leaked email.

    The email trail, released by the department under the Official Information Act, showed its media team “ignored” calls and deliberately delayed responding.

    Documents returned by the department revealed it had consulted “the PM’s office” on the issue.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816772

    No doubt there will be more.
    Seems to me the PM needs a clean out od all those highly paid media people and should replace them with a couple with some integrity and street smarts.

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