“Labour MP clueless on minimum wage price tag”

July 31st, 2012 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Labour MP has admitted he doesn’t know how much it will cost employers if the is raised to $15 an hour, despite sponsoring a bill to do just that.

Of course not. Why worry about the cost!

I supported the Mondayisation bill as the impact on wages was minimal – around 0.2%, and it was standardising the practice of Mondayisation. An 11% increase in the minimum wage though is exponentially larger, and is calculated to cost around 6,000 jobs. That is too much in one go.

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207 Responses to ““Labour MP clueless on minimum wage price tag””

  1. MikeG (425 comments) says:

    PM clueless on where money for loyalty bonus will come from

    “Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister) : … The Budget does set out the returns and costs from the mixed-ownership programme. Ministers have since made the decision in principle to offer a loyalty bonus. We are taking advice on how to treat this in the Government’s books—for example, whether we need to make a separate appropriation for it.”

    Why worry about whether we need to make a separate appropriation for it? This guy is a supposed financial whizz, but is looking more and more like Rob Muldoon. At least David Clark isn’t a member of cabinet.

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  2. seanmaitland (500 comments) says:

    The idiot voters who support this all think it is a silver bullet – they say “If I was on $15 an hour things would be sweet” – and don’t realize that the cost of everything will increase, and that there is a chance they’ll lose their jobs. And then when there is inflation of everything as a result, they will start whinging again about how the minimum wage should be $20.

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  3. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    MikeG, nice try. The PM taking specialist advice on a subject matter he needs advice on. Wow, the world is crumbling down around our ears.

    Far worse than proposing / supporting a policy that you really dont understand and havent costed, with no idea of the flow on impact.

    Yeah, fucking JK eh, mans a dweeb. LOL, get a grip.

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  4. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    Clark has come up with a number on expected costs now – $427m – but it’s not clear what that includes and what it doesn’t. He hasn’t responded yet to a request for clarification.

    Here are some of his other explanations:

    – Increasing the minimum wage to $15 per hour would ensure hard-working families could put healthy food on the table.
    – A higher minimum wage encourages employers to engage in industries with high productivity. It means employers can’t get wealthy off the back of cheap labour.
    – An economist could be eligible for a Nobel prize if he or she could establish a direct link between putting up the minimum wage and increasing unemployment.
    – The proposed change will not affect most employers and smart employers who already pay a living wage will be better off as it will stop less scrupulous firms undercutting them.

    David Clark: more (or less) on the minimum wage.

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  5. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    This guy is a dreamer if he thinks it wont affect most employers. “Most” of NZ employers are small businesses, employing 20 or less workers. And unfortunately a significant number of these are earning between the current minimum wage and $16.

    But of course if you raise the price floor to $16, it starts the bracket creep. Everyone earning $16 will now be ‘minimum wage’ and because they are more productive than a minimum wage worker these have to go up.
    So I have four choices:
    1. pay the increase in wages out of my own pocket (direct cost on me)
    2. increase my prices (direct cost to my customers)
    3. pressure my suppliers to reduce costs (direct cost to my business partners)
    4. reduce staff volumes/hours (direct cost to my employees)

    Number 3 is unlikely, as they will be feeling their own wage cost pressures, and their suppliers costs. So the end result is likely to be a combination of 1, 2 & 4.

    The actual cost is higher in the end, because the demand created by increased earnings across NZ will be insufficient to compensate for the reduction in demand caused by higher prices.

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  6. wikiriwhis business (4,016 comments) says:

    When wages go up prices automatically go up

    Therefore wages need to go down so prices are forced down

    This is the only way the market can be disciplined.

    Business does not understand when people have more money they spend it. Business won’t let consumers amass wealth and spend it in their local economies.

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  7. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    An 11% increase in the minimum wage though is exponentially larger, and is calculated to cost around 6,000 jobs. That is too much in one go.

    That is not too much in one go, it’s completely unnecessary, as are legislated minimum wages. These are effectively set by the level of our unemployment benefits.

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  8. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    If you have to pay someone under $15 an hour, I would question if you should be in business at all. You can’t live on $13.50 an hour in NZ, so people move to Australia if they can.

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  9. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    As others have noted, it’s not just the minimum wage that will be affected. All my 40+ staff earn more than the MW; some substantially more. But if the MW goes up to $15/hr, then as a good employer I will be honour-bound to give a pay rise to all of my staff, based on the percentage increase in the MW. Otherwise there is no relativity between jobs, and qualifications, merit, attitude and performance pay go out the window.

    If the MW went up overnight to $15/hour, the cost to my business would be somewhere in the region of $150k per annum. We simply don’t have that kind of slack in the business to pay increases of that amount, so we would have to make savings. Wages and salaries are our single biggest budget cost, so there’s every likelihood that jobs would go. Who wins then?

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  10. KiwiGreg (3,255 comments) says:

    You should ban those cheap arse employers Hamnida, just like those pokie machine fuckers.

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  11. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    clearly hamnida has never been in business or ever had to actually value work, which means hes probably a public servant.

    there are plenty of jobs worth less than $13.50 an hour.

    i would not value someone doing my scanning and filing at much more than $10 an hour, and would really only hire a student or teenager to do it. however i am not allowed to pay what the job is worth, so the job does not exist, and i and my practice manager absorb the work into our normal day.

    you can live on $13.50 an hour if you need to, its called discipline and only a whiny lefty would demand that others just give them more money with no reciprocity in terms of production. i would question the person who stays on a min wage job for more than a year, what are they doing to upskill themselves to make themself attractive to employers at higher paying jobs?

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  12. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    Grendel @ 11.51am
    +1

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  13. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Klakky’s $15 minimum is in fact far more than $18 when to the base cost holidays 8%, ACC 3%, Sick 2%, Kiwisaver3-4%, and Stat Hols 2%, PLUS admin costs, are added.
    Did someone say this clucker has passed some theoreticals in economics?
    DUMB!

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  14. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    And how much is the Christchurch rebuild costing the government? Nobody knows but that’s not stopping the government from going ahead with the rebuild. Try to take your eye patch off.

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  15. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    ross69

    Good point. Christchurch should pay for itself.

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  16. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    No mention of the 600 odd complaints about companies not meeting their minimum wage obligations. Presumably DPF thinks it’s OK that some companies treat their workers like dirt and pay below the minimum wage.

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  17. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    ross69

    That’s two stupid and irrelevant comments. Did you actually bother reading the post to find out what it was about?

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  18. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    those employees should quit and go somewhere else. of course one has to wonder why they agreed to work for less than minimum wage? maybe they realised that say $11 an hour is better than $0 an hour from having no work.

    no one corralled those workers and made them become employees, so why are they hanging around if they are being underpaid and treated like dirt? or what are the odds that as usual you are talking crap.

    your pathetic attempt to distract with the chch reference is utterly irrelevant. chch is being funded by the govt via tax taken from workers. the minimum wage mostly impacts on small businesses, you know private businesses.

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  19. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Davinci

    John Key has a “broad sense” of the Christchurch rebuild. I’m sure that David Clark has a similar broad sense. Mr Farrar expects Clark to know the exact figure for an increase in the minimum wage but apparently doesn’t have the same expectations of the PM. Should we be surprised?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/7381954/Govt-mum-on-Christchurch-rebuild-land-costs

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  20. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Hamfisted: “If you have to pay someone under $15 an hour, I would question if you should be in business at all….”

    This can only be uttered by an economic dunce.

    Do you actually think before you hit ‘Submit Comment’ or are you simply on a mission to prove to everyone that you are a total moron? Because on the second option – congratulations. Mission accomplished.

    I suspect you think a cure for everything would be to raise the Minimum Wage to $25.

    Oh, wait…..

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  21. Nookin (3,344 comments) says:

    “John Key has a “broad sense” of the Christchurch rebuild. I’m sure that David Clark has a similar broad sense. Mr Farrar expects Clark to know the exact figure for an increase in the minimum wage but apparently doesn’t have the same expectations of the PM. Should we be surprised?

    I think that there is a slight difference between having a “broad sense” of the cost of acquiring something like 840 properties from multiple vendors, particularly where the whole notion of “market value” has been knocked to hell and gone as a result of the earthquake damage on the one hand and measuring or estimating overall costs of moving the minimum wage by a measurable amount. I doubt whether Mr Clarke as even a remote idea of the follow-on implications.
    Key’s problem is that if the announces how much money he has set aside to cover the costs of acquisition, there will be those who measure their asking price to suit and there will be those who will hold out for more. I do not see it as a particularly smart move for example for the government to ask, openly, how many properties they can buy four $1,000,000,000.

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  22. Paulus (2,627 comments) says:

    Up the wage – reduce the workforce – easy
    Clark like Clark is a useless deadbeat – talk through your arse again.

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  23. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > those employees should quit and go somewhere else

    Presumably women who are beaten by their partners should just leave too. In other words, let’s blame the victim and give a free passs to the perpetrator.

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  24. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    You can’t live on $13.50 an hour in NZ

    That’s blanket nonsense. There are many possible scenarios, like
    – where you live (some parts of the country have much lower living costs than others)
    – who you live with (an 18 year old living at home with parents may have very low overheads)
    – if you own your own home and have little or no mortgage
    – retired people supplementing their super
    – the second income in a family supplementing
    – young people sharing a flat
    etc etc

    Many students get by on much less.

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  25. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    You can save half a million by the time you are 40 on $13.50 an hour. It is more than anyone needs, but less than everyone wants.

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  26. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    In other words, let’s blame the victim and give a free passs to the perpetrator.

    A window on the socialist mind: Employers are perpetrators and employees are victims.

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  27. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    ross69

    Nookin has largely covered my response at 12.43 pm.

    There are three further points. First, you’ve completely misrepresented the inference to be drawn from those comments from Key. It was perfectly clear that he had an indication of the likely order of cost as would be expected given that negotiations must take place over pricing. Second, the calculation of the impact of increasing the SMW, including the kick on effect from consequential increases for those above the SMW in order to maintain relativity, is capable of calculation from current economic and statistical data without the uncertainty of a bargaining process. Third Clark said he had no idea.

    So what the fuck is the relevance of your completely pointless posts other than allowing you to get some dirty water off your chest?

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  28. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Employers are perpetrators and employees are victims

    Yes, I know you’d like there to be no consequences for unscrupulous employers who flout the law, and I also know your contempt for workers.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/111855/thousands-'too-scared'-to-complain-about-wage

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  29. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > you’ve completely misrepresented the inference to be drawn from those comments from Key

    You’ve completely missed the point of my comment. Key doesn’t know the cost of the rebuild, any more than he knows how much the sale of state assets will bring in. He might have a rough idea, but he could be out by tens of millions of dollars.

    As an aside, the benefits of increasing the minimum wage are many and have been well-documented. I suggest you acquaint yourself with those benefits before commenting any further.

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  30. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    ah a press release from a union, with no real substance, theres Ross’s shock ‘proof’.

    If an employee agrees to a wage and the employer just starts paying less than that, that is and should be illegal and all the force of the law should be applied for breach of contract.

    but nonsense like being forced to work longer hours, or being forced into a job are rubbish. there are plenty of jobs out there, so get a new one.

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  31. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    Clark appears to be struggling with understanding business fundamentals – and he seems to dismiss Dunedin business and employer spokesmen as opposing politicians. Doesn’t look great for MP/business relations in his electorate.

    David Clark versus employers.

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  32. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    ross those ‘benefits’ are made up and are always at the expense of those jobs that disapear or never get created.

    becuase you cannot see the jobs that dont exist, morons like you seem to imply there is no negative impact. moron.

    well here is your proof. as an employer i would happily hire someone for $10 an hour to do filing, scanning, photocopying and general dog work. they would be treated well but the job is basic. after a year they would likely move on once they had enough skills and i would hire the next person who wants a leg up, or, by them freeing me and my more qualified staff up to do more productive work we might have made enough more money to pay them more.

    but becuase i would have to pay someone $13.50 an hour (actually at least 15 after holiday pay, kiwisaver etc) its not worth it, so the job does not exist.

    try paying wages out of your own pocket one day, and you might actually get an idea of what its like to value a job.

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  33. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Ah, I see, so he should have dusted off his crystal ball and at the very least had a QS cost the buildings that haven’t even been designed yet or the land that hasn’t even been purchased yet. So he could be out by tens of millions of dollars!! Wow, out of a bill of $10b plus?? Ever built a house ross? I mean seriously, do you have any idea at all?

    Fortunately, I don’t have to waste my time looking at some report written to justify a political conclusion because I live in the real world where people who actually own and run businesses and assume the concommittant financial risks and responsibilities respond to costs by making simple decisions such as: fuck it, I won’t hire that person.

    You should try it ross. Get out from behind your keyboard and put it all on the line to start and run your own business. Then pay some smelly deadshit who can’t even be bothered to turn up to work regularly $15+ an hour for doing some job that’s worth $10 an hour.

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  34. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    ross69,

    So the government is turning lawful and constructive citizens into criminals with draconian laws such as the minimum wage regulations.

    Are you proud of a government that makes it illegal to employ low skilled persons?

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  35. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Hamnida and Ross69 – why dont you and your socialist friends, Using YOUR money show us how easy it is to start up and run a businees doing all the things you think a business should do,
    -increase wages,
    -increase maternity leave,
    -give more holidays,
    -pay more council rates
    -employ the unemployable with no 90day no questions asked trial
    – employ more people
    -pay more taxes to support beneficearies
    – increased insurance costs
    – take the finanacial risks
    – work the hours required to get the business established for 2-3 years
    – etc etc.

    It amazes me how people who live off other peoples money such as, Career politicians, acedemics, public servents etc are so good at deciding how other peoples hard earned money should be distributed – and yet dont have the guts, desire, drive to get off thier arses and practice what they preach – and like I asked, show us how it can be done – lead the way especially the politicians who have made good money and investments to feather thier own nests. PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH

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  36. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    ross, youve outdone yourself:”Presumably women who are beaten by their partners should just leave too.”

    What, in your world they should stay? What a great idea. Youve obviously had nothing whatsoever to do with domestic violence. So, youre a typical whining theoretical socialist telling us what to do based on no real experience.

    Surprised font.

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  37. marcw (249 comments) says:

    @ ross69 1.05pm

    “Presumably women who are beaten by their partners should just leave too.”

    Umm… correct. How did we agree on something? Unbelievable.

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  38. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    $10 an hour, crazy stuff. I thought the debate had moved onto whether $13.50 was enough or not.

    Those advocating for $10 an hour (or even $13.50) should put their money where their mouth is and support a family on that income.

    I can’t see how a minimum wage of $13.50 closes the wage gap with Australia. Oh that’s right – National have now conceded that argument and sacked the Brash-led taskforce.

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  39. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    Yes, I know you’d like there to be no consequences for unscrupulous employers who flout the law, and I also know your contempt for workers.

    By “unscrupulous employers”, do you mean people like Matt McCarten from the Unite Union who withheld PAYE, Kiwisaver and Student Loan deductions taken from his employees over a period of 18 months between October 2007 and March 2009, a total of in excess of $134,000?

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  40. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock – Where is your evidence? Big claim to make. If it was true, I am sure the IRD would be speaking with him and Unite.

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  41. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    It is widely known and reported Hamnida, the IRD have been speaking with him.

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  42. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Sonny Blount – evidence? Maybe even a newspaper article?

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  43. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > I can’t see how a minimum wage of $13.50 closes the wage gap with Australia

    Well, it was impossible for John Key to pretend we could close the wage gap with Aussie after Bill English trumpeted low wages as giving NZ a competitive advantage! I just don’t know why the Tories try to pretend they’re a friend of workers…

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  44. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Those advocating for $10 an hour (or even $13.50) should put their money where their mouth is and support a family on that income.

    Why would you start a family if you are on the minimum wage?

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  45. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Tories, yuck.

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  46. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Hamnida – http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/5342791/IRD-chasing-Matt-McCarten-company

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  47. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    You may already have a family and end up on the minimum wage, or with no job at all.

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  48. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    “Tories, yuck”

    Socialists, expecting more than their fair share since for fucking ages

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  49. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    A higher minimum wage will of course take pressure off WFF and the welfare state. Those earning more in wages require less State assistance. I would’ve thought the Right would be delighted with such an outcome. Why can’t the Right at least adopt a consistent position?

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  50. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > “Tories, yuck”

    You don’t like Tories either? :)

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  51. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    What I have noticed on this blog is that right wingers and neolibs go around in circles with their arguments.

    Perhaps this is not surprising given their lower IQs.

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  52. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Uggh….. ^ lefttard idiots who have never been in business in their pampered lives….ignore.

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  53. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    I can’t see how a minimum wage of $13.50 closes the wage gap with Australia.

    What has that got to do with it? Surely if you believe the miminum wage is the appropriate mechanism to close the wage gap with Australia we should set it to $50ph?

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  54. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Why would you start a family if you are on the minimum wage?

    So you acknowledge that being on the minimum wage isn’t enough to support a family?

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  55. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    You may already have a family and end up on the minimum wage, or with no job at all.

    People with families should obviously look for higher paying work.

    Why should it be illegal to employ people without families?

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  56. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Ross- “Why can’t the Right at least adopt a consistent position?”

    One consistent each from the right and the left.

    Right – Create wealth and income
    Left – Spend it and demand more

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  57. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Cut the size of the state to the bone, sell-off the state liabilities and free taxpayers from the yoke of subsiding them…and cut taxes down to match…… more money in peoples pockets,far more productive market activity not choked by repressive regulation,more jobs created…..problems solved.

    So you acknowledge that being on the minimum wage isn’t enough to support a family?

    Probably not…but then there is no right to be able to raise a family at other peoples expense either…..so if you aren’t in a position to fund said family via your own efforts then don’t even think about having one…

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  58. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    ross69 (629) Says:
    July 31st, 2012 at 3:01 pm
    Why would you start a family if you are on the minimum wage?

    So you acknowledge that being on the minimum wage isn’t enough to support a family?

    1. It is an irrelevant argument

    2. No

    3. You can save $500,000 by the time you are 40 on the minimum wage, you can start a family then and support them quite comfortably on the minimum wage.

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  59. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Exactly what I mean – Right wing government and the economy is a shambles. Create wealth and income – what? By lowering the minimum wage?

    Not even logical policy.

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  60. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    You may already have a family and end up on the minimum wage, or with no job at all.

    Why would a person earning more than the minimum wage but with an insecure job and a family not have savings or income insurance?

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  61. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    @ Hamnida; where have you been hiding? The tax-dodging of Matt McCarten is both a matter of public record, and of much debate in forums such as this. In addition to the $134k Unite owed the IRD, McCarten’s own company Unite Social Services Limited was put into liquidation owing IRD $150,750, as per the Stuff story that Wayne91 has linked to at 2.54pm.

    So yes; it’s a big claim to make, but it is one that is easily substantiated. Especially damaging for McCarten was the liquidator’s report that there was “a failure to provide for taxation”, something which the IRD regards as an aggravating feature.

    McCarten’s carelessness with his taxes was in the period before and after the 2008 General Election. It would be easy to reach the conclusion that McCarten was more interested in pushing Unite’s political agenda accompanied by large amounts of money, rather than paying to IRD the money that he had deducted from his employees’ pay. I’d say that Matt McCarten definitely fits the bill as an “unscrupulous employer”; wouldn’t you?

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  62. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Hamnida (45) Says:
    July 31st, 2012 at 3:04 pm
    Exactly what I mean – Right wing government and the economy is a shambles. Create wealth and income – what? By lowering the minimum wage?

    Not even logical policy.

    Wealth is created in one way Hamnida. By increasing production.

    Increasing minimum wage decreases productivity. Removing minimum wages can increase productivity.

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  63. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > Wealth is created in one way Hamnida. By increasing production

    Really? So why don’t we sell fridges to eskimoes?

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  64. Doug (410 comments) says:

    Hamnida:

    No Right turn even had a Blog.

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2011/07/matt-mccarten-tax-cheat.html

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  65. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    I guess the same people who think McCarten is a tax cheat are the ones who don’t see the irony in Garrett supporting the three strikes legislation.

    So let’s get the facts straight – McCarten has no tax or fraud convictions, and the issue (if there is one) is not in the mainstream media. Garrett has multiple convictions, including identity theft.

    There is no way the IRD would let McCarten away with not paying PAYE.

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  66. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    A wage is a cost…..and the higher the cost of something the less you try to use of it…….get it Hamnida? If you artificially price labour above its actual market value then it won’t be taken on and instead machines or already employed workers will take up the slack.

    Watch and learn…..

    Edgar the Exploiter

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  67. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Doug – Well I guess we will see what the IRD investigation uncovers (if there is one).

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  68. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Minimum wage laws are theft.

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  69. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    > Wealth is created in one way Hamnida. By increasing production

    Really? So why don’t we sell fridges to eskimoes?

    This is a very good idea until such point as another activity becomes more productive. Such as selling wood to China. The best way to find the balance between these activities is through freedom.

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  70. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Ross: > Wealth is created in one way Hamnida. By increasing production

    Really? So why don’t we sell fridges to eskimoes?

    And Ross is the sort of lefty facktard who would support state subsidies to businesses to do just that to “create jobs” and “boost the NZ economy”……

    ….facepalm…

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  71. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Well I guess we will see what the IRD investigation uncovers (if there is one).

    it is well past that Hamnida, there is demand for payment.

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  72. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Hamnida (47) Says:

    There is no way the IRD would let McCarten away with not paying PAYE.

    Do you know how PAYE is collected and how non-payment is resolved?

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  73. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Sonny B – A basic understanding. The employer collects PAYE on behalf of the employee and forwards it to the IRD. Income tax is what the employee pays. PAYE is the term to describe how the employer transfers it to the IRD. I wouldn’t say I’m an accountant or tax expert, but know a little about the tax system.

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  74. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    I can answer that Sonny. He/she/it doesn’t have a fucking clue.

    He/she/it would also have no idea as to why McCarten structered his affairs that way. [Hint font] It wasn’t to maximise his tax obligations.

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  75. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Sonny B – “non-payment” I heard the IRD chases the employer for no PAYE return, while still demanding unpaid income tax from the employee.

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  76. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    @ Hamnida – apologies to DPF for link-whoring, but you will find the facts well established here:

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2011/07/questions-for-matt-mccarten.html

    McCarten has been paying off 18 months worth of unpaid PAYE off at $8k per month. In addition, IRD put his own company (McCarten was the sole director of Unite Social Services Ltd) into liquidation with debts to the IRD in excess of $150k.

    So I will repeat my question both for you and ross69; is Matt McCarten an “unscrupulous employer”?

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  77. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    KS, I can answer that one too. No, of course not.

    Unfortunately this slight hole in the revenue was brought about by his inexperience and pre-occupation with instructing the ghost writers of his Sunday column. He had no idea that when you collect money as agent for the Government, you should put it to one side so that it can then be paid instead of spending it. He knows better now and I’m sure that he would us to move on as he has no doubt done himself.

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  78. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Even if what you say is true, I doubt he is a bad employer.

    If what you say is true, he is bad with taxes.

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  79. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Hes a socialist parasite wanting to steal and spend money that doesn’t belong to him on things he values…so of course he’s “bad with taxes”…just not in the way you mean.

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  80. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Hamnida ‘Perhaps this is not surprising given their lower IQs’ well that statement really sums up the left. Nothing but insults and bullshit arguments. The only way they can win an argument is by getting nasty. Mallard is a hero of the left.

    So Hamnida do you think the minimum wage should be $20 an hour? If not then please explain why. Also do you have any experience running a business? If not then please explain how you have the ‘IQ’ to know there will not be negative consequences if the minimum wage is raised to $15 an hour during the worst recession ever seen (i.e. job losses). I mean there have been plenty of ppl on this post who run businesses and explain the consequences. What makes you think you are more qualified to argue this then them??

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  81. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Hamnida

    Get it through your thick fucking head. He spent money that didn’t below to him.

    What would your response be to the lawyer who spends money from a client trust account? You go to settle your house and find your money is gone, along with your lawyer to parts unknown. “Ooooh, nice lawyer, but just not good with other people’s money. Bit impulsive with his travel arrangements too.”??? [That was idiot font BTW]

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  82. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    LOL, “bad with taxes”

    Just like the SheBeast was “bad with the truth”

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  83. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Yes, I have run a business (three in fact).

    I don’t believe there should be a minimum wage, I think all New Zealanders should earn the same wage or salary.

    If there is a minimum wage, I would set it at a level to keep New Zealanders in New Zealand. I would also make sure it was enough to support a family on by working 40 hours a week.

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  84. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Or Garrett, “bad with dead babies and misquoting famous people”.

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  85. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    Even if what you say is true, I doubt he is a bad employer.

    So if your boss took money from you each week which should have been paid to the taxman on the 20th of the month following, then went off and spent it on something else, you’d cut him some slack, would you?

    Bear this in mind Hamnida; any of those Unite Union employees who were having money deducted for Kiwisaver have lost forever the interest that might have been gained on their deductions and the employer contributions over an 18-month period. That interest can never be recovered. If that was me doing that to one of my employees, the likes of McCarten would be beating my door down.

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  86. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    We seem to have the usual nonsense on the minimum wage. Empirical studies of the effects of the minimum wage are a bit mixed in their results, and possibly reflect the biases of various authors more than anything else.
    Everything else being equal, an increase in the minimum wage will have some negative effect on employment. The debate really needs to centre on the extent to which that actually happens, especially when only modest increases are contemplated. There are many other factors that play a part in creating or sustaining employment.
    I prefer to see the minimum wage as part of a set of mandatory conditions that support employment. These include health and safety laws, minimum employment standards and bargaining laws. One could argue that all of these things create contraints on employment, bit it is a trade-off that we choose to make in many situations.

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  87. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    I think all New Zealanders should earn the same wage or salary.

    Say what?

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  88. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    And Matt McCarten is “bad with taxes” the same way that Dr David Clark (getting back on-topic) is bad with numbers, and in the same way that the Yorkshire Ripper was bad with prostitutes…

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  89. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    … Guy Fawkes bad with fireworks …

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  90. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    hamnida, “I don’t believe there should be a minimum wage, I think all New Zealanders should earn the same wage or salary.”

    Youve been asleep for 100 years right – you missed the downfall of the USSR. Utopia died, and its stinking corpse is one of the most corrupt societies on the face of the planet, its doomed experiment with an idiotic version of a deeply flawed free market model ruined by criminals. Had they tried real capitalisim, the outcome might have been different.

    Do keep up, there’s a love.

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  91. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Yes, the same wage or salary. Total equality. An acknowledgement that New Zealanders are motivated by good not money. That you obtain higher qualifications to assist others, not yourself. That the proceeds of a successful business are spread amongst all who contributed to the profit. A society where every child has the same access to health and education regardless of parental wealth.

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  92. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    I have run a business (three in fact)…I think all New Zealanders should earn the same wage or salary.

    What happened to those three businesses? And did you live by your belief and pay everyone the same wage or salary (assuming those businesses had multiple employees of course)?

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  93. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    hmmokrightitis – I will keep it up. It is what I believe in.

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  94. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Yes, multiple employees. 15 – 25 per site, 60 in total. Wage range at the time $8.50 an hour to $50,000 per annum salary. It would have been better if everyone was on say $14 an hour. The free market meant middle managers wanted $50,000.

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  95. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “Yes, the same wage or salary. Total equality. An acknowledgement that New Zealanders are motivated by good not money. That you obtain higher qualifications to assist others, not yourself. That the proceeds of a successful business are spread amongst all who contributed to the profit. A society where every child has the same access to health and education regardless of parental wealth.”

    You really do not understand economics do you. That has to be one of the stupidist comments I have ever seen here.

    How old are you?

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  96. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Hamnida,

    So you’re saying you didn’t run your own businesses in line with what you profess to believe

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  97. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    … and have you initiated the process of trickledown yourself Hamnida – for example by giving away everything that you earn in excess of the minimum wage? Or are you not presently earning?

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  98. alex Masterley (1,517 comments) says:

    Pol Pot tried to set up a society along the lines that Hamnida suggests.
    It didn’t work.

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  99. Cunningham (844 comments) says:

    Hamnida you cannot be fucking serious. Everyone paid the same???? Jesus crist I cannot believe there are people out there who actually believe that sort of shit would work. So a doctor should be paid the same as a Labourer in your eyes?? bugger me.

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  100. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    Oh god, stop playing with the silly person, its just cruel.

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  101. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    Yes, the same wage or salary. Total equality. An acknowledgement that New Zealanders are motivated by good not money.

    There’s fundamental flaws with that.

    Laws of nature never have and never will operate on any basis of equality.

    There will never be anywhere near total equality of motivation, nor will there be anywhere near total equality of good – major factors in the failure of communist utopia.

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  102. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    I think all New Zealanders should earn the same wage or salary.

    Oh dear god. Hamnida supports misery.

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  103. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    The free market meant it was not possible to pay everyone the same in those businesses, as middle managers demanded more money or they would leave. The businesses were bought out by a new investor.

    I advocate for a society based on total equality, nothing like Pol Pot’s murderous regime.

    I currently earn a living wage.

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  104. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    How do you define a “living wage”?

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  105. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t call it a communist utopia, more of a socialist utopia. Hopefully we get there.

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  106. thedavincimode (6,759 comments) says:

    Lee01

    That has to be one of the stupidist comments I have ever seen here.

    Gracious acknowledgement from the outgoing champion.

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  107. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    “I advocate for a society based on total equality” is a totally impossible goal.

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  108. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t call it a communist utopia, more of a socialist utopia. Hopefully we get there.

    Why wait? Why don’t you export yourself to North Korea now?

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  109. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    “I advocate for a society based on total equality, nothing like Pol Pot’s murderous regime”

    What you fail to understand is that total equality is not possible. Everyone is different, and has different needs and goals. Thus the only way to try and create a totally equal society is through the brute force of state power. Thus the comparison with murderous communist regimes is appropriate.

    For your education:

    http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

    And if you are serious about learning economics:

    http://mises.org/etexts/EconReasoning.pdf

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  110. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Why on Earth would you want equality? You must be hellishly insecure.

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  111. OTGO (551 comments) says:

    Hamnida – for there to be rich people there must be poor people. It has always been like that and will always be like that. Wake up man! Are you a North Korean by any chance?

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  112. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    Why on Earth would you want equality?

    Because most of these people are not only insecure but envious, mediocre characters, without any talent.
    They aspire to equalise us all by applying the lowest common denominator. Misery willing to spread misery.

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  113. Zapper (1,021 comments) says:

    I almost feel sorry for the 14 year old Hamnida who has wandered in here and been ripped to shreds.

    My highlight from the thread though:

    thedavincimode @ 4:19pm. Brilliant.

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  114. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    There is one thing we will all be totally equal in – death.

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  115. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    Zapper:

    +1 :) Round of applause TDM, I literally lol’d

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  116. alex Masterley (1,517 comments) says:

    Hamnida,
    Are you old enough to be allowed to read “Animal Farm”?
    You should.

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  117. KiwiGreg (3,255 comments) says:

    Is Hamnida Scott Chris?

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  118. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Strange that a neolib would suggest Animal Farm. Maybe you should read it again.

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  119. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    A living wage = a wage you can live on.

    $13.50 an hour in NZ doesn’t cut it.

    I think you neolibs forget we live on a series of islands. Forcing people into poverty doesn’t make them go away. They are your neighbours and future employees.

    Deep down, most people are motivated by good, not profit. Let us stand as one, as equals working for common good.

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  120. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    I admire DPF for his blog and allowing freedom of speech, but question the wisdom around using David Garrett to write a column on justice. Why not get Max Bradford to write a piece on privatisation lowering power prices. Or Roger Douglas writing an article on how wealth has “trickled down” in NZ.

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  121. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    @ Hamnida – David Garrett may have skeletons in his closet, but he achieved more in half a term in Parliament than most of the time-servers there will achieve in their lifetimes. If even one life is saved because a criminal was kept in prison because of the Three Strikes law, then David Garrett will leave a more enduring legacy than any of us.

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  122. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    Or hamnida, hows about you write a piece for us on how this utopia of yours will come about. You know, your strategy document, your manifesto if you will.

    Hows it all going to pan out?

    Maybe a guest post from you? Im sure DPF will entertain the notion.

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  123. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Hamnida

    Kiwi 1. Works hard at school, goes onto University and obtains a worthwhile degree (not one that results in him being a social worker) he then spends the next 30 years working 50-60 hours a week along with raising a family and paying a shit load of taxes.
    Come his early 50’s he has a nice nest egg saved, his house is freehold and he has managed to buy himself a batch/cribb for holidays or weekends away.

    Kiwi 2. Fucks around at school, eventually leaves with no qualifications and ends up working in a series of dead end jobs with no real future. He makes no effort to better himself and along the way manages to pop out four or five kids. He pays no net tax yet he still finds it hard to make ends meet even with working for families. Come his mid fifties he is pissed off at what others have and what he does not have.

    Kiwi 3. Also fucks around at school, he also leaves with no qualifications and goes from one dead beat job to another until some time in his late 20’s he wakes up. At this stage he decides that there must be better things in life for him so he puts his head down and invests in himself. He works his arse off, he learns, he studies and he makes himself into a highly employable person. As a result of this he reaches his mid fifties in a far better financial state that he would have had he not changed his ways.

    Now Haminda, most Kiwis fall into one of those three groups….and you want all of them to earn the same wage?

    What you propose is fucking madness, only a complete moron or an idealogical youth would think that it is as simple as what you suggest. I suspect you are only a kid, one that has told a few lies here about the businesses you have owned but I am prepared to give you a pass on that. What I cannot forgive is how mind numbingly stupid your idea is, it has been tried in other places and failed miserably …what part of that do you not get?

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  124. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Well the offer is there. I have a manifesto. It doesn’t read like anything Roger Douglas has written. The man should be on trial for treason, totally destroyed NZ society. Lange should have been onto him much earlier.

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  125. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Big bruv – Kiwis two and three in what I propose would not be allowed to f-around. They must contribute to society. If they are not interested in academic study, they will need to find a trade or job.

    The batch point is interesting – why don’t New Zealanders share them? They sit mostly unused. Better Kiwis 1, 2 and 3 share the batch than have it unused for 80% of the year.

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  126. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Well I for one would happily give away everything I earn above the minimum wage, so that unemployed worthless eaters can sit around receiving the same minimum wage for doing sweet fuck all.

    In fact, I’m going to start right now. I’m sure everyone else who is as passionate as I am about supporting the lifestyles of unemployed worthless eaters will soon join in…

    Bring on the Hamnidan Utopia! :-)

    No, not really. :neutral:

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  127. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    And if they refuse or do a shit job hamnida, what then?

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  128. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Haminda

    Why would anybody want to share a batch with Kiwi 2?

    The bloke is a parasite and probably votes Labour or Green. You are suggesting that Kiwi 2 enjoys the fruits of the labour of others without doing anything for it.

    As for Sir Roger..the man was knighted for saving this country from the likes of you. Sadly he did not get to finish the job because of an obese fool with no nuts who fell in love.

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  129. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    My Kiwi 2 would have been forced to undertake education, further training, a trade or a job. Failing to contribute to society would not be an option.

    He would be allowed to use the batch whether he was earning $45,000 or $200,000 a year.

    I question your ethics around mocking the dead.

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  130. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    “A shit job” – do a different job better suited to them or further training and/or education.

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  131. Zapper (1,021 comments) says:

    “Failing to contribute to society would not be an option”.

    How will this be enforced?

    Do you think humans will strive without incentives? When you were at school, if you were told everyone got the same grade regardless of skill or effort, how hard would you try?

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  132. chris (647 comments) says:

    would have been forced to

    So your regime would be just as totalitarian as the ones that tried and failed in the past.

    Failing to contribute to society would not be an option.

    Or what? If they just can’t be assed working to the level of production expected of them then what?

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  133. chris (647 comments) says:

    Do you think humans will strive without incentives? When you were at school, if you were told everyone got the same grade regardless of skill or effort, how hard would you try?

    Most people wouldn’t. Why bother? You’re going to get the same wage regardless of what you do.

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  134. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Failing to contribute to society would not be an option.

    I’d be happy to cherry-pick THAT particular policy out of the Hamnida manifesto and run with it.

    In fact, I’m sure work-for-the-dole has been proposed more than once in my lifetime.

    But every time it has been shouted down, apparently it’s not fair to make able-bodied useless sacks of shit do any actual WORK for their free state money…

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  135. chris (647 comments) says:

    Take me, for example. I’m self-employed. I do web development and server support freelance for a very limited number of customers. I also have my own websites and projects that make up over half my income from selling advertising etc. If I was told I could only earn some maximum arbitrary amount of money, then guess what? I wouldn’t bother earning any money over that amount. Why bother?

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  136. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Why bother? – because you want to do well in life and contribute as much as you can to society.

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  137. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    The free market meant it was not possible to pay everyone the same in those businesses, as middle managers demanded more money or they would leave.

    It is not the free market as such Hamnida, but people’s expectations that proved that your utopia is not a viable proposition. The free market makes it easier for people to trade their skills, expertise and labour – it doesn’t drive their expectations that they should be rewarded according to the value they each bring; that is their appreciation of worth.

    Strange that a neolib would suggest Animal Farm. Maybe you should read it again.

    Given that the novel was about how the socialist utopia was actually no better than the fascist dictatorship it overthrew, I think perhaps you are the one who should be reading it again.

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  138. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Dole doesn’t make sense – you must contribute to society. If you can’t get a job, further education and training is required.

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  139. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Why bother? – because you want to do well in life and contribute as much as you can to society.

    Yeah, we all want to work our arses off so deadbeats don’t have to. :neutral:

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  140. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Haha – I read the last two comments from Hamnida and I am pretty sure we can out him now as Kim Jung-un commenting on Kiwiblog

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  141. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Dole doesn’t make sense – you must contribute to society. If you can’t get a job, further education and training is required.

    Now you’re talking! ;-)

    If you haven’t got a job, you can build the new prison and learn masonry welding or carpentry on the job. If you don’t want to work on the new prison, you can go IN the old one.

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  142. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Anyong bhudson.

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  143. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    RRM – No – you learn a trade to build things, not to go to an old prison.

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  144. chris (647 comments) says:

    But you see, if everyone is working, they don’t need my handouts. I already “contribute to society” in the taxes I pay, and the $200k or so I’ve brought into the country in export sales in the last few years from my own hard work. Cutting me off at some arbitrary limit really doesn’t incentivise me to work harder.

    Everyone earning the same is a nice ideal, but it doesn’t work in real life, as we have seen (Communist Russia, North Korea, Cuba, and others). The society we have is far from perfect, but we have a few rich people, a few poor people, and a whole bunch of people in the middle. The only way to achieve true equality is to effectively make everyone poor.

    I need to find that study where the professor decided to mark all his students the same grade based on the average. It’s a great read. Will have a look for it and post here if I can find it.

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  145. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    I think Communist Russia and North Korea over invest(ed) in military activities. This funding should have been re-directed into education and training.

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  146. Pete George (23,567 comments) says:

    Interviewed on regional TV tonight David Clark makes a nod towards being concerned about struggling businesses but mostly more of the same:

    In New Zealand we have a lot of people who are living in poverty who shouldn’t be living in poverty, in my view, the minimum wage is currently $13.50 an hour and people who have young children spend more than half of their income putting a healthy meal on the table every night. It shouldn’t be like that.

    We are concerned about employers who are struggling to meet their wage bills, that is a real concern for some, but to be frank, Australia seems to do ok paying a minimum wage close to $20.

    What it does when you raise it gradually is it makes sure that employers are putting the most productive practices in place and making sure they get the most out of their businesses, and smart employers tend to do well even when there’s a higher minimum wage.

    http://www.ch9.co.nz/content/local-mp-feeling-hopeful-about-new-bill

    Same old vague talking points in the main.

    Clark says he’s still hopeful about the bill and is going to try to talk John Key round, but he’ll have to come up with a lot more substance than this to be taken seriously.

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  147. chris (647 comments) says:

    There’s a good chance the story is complete BS, but it’s what would happen if a professor really did do this:

    An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism. All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

    After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little…

    The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. All failed to their great surprise and the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder to succeed the greater the reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

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  148. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    The students should have worked together to produce positive results.

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  149. chris (647 comments) says:

    Quite a nice comeback. Shame it’s completely unrealistic for both the students and life in general. But I guess under your regime you’ll “force” them to work together.

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  150. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder to succeed the greater the reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

    The story might have been a little more convincing if the professor had known what socialism was. Alas, many of those on here are probably equally deluded about what it is.

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  151. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    And what happens to the ones that won’t work together to produce positive results?

    The Ministry of Love?

    Room 101?

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  152. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Not force them to work together. Here is what I would do if the professor said the same grade for all essays (assuming a class of 20, 2000 word essay):

    1. After the lecture brief on the essay question, wait behind and call all the students to a meeting.
    2. Separate the students in four groups.
    3. Five members in each group – one writes the introduction and paragraph one, three take two paragraphs in sequence each, and the final member writes the last paragraph and conclusion.
    4. Each group elects a leader and attends a leaders’ meeting to agree on the best overall essay.
    5. The best essay is submitted by all students and achieves a high mark.

    Not a zero sum game – the students work together to produce the optimum result.

    The professor is a typical neolib who thinks people can be divided and forced to compete for no reason. Like 80 people turning up for the same job interview at McDonalds and fighting for a minimum wage job. People can achieve far more when the work together.

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  153. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    4. Each group elects a leader and attends a leaders’ meeting to agree on the best overall essay

    But, as Orwell showed us, not before they have elected themselves as the Politburo and declared “four legs good, two legs better”

    (Not surprisingly the grading of the essays is then assigned to the Professor in consultation with the Politburo – quality of argument has nothing to do with it.)

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  154. chris (647 comments) says:

    You’re a funny man/woman. I spent 3 years at Auckland University and 1.5 years at AIT. Only once was I unfortunately subjected to a group assignment. Guess who did all the work? It was the person who wanted the good grade, i.e. me. The others were a bunch of hopeless slackers. If it wasn’t for me we probably would have failed. (Now that I think about it, I seem to remember the same thing happening in another annoying group assignment at high school).

    Honestly, if you’re all going to get the same grade for the same essay, why would bother trying? Hand in a blank piece of paper and you’re going to get the same grade as everybody else. Oh wait, now everybody handed in a blank sheet of paper so the “best” essay is a combined 5 pieces of blank paper. Never mind, everyone gets the same grade. Of course it means you all get a FAIL. But then that doesn’t matter, because we’re all going to get paid the same no matter what effort we put in.

    I haven’t commented on Kiwiblog for years, but you’re comedy gold. I’ve been enjoying the other posts you’ve been commenting on too. Shame no one has bitten yet on your comment about Peter Jackson being a class traitor.

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  155. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    > I haven’t commented on Kiwiblog for years

    A shame you had to ruin what had hitherto been a golden silence.

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  156. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    I seem to recall it was a bunch of evil socialists who set up free health care and education, provided low cost housing to those in need. A comprehensive social welfare system was set up to provide for those in need, which included the elderly, the sick, the widowed and unemployed. The 40 hour week was introduced by those nasty socialists!! The Tories should stick to what they know best – greed.

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  157. chris (647 comments) says:

    Those are all good things ross, and they were (and still are) the right things to have been done. I just disagree that paying everyone exactly the same amount of money no matter what they do is a good thing. It would lead to everyone being poor because there is no incentive to achieve.

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  158. chris (647 comments) says:

    A comprehensive social welfare system was set up to provide for those in need

    Well, that’s how it was set up, anyway, for those in need. I reckon those who set it up would shudder if they knew what had become of it and the sense of entitlement so many have today.

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  159. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    A living wage = a wage you can live on.

    $13.50 an hour in NZ doesn’t cut it.

    You need to back this statement up. I will disprove it for you.

    50hrs x $13.50=$675 less 18% tax = $553.50 in the hand per week

    less $90 rent, $180 food, $30 power/phone, $60 spending money = $193.50 saved per week

    plus 5% compound interest over 25 years (15-40)=$500,000 in the bank

    Anything you spend over these amounts is a lifestyle choice.

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  160. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Sonny – big big flaws, 50 hours a week and $90 rent.

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  161. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Prices contain the greatest transfer of information of all human technologies or ideas. They are essential to the useful allocation of resources.

    Removing prices is like switching off the internet and burning every book all in one go.

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  162. chris (647 comments) says:

    While 50 hours might be pushing it (I’d say it’s more likely to be 37.5 after the .5 hour unpaid break), have you not heard of flatting with other people? It’s not hard to live off that sort of rent if you choose the right people and the right place. Look here’s a $50 p/w place in AKL if you want it http://www.trademe.co.nz/flatmates-wanted/auction-286342635.htm

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  163. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    ross69 (633) Says:
    July 31st, 2012 at 8:14 pm
    I seem to recall it was a bunch of evil socialists who set up free health care and education, provided low cost housing to those in need. A comprehensive social welfare system was set up to provide for those in need, which included the elderly, the sick, the widowed and unemployed. The 40 hour week was introduced by those nasty socialists!! The Tories should stick to what they know best – greed.

    These are all terrible, terrible things that hurt that marginalise the poor for the sake of controlling the middle classes.

    All the government needs to do is provide security, infrastructure, and transfer payments for distress.

    Socialised healthcare and education are vile practises and should not be a feature of a civilised society.

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  164. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Hamnida (79) Says:
    July 31st, 2012 at 8:48 pm
    Sonny – big big flaws, 50 hours a week and $90 rent.

    I do not have many peers that work under 50 hours a week, when I am trying to get ahead i work 60+.

    And I have been paying less than $90 rent the last 2 years, there are many options on trademe and I took far from the cheapest one. Now a couple on the minimum wage could make serious savings with the rent they could get away with.

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  165. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    I don’t know if that garage for $50 a week is what M J Savage had in mind.

    Sonny – no free education for children?

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  166. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Trademe:

    Search results
    Wellington, Wellington, $50 – $100 rent per week
    and email me the latest listings
    List view Gallery view
    Sort by:

    38 listings, showing 1 to 38

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  167. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Hamnida (80) Says:
    July 31st, 2012 at 8:58 pm
    I don’t know if that garage for $50 a week is what M J Savage had in mind.

    Sonny – no free education for children?

    Not for the middle classes. A graduated non transferable education voucher from $10,000 down to $0pa as parents income goes from $0-$100,000

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  168. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    So the richer your parents are, the better/more education you receive.

    Are you sure that’s fair? I’d like to see all children have the same opportunities.

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  169. chris (647 comments) says:

    Classic, I suck! Didn’t read the ad properly.

    OK
    Manukau $50-ish http://www.trademe.co.nz/flatmates-wanted/auction-499156263.htm
    Dunedin $50 http://www.trademe.co.nz/flatmates-wanted/auction-496942491.htm

    Geez I earnt sweet FA when I was a AIT studying but I still managed to flat with my girlfriend and a mate in Parnell in Auckland and still afford food, the rent, power, phone, internet, payments on my computer (very expensive back then but needed for my study), vehicle expenses, insurance, and a 6 pack on Fridays. And we were quite happy, thank you very much.

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  170. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Seriously – who wants live in Dunedin or Manukau? I wouldn’t pay $2.

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  171. chris (647 comments) says:

    Which is precisely the problem with this country. Are you for real, or just trying to wind people up?

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  172. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    Hamnida (82) Says:
    July 31st, 2012 at 9:04 pm
    So the richer your parents are, the better/more education you receive.

    The opposite. You earn $20,000 yr kid gets $8,000pa. You earn $80,000 yr kid gets $2,000.

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  173. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Hmmm – So the parents earning $80,000 can only spend $2000?

    What if you earn $150,000 – no education for your children?

    I guess your policy would ‘close the gaps’ – the children of poorer people get educated while rich children just get dumber.

    I think a better idea would free education for all children, regardless of parental income.

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  174. chris (647 comments) says:

    Seriously – who wants live in Dunedin or Manukau? I wouldn’t pay $2.

    A socialist and a snob. You must be of the chardonnay class of socialist. Good enough for them, but not good enough for me.

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  175. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Hamnida

    I grew up in a place that can best be described as a shit hole. I worked hard and now (after a few bumps along the way) earn a bloody great income.

    Am I a class traitor for not staying in that shit hole suburb and being on the dole like most of its inhabitants?

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  176. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    I think a better idea would free education for all children, regardless of parental income.

    You mean like we have now?

    Well duh.

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  177. chris (647 comments) says:

    Hamnida, you’re either a wind up or an idiot. I’m not sure I necessarily agree with Sonny’s policy, but the extra $$ is fronted up by the parents out of their own pocket, instead of via taxes. Let’s say it costs 8k to educate a child per year. Parents on $20 gets 8k so don’t have to spend any of their own money. Parents on $80k get 2k so have to “top it up” to 6k out of their own money rather than via the taxes that would have otherwise been taken from them.

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  178. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    So the richer your parents are, the better/more education you receive.

    The way it should be, too.

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  179. chris (647 comments) says:

    I think a better idea would free education for all children, regardless of parental income.

    You mean like we have now?

    Well duh.

    Might be true if all schools were funded the same. But they aren’t. Some are expected to take up the shortfall by paying quite high “donations” because of our ability to donate more aka the decile system. Never mind that we already donate more via our taxes.

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  180. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Chris – so the richer you are (or more disposable income in this case), the better the education for your children.

    Not the NZ I want to live in.

    I want to live in a country where all children have access to high quality education regardless of parental wealth.

    Reid – I don’t think we have this now – parents can buy private schooling and extra tutorials. They can purchase houses in wealthy suburbs where schools with high achievement rates are located.

    All children deserve the same opportunities.

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  181. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    Hamnida, you’re either a wind up or an idiot.

    She is both.

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  182. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Might be true if all schools were funded the same. But they aren’t. Some are expected to take up the shortfall by paying quite high “donations” because of our ability to donate more aka the decile system. Never mind that we already donate more via our taxes.

    Well who cares Chris. Manolo’s got the right idea. If your parents were too stupid or foolish to earn enough cash to give you a jolly good education, then that’s their fault and your misfortune isn’t it. It’s certainly not society’s fault.

    No-one owes you a living, or an upbringing for that matter.

    To the extent we’re civilised, we give parents a modicum of support but fact is, these days, parents don’t even pull their own weight in most cases and when bad things happen, all the lefty hand-wringers turn around and blame the nasty old taxpayer (i.e. you and I) for not being generous enough when in fact the real problem was, someone’s arse didn’t get a good enough kicking in parenthood school. But no, lefty fools and fuckwits don’t look at that side of it, ever. Never ever ever.

    Hence our hopelessly parlous society with dependents with their hands out all over the place and not a one in sight saying: “Stand on your own two feet lads, stand tall, stand proud. You can do it.”

    No. None of that.

    Instead it’s all about:

    “Oh dear. You poor widdle victim. Here let me cuddle you and wrap you in cotton wool and take all your pain away because you’re a victim!!! Yes. It’s NOT your fault!!! No!!! There are big bad meanies out there (I can’t see them but I know they’re there) and they just want to hurt you and stop you from being happy and singing tra la la la la la like it’s your HUMAN WIGHT to!!!!!! and they won’t let you!!! Oh Dear!!!!!!!!~!

    And that’s what really happens on a daily basis in our society today. And you know what. It’s all the fault of stupid fucking morons like Hamnida and all his lefty mates in Wellington. Yes, it is.

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  183. chris (647 comments) says:

    Chris – so the richer you are (or more disposable income in this case), the better the education for your children.

    No! Your comprehension is reprehensible. Under Sonny’s idea, the more you earn the less you get from the govt, so you have to top it up with your own money, which would mean less taxes paid overall. I’m not going to explain again. Note, I didn’t say I agreed with the policy. FWIW I think education (up to and including secondary level anyway) should be free and all school pupils should be funded the same amount so there should be no need for “voluntary donations”.

    I have no problem with people wanting to pay for private schooling, but I think they are fools to do so, at least at the primary school level. My sister has her kids at private primary education and guess what, the classes have just as many kids in them as ours do and they still hit them up for extra fundraising over and above the ridiculous fees they pay.

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  184. chris (647 comments) says:

    Nah Reid, it’s trololololo don’t you know ;)

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  185. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    I could never understand Spanish chris. I’m not very big on minority stuff like that. Some people who know me well are surprised when I reveal that side of me. Normally I’m so caring and sensitive, you see…

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  186. chris (647 comments) says:

    No, not Spanish, this http://trololololololololololo.com/
    You big softy you

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  187. chris (647 comments) says:

    Oh and just in case you want the fascinating background http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Khil

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  188. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    http://trololololololololololo.com/

    That looks like one of Paula Bennet’s policy meetings when they’re discussing the launch of something really big Chris.

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  189. chris (647 comments) says:

    Good one :)

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  190. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Yes I wonder where Hamnida is. How come he’s shut up all of a sudden. What caused that?

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  191. chris (647 comments) says:

    Hamnida’ll be back. Plenty of baiting in the above :)

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  192. chris (647 comments) says:

    Hooray, and while I’ve been productively commenting on Kiwiblog, I’ve finished a documentation project that’s been long the making. Of course, if I was just being paid the same as everyone else, why would I bother spending my evening in this way?

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  193. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Just having a shower before bed.

    Chris – I am glad you don’t agree with the voucher policy. It would result in the $20,000 a year parent spending their $8,000 voucher and a $150,000 a year parent sending little Matthew off to an $18,000 a year school. There is a reason why ACT promote such a system, it benefits the rich racist pricks.

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  194. chris (647 comments) says:

    Dear oh dear. Matthew’s parents would be paying $16k for his education when they could pay $6k for a perfectly good education (assuming at 150k his parents get $2k). Chanelle’s $20k parents would be paying $0. BTW, Sweden, that supposedly socialist nirvana, uses a voucher system. And I didn’t say I didn’t agree with it; just that “I didn’t say I agreed with it” which if you were clever enough would mean you realised it’s not the same thing. More of that reprehensible comprehension.

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  195. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    There is a reason why ACT promote such a system, it benefits the rich racist pricks.

    Crikey Hamnida, isn’t that stereotyping and isn’t stereotyping considered to be really, really, really, really bad amongst girly lefty women such as Wussel Norman to name one?

    What about Steve Jobs? Or Lewis Hamilton? Or Usain Bolt? They’re all “rich pricks” aren’t they. I mean, of course they are. They have to be. If they aren’t, then who is, right? But, are they racist?

    If so, why?

    Or…

    Why not?

    ??

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  196. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Never before in the history of kiwiblog endevours has so much stupidity been displayed by so few, for so long. Hamnida, take a bow. Then plan a visit to Earth sometime.

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  197. KiwiGreg (3,255 comments) says:

    Not sure in all the noise above whether anyone has called you on your horseshit apples and oranges comparison. Mondayisation raises the costs for ALL workers so your “0.2%” is not at all comparable with an increase in the minimum wage. Both are stupid ideas leading New Zealand down a Grecian path

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  198. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Sweden’s education standards continue to fall in OECD studies, including PISA. This fall coincides with the introduction of their voucher system.

    There is nothing wrong at all with wanting all children to have the same educational opportunities regardless of parental income.

    Good public school whether your parents earn $20,000 or $150,000. No one keeping the class system alive by purchasing a better education for their children. All children born with equal opportunities.

    Planet Earth is better than the now defunct Planet ACT.

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  199. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Reid – ACT’s views on ethnic minorities are well known.

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  200. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    So quite clearly you are a bigot who hates ‘rich’ people Hamnida.

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  201. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Just rich people who don’t distribute their wealth and are racist.

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  202. Sonny Blount (1,782 comments) says:

    What has that got to do with someone who chooses to send their kids to a private school?

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  203. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    Youve got a computer hamnida – that makes you rich compared to the majority of the planets inhabitants. Going to sell it and donate the proceeds via tax anytime soon?

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  204. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    hmmokrightitis (679) Says:
    August 1st, 2012 at 9:09 am

    Youve got a computer hamnida – that makes you rich compared to the majority of the planets inhabitants. Going to sell it and donate the proceeds via tax anytime soon?

    No reply…

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  205. hmmokrightitis (1,590 comments) says:

    Noted RRM, prompted in to action. Saving the world one computer at a time :)

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  206. graham (2,335 comments) says:

    A bit late to the party on this, but there is something worth noting IMHO.

    Hamnida talks about “one wage for all”. Think that’s nuts? Well remember, this is not so far from what John Minto has proposed – namely, that nobody in New Zealand should take home more than $250,000 pa. John Minto would have a 100% tax rate for any earnings above $250,000. At the time of this interview, John Minto stated that this was a draft Mana policy.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/john-minto-interview-transcript-4361373

    Never, never forget this – John Minto and Mana do not want anybody earning over $250,000. Doesn’t matter how much risk you take, how big you grow your business, how many people you provide employment for – if Mana have their way, you will NOT BE ALLOWED TO EARN OVER $250,000, EVER.

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  207. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    The new French government have something very similar. Makes sense, who needs more than $250,000 a year? You would have to very greedy to want more than that.

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