The Batman shootings

July 23rd, 2012 at 11:46 am by David Farrar

News broke on Twitter of the shootings at the screening of Aurora. The local newspaper was live tweeting from the scene, and their follower numbers skyrocketed, as millions of people realised they could get reports faster through Twitter than through news websites.

Incredible sadness for all those who died, but especially the woman who survived a mass shooting in Toronto, to be killed in Aurora – how unlucky do you have to be, to be in two mass shootings.

A minor blessing I guess is was such a lousy shot. Of 70 people he shot, he only killed 12. The death toll could have been far worse.

While all mass shooters are to a degree mad, this one seems more inexlicable than most. With Columbine, it was two kids who snapped after years of bullying. In Norway it was a political extremist who wanted to make a point. With Holmes, it is not at all clear why he did this, apart from obviously trying to emulate The Joker. Also somewhat unusual that he got taken alive.

Holmes had no history of problems apart from struggling with a PhD in neuroscience. However he got honours for his undergrad degree. Almost no Internet footprint.

Maybe one day we will find out what caused him to do this, but that won’t bring back the dead of course.

Its illogical, but I don’t intend to see the movie now. I’ll probably watch it at some stage when it hits TV. But Batman will never quite be the same again.

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130 Responses to “The Batman shootings”

  1. Pete George (21,806 comments) says:

    The Batshit crazy shootings. Death imitating art?

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  2. Kimble (4,092 comments) says:

    Brilliant PG.

    But a little too soon.

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  3. KevinH (1,128 comments) says:

    Investigators will probably find that he is a classic narcissistic loner suffering delusions in that he has metamorphosised into a character in the movie.There have been reports that he trawled pick up sites prior to the attack so there may be a sexual element to his attack.

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  4. Chuck Bird (4,406 comments) says:

    It is indeed sad but this will occur again and again until the Americans accept some level of gun control. I have been been asked three times to support someone’s application for a gun licence. Twice I declined. The third one I should have knowing what know now. The person’s mother had him commuted many years ago.

    I just heard on the radio that a gun club had turned him down after a weird message on his answerphone with a mention of batman.

    Not only is he mad but the American system that allows someone to purchase a rifle with a round 100 bullet magazine.

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  5. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Its illogical, but I don’t intend to see the movie now

    Definitely illogical. It’s a high calibre movie.

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  6. tvb (3,939 comments) says:

    These shooting tragedies are awful. But so is the notariety these people gain from the media.

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  7. wikiriwhis business (3,286 comments) says:

    so if gun owners are so dangerous why didn’t someone pull out a gun and shoot him in the movie.

    Just another false flag to disarm Americans who are millions ans millions of honest living citizens

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  8. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    Gun regulations/controls or not, this person was clearly deranged and prepared to carry out this atrocity.
    No law could ever stop people like this bastard.

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  9. jims_whare (389 comments) says:

    The word evil springs to mind.

    However in this day of relativity & liberal pc crap it couldn’t possibly that Mr Holmes was simply an evil SOB.

    No it will be something else – teach looked at him funny or maybe a professor gave him an A- not an A+ on an exam.

    Plenty more like him around think Clayton Weatherston or similar.

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  10. virtualmark (1,421 comments) says:

    Very good blog post from George Costanza Jason Alexander on the Aurora shooting and US gun laws, at http://www.twitlonger.com/show/if2nht

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  11. Chuck Bird (4,406 comments) says:

    “Gun regulations/controls or not, this person was clearly deranged and prepared to carry out this atrocity.
    No law could ever stop people like him.”

    Manolo, why do you not try and engage your brain before your finger? The person could not have obtained such a weapon in NZ or many other Western countries. If the gun with a 100 bullet magazine had not jammed there could have been more people shot and killed. It a nutcase is determined enough like the one in Norway they may get the weapons for a mass killing but it is sheer madness not to attempt to make it more difficult for those who are clearly mad to get the type of weapons.

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  12. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    I know its illogical but someone died at work last week, I will therefore give it up

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  13. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    Its illogical, but I don’t intend to see the movie now. I’ll probably watch it at some stage when it hits TV.

    Neither. I’m going to torrent it once there’s a HQ rip.

    From the little I’ve read it sounds like he may have a legitimate mental illness (rather than just psychopathy and narcissism which are personality issues). That decline into being a loner with poor academic performance, and the apparently quite persistent delusions, sound like schizophrenia or something. So he might not be evil.

    (All the same, he needs to be punished like anyone else would.)

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  14. redeye (626 comments) says:

    I watched a movie called God Bless America the day before the shooting and wonder he was motivated by that.

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  15. B A W (82 comments) says:

    A quote from a Tom Scott Cartoon around the time of the Aramoana Shootings.

    Sure guns don’t kill people, people kill people, still if you want to kill people an assault rifle is really handy.

    Unless you have a no gun society you will always have a capacity for a mass shooting like this.

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  16. Longknives (4,048 comments) says:

    “Its illogical, but I don’t intend to see the movie now.”

    Very illogical- Why should the actions of one psycho ruin the legacy of a good film?

    John Hinckley was obsessed with the movie “Taxi Driver”- yet this doesn’t detract from the film’s classic status.
    Martin Bryant was obsessed with Chucky from the film “Child’s Play”- Yet the film is still a great laugh.
    I like the Beatles song “Helter Skelter” as well- It’s a brilliant song..despite old Charlie using it as his catchphrase!

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  17. F E Smith (3,273 comments) says:

    The person could not have obtained such a weapon in NZ or many other Western countries.

    Of course he could have.  Obtaining a gun of that sort, even in a country with very strict gun laws, is always possible.  In the USA, with Mexico just to the south, it would be extremely easy.

    Anyway, doesn’t Switzerland have a very high proportion of automatic weapons in the community due to military service?

    In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles stored at private homes, mostly Sig 550 types. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only.

    I don’t think the sort of gun control that you and others advocate is the answer.  What generally happens then is that only criminal and the cops have guns. And the criminals will always be able to obtain weapons.

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  18. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    Perhaps Jason Alexander should stick to being a B-grade actor, rather than shooting his mouth off. He said 100,000 people are killed by guns every year in the US. Maybe in Somalia. In the USA it’s more around 10,000.

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  19. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    Not only is he mad but the American system that allows someone to purchase a rifle with a round 100 bullet magazine.

    The use of a 100 round magazine only indicates he didn’t know what he was doing. By way of example the familiar drum magazine of the thompson submachinegun was hardly ever used outside the movies because of its great weight and that only held about 50 rounds.

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  20. F E Smith (3,273 comments) says:

    the familiar drum magazine of the thompson submachinegun was hardly ever used outside the movies because of its great weight and that only held about 50 rounds.

    And was apparently prone to jamming on a chronic scale.

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  21. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    You right wingers still support the right to bear arms?

    Your Republican mates do.

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  22. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    From the little I’ve read it sounds like he may have a legitimate mental illness (rather than just psychopathy and narcissism which are personality issues). That decline into being a loner with poor academic performance, and the apparently quite persistent delusions, sound like schizophrenia or something. So he might not be evil.

    (All the same, he needs to be punished like anyone else would.)

    What’s the evidence for delusions? That his doctoral thesis went kaputsville? Happens all the time to sane people without them going postal. And if he did have delusions when he committed the crime then that’s a legitimate defence to murder.

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  23. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    You left wingers still support the idea to borrow money to invest?

    Your fuckwit labour mates tried to tell us that was OK last election.

    Your point?

    Edit to say: WTF is up with the left today, did someone load a stupid virus into their collective or what?

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  24. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    And was apparently prone to jamming on a chronic scale.

    In wikipedia, there is the tale of how the British Army sent back thousands of drum magazines back to the states to be replaced by the smaller 20-round magazine.

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  25. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    Terrible movie. I don’t understand how anyone could like it.

    SPOILERS:
    SPOILERS:
    SPOILERS:
    SPOILERS:
    SPOILERS:

    I didn’t really see any running water where the cops were plus they were sealed in from rocks. So even if there was a small amount of water running beneath their feet, you expect me to believe that if 3000 tightly packed men were pissing and shitting while malnourished and unbathed for five months none of them would get sick? When the cops fight the bad guys. What the hell happened? The bad guys have tanks and assault rifles. They used a lot of grenades and other explosives throughout the movie. Cops, on the other hand, only have handguns plus possibly a small number of properly equipped SWAT teams. Cops just WALK in a big group in one direction. WALK against tanks until just ONE tank is blown up by the bat. Fast forward one minute, we have a melee fight. The criminals had full automatics and they decided to fight hand to hand, and how the hell is anyone going to muster the strength to do anything in a fight after being stuck in a hole for five months. Did they have a gym down there? Batman is the DARK knight, not the fights in a crowd in broad daylight knight. What happened to the batman that fought with stealth like in the first movie? Watching him take out eight armed guys by just showing up between them and having 95% of them charge him without firing their weapons was just awful.

    While in prison why would Bane protect the child? Speaking about fanaticism, why are all the terrorists so loyal to Bane/Talia? In the end it seemed like they knew who Talia is – they were taking direct orders from her… So it takes just one, just one guy to spill it (and you could tell they’re not all Ras al Ghul ninjas either, e.g. truck driver guy who acted like a redneck).

    Never knew you could fix a broken back by simply slamming your palm into the vertebrae and tying someone up to the roof. The doctor was great too, speaks one language for most of his scenes and then out of nowhere he’s pumping out fluent English and is now the #1 source for knowing how to get out of the prison (even though he obviously never did it himself).

    END SPOILERS.
    END SPOILERS.
    END SPOILERS.
    END SPOILERS.
    END SPOILERS.

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  26. CraigM (692 comments) says:

    The aftermath of crimes like this always turns political. Gun control isn’t to blame, the individual is. Typical of (western?) society today that personal responsibility gives way to political/religious ideals. This guy also booby-trapped his apartment. Clearly he was intent on killing and if he didn’t have guns available, what’s to say he wouldn’t have shown up at the theatre with a bomb?

    This was the action of a sick individual who wanted to kill. They exist in every society. Yes, maybe access to guns make it easier, but I’m thinking a bomb would have been even deadlier. Remember Mc Veigh? would he have killed so many if he went into that building with a rifle instead of using a bomb.

    If people want to look for reasons, look at our society, our way of life, our morals and principals…..don’t blame the tools.

    Guns are not the problem, human beings are. We have a propensity to kill each other and have done so since time began. Gun control won’t change that and existing laws prove that over and over again.

    Incredibly sad for all those caught up in the horror, almost as sad that it takes something liek this to remind most people that they should care more about the society they are helping to create.

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  27. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    It is NOT the firearms people, we have a hell of a lot of firearms in NZ but our first move is not to slot some bugger but smack him in the mouth.
    The yanks are different, I’m upset therefore I will go and shoot some school kids, shoot up a theatre etc etc etc.
    As pointed out Switzerland as/had a hell of a lot of assault rifles in homes with ammo readily available, but, they are civilised.
    Firearms are fine, just keep them out of the hands of nutty yanks of which there are far too many

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  28. Mr_Blobby (91 comments) says:

    Mass murder on NZ roads, last month. We should ban all cars.

    It was probably a gun free zone, so nobody had the means at hand to stop him. Similar with the school shootings, Gun free zones. Some one had to actually go to there car and retrieve there own gun and come back in and deal with the shooter. This was not reported by the media.

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  29. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    That chain of cinemas ban guns from their premises. How many shots do you think he would have got off had the ban not been in place? I am guessing not many.

    Concealed carry saves lives. And this guy was always going to find a way of doing what he did, whatever laws were in place. Like that twat who shot Lennon, he wanted to be famous for something and now he is. No gun law in the world would have stopped him. So people can cut the bullshit.

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  30. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    Before we go getting all high and mighty about nutty Yanks,let’s see
    Aramoana,napier and the unexplained murders at the Bain home……in such a small peaceful country!

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  31. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    Yeah Blair, useless bloody victims should have fought back.

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  32. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    Another ringing endorsement of the U.S. citizen’s Right to bear Arms…

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  33. Chuck Bird (4,406 comments) says:

    “I don’t think the sort of gun control that you and others advocate is the answer. What generally happens then is that only criminal and the cops have guns. And the criminals will always be able to obtain weapons.”

    What type of gun control do you think I am advocating? I do beleive in some gun control unlike in parts of the US. What we have now in NZ is not bad. However, I would like to see guns as well as owner registered.

    I very much doubt if someone could get this guys armory in NZ and anyone who tried would be detected.

    Switzerland is a different matter. Reservist can have weapons and it is possible one could go mad but their gun control is a lot different than the US where there is little or no gun control.

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  34. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    I very much doubt if someone could get this guys armory in NZ and anyone who tried would be detected.

    You don’t recall the Napier Siege? The guy had an arsenal and the only way the police found out was that he also sold pot from his premises.

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  35. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    YES BlairM – if Biggie Smalls had been there with his Mac-10 he could have dropped that Mother Fucker the minute he started shooting, and none of this would have happened.

    Oh dear… :lol:

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  36. Chuck Bird (4,406 comments) says:

    “Before we go getting all high and mighty about nutty Yanks,let’s see
    Aramoana,napier and the unexplained murders at the Bain home……in such a small peaceful country!”

    I do not think anyone is saying that gun control will stop all murders. I certainly am not. It is a matter of numbers. I have done a few sums. In the US there are 12790 people murdered with guns annually. That equates to a little on 4 per 100,000. In NZ there are about 1.3 murders with all weapons per 100,000.

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  37. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    The police knew Molenaar had held general and collector’s firearms licenses which expired in 2002 following a 1992 decision to do away with lifetime licences in favour of a 10-year system.

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  38. iMP (2,151 comments) says:

    America is simply going to have case after case after case of this type of thing:
    Columbine
    Virginia Tech
    Amishtown
    Colorado
    Washington DC sniper
    Oakland
    Oaklahoma McVeigh, etc…

    a potent mix of mental illness, social disaffection, and easy access to combat type weapons. Restrict the latter and you diminish the carnage. We’re realising this with alcohol.

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  39. Longknives (4,048 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird- The Bain Murders are really “Unexplained”??

    I can explain them for you…

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  40. slade52 (13 comments) says:

    Gun control laws are as effective at preventing murder as anti-smacking laws are at preventing child abuse.

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  41. Longknives (4,048 comments) says:

    In respect to gunmen Molenaar has to be the ultimate loser- An arsenal of weaponry and all he can do is shoot one unarmed person..apart from his own drug-addled self.
    Fucking pothead dropkick.

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  42. Rufus (606 comments) says:

    All you pro- gun control folks.

    How is Aussie doing these days, since they toughened up gun control after Port Arthur?

    Oh – that’s right. It has become MORE violent. http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

    Outlaw guns, and the only the outlaws will have guns.

    Brazil is another good example. Very difficult to own a firearm for the ordinary joe. As a result, flash mob armed robberies take place regularly – apparently gangs will converge on say a restaurant, hold the place up, rob everyone, and run. Ditto with apartment buildings.

    The thugs have never taken any notice of the law.

    Maybe the cinema should have had a larger “no guns” sign… / sarc

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  43. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    Yeah Blair, useless bloody victims should have fought back.

    A woman with pistol in her purse could have finished him with a good shot to the head. No body armour in the world can stop that. An armed society is a polite society, and a safe one.

    Let me also state that nobody in New Zealand can point a finger at the US in this regard. From David Gray, to David Bain, to Brian Schlaeffer, to Raymond Ratima, to Jan Molenaar, all on a population of four million people… multiply that by 75 to get the US equivalent, and the US suddenly looks a whole lot safer from mass killings than NZ does. Fact.

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  44. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    In the US there are 12790 people murdered with guns annually. That equates to a little on 4 per 100,000. In NZ there are about 1.3 murders with all weapons per 100,000.

    The US gun homicide rate is largely due to gang and street violence rather than people going on a mass killing spree. Which is why I find arguments relying on such figures in the aftermath of mass shootings to be comparing apples with oranges. Yes, you could bring down the homicide rate by laws against gun use on the street (but simply passing a law saying such things are wrong won’t work) but that will do next to nothing to stop shooting sprees.

    If we want to have fun with numbers, then I calculate to get a comparable death toll from Brevik’s slaughter last year, the US would have to have 3800 deaths through mass murders to achieve an equivalent per capita death as Norway’s. It didn’t even get anywhere near 200.

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  45. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    BlairM (1,685) Says:
    July 23rd, 2012 at 2:43 pm

    A woman with pistol in her purse could have finished him with a good shot to the head. No body armour in the world can stop that. An armed society is a polite society, and a safe one.

    If you’re such a smartass why don’t you become the Batman?

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  46. SHG (320 comments) says:

    In a week full of trite comments, here’s mine: the problem isn’t with US laws, it’s with US culture. The USA as a nation is batshit insane.

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  47. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    a potent mix of mental illness, social disaffection, and easy access to combat type weapons. Restrict the latter and you diminish the carnage. We’re realising this with alcohol.

    Mental illness? Most of the perps responsible for the shootings that you list were not mentally ill. As for combat type weapons, Oklahoma was a bombing involving homebrewed explosives.

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  48. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    If you’re such a smartass why don’t you become the Batman?

    I have no interest in owning a gun, but I am fortunate to live in Texas where the default assumption is that I have one somewhere on my person,

    By the way, there was another shooting in Aurora recently. You never heard about it because in the church where it happened, one of the congregation was armed and shot the bastard before he could kill anyone else:

    http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/04/22/2-shot-outside-aurora-church/#.T5WjZzkp8hQ.facebook

    The Second Amendment saves lives.

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  49. virtualmark (1,421 comments) says:

    EastWellingtonSuperHero (not Batman by any chance?):

    He said 100,000 people are killed by guns every year in the US. Maybe in Somalia. In the USA it’s more around 10,000.

    And he later corrected that in a subsequent tweet. It was 100,000 people killed or injured by guns every year in the US.

    FWIW, it looks like the US has about 30,000 deaths a year from gunshot wounds, across both homicides and suicides.

    But thank you for your erudite and well-reasoned response to his argument.

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  50. Manolo (12,624 comments) says:

    The USA as a nation is batshit insane.

    Another USA-hater joins the bandwagon.
    Yes, your comment is beyond being trite, but simply pathetic.

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  51. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    US gun crime (Google docs)

    2010 – Total murders: 12,996 – By gunshot: 8,775

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  52. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    BlairM said…”A woman with pistol in her purse could have finished him with a good shot to the head. No body armour in the world can stop that. An armed society is a polite society, and a safe one.”

    Know much about handguns? Thought not. They are notoriously inaccurate, and being able to get a head shot in with one? Meh, you spend too much time on your XBox. As for your last comment, please. If EVERYONE has a weapon, yes. Sadly, the crims all do and some of the public. Does that mean its safe? Tui ad.

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  53. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    hmmokrights

    handguns notoriuosly inaccurate…….bullshit!

    The control freaks should be celebrating today! Ciggies can’t be displayed! Wow ,that’ll clear up lung cancer! Increase the price of booze wahwahwah ,prohibition wawawawa.

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  54. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    A woman with pistol in her purse could have finished him with a good shot to the head. No body armour in the world can stop that. An armed society is a polite society, and a safe one.

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    You mean a woman like one of these ones?

    http://wackymania.com/image/2010/12/girls-with-gun/girls-with-gun-02.jpg

    http://www.weaponscache.com/forum/gallery/files/2/5/action-ru-girl-gun-19.jpg

    http://songsforamerica.net/songsforamerica/wp-content/gallery/girls-with-guns/serious%20girl%20with%20gun.jpg

    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_562/129161988194dQ6t.jpg

    Or do you mean someone from the real world?

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  55. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    F E Smith
    I don’t think the sort of gun control that you and others advocate is the answer. What generally happens then is that only criminal and the cops have guns. And the criminals will always be able to obtain weapons.

    Never a truer word said.

    I like that NZ is generally gun free amongst the general populace, though being in the sticks you see & get the opportunity to fire off on very rare ocassions. Police are never far from a pistol, especially at night you’ll see them carrying ocassionally…and that’s a good thing.

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  56. Colville (1,771 comments) says:

    kowtow, done much pistol shooting? I have done a little and know its really hard to hit a 6 inch plate at 10 meters under time pressure!

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  57. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    What Colville said. And then start moving that plate erratically. kowtow, you know diddly. Ask anyone with a weapons background and they will tell you, anything more than 20 feet and a stationary target, forget it. And when that targets moving?

    Youve got more luck on Saturday night clutching your dick and your ticket.

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  58. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    handguns notoriuosly inaccurate…….bullshit!

    Keep reading them gun mags silly old man.

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  59. RRM (8,988 comments) says:

    I would have gone to the back of the room and picked up the sniper rifle… 8-)

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  60. Colville (1,771 comments) says:

    RRM, I am with you on that. I am happy to do a standing head shot from 50 meters with my 223 but with a pistol at a jacked up freak who is shooting back I doubt I would be so calm and sure….

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  61. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    Do you a deal kowtow. I have an M1911 and a Browning Hi Power in my collection. Lets pressure test them both. Then you can try yourself on my Mossberg 935. And see the difference it makes.

    But then Im sure you know what youre talking about. Right?

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  62. AG (1,727 comments) says:

    @DPF: “While all mass shooters are to a degree mad, this one seems more inexlicable than most. With Columbine, it was two kids who snapped after years of bullying.”

    While this was a common explanation for Harris an Klebold’s actions in the immediate aftermath of Columbine, it’s been pretty much debunked since then – see http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2004/04/the_depressive_and_the_psychopath.html .

    @FE Smith: “Obtaining a gun of that sort, even in a country with very strict gun laws, is always possible. In the USA, with Mexico just to the south, it would be extremely easy.”

    Oh – come on, FE. How is your run-of-the-mill Kiwi who develops a mental disorder and wants to commit a mass murder going to make the contacts with the criminal underworld necessary to find someone prepared to sell her/him a stolen military style semi-automatic assault rifle (if such a thing could be purchased in NZ)? I guess it is theoretically “possible”, but exactly how do you see it playing out in practice? Dropping by the Mongrel Mob’s local pad and saying “Hi guys … just wanting to buy a machine gun … can you help? What – a nark? Me? … help!!!”

    Also, the flow of weapons like Holmes used is from the USA (where they can be bought legally) to Mexico (which has tight controls upon the sales of guns). Although, there is an argument that because there’s so many weapons are now circulating in the US, making them illegal now would be largely ineffective.

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  63. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    RRM, make sure you pick a good ‘un :) I attended a demo session in the US a while back where we all got to test fire a couple. The Mosin-Nagat was my favourite, but for sheer brute force and stopping power you cant go past the M82 Barret.

    Oh, and FTR, yes, my heart goes out to those people shot, killed and injured. But its a cultural thing. Head north of the border in the US, same level of weapons, utterly different outcome.

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  64. Colville (1,771 comments) says:

    Dazzaman, NZ is one of the most armed populations in the world.
    Stats will show that the USA has something like three times the guns per capita than us but I believe in USA “gun nuts” are far more common that here and that throws the stats out.

    Disclaimer. I own guns and have been around guns and shooting both game and target all my life. I shoot living things most weeks.

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  65. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    RRM (5,024) Says:
    July 23rd, 2012 at 3:28 pm

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    You mean a woman like one of these ones?

    http://wackymania.com/image/2010/12/girls-with-gun/girls-with-gun-02.jpg

    http://www.weaponscache.com/forum/gallery/files/2/5/action-ru-girl-gun-19.jpg

    http://songsforamerica.net/songsforamerica/wp-content/gallery/girls-with-guns/serious%20girl%20with%20gun.jpg

    http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_562/129161988194dQ6t.jpg

    Or do you mean someone from the real world?

    That Asian is a babe.

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  66. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    Or you could go all gooey at the sight of their uniforms.

    http://www.flickriver.com/photos/damopabe/tags/policewomen/

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  67. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    interesting how when challenged the nasty language and unreasonable assumptions start flying

    hmminritis,cha
    silly old man,clutching dick etc……..very mature level of discourse

    but then you guys must be toughies with your guns and paper targets.

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  68. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    Colville

    Yes,many years.

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  69. hj (5,692 comments) says:

    There’s always something. This guys mother insisted on bathing him even when he was 17.

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  70. Colville (1,771 comments) says:

    kowtow, then you know how fucking hard it is! sheeeeeeeeeeesh!

    I like a long barrel and optics maybe even a bipod!

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  71. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    After practising on small furry things my first paper target was in the same place as these big paper targets.

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  72. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    colville

    Never said it was easy. I’m saying handguns are not “notoriously inaccurate”.As if they’re some kind of blunderbuss!

    As to north of the border,criminals with guns,many recent immigrans and drug dealers are changing the scene there.It just doesn’t make the international news like all things negatve about the states seems to.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/07/21/toronto-shootings.html

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  73. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    By the way, there was another shooting in Aurora recently. You never heard about it because in the church where it happened, one of the congregation was armed and shot the bastard before he could kill anyone else:

    Yet, had guns been as controlled as they are in NZ, there probably wouldn’t have been any shooting in the first place.

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  74. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    Interesting fact: The very first Batman comic has Batman defeating the bad guy with a gun.

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  75. F E Smith (3,273 comments) says:

    Yet, had guns been as controlled as they are in NZ, there probably wouldn’t have been any shooting in the first place.

    We have already addressed that point, and you are wrong.

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  76. hmmokrightitis (1,458 comments) says:

    The point kowtow is that they are, when your target is moving and youre under pressure – but then if you think you can crack a headshot, hell, you knock yourself out. Try it on a charging Cap’n Cooker first. Let me know how you get on.

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  77. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    Ah but now you’re qualifying you earlier statement…….

    as to living dangerously,I’ll stick to my dick on saturday nights:)

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  78. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    Oh, so pistols are inaccurate, therefore we should stop people from carrying them, thus decreasing their chance of survival in a mass shooting from “precarious” to “none whatsoever”.

    Yeah, that makes so much fucking sense.

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  79. bc (1,251 comments) says:

    It seems pretty crazy to me that someone can amass assault rifles, gas cannisters and thousands of rounds of ammunition in a time period of a couple of weeks. You can argue that guns don’t kill people, people kill people etc as much as you want, but I think there should be serious scrutiny as to why someone wants an assault rifle, not just going into a store and buying one over the counter.

    Notice how Whaleoil will tell us with delight about anyone in the USA who shoots an intruder or robber as an example of those wonderful gun laws there, but has stayed silent on this?

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  80. bc (1,251 comments) says:

    Like DPF, I don’t want to see the movie right now either. It’s not illogical, it’s called empathy.

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  81. nasska (9,502 comments) says:

    bc

    If you were of a mind you could do a fair bit of damage with a semi auto or a shotgun too…with the proviso that you have a cowered unarmed group of people who weren’t expecting to encounter a homicidal nutter at a night at the pictures. It’s already been pointed out that mass shootings have occurred in NZ & we already have tight gun control.

    Secondly ‘BlairM’ made a comment above that the cinema had a ‘no guns’ policy which didn’t seem to help much. Once again the crim was armed….his quarry wasn’t.

    New Zealanders have been coerced by Mummy State into accepting victimhood. Anyone points a gun at you, ring 111 & the nice policeman will sort it out. Just remember however, that when seconds count the police are only minutes away.

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  82. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    It just doesn’t make the international news like all things negatve about the states seems to.

    Yeah, we always hear about the wrong house or the wrong bloke.

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  83. Nostalgia-NZ (4,686 comments) says:

    bc 5.41

    ‘It seems pretty crazy to me that someone can amass assault rifles, gas cannisters and thousands of rounds of ammunition in a time period of a couple of weeks. You can argue that guns don’t kill people, people kill people etc as much as you want, but I think there should be serious scrutiny as to why someone wants an assault rifle, not just going into a store and buying one over the counter.’

    I agree. The distinction between here and the States once again.

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  84. wat dabney (3,451 comments) says:

    Its illogical, but I don’t intend to see the movie now

    “Psychologist and cognitive neuroscientist Bruce Hood has been known to brandish a cardigan belonging to the serial killer Fred West in the lecture hall. West tortured, raped, and murdered at least 12 women. Of course, a moment’s reflection will reveal that his sartorial choices probably had nothing to do with his grisly hobby. And there’s no possibility of catching serial killer disease from his sweater, right? Nonetheless, most people will refuse to wear the sweater once they know its provenance (false provenance, actually, the sweater Hood uses is not really West’s). Odder still, in large lecture halls, members of the audience will physically recoil from the few people who say they are willing to wear the sweater. The crowds, which often consist of highly-educated, secular people, laugh nervously as this little drama is played out, says Hood, because they realize that there is something odd and illogical about their reaction.”

    http://reason.com/archives/2009/06/12/would-you-wear-a-serial-killer

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  85. big bruv (12,351 comments) says:

    One day there may well be a President who is brave enough to introduce gun control laws in the USA that would see most guns banned. Until then shocking events such as this will keep happening.

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  86. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    > We have already addressed that point, and you are wrong.

    No, you have made an assertion but that is merely your opinion. The fact that some on here have mentioned Aramoana shows just how rare mass shootings are in NZ. But they’re quite common in the US. And yes, I realise the US is slightly larger. ;)

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  87. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    In Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore was given a gun simply for opening a bank account. It was a bank that gave him the gun!! Hmmm maybe those stupid enough to say there’s no difference between our gun laws and those in the US could explain which banks here give away guns. Westpac? Kiwibank? ASB?

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  88. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    ross 69
    the mike moore at the bank has been debunked .He did get a gun but it was nothing as easy as portrayed.

    moore is a liar who hates America, several docos on his so called documentaries have shown what a propagandist he is.

    One was by Canadian lefties who admired the prick unil they discovered he was as unaccessible as the quarry in his “docos”

    Do smoe research instead of accepting the fat liars’ bullshit at face value.

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  89. Nostalgia-NZ (4,686 comments) says:

    big bruv says..

    ‘One day there may well be a President who is brave enough to introduce gun control laws in the USA that would see most guns banned. Until then shocking events such as this will keep happening.’

    Exactly, it’s called removing or reducing the opportunity.

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  90. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    > He did get a gun but it was nothing as easy as portrayed

    I’m guessing you didn’t click on the link I provided. Oh well I tried.

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  91. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-39a.html

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  92. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Many of you seem unaware that the biggest risk to citizens is the state itself. Every war and large scale human rights abuse is perpetrated by those in power. These are the same people you want the citizens to give their guns to?
    Even the most cursory reading of history will demonstrate this self evident fact. ( If you don’t like history just read a news paper.)
    The actions of an occasional crazy individual can not compare to the deaths caused by the “authorities”.

    Most people crying out for gun control are not motivated by concerns for the welfare of others. They use these tragedies to push an agenda of people control.

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  93. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    Oh well I tried.

    Not as hard as Mr Moore tried though …

    The opening scene features Michael Moore in the North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Michigan, which was running a promotion saying that for every account opened, they would give away not a toaster or a walkman, but a gun. We see Moore filling out the paperwork to open a new account. This done, the teller hands him a rifle. Moore exits the bank, thrusts the rifle into the air like some well-fed Sandinista, and over the freeze-frame says, maybe it’s not such a good idea to give people a gun in a bank! Oh, how the NPR film club tittered at that line!

    This isn’t just misdirection. This is, pure and simple, a goddam lie. The bank did offer this promotion, and when Moore heard about it, he found out that when you open the new account, they give you a certificate. You then have to go to a gun shop to pick up the gun.

    This wasn’t damning enough. So Moore convinced the poor, decent, gullible people who ran that bank that it would be much better publicity for them if they could hand him the gun right there in the bank. Uh, well, um okay. If it will help you with your movie. But the bank did not hand out guns on the premises. Moore created this scene to advance his premise. It’s a funny scene. It is most emphatically not a documentary scene.

    I suppose I should not be upset by Moore’s blatant lies, especially on this issue, because since Bowling for Columbine appeared the 2nd amendment has only become more entrenched. The 1994 Assault Weapons ban has expired and concealed-carry laws are spreading ever further: more women with guns too!

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  94. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    ross
    I don’t need to look at your you tube clips to know that moore is a liar. I told you about the other doco makers, the honest ones,do some research.Oh well I tried.

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  95. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    It seems pretty crazy to me that someone can amass assault rifles, gas cannisters and thousands of rounds of ammunition in a time period of a couple of weeks

    A couple of weeks? Try three or four months.

    Assault rifles? Let’s see, a 12 gauge shotgun and a semiautomatic rifle are hardly assault rifles (for starters, full automatic fire capability is required). The particular type of rifle used, the AR-15, is available here with a standard firearms license. One version even has a silencer for only $7999!

    Thousands of rounds. NZ has no restriction on ammo purchases beyond proof of firearm license.

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  96. big bruv (12,351 comments) says:

    tom

    “the 2nd amendment has only become more entrenched.”

    And you think this is a good thing????

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  97. Nostalgia-NZ (4,686 comments) says:

    About time that victim’s families began to bring civil suits for damages as to the passage, and laws, by which the weapons come into the hands of these perpetrators. Stop the chain.

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  98. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    ‘About time that victim’s families began to bring civil suits for damages as to the passage, and laws, by which the weapons come into the hands of these perpetrators. Stop the chain.”

    Why stop at Guns?

    You seem to be suggesting that even more law will fix the problem. I think you will find that shooting innocent people is already an illegal act under the existing laws.

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  99. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    One day there may well be a President who is brave enough to introduce gun control laws in the USA that would see most guns banned. Until then shocking events such as this will keep happening.

    It’s got nothing to do with the bravery of the president. Introducing laws is not the president’s responsibility – the only exception, the US budget, is an exception created by an Act of Congress.

    Secondly strict gun control has been tried in several states – New York and Illinois spring to mind as well as Washington DC . Yet the impact of such laws in containing gun violence (especially mass shooting sprees) has been somewhat close to fuck-all.

    As for banning most types of guns, I fail to see how this will work. In the Great War, British troops at the start were trained to fire up to 20 aimed shots a minute with a bolt action rifle. The PBK (Poor Bloody Krauts) on the receiving end were convinced they were under machine gun fire in one particular battle.

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  100. Bed Rater (239 comments) says:

    It’s fairly sick but not surprising that news outlets are using the tenuous Batman movie link as a supplementary selling point on their stories.

    It’s fairly surprising to see you buy into that DPF, your call though.

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  101. Nostalgia-NZ (4,686 comments) says:

    It’s less law to control the supply, rather than the aftermath.
    Smarten up.

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  102. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    big bruv is a larf a minute

    first the founding fathers are geniuses for the first amendment(cos he agrees with that one),next he wants a President to unpick the second amendment cos he doesn’t like that bit.

    must be terrible being so bothered by American law.

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  103. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    “One version even has a silencer for only $7999!

    Thousands of rounds. NZ has no restriction on ammo purchases beyond proof of firearm license.”

    This is getting funny ! Are you suggesting that the dangerous part of a gun is the Silencer? Or that loud guns are safer?

    So how much ammunition should you be allowed to buy? Some folk may buy 200 rounds and shoot it off in an afternoon. Another may buy 20 rounds each week and horde it. How do you suggest this is monitored?

    Finally, based on the known facts, how would equate the quantity of ammunition he carried as a factor in the death toll (of 12) ? Maybe in your world bad shots would be allowed to accumulate more ammo?

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  104. kowtow (6,701 comments) says:

    Ah yes metcalph “the mad minute”.Tommy Atkins at his best!

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  105. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    “It’s less law to control the supply, rather than the aftermath.
    Smarten up.”

    Maybe your right and some tough “civil” law suits may stop crazed mass murderers, when the threat of the Electric Chair did not. Is that smart enough?

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  106. big bruv (12,351 comments) says:

    kowtow

    If you had bothered to read the second amendment you will soon realise that there is a bit in there about a militia.

    The problem is that gun loving morons forget about that part, the result is that innocent people are slaughtered time and time again.

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  107. metcalph (1,293 comments) says:

    If you had bothered to read the second amendment you will soon realise that there is a bit in there about a militia.

    Unfortunately when the rest of the rights in the Bill of Rights are being read expansively to preserve people’s liberty, it’s rather difficult to turn around and state that the Second Amendment must be read extremely narrowly.

    Furthermore the Supreme Court has already adjudicated on the question of the second amendment and found (even the liberal dissent) that it establishes an individual right to firearms. So Congress can’t pass a law banning firearms without it being found unconstitutional. They can regulate the possession of firearms but a regulation that prevents most people from having firearms is an unconstitutional infringement of liberty.

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  108. Kea (10,451 comments) says:

    Ok, so Americans give all their guns to the government ( Of course the US government does not kill people !)

    What shall we do about Kitchen Knives?

    During the Osaka school massacre a Janitor killed 8 and seriously wounded 15 others, with a kitchen knife. Also in Japan was one of the worse mass murderers (by a civilian) ever. He killed 30 people with an axe, sword and a shotgun. Interestingly he had no legal access to a firearm. This was in 1938.

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  109. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    Secondly strict gun control has been tried in several states – New York and Illinois spring to mind …

    Ah yes, my old home town of Chicago. Looks like there was a bit of a slaughter there through the month of July, twenty five by gunshots to be precise: you can run the cursor across the dots to find the names – I doubt many others will, especially not the presidential campaign that’s based in the city. No flags at half staff for those victims of guns.

    Still, it’s good to know the city and state has such very strict gun controls, otherwise it would be even worse, no?

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  110. Sideoiler (69 comments) says:

    @ big bruv 9:33 pm
    “If you had bothered to read the second amendment you will soon realise that there is a bit in there about a militia.”
    you need to have another read
    This is what the second amendment actually says.
    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the “people” to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
    The US supreme court has ruled on a number of occasions that the second amendment protects an individuals right to possess firearms. (District of Columbia v. Heller , Mc Donald v. Chicago )

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  111. big bruv (12,351 comments) says:

    Sideoiler

    I have read it plenty of times. Your point about the supreme court is a valid one though. I guess those who are for gun control need to wait for a democratic majority on the bench and then try again.

    They could also improve their chances by waiting for the next school massacre, it’s not as if they are uncommon in the USA given their stupid and moronic attitude towards gun control.

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  112. Sideoiler (69 comments) says:

    I don’t think it will ever happen big bruv.
    The second amendment seems to me not to leave any wriggle room.
    The second amendment says in part,”the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” ie it does not give them the right. it restrains the govt both state and federal from curtailing those rights.

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  113. big bruv (12,351 comments) says:

    I dunno Sideoiler.

    This argument in dissent by Justice Stevens (joined by Breyer, Ginsburg and Souter) leaves plenty of room IMHO.

    “The Amendment’s text does justify a different limitation: the “right to keep and bear arms” protects only a right to possess and use firearms in connection with service in a state-organized militia. Had the Framers wished to expand the meaning of the phrase “bear arms” to encompass civilian possession and use, they could have done so by the addition of phrases such as “for the defense of themselves”

    Whatever your stance on this I refuse to accept that any sane minded person thinks that the gun laws as they stand in the USA are anything but stupid.

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  114. V (660 comments) says:

    “Its illogical, but I don’t intend to see the movie now. I’ll probably watch it at some stage when it hits TV. But Batman will never quite be the same again.”

    Sounds like PC silliness to me.

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  115. Sideoiler (69 comments) says:

    Bruv my stance is pro gun.
    If you examine the laws on a state by state basis those states with the most restrictive gun laws and no CCW would seem to have the highest violent crime rates.
    I don’t think the framers had only the state or militia in mind when the 2nd amendment was written, if you read the first amendment it refers only to the Press and the “people” and I doubt that any court would say that freedom of speech by an individual is not protected.
    “This argument in dissent by Justice Stevens (joined by Breyer, Ginsburg and Souter) ” do you have a link you could post for this I wouldn’t mind a read

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  116. V (660 comments) says:

    An excellent guest post:

    http://www.thereformedbroker.com/2012/07/20/a-former-marines-plea-for-common-sense-on-gun-control/

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  117. ross69 (3,637 comments) says:

    > Not as hard as Mr Moore tried though …

    Tom, why are you so upset by the truth? The bank gave away guns with new accounts….you can make as many excuses as you like but nothing will alter this fact. Indeed, the advert linked to shows that to be a fact.

    http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-39a.html

    Please tell me which banks in NZ give away guns when you open a new account.

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  118. Fletch (5,720 comments) says:

    In a society where people play violent video games every day (that are getting more and more realistic), and where movies and TV are becoming more violent, it doesn’t surprise me that the society will soak it up. I’m not saying these things are entirely to blame, but it MUST have some effect. It can’t not.

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  119. Nostalgia-NZ (4,686 comments) says:

    kea 9.33

    I’m talking about the supply of weapons, you’re focusing on the final act. Any family effected has the right to be concerned by the chain of events that put firearms in this guys hands. First thing, is take away the means and opportunity.

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  120. Nostalgia-NZ (4,686 comments) says:

    Kea 9.35

    Defeatist crap. Just because there are other ways to mass murder doesn’t mean that easiest means to do so (auto weapons etc) should be overlooked.

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  121. nasska (9,502 comments) says:

    What those who would disarm the public are really doing, consciously or otherwise, is dismantling the intent behind the second amendment. The intention of the founders was that the state should never oppress or become greater than the people who it should serve. Their premise was that the existence of an armed citizenry would provide a counterbalance should government become too powerful.

    Looking around me I admire their foresight. Those calling for further gun control are merely ennablers for out of control state interference & eventual world government.

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  122. tom hunter (4,004 comments) says:

    Tom, why are you so upset by the truth? The bank gave away guns with new accounts …

    … which had to be picked up at a gun store, which made Moore’s whole scene a lie – you understand that of course, but a lie in service of a left-wing narrative is perfectly acceptable to you – like Moore’s paens to Castro’s health care service.

    I refuse to accept that any sane minded person thinks that the gun laws as they stand in the USA are anything but stupid.

    I was rather struck by the similarity of this comment from another blog:

    Australia has very strict gun laws following several mass shootings. People get shot but mainly as a result of gangs who fight their vendettas out between themselves. It is rare for people to shot in domestic violence or random attacks. Most people don’t carry or own guns. Americans would do well to consider that many non Americans think it is insane to be able to buy a firearm off the counter.

    Which the blogger then has fun with:

    Actually, if the Australian Bureau of Criminology can be believed, Americans would be insane to concern themselves with what non-Americans think about American gun rights.

    In 2002 — five years after enacting its gun ban — the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

    Even Australia’s Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

    The blogger then proceeds to show that between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease in murder rate (yay gun control) – while America’s rate dropped 31.7 percent (!).

    Interestingly, during the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. Sexual assault — Australia’s equivalent term for rape — increased 29.9 percent, and overall, Australia’s violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

    At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.

    I’m not going to infer causality in either direction, but those stats show that it is fair to conclude that gun control does not have the affect on murder and violent crime that common wisdom would suggest. There is however, a question around the old saying about Americans being quite a polite people – that an armed society is a polite society:

    The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations. Twenty-six percent of English citizens — roughly one-quarter of the population — have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized. The United States didn’t even make the “top 10″ list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime.

    I wonder why that might be? Considering that the only crime I ever suffered in the US was the theft of a cell phone from our car in an unlocked garage on a snowy winters night – compared to the three burglaries here in NZ in the last decade – those stats are probably not out of line. America as a safer society than NZ? Now there’s a truth-telling paradigm shaking possibility.

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  123. mikenmild (8,790 comments) says:

    I wonder how the US stacks up on a comparison of its homicide rate against other developed nations.

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  124. Ed Snack (1,535 comments) says:

    Have to love the way the ABC network went immediately on air and stated that the shooter was affiliated with the Tea Party movement on the basis that there was a “James Holmes” in the area so involved. Pity it was a different person with the same name, and the oh so lame apology.

    What is it about the MSM in the USA that they seem to have express orders to find a “Tea Party” link with every violent incident ? And yet the actual perpetrator has some possible links with the Occupy movement (may have been arrested but not charged at an Occupy protest), not worth reporting on that …as well ? Like associating Sarah Palin with the Giffords shooting, utterly untrue (another leftist nutter, obsessed with Giffords from before Palin was nationally known), but if forms the basis of a narrative that the left in general wants spread: It’s THEM that’s the nasty, violent, racist sort. And the MSM acts as the waterboys carrying the message so willingly.

    One thing too about concealed carry and massacres, when ever there’s been a massacre and ther is at least one person shooting back, the massacres diminish drastically in impact. You don’t need to be your magical “head shot on a moving target at 20 metres” pistol expert, that’s sheer misdirection from the gun control enthusiasts, the mere fact of shooting back is very nearly enough to change the situation. In warfare firefights it’s called suppressing fire. One person firing back, might make the firer more of a target (and they weren’t already ?) will almost always completely distract the assailant. True, not always, some are so obsessive or possibly drugged that they won’t notice, but most will, instinctively. I’d posit that had there been a single opposing person armed with even a standard handgun that the number of dead would have been lower, though we never get to really test alternative futures. This does seem to be borne out by what has been experienced; and it also seems possibly true that mass shooters specifically target “gun-free” areas to carry out their rampages to minimize the chance of interference.

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  125. mikenmild (8,790 comments) says:

    Ed
    So if more people carried guns, everyone would be safer?

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  126. Ed Snack (1,535 comments) says:

    Mike, not necessarily, but the studies to confirm or deny aren’t conclusive. It does seem safer in concealed carry places, at least by some studies, so my point is that the “ban all guns” knee-jerk reaction isn’t necessarily the reasoned response. Also the Australian experience with placing much more restrictive laws on guns does not appear to have led to a reduction in gun related deaths.

    FES and others have pointed out that in a real world, banning guns means that only criminals will have guns; a slogan perhaps but a remarkable apt one.

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  127. mikenmild (8,790 comments) says:

    It would be surprising if there was no correlation between gun laws and the very high homicide rate ni the US; but I suppose there could be many other contributing factors.

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  128. cha (3,533 comments) says:

    Hmm, batshit crazy when heroism under fire is feminising but when it’s in a movie theatre it’s what men do in a good christian country.

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  129. F E Smith (3,273 comments) says:

    tom hunter,

    your 9.02 comment is just fantastic.

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  130. mikenmild (8,790 comments) says:

    Well, I don’t know what else you would expect from Bryan Fischer. A deepy disturbed individual.

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