General Debate 11 August 2012

August 11th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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93 Responses to “General Debate 11 August 2012”

  1. Manolo (12,639 comments) says:

    A great man, an icon, has fallen from grace: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/7458321/Love-steps-down-over-1m-deposits
    Tui ad.

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  2. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    ‘Someone Else’ did it again

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  3. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    ‘Love lost.’

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  4. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Profits on Carbon Credits Drive Output of a Harmful Gas

    Since 2005 the 19 plants receiving the waste gas payments have profited handsomely from an unlikely business: churning out more harmful coolant gas so they can be paid to destroy its waste by-product. The high output keeps the prices of the coolant gas irresistibly low, discouraging air-conditioning companies from switching to less-damaging alternative gases.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/world/asia/incentive-to-slow-climate-change-drives-output-of-harmful-gases.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&hp

    Does anything the corrupt UN does actually work?
    I bet the fat cats ‘Carbon traders’ are happy though.
    The biggest backers of the Global Warming scam and carbon trading are the oil companies, big banks and the so called ‘environmental heroes’.
    The Global Warming-Climate changing industry is worth billions in subsidies, ‘carbon trading’ and ‘research’ grants.

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  5. joe bloggs (126 comments) says:

    The police raid on Kim Dotcom has descended to the level of farce with the news that the FBI were looking for a “Doomsday device” that Dotcom would use to wipe out all evidence of internet piracy around the world.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10826176

    That has to be a contender for the best Tui’s moment of the year…

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  6. 3-coil (1,184 comments) says:

    Manolo (8:50am)…and I notice that Sir Ngatata Love has adopted the Sargeant Shultz defence: “I know nothing”.

    Obviously when you’re a member of the Maori aristocracy, you don’t even notice when another $1 million deposit sloshes into your personal bank account. It must be difficult to remember where they all come from.

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  7. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    There’s still one or two more possibilities at the Olympics, especially in the Kayak 200m, but overall a very creditable performance from Kiwis. Another gold and silver overnight.

    I wish some of the commentators would perform as well. I guess they have a lot of airtime to fill, but there’s some ridiculous comments. Like in the pole vault this morning – “He has to get over the bar”.

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  8. minto57 (197 comments) says:

    Shearer is Living in a Poofters Paradise

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  9. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Kim Dotcom has a new song out. Love the kids tee shirts!

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  10. Sofia (785 comments) says:

    Others backed Mr Key. One wrote on the TVNZ website: “Great to see we have a Prime Minister that is father first and foremost. That is his most important job in life and he obviously takes it seriously.”

    “… being a father is not something you can delegate.” – David Farrar
    Gay marriage will destroy the family unit as we know it … – several kiwibloggers

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  11. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    The biggest backers of the Global Warming scam and carbon trading are the oil companies
    :lol:

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  12. wat dabney (3,464 comments) says:

    One can only agree with Dotcom’s lawyer: ‘”What this comes down to is a woefully incompetent and inept performance by the New Zealand police at all stages and at all levels of this operation.Those responsible for planning are shown to be deficient in their judgment to a serious degree.”‘

    Contrast that with Detective Inspector Grant Wormald ‘who oversaw the operation for the Organised and Financial Crime Agency, (Ofcanz), said the operation was an example of the “thorough and professional execution of a search warrant”.’

    When you’re arresting a supervillian in his hollowed-out volcano perhaps, and not some fat nerd in his family home.

    Here’s some previously unseen footage of the Detective Inspector in action, this time moving in to apprehend a dairy owner for selling a packet of cigarettes to a minor:

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  13. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    My opinion on Kim Dotcom and Megaupload:

    It reeks of Political interference from USA and the FBI. Obama wanted to gloat over catching one of the World’s biggest pirates, supposedly.
    It has turned to shit now

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  14. hj (5,705 comments) says:

    Kennedy Graham:
    The tragic deaths of our soldiers in Bamyan province last weekend hit home how dangerous the work of New Zealand’s provincial reconstruction team really is.

    For ten years this deployment has been open-ended with little thought to extraction.

    It is time now for the New Zealand Government to get our soldiers home. Rather than looking at some-time in 2013 we should be doing what we can to pull-out this year.
    ….
    Cannon to left of ‘em
    cannon to right of ‘em…

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  15. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    Lol

    just received my tax return for 2011 back from the IRS. It puzzles me!!! They are questioning how many dependents I claimed. I guess it was because of my response to the question: “List all dependents?”I replied: 12 million illegal immigrants; 3 million crack heads; 42 million unemployed people on food stamps, 2 million people in over 243 prisons; Half of Mexico; and 535 persons in the U.S. House and Senate.” Evidently, this was NOT an acceptable answer. I KEEP ASKING MYSELF, WHOM DID I MISS?

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  16. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    there’s some ridiculous comments. Like in the pole vault this morning – “He has to get over the bar”

    Did they pad it out as well Pete? You know like, “Really? And how does that work, Graham? Well Bob, …”

    I mean given they do this thing for a living you’d think the normal thing would be to have all the bios at one’s fingertips so if you do run out of new words you can always glance down and say something from them. But then we are talking about sport commentators aren’t we. That’s perhaps a bit much. For them to read, I mean.

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  17. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Steve

    Don’t neglect the possibility of very large donations from Hollywood moguls to Obama’s coming election campaign hinging on the destruction of Megaupload.

    If so the integrity & impartiality of our Justice system is collateral to the election hopes of the greatest incompetent ever to front the USA.

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  18. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    ”Big Oil” and Global Warming

    ‘Hockey stick’ Gore and his UN mate Maurice Strong have made millions and Goldman Sachs, BP, Exxon and Shell (Among others) are also profiting from the global warming scam.
    Gore made millions with his Chicago Climate Exchange, backed by both Obama and Maurice Strong. The largest shareholder in the Exchange is Goldman Sachs who was a big contributor to Obama’s campaign, and was protected by the Obama government during the financial crisis.
    Maurice Strong, who became the first Executive Director of the United Nations Environment Programme, started as an oil entrepreneur in Alberta. And, after he left the UN he became the president of Power Corporation of Canada and later the Chief Executive Officer of Petro-Canada.
    Some of the architects of “cap and trade” include Ken Lay, ENRON CEO, and John Browne, the CEO of BP. Exxon Mobil chief executive Rex Tillerson has also been a vocal supporter a direct tax on carbon dioxide emissions while BP, Statoil and Sonatrach are earning millions of dollars from a CO2 capture and storage project in Algeria and other ‘environmental’ initiatives such as (subsidised) ‘alternative energy production.
    Rising prices for oil will be picked up by the consumers and won’t hurt the oil companies. What they lose in sales, as demand decreases, they will pick up in tax payer subsidised ‘alternative energy’ production and carbon trading. “Carbon credits” sold by government-sanctioned “brokerage firms” (Controlled by big financial institutions and ‘environmental profiteers such as Gore and Strong) will then be transferred to companies in payment for their “green products” such as solar panels (BP), natural gas (which BP controls) and wind turbines. The whole ‘Global Warming’ and ‘cap and trade’ movement is a boon for the oil companies.

    http://www.greenchipstocks.com/report/carbon-trading-the-worlds-next-biggest-market/107

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  19. Fairfacts Media (370 comments) says:

    Talking of Obama, there is a new book about Him.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1451677871/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1451677871&linkCode=as2&tag=wwwviolentkicom

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    BECAUSE NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW!

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    Tom Fitton of Judicial Watch, America’s largest nonpartisan government watchdog (challenging George W. Bush as well as Bill Clinton), has been investigating Obama ever since he splashed onto the national scene in 2006. Now Fitton exposes devastating secrets the Obama administration has desperately fought—even in court—to keep from the American public. For a while, the Obama stonewall seemed to be holding. Until now. And the revelations are astonishing.

    Judicial Watch has unearthed the truth behind such high-profile issues as the bailouts, Obamacare, Guantanamo, Obama’s true ties to Bill Ayers and to the Black Panthers voting intimidation scandal, and the Constitution-defying government czars. He reveals Obama’s personal war against FOX News, his real link to ACORN, and his radical Chicago connections. Through scores of smoking-gun government files, some replicated here and many unearthed after lengthy court battles, Fitton also discloses the facts of the Obama-backed $535-million loan guarantee to Solyndra, promoted by the president as a model for economic recovery—only months before its disastrous bankruptcy filing. Here too is the truth behind the gunrunning scandal, code-named Fast and Furious, which was a program generated in secrecy by the U.S. government that supplied thousands of firearms to murderous criminals in Mexico—an unconscionable act, and only one in a series of historical lows for an administration that few, if any, major media in this country dare to expose. This book details how the Obama machine is aggressively employing Chicago-style tactics to steal, if necessary, the 2012 elections. And how Judicial Watch is prepared to go to court with historic lawsuits to make sure the elections are fair and honest.

    Why do Obama supporters turn a blind eye to his astoundingly unethical and abusive approach to governing this country? The Corruption Chronicles boldly, honestly, and factually makes the case that the federal government is now off the rails and out of control, and has literally built its foundation on broken promises, fatal miscalculations, and a cynical manipulation of its trusting public. But it’s not over. Tom Fitton and Judicial Watch are proof that the Tea Party approach to government corruption can make a difference. A grassroots group can take on the president, the Congress, and the judiciary, and finally force the government to be held accountable. The uncontestable facts are here, in The Corruption Chronicles. To see what is true, you only have to look.

    THE FULLY DOCUMENTED FACTS BEHIND:

    • The Solyndra Debacle

    • Obama’s Watergate: Operation Fast and Furious

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    • The Unprecedented Threat to the Integrity of the 2012 Elections

    • The Czar Investigation Stonewall

    • The Undermining of Our Nation’s Immigration Laws

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  20. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    When you’re arresting a supervillian in his hollowed-out volcano perhaps, and not some fat nerd in his family home.

    Now that they’ve explained the reason for the helicopter I actually agree with the way they did it. Salient facts:

    1) Face it, the yanks are an important relationship. When the feds ask little ole NZ to do something serious like this, the agencies involved would have to be mental not to give it their full attention. Who gives a fuck what the public might think about it, is quite frankly the only and correct angle to take on this, when you take on this sort of operation.

    2) The highest levels were involved with this. For those of us who’ve ever worked for any big organisation, this is like being ordered by the CEO and executive team to do something, use any resources you like, but FFS do it right. Now if you’re given an order like that, which is what this was, WTF are YOU going to do? Exactly.

    3) It’s entirely reasonable under the circumstances to use the helicopter for speed and entirely reasonable to use the STG given that’s the only police unit trained to operate from a helicopter. The public might think it’s OTT but again, the point is not to be politically correct but to get the job done, whatever it takes, with alacrity and professionalism. That’s the point and that’s the only point.

    Now the question of whether or not the yanks were right to make the request in the first place and take the action they have on this to date, is another question and my view on this is that Hollyweird Studios have exercised their lobbying power and Dotcom is the chosen target as an example. And they will proceed accordingly. And that’s entirely dishonest, unnecessary and wrong. I wish it was possible to engage the STG and make helicopter raids on the homes of those Hollyweird studio execs and give them the same treatment they’ve given Dotcom. That would be justice. But as for whether or not the NZ Police are the bad guys or alternatively, the Keystone Cops in this, in my view, they’re neither of those things. They did what was asked of them professionally and competently. (Apart from the i-phone thing – that was SNAFU material right there and thank fuck nothing happened – imagine. Then it would have been a cluster-SNAFU. But hey, nothing did, so it’s all OK. Just put it in the after action review for next time.)

    But the fucking media is doing precisely what it does when it gets the wrong end of the stick which it does about a dozen times a day, aren’t they. I mean all of them are running a few paras on Davidson’s procedural point about the authorisation, which doesn’t matter in anyway at all but the media, idiots that they are, have grabbed onto it like a dog with a bone and won’t let it go, thank fuck Mary Wilson’s on holiday right now, imagine what she would have done with it on Friday’s Checkpoint.

    Edit: nasska, snap.

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  21. wat dabney (3,464 comments) says:

    What a complete load of crap.

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  22. Paulus (2,299 comments) says:

    Is Robertson now starting to make his move to oust Shearer ?

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  23. noskire (797 comments) says:

    Dyslexics of the world untie!

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  24. F E Smith (3,275 comments) says:

    reid,

    I disagree entirely. The reason for the US preferring charges is irrelevant to the NZ Courts. If there are problems with the charges then they can be challenged (somewhat) during the extradition hearings and attacked fully in the US. If a nation with which we have an extradition agreement makes a lawful request, then NZ should comply.

    However, the raid on the Dotcom mansion was way OTT. When it comes to executing a search warrant, the Police should use reasonable means. It was irrelevant who the end beneficiary of the prosecution evidence was, the NZ police must act according to NZ law and principles.

    The highest levels were involved with this. For those of us who’ve ever worked for any big organisation, this is like being ordered by the CEO and executive team to do something, use any resources you like, but FFS do it right. Now if you’re given an order like that, which is what this was, WTF are YOU going to do? Exactly.

    Again, it was irrelevant what levels of seniority were involved.  Exactly the same laws and principles apply no matter who is initiating the action.  We are not talking about a multinational company, but the NZ Police, the two are not analagous.  Anyway, the NZ Police have a large amount of experience in executing search warrants, so there is no need to ‘impress’ the ‘CEO’.  They just need to do their job according to law.

    Plus, I have read about (in disclosure) raids on gang houses that were not as OTT as this.  For the Dotcom mansion they really didn’t need the AOS, let alone the STG.

    It’s entirely reasonable under the circumstances to use the helicopter for speed and entirely reasonable to use the STG given that’s the only police unit trained to operate from a helicopter. The public might think it’s OTT but again, the point is not to be politically correct but to get the job done, whatever it takes, with alacrity and professionalism. That’s the point and that’s the only point.

    Absolute rubbish. The second point of your first sentence presupposes the first point being correct.  It isn’t. The police could have completed the job ‘with alacrity and professionalism’ by driving to the mansion from the nearest (large) police station.  There was no need to go by helicopter at all.

    I think that it is fair to say that you have this entirely backwards!!!

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  25. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,787 comments) says:

    Olympics is almost over. Just a few scraps left over now.

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  26. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    The whole Dotcom raid was done in style just for the Media. Look at me, look at me

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  27. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    Olympics is almost over. Just a few scraps left over now.

    I never got around to watching any of it …

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  28. Scott Chris (5,682 comments) says:

    Like in the pole vault this morning – “He has to get over the bar”.

    As a recovering alkie I can sympathize with that comment.

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  29. Chuck Bird (4,415 comments) says:

    Airline ‘treating men like predators’

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/7454961/Airline-treating-men-like-predators?comment_msg=posted#post_comment

    This despicable and illogical policy still applies to Air New Zealand. Mr Key is also Minister of Tourism. How does it look for a male tourist to be treated like this on the country’s national airline? A male passenger cannot sit next to an unaccompanied child but there is not problem for a homosexual flight attendant to sit next to an unaccompanied boy.

    As far as I know the only case of sexual abuse or harassment that went public on an Air NZ flight was a female flight attendant shoving her crotch in the face of a male passenger.

    We live in strange times when the PM cares mores about the feelings of a minority of a minority yet is unconcerned about the message this illogical policy sends to children about men.

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  30. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    For once it wasn’t the fault of ‘Someone Else’
    Give the man a beer for his responsibilty.
    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/14524812/bus-victim-accepts-blame/

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  31. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    FES, you’re arguing legally, I’m arguing politically. There are different rules in each arena.

    However, the raid on the Dotcom mansion was way OTT. When it comes to executing a search warrant, the Police should use reasonable means. It was irrelevant who the end beneficiary of the prosecution evidence was, the NZ police must act according to NZ law and principles.

    Quite agree, legally. But who cares, politically? Do you want to be the MFAT official in Washington explaining to the US how Dotcom was able to wipe the servers because you didn’t adopt the required tactics to stop him from doing so?

    Again, it was irrelevant what levels of seniority were involved. Exactly the same laws and principles apply no matter who is initiating the action. We are not talking about a multinational company, but the NZ Police, the two are not analagous. Anyway, the NZ Police have a large amount of experience in executing search warrants, so there is no need to ‘impress’ the ‘CEO’. They just need to do their job according to law.

    Of course they do but they didn’t break the law in how they went about it, did they. Apart from an arguable point as to reasonableness. Which wasn’t arguable, until they revealed why they went about it the way they did (because Dotcom or his staff could have wiped the servers).

    Absolute rubbish. The second point of your first sentence presupposes the first point being correct. It isn’t. The police could have completed the job ‘with alacrity and professionalism’ by driving to the mansion from the nearest (large) police station. There was no need to go by helicopter at all.

    See my first two points. To repeat, legally I quite agree with you FES and no doubt that and more is what Davidson is raising. However politically, it could have literally meant the end of NZ’s involvement in the TPP if the raid was conducted the way you recommend and if Dotcom had initiated a ‘doomsday’ device. Now personally I’d clap and cheer because I personally hate the TPP, but the country doesn’t and its this govt’s main FP initiative. They would consider it an utter disaster if that happened, because the NZ Police didn’t proceed in such a way as not just to prevent it from happening, but to be seen to prevent it from happening. And I realise legally, the seen to be happening bit is just the element which defence lawyers pray for specifically so they can rip it to bits in court, but in the court of public opinion and the corridors of power, that seen to be done bit is equally critical, for different reasons.

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  32. F E Smith (3,275 comments) says:

    reid,

     I always worry when people begin justifying unreasonable actions because it makes ‘political’ sense.  Brings to mind stories of the Star Chamber, and political trials where the judges told the jury that they really should convict the person because it is the right thing to do.  

    Yes, I would happily be the MFAT official informing the US.  I have no problems justifying a nation that still sees its residents as being innocent until proven guilty, and acts accordingly. 

    politically, it could have literally meant the end of NZ’s involvement in the TPP if the raid was conducted the way you recommend and if Dotcom had initiated a ‘doomsday’ device.

    Are you saying that he couldn’t have initiated something like that when he noticed helicopters landing on his lawn, as opposed to someone knocking at his front door? Yeah, I don’t buy that. 

    I realise legally, the seen to be happening bit is just the element which defence lawyers pray for specifically so they can rip it to bits in court

    I don’t get that.  As you point out, the actions of the STG were legal.  We can, and do, criticise them, but the actions remain legal.  There is no benefit to the defence in that way.  The criticism is principle based, not law based, and is one way that lawyers have held authorities to account over the last few centuries.  

    When what is reasonable is subverted by the authorities for political reasons, we should all worry. 

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  33. KevinH (1,129 comments) says:

    Paul Davison Q.C. acting on behalf of Kim Dotcom is correct to question the Police use of helicopters and the STG in response to a percieved fear that Dotcom possessed a doomsday device capable of deleting evidence because such a device is a matter of fiction, and file execute programmes designed to delete servers have limited application due to adminstrative controls exercised by system administrators based at file server locations.
    Therefore that excuse advanced by Police is at best a weak argument.

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  34. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    When what is reasonable is subverted by the authorities for political reasons, we should all worry.

    Well welcome to the real world. Why did Hulun agree to send troops to Afghanistan? Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan invasions were reasonable, both have turned out to be major resource and mineral grabs (who woulda thunk) but Afghanistan happens to be prima facie reasonable enough to allow politicians to justify it to the gullible and the foolish using the war-on-terror excuse. And that is costing us both treasure and blood. But how come the NZ effort in Afghanistan which by comparison to Dotcom’s police tactics is an elephant to a flea is considered by most to be “reasonable” and Dotcom’s police tactics aren’t, when both happened for the same reason: political expediency but both have prima facie rationales?

    in response to a percieved fear that Dotcom possessed a doomsday device capable of deleting evidence because such a device is a matter of fiction…Therefore that excuse advanced by Police is at best a weak argument.

    I quite agree with your conclusion KevinH IF your premise is correct. I don’t know if it is or isn’t and I’m assuming it isn’t. See if I were the Police commander and became aware, perhaps from the Americans, that this device was an issue, then I would make damn sure by checking with the IT experts in the GCHQ that such devices really weren’t just fantasy and I also would have made efforts to find out precisely how they worked in order to inform the operations planning. Now if that didn’t happen that’s monstrous incompetence of monumental proportions and since the STG were involved I’m assuming the commander of that particular group isn’t that. But IF such devices ARE fantasy then I agree with you, but unless you know for certain about that Kevin because you or someone you know has the relevant expertise then forgive me if I don’t agree with you just quite yet.

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  35. Harriet (4,010 comments) says:

    Scott Chris#

    “….As a recovering alkie I can sympathize with that comment….”

    That explains a lot. :cool:

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  36. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    I wonder if this is going to become an issue?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9464589/Barack-Obama-and-Mitt-Romney-call-for-gays-to-be-allowed-to-join-Boy-Scouts.html

    It depends on the global media doesn’t it.

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  37. thedavincimode (6,131 comments) says:

    Scott Chris

    That’s twice you’ve [touchy feely font] “shared” today. Please stop.

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  38. thedavincimode (6,131 comments) says:

    Reid

    It’s only the Catholic scout leaders that concern them. :)

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  39. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Reid

    You’re wrong regards STG only able to deploy from a helicopter, the AOS can as can oodles around the place trained for the cannabis recovery operation.

    There was just a massive misjudgment when this was undertaken. My imagings are that – big raid, big result, big positive headlines, instead its turned and will continue to turn to shit big time.

    The Headhunters and Angels regularly get warrants executed on them, I have yet to witness or hear of a helicopter deployment on any address in View Road or Brentwood Ave

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  40. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    You’re wrong regards STG only able to deploy from a helicopter, the AOS can as can oodles around the place trained for the cannabis recovery operation.

    Only quoting what the paper said Paul who was recounting what the police witness said in court. Half way down. But yeah, I’d be surprised if at least some of the AOS couldn’t as well. Maybe a bit of lily gilding…

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10825903

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  41. Viking2 (10,737 comments) says:

    KevinH (775) Says:
    August 11th, 2012 at 12:10 pm

    Paul Davison Q.C. acting on behalf of Kim Dotcom is correct to question the Police use of helicopters and the STG in response to a percieved fear that Dotcom possessed a doomsday device capable of deleting evidence because such a device is a matter of fiction, and file execute programmes designed to delete servers have limited application due to adminstrative controls exercised by system administrators based at file server locations.
    Therefore that excuse advanced by Police is at best a weak argument.

    Rather a red herring because I beleive that the Servers were already impounded in other countriess at the time of the raid.
    Then of course there is the mall matter of bank accounts that are still forzen.

    IMHO Wormald watches too many sifi films. Darth Vader and all that. what a complete fucking idiot to beleive and defend the FBI whose history is l;ittered with actions of this nature.

    One needs only Google “Mc Carthyism and FBI” to see their history is entrenched in this stuff.
    https://www.google.com/webhp?btnG=Google+Search#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=Ma+Carthyism+%2Cfbi&oq=Ma+Carthyism+%2Cfbi&gs_l=hp.3..0i13i30j0i8i13i30j0i8i13i10i30j0i8i13i30.2149.22533.0.23630.19.18.1.0.0.0.503.4997.2-14j3j0j1.18.0.les%3B..0.0…1c.TIVK01O0sUw&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=bb84fb6d2f690171&biw=1024&bih=592

    The most famous examples of McCarthyism include the speeches, investigations, and hearings of Senator McCarthy himself; the Hollywood blacklist, associated with hearings conducted by the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC); and the various anti-communist activities of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) under Director J. Edgar Hoover. McCarthyism was a widespread social and cultural phenomenon that affected all levels of society and was the source of a great deal of debate and conflict in the United States.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

    All rather amuzing considering that Hollywood itself was subject to much investigation by the FBI for being “communist” Oh how the poacher became gamekeeper when it suited them.

    Oh and for those that need to know;
    http://antiwarcommittee.org/2011/06/22/mccarthyism-and-the-fbi%E2%80%99s-attacks-on-the-queer-community/

    and just in case you think that the FBI are all sweetness and light, they are becoming the Internal Terrorists of the uSA.
    http://www.progressive.org/0901/roth0102.html

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  42. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    “A great man, an icon, has fallen from grace”

    They be droppin like flys..doug montrose graham , incompetence and dodgyness , love..theft …geez whats goin on we dont know about.

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  43. si_rangi (60 comments) says:

    The Dotcom raid was a bit like the Urewera raids…the police love playing dress up and pretending they are navy seals…

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  44. Redbaiter (6,482 comments) says:

    In a country that truly respected the rights of individuals, the Dotcom raid would never have happened.

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  45. F E Smith (3,275 comments) says:

    Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan invasions were reasonable, both have turned out to be major resource and mineral grabs (who woulda thunk) but Afghanistan happens to be prima facie reasonable enough to allow politicians to justify it to the gullible and the foolish using the war-on-terror excuse.

    I don’t like conflating domestic issues with international ones.  I had and have no issue with the invasion of Afghanistan.  I have more issues, legally speaking, with Iraq but I am very happy that Saddam Hussein is gone.  

    Just to note that I have no issue with the fact of the raid on the Dotcom mansion.  None at all.  Executing a search warrant was a reasonable action based upon the US goverment’s request.  I have an issue with how the raid was carried out, and the subsequent behaviour/attitudes of Crown counsel involved in the case.

    V2,

    Well, McCarthy was mostly on the money, regardless of what the apologists for the communist spies say.

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  46. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    But F E , even though he may have been on the money, surely you have a problem with the way the “McCarthy hearings” were done legally speaking, so therefore surely findings are / were illegal and therefore no findings.

    And I wonder if the rabid conservatives ( Fletch, Lucia etc) whom for Joe should be a poster boy are happy that he and Hoover were homo’s, surely this couldn’t be true, right wing homo’s, perish the thought

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  47. flipper (3,274 comments) says:

    Dotcom… yep, all custard. I bet that Molesworth Street wishes they had never heard of him.

    However…

    What about a new thread that, strangely enough, comes from this am’s NZ Horrid ? The following seems like a good idea:

    Should we pay rego as an extra fuel tax?
    By Alastair Sloane

    5:30 AM Saturday Aug 11, 2012

    The MTA says paying registration fees at the pump will cut costs and share the burden more equitably. Photo / Dean Purcell

    Adding the vehicle registration fee to the price of fuel would save the government many millions of dollars in paper work, says the Motor Trade Association.

    It would also remove the burden on courts handling the roughly 250,000 offence notices – many of which go uncollected – issued each year against unlicensed vehicles.

    The MTA says it would help Government lower the annual compliance costs of the warrant of fitness, vehicle registration, and the certificate of fitness and transport services licensing systems.

    The Ministry of Transport and NZ Transport Agency are meeting transport groups to find ways to streamline the licensing system.

    Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee has said the reform could save millions of dollars in unnecessary costs and time for households, businesses and the government.

    MTS spokesman Ian Stronach said including licensing fees at the pump would mean that drivers couldn’t avoid the costs of licensing and the need for an expensive label system could be eliminated.

    “It would be fairer to all road users with everyone paying in proportion to their use of the roads,” he said.
    ++++

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  48. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Mitt Romney to announce his choice for Vice President this weekend.

    Mitt Romney will announce his choice for Vice President in Norfolk, Virginia at 8:45am EST Saturday.
    Location of announcement: USS Wisconsin.

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  49. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    What did the Nazis really do?

    http://projectcamelot.org/richard_hoagland.html

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  50. F E Smith (3,275 comments) says:

    surely you have a problem with the way the “McCarthy hearings” were done legally speaking, so therefore surely findings are / were illegal and therefore no findings.

    Not really.  After all, a US Senate committee has very wide ranging powers and his one was tasked with investigating matters that it thought appropriate.  Given what we know now about the extent of communist infiltration and espionage in the US at the time, as accurately disclosed by Whittaker Chambers and Elizabeth Bentley, the issue definitely needed to be investigated. Certainly there was nothing illegal in the process or the issues.

    His style was certainly OTT, no doubt about that.  I myself do not approve of brow-beating witnesses, although rigorous cross-examination I have no issue with. The thing is that it probably didn’t matter how he went about it, he still would have been lambasted by the press.  Of course, given what we know now from the Venona intercepts and information from Soviet archives, we shouldn’t be surprised at the opposition in the media.

    What does surprise me is that there are people, almost all on the left, that think that Alger Hiss and/or the Rosenbergs were innocent!

     Even though I disapprove of the style of McCarthy, I cannot see how his Committee’s findings could be that suspect.   If anything, they didn’t uncover as much as there was to uncover!  Of course, by demonising a relatively unlikeable person, the left wing manage to distract from the real issue of that era, which was the wholesale co-operation of the left with Soviet Russia in such a way as to either be, or be close to, treason.  That wasn’t limited to the USA, of course, as much of the west was targeted.

    I know about J Edgar’s cross-dressing, but I wasn’t aware of the allegation that McCarthy was gay.  I note that the wiki article on McCarthy says that most notable biographers of McCarthy don’t accept that allegation.

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  51. F E Smith (3,275 comments) says:

    oh, reid, please. Conspiracy theories? Really?

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  52. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    Data driven, FES. You want to argue? Argue with the data.

    I would have thought a lawyer’s mind would be quite comfortable with that.

    Although you have to be good at suspending judgement until the end.

    But no, no “conspiracy theories” here, I don’t bother posting those. Sure. It may have aspects you find contradict your existing worldview. This doesn’t make it wrong.

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  53. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    FES

    http://www.nndb.com/people/490/000051337/

    Can you imagine any politician not defending that allegation if was plainly untrue?

    Gore Vidal mentions it constantly in several of his essays and interviews…Aside from the fact that quite as many faggots like war as hetrosexualists (Cardinal Spellman, Senator Joe McCarthy, General Walker) the argument makes no sense… Sex in Politics ,Playboy 1979, Gore Vidal

    …Re J.Edgar ..In the FBI the couple were known as “J. Edna and Mother Tolson”. However, fellow homosexual, Truman Capote, preferred the names, “Johnny and Clyde”. Mafia boss, Meyer Lansky, obtained photographic evidence of Hoover’s homosexuality and was able to use this to stop the Federal Bureau of Investigation from looking too closely into

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAtolson.htm

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  54. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    Further to 4:59

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  55. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    PEB: give it a rest man…we’ll be back on gay bloody marriage next…

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  56. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Other “Reality” alti

    If you are thinking any one is making money on the Chicago Climate Exchange I have a bridge you may be interested in Send 10,000 dollars to my swiss acount and I will send you details

    but wait there is more

    The BP solar business is Free with the bridge just send 10,000 now to my Swiss account and I will give you the BP solar panel manufacturing business free

    Its always best mr alti to check story’s from unknown sources else you can make an arse of your self——opps to late

    :lol:

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  57. Reid (15,594 comments) says:

    Griff you’re an idiot.

    Buy gold and silver like anything because:

    the USD is timed to collapse immediately after the US election
    Nibiru arrives
    Hulun becomes S-G years earlier than anyone thought possible, causing immediate collapse of the entire world govt as we used to know it

    Der, crikey and what about this, don’t you understand.

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  58. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Reid

    All minor stumbling blocks on the pathway of life….you failed to mention same sex marriage!

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  59. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    I certainly will not be trading on the Chicago Climate Exchange It closed last year

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  60. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    A bit on those thieves and charlatans Al Gore and Maurice Strong:

    The tawdry tale of the top two global warming gurus in the business world goes all the way back to Earth Day, April 17, 1995 when the future author of “An Inconvenient Truth” travelled to Fall River, Massachusetts, to deliver a green sermon at the headquarters of Molten Metal Technology Inc. (MMTI).  MMTI was a firm that proclaimed to have invented a process for recycling metals from waste.  Gore praised the Molten Metal firm as a pioneer in the kind of innovative technology that can save the environment, and make money for investors at the same time.

    “Gore left a few facts out of his speech that day,” wrote EIR.  “First, the firm was run by Strong and a group of Gore intimates, including Peter Knight, the firm’s registered lobbyist, and Gore’s former top Senate aide.”

    (Fast-forward to the present day and ask yourself why it is that every time someone picks up another Senate rock,  another serpent comes slithering out).

    “Second, the company had received more than $25 million in U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) research and development grants, but had failed to prove that the technology worked on a commercial scale.  The company would go on to receive another $8 million in federal taxpayers’ cash, at that point, its only source of revenue.

    “With Al Gore’s Earth Day as a Wall Street calling card, Molten Metal’s stock value soared to $35 a share, a range it maintained through October 1996.  But along the way, DOE scientists had balked at further funding.  When in March 1996, corporate officers concluded that the federal cash cow was about to run dry, they took action: Between that date and October 1996, seven corporate officers—including Maurice strong—sold off $15.3 million in personal shares in the company, at top market value.  On Oct. 20, 1996—a Sunday—the company issued a press release, announcing for the first time, that DOE funding would be vastly scaled back, and reported the bad news on a conference call with stockbrokers.

    “On Monday, the stock plunged by 49%, soon landing at $5 a share.  By early 1997, furious stockholders had filed a class action suit against the company and its directors.  Ironically, one of the class action lawyers had tangled with Maurice strong in another insider trading case, involving a Swiss company called AZL Resources, chaired by Strong, who was also a lead shareholder.  The AZL case closely mirrored Molten Metal, and in the end, Strong and the other AZL partners agreed to pay $5 million to dodge a jury verdict, when eyewitness evidence surfaced of Strong’s role in scamming the value of the company stock up into the stratosphere, before selling it off.

    In 1997,  Strong went on to accept from Tongsun Park, who was found guilty of illegally acting as an Iraqi agent, $1 million from Saddam Hussein, which was invested in Cordex Petroleum Inc., a company he owned with his son, Fred.

    These are the leaders in the Man-made Global Warming Movement, who three years later were to be funded by the man who was to become President of the United States of America.

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  61. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @Griff

    Promised myself not to react anymore to your (usually) infantile comments filled with ad-homs and expletives.
    Will give it a last try as your last three comments seem to be fairly moderate.

    “I certainly will not be trading on the Chicago Climate Exchange It closed last year”

    Oh, you caught up with the news did you?
    Yes it did.
    $80 million dollars went up in smoke but not before Mr. Gore and his cronies made some real money.
    Fools and their money are easily parted….

    “The BP solar business is Free with the bridge just send 10,000 now to my Swiss account and I will give you the BP solar panel manufacturing business free”

    Sorry Griff, it was sold last year in December. Probably partly because the biggest customer of BP Solar (Spain) bankrupted itself chasing the unicorn.
    However, BP made a tidy profit before and when it was sold.
    BP’s solar business was valued at $2.1 billion to $3.9 billion and its wind business between $1.8 billion and $2.1 billion. BP Solar was part of BP until December 2012 when it was sold as it was deemed no longer profitable.

    Between 2005 and 2010, BP also invested about $5 billion in its renewable energy business, mainly in biofuel and wind power projects. In 2011, BP planned to invest $1 billion in renewables, roughly the same amount it invested in 2010.
    BP built another biofuel refinery in the Southeastern U.S., part of BP’s wholly-owned Vercipia cellulosic ethanol Highlands County facility which was bought for $98 million.
    In Brazil BP holds a 50 percent stake in Tropical BioEnergia and plans to invest $1 billion to operate two ethanol refineries.
    In the U.S. BP currently generates more than 1,200 megawatts of wind-powered electricity. In July 2011 it launched construction of the 250-megawatt Cedar Creek II wind farm in Weld County, Colo.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=axQSsIKDgPfE&refer=uk
    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/20110201/bp-plans-1b-wind-biofuel-investments-for-2011.htm

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  62. CrazyIvan (75 comments) says:

    Looks like Romney is going with Paul Ryan as his pick for VP. His attempt to refocus the campaign back on to the economy, and Romney has in the past said that he supports most of the Ryan budget for the US. Expect the Democrats to come out swinging after the announcement around midnight.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/11/romney-has-picked-paul-ryan-as-running-mate-republican-source-tells-associated/

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  63. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Been reading the Canadian free press Krazy kiwi

    pity that this exchange closed last year I guess this latest headline might be wrong eh

    “Obama Years Ago Helped Fund Carbon Program He Is Now Pushing Through Congress” is a FOXNews story by Ed Barnes. In short, “While on the board of a Chicago-based charity, Barack Obama helped fund a carbon trading exchange that will likely play a critical role in the cap-and-trade carbon reduction program he is now trying to push through Congress as president.”

    Loved this one

    Angels: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly!
    By Dr. Don Boys
    In this first of three columns on angels, I will discuss Good Angels with the following two columns dealing with Bad Angels and Ugly Angels.

    this one speaks for itself

    Given Obama’s personal hostility toward the pro-life movement and his administration’s bias against Catholic values and beliefs—as evidenced by recent HHS health care mandates and the imposition of his secular agenda upon religious institutions or their affiliates—I wondered aloud in my recent column “ObamaCare Abortions: Will Catholics Vote for Him a Second Time?” (CFP, February 4, 2012) How we, as Catholics, will respond the second time around.

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  64. big bruv (12,380 comments) says:

    Hands up those of you who enjoyed the few brief days when we were beating the Aussie’s in the gold medal table who now feel like fools?

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  65. Griff (6,263 comments) says:

    Promise not to post shite like your first effort than altie and I will not make fun of you

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  66. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Following my joke last week about the Holy Quran & the large number of private messages from Muslim members that followed it, I would like to make the following statement:

    “Islam is a religion based on peace, love & respect…… this is the central message of the Qur’an. As such I offer a full apology for making the claim that it encourages suicide bombing & violence.”

    OK, there – I said it. Now can you please stop sending me death threats?

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  67. cha (3,539 comments) says:

    http://stmichael.patch.com/articles/bachmann-predicts-romney-will-select-ohio-senator-as-vp

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  68. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    A Muslim was sitting next to Paddy on a plane. Paddy ordered a whiskey.

    The stewardess asked the Muslim if he’d like a drink.

    He replied in disgust “I’d rather be raped by a dozen whores than let liquor touch my lips!”

    Paddy handed his drink back and said “Me too, I didn’t know we had a choice!”

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  69. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    An Arab diplomat visiting the US for the first time was being wined and dined by the State Department.
    The Grand Emir was unused to the salt in American foods (French fries, cheeses, salami, anchovies, etc.) and was constantly sending his manservant, Abdul, to fetch him a glass of water.
    Time and again, Abdul would scamper off and return with a glass of water, but then came the time when he returned empty-handed.
    “Abdul, you son of an ugly camel, where is my water?” demanded the Grand Emir.
    “A thousand pardons, O Illustrious One,” stammered the wretched Abdul, “but a man is sitting on the well.”

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  70. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    You know you’re Taliban if…

    You refine heroin for a living, but you have a moral objection to beer.
    You own a 3000 dollar machine gun and 5000 dollar rocket launcher, but you can’t afford shoes.
    You have more wives than teeth.
    You think vests come in two styles: bullet-proof and suicide.You can’t think of anyone you HAVEN’T declared Jihad against.
    You consider television dangerous, but routinely carry explosives in your clothing.
    You were amazed to discover that cell phones have uses other than setting off roadside bombs.
    You’ve often uttered the phrase, ‘I love what you’ve done with your cave.’
    You have nothing against women and think every man should own at least one.
    You bathe at least once monthly whether necessary or not.
    You’ve ever had a crush on your neighbour’s goat.

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  71. F E Smith (3,275 comments) says:

    PEB,

    I don’t really care whether he was gay, bisexual or straight. It only serves as a distraction. It doesn’t de-legitimise what he was saying, however. He was still (mostly) correct, even if he could have gone about it in a better way.

    That is not to say that he shouldn’t have held the hearings. They put a bomb under the left wingers of the time, quite a number of whom were directly in the pay of Moscow.

    nasska, your 8pm joke is fantastic!

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  72. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    After two days in the desert, Abdul’s camel was about to collapse.

    “Ahmed,” Abdul ordered, “bring her over here to the watering hole!”

    Ahmed brought the camel to the watering hole, but no matter what they did, the camel would not drink. Knowing that the camel would die if it did not drink, Abdul came up with an idea. “We will have to force the camel drink,” Abdul explained, “Ahmed, when I hold the camels head under the water, you start sucking on it’s arsehole and it will be forced to drink!”

    Knowing they would die if the camel didn’t drink, Ahmed went to the rear of the camel. As Abdul stuck the camel’s head under the water, Ahmed began sucking on the camel’s arsehole. After a couple of minutes sucking on the arsehole, Ahmed shouted to Abdul, “Lift her head a little, she’s sucking mud!”

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  73. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    “nasska, your 8pm joke is fantastic!”

    Quite agree with you Ahmed! :)

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  74. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    A guy goes in an adult store and asks for an inflatable doll.
    Guy behind the counter says, “Male or female?”
    Customer says, “Female.”
    Counter guy asks, “Black or white?”
    Customer says, “White.”
    Counter guy asks, “Radical Christian or Muslim Extremist?”
    Customer says, “What the hell does religion have to do with it?”
    Counter guy says, “The Muslim Extremist blows itself up.”

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  75. kowtow (6,723 comments) says:

    Now for something completly different……

    Speigel is worth a visit.Lots of topical stuff on the front page

    Fatties and soft drinks NY
    Germans and the EU
    Strange Muslim sect
    Drone warfare
    Global warming bollocks

    Something for everyone

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/

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  76. Zapper (845 comments) says:

    Big Bruv

    I enjoyed it and don’t feel like a fool. I said all along they’d end up with 7-8 golds. You need to do something about the chip on your shoulder old boy

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  77. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    A Muslim dies and goes to heaven. When he gets there, St. Peter meets him at the gate and says, “Welcome to heaven my son, please enter!”
    The Muslim says “Oh no, no, I cannot enter without seeing Allah.” St. Peter says, “Oh… Allah. He is upstairs.”
    The Muslim says, “Well of course, Allah is upstairs!” He climbs upstairs and meets Jesus.
    Jesus says “Welcome to heaven my child, please enter!” And the Muslim says “Oh no, no, with all due respect, I cannot enter without seeing Allah.”
    Jesus says “But of course…Allah is upstairs, top floor.”
    The Muslim smiles and thinks to himself, “Of course, Allah is on top of heaven itself because He is most high!”
    At the final gate he meets the all mighty Lord himself who says “Welcome to heaven my child, please enter.”
    As expected, the Muslim says he cannot enter without meeting Allah, to which the Lord replies “I understand, my child…Allah is here. But he is busy right now. Why don’t you have a seat and wait for him?”
    The Muslim is so excited that his Allah is so important, after all he always believed this was so. The Lord says to the Muslim “Why you must be parched, would you like a drink?”
    The Muslim says, “Yes, I would like a drink. I would like that very much.”
    And the Lord asks, “Would you like a Coke?”
    The Muslim says “Yes, that sounds good, thank you.”
    The Lord says, “It does indeed. I think I’ll join you.”
    And with that the Lord snapped his fingers and said, “Allah, bring two cokes!”

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  78. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Islam

    Because toilet paper isn’t for everyone

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  79. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Who cares about Australia? fuck them.
    There is a World besides ‘I struck a failure’ Fucking sheep shagging, cheating, win at all costs, bunch of wankers.

    Oh, sorry Master, head troll Big Bruv
    Get your hand off it Bruv

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  80. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Some sheepshaggers do not deserve your opprobrium Steve (North Shore)! :)

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  81. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    Probably he didn’t hear about the recent tragedy in Australia when 400 sheepfarmers were made widowers after a stocktruck jack knifed & rolled yesterday.

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  82. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    My heart goes out to fellows like that. I chauffeur all my ladies to the butcher personally.

    http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?q=pictures+of+sheep+in+limos&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1142&bih=598&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=IdL_iemoaxFd4M:&imgrefurl=http://

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  83. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Birthday Present

    A wife decides to take her husband to a strip club for his birthday.
    They arrive at the club and the doorman says, “Hey, Dave! How ya doin’?”
    His wife is puzzled and asks if he’s been to this club before.
    “Oh, no,” says Dave. “He’s on my bowling team.”
    When they are seated, a waitress asks Dave if he’d like his usual and brings over a Budweiser.
    His wife is becoming increasingly uncomfortable and says,”How did she know that you drink Budweiser?”
    “She’s in the Ladies’ Bowling League, honey. We share lanes with them.”
    A stripper then comes over to their table, throws her arms around Dave, and says “Hi Davey. Want your usual table dance, big boy?”
    Dave’s wife, now furious, grabs her purse and storms out of the club.
    Dave follows and spots her getting into a cab. Before she can slam the door, he jumps in beside her. He tries desperately to explain how the stripper must have mistaken him for someone else, but his wife is having none of it. She is screaming at him at the top of her lungs, calling him every name in the book.
    The cabby turns his head and says, “Looks like you picked up a real bitch tonight, Dave.”

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  84. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    wots opprobrium? Roll over and rest, or roll over and get some shleep

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  85. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Joke of the day is won by Johnboy @ 9.23

    And my name is Steve, not Dave ok?

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  86. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    The cowboy walked into the tack shop. “How much for a pair
    of spurs?” he asked the sales clerk.

    “Forty dollars.”

    The cowboy looked in his wallet, thought for a moment, then
    pulled out a twenty. “I’ll take one spur.”

    “What’ll you do with just one?” the clerk asked.

    The cowboy replied, “I figger if I can get one side of the
    horse movin’, the other side’ll go too.”

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  87. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    For the Ladies.

    A mother was washing her 4 year-old, the kid looked at his little scrotum and asked ” Mummy, is this where my brains are? ” The mother replied. “Not yet”

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  88. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Very topical.

    Why do so many gays have mustaches? To hide the stretch marks.

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  89. David Garrett (5,150 comments) says:

    I second Johnboy @ 9.23 for joke of the night…

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  90. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    D G – Do they let you use the internet in jail? Saturday night privilege?

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  91. Lazybum (259 comments) says:

    Kiwi Gold yet again, good on ya Lisa Carrington.
    5 Golds a great return on the Olympics. IMHO our best games ever.

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  92. snowy (106 comments) says:

    Hamnida, does mummy let you stay up past 10pm?

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  93. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Don’t have a mummy.

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