General Debate 4 August 2012

August 4th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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123 Responses to “General Debate 4 August 2012”

  1. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Protest over ‘airbrushed’ Clark photo

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10824495

    Good on Mr Creser.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

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  2. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    There’s a lot of nonsense talked about ‘transfer of wealth’, this time by a Victoria University lecturer in a Fairfax/IPSOS article.

    It’s ironic that those most adversely affected by the wealth gap don’t have any wealth to transfer, in fact it’s tax paid by the more wealthy that enable them to receive state assistance.

    The “transfer of wealth” term is a misnomer, especially when Greens, Labour and Mana promote transferring more wealth from rich to poor by raising taxes.

    ‘Transfer of wealth’ fallacies.

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  3. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    We really need to wind back the clock, get the church in charge again and then there’ll be no pesky homos wanting marriage, they’ll all be dead.

    A Christian perspective ultimately brought the death penalty upon homosexuality between roughly 350 AD and roughly 1850 or so, for about 1,500 years that form of life had pretty much been eliminated except here and there, it was in the closet, but it was almost unheard of for over 1,000 years, until recently. Of course, now you have a massive, massive increase in this kind of thing…

    Pastor Kevin Swanson of Generations With Vision

    Welcome to the world pined after by Lucia Maria, andrei, reid, fletch and all the other vile and evil god nuts.

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  4. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Newsflash….

    395 PPM of CO2 in the atmosphere causes spontaneous dumpster fires and melting street lights.
    Read it first in Yahoo “News”!!

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/oklahoma-hot-street-lamps-melting-203656312.html

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  5. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    Transfer of wealth from those that have it to those that don’t.

    Isn’t modern democracy great when it allows you to vote to in a government that steals other peoples earnings and they can call it “equality” or socialism.

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  6. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    Luke muttonfuckinghead

    Are you homosexual as well as a xenophobe?

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  7. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    Several good points made in this article about the Chick-fil-A brouhaha in the USA. The writer first notes a column in the LA Times – which tries to be knowingly superior about business leaders keeping out of social issues, letting their products speak for themselves, and keeping your big mouth shut – and points out the following:

    Heh. Is there a better study in liberal cluelessness out today?

    According to one account, Chick-fil-A’s corporate headquarters told its outlets to expect a 15 to 20 percent increase in business yesterday, while the actual increase may be closer to something like 200 percent.

    What’s really behind Hiltzik’s column is old-fashioned liberal intimidation of business–trying to keep business people from speaking out for their own principles and interests.

    Cluelessness and the usual double standards of course:

    Just curious: has Hiltzik or any other liberal ever made the same point about Ben & Jerry’s ice cream—the only dairy products company I know of that has its own foreign policy?

    But there were two further points made that I thought more important still. First, this one:

    The extraordinary turnout at Chick-fil-A yesterday is all the more remarkable for having occurred more or less spontaneously, without any national organization behind it, a notable public figure (like Jesse Jackson) or the legacy media publicizing it. It was all word of mouth, crowd-sourced through that media-monopoly-smasher, the Internet.

    It all happened so fast that the Left has not even tried to pull their usual stunt of It’s The Koch Brothers! Which leads on to the second point:

    Put this altogether and it adds up to a storm in November—a “derecho” aimed at the Beltway. The media will be the last to know, of course. I still cherish a Washington Post editorial published two days after Reagan’s 1980 landslide called “Tidal Wave”:

    Something of gigantic proportions happened—must have been happening for a long while—and the capital and the political wise men were taken by surprise. . . an ‘anti-Washington,’ ‘anti-establishment’ political storm warning was missed by Washington and the establishment.

    Duh.

    Duh indeed!

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  8. Komata (972 comments) says:

    Kowtow

    Re: Isn’t modern democracy great when it allows you to vote to in a government that steals other peoples earnings and they can call it “equality” or socialism.

    Yes, it certainly, especially when, having practised on a small country (New Zealand) you then move onto a large country (USA) to ‘hone one’s skills’ then bring these skills to the UN and apply them to controlling the World. As you say, ‘Democracy’ is great. (Tui moment).

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  9. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Mutton, you are obsessed by gays and the church….
    Secret ‘altar boy’ fantasies Mutton?
    Don’t repress your feelings, don’t hold back, let it all out.

    And…
    Talk about nutters.
    Keep on cutting and pasting from ‘rightwingwatch’
    What an ‘inclusive’ place.
    The place where nutters are treated like normal people.
    Nutters Unite.

    And yes, I am a ‘nutophobic’.

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  10. Viking2 (10,736 comments) says:

    NZ’s Fairy Godmothers

    The collapse in international carbon prices over the past year has seen emitters switch from domestic to imported sources to meet their obligations, figures released yesterday indicate.

    In the emissions trading scheme’s first surrender period, which covered the second half of 2010, 98 per cent of the units surrendered to the Government were units which it had previously given out, mainly to forest owners. Money flowed from domestic energy users, via the oil and power companies, to the forestry sector.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10824448

    So we now spend our foreign exchange buying “illusions to trade”

    No wonder we are a country going Broke.

    Some smart bugger in Europe is selling Illusions to Kiwi businesses that then have to pay the Govt. cold hard cash.
    Tax by any other name.
    Does it make our products more competitive?
    Does anyone buying our products in say China or India or even the USA give a stuff?

    What a croc.

    Is there something wrong with this picture??
    Thankyou Nick smith for using all your brain power to think up this stupid ponzi.
    The emporer has no clothes comes to mind.

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  11. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    L. Mutton, the Roman Church also burned several million Christians at the stake as well.
    It was also a capital offence to be gay in the Roman army, and they were pagan, not Christian.

    So your point was…?

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  12. niggly (779 comments) says:

    Protest over ‘airbrushed’ Clark photo

    Reid: Heh heh, a leopard never changes it spots, eh!

    And more typical Clarkenfuhrer behavior as per the article – she cannot be reached for comment (heh since when has she ever made herself available to NZ media for comment, ever, since taking up her UN role)?

    And lucky us she is on her way to NZ for a holiday (wonder what she will bag this time round)?

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  13. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    Re equality / socialism

    Saw an Obama ‘spokesperson”on tv the other day on Romney. He was talking in terms of conservatives / “progressives”. So they are now using newspeak to position themselves as socialists without actually saying the “s” word that would be anathema to most American voters.

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  14. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    imp

    several million?

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  15. Scott Chris (5,682 comments) says:

    According to one account, Chick-fil-A’s corporate headquarters told its outlets to expect a 15 to 20 percent increase in business yesterday, while the actual increase may be closer to something like 200 percent.

    So it was just a cynical marketing ploy. Still think it’ll backfire in the long run.

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  16. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    “So your point was…?”

    If gays aren’t allowed to call themselves married we are all guilty of genocide.

    Or in other words.

    You are a racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, fascist (holocaust) denier….
    if you disagree with me!

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  17. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    He was talking in terms of conservatives / “progressives”.

    Now, now “kowtow”. You keep bringing up that point and “cha” will come even closer to Godwinning the thread than he did the other day:

    Oh, and progressive, just rolls off the tongue doesn’t it Andrei.

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  18. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    So it was just a cynical marketing ploy. Still think it’ll backfire in the long run.

    Only on planet left wing.

    In the real world most people do not agree with homosexual marriage despite being told we do and the homofacists shutting down any real debate.

    This was an opportunity for normal people to show that they are still existence

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  19. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    Actually I think it was more a reaction of ordinary people to another Liberal attempt at shutting their opponents up. I saw an article the other day that conducted interviews with people in line at Chuck-fil-A restaurants and found several who support gay marriage but were there to support the right of an American to speak up without being “punished”.

    Good to see that feeling still exists in America.

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  20. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    “So it was just a cynical marketing ploy.”

    Let me get this right.

    An LGBT advocacy group files a complaint against a fastfood owner’s stand on gay marriage and calls for a boycott of the store.
    When that goes wrong and it appears that most people disagree with the boycott and support the store it was just a “marketing ploy” by that store?
    So the LGBT group was actualy a front group for a Chicken Chain, set up by some clever PR agency to increase the sales?

    Wow, they are smart.

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  21. Don the Kiwi (1,338 comments) says:

    iMP
    9.20 am.

    L. Mutton, the Roman Church also burned several million Christians at the stake as well.

    Where did you get that line of bullshit from?

    I think you were perhaps arguing against L.Mutton, but a statement like that makes you just as silly.

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  22. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Wow, they are smart.

    No O_A. It’s just that Scott Chris is incredibly, massively, monstrously dumb. That’s all it is.

    Sorry Scott but, you know, reading that intent into that event, I mean farken hell, WTF is wrong with your mind?

    That aside, what a great outcome. Brilliant. Shame the conservatives over here aren’t as wise as their US counterparts over this issue. But then again, Key’s political judgements have always been appalling. It was very telling the other day when DPF revealed the polling figures for the public view on gay marriage. That’s the only reason Key has always been in favour of it. Typical. For Mr Popular to not care about doing the correct thing, as opposed to the popular thing. Remember when the govt made a U-turn over class sizes when Key was in London? Again, according to Hooten, that was because DPF had done a poll, showed it to Key and they had a conference call with Perata and a few senior ministers and decided, yet again, to do a massive, monstrous U-turn. Key’s a poll-driven fruitcake. He’s almost, not quite but frankly, getting to verge on, being as bad as Hulun was in this regard.

    Sooner or later the public, stupid as they are, wake up to this idiotic “yes man” stance that politicians adopt, and punish the fuck out of them for failing to be a leader. That’s what’s going to happen to Key and his reputation. It’s already started to happen, you can see the writing start to appear.

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  23. wiseowl (577 comments) says:

    @viking 9.19am

    And the suggestion is that Smith will be back in cabinet when other Smith is moved on.

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  24. Sofia (784 comments) says:

    Sooner or later the public, stupid as they are, wake up to this idiotic “yes man” stance that politicians adopt, and punish the fuck out of them for failing to be a leader.

    We partially did – it’s called the Labour Party

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  25. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    With these revelations, a final and conclusive case emerges that the US and British banking systems are indeed parasitical criminal enterprises which serve no positive social purpose, but which absorb government and other resources in such a way as to make economic recovery in their respective nations impossible.

    Because LIBOR had been faked, many investors around the world, including pension funds and individuals, received smaller payments on various investments tied to LIBOR. Many of these investors will now sue the 16 banks in court, demanding payment of restitution plus punitive damages. Berkshire Bank of New York City is typical of the smaller financial institutions who now want payment for what they lost through the cheating. The City of Baltimore, Maryland is suing LIBOR banks. Deutsche Bank is being dragged into court by investors who say they lost money on Japanese yen investments governed by LIBOR. New legal actions are being filed every day, and it is already clear that the LIBOR scandal will generate more financial lawsuits than any other event in recent years. As for criminal action, the British Serious Fraud Office and the US Department Of Justice have a shameful record of leading criminal bankers get away with murder, with no penalty.

    We partially did – it’s called the Labour Party

    Liarbore do it more than anyone Sofia. They do it as a matter of course. When Shearer gets in he’ll simply continue what Hulun did, all the time, throughout her entire term. Key is an anomaly, in that it’s not usual for conservative leaders to undertake the slavish following as much as he does it. It’s because he’s got no experience and clearly, no political instinct.

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  26. Paulus (2,298 comments) says:

    I wonder whether we will ever know who is the person in MFAT “of interest” in leaking papers, including Cabinet Papers to the Labour Party eg Phil Gof ?

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  27. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    The UN’s Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) can’t seem to find time to pass judgement on Syria which is busy murdering and torturing it’s own women and children, and has again condemned just one country: Israel. 

    [The ECOSOC] has just concluded its annual session by turning a blind eye to the ongoing massacres by the Assad regime. Instead,  a list of all its resolutions for the entire world shows that ECOSOC condemned only one single country: Israel. Two resolutions were adopted against Israel, and one report.
    :::
    Without any sense of shame, the resolution urges Israel to “facilitate visits of the Syrian citizens of the occupied Syrian Golan whose family members reside in their mother homeland, the Syrian Arab Republic” (par. 13).

    In other words, the U.N. human rights session had the gall to actually address Syria without mentioning a word about the Syrians now being bombed, gunned down and mutilated. Instead, Syria was mentioned only for the purpose of demonizing Israel.

    The hypocrisy gets worse. At a time when millions of Syrians are desperately seeking to flee Assad’s terror, a massive U.N. majority, acting through the only country resolution of the session, has just urged Israel to enable people — the Druze of the Golan Heights – to travel to Syria. No joke.

    End NZ support of the UN!

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  28. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Interesting if expected reaction from the Australian defence minister to the suggestion about basing a US carrier battle group in Perth.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-rejects-proposal-to-base-a-us-nuclear-aircraft-carrier-group-near-perth-8002078.html

    China after all, will be buying the majority of Australia’s mining output for the foreseeable future. Since the US has offshored most of its manufacturing to (ironically) China, the US cannot possibly replace China as Australia’s biggest customer. Isn’t that an interesting foreseeable checkmate by the military-industrial complex on its own self. I wonder if the long-term Pentagon geostrategic papers were pointing that out in the early 90′s just as the offshoring was getting underway courtesy of big pushes from the private consulting groups like McKinsey and Boston Consulting? After all, the growth of China was utterly forseeable back then, with the consequent need for the US to adjust its posture to counter it, so one wonders whether the commercial side of the equation was bought to the attention of the military and political planners, or whether it just got lost in the tremendous excitement of all that money that was then being made out of the “information superhighway?”

    Paulus, it would have to be a small handful of candidates, wouldn’t it?

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  29. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    Not sure why Colin Craig gets so much coverage for a non-politician, I guess money talks. He was interviewed (again) this morning, this time on The Nation. Louisa Walls impressed, he didn’t.

    Whenever one of his arguments is discredited he moves to another, then to another, with more fallacies and contradictions.

    He is not helping the case against marriage equality. The Colin Craig Craze.

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  30. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    Re: Chick-Fil-A, the liberals are having their own protest “Kiss-in” today at the restaurants.

    Judging by the photos (link below), it’s pretty lame. They can’t even manage to get two gay couples together. Most photos are the odd random gay couple kissing in front of the restaurant. No crowds.

    http://www.advocate.com/business/2012/08/03/activists-hold-kiss-day-protest-chick-fil

    Bit of a flop.
    As I have said before – it is the media and liberals that are pushing the gay marriage narrative. Reality is something completely different. No one really cares.

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  31. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    RE capital persecution of Christians by R Catholic church alongside ‘gay persecution.’
    RE Kowtow (2,414) at 9:28 and Don the Kiwi (848) at 9:48 am…

    Let’s take just three examples of the many throughout history, then, without even mentioning “Bloody Mary (Tudor)” OR the Protestant murders of Catholics during the Reformation…

    1. In the medieval period the Roman Catholic Church moved to suppress the Cathar heresy, the Pope having sanctioned a crusade against the Albigensians, during the course of which the massacre of Béziers took place, with between seven and twenty thousand deaths. Papal legate Arnaud Amalric, when asked how Catholics could be distinguished from Cathars once the city fell, famously replied, “Kill them all, God will know His own.” Over the twenty-year period of this campaign an estimated 200,000 to 1,000,000 people were killed.

    2. John Huss, a Bohemian preacher of reformation, was burned at the stake on 6 July 1415. Pope Martin V issued a bull on 17 March 1420 which proclaimed a crusade “for the destruction of the Wycliffites, Hussites and all other heretics in Bohemia”.

    3. The Crusades in the Middle East also spilled over into conquest of Eastern Orthodox Christians by Roman Catholics and attempted suppression of the Orthodox Church. The Waldenses were as well persecuted by the Catholic Church, but survive up to this day.

    History, she’s a funny, but enlightening old thing.

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  32. iMP (2,154 comments) says:

    A Catholic commentator adds this…

    “The Catholic Church has always persecuted true Christians. It is estimated that over time we have killed 68 million people in their Inquisition. Hitler stated that he modeled his government after the Catholic Church. He would’ve been equivalent to the Pope, the Gestapo were equivalent To the Franciscans who are the ones that did the dirty work in the Inquisition…he is known as the Black Pope. As evidence was mounting at the end of the last century, when more documents were being declassified and Russia was opening up their records, the Pope was forced to make a public mia culpa…

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  33. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    iMP, what a load of old bollocks.
    The Catholics ARE the first Christian Church.

    As far as the inquisition,

    there were two Inquisitions. One of them began right around the end of the first millennium in 1017. It began as an attempt to root out heretics and occurred chiefly in France, Germany, Italy and Spain. The Spanish Inquisition followed in the fourteenth century and was much bloodier. It began as a feudal aristocracy which forced religious values on society. Jews were caught in the middle of this and many of them were killed. About 2000 executions took place. The Inquisition that took place at the turn of the millennium, less than that. So we’re talking about thousands of people, not millions.

    There were actually seven different Crusades and tens of thousands died in them. Most of them were a misdirected attempt to free the Holy Land. Some weren’t quite like that. There were some positive aspects to them, but they were basically an atrocity over a couple hundred years. The worst was the Children’s Crusade. All of the children who went to fight died along the way. Some were shipwrecked and the rest were taken into slavery in Egypt.

    History is a funny old thing, yes, as is those who try and distort and rewrite it.

    That “68 million” figure is made up out of whole cloth.

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  34. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    Fletch (3,154) Says:
    August 4th, 2012 at 11:38 am

    Re: Chick-Fil-A, the liberals are having their own protest “Kiss-in” today at the restaurants.

    http://i.imgur.com/PxG1b.jpg

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  35. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Further to the Chick-Fil-A “protest” here’s a list of facebook responses from a gay man who said that he disagreed with the gay activist stance that Chick-Fil-A’s actions were gay hatred (which of course they’re not, they’re free speech, but try telling that to your average gay useful idiot)…

    http://www.lsnewsgroup.com/2012/08/03/gay-activists-plan-to-disrupt-chick-fil-a-business-friday-august-3rd/

    Meanwhile Jimmy Smits reflects his profound ignorance of all things religious by pretending that religion is anti-science. What the fuck would you know, Jimmy? (You fucking moron.)

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  36. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    http://www.skepticmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/god-says1.png

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  37. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    Jimmy, your little funny pic is taking things out of context.

    What they really should be showing is the Chik-Fil-A crowd peacefully protesting, vs, say, the Occupy Movement, who shit on police cars, vandalize, illegally occupy public property, smash store windows, rape etc…

    There’s your real contrast of conservative vs liberal protest.

    As far as science goes, more Jews have won the Nobel prizes for science than any other nation on earth.

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  38. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    Meanwhile Jimmy Smits reflects his profound ignorance of all things religious by pretending that religion is anti-science. What the fuck would you know, Jimmy? (You fucking moron.)

    You have got to be the most hypocritical Christian that I know (online). You swear more than atheists. You get angry more than atheists. You judge and condemn more than atheists. And to answer your question:

    http://i.imgur.com/rxcor.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/spOH5.jpg

    http://jpg.artige.no/store/29/29908.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/xliHh.jpg

    Here is another story:

    I was raised Christian all my life, in a VERY fundamentalist home. I was taught the earth was 6,000 years old created out of nothing, heaven, hell – the whole thing. I was taught how important it was to witness and attempt to “convert” others. I was taught that even bad things, really bad things, had some sort of divine reason and plan attached to them. I believed this into my early twenties.

    When I was finally faced with the irrefutable facts, and raw science behind them, I let go – very reluctantly – of my cherished beliefs. It was not easy, It was like wrestling a priceless gem from someone who would just not let go of it.

    When you reject religion, its not like – rejecting the earth is not flat for example. With something like this you can say “Oh ok, now I know” – but religion has a much darker and deep rooted hold on a person, and a much more profound effect.

    There were times I was actually in tears thinking about the fact that there was no “afterlife” – and that those I had loved who had died – were really dead. They weren’t watching me, or having some hand in guiding me. They didn’t still “love me”. That was pretty depressing.

    It is strange how religion gives you a way to reject the reality of death – which I guess does help to ‘ease your suffering’, that you “know they went to a better place” – but it also prevents proper mourning. When someone you love dies, and they tell you on their death bed that they will see you one day in heaven, you are more prepared for them to “die” because you know they aren’t really “dead”.

    To reject heaven and accept atheism – is not merely about science, facts, beliefs, etc – it is about accepting the reality of all those who have died – being really dead. It is accepting the same reality about everyone you love NOW one day being – really dead. It is accepting the same reality about YOU one day.

    The older you are, the more dear loved ones have passed away, the harder it will be to reject the notions of religion. To reject religion requires the re-mourning of everyone who you love who has died.

    Death is just one piece of a very complex puzzle. If you have spent your whole life “living by faith” – and you have made decisions “by faith” that have resulted in really bad situations in your life, you now have to own up to the fact that these situations came about because of YOUR choices. You do not have God to take the burden of this. You can no longer say “This happened because God has some plan for my life”

    By rejecting religion, you must also reject the notion that you can avoid responsibility for poor life situations. That too is a hard pill to swallow.

    Next, you must reject the idea that your path is somehow guided, that God is walking with you, that you are not truly alone as you walk through life. Imagine a man walking through a room on planks of wood suspended over spikes with large holes to fall in if you take a wrong step. He always manages to take the right next step, but he is never afraid because he “knows” that this is a solid wood floor he is walking on. Now turn on the lights.

    To reject religion means to accept the idea that you CAN fall – and fall HARD. It means you have to recognize that up until now you have been fortunate – but now you have to force yourself to think about your next steps.

    If you have been spending your life “following Christ”, or witnessing to people, to the extent of even studying this in college, or spending hundreds and hundreds of hours reading and studying the Bible, praying, etc – only to find out that ALL of it was utterly and totally useless, then you have another hard pill to swallow. Imagine swallowing that pill as an older person.

    To accept this means to accept that you have lived a large part of your life in vain, while thinking it was purposeful. Talking to such a person about atheism is similar to telling them that their whole life is without purpose, misguided, and that they have missed out on the only opportunity they will ever have to live life.

    Surely one can then see why the concept of atheism is offensive and infuriating to so many people.

    Then there is the concept of a personal relationship with God. The idea that God and you are “friends”. That you are somehow “above the world”. That you are living in a bubble safe and protected by God himself.

    To reject religion, means accepting that you are just like everyone else – and in fact, worse off than most and behind the race because of your past religious belief. To someone who has spent a lifetime believing they are special in this regard, a piece of them is gone, never to return.

    Worse than this, such a person values their imaginary relationship with God more than any aspect of their REAL personality. Who you really are takes second stage to your supposed relationship with the almighty.

    Rejecting this is surely very difficult, as it entails rejecting a large part of the perceived value someone has in themselves.

    I know I have not covered it all, but I hope I have helped to show that there is more to the picture of “religion vs atheism” than merely science, and facts.

    The emotional side of religion is by far a larger and darker obstacle than any other that would stand in the way between someone’s freedom from delusion and accepting reality.

    Another story:

    I want you to be dead honest with me (and yourself) about something. Does it bother you, at any level, that, according to traditional conservative theology, probably somewhere around 90-95% of people ever born on this planet are going to end up in Hell? I mean, even a little bit? If you really can be honest, you would have to admit that it does. If it doesn’t, then either you don’t really believe it deep down, or you are a very cold-hearted person. Think about it. If you meet 100 people in the course of the day, 95 of them are supposed to spend eternity (that’s forever and ever and ever…) in a place devoid of all hope, all love, all grace, and which is the very definition of personal suffering. How could such an idea not bother you?!? Truth is, this teaching bothers most people, even among those who believe it. It bothers conservatives so much that they will hardly ever talk about it, even from the pulpit. You find a traditional evangelical church on any given Sunday and see how many of them preach a sermon on Hell. See how many even mention it in their gospel presentations! That’s right, in the very message that they say people need to believe in order to avoid Hell, they don’t even mention it!! Oh sure, they’ll talk about “being separated from God,” but come on, folks, that’s so vague. But don’t be mistaken – the ambiguity is on purpose. They are afraid to tell you the “truth.” They are afraid to tell you that if you fail to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, then, according to their theology, you will go to Hell. That is, unending, conscious torment and suffering with absolutely no hope of escape. Whether the fires are literal or not we’re talking about unimaginable agony that goes on forever and ever and ever and ever…

    Ok, you get the point. I mean, seriously, who are they trying to fool besides themselves? These people claim that they love non-Christian people so much and yet they are afraid of giving them the whole story? Why dance around it? We have no problem telling people who smoke that they’re going to die of lung cancer. We have no problem telling people who drink too much that they are going to get cirrhosis of the liver. We have no problem telling people who are really overweight that they are going to die of a heart attack. We do these things because we love them and we don’t want them to suffer these fates. Yet, these are nowhere close to the tragedy of spending an eternity in Hell, right? So, why the hesitancy? Why are they trying to sugarcoat it? The truth is that it is psychologically impossible to live a full, happy life while simultaneously entertaining the thought that most of a person’s loved ones, neighbors, and friends will, should they die today, face a torture that defies the imagination. Oh, and don’t forget about how quickly the pews would empty and the offerings drop off if they started telling people they were going to Hell. You see, it’s no longer popular to threaten people will torment in the afterlife. However, if you really believe this is going to happen and you claim to love people, then it is your responsibility to tell them the whole truth. Am I wrong?

    At this point in the article, a fundamentalist may be ready to jump up and shout “Amen! You go T.J!” I hate to bust his bubble, but I’m not writing this article in order to motivate conservatives to start preaching about Hell, but to point to the fact that their lack of preaching on the subject either means that they don’t care or that they don’t really believe it. Or, perhaps, at some level, they’re just keeping their fingers crossed and hoping that it’s not true. You see, they’re suffering from the cognitive dissonance that is caused by believing in a loving God on one hand and yet believing He is capable of sending 95% of the precious people He created to utter destruction and despair without an ounce of mercy. They are haunted by a seemingly unexplainable paradox in their theology: that the God who lovingly nurtures us might send our children into a perpetual, inextinguishable fire. You see, they know this deep down inside, and because they can’t reconcile it, they repress it and avoid it.

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  39. Jimmy Smits (246 comments) says:

    Fletch (3,156) Says:
    August 4th, 2012 at 12:09 pm

    As far as science goes, more Jews have won the Nobel prizes for science than any other nation on earth.

    And according to your religion – Jews are going to Hell for rejecting Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Sounds like a reasonable God.

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  40. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    Britain could suffer smog worse than Beijing

    Britain could be blanketed with thick fog worse than Beijing if carbon emissions are not slashed, scientists have warned.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/9449319/Britain-could-suffer-smog-worse-than-Beijing.html

    Read that second line again….
    The pseudo scientists, ‘media’ and scare mongers depend on the science-illiterate idiots to keep the scam going.

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  41. wat dabney (3,464 comments) says:

    Meanwhile Jimmy Smits reflects his profound ignorance of all things religious by pretending that religion is anti-science. What the fuck would you know, Jimmy? (You fucking moron.)

    More accurately, theists accept science and enjoy all the benefits it brings, right up to the point where it contradicts their magical belief system. And then, curiously, science is suddenly useless and wrong.

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  42. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    reid Meanwhile Jimmy Smits reflects his profound ignorance of all things religious by pretending that religion is anti-science. What the fuck would you know, Jimmy? (You fucking moron.)

    So, reid, please list the scientific discoveries that have come about due to religion. Ya fucking dipshit.

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  43. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    There is no such thing as religion vs science. Some of the greatest scientists of all time have been religious, in particular, the Jesuit Fathers contributed hugely to science.

    Luke, see below –

    We have all heard a great deal about the Church’s alleged hostility toward science. What most people fail to realize is that historians of science have spent the past half-century drastically revising this conventional wisdom, arguing that the Church’s role in the development of Western science was far more salutary than previously thought. I am speaking not about Catholic apologists but about serious and important scholars of the history of science such as J.L. Heilbron, A.C. Crombie, David Lindberg, Edward Grant, and Thomas Goldstein.

    It is all very well to point out that important scientists, like Louis Pasteur, have been Catholic. More revealing is how many priests have distinguished themselves in the sciences. It turns out, for instance, that the first person to measure the rate of acceleration of a freely falling body was Fr. Giambattista Riccioli. The man who has been called the father of Egyptology was Fr. Athanasius Kircher (also called “master of a hundred arts” for the breadth of his knowledge). Fr. Roger Boscovich, who has been described as “the greatest genius that Yugoslavia ever produced,” has often been called the father of modern atomic theory.

    In the sciences it was the Jesuits in particular who distinguished themselves; some 35 craters on the moon, in fact, are named after Jesuit scientists and mathematicians.

    By the eighteenth century, the Jesuits

    had contributed to the development of pendulum clocks, pantographs, barometers, reflecting telescopes and microscopes, to scientific fields as various as magnetism, optics and electricity. They observed, in some cases before anyone else, the colored bands on Jupiter’s surface, the Andromeda nebula and Saturn’s rings. They theorized about the circulation of the blood (independently of Harvey), the theoretical possibility of flight, the way the moon effected the tides, and the wave-like nature of light. Star maps of the southern hemisphere, symbolic logic, flood-control measures on the Po and Adige rivers, introducing plus and minus signs into Italian mathematics — all were typical Jesuit achievements, and scientists as influential as Fermat, Huygens, Leibniz and Newton were not alone in counting Jesuits among their most prized correspondents [Jonathan Wright, The Jesuits, 2004, p. 189].

    Seismology, the study of earthquakes, has been so dominated by Jesuits that it has become known as “the Jesuit science.” It was a Jesuit, Fr. J.B. Macelwane, who wrote Introduction to Theoretical Seismology, the first seismology textbook in America, in 1936. To this day, the American Geophysical Union, which Fr. Macelwane once headed, gives an annual medal named after this brilliant priest to a promising young geophysicist.

    The Jesuits were also the first to introduce Western science into such far-off places as China and India. In seventeenth-century China in particular, Jesuits introduced a substantial body of scientific knowledge and a vast array of mental tools for understanding the physical universe, including the Euclidean geometry that made planetary motion comprehensible. Jesuits made important contributions to the scientific knowledge and infrastructure of other less developed nations not only in Asia but also in Africa and Central and South America. Beginning in the nineteenth century, these continents saw the opening of Jesuit observatories that studied such fields as astronomy, geomagnetism, meteorology, seismology, and solar physics. Such observatories provided these places with accurate time keeping, weather forecasts (particularly important in the cases of hurricanes and typhoons), earthquake risk assessments, and cartography. In Central and South America the Jesuits worked primarily in meteorology and seismology, essentially laying the foundations of those disciplines there. The scientific development of these countries, ranging from Ecuador to Lebanon to the Philippines, is indebted to Jesuit efforts.

    Yet another false meme you’re trying to put forward.

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  44. wat dabney (3,464 comments) says:

    please list the scientific discoveries that have come about due to religion

    Surely you are overlooking the very fertile field that is Creation Science

    ‘Witness the true time line of the universe unfold through the 7 C’s of History’

    http://creationmuseum.org/

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  45. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    You have got to be the most hypocritical Christian that I know (online). You swear more than atheists. You get angry more than atheists. You judge and condemn more than atheists.

    Jimmy you might like to know I deliberately swear more with you because I know you have a thing about it, you fucking moron. That’s the reason I do it with you, in particular. Sometimes I do it with others as well but with you, well fuck it, you’re an arsehole, so what the hell.

    I was raised Christian all my life, in a VERY fundamentalist home. I was taught the earth was 6,000 years old created out of nothing, heaven, hell – the whole thing. I was taught how important it was to witness and attempt to “convert” others. I was taught that even bad things, really bad things, had some sort of divine reason and plan attached to them. I believed this into my early twenties.

    When I was finally faced with the irrefutable facts, and raw science behind them, I let go – very reluctantly – of my cherished beliefs. It was not easy, It was like wrestling a priceless gem from someone who would just not let go of it.

    When you reject religion, its not like – rejecting the earth is not flat for example. With something like this you can say “Oh ok, now I know” – but religion has a much darker and deep rooted hold on a person, and a much more profound effect.

    Jimmy, newsflash. Your parents know nothing about religion. They twisted you into a hate-filled little man. It isn’t religion that caused you to turn out like this, it was your parents mistaken interpretation of it. So blame your parents, even blame the church they worshipped if you like, but don’t blame religion, because religion isn’t responsible.

    Jimmy I often say that the problem with religion is mankind’s interpretation of it, and its true. Just because people say they are doing something in the name of religion doesn’t mean they are, even if they believe they are. So just because someone blows themselves up in the name of Allah, does not mean that Allah made them do it nor that Allah would approve of it, for example. As another example, just because some minister somewhere says God hates gays, does not make that so, either.

    The key thing about religion is this. It’s about a personal relationship, between you and God. That’s it. Period. And to the extent that relationship is acknowledged that person is “religious.” It’s not about whether they attend church once, twice, seven or twenty times a week. It never has been. This is where you’ve gone completely whacko, Jimmy. This is where you’ve conflated what mankind (in the form of your parents) has said about religion, with what it really is (which is you and God, period.)

    The essence of all religion for me is summed up in Mark 12:28-31:

    And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    If you do both those things, you’re a religious man, even if you never attend church in your life.

    Like I said Jimmy, religion is not what mankind says it is, it’s what is in your heart. That does NOT mean it is whatever you say it is, oh no. Don’t make that mistake. You have to study the bible and know it, and live it. And I know according to that, I shouldn’t swear. A foul mouth is the sign of a foolish man. I know that. Hey, I’m not perfect. But I try. Maybe not as hard as I should, but I try. And that’s what Satan the Deceiver and Slanderer has done, to you and to many who aren’t as well educated as you as well.

    For Satan the Deceiver has put into many minds the falsehood that it’s OK to be a good person. That this is all that is sufficient. It’s not, as the first part alludes. You have to love God, as well as love others, you can’t do one of those things only. That’s not the deal. And that’s what Satan allows the world to think, through his clever deceptions.

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  46. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    imp

    Honestly I’m trying to be helpful……

    See the catholic Encyclopaedia for historical background on those subjects . It was written early 1900,s so predates PC. Obviously Catholic but very instructive.”Slay all…” may not have been uttered. Citations are given.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01267e.htm

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  47. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    Copernicus was a Catholic monk.

    The following might be of interest to open minded types……not muttonfucker,warts dumbney et al

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13598b.htm

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  48. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    So, reid, please list the scientific discoveries that have come about due to religion.

    Luke, you’re the kind of man that is a blueprint for building an idiot. Science and religion are two separate fields. They do not inter-operate because they address different realms. It is like pretending the the field of mathematics has a bearing on existentialism, which is the field in philosophy that deals with the meaning of mankind’s existence. Obviously, duh, the two don’t have anything at all to say about the other. And why should they.

    The argument I was addressing is that people like you allege that religion is anti-science. In other words, that religion attacks science, and it doesn’t and it never has. Just because complete fuckwits like you and Jimmy THINK it does, because say, the pope says something about creation, that doesn’t mean that religion is attacking science, it means that some religious leader is making a political point, as some religious leaders are wont to do.

    The fact is Luke, if religion was anti-science, then you would never get Christian and Muslim scientists but as a matter of fact, newsflash you monstrous moron, there are hundreds of thousands of them. And they manage both to be good serving religious people and highly successful scientists all at the same time. If you were right then this shouldn’t ever happen, if you were right then it wouldn’t be possible because a person’s logic circuits simply would not be able to cope with the stress of living alternate lives. The fact it happens hundreds of thousands if not millions of times every single day should give you and Jimmy pause for thought Luke. That is, if you had any scientific brains in you at all. For that counter-factual is precisely the scientific phenomena which renders your hypothesis null and void, doesn’t it. yes Luke, that’s right. According to reality itself, YOUR ARGUMENT CAN’T BE TRUE. Do you feel like a total numbnut fucking moron now, or what? Let’s hope so. Why don’t you just stop wasting our time and come up with something that isn’t so easy to disprove. Honestly. Fucking d’oh times eleventy gajillion, Luke. What are ya?

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  49. wat dabney (3,464 comments) says:

    For Satan the Deceiver has put into many minds the falsehood that it’s OK to be a good person.

    ooh, that Satan!

    Think of all the evil, wicked things he did in the Bible: he drowned the whole World; he waged racial genocidal war; he murdered the firstborn of Egypt; he had people stoned to death when they disobeyed his absurd, petty and entirely arbitrary rules.

    Oh wait. No. That was Yahweh, the evil pixie that Satan was fighting.

    Still. Think of all the evil, wicked things that Satan did.

    Er…

    mm…

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  50. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    wat, you do realise this is not God’s world, it is Satan’s world, right now, don’t you. That’s what the Bible says. Satan is, right now, in charge of this world and he has been busy for thousands of years turning people away from God and toward him. You do know that, don’t you. It’s fairly fundamental that you get this, because if you don’t, then you might think that YHWH is in charge and that would be a massive error on your part, equivalent to being wrong about every single thing in the whole world since the day you started life.

    So I just hope you haven’t made that mistake wat, because it sounds as if you might have.

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  51. publicwatchdog (1,840 comments) says:

    ‘Aussie Rules’ to help prevent corrupt Ministerial ‘conflicts of interest’.

    How come – if New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be ‘the least corrupt country in the world’ – we don’t have these legislative safeguards?

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-12-06/rudd-announces-ministerial-code-of-conduct/979880

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  52. wat dabney (3,464 comments) says:

    you do realise this is not God’s world, it is Satan’s world, right now, don’t you.

    How silly of me. I thought Apollo’s, or possibly Odin’s. But no, it’s Satan’s world.

    Glad we got that cleared up.

    I suppose we know it’s not Yahweh’s world because we haven’t all be drowned – men, women and children – and our firstborn haven’t all been murdered.
    Instead, the human condition is the highest it has ever been; with hundreds of millions of people lifted out of poverty in the last few years alone.

    And apparently this happy state is all thanks to the hero of the Bible – Satan – standing up to the magical space Nazi that is Yahweh.

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  53. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    I was raised Christian all my life, in a VERY fundamentalist home.

    BINGO!!!

    I’ve been glancing at the diatribes of Jimmy Smits for some weeks now and thinking to myself that they sounded like the typical product of an 18 year old first-year varsity student, away from a religious home for the first time in life, exposed to different ideas – and suddenly shocked into trashing everything they accepted. And it turns out – assuming that the second story was his own – to not be far from the reality, except we’re talking early twenties and possibly not involving university.

    These sorts of diatribes are truly the mark of the fanatic, and the most fanatical types of people are the converts. They’re the ones who have seen the light, had the scales fall from their eyes, refuted their previous beliefs – and are just gagging to tell everyone about this 24/7/365 and beat people into submission until they agree.

    In other words, former Christian Fundamentalist (now Atheist) “Jimmy Smits” is a doppelganger for former Atheist (now Christian Fundamentist) “Lee01″.

    I doubt that you’re big on taking advice Jimmy, but here’s some from an older atheist – chill out FFS! There are people whose strange, faith-based beliefs are far more of a threat to your everyday life than Christians because they’re much more likely to empower them into society via politics. They’re called left-wingers!

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  54. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    wat you’re a fool so I won’t be engaging further with you over this, it’s just casting pearls before a particularly stupid pig so why waste my time, but since I’m religious I deeply care for you spiritually and so I would urge you to look at Genesis and read it carefully then google ‘original sin’ and read some of the serious material that this search brings up. I realise you, being a particularly stupid swine probably won’t do this, but I sincerely hope you do, and anyone who reads this part of today’s GD and who similarly doesn’t know this is Satan’s world, don’t be a stupid swine like wat and do some research on it, because once you understand that truth, it makes a lot of things fall into place, about this world and why it is such a complete and utter mess and getting worse on a daily and yearly basis. It’s actually becoming really critical you have this understanding because without it, you’re liable to be subject to increasing calamities and while having this knowledge is background understanding, a religious faith, genuine faith, gives you peace, courage and stability as well, all qualities which everyone is going to increasingly need, as Satan’s work proceeds apace.

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  55. publicwatchdog (1,840 comments) says:

    John Key is a shareholder in the Bank of America.

    That would not be lawful if he were the Prime Minister of Australia.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-12-06/rudd-announces-ministerial-code-of-conduct/979880

    Seen this?

    John Key publicly admits his Bank of America shareholding at a Grey Power public meeting in February 2011.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXwNoaOpDMw

    Remember – when he worked for Merrill Lynch – he was the Head of Derivatives – and at the time the Glass Steagall Act (which kept separate boring safe commercial banking and risky dangerous investment banking) was repealed – November 1999 – John Key was a Foreign Exchange Advisor for the New York Federal Reserve.

    So – what role did shonky John Key play in the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act?

    Why is this important?

    Because the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act helped to leave the dodgy derivatives market completely unregulated.

    Which is the main reason why the world is facing an international financial meltdown?

    Because of the collapse of the dodgy derivatives market – which shonky John Key helped to set up?

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  56. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    tom hunter @122

    In Dublin parlance ” There’s none so pure as a reformed whoer”

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  57. Viking2 (10,736 comments) says:

    Reid (11,252) Says:
    August 4th, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    wat you’re a fool so I won’t be engaging further with you over this, it’s just casting pearls before a particularly stupid pig so why waste my time, but since I’m religious I deeply care for you spiritually and so I would urge you to look at Genesis and read it carefully then google ‘original sin’ and read some of the serious material that this search brings up.
    I realise you, being a particularly stupid swine probably won’t do this,
    but I sincerely hope you do, and anyone who reads this part of today’s GD and who similarly doesn’t know this is Satan’s world, don’t be a stupid swine like wat

    Well that’s ” nioce Christian ” way to speak. No wonder you religous nutters don’t endear yourselves to anyone.

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  58. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    V2, I use different approaches with different people. Over time I’ve realised wat is a particularly obdurate individual who like many non-religious people claims to understand a great deal about it. Frankly I wasn’t writing for him I was writing for others who might have read the preceding post for I knew that wat was unlikely to take up anything I said, which is why I started that post off with the casting pearls before swine analogy and simply carried it on in the bit you highlighted.

    While I realise as a religious person I should make myself more endearing after all that’s a strong part of Paul’s advice to the early churches in the Epistles, sometimes many of the people on this blog are so extraordinarily arrogant and ignorant in their anti-Christian perspectives, I just can’t be bothered. But please don’t take me as an example, I think people like Lucia, Andrei and Fletch are much better role models than I, in the politeness area.

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  59. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    please list the scientific discoveries that have come about due to religion.

    I doubt it’s an extensive list, but I can start you with the need to calculate the date of Easter which lead to an understanding of how the sun and moon influenced seasons and tides.

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  60. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    The State Department has an office that hunts German war criminals. Bureaucracies being what they are, the office will exist into next century when any surviving German prison guards will be 200 years old. From time to time the State Department claims to have found a lowly German soldier who was assigned as a prison camp guard. The ancient personage, who had lived in the US for the past 50 or 60 years without doing harm to anyone, is then merciless persecuted, usually on the basis of hearsay. I have never understood what the State Department thinks the alleged prison guard was supposed to have done–freed the prisoners, resign his position?–when Prussian aristocrats, high-ranking German Army generals and Field Marshall and national hero Erwin Rommel were murdered for trying to overthrow Hitler.

    What the State Department needs is an office that rounds up American war criminals.

    They are in abundance and not hard to find. Indeed, recently 56 of them made themselves public by signing a letter to President Obama demanding that he send in the US Army to complete the destruction of Syria and its people that Washington has begun.

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  61. BlueGriffon (204 comments) says:

    The Chil-Fil-A abuser has a heartfelt apology:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmP9Shki6_I&feature=plcp

    Millions of views of his abuse, only 34 views on his apology. Why did he think posting his abuse on the internet would not have the consequences it did.

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  62. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    The Chik-Fil-A abuser has a heartfelt apology:

    Wow. That’s really interesting, on lots of levels. Thanks BlueGriffon. How did you find it, out of interest? (I couldn’t see a ref above.)

    But look, this is an e.g. is it not, of the instant power of social media. I assume when he posted it, they just tracked it back, found his employer, spread it round, wham.

    Crikey.

    Now this guy, an ex-CFO, might be applying for a job at Chik-Fil-A. Poor bastard. I feel sorry for him. Who knew.

    But look at his video, and at 4:00 mins in, you find the typical lefty arrogant wankfest that just makes these people (lefties) just the absolute scum they all in fact truly in reality actually are. The absolute certainty with no hesitation and no doubt that they, yes they, are on the right side of humanity on this issue (and many others) and that FACT (in their minds), my friend, justifies every possible tactic because it’s the cause, and the cause is righteous, and true, and just, and every fucking thing else that’s wonderful and super so that means we, yes we, can do whatever the fuck we like, 24/7/365, so there. That attitude is right there on the video and it’s also right there on every supercilious lefty whenever they open their mouths about anything. The Gweens can’t stop doing it, they are so self-righteous it’s not funny. Look at Gaweth Hughes, he’s their supercilious poster boy.

    It’s completely mental, isn’t it.

    Yet this is merely S.O.P. for your average walking, talking, alive and functioning lefty, isn’t it. They ALL think like this and they do it ALL the time.

    If I wasn’t a Christian I’d have learned all these damned lefties a long long time ago but I am so I’m not allowed to and it’s not fair. Blast it all.

    The worst part about it is, on this issue, we’ve got one or two conservatives who are starting to think like lefties as well, like DPF, Whale, John Key and a few others in Parliament (although whether they’re just sycophantically following Key or whether their own minds are doing this, is anyone’s guess). It’s like Ebola isn’t it.

    What are we going to do?

    I vote for let’s all make a video, in favour of marriage, where we all stand around in a big circle on a cliff somewhere holding hands while a plane flies over, lustily singing some moving song, while a few gays stand around outside the circle, clearly not welcome, but not looking as if they’re all persecuted, either. (We can persecute them once the planes flown over and it’s in the can, if anyone wants to.)

    Does anyone have any better ideas?

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  63. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    So they had a ‘gay kiss in” at the Chick-Fil-A in Hollywood today.
    All about ‘equality’ and ‘love’.

    Oh wait, no….
    This picture says it all.
    http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/463934_480922305251377_1644332046_o.jpg

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  64. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    O A
    One look at that nanderthal says it all.

    It is easy to express your views ,offensive that they are in a great democracy like the USA where ,thankfully that right is held so highly and guarded so jealousy.

    I might manage to admire the guy if he booked a flight to Saudi or Persia and wandered around in a shirt saying ” Mo is a cnut” ,that would be brave,as it stands the neanderthal is simply an offensive yoik.

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  65. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    He is an offensive, intolerant piece of sh1t kowtow, trying to provoke people.
    Saying that, I also defend his right to wear that rag.
    It’s ‘funny’ though.
    Those people would call you a bigot, racist, fascist, homophobe etc. for daring to question the need for ‘gay marriage’.
    Irony doesn’t even start to describe it.
    Call them out on it and you find most of them are too thick to understand it anyway.

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  66. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    kowtow (2,419) Says:
    August 4th, 2012 at 4:30 pm

    I might manage to admire the guy if he booked a flight to Saudi or Persia and wandered around in a shirt saying ” Mo is a cnut” ,that would be brave,…

    Then I take it you have signed the petition to free Alex Aan? No, thought not. He didn’t even say “mo is a cunt”, he just said there is no god.

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  67. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    reid – …look at Genesis and read it carefully …

    I did.

    And I found that apparently Adam and Eve disobeyed god, but since they hadn’t, prior to “eating the apple”, have any knowledge of good or evil, how could that have possibly known that disobedience was wrong?

    You’ve obviously never had children.

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  68. thedavincimode (6,130 comments) says:

    So, what about this G** business? Arguments for?? Against??

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  69. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    Freedom alert Olympics.

    So it’s legal to be in the party and even in legislatures in Germany but that’s not good enough for the Olympics.And while she volunteered to go home ,one feels a Tui billboard moment.
    Germany really needs to get over it’s admittedly ugly past.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-rower-drygalla-leaves-olympics-due-to-suspected-neo-nazi-ties-a-848042.html

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  70. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    I wonder how well this is supported in the Green Party:

    Greens would support military intervention in Syria

    The Green Party says New Zealand should vote for military intervention in Syria at the United Nation if the fighting there reaches the point where crimes against humanity are being committed.

    Green MP Kennedy Graham, who met Syrian refugees six weeks ago in camps near the border with Jordan, says the General Assembly should pass economic sanctions on Syria and take military action if the circumstances warrant it.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/112449/greens-would-support-military-intervention-in-syria

    And I wonder if they support a quick hit, or an occupation for a few years.

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  71. mikenmild (8,892 comments) says:

    DVM
    ‘God’ is a human construct used by those who have not yet accepted the reality of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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  72. thedavincimode (6,130 comments) says:

    I’ll out that down as a nyetski. I thought it was to explain the residential property market. Or is that the devil?? I’m confused.

    Any ayes??

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  73. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Green MP Kennedy Graham, who met Syrian refugees six weeks ago in camps near the border with Jordan, says the General Assembly should pass economic sanctions on Syria and take military action if the circumstances warrant it.

    Perhaps Kennedy should read the linked article in my 2:48 Pete. In fact any useful idiot who thinks what’s been happening in Syria is about “human wights” should read it, as well as about a million other articles, which all point in the same direction. I don’t know about you Pete, but I get really fucking sick of drop dead useful idiot fuckhead morons who don’t understand that just because the western media in their usual lockstep way allege something is the case, that doesn’t, repeat doesn’t, make it so.

    Aren’t they just fucking mental Pete. What’s interesting is that when the western media does this, both sides of the punch and judy western political showcase: i.e. both the liberals and the convervatives, almost all of them, immediately think the same thing. i.e. most people in this country, both left and right, would think Syria is in fact a grassroots uprising of freedom fighters pwotesting the tewwible oppwession of the howendous Assad wegime. Which obviously you and I know don’t we Pete, is complete bollocks of the most monstrous kind imaginable. And yet this is what happens, time after time. This is what happened in Libya, and the useless mental morons haven’t even woken up to what happened in that country yet, let alone the fact they are right now witnessing precisely the exact same modus operandi, in Syria. Like I said Pete, aren’t they just fucking mental.

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  74. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    Hah! I suggested Reid had never had children, he proves me wrong by getting his 3 year old to write the above.

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  75. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Luke, one word: Brzezhinsky.

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  76. Pete George (21,828 comments) says:

    Reid – I don’t really know the details of what’s going in Syria, apart from the fact that it looks very messy. It’s quite possible some of the motivation for change is a genuine democracy movement, but I have no doubt that it’s far more complex than that. Any major conflict has major risks and is certain to have unintended consequences for all sides.

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  77. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    Reid, considering her age and her father, she’s not too shabby. I’d jump her bones.

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  78. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    You cannot talk about genuine democracy in the Arab world. It is a totally alien concept to them.No tradition of it and too deeply mired in Islam.

    Syria is going to be very ugly before a new dictator emerges there.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/christians-flee-from-radical-rebels-in-syria-a-846180.html

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  79. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    … if the fighting there reaches the point where crimes against humanity are being committed.

    If?

    Where have these idiots been, not just in the last few months but the last thirty years?. I guess America and the Jews couldn’t be blamed for that one.

    All the same, I, for one, welcome our new Green, Imperialistic, War-Mongering Overlords and ….

    Green MP Kennedy Graham, …. says the General Assembly should pass economic sanctions on Syria and take military action if the circumstances warrant it.

    … Oh I see! It was all a joke. Well done guys; adding “should” to “if” to “General Assembly” to “military intervention” … equals zero.

    Let me give you a few more key words: “Russia”, “China”, “veto”. But since you’re into the usual public square moral preening – as lefties were with the whole Saddam thing through the 1990′s – why don’t you arrange a few big protests outside their embassies here in NZ. I’m sure John Campbell and company will be there with their TV cameras and bells on. With some effort you might even be able to demonise them as much as the USA and who knows, they might even take notice of you!

    In the meantime, I think most of the right-wing will simply ignore all this, and Syria too. You don’t get 2003 back, assholes. Go stab someone else in the back.

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  80. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    kowtow (2,421) Says:
    August 4th, 2012 at 6:16 pm
    You cannot talk about genuine democracy in the Arab world.

    I seem to remember King John saying something like that about English world circa 1214. They had no tradition of democracy, too deeply mired in Catholicism. Got a bit of a surprise the following year, didn’t he?

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  81. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    And more on that Spring in Syria.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9450587/Muslim-Brotherhood-establishes-militia-inside-Syria.html

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  82. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    Luke muttonfuckingchops “remembers” King John saying something in 1214.

    Go on then ,inform us,give us the benefit of your undoubted wisdom.

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  83. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @kowtow

    “Syria is going to be very ugly before a new dictator emerges there.”

    Yep.
    One bunch of creeps (The religious variety) taking over from another bunch of creeps (The secular variety).
    Filling pockets, move on.
    As always, the plebs are in the middle suffering.
    Welcome to the Middle East.

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  84. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    kowtow, I am not your history teacher, if you don’t know what happened of great import in 1215, go look it up. I know the right have an antipathy to education, but its not necessary to parade your stupidity; it is obvious.

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  85. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    Luke muttonhead

    Magna carta was about the barons rights not democracy as we understand it.You’ve overstreched yourself,arsehole.

    I am a huge supporter of education. Pity it’s done you no good.

    Church very strong on it too.Great tradition there.

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  86. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    kowtow, it was the first step towards curtailing the king’s power and creating a democracy, you fucking moron. At no stage did I say it was the be all and end all, simply that until the first steps are taken, the journey hasn’t begun.

    Sadly your hatred of anything Islamic blinds you to the plight of people who are muslims not by choice, but by history and conquest. I know they won’t free themselves overnight, but I cheer their efforts, while all you can do is snipe from the sidelines and strengthen the hand of the MB.

    I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a picture of you, brick in one hand, trowel in the other, trying to repair the berlin wall.

    What is it you hate about humanity?

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  87. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    One bunch of creeps (The religious variety) taking over from another bunch of creeps (The secular variety).

    Don’t you guys know anything.

    It’s a western/Israel-backed takeover of yet another peaceful country (the previous being Libya) disguised as a grassroots uprising. When they did Libya, the reason was because Gaddaffi had just announced he’d be selling oil in gold dinars instead of US dollars and they couldn’t have that, could they. Do you know what the first act of the provisional govt in Libya was, even before the shooting had stopped? They setup a central reserve bank. The only countries in the world that didn’t have one of those at the time, was Libya, North Korea, Iran and Venezuela. Now there are only three. Now why was this the very first act of the provisional govt. Ask yourself that. Secondly how come the western powers are quite happy, very sanguine, to deal with Al-Qaida forces as they were in Libya and the Muslim Brotherhood? I thought those were terrorists. Der.

    But according to you guys, the thing that’s really important is:

    One bunch of creeps (The religious variety) taking over from another bunch of creeps (The secular variety).
    Filling pockets, move on.
    As always, the plebs are in the middle suffering.

    Well how about waking up and getting what’s really going on in the ME, or is it all a bit too complicated? Like I said before: Brzezhinsky. No, he’s not a woman, Luke.

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  88. Luke Mutton (247 comments) says:

    reid, mate, all this talk about poofs has got you addled.

    She is Hot.Hot.Hot. And Rich.Rich.Rich.

    https://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=925&q=mika+brzezinski&oq=Mika+Brzezinski&gs_l=img.1.0.0l5j0i24l5.1888.1888.0.8377.1.1.0.0.0.0.251.251.2-1.1.0…0.0…1ac.xNFIaOO-vM4

    Then again, I’ve always had a thing for eastern euro women. Ex wife was lithuanian, :-)

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  89. Steve (North Shore) (4,327 comments) says:

    Hey, be quiet, Chiefs v Sharks
    14 -9 Chiefs. Wonder what great finali SGW is going to try and do?

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  90. kowtow (6,720 comments) says:

    muttonfucker

    Who said I hate all things Islamic?
    You seek to attack Christaintiy but appear to defend Islam.
    Then you stand for an atheist against an Islamic state.
    You make anti American comments.

    So instead of being a constant foul mouthed knocker let’s hear what you stand for.

    And it wasn’t a first step. It was very much a milestone though. The first step was in Genesis,that ancient Jewish testament where it says man was created in the image of God, and God’s creation is a good thing.And long before Magna carta the Britons had a history of being freemen voting openly on their issues and then we have the Greek and Roman tradition of law and representation.Thats part of our democratic tradition that the Arabs don’t have….you fucking moron,you’re very good with the base language,arsehole.

    First step indeed. Education pfft.

    You leftists are the ones who seek to attack and destroy the democratic tradition so fuck off with your Brerlin Wall you ignorant shite. And most Muslims freely embrace their religion and are deeply committed to it. You’re hatred is blinding you…..Luke Myopic.

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  91. Andrei (2,431 comments) says:

    Hey Luke feel some inner peace

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  92. Fairfacts Media (370 comments) says:

    Enjoy Pat Condell talk about the Guardian.

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  93. Viking2 (10,736 comments) says:

    Reid (11,258) Says:
    August 4th, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    V2, I use different approaches with different people. Over time I’ve realised wat is a particularly obdurate individual who like many non-religious people claims to understand a great deal about it. Frankly I wasn’t writing for him I was writing for others who might have read the preceding post for I knew that wat was unlikely to take up anything I said, which is why I started that post off with the casting pearls before swine analogy and simply carried it on in the bit you highlighted.

    While I realise as a religious person I should make myself more endearing after all that’s a strong part of Paul’s advice to the early churches in the Epistles,

    sometimes many of the people on this blog are so extraordinarily arrogant and ignorant in their anti-Christian perspectives, I just can’t be bothered.
    But please don’t take me as an example, I think people like Lucia, Andrei and Fletch are much better role models than I, in the politeness area.

    You mean just like many of those you have mentioned. The fact that you all come here to contually berate the rest of the Kiwiblog contributors and fill the blog with your rants and attacks on others who disagree actually points out who the arrogant are. We can do without you and as always you are welcome to join other erstwhile people with their strident views, people like Red, and start your own blogs.

    Its actually very simple to do, cost next to nothing and would remove all the rubbish the rest of us have to wade thru. You could even take Penny the water buffalo with you. We wouldn’t mind at all.
    Now as Steve says, more important things. Rugby to watch.

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  94. nasska (9,549 comments) says:

    An Englishman, a Scotsman and an Irishman were without tickets for the opening ceremonies of the summer Olympics in London but hoped to be able to talk their way in at the gate. Security was very tight, however, and each of their attempts was met with a stern refusal. While wandering around outside the stadium, the Englishman came upon construction site, which gave him an idea. Grabbing a length of scaffolding, he presented himself at the gate and said, “Johnson, the pole vault,” and was admitted.

    The Scotsman, overhearing this, went at once to search the site. When he came up with a sledge hammer, he presented himself at the gate and said, “McTavish, the hammer.” He was also admitted.

    The Irishman combed the site for an hour and was nearly ready to give up when he spotted his ticket in. Seizing a roll of barbed wire, he presented himself at the gate and announced, “Paddy Murphy, fencing.”

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  95. big bruv (12,380 comments) says:

    “Welcome to the Middle East.”

    Is that the same Middle East that gave birth to the sky fairy con?

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  96. Sofia (784 comments) says:

    [Craig] also said it wasn’t “intelligent to pretend that homosexual relationships are normal”.

    Which is exactly why gay people want to marry, because marriage IS a sign of acceptance and normality.
    In his beginning is his end – so to speak

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  97. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @BB

    You sound like someone suffering from Pure-O.
    Get some help.
    Honestly.

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  98. Viking2 (10,736 comments) says:

    Socialists at work.

    Warning over scalped Super Rugby tickets

    Saturday, 4, Aug, 2012 6:54PM

    Anyone who turns up to the Super Rugby final in Hamilton tonight with a ticket they bought on Trade Me is in for a shock.

    TicketDirect is vowing to crack down on scalping, after sought-after tickets to the sold out clash between the Chiefs and the Sharks were flogged off online for double their value.

    TicketDirect Chief Executive Matthew Davey says under the terms and conditions of the tickets, anyone who bought them agreed that their tickets will be void if they were on-sold at an inflated price.

    He says the scalped tickets will be confiscated and their holders will not be allowed into the game.

    Mr Davey adds it’s a real shame to see the blatant greed of some, and the profiteering at the expense of real fans.

    He says having the Major Events Act in play for Super Rugby would help eliminate this practice once and for all.

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  99. Viking2 (10,736 comments) says:

    cheifs 27-6

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  100. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    Syria !!..

    All about as usual.. OIL and GAS !!.. Huge finds in and around Greece.. Israel and Cyprus..

    With Syria and Lebanon unexplored really..

    Who will end up controlling the area .. America ??. Germany ?? Russia ??.. Turkey.. Wall street (read Israel ) ??.

    Go check it out.. Squillions of dollars at stake..

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  101. thedavincimode (6,130 comments) says:

    I thought Steve Walsh had given up the turps???

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  102. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @adam2314

    Wall street (read Israel)….. Uh, those would be the firms supporting Obama?

    You forgot one of the major (new) players in the region, China.

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  103. Viking2 (10,736 comments) says:

    37/6

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  104. Viking2 (10,736 comments) says:

    Fulltime: Chiefs 37 (4 tries, 3 pens, 4 cons) v Sharks 6 (2 pens)

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  105. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    Did not forget China.. They would love to have the oil pumped east.. they are supporting Russia in the UN.. against intervention.. Russia really can say nothing against that.. They supply oil to China..

    BUT !!.. they are not offering money ( oops . Support to go to the Drachma ) as America is ( Tim Geitner ).. as Russia is ( Cyprus )..

    Just check out the visitors from other countries.. To Greece .. Clinton ( Bill ).. ad nauseum ..

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  106. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    Viking.. Bread and circuses :-))))

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  107. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Reid:It’s a western/Israel-backed takeover of yet another peaceful country

    Bollocks. Israel would prefer it if Assad remained in power, just as they would have preferred to see Mubarak remain in power. Do you seriously expect us to believe that they want the MB or salafists running Syria?

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  108. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    chiz..

    It is money.. !!… Assad has been run by Iran.. Time for a change..

    Eygpt has not yet found it’s feet .. they will not go to war..

    Oil will pay for what ever they want..

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  109. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Syria is about Iran. It’s Iran’s last major ally left. Have a look at Iran’s oil fields and they dwarf Iraq’s.

    As I’ve said many times, Iraq was Israel’s public enemy #2, Iran is Israel’s #1.

    There are few if any benefits to the US in getting rid of Iran. There are massive benefits to Israel from using the US’ blood and treasure to do it for her.

    Bush told Israel a number of times he wouldn’t take out Iran (because of what would have happened to the troops then in Iraq). This is what Georgia was about – giving Israel overflight. That’s why Putin stopped it.

    Russia and China both strongly support Iran. Both countries receive major energy from Iran but Russia doesn’t need it, China does. But Russia is not interested in allowing the US hegemony in the ME. It caved on Libya but Putin is hanging tough on Syria. Everything hinges on China. If the US does a deal with China over Syria, then Iran is history, and the ME goes to war. This is because the Arab street regards Iran as holy, and if the US or Israel attacks it, the Arab street erupts. This is why the US has been replacing all the unstable regimes like Egypt and Libya with its own people, so it could control it if it happened.

    The bizarre thing of course is, this is all happening because of Israel, because the US has enough energy reserves to be self-sufficient for a very long time indeed. But no-one seems to realise that in the west, and this may be because all repeat all, of the western media organisations, are run by jews and that’s not anti-semitism, that’s just a fact. Murdoch’s a jew for instance and you know what he runs. Time Warner is run by jews, so is Disney, Viacom and the rest of them. Now not being anti-semitic or anything but the last I heard, jews don’t criticise other jews in front of the goyim, who is us. These are all facts, BTW, so check them out. You may think they’re not very convenient facts, but they’re facts nevertheless. So make your own mind up, and let’s just hope you don’t just mindlessly scream “anti-semitic” without actually looking at whether what I’ve said, is actually, in fact, the case or not.

    Bollocks. Israel would prefer it if Assad remained in power

    So you think Israel enjoyed getting its arse kicked by Hezbollah last time it tried to invade East Lebanon, chiz? Yeah, I guess you’re right. That’s why Olmert was such a popular PM, isn’t it. Because he let the IDF suffer a MASSIVE defeat against the Syrian-backed Hezbollah. Fucken der, chiz.

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  110. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    tom hunter:BINGO!!!

    Normally you’re more intelligent than that tom.

    assuming that the second story was his own

    Neither story was his. The “another story” headers should have been a clue. They were both copied from elsewhere.

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  111. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    Reid…

    You have missed the importance of Cyprus !!..

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  112. chiz (1,095 comments) says:

    Reid: Syria is about Iran. It’s Iran’s last major ally left. Have a look at Iran’s oil fields and they dwarf Iraq’s.

    Iran is a factor, but its oilfields aren’t. Saudi Arabia and Qatar are aiding the syrian rebels because they see this as a way of curbing Iran influence in the region.

    Do you think Israel enjoyed getting its arse kicked by Hezbollah last time it tried to invade East Lebanon, chiz? Yeah, I guess you’re right. That’s why Olmert was such a popular PM, isn’t it. Because he let the IDF suffer a MASSIVE defeat against the Syrian-backed Hezbollah. Fucken der, chiz.

    Hezbollah are Iranian proxies. Fucken der yourself reid.

    Assad, like Mubarak, keeps the borders stable, or moderately so. Any replacement for him would result in a government more sympathetic to Hamas and Israel doesn’t want that. Egypt at least has a military that will uphold the treaties with Israel, and that doesn’t like Hamas, regardless of what Morsi. That won’t be the case in Syria if Assad falls.

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  113. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    You have missed the importance of Cyprus !!..

    adam, Planet X is coming in November adam and nothing matters after that, but I didn’t want to get off-topic.

    Hezbollah are Iranian proxies. Fucken der yourself reid.

    Hezbollah gets major backing and support from Syria chiz. Double-der with cherries on top times infinity plus one.

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  114. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    Hezbollah is Iranian backed .. VIA.. Syria.. Not Syrian backed.. Syria is Iranian backed therefore does as told ..
    Remove the VIA.. Hezbollah are neutered..

    The West will not need Iranian oil when Greece comes onto production.. Direct pipe lines over EU territory..
    Also the EU does not need Iranian oil today ..

    Thank you for not wanting to ” get off topic “..

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  115. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Hezbollah is Iranian backed .. VIA.. Syria.. Not Syrian backed.. Syria is Iranian backed therefore does as told ..
    Remove the VIA.. Hezbollah are neutered..

    Yes the point you seem to have lost adam is, innocent people are being raped, their throats are being slit and both children and adults have been suffering both of those things for at least 18 months now, simply because some extremely cold-blooded people decided to initiate an operation which has nothing to do with a grassroots uprising in the name of democracy albeit in the western media it’s been portrayed as such and therefore, western people have, despite their considerable education, been extraordinarily gullible and simplistic in their understanding as to the actual tragedy which has unfolded before their very eyes over the last 18 or so months.

    That’s really the topic.

    The oil, well, personally, I don’t really give a fuck about it myself. It’s the people that I care about which is why I bother to explain what I do, here and elsewhere. But the oil is the motivator, and people seem to understand things better, if they can relate it to a motive, for some reason.

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  116. hj (5,703 comments) says:

    “The results of the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature are in and Richard Muller, the study’s director (formerly an AGW skeptic) declares, ‘Call me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.’ The study was funded by the Folger Fund, the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, the Fund for Innovative Climate and Energy Research (created by Bill Gates), the Bowes Foundation, the Koch Foundation, and the Getty Foundation.”
    http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/07/29/127235/koch-bros-study-finds-global-warming-is-real-and-man-made

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  117. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Further to my 10:20, my apologies adam, I didn’t mean to personalise it by implying you, personally, had missed the point. Of course you hadn’t. The whole western world has, me included. My apologies.

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  118. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    Ried..
    My original post began..

    Syria !!..

    All about as usual.. OIL and GAS !!..

    I do not need your Faux aplogies..

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  119. adam2314 (377 comments) says:

    apologies.. Tired 4am start..

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  120. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (329 comments) says:

    adam, Planet X is coming in November adam and nothing matters after that, but I didn’t want to get off-topic.

    Holy Krap! We let the gays marry, buy shares in Mighty River Power, have two more changes of Labour Leaders,
    and some fucking great thing called Planet X is to take us all out in bloody November ?
    Is that before, on, or after November 5 ?

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  121. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @hj

    You’ve been had hj.
    Fairfax in Australia reported this and quickly took it off their website when they found out they were duped.
    Muller never was a sceptic.
    “Carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate.” (Richard Muller, 2003).
    “There is a consensus that global warming is real. …it’s going to get much, much worse.” (Richard Muller, 2008).
    He has a vested (Very personal) interest in the AGW scam.
    Richard Muller is a member of the Berkeley Earth Team (Promoters of CAGW) and his daughter Elizabeth Muller is the Founder and Executive Director. On top of this, Elizabeth is also the founder of GreenGov which helps ‘investors profit from investments in alternative energy’.
    He is a charlatan.
    Muller paper didn’t get through the peer review (It was rejected) and was slammed by several scientists and reviewers both for his work and the way he went to the media before the peer review was finished.

    Koch Brothers?
    I thought they were the evil right-wing backers of the sceptics?

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  122. Reid (15,593 comments) says:

    Is that before, on, or after November 5

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  123. Puzzled in Ekatahuna (329 comments) says:

    … but I didn’t want to get off-topic.

    No ?
    You just thought none of us would pick it up, because it’s ‘off topic’
    What were you going to do – just say “Mentioned it a while back – told you so …” after it’s all fucking over ?

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